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Don't Bring Your Drone To New Zealand
NewtonsLaw writes: Personal drones are changing the way some people experience vacations. Instead of toting along a camcorder or a 35mm DSLR, people are starting pack a GoPro and, increasingly, a drone on which to mount it. This is fine if you're going to a drone-friendly country, but be warned that your drone will get you into big trouble in Thailand (where all use of drones by the public is banned outright) and now in New Zealand, where strict new laws regarding the operation of drones (and even tiny toys like the 20g Cheerson CX10) come into effect on August 1.
Under these new rules, nobody can operate a drone or model aircraft without getting the prior consent of the owner over which property it is intended to fly — and (this is the kicker) also the permission of the occupiers of that property. So you can effectively forget about flying down at the local park, at scenic locations or just about any public place. Even if you could manage to get the prior permission of the land-owner, because we're talking "public place," you'd also have to get the permission of anyone and everyone who was also in the area where you intended to fly.
Other countries have produced far more sane regulations — such as limiting drone and RC model operators to flying no closer than 30m from people or buildings — but New Zealand's CAA have gone right over the top and imposed what amounts to a virtual death-sentence on a hobby that has provided endless, safe fun for people of all ages for more than 50 years. Of course if you are prepared to pay a $600 fee to become "Certified" by CAA then the restrictions on where you can fly are lifted and you don't need those permissions.
Under these new rules, nobody can operate a drone or model aircraft without getting the prior consent of the owner over which property it is intended to fly — and (this is the kicker) also the permission of the occupiers of that property. So you can effectively forget about flying down at the local park, at scenic locations or just about any public place. Even if you could manage to get the prior permission of the land-owner, because we're talking "public place," you'd also have to get the permission of anyone and everyone who was also in the area where you intended to fly.
Other countries have produced far more sane regulations — such as limiting drone and RC model operators to flying no closer than 30m from people or buildings — but New Zealand's CAA have gone right over the top and imposed what amounts to a virtual death-sentence on a hobby that has provided endless, safe fun for people of all ages for more than 50 years. Of course if you are prepared to pay a $600 fee to become "Certified" by CAA then the restrictions on where you can fly are lifted and you don't need those permissions.
You guys are fucked. Enjoy your draconian regulations.
I swear I didn't bring it. It flew there itself.
I'm by now means an expert, but I was of the understanding NZ already had some pretty draconian legislation with regards to model aircraft flying, to the extent that it's effectively restricted to LoS, by licensed amateurs (or those under the supervision of) at designated airfields.
If this is the case, then these "new" drone rules are not exactly unexpected.
Good. This is a good balance of privacy. I don't want to be filmed in hi definition when I am outside. Get my permission AND the permission of the property owners and you can. If you can't, then do it on YOUR property.
I do own 4 quadcopters, 3 airplanes and 2 hrlicopters (all RC of course) but I do agree with very strong regulations.
There are too many idiots and pitbull owners out there who are anxious to hit innocent people if they are allowed to.
Very good, Thailand, that is the only way to go.
NewtonsLaw makes no secret of being a drone enthusiast, but pretending that nobody was ever injured or property damaged by a drone is just ludicrous.
Oh, cry me a river. Drone operators no longer have an unlimited right to invade people's privacy and endanger their safety. Sorry dude, but the airspace is common property and it's sensible to regulate its use for the common good. Either that, or we can have drone wars, where people who don't want your drones in the skies fly their own to take them down.
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You cannot wash away blood with blood
Man a ban on tourist video drones would be terrible for sightseeing.
Thank god New Zealand doesn't have much pretty scenery.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
How is it not sane to think that the people who could be potentially hit by your craft would have something to say about it flying over them?
I find this a perfectly reasonable law. Don't forget it means that could could fly on private property NEXT to the public property and film from there, as long as you are not directly over the public area...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I like the new rules. I would also like to be allowed to disable any drones that invade my privacy.
Going to a foreign country to visit and having a drone flying over your head... Really? Always finding new ways to display an astonishing lack of class.
love is just extroverted narcissism
I have been flying quad copters for about 3 months now before that i spend 2 years doing RC planes and the basic rules of do not fly above people or private property make complete sense to me.
The problem is that drones are now easier to make and fly then ever before and idiots who never flown a RC quad in their life buy one and go flying out of line of sight with those things the moment they get them.
For them the entire appeal of the hobby is camera's and "spying" on people and those assholes ruin something fun for everybody
Seriously, the drone craze is going way overboard. Joe-nobody doesn't need a drone to take pictures and videos, to put on his instagram. Keep the drones in the hands of professionals(emergency first response) and people who actually need them for their jobs, like movie studios and real estate agent.
I'm pissed of me having to have the drapes closed on my upstairs windows because a dick of a neighbor like to fly around and see if he can find something sordid of "funny" on his camera. The girls in the neighborhood cant sunbathe nude/topples in their own backyards any more either. We have complained and called the cops but it seems he is well within his right. :-/
Just ask Bruce Simpson (aka "RC Model Reviews" on YouTube) what it's like to deal with the old men (ie. assholes) in charge in NZ.
Waddya gonna do?
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
I think this is a good move. Make people take some basic safety classes and tests and pay a fee to become certified. Pull their certification if they are jerks or are operating unsafely. People that are serious about the hobby are usually the people that are polite, careful, etc, and they are the people willing to put in the effort to get licensed. People that are serious about flying drones are usually the people most annoyed by the crazies that are doing things recklessly and ruining the hobby for everyone else.
Just because I can hook a shark from a boat, I do no offer to wrestle it in the water.
It just means that you will need to fly them on private land.
I have an RC aircraft habit myself and that's what I do, fly on private land. I suppose I could use the street in front of my house, but it's kind of dangerous and noisy so I don't think my neighbors would appreciate it so I joined a club. The club I'm in has agreement with a private land owner and we fly on their property. The hobby will not die, it will just be relegated to private property.
I understand why people are upset, but let's face it, the crazies among us who insist on flying their drones in places they shouldn't have, taking pictures of things they shouldn't have and being irresponsible in general have made this necessary. Don't blame the government, blame the crazies that make this necessary for privacy and safety.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
The mainstream public is a bit ridiculous when it comes to drones - they think they're so important that another person would waste their time and spy on them using a drone. First off, you're not that important, get over yourself. Second, do you have any idea what kind of footage a drone would have at 100 ft away? Keep in mind that while it's high-def, there's no zoom. A drone would need to be 10 ft away to get a clear image of your face.
If you ask these same people how they feel about low flying aircraft or someone walking down the street with a mobile phone, you would get a more accepting response. But why? Lower flying planes could carry hundreds of pounds photography gear and could zoom in on your eyebrow lashes. The person walking down the street with a mobile phone could zoom and get some real up-close shots of you while you're in your garden.
Is it possible that the drone flyer is just making a video of the general area or just having fun flying a remote controlled toy?
Would you like this one zipping over your head while trying to enjoy the scenery?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p5uDf9i_Yc
Sounds like a possible money maker for certified pilots, to hire themselves out to tourists by the hour to provide drone tours, either over preset courses or something more freeform. 3D googles included, and you get to keep the footage!
.
Prisencolinensinainciusol. Ol Rait!
They have all those fucking Awks running around there tearing things up and eating people but I can't bring my little ol' drone?
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Yup you tell me that next time you're out flying as a private pilot and a drone tries to hit you. It's already happened to me once. Big sky little plane reasoning doesn't work.
Gotta smash your pretty toys, nerde de merde.
Just avoid private property, or ask permission. See from the city website if the flying over public areas is allowed. Then show a reasonable effort by asking from the people you see and are accessible for asking permission. If somebody protests, stop doing what you're doing.
> If you don't like drones buzzing around you, carry a damn slingshot and a pocket full of rocks! Don't be a crybaby!
Why should I now have to carry and use a slingshot just to keep the privacy I grew up with?
Ban all drones, I say. If it's just good clean fun of flying around, then let's make designated areas where hobbyists can do that. Not where I live.
First bring in a complete ban, then look at making exceptions.
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So, you can fly over other peoples' property, or public property, if you're in an aircraft (which could violate someone's privacy or fall on them), but not if you're not in the aircraft? Is that the point? Does this apply to aircraft which contain passengers but not the pilot? (And if so, what about passengers who could be the pilot but aren't always while they're in the plane?)
I presume larger aircraft get different regulations because they're "better" - either better regulated, or more reliable / less likely to violate peoples privacy, or just more expensive.
Oops, they left out the part where there are designated flying areas for drones and other model aircraft, thereby making this mostly a story that you can't do whatever the hell you want on somebody else's property.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
"people are starting pack"
Culver City and LA here - never seen one except one a co-worker brought in to show off. Never have seen one flying in the wild, ever.
Why should I now have to carry and use a slingshot just to keep the privacy I grew up with?
Ban all drones, I say.
Why should I have to act illegally to retain all the freedoms I grew up with?
Presumably, you also think that kites should be treated the same way?
I'm not sure why anyone would think that given how much less mass they have, and the fact they are almost entirely physically controlled. If a string breaks they flutter to the ground, not plummet.
And baseballs, footballs, soccer balls?
These objects basically hug the ground and don't have the ability to rapidly change course, nor are they generally operating at speeds that can cause much harm. Note however that baseballs ARE dangerous enough that people batting generally confine themselves to specific areas for that purpose, because they could in fact hurt someone.
When's the last time you saw someone playing baseball (with a bat, not throwing) in the middle of a festival or crowded park? You are basically saying you would do that if given a choice?
If drone operators had 1/10 the common sense the average baseball players had you wouldn't see regulations like this.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
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Other countries have produced far more sane regulations — such as limiting drone and RC model operators to flying no closer than 30m from people or buildings
That's not a 'sane regulation'. It prevents you from flying a palm-sized drone pretty much anywhere in a city.
These are basically the Red Flag Acts of the drone era. Ooh, scary, Ug not like scary thing, Ug must ban!
But, hey, if those countries don't want anything to do with one of the most important industries of the 21st century, doesn't worry me.
"the owner over which property"
It's "over WHOSE property", fucking AMERICAN idiot.
If you're on public land, you don't get an expectation of privacy.
I've often heard this repeated, but is it actually true?
Suppose I'm in a public space (say, a park) having a quiet conversation with someone, and keeping track of passersby: If someone walks up we stop talking.
Does this mean that someone (from the government) with a parabolic mic can eavesdrop on my conversations without a warrant?
Yes. That's exactly what it means (in the US) because that's the line the courts have upheld. There are some exceptions, based on state and local laws, but that's the federal law.
The argument is that it's only what a policeman would hear if he walked up and listened, but in that case we would stop talking.
Who made that argument? I haven't read the arguments in the cases argued before the SCOTUS, but I'd be very surprised if you can point to that argument in the court records. In fact, I suspect the problem is that you didn't realize that "Expectation of privacy" is a legal term used in discussing the fourth amendment to the US Constitution.
I have every expectation of privacy if I take steps to ensure that privacy: looking around to make sure no one can see me, for instance. Does this mean that the police can video-tape the sidewalk from the window of any office building without a warrant?
"I didn't think the cops would see me smoking crack" is not a legitimate argument in a court case. By contrast, "it was illegal for the cops to take the steps they did to get this evidence" is a legitimate argument.
I also note that there's no expectation of privacy *in your home* if you don't have the drapes closed. The implication is that we don't have an expectation of privacy *anywhere*, except in our homes and only if we're concealed.
The implication is that if the cops can see you do it without trespassing, then it can be used as evidence.
Does that sound like a free country?
Yes! What, you think prohibiting stuff makes people more free?
If you're on public land, you don't get an expectation of privacy.
In any event, we shouldn't be mindlessly repeating that meme as if it's the "law of the land". The more you say it, it only makes more people believe it.
Instead, we should be mindlessly repeating things things that sway public perception in a better direction.
Maybe repeating anything mindlessly is a bad idea. Maybe read about what expectation of privacy is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... so you don't have to come across as mindless.
If you fly a drone over my property, we get to find out how effective the various loads of 12 gauge shot shells are.
> Why should I have to act illegally to retain all the freedoms I grew up with?
What we grew up with (i.e. how the world was until a few years ago) was that a very small number of hobbyists would buy these expensive things. They'd practise, they'd be very careful with their expensive toys, and they flew for the fun of flying rather than peeping (their RCs had no camera). The only ones I saw were in a certain part of the same park every Sunday.
That's what existed when we were growing up, and to preserve that we just have to create a few designated fly places.
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That's ridiculous, and shows you don't actually know what these are. 99.999% of the tens of thousands of daily quad flights are for 'good clean fun'.
There are bad apples with every single technology - are you going to propose we 'ban all uses of computers, then start to make exceptions'? Do you want to 'ban all uses of cellphones, then start to make exceptions'?
Give me a break.
[DISCLAIMER: This post is a work of satire and should not be misconstrued as a holy text upon which to base a religion.]
We should try this. For Science!
"We do what we must, because we can, for the good of all of us; except the ones who are dead."
Things that are different should be considered separately.
It's true that there are plenty of hobbyists who like good clean fun, but that doesn't mean every new drone owner can do whatever they like. Drones are becoming a pest, so we should think of how to limit them so they're not a pest (a broad ban) and then we should think of how to allow the good clean fun hobbyists (exceptions such as designated fly areas, drone clubs, certification which involves training and can be revoked for breaches of safety and ethics rules).
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Where have you personally observed them 'being a pest'? I want to hear your experiences, which will lend credibility to your kneejerk reactions; don't just point to yawn-worthy "news" stories.
[DISCLAIMER: This post is a work of satire and should not be misconstrued as a holy text upon which to base a religion.]
Forget GP's anecdotes, I want data! That might lend credence to their statement.
Where have you personally observed them 'being a pest'?
I've never been attacked by a lion. May I have an opinion on whether people in my city should be allowed keep lions as pets?
Also, putting regulations in place is easier before a practice becomes commonplace. There are no nuclear power plants in Ireland. Is banning them when they don't exist ok? Or should the government let companies build a load of nuclear plants before thinking of whether they're a good idea?
Keep in mind that I'm for a blanket ban *with exceptions*. I.e. putting limits on what drone owners can do. If the things I propose banning (such as peeping, tracking, stalking, harassing) aren't happening, then why do you oppose the banning those things?
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Their law may be annoying and inconvenient but it is far from stupid or insane if it gives the NZ CAA more money and power.
It may be a bastard move, but they are smart bastards.
Furthermore there is nothing to stop a club from flying drones on private land and have everyone sign a consent form on entry onto the property, therefore the bit about killing off a hobby is a load of hysterical hyperbole.
Your final paragraph is contradictory. You started off saying you want a full ban, with a permissive list of uses; then you suggesting I wasn't agreeing with your opinion on making a restrictive list of things to not do. You should know that these two scenarios are very different.
Anyway, I'm not suggesting that I oppose the banning of "peeping, tracking, stalking, and harassing", it's just that those things are ALREADY illegal in most jurisdictions, making additional "because drone" legislation overkill, and likely overreach (because modern lawmaking is never only about the issue at hand anymore). There's not much that's illegal with a handheld camera that isn't presently illegal with a quadcopter.
[DISCLAIMER: This post is a work of satire and should not be misconstrued as a holy text upon which to base a religion.]
Best news I've heard today.
Tossers who think they can fly drones around and film anything they want: 0
Actual people: 1
Epic win.
How can you have a "far more sane" regulation than one that requires permission from all of the subject models and property?
Go NZ!
Here here!
> Your final paragraph is contradictory.
No. Peeping etc. are just examples of what I'd be aiming to prevent with such rules.
> "because drone" legislation overkill
I live in an apartment block. Directly in front of me is a busy road and on the other side is another apartment block. This is the wrong place for someone to have fun with a drone. It's all cars, pedestrians, and apartments. Anyone flying a drone over the road in front of my apartment is either unsafe and/or is targeting people in some way.
Laws against peeping etc. are hard to enforce. Proof is a nightmare. But a blanket ban of flying drones on or above the busy street in front of my apartment is much easier to enforce.
Making a specific law is also sometimes beneficial because by being clear about what's not allowed, you can avoid people doing illegal stuff either because they didn't understand or because they thought no one could prove they were peeping/harassing/etc. If you say "No drones", then it's clear. Better to prevent the crime than to (try to) solve it.
> handheld camera
The two technologies are abviously different. Handheld cameras don't fly in front of people's apartment windows (privacy) and don't fly over people's heads or over roads where they can cause an accident (safety). Handheld cameras are also easily traceable to their operator. This makes enforcing peeping laws etc. more practical, and it means social norms regulate much bad usage (people don't stand in front of houses filming through the window).
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Much of the NZ airspace management has been privatized by the NZ government. A private corporation usually makes $$$ through these user fees. As a result of this expansion of regulation and user fees, the last 15 years has seen a destruction of a once-vibrant general aviation culture in NZ. Regulations and user-fees make it too expensive, and too much of a hassle, for most private individuals to fly a light aircraft there.
It seems-to-me perfectly consistent with the current user-fee regime in NZ to crush RC and drone hobbyists under similar regulation and user fees. The NZ CAA and its private corporate partner are continually hungry for more $$$. The CAA $600 RC "certification " fee sounds like it could be just the start.
U.S. hobbyists take note. User fees are being pitched every time the FAA is re-authorizated, and will likely lead to the same conclusion in the U.S. if allowed to be imposed. Under user fees, only well-heeled well-connected commercial operators will be able to use the skies -- no hobbyists or personal use: light aircraft, RCs, and "drones" alike.
The timing and purpose of this ban seems rather draconian, even for New Zealand. I mean, they pretty much just nuked any future independent movies from being filmed there, because it's going to be ridiculously expensive to secure permission to fly camera drones over public parklands. (You either close the park to the public, or get permission from everyone visiting on that particular day.) I suppose if they have the big bucks for a helicopter, that'll still be open.
But like I said, this seems ridiculously excessive. It makes no sense! It's a small, easily handled problem, and they just hit it with a pile driver.
Or...is it really such a "small" problem? I guess the interpretation of how small it is, depends greatly on how much money you paid for your ultra-secret air-strip in the middle of nowhere.
That's not Alex Jones or some other wooby-woo-woo-alien-Elvis-JFK-love-triangle website, that's The Guardian.
I imagine someone who paid $20 million dollars to have a D7 Caterpillar flown 50 miles into the middle of nowhere and carve out a secret airstrip would be pretty upset if some weekend drone pilot with a backpack and a mountain bike spoiled their little secret.
[End Of Line]
First and easy to miss given the title, Part 101 applies to UAVs (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles, under 25kg) and RPAs (Remotely Piloted Aircraft, over 25kg). Drones just happen to be the currently trendy version, but it applies to all sorts of model aircraft. It's also not new - this has been in the works for months so those interested in it shouldn't be particularly surprised.
Second, the "license" (Part 102) is an Unmanned Aircraft Operator Certificate and in addition to the fee requires applicants to "provid[e] evidence they have conducted adequate risk assessment and developed a risk management plan." This does not strike me as all that unreasonable.
Organized flying on private land is still perfectly viable (e.g. a flying meet - it's private land, if someone shows up who doesn't want UAVs around, the owner/organizer can request/require that they leave the private land). Casual flying in public parks, etc. becomes more of a problem, but serious flyers who've bought or built good rigs are also more likely to be folks who can pony up for the Part 102 license. Links to a bunch more information and the actual CAA rules are here: https://www.airshare.co.nz/rul...
fencepost
just a little off
Of course if you are prepared to pay a $600 fee to become "Certified" by CAA then the restrictions on where you can fly are lifted and you don't need those permissions.
Ahhhhh, that explains it. Corollary to Hanlon's razor Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by greed.
Dude! You're a fuckin' Nazi! If you ban mine, you better ban the goddamn cops and government from having them too. No, as a matter of fact, fuck you! Put on some damn sunglasses and a ball cap and shut the fuck up! Really, just shut up. Next you will be banning all cameras. You people are dangerous.
"Other countries have produced far more sane regulations"
Thats a big call. I work full time in the drone industry, and it seems to me these are the most sane laws of any country I'm aware of right now.
As an expat kiwi myself, I can predict with some confidence that permission, with certain conditions, will be given to everyone for all public areas. And those conditions will be a good compromise between the drone operator and other users of public land.
And it also means you can basically do whatever you want, with permission, on private land.
How exactly is this 'insane'? For all its pros and cons, New Zealand generally has the most sane laws and regulations I have experienced in the countries I have lived in (living in the US right now, trying to deal with the FAA... what was that about sanity?)
I am glad that the New Zealand CAA did NOT go over the top. Well done to the CAA. The future most likely will consist of bees not being chopped in two and seeds falling from trees not being chopped into two or more pieces. Kindest regards from JONATHAN DEAN MACKENZIE.
If the things I propose banning (such as peeping, tracking, stalking, harassing)
Don't most places already have laws against those things? Do we really need to pass new laws that include the text of the old ones with the phrase "using a drone" tacked on the end?
then why do you oppose the banning those things?
Because the abuses of the few shouldn't cause a restriction on the freedoms of the many.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
It is always wrong to ban the tool over the activity.
The vast majority of the debate on quadcopters is the camera, so it's really not that different from a DSLR or smartphone camera.
> People don't stand in front of houses filming through the window.
Do you not know about 'Peeping Tom' laws? That shit was going on decades, if not centuries, before the first quadcopter was developed.
Bottom line: There is nothing novel about cameras on quadcopters, from a legal standpoint. Ill intent is already against the law. We do not need overarching legislation.
I really hope you're not in the US... your sentiments are the complete opposite of how the country should operate.
[DISCLAIMER: This post is a work of satire and should not be misconstrued as a holy text upon which to base a religion.]
> Don't most places already have laws against those things?
I live in an apartment block. Facing me is another apartment block and between the two buildings there's a busy footpath, then a busy road, and another busy footpath. Nothing else. If someone loses control of an RC, there's an unacceptable chance of injury and could include causing a car crash.
Anyone who flys a drone over so many people is either an idiot who doesn't understand safety, or they know it's unsafe but they specifically want to be near people.
In terms of convicting someone of illegal drone use, you're right that anti-harassment could be tried. Problem is that they might or mightn't work, you might have a hard time proving it, and the case could take years. If you want to prevent the incident, it's better to have a clear law "No drones here".
> Because the abuses of the few shouldn't cause a restriction on the
> freedoms of the many.
Drone are used by only a small group, so we're talking about restricting a small group to safeguard the safety and privacy of the many.
Further, drones as a good clean fun hobby can be played with in designated areas (not over the busy road in front of my apartment window).
(Unrelated note: I see we have a "-1 Disagree but can't say why" mod in the room. My comments, including ones that never got up-modded, are getting "-1 Overrated".)
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The vast majority of the debate on quadcopters is the camera, so it's really not that different from a DSLR or smartphone camera.
They're completely different, as I explained, they go in different places, one can have no visible link to its controller.
> People don't stand in front of houses filming through the window.
Do you not know about 'Peeping Tom' laws?
They're good laws, and they're one deterrent. Another deterrent is that standing in front of someone's house filming through the window is socially frowned on. With drones, it can be hard to find the operator, so the peeping tom laws might prove unenforceable in a given case, and the operator doesn't have to stand where the camera is, so the social aspects are no deterrent.
If people enjoy flying, then let's make designated places where they can do that. Not over footpaths, roads, people's gardens or near to apartments and houses.
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I finally figured out why you're such a bootlicker! You're from the UK.
That explains why you default to sucking shoelaces instead of having a spine. The use of "footpath" kinda gave it away.
There are already designated places to fly: Public spaces and private areas that operators own or have permission. There are already guidelines on how not to fly recklessly, not to mention the general "Don't be a dick" rule of life.
Sure, there are people who violate that, but they don't need a quadcopter to do it. Again, there is nothing novel about a quadcopter over any other piece of technology that it needs special legislation. I can set a remote shutter for a camera in a tree. I can use a telephoto lens. I could set up an IP camera with 3G access purchased anonymously. There are tons of ways I could act like an asshole without anyone knowing it was me.
Stay in your house if you are so afraid of people and let the rest of society enjoy the freedom of choice.
[DISCLAIMER: This post is a work of satire and should not be misconstrued as a holy text upon which to base a religion.]
But you've already admitted that you've not experienced anyone who has flown over this busy road or busy footpath. So maybe you should give operators (as a whole) a little more credit to their intelligence?
There will always be stupid people in this life that go outside the norms, but you can't damn the entire group or the tool itself. Technology has no will of its own.
Do you not have hobbies? How would you feel if someone wanted to arbitrarily restrict them?
[DISCLAIMER: This post is a work of satire and should not be misconstrued as a holy text upon which to base a religion.]
If you don't want to fly a drone over a busy street between two apartment blocks, how is my proposal a restriction?
> Do you not have hobbies? How would you feel if someone wanted to arbitrarily restrict them?
One of my hobbies is sitting at my open window getting some sun. Yes, I would be annoyed if I couldn't do this in peace because people were allowed fly camera drones in front of my window. And I bet women would be much more annoyed than I would be.
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There are already designated places to fly: Public spaces and private areas that operators own or have permission.
Great. So people who enjoy flying drones can go there. There's no need to declare the whole city a designated fly zone.
"Don't be a dick" rule of life. Sure, there are people who violate that
And what happens? Nothing. You like asking for examples: have you an example of anti-harassement or peeping tom laws being succesfully used against people who are just being a dick with a drone? I'm guessing the case would have to be either extreme or very very clear and the annoyed person would have to have gotten lucky in finding the operator, and the person would have to have enough spare time and energy to want to go through a court case. That's not reliable.
there is nothing novel about a quadcopter over any other piece of technology
Of course there is. The combination is new and greatly changes the risk level and how effective the old laws are.
That's like saying we should have no laws about computer networks because networks are just pieces of plastic and metal. "Stop blocking my freedom to use plastics!"
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I live in an apartment block. Facing me is another apartment block and between the two buildings there's a busy footpath, then a busy road, and another busy footpath. Nothing else. If someone loses control of an RC, there's an unacceptable chance of injury and could include causing a car crash.
If someone's flying there, they deserve to have their equipment confiscated by the police and to be charged with a crime with "endangerment" or "negligence" in its name. I agree that it makes sense to restrict allowed flight areas to places that don't have heavy pedestrian or vehicular traffic, the same way that I think it makes sense to have posted "no parking" signs. "No hobby aircraft here" makes more sense to me than "No hobby aircraft, period".
Drone[s] are used by only a small group, so we're talking about restricting a small group to safeguard the safety and privacy of the many.
We're talking about restricting a small group (RC aircraft pilots) for the bad behavior of a much, much smaller group (negligent/irresponsible/criminal RC aircraft pilots). The behavior is what I'm opposed to, not the technology...so why would I want a blanket ban on the technology, rather than the behavior?
In terms of convicting someone of illegal drone use, you're right that anti-harassment could be tried. Problem is that they might or mightn't work, you might have a hard time proving it, and the case could take years. If you want to prevent the incident, it's better to have a clear law "No drones here".
In a perfect world, all crimes would be both simple and easy to prove, and criminals would get what they deserve. I don't believe in outright banning something because a small fraction of its users abuse it. I feel that on the balance, the loss due to the reduced freedom of action of the responsible users is greater than the gain of preventing an already rare occurrence.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
... but New Zealand's CAA have gone right over the top and imposed what amounts to a virtual death-sentence on a hobby that has provided endless, safe fun for people of all ages for more than 50 years.
Drone pilots should be subject to the same restrictions as flying model aircraft pilots.
FMA pilots have to be certifiied. FMA pilots have to pay Public Liability Insurance as part of their aeroclub membership. Interesting fact: the Public Liability Insurance is the *MAJORITY* of aeroclub membership costs, often more than 80%! The Public Liability Insurance only covers them for FMA operations at registered FMA fields. Sure, you can be a cowboy and go flying at the local park or a gliding slope by a road... but your insurance isn't going to cover you. There isn't a weekend goes by that an FMA pilot somewhere isn't having their finger sliced open or even sliced off. Or worse.
Five minutes Googling will find you plenty of news articles about people (usually *not* the pilots) getting killed by flying model planes and helicopters:
You're being completely disingenuous by implying that piloting flying model aircraft, and by extensions drones, is a safe hobby. It's far from safe.
I mean, you can't fly it over my home without my permission - unless you pay the government 600 bucks.
This is consistent with what friends in NZ tell me about how the government there operates.
Now I see the root issue that's causing you to act this way ... delusion.
Nobody is going to fly a camera in front of your window to look at you.
You're not that important.
Open your window, get some sun. Try not to have a heart attack if you hear a buzzing sound outside; it's more likely to be a weedwacker than a quadcopter.
[DISCLAIMER: This post is a work of satire and should not be misconstrued as a holy text upon which to base a religion.]
Great. So people who enjoy flying drones can go there. There's no need to declare the whole city a designated fly zone.
They do. You do realize that "public spaces" generally encompass all outside areas that aren't private property. Public. In other words, the vast majority of "the whole city". So thanks for your approval!
"Don't be a dick" rule of life. Sure, there are people who violate that
And what happens? Nothing.
Yeah, sometimes that happens. I can give you tons of examples of people being dicks that end up with no legal or social repercussions, and somehow life goes on.
You can't fix everything, especially with arbitrary laws; you only end up hurting the good folks. There's an certain level of risk that you inherently accept when you live in a first-world society.
[DISCLAIMER: This post is a work of satire and should not be misconstrued as a holy text upon which to base a religion.]
Nuclear plants are a rather odd and amusing choice for an example. The dislike and campaign against nuclear power has pushed the world towards more use of coal and oil plants - and this has indirectly killed an extra 5 to 10 million people globally since the 1970's. In the UK alone the campaign against nuclear power has killed something like 100,000 people, in the US its something like 500,000 or more..
The same kind of thinking is why drugs like Marijuana and heroine are illegal while nicotine and alcohol are legal.. In the UK alcohol kills 10,000 to 20,000 a year and cigarettes kill 100,000 a year.
As for your argument with lions - you can buy a large dog - you can buy a large kitchen knife - you can buy a chainsaw - in the UK all without a licence.. Chainsaws are insanely dangerous compared to most drones, one slip with a chainsaw and you can lose an arm or leg or kill yourself. The real threat with drones is the ability to spy on people, or to annoy them. Attacking people with a drone already is a crime. Drones are a real threat - if fitted with a bomb or other (lethal) weapon - but in that case are already definitely illegal.
Below the speed of light Special Relativity is one of the most accurate theories in physics - above the speed of light..
I can't wait to see what happens when the gun control fanatics and the anti-drone fanatics get together after viewing the YouTube of the teenager who had a handgun mounted on a drone and fired it. According to news reports, no laws were broken by his actions.
It's not a ban, you simply need to get a license. Considering you can seriously injure someone if you get it wrong, I can't see why this is such a big deal.
Do we really need to pass new laws that include the text of the old ones with the phrase "using a drone" tacked on the end?
I think we do. Because drones open a whole new physical dimension that never previously existed.
Because the abuses of the few shouldn't cause a restriction on the freedoms of the many.
Er, yes they should, that is exactly how it should work. Or do you think we wait until 50% of drivers kill someone before we introduce any road rules?
I think we do. Because drones open a whole new physical dimension that never previously existed.
Harassment is harassment. Peeping is peeping. I don't see the point of singling out one particular technology that can be abused. Kind of like how fraud is fraud; I don't think there should be a separate consideration for fraud occurring over phone lines versus data lines versus in-person. The original law should be made broad enough to cover all kinds of fraud to which it's meant to apply; same thing with ways that people can abuse toy helicopters and the like.
Er, yes they should, that is exactly how it should work. Or do you think we wait until 50% of drivers kill someone before we introduce any road rules?
I'd put different thresholds on imaginary privacy issues and safety issues likely to result in death. It's like putting a ban on walkie-talkies in the 90s because you could eavesdrop on cordless phone calls with them, versus issuing citations for not wearing a seatbelt in a car. They aren't really comparable situations. One is rare, of limited scope, and isn't likely to hurt anyone. The other is a preventative action that lowers traffic fatalities.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
. I don't see the point of singling out one particular technology that can be abused.
Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's doesn't exist.
New Technology allows you to do new things in new ways, and hence actions may be against the principal of an existing law, but not captured by it's definition.
You also can't be as vague as saying "No peeping" because that's how people get off with excuses like "I wasn't peeping, I was peeking".
Laws have to be specific otherwise people with good lawyers squirm out of them.
I'd put different thresholds on imaginary privacy issues and safety issues likely to result in death.
And those exist. The penalty for unlicensed drone use is not the same as manslaughter for example. It's like putting a ban on walkie-talkies in the 90s because you could eavesdrop on cordless phone calls with them, versus issuing citations for not wearing a seatbelt in a car. They aren't really comparable situations. One is rare, of limited scope, and isn't likely to hurt anyone. The other is a preventative action that lowers traffic fatalities.
Correct, but laws are generally the thing that keeps this rare, and prevents it becoming a bigger issue.
An example is laser pointers. They were all the rage a few years ago, everyone had them and they became a nuisance. No laws existed against blinding people with lasers because why would you have a law for something that hadn't been invented?
Then a pilot got flashed in the eyes while trying to land a fully loaded airliner so the authorities cracked down and banned them. Now they've almost disappeared from use (still around, but nowhere near the same number).
So the law identified an issue, dealt with it, and created and outcome satisfactory to the rest of society. This is no different.
New Technology allows you to do new things in new ways, and hence actions may be against the principal of an existing law, but not captured by it's definition.
Then it's a shoddily-written law that targets the methods of doing the action, without addressing the action itself. Actions should be punishable; methods should not be, unless there's a special reason to change the punishment based on the method used to perform the action.
You also can't be as vague as saying "No peeping" because that's how people get off with excuses like "I wasn't peeping, I was peeking".
If I were a lawyer, or otherwise versed in the appropriate legal terminology, I would've used it. As it is, I stuck to vernacular English.
And those exist. The penalty for unlicensed drone use is not the same as manslaughter for example
I'm not talking about penalties. I'm talking about a threshold of occurrences before I think something should be done about the problem.
No laws existed against blinding people with lasers because why would you have a law for something that hadn't been invented?
Bullshit; a law exists. Assault and battery would both apply, and possibly aggravated assault, to emphasize the life-changing damage that blinding someone would cause.
so the authorities cracked down and banned them.
That doesn't seem to be true, at least in the U.S. Lasers of various powers are widely available. The change, as I perceive it, is that the novelty value wore off, and most people in society began to recognize that using a dangerous tool as a toy is irresponsible. That being said, I can still go to a pet store and buy a class-1 laser as a cat toy. I can buy a class-3 in a store, marketed for pointing to stars.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Then it's a shoddily-written law that targets the methods of doing the action, without addressing the action itself. Actions should be punishable; methods should not be, unless there's a special reason to change the punishment based on the method used to perform the action.
Like shoddily built old houses and cars, people wrote the best laws they could at the time. When flaws are identified, then isn't the answer to amend and improve them? You're response seems to be just leave it and blame the original law writers for not getting it perfect the first time around.
If I were a lawyer, or otherwise versed in the appropriate legal terminology, I would've used it. As it is, I stuck to vernacular English.
Yeah but the law can't be that vague, which is why it is always changing to catch up with evolving language and technology
I'm not talking about penalties. I'm talking about a threshold of occurrences before I think something should be done about the problem.
You think, what about what I think? Or others think? I'm fine that you have your opinion, but you should also respect that other people have opinions, and your personal experience doe not reflect everyone else's experience on earth.
Drones may not present an issue to you or me right now, but somewhere on the planet I can imagine that they are, and I can also imagine that the popularity of drones is growing extremely fast, so even if not a problem right now, it soon will be (just like Laser pointers when they first hit the market)
Bullshit; a law exists. Assault and battery would both apply, and possibly aggravated assault, to emphasize the life-changing damage that blinding someone would cause.
Assault and battery won't stand up in court without evidence of injury.
The problem with lasers is a lot of damage is done indirectly, ie distraction causing accidents, which is not covered by assault and battery laws. Hence new laws specifically targeted at the new threat, previously impossible with the technology of the day.
That doesn't seem to be true, at least in the U.S. Lasers of various powers are widely available. The change, as I perceive it, is that the novelty value wore off, and most people in society began to recognize that using a dangerous tool as a toy is irresponsible. That being said, I can still go to a pet store and buy a class-1 laser as a cat toy. I can buy a class-3 in a store, marketed for pointing to stars.
Well that's the great thing about the Internet, you get to hear how it is in places that aren't where you're from.
Thanks Slashdot, now I've bought a Cheerson CX10.
Oh well, at least it was only about $15 shipped.
Like shoddily built old houses and cars, people wrote the best laws they could at the time. When flaws are identified, then isn't the answer to amend and improve them? You're response seems to be just leave it and blame the original law writers for not getting it perfect the first time around.
I'm not against amending laws as improvements are found, I'm against changing laws that should already cover some specific antisocial behavior so that they basically list off all the tools that can be used to facilitate that behavior (in this case, adding "using a drone or UAV" specifically into the law).
Yeah but the law can't be that vague
It can't be as vague as just saying "peeping", but it can be as vague as describing the behavior that it's meant to prevent, in as much detail as necessary to be clear what is or isn't covered by the law, and attaching punishments to variations in the situation, if necessary.
Assault and battery won't stand up in court without evidence of injury. The problem with lasers is a lot of damage is done indirectly, ie distraction causing accidents, which is not covered by assault and battery laws. Hence new laws specifically targeted at the new threat, previously impossible with the technology of the day.
I was talking about direct injury by blinding with those examples. Other situations would be covered by other laws, of course. Causing a distraction in traffic leading to injury isn't a new situation; the fact that a laser was used isn't directly relevant to the situation.
Well that's the great thing about the Internet, you get to hear how it is in places that aren't where you're from.
And the same to you =) My point was that in my area, where they weren't outlawed, they still don't commonly cause problems, despite being cheap and widely available. It's a proof by example that a ban isn't the only effective way to handle abuse of a tool.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.