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Sociologist: Job Insecurity Is the New Normal

Mr.Intel writes: Allison Pugh, professor of Sociology at University of Virginia, and author of The Tumbleweed Society: Working and Caring in an Age of Insecurity, says workers in the U.S. are caught up in a "one-way honor system," in which workers are beholden to employers. She says that the golden era when Americans could get a job, keep it, and expect to retire with an adequate pension are over. JP Morgan Chase has cut 20,000 from its workforce in the past 5 years, last year HP cut 34,000 jobs, and many others have announced layoffs. In this interview Pugh talks about the social effects of this "insecurity culture."

585 comments

  1. HP ? Morgan chase? c'mon man by invictusvoyd · · Score: 1, Funny

    They tookkkurr jeooobs

  2. Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How about a blast from the past.. "within the capitalist system all methods for raising the social productiveness of labour are brought about at the cost of the individual labourer; all means for the development of production transform themselves into means of domination over, and exploitation of, the producers; they mutilate the labourer into a fragment of a man, degrade him to the level of an appendage of a machine, destroy every remnant of charm in his work and turn it into a hated toil; they estrange from him the intellectual potentialities of the labour process in the same proportion as science is incorporated in it as an independent power; they distort the conditions under which he works, subject him during the labour process to a despotism the more hateful for its meanness; they transform his life-time into working-time, and drag his wife and child beneath the wheels of the Juggernaut of capital."

      Karl Marx, Capital, Vol 1: A Critical Analysis of Capitalist Production

    1. Re:Insecurity culture.... by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Funny

      Look son, we're a tolerant crowd around here, but you go spouting that Commie Pinko crap off in some placers, yer likely to get yer head sawed off by some good ol' boys.

      Stick to the Bible, son. It's for the best.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:Insecurity culture.... by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, it is called 'Enhancing Shareholder Value' these days

      The current variation on the theme involves identifying employees that are owed pensions, converting said pensions (long term debt held by the Company) into 401k's, owned by the employee (at a rate below what the pension should have paid out at), then removing the employee from their position while replacing them with contract labor

      This looks really great on the balance sheet, but faces long-term viability as companies face loss of job knowledge and higher long-term contracting costs, that outweigh the fudged numbers they used to make the idea look feasible. Unfortunately, the ass-hats that come up with these ideas usually get bonuses and leave their positions before the shit hits the fans and shareholders are left holding the bag of a broken company and out of control contracting fees

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    3. Re:Insecurity culture.... by chipschap · · Score: 2

      The current variation on the theme involves identifying employees that are owed pensions, converting said pensions (long term debt held by the Company) into 401k's, owned by the employee (at a rate below what the pension should have paid out at), then removing the employee from their position while replacing them with contract labor

      While I understand your point, in the US at least ERISA laws do protect pensions to a reasonable extent. But what is happening, almost universally, is the discontinuation of defined-benefit pensions as a benefit. If you have one already, you generally get to keep it, although it might get frozen. But if you don't have a defined benefit plan, you're not going to get one. A 401k or equivalent is all you're going to get, maybe with some limited matching or company contribution. These days you're pretty much on your own for retirement planning, and it's very difficult, unless you start early and save a lot, to have a decent retirement account.

    4. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that such a position, though true, has been irrecoverably linked to the deaths of tens of millions of people and the misery of tens of millions more. All criticism of the status quo has been subsumed into this documentedly guilty philosophy. However, in order to graduate from any postsecondary institution of education, one must embrace it.

      Wretched world.

    5. Re:Insecurity culture.... by NicBenjamin · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's much worse if you're not financially literate.

      I work retail, at Home Depot. And some of my coworkers who actually have very good brains (one is a plumber), have made the interesting mistake of quitting their previous jobs, taking the cash from their 401k, and then not rolling it over to a new 401k within the 60 day period, which led to them a) paying full income tax on it, and b) paying a 10% penalty. One found out from his tax guy before he spent it, so he ended up with enough to pay off his house note and not much else; the plumber is still paying off the IRS.

      This is a whole lot more complicated then operating a pension, and there's nobody you can call from your Union (who a) knows you personally because you worked together, and b) probably has a long history of dealing with the issues of people like you and your pension system) to talk to when you get confused.

    6. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't think it's just the companies that have changed though, it's the market the companies live in. Before there were plenty of fairly sheltered waters, where you were competing with the shop down the street but it was obvious the town needed a shop like yours. Weathering the bad times was possibly more a game of attrition than truly caring for the workers. Today it's all about globalization and open markets with huge waves like on the open ocean.

      Jobs are washed away and probably never coming back, the large multinationals that have caught the huge global waves make tons of money while the small local or regional businesses get crushed. I don't think they have a choice anymore, really. That is to say, I think companies that tried this "cradle to grave" approach to employment would be crushed by the markets. And the ones who are big enough to have a choice, well they're stockholder driven and don't have any particular allegiance to anyone so they'll just squeeze out all the profit they can.

      On the bright side, they can't really carry on this race to the bottom without actually pulling people out of the gutter. China and India has seen wages and living standards increase considerably, as they chase new cheap labor that in itself becomes a scarce resource to be competed for. That will cut into the profitability of outsourcing, of course balanced by your pay not being worth as much abroad. Because they make decent money now too.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    7. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Guy+From+V · · Score: 1

      If only Marx's groupies didn't think planting seeds in slush-soaked frozen tundra grew magic grain before tens of millions starved... he could have had the last laugh.

    8. Re:Insecurity culture.... by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      One thing I've noticed too is that when they try to transition from a well cared for workforce to one in which the company essentially says "Work hard, but be ready to get fired at any moment" suddenly a lot of costs start adding up for the company. Suddenly people who might have clocked out for lunch before now start 'working' at their desk. People who would even buy supplies from time to time in order to keep working would just sit idly doing nothing if they didn't have everything they needed waiting on the company to provide everything. Someone who might not have religiously used all of their sick days now uses up every paid sick day available because their throat tickles. Oh and all of those employees you used to classify as independent contractors, a few of them just filed paperwork asking the IRS for guidance on their status. The company now owes 5 years of back taxes on 15% of their payroll. Goodbye last 5 years of profits.

      When you become a stickler for rules as an employer you'll suddenly discover that your employees are also really good at finding rules that benefit them.

    9. Re: Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      McDonald - Douglas playbook, now playing at Boeing. Efficient extraction of "value" before implosion. Gotta hit those growth numbers, right?

    10. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Stalin did terrible things. We must firmly believe in the free market and accept the loss of our retirement with stoic gratitude, because the alternative is Stalin.

    11. Re:Insecurity culture.... by kriston · · Score: 0

      Wow. I have colleagues who routinely borrow from their 401(k) accounts to buy exotic performance cars and things like that. Their 401(k) retirement accounts are doing just fine, thank you, thanks to financial literacy.

      Anyone who doesn't bother to understand how a 401(k) works deserves the penalties they get. The US education system needs to teach this as a part of their required curriculum NOW.

      Sheesh.

      --

      Kriston

    12. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spot on. I've noticed this evolve into a huge phenomena over just half a decade. It's sad, though, that these days mostly smaller companies seem to deal with their employees in a manner that prevents this from happening. The bigger ones are so tangled up in fixing up their balance sheets that they totally ignore *actual real world* costs.

      I myself used to buy a lot of hardware out of my own pocket that I deemed to be very helpful in my work but couldn't really justify as something we needed before I tested it thoroughly. After getting familiar with various new technologies, I have often advertised and demonstrated them to upper management in our meetings as working solutions that could potentially improve productivity and reduce costs. In many instances we've been able to accomplish huge proven savings and increased productivity this way and everybody has been happy; me for being listened and respected as a valued employee and my managers for having created an environment where this is possible.

    13. Re:Insecurity culture.... by davester666 · · Score: 1

      Clearly, we have to stone you to death now.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    14. Re:Insecurity culture.... by NicBenjamin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Americans are so predictable. Somebody complains some ridiculously intricate policy set up by the US Congress is too complicated for people who, unlike members of the US Congress, are not upper-middle-class Anglos, and they say a) it's their own damn fault for not being upper-middle-class Anglos, and b) we need to reform the education system.

      Well, my fine upper-middle-class friend, everyone has to use the retirement system. It is not an option. Legal Mexicans, illegal Mexicans, people who are actually mentally handicapped, your mother, everyone. This implies that a system designed with 8 different plan types (IRA, 401k, 403b, and 457; all of which also come in Roth varieties), most of which I cannot quite articulate the difference between despite having an 8-hour class on the tax implications of individual retirement accounts this Saturday, is probably too damn complex.

      As for the education system, these guys are Baby Boomers. 401ks were not legalized until '78, and not "discovered" by the private sector until 1980. They were out of the school system before the rules existed. Relying on shit people learn when they're 17 to guide their retirement decisions when they're 67 is not a terribly wise plan.

    15. Re:Insecurity culture.... by tburkhol · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Stick to the Bible, son. It's for the best.

      This is what the Lord has commanded: Gather of it, every man of you, as much as he can eat; you shall take an omer apiece, according to the number of persons who each of you has in his tent. And the people of Israel did so; they gathered some more, some less. But when they measured it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; each gathered according to what he could eat (Exodus 16:16-18

      All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. (Acts 2:44-45)

      You shall not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether he is one of your brothers or one of the sojourners who are in your land within your towns. You shall give him his wages on the same day, before the sun sets (for he is poor and counts on it), lest he cry against you to the Lord, and you be guilty of sin.Deuteronomy 24:14

    16. Re: Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the heck has happened to this site. You work at Home Depot? Why are you here? That's it, time to pack it in...

    17. Re:Insecurity culture.... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's got worse as companies got larger and the people at the top more separated from the people at the bottom. In a company of 30 people, the boss having to let five people go means speaking to them personally and experiencing the reaction of the other staff. In a company of 300,000 people an exec decided to get rid of 5,000 people in another town and delegates the job to a subordinate, never even meeting those people once.

      It's enabled managers to avoid that unfortunate human trait of compassion, feeing them to make hard nosed business decisions where employees are just another resource. The reason Japanese companies last so long is that the managers, no matter how high up, feel personally responsible when they have to make people redundant, like it's a personal failure and something they should apologise for. In the west they feel the opposite - it's a triumph, money was saved and the business streamlined, and they deserve a fat bonus.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    18. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They got it wrong too. DEY TUK URR JIBS

    19. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I always dump my 401k because i get tired of the depressing monthly statements.

      "By the time your 65 you will have accrued almost $6000!"

      Yay $5 a month!

    20. Re:Insecurity culture.... by epine · · Score: 1

      Anyone who doesn't bother to understand how a 401(k) works deserves the penalties they get.

      Aside from being the reincarnation of Marie Antoinette, you're probably one of those guys who mainly eats berries, nuts, and seeds because the paleolithic digestive system has not yet caught up with modern living.

      I suggest you pack a copy of the American tax code dealing with the 401(k) into a time machine (if it will fit) and t-fax it back to Leibniz or Goethe or Voltaire or Darwin for a second opinion concerning it's common-man sex appeal.

    21. Re:Insecurity culture.... by epine · · Score: 1

      they transform his life-time into working-time

      I would love to be a fly on the wall when the ghost of proletariats-future explains to Karl how "now trending in the proletariat zeitgeist of the year 2015" is incessant chatter about why there's still so little content available in 4k.

      Karl: What's 4k?

      Ghost [glancing furtively at iWatch appointment calendar]: Ahhhh, we have a little bit of catching up to do, don't we? How about we just leave that unanswered for now and call it a night?

    22. Re:Insecurity culture.... by operagost · · Score: 1

      If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.(2 Thess 3:10)

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    23. Re:Insecurity culture.... by operagost · · Score: 1

      You know, the tax laws regarding 401Ks are quite clear. You don't have to go to a tax lawyer; any CPA, H&R Block, or tax prep software will tell you that. The firm that holds your 401K fund will tell you. Heck, Google will tell you. In a world where nothing is free, it should be obvious that something that is tax favorable like 401Ks should have limitations. I have no sympathy for someone who thought a (initially) tax-free retirement fund could be dipped into whenever he wanted without penalty.

      If you think a pension fund is somehow easier, look up what it takes to borrow against it. The interest rates are nasty. At least with a 401K, you're actually paying interest back to the fund, so the real loss is in the loss of return due to the remaining principal being lower.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    24. Re:Insecurity culture.... by fche · · Score: 0

      Was there a survey or mind-scan of some sort, based on which you feel entitled to state the inner feelings of Japanese vs. Western executives? Or have you spoken to some?

    25. Re:Insecurity culture.... by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      How about a blast from the past.. "within the capitalist system all methods for raising the social productiveness of labour are brought about at the cost of the individual labourer; all means for the development of production transform themselves into means of domination over, and exploitation of, the producers; they mutilate the labourer into a fragment of a man, degrade him to the level of an appendage of a machine, destroy every remnant of charm in his work and turn it into a hated toil; they estrange from him the intellectual potentialities of the labour process in the same proportion as science is incorporated in it as an independent power; they distort the conditions under which he works, subject him during the labour process to a despotism the more hateful for its meanness; they transform his life-time into working-time, and drag his wife and child beneath the wheels of the Juggernaut of capital."

      Karl Marx, Capital, Vol 1: A Critical Analysis of Capitalist Production

      Can there be any mystery as to why Marx is so vilified in a country beholden to a Capitalist system?

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    26. Re:Insecurity culture.... by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      It's much worse if you're not financially literate.

      I work retail, at Home Depot. And some of my coworkers who actually have very good brains (one is a plumber), have made the interesting mistake of quitting their previous jobs, taking the cash from their 401k, and then not rolling it over to a new 401k within the 60 day period, which led to them a) paying full income tax on it, and b) paying a 10% penalty. One found out from his tax guy before he spent it, so he ended up with enough to pay off his house note and not much else; the plumber is still paying off the IRS.

      This is a whole lot more complicated then operating a pension, and there's nobody you can call from your Union (who a) knows you personally because you worked together, and b) probably has a long history of dealing with the issues of people like you and your pension system) to talk to when you get confused.

      And to top it all off, then Wall Street takes advantage of people's financial illiteracy to fleece them with fees, all the while calling them "muppets". I would say that finance is something that should be taught in school, but I can't really see teenagers giving a crap.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    27. Re:Insecurity culture.... by kriston · · Score: 1

      A predictable answer from Slashdot. It really isn't that hard to understand.

      --

      Kriston

    28. Re:Insecurity culture.... by dywolf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You ain't supposed to read the damn thing!

      You're just supposed to thump it, while telling others what to do!

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    29. Re:Insecurity culture.... by dywolf · · Score: 1

      Im guessing that if they can afford to pay the money back in, they aren't really in danger financially to start with.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    30. Re:Insecurity culture.... by kriston · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Another predictable answer from a holier-than-thou, American-bashing Slashdot reader. Seriously, retirement plans really aren't that hard to understand.

      --

      Kriston

    31. Re:Insecurity culture.... by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      His analysis of the problems with capitalism was actually pretty good, it's his solutions that were pretty much universally bad.

    32. Re:Insecurity culture.... by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      I believe he was speaking of the Republican bible, none of that leftist hippie King James garbage.

    33. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Global Capitialism will drag your (American, European) wages and living standards down to the point where it has dragged the cheapest labor's up. That is equality for all workers across the globe!

      It's just with global capitalism, a very tiny proportion will have most of the money. And it's almost certainly not going to be you and your family.

      Captcha: betrayed

    34. Re:Insecurity culture.... by xdor · · Score: 1

      That last bit contradicts the first bits.

      Clearly the last scenario was free market "work for hire", not all things in common. So which is it?

    35. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't mind the loss of pensions. A pensions puts most of your eggs in the same basket, if the company has financial issues you might be out of a job AND lose your pension (see Enron, not an exact example, but you get the drift).

      So I would prefer the company give the employee an equivalent amount of money in a retirement account. I just wish the rules surrounding 401ks were better. For example, if you roll your 401k into an IRA you have vastly more investment options. But you can't just roll your 401k over without some kind of qualifying event, typically if you change jobs. If you stay at the same job you are punished - you have to keep the money in the 401k in the restricted options offered by the 401k provider. Your money is captive and they know it.

      In the beginning this was justified to cover the costs of incremental small investments on a weekly or biweekly basis. But now you can go to an E*TRADE or ScotTrade and choose from hundreds of investments that have no fees (if you hold them for a nominal amount of time like 90 days). Why don't the 401k companies offer the same thing? Because they are granted special status by the tax code and know that you are captive.

      E.g. if you decide to forgo a 401k and use just an IRA instead of being able to invest $18,500 per year before taxes you can only invest $5,000 per year before taxes. If your employer offers a match you are forgoing that money as well.

      OK, rant over

    36. Re:Insecurity culture.... by war4peace · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Reading a text in a godly way isn't hard to do either... if you're Morgan Freeman.
      Building a complex dashboard in OBIEE isn't hard to do... from my point of view.
      Developing a dynamic website is also not hard... for someone out there. For me, it's impossible.
      Every thing that's simple to someone might be complicated for someone else. Now, we're talking about a thing that might drive you into (or literally under) the ground financially speaking if done wrong. There should be no room for mistake. If there is, of if the retirement plans are too complicated for more than 1% of population, then it should be simplified/redesigned/reformed/whatever.

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    37. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really all people need to know is - a) any financial transaction might have tax implications and b) that goes double for any financial transaction involving a retirement account of any flavor.

      Then they need to conclude that if they are performing a financial transaction they either need to do the research themselves to understand the implications or consult a professional who can explain the implications.

    38. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you explain the differences then?

      This isn't meant to sound argumentative. It seems several people (myself included) don't understand the finer details. You sound as though you do and, assuming that's true, could benefit the less informed.

    39. Re:Insecurity culture.... by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      Kind of yeah. In general, humans prioritize starting with self and moving outwards rather than starting with species and moving inwards. This means there will always be someone who wants to seize power. Grant more power to the state and you create more openings for this to occur. Does that mean we're doomed or should embrace anarchy? No, but it means that bigger government isn't intrinsically good and comes with risks. That means we need to choose carefully what we allow our government to do and how big we allow it to grow. Like many things a little is good, more is a bit better but a lot is bad.

    40. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eh. not quite. I have a nephew who doesn't earn much - he's got a math/programming graduate degree from a good university, but is working at a multinational in the stick for shit wages (he will move to the Bay Area soon, where his skills will be rewarded). Until he can move - probably soon if he'll accept our offer of a room until he can afford an apt or condo - he's working a professional job for mid-thirties bc where he lives the economy sucks and the corporations count on people being too entrenched to move (family, land, etc).

      My siblings and I have been helping him with a little extra cash so he can max out his 401k while he's young. Our parents helped us as well and it's helped build financial security. But we are, as noted above, upper-middle-class Anglos with SWE as our cradle language. The number of people he works with who contribute nothing to their 401ks - including those in their 40s - is alarming.

    41. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I worked for a small break-fix shop in the Valley for a bit that was about fifty people but was COMPLETELY into the big-company-disenfranchise-the-staff rules. Turnover was REALLY high. When I left, they cried and wailed and called me disloyal and tried to offer me $$ to stay.....and if I'd taken it, they'd have put my job on the market and tried to hire a replacement at the same salary. So it's just just big companies; it's free-market libertarian every-person-for-themselves selfish knuckleheads who do it, irrespective of location.

      They are going under, fwiw, because they were a Sun shop that has not made the transition to Windows and Linux HW diagnosis and break-fix well - the manufacturers have, wisely, sewn that one up, and it's very hard for a third-party company to survive in those environs.

    42. Re:Insecurity culture.... by ErichTheRed · · Score: 1

      I know /. is the home of social Darwinists on the Internet, but one of the things a pension does is shift the enormous responsibility of retirement planning off of ill prepared workers and onto a firm that's capable of managing long term risk.

      Just because you or your colleagues can understand the differences between retirement plan types, the foolhardiness of cashing it in early, or what a 401(k) loan costs you in potential lost returns doesn't mean that everyone can. Yes, most large employers have simpler options with 401(k)s now, and you have the basic choice of age appropriate, stable, risky or "OMG scary" funds, but smaller employers can set up retirement accounts that can basically invest in whatever they want. I remember reading about a long-term employee of a dental practice who lost everything in the 2008 crash because their only retirement investment options involved the dentist's various real estate dealings.

      Contrast this with a pension, usually invested by professionals using actuarial models, who have decades of time to fix screw-ups, and automatically manage peoples' contributions. It's similar to Social Security -- no matter what anyone says, there will be at least some benefits available to retirees. They won't be as generous as payouts from an incredibly lucky or financially savvy 401(k) investor, but they'll be there. The thing that bothers me is that people who don't understand finances are the best suited to pensions, but they're losing this as an option. If I were growing up in the 60s, and got a plumbers' apprenticeship out of high school, which do you think would appeal more to me?
      (a) "Contribute $x per week to the union pension fund, and when you retire, you are guaranteed receive at least $y * (years of service)."
      (b) "Here's a mound of paperwork with financial terms you won't understand. Choose a percentage of your income to save. (What's a percentage?) Choose a fund, here's the fees but don't worry about fees. Past performance is no guarantee of future results."

      Sometimes, people who are techie and live/work around other techies lose sight of the fact that there are millions of other people in society with them that don't have the capability to understand these things.

    43. Re:Insecurity culture.... by k6mfw · · Score: 1

      Capitalism is where man exploits man. Communism it's the other way around.

      --
      mfwright@batnet.com
    44. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, don't forget the year of Jubilee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical)

    45. Re:Insecurity culture.... by JeffOwl · · Score: 1

      The defined benefit pension is great if you make it to retirement with a company you've been at for 20 years. Typically the benefit curve starts going up rapidly once you hit 15 or 20 years and 55 years old. If you are 55 and want to change jobs, you are kinda screwing yourself on your pension. You keep what you previously earned for your pension, but your first 5 - 10 years at your new company (when they did have a defined benefit pension) you will not come close to making up what you would have received at during those years at your old company. There is always a risk with pensions. If they freeze it before you hit the knee in the curve you are likewise screwed; you would have been better off with that 401K. The only downside I see with the 401K is that you are in control of your destiny as far as investments. That will work out great for some, not so well for others.

    46. Re:Insecurity culture.... by someSnarkyBastard · · Score: 1

      Okay. In that, case explain all the intricacies of a 401k to me as if I were 5 years old.

    47. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But look at all of those wonderful communist societies. A pure Utopia, I tell you.

      I've worked with a bunch of people from former communist Eastern-block countries and they'll tell you that communism sucks. In practice it doesn't work as advertised.

    48. Re:Insecurity culture.... by babybird · · Score: 1

      How can you study history and even ask a question like this seriously? It's a well known and widely documented feature of Japanese (and some other Asian countries') culture.

      I don't have the book with me to quote, but in Chinese Culture: A Sourcebook, there's a section talking about an ancient Chinese general's response to a suggestion that they build a war monument after a decisive victory, so I'll paraphrase the gist of what he said. Essentially, the general said they should not build a monument celebrating the victory, because the general said the fact that they needed to go into battle in the first place was a result of a failure on the part of the government-- had they done their jobs correctly, there would've been no need for a battle in the first place-- and so why should they waste resources building a monument to what amounts to failure? I don't recall the year that this took place, but it was at least 1,000 years ago, and there are further examples all across history in both Chinese and Japanese cultures.

      If you study psychology, you'll find a similar, related effect of this difference in their societies. The incidence of clinical psychopathy in the U.S. and other Westernized countries is somewhere on the order of 1 in 25, to 1 in 100 people. When the exact same criteria are applied in some Asian countries, the results show that the incidence of psychopathy is somewhere on the order of 1 in 100 to 1 in 400. There has not been adequate research to confirm the hypothesis, but the researchers believe that the actual incidence is not higher in those Asian countries, and it's simply that due to their cultures being more "everyone-oriented" rather than individual-oriented as we have here in the U.S., that the psychopaths have simply had to adapt to considering other people in order to succeed and pursue their own goals-- so they're just less visible and marginally less anti-social due to the necessity of being pro-social in order to succeed at anything or to have any power to wield over anyone.

      Literally all of the facts suggest that the differences that show up across the board in their culture and history are why they take different approaches to things than we do here in the west-- approaches in which the leaders are more likely to take personal responsibility, or at least handle things personally enough that there are direct repercussions to them for their own failures. For modern examples, look at the executives being prosecuted for their handling of the Fukushima Daiichi power plant after the tsunami, or the fact that when it came time to clean up after the disaster, it was the older workers to volunteered to do it because they were nearer to the end of their lives anyway, so that the younger people who had more life left to live would be more likely to be able to live them out.

      Their history is riddled with examples like that. Remember that this is a nation that came up with seppuku as a means to deal with ultimate failure or even bringing shame onto oneself or one's family through one's failure.

      --
      Keith D.
    49. Re:Insecurity culture.... by babybird · · Score: 1

      Sorry, didn't catch the error in the preview-- the incidence is not actually lower in those Asian countries, and is not higher in other western countries relative to the Asian countries. My first comment stated the opposite effect, while my numbers correctly didn't.

      --
      Keith D.
    50. Re:Insecurity culture.... by fche · · Score: 2

      Those are certainly interesting historical anecdotes. But the original poster made claims about business executives, none of whose scale/type existed back in the days of Seppoku etc. Even if timely, they describe only the orchard, and neither the apple nor the orange.

    51. Re:Insecurity culture.... by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Who said anything about dipped into?

      What happened was these guys quit their jobs to come to Home Depot, so the old company cashed out their 401ks, and handed them checks. They may (or may not have) have been told to roll over the money into another qualified account, but as working class guys that particular turn of phrase is impenetrable jargon. You might as well talk to them in Klingon as in lawyer-approved legal language. All they know is they got a check with their name on it, and in almost every case but this one that means you have money to spend.

      One of them did have a tax guy, and the tax guy was fully capable of speaking normal people English, but by the time this little talk happened the 60 days were over.

      BTW, the fact you're talking about "borrowing against" it shows how little clue you have what life is like for people who think $15 an hour is a massive wage. Nobody at my store would even think that "borrowing against" a retirement account was a thing. Most of them don't know what the money going into their account is invested in. They know they save for retirement, so they talked to the HR lady to have some money taken out to save for retirement. They picked an option, and their money will go into that option until either a) they really need the money, or b) they retire and start taking distributions. If a) happens they'll take the money out (like I said, "borrowing against the account" is a concept they do not know exists), not know that they have to tell the administrator they intend to use it to pay for cancer treatments, and then I (my other job is H and R Block) will have to fill out the 5329 to explain to the IRS that the money was used for cancer and not a Vegas getaway.

    52. Re:Insecurity culture.... by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      If retirement plans are so easy to understand please explain to me why, precisely, Congress felt the need to create a) IRAs, b) 401ks, c) 403bs, and d) 457s. I can tell you precisely which groups each if those three plans applies to, but damned if I can figure out why the Federal tax treatment for those three groups is so different you need three separate sections of the IRC. Wouldn't a single section do, and much reduce the potential for confusion, while at the same time severely reducing people's need for things like tax lawyers and my other job at H and R Block?

    53. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't need to know much more

      1) All income is taxed at some point
      2) 401k is based on compound interest
      3) If you have a well diversified selection, what goes down, must come back up

      This shit is simple. You learn how 401ks work in middle school during pre-algebra. Don't be a high school drop out and you'll do fine.

    54. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My 401k has averaging slightly above 10% interest per year for a long time now. It would be higher, but I left it at the defaults for nearly half the time I had it, which was closer to 8% per year. Then I found out some of my co-workers were getting around 14% post-2008 during the rebound and I was getting a lowly 11%. Seems the default 401k distribution was conservative, targeting investment distributions for the median aged worker, not someone who just graduated.

      In a year or two my 401k will be growing more from interest than from my 10% of salary contributions. About 40 years from retirement.

      Recessions are good for my 401k. One of two things will happen. I get to purchase a bunch of stock while it's cheap or the market spirals out of control and crashes, making the dollar completely worthless and society goes to ruin and the only things of value are food, water, bullets, and alcohol.

    55. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there are millions of other people in society with them that don't have the capability to understand these things

      Willfully ignorant. Same people who spend $200 at the bar while complaining they don't get paid enough at work and have no money.

    56. Re:Insecurity culture.... by kriston · · Score: 1

      Paraphrasing a downvoted-to-oblivion comment:

      You don't need to know much more:

      1) All income is taxed at some point. 401(k) is taxed later at a lower rate.
      2) 401k is based on investment earnings
      3) If you have a well diversified selection, what goes down, must come back up

      --

      Kriston

    57. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, as you see, telling others what to do does not work...

    58. Re:Insecurity culture.... by hawkfish · · Score: 1

      It's enabled managers to avoid that unfortunate human trait of compassion, feeing them to make hard nosed business decisions where employees are just another resource. The reason Japanese companies last so long is that the managers, no matter how high up, feel personally responsible when they have to make people redundant, like it's a personal failure and something they should apologise for. In the west they feel the opposite - it's a triumph, money was saved and the business streamlined, and they deserve a fat bonus.

      Part of the empathy gap (at least in ANZAC cultures) is caused by massive wage inequality compared to European/Japanese cultures. In a country like the US with a population of ~300M, the "1%" constitute a group of about 3M. At this scale, they clearly should have no difficulty surrounding themselves with people in similar circumstances, and in practice wage (and wealth) inequality can create serious barriers (often actual walls) between them and the rest of the society. Such segregation is documented to reduce empathy. Moreover, reducing such segregation requires active choice, which in turn depends on the empathy that you are trying to create! So the only way to create greater inter-class empathy appears to be to force the wealthy to associate with the rest of society. And the only way I know of to do that is seriously high taxation rates (either of income, or property or both) that cannot be avoided by moving to Texas or the Cayman Islands.

      --
      You will not drink with us, but you would taste our steel? - Walter Matthau, The Pirates
    59. Re:Insecurity culture.... by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Okay. In that, case explain all the intricacies of a 401k to me as if I were 5 years old.

      Just about every single topic known to man has peculiar intricacies. For most cases, you don't need to know about them.
      For the vast, vast majority of Americans, all you need to know is that you should contribute the max you can afford, you don't withdraw from the 401k unless under extreme conditions, and that sometimes it's good to roll over an old 401k into a new one when you get a new job.

      You don't need to know that future catch-up adjustments can be adjusted for inflation in increments of $500. You don't need to know about the self-employed versions. You can ask your plan administrator whether a regular or Roth 401k is right.

  3. File this under duh by RobinEggs · · Score: 1

    Thank you for the blinding flash of the obvious, Ms. Pugh.

    1. Re:File this under duh by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Thank you for the blinding flash of the obvious, Ms. Pugh.

      What she says is not "obvious". It not even true. The "lifetime employment" of the past is a myth, based on false nostalgia. For most people, it never happened. Average job tenure is as high today as it ever was. We may have fewer people employed for 30 years at the same company, but we also have far fewer people employed as migrant workers or day laborers. Overall, people today have more job security than in the past, not less.

    2. Re:File this under duh by geoskd · · Score: 2

      Overall, people today have more job security than in the past, not less.

      75% of American jobs are in the service sector. The vast majority of these job are jobs that no one wants, even the people filling them currently. Surety of keeping a crappy job is not job security, its indentured servitude. It may not carry the same contract, but in point of fact it is the same thing.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    3. Re:File this under duh by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      True - In fact, when you talk to a lot of people in their 60's and 70's, it is extremely interesting to hear the variety of careers they had.

      My dad was everything from a trucker to a college professor.

      I also don't see things as a "one way honor system". A lot of people I know move jobs every so many years just so they can renegotiate their wages. That, or they get bored with one company and move to another.

    4. Re:File this under duh by tburkhol · · Score: 1

      75% of American jobs are in the service sector. The vast majority of these job are jobs that no one wants, even the people filling them currently.

      It's actually 80% now. The "Service Sector" includes financial services (ie, Wall St), health care (ie, doctors), educational services (ie tenured professor), information services (ie, /.), and government (ie, cushy, do-nothing, job-for-life). Only about a third of "service sector" jobs are retail-wholesale-transportation-leisure (ie McJob).

      This is supposed to be the new economic model: countries progress from agriculture to manufacturing to service (The three major sectors) as the skills of their people increase. There's a lot of people trying to scare you by implying that "service sector" means "McDonalds," but the service sector includes all the white collar jobs.

    5. Re:File this under duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "lifetime employment" of the past is a myth, based on false nostalgia.

      Oh, no I have it on good authority that there was a period of lifetime employment in the US that lasted about ten years.

    6. Re:File this under duh by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      Average job tenure is as high today as it ever was.

      That seems like a pretty enormous claim and doesn't match my experience, have any data to back it up?

    7. Re:File this under duh by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Average job tenure is as high today as it ever was.

      That seems like a pretty enormous claim and doesn't match my experience, have any data to back it up?

      Here is a chart that shows a rise of average job tenure from 3.5 years 35 years ago, to 4.6 years today. The numbers come from the BLS.

    8. Re:File this under duh by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      Weird. When I first started working there were tons of people who had been in the company for decades, nowadays I rarely see that. There must be some kind of aggregation effect that is obscuring the change.

  4. And it all comes down to greed by gweilo8888 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Consumers want more product for less money: Greedy.

    Companies want higher profit margins off their products: Greedy.

    Investors want higher returns on investment: Greedy.

    Upper management sees that there is no way to fulfil all of the above and still give themselves huge pay rises without laying off half the riff-raff and making the other half work twice as hard for half as much: Greedy

    Cue ever-decreasing circle as consumers earn less and want even more for it, in the hope of compensating for their shrinking earnings, thus repeating the circle. No single tier here is to blame; we ALL are in a more abstract manner. The blame lies squarely with basic human nature and the words "I want".

    1. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Living in only an "I need" world wouldn't be all that great

      I need water, food, shelter. Everything else is "I want".

      Imagine a world where you can't want to have the internet, you cant want a TV, you can't want a vacation ... nothing.

      I don't think there is anything wrong with "I want" but I will admit some greed can go to the extreme.

    2. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Consumers want more product for less money: Greedy.

      I did NOT ask my employer to ship my job overseas. I did NOT ask that they move the division overseas. I did NOT ask to train some Chinese guy about what a pointers and basic programming - let alone dipshit CS topics - because employers are ALL liars when they say they cannot get qualified workers. Liars. Period. There are NO exceptions.

      This consumer wants to keep his AMERICAN made good stuff but is stuck with Chinese made crap - and it's all crap - because my I cannot afford more. Thanks in part to my education loans. CS degrees are NOT a guarantee to a decent life.

    3. Re:And it all comes down to greed by gweilo8888 · · Score: 0

      You could always have bought less stuff and paid more for it to support homegrown. (In fact, chances are that for many of the non-electronic products you need, you still can do so.)

      However, the chances are as high or higher that you choose not to do so, as do most people. Like it or not, you *are* almost certainly a part of this problem.

    4. Re: And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not try harder and earn a few more bucks?

    5. Re:And it all comes down to greed by sjames · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When were those conditions NOT true?

      Answer, never. It's something more. Perhaps the level of greed increased somewhere, perhaps the short term consequences for taking it too far diminished.Perhaps someone gained disproportionate control of the government.

      So let's see here, OH, it looks like corporate profits are at an 85 year high and wages are at a 65 year low!

      Hrmm, where DID that wealth go?!?

    6. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I did NOT ask my employer to ship my job overseas. I did NOT ask that they move the division overseas. I did NOT ask to train some Chinese guy about what a pointers and basic programming...

      You most certainly did! When you reelected the politicians who write tax deals (free trade) to do exactly that! You should be more careful what you vote for!

    7. Re:And it all comes down to greed by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Greed by itself may not be so bad. Mix it with the antipathy and sociopathy that has become highly rewarded in the business, and you got a problem

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    8. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      When you bought that TV from China, you voted with your money that their workers are better than domestic ones.

      When you bought that foreign car, you voted with your money that auto workers in that country are better than domestic ones.

      When you bought imported food because it is cheap, you voted that local farms are worthless compared to whatever fillers get tossed in the food.

      When you bought at Amazon or Wal-Mart instead of paying a little more at a nearby grocery store, you voted for the race to the bottom in wages.

      When you voted for a pro-immigration President and Congress because they would "stimulate the economy" with "free trade" treaties, you opened the floodgates for people to come in and take your job solely because they will work for less.

      Only got yourself to blame, bub.

    9. Re:And it all comes down to greed by thesupraman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That would have been true about 15 years ago.

      These days you seem to have forgotten that most of the truly physically productive jobs have already been outsourced to other countries (China, Mexico, etc), and you are now sliding down the slippery slope of those countries refining their ownership, capital, and trade situations to take advantage of this.

      Japan was once the 'cheap labor' for the US.... and yet people never seem to see a trend.

      My only suggestion? Stop damn well following the crowd and consuming every little luxury you can convince yourself you deserve on credit!
      Learn a practical skill or three (and no, manipulating office politics is not a practical skill).
      Live somewhere that is sustainable n what you can actually contribute.
      Take a walk in a park on a nice day and revel in the fact that you are alive.. and that doesnt actually cost (well, much).
      Oh, and perhaps treat your friends/family with due care and respect, because when shit happens - everyone needs some support.

      Oh, sorry, not in line with the American Dream? oh well, good lucky with that.

    10. Re: And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Only psychopaths and egomaniacs consider greed to be good. Greed is not good. Never was, never will.

    11. Re:And it all comes down to greed by TWX · · Score: 1

      I've wanted the country-of-origin to be prominently displayed on the front of the packaging for a long time. Certainly there are some things that I will buy that are imports, but I think that the average consumer doesn't even check country-of-origin, and it's all the more insidious when long-running American brands are offshored while still masquerading as being American.

      The most insidious was when we went to an Ethan Allen store several years ago to buy some bedroom furniture. We had been looking at a particular set for a few months and finally decided to spend the many thousands of dollars to get everything. We were literally filling-out the triplicate form when I asked the saleslady, on a lark, about country-of-origin. They were imported. She backpedalled about how they'd trained the production staff (Vietnam if I remember right) and how the quality was just as good as the furniture coming out of their American plants. Tore the form in half and walked out. Part of what pissed me off so much was that they were charging the same as they charge for furniture made in the USA, so they were simply doing it for profit. No benefit to the consumer even in the form of lower prices, just profit.

      Sears has stopped buying Craftsman-branded tools from American tool forges and is now making them in China and Taiwan. I'm wondering if the introduction of the "Evolv" line a few years ago was to test the waters with the manufacturer that they went with before migrating the bulk of the tool line to them. Either way, if I want a lifetime warranty hand tool made overseas I can get one a lot cheaper at Harbor Freight than at Sears, and with identical warranties, why would I continue to buy from Sears?

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    12. Re:And it all comes down to greed by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, well funny you should mention that. Germany, Sweden, Norway, Finland all have mixed socialist/capitalist models using whatever works to solve actual problems.

      For instance, UBER is a great capitalist solution to the problem of transportation, requiring no new infrastructure. Eventually some regulation will be required to make it safer, but it's a great working solution.

      Health care would benefit from this approach too. If health care providers were legally required to post all prices up front (regulation) and the import of foreign drugs and insurance was legal (deregulation), you'd have a combination of government action and market forces that would go a long way to solving the health care mess and keeping a lid on prices.

      A simplistic, "Rah, rah, free market capitalism" approach eventually leads to Somalia. An all regulation approach takes you to North Korea. Take your pick. In both cases, evil lives at the extremes.

      --
      Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    13. Re: And it all comes down to greed by bunratty · · Score: 1

      So what does it mean that capitalism is founded on that very idea, that everyone will do what is in their own best interest?

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    14. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      immigration isn't the problem. It's the second class of citizens that liberals have created with their H1B & "undocumented immigrant" policies.
      H1B is basically indentured servitude and I don't blame indians for signing up. this book is 1st world whining compared to the rough life an indian has; but should we push down our middle class to pull up a foreign countries people?

      "undocumented immigrants" are basically union busters. You can pay them shit wages, provide shit safety, and can fire them for any reason even racial/gender/sex. All of the things unions fought for in this country are being erased by them. again, another attempt to lift up poor people by pushing down our middle class.

    15. Re:And it all comes down to greed by allcoolnameswheretak · · Score: 1

      Except that companies and the "upper management" guys are getting richer and richer every decade, whereas the rest of us is getting poorer and poorer.

      Facts:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    16. Re:And it all comes down to greed by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Can you name any television companies that are completely American made and sold in big box electronic stores?

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    17. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      This is not insightful. This is typical denial. Hey mods, wtf?

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    18. Re: And it all comes down to greed by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 2

      People don't know what's in their best interest. They need to be ruled and controlled. Sure they will complain, but it's for their own good.

    19. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 2, Informative

      I did NOT ask my employer to ship my job overseas

      Remember all those fairy tales about the jinn that grants you three wishes, and how they never quite work out the way people think they do? It's the same with economic policy.

      This consumer wants to keep his AMERICAN made good stuff but is stuck with Chinese made crap - and it's all crap - because my I cannot afford more.

      Well, you can't get American made stuff at Chinese prices because Americans (like you) are not willing to work for Chinese wages and under Chinese conditions. Americans even voted to prohibit their fellow Americans to work for "too little" money.

      Nor is that a bad thing. The fact that the Chinese are toiling in factories assembling iPhones means that many Americans now can work in jobs like software development and web design, jobs that are both nicer and more lucrative.

      Thanks in part to my education loans. CS degrees are NOT a guarantee to a decent life.

      Nothing ever is guaranteed in life. You should have thought about that before you took out a loan to pay for your CS degree.

    20. Re:And it all comes down to greed by sjames · · Score: 1

      Simple wanting is not greed. Greed is the excess of wanting. Especially when it's to the point of depriving others to take more than your share.

    21. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Liberals aren't the only ones supporting H1B, and they certainly aren't the only ones opposing reforms of our current system. As long as we have people in the country who are ineligible for citizenship, we'll have the problems you're describing.

    22. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Noah+Haders · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When you bought that foreign car, you voted with your money that auto workers in that country are better than domestic ones.

      a lot of fords and chevys are made in mexico, and a lot of foreign brands are made in US. careful when you fling your jingoistic mud.

    23. Re:And it all comes down to greed by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 2
      I earn far less than my parents, yet somehow work less, own a (much) larger house, have more free time, take more vacations, have visited 4 continents (things my parents never did) and my house is stuffed full of gadgets (there's almost nothing I don't own, at least in representation) my parents had crap and lived in a small house.

      If you took me and everything I own back to 1970 I would be considered very well off.

    24. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 0

      So let's see here, OH, it looks like corporate profits are at an 85 year high and wages are at a 65 year low!

      The fact that "corporate profits" are a higher percentage of GDP, a prioriy, only means that more private businesses are organized as corporations, hardly a big problem.

      The claim that "the statutory top corporate tax rate in the United States is 35 percent" is a half-truth, because the effective corporate tax rate in the US is actually closer to 50%, one of the highest in the world.

      And the fact that "total wages and salaries last year amounted to $7.1 trillion, or 42.5 percent of the entire economy [...] lower than in any year previously measured" is also hardly surprising: given that the US government keeps on piling mandates on employers, employers are satisfying those mandates in lieu of raises.

      If you want wages to rise again, stop piling regulations and mandates on employers.

      Finally, the fact that "there are myriad tax credits, deductions and preferences available" is, again, a huge fault of the same politicians who whine and complain about "falling wages" and "rising corporate profits", since they are creating all those "tax credits, deductions, and preferences" in a vain attempt to steer the economy and satisfy special interests.

      Hrmm, where DID that wealth go?!?

      A lot of it went to the federal government and spending on crony capitalism like bailouts and healthcare reform. The rest went to the middle class, mostly in the form of huge handouts and employer mandates that don't show up as wages.

    25. Re:And it all comes down to greed by sjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Let me guess, no kids?

    26. Re:And it all comes down to greed by sjames · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That same worn out tune has been playing since Reagan and it has only made matters worse for people year by year.

      The greedy poor man holding them billionaires down just because he thinks he has a right to eat or something after putting in a 10 hour day. And not even a shred of evidence to back it.

    27. Re:And it all comes down to greed by currently_awake · · Score: 2

      Both Captialism and Communism are extremes. You need to avoid pure political systems and get the best mix you can. The USA actually has rather a lot of Communism in it, but unfortunately it's mostly of the corporate wealfare type.

    28. Re:And it all comes down to greed by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      I bought a Honda because I want a domestic car, not an import like a Ford. People do vote with their money- they export the jobs to the third world, we stop buying from them.

    29. Re:And it all comes down to greed by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      If Skynet ever does happen, it won't take over the world by military force. It will just run automated factories to wipe out all the jobs while taking over our entire power/food/telecom infrastructure. Using the networks (controlled) it will tell the poor the rich are to blame, and tell the rich the poor are out to get them. Then sit back and watch the bloodbath.

    30. Re: And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how do the rulers know? They'll only be guided by their own self interests. Given that there are more no rulers I'd give them the choice as their self interest would be evened out.

    31. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Here in the US, there is only real one skill needs, and that is the ability to lie convincingly.

      However, this era where bullshit talks and skills walk is coming to a close pretty soon. China has achieved supercomputing parity and has closed the gates on exports.

      My recommendations: As the parent said, learn a few real skills.

      Skill #1: Something that is actually useful no matter what. Learn plumbing, electrical, HVAC, architecture, construction, first aid, basic medic training, how do do a haircut, how to make a proper drink. Things that will be in demand no matter how shitty the economy turns.

      Skill #2: Learn an off-grid skill. First aid, farming, animal stuff, maintaining engines, gunsmithing, basic building with hand tools, metalsmithing, etc.

      Skill #3: Learn something manufacturing based. CNC machining, woodworking, or some type of trade.

      The reason is, depending on how bad stuff happens, you are covered. The US starts making something other than shitty foreign policy? Covered. The US crashes completely and you have to go back to substistance farming? Covered. The economy collapses and all IT is offshored? Covered with a trade that is recession-proof.

    32. Re:And it all comes down to greed by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      The USA was designed to be run by the rich. The American war of independance was fought because of Corporate Taxes. The King of England, needing money to pay for a war, demanded that American corporations start paying the same taxes as everyone else and they staged a revolution.

    33. Re: And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is based on people doing what is in their "rational self interest". Is it rational to destroy the entire economic potential and capital of the family unit to attempt to save the life of one child (blow all savings and end up bankrupt on medical costs) when you have 3 others to take care of. Because any sane human being will.

      A system where the basic assumptions fail to correspond with reality is flawed, no matter how you dress it up with dodgy statistics.

    34. Re:And it all comes down to greed by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The fact that "corporate profits" are a higher percentage of GDP, a prioriy, only means that more private businesses are organized as corporations, hardly a big problem.

      More than forty percent of all workers in the US are making less than $15/hr.

      The claim that "the statutory top corporate tax rate in the United States is 35 percent" is a half-truth, because the effective corporate tax rate in the US is actually closer to 50%, one of the highest in the world.

      That is some happy American Enterprise Institute horseshit. The real, effective corporate tax rate in the US is less than 13%:

      http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/0...

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    35. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      It will just run automated factories to wipe out all the jobs

      That would be wonderful: all basic human needs met without any backbreaking work. You really have to be quite misanthropic to think that that is a bad thing.

    36. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Back when my salary commanded enough for me to not care about the cost of a new tv I absolutely did make the choice to support local businesses.

      These days my salary contributes to upkeep of my house and a spouse that doesn't make as much as I do so it becomes more about buying only the things we need so we can save to have a vacation where we have to find the cheapest everything.

      This is not a complaint, I'm much happier in my personal life with a better work balance so its a tradeoff I actually chose to make. Many people don't get the chance to choose. I quit my last job because I saw the direction of the company. Two years later the rest of my department is all gone now. Some quit, and some fired. The phrase "it's just business" has been taken way too far. Ben and Jerry knew it when they founded their ice cream company and funded lots of community activities which turn one-off customers into loyal fans so it was good for the bottom line. The problem is, now you have a larger company owning them and an established name and corporate responsibility is no longer a driving force behind the company operation beyond the terms that Ben and Jerry forced during the buyout.

      The problem is companies always have to make more money. It's not enough to be profitable, you have to become more and more profitable. Look at the dismantling of IBM as they shed everything that made them a household name and now are just programmers for hire that do large poor quality work. They make a lot of money though! Living on a name that is no longer synonymous with anything in IT. What few products they still had they just sold to Lenovo who will tear it down and strip it to the barebones to maximum profit at lower margins.

      The only company I saw that managed to buck the trend was Apple but even they are succumbing now that they don't have Jobs to curse at investors and drag them kicking and screaming into new markets.

    37. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that Toyota and Nissan are manufactured in the U.S. while Ford is manufactured in Mexico. I bought a Nissan.

      These days you have to research everything you buy. Want a TV made in the U.S.A? Not gonna happen, not one manufacturer that does any quantity.

      Farmers markets are quite alive and well where I am, there are plenty of people supporting locally grown food. Farm to table is actually quite trendy right now. Many people are fighting back and wanting things from local sources and since it costs more they buy less.

      I really wish we would stop calling it free trade when the reality is that we are paying for it as the other country is exporting far more than we are importing. Free trade with Germany, Japan, even England makes sense as they buy American often. All free trades agreements should come with an expiration if they are multiple consecutive years where one country is exporting more than they are importing. This could be a sliding scale, if we are close then call it good, but if we are far off then expire it fast.

    38. Re:And it all comes down to greed by thesupraman · · Score: 1

      Did you ask your English teacher to teach you basic grammar? Just wondering..
      I would suggest your education loans and CS degree were at a minimum a waste, in fact I truely wonder how you got one..

      Oh,and its interesting that you assume American made stuff is somehow better ;) Its great to claim supporting local products is
      supporting local jobs, but dont try and paint that as 'better quality', often it is not.

    39. Re:And it all comes down to greed by thesupraman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And big debts.. Or those hard working parents 'helped'.
      people have come to misunderstand the term 'own' these days..

    40. Re:And it all comes down to greed by diamondmagic · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No rule of law is Somalia.

      Total authoritarian rule is North Korea.

      The middle is Capitalism: It proscribes rule of law, things like ownership of resources, voluntary exchange, don't take other people's stuff, enforcement of contracts, and presumes the existence of a justice system.

      There's no reason to believe that "rah, rah, [middle of the road] free market capitalism" will lead you to Somalia: Right now it seems to be doing a pretty good job of leading us to corporatism, and at the extreme this becomes fascism.

    41. Re:And it all comes down to greed by mjwx · · Score: 1

      When you bought that foreign car, you voted with your money that auto workers in that country are better than domestic ones.

      a lot of fords and chevys are made in mexico, and a lot of foreign brands are made in US. careful when you fling your jingoistic mud.

      Yup, the all 'Merican Camaro is an Australian designed car made in Canada?

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    42. Re: And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why not try harder and earn a few more bucks?

      Since that works so well for the janitor at McDonalds.

      Congratulations on being a billionaire because you're such a hard worker, though!

    43. Re:And it all comes down to greed by sjames · · Score: 2

      I provided a reference with real figures. You provided a poorly crafted insult.

    44. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >

      For instance, UBER is a great capitalist solution to the problem of transportation, requiring no new infrastructure. Eventually some regulation will be required to make it safer, but it's a great working solution.

      What about maintaining the broken infrastructure that already exists? UBER doesn't pay for the roads, yet it makes a profit off the public commons. And don't tell me that UBER drivers are paying their fair share to maintain the roads either. It's just another case of socializing the cost of a business and privatizing the profits.

    45. Re:And it all comes down to greed by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Only got yourself to blame, bub.

      Hardly. The concepts of "free trade" are to blame. In this case the notion that "free trade" is "free" when the playing field isn't level is plainly absurd. The end result is the government indirectly moves manufacturing overseas by subsidizing their lack of worker care.

    46. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 1

      You're trying to paint cause and effect as a vicious circle when really it's management and shareholders trying to squeeze blood from a stone and then bitching when their hand hurts.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    47. Re: And it all comes down to greed by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      I know two people who've gone bankrupt (I know because I was on the list they had to submit to the courts as a creditor; they still have to pay income tax on borrowed un-repaid money). Didn't appear to affect their lifestyle much if at all.

    48. Re:And it all comes down to greed by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      How do you objectively define excess? I can live very well (in the US) on under $20k/year, but most people consider that poor. Subjectively, I would say anything higher than $30k/yr is excess, do you agree? The world median income is under $10k/yr. Most people in the US are greedy then, no?

    49. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "When you bought that TV from China, you voted with your money that their workers are better than domestic ones."

      No, all you did was confirm that this was all you were able to afford thanks to current wages.

    50. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But can we talk about all the "middle" Capitalist states like Italy and Japan which are illegally dumping waste and overfishing off the coast of Somalia? The role of capitalism is explicit in most damaged and struggling parts of the globe. Good point on fascism, though, there were some good thinkpieces earlier this week about how Donald Trump and the corporate culture he represents are arguably fascist.

    51. Re:And it all comes down to greed by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      Zero debt (a large part of the reason I was able to do this). No kids. Family sizes have been shrinking since the 1960's.

    52. Re: And it all comes down to greed by jader3rd · · Score: 1

      And how do the rulers know?

      Preferably by reading Adam Smith's "On the Wealth of Nations".

    53. Re: And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why I put some polysorbate-80, Bisphenol-A and a little nasty that increases oxidative damage to your mitochondriae
      into your ice cream last night. If only I could get you to eat it every day, but even so it will cause you testicular inflammation
      and have your leydig cells produce less testosterone. You don't need it, there is no good reason why you should have to run around with
      high levels of a hormone that just makes you and everybody else around you unhappy. We know what's good for you,
      what is good for all of us and that is for you to grow breasts and become passive and subservient. Thank you and remember
      to treat yourself right with Maggie Sanger's tasty Eucreme!

    54. Re:And it all comes down to greed by nnull · · Score: 1

      This is something worse than capitalism. Our productivity is lower than what it used to be. The high turnover with low pay isn't working out. Quality is suffering, production is suffering. It's more that lowering our standards in education has brought us to this level (High immigration of unskilled low cost labor that people think they're taking advantage without realizing the long term consequences and costs associated with doing so). And also the idiot managers and shareholders.

      Quality control issues, customer complaints, more accidents, legal fees, cost overruns (Owners and managers don't know how to count anymore), idiotic government policies, everything is making costs explode because of this and at the same time, trying to adopt more automation in this country is resulting in absolute failure because of the difficulty of finding qualified people to repair or run these machines. I'm sure many people that work in American plants see this. I see a lot of places that used to have safe work environments being turned into 60 hours a week sweat shops that are just falling apart one by one (Overtime is out of control in many places). Meanwhile in Europe, productivity is higher with less working hours (Call it what you want, but they make enough money to take care of their people and also have a free market capitalistic system).

    55. Re: And it all comes down to greed by nnull · · Score: 1

      When you dumb down your population enough, this ends up being true.

    56. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *Degrees* are NOT a guarantee to a decent life. (ftfy)

    57. Re:And it all comes down to greed by nnull · · Score: 1

      Sadly, the employers are no longer lying when they say they can't find qualified workers. This situation has been going on for such a long time that we no longer have qualified people anymore unless they're over the age of 50.

    58. Re:And it all comes down to greed by sjames · · Score: 1

      I think most of us recognize it when we see it, but keep stirring up that mud! In fact, I did set a few parameters for it.

      As for the world comment, the cost of living in the area matters a lot as well. In some places, that $10k would get 3 or 4 months living in an apartment that barely meets code but wouldn't pay for utilities so you'd be put on the street anyway.

      I would say though that wanting to live somewhere around the median for one's region isn't greedy. Wanting enough in a single year to be able to retire on with a median lifestyle is.

    59. Re:And it all comes down to greed by WoodburyMan · · Score: 1

      5th Gen 2010-2015 Zeta based models only were assembled in Canada. Parts are sourced worldwide, including many in the U.S. still. Zeta platform design was done in Australia by Holden for the VE (2007+) Commode. My (Imported) Pontiac G8 (Imported LHD VE Commodore on Zeta) has an powertrain made in the U.S., parts made and assembled in Australia, with parts from South Korea, and New Zealand as well. 3rd brake assembly like on my GTO (Imported LHD Monaro from Australia) used to say Made in New Zealand. Needless to say cars are worldwide manufacturers platform no matter what vehicle you drive, whether the automaker is "Domestic" or "Foreign".

    60. Re:And it all comes down to greed by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      That claim is such utter bullshit that it isn't even worth for a citation. Use your head, man. I mean, how utterly ignorant can you be?

      Yes, it's worth a citation. In fact, I have a couple for you. Here's a Fortune Magazine article that shows my claim is true. There's even a nifty graph for you to look at and not understand.

      http://fortune.com/2015/04/13/...

      https://fortunedotcom.files.wo...

      http://nelp.org/publication/gr...

      the fact is that the US has one of the highest effective corporate tax rates in the world (go look it up).

      Yeah, I looked it up:

      http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ex...

      And here's the full (peer-reviewed) article, for your perusal. Let's hope you are more capable of perusal than you are of simple Google searches.

      http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Pa...

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    61. Re:And it all comes down to greed by WoodburyMan · · Score: 1

      Meant to add the new 6th Gen 2016+ are Alpha based, which is entirely new frame based off Cadillac ATS.

    62. Re:And it all comes down to greed by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Cue ever-decreasing circle as consumers earn less and want even more for it, in the hope of compensating for their shrinking earnings, thus repeating the circle. No single tier here is to blame; we ALL are in a more abstract manner. The blame lies squarely with basic human nature and the words "I want".

      And yet that nature didn't stop us from enforcing enviromental standards. Because it turns out "human nature" is just a bunch of inherited instincts that can be overruled by reason and managed by the society through regulation and ideology. The only question is whether this is done in time to save capitalism, like after WWII, or if the current crisis will be the final one.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    63. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I provided a reference with real figures.

      And I explained at length to you why you are misinterpreting those result.

      You provided a poorly crafted insult.

      You aren't even worth a well crafted insult.

    64. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Health care would benefit from this approach too. If health care providers were legally required to post all prices up front (regulation) and the import of foreign drugs and insurance was legal (deregulation), you'd have a combination of government action and market forces that would go a long way to solving the health care mess and keeping a lid on prices.

      Sadly, health care has a few properties which make it impossible to work well for patients in a free market system. Patients are almost never well-informed enough to make decisions in their own best interest - they must trust their physician. Worse yet - in emergency situations, the patient and his or her family do not have the option to shop around for a better deal. In non-emergency situations, they are still limited to those choices their insurance provider decides to allow.

    65. Re:And it all comes down to greed by ultranova · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Only got yourself to blame, bub.

      Only if you aren't familiar with the concept of false consciousness. Your job got shipped overseas, so now you can only afford imported goods. You voted for a candidate because there's only two choices and the other is outright insane. You didn't have a choice and thus are not to blame.

      Simply admit you fell for the lies of a conman, join your local labour union or comparable organization, and push it ever leftward. The only thing the system wants or needs from you is your support, overt or silent, so refuse to give it unless you get something in return, besides dreams of making it rich and getting to be the oppressor yourself.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    66. Re:And it all comes down to greed by sjames · · Score: 1

      You spun a yarn without even a shred of fact to back it up. I can do that too, but it has no place in this discussion.

    67. Re: And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You want to steal from others what you did not earn: Greedy.

      Get fucked, theif.

    68. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you really think people ask to train their replacements?

    69. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's worth a citation.

      No, it's not. The claim is bullshit because it computes meaningless numbers for a meaningless group of people. And even taken at face value, it doesn't tell you anything about who is responsible for keeping wages down (as I was saying, it's mainly government policy, plus some competition from abroad).

      Yeah, I looked it up:

      Again, you point to data about average actual direct corporate taxes paid. I told you why those numbers are irrelevant. What matters is the effective marginal rate, and that is the combination of maximum marginal corporate taxes plus maximum marginal capital gains taxes.

      Here is a Politifact analysis of the US corporate tax rate that doesn't even take into account the capital gains tax:

      http://www.politifact.com/pund...

      We have some of the highest corporate tax rates before and after deductions.

      The loopholes in the US tax code should be eliminated. But, politically, many of the people complaining about low average corporate taxes are the same people who put in those loopholes. That is, the combination of low average corporate tax with high marginal corporate tax is even worse than a uniformly high corporate tax.

      Our capital gains taxes are also extremely high:

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/ro...

      You need to add capital gains and corporate taxes if you want to know how much the US government actually gets from every dollar earned by a corporation:

      http://taxfoundation.org/artic...

      Furthermore, corporate taxation doesn't come from some mysterious pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, it comes from all shareholders, and a large part of those are direct or indirect retirement investments. The higher you make corporate taxes, the less people money people will have to retire on.

      The US needs to sharply lower corporate taxation and capital gains taxes, otherwise both corporations and investors will increasingly go overseas, a process that obviously has already started.

      The papers and news reports you point to are bogus; they compute effective corporate tax rates on worldwide earnings, which isn't relevant to anything.

    70. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      And here's the full (peer-reviewed) article

      Peer reviewed? That's a technical report, and a politically motivated at that. Even if it were peer reviewed, that would tell you little about its accuracy.

    71. Re:And it all comes down to greed by gordo3000 · · Score: 1

      actually, anyone in a regular car generally pays for their fair share of road maintenance. It is all large trucks that do not, as road damage goes as the 4th power of axle weight but fuel consumption does not. So most light weight mid sized sedans pay way beyond what they should, while tractor trailers pay well under what they should.

    72. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      You spun a yarn without even a shred of fact to back it up.

      We call that "reasoning". It's what people do when interpreting facts.

      I can do that too

      You've never demonstrated the ability to make a reasoned, logical argument in the many years that I have seen you on Slashdot. In different words, I doubt it.

    73. Re:And it all comes down to greed by sjames · · Score: 1

      You have to present some facts before you can reason about them.

      Otherwise there's nothing to distinguish the claim that Donald Trump obviously took all that extra money and shoved it up his ass for a rainy day from something resembling reality.

    74. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      In the long run it's probably good, but only if the fruits of automation is shared by all people. With the current economic model, shareholders will benefit, but unskilled workers will just get the shaft.

    75. Re:And it all comes down to greed by geoskd · · Score: 1

      That would be wonderful: all basic human needs met without any backbreaking work. You really have to be quite misanthropic to think that that is a bad thing.

      It's not a bad thing. The bad comes from what humanity will do when it reaches that stage. Instead of sharing the freedom and wealth that this state of affairs will bring, a small percentage of the population will benefit from it and capitalism will work to effectively exclude the vast majority of the population. These excluded souls will be pushed to extinction and will either fight back or die.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    76. Re:And it all comes down to greed by geoskd · · Score: 2

      And the fact that "total wages and salaries last year amounted to $7.1 trillion, or 42.5 percent of the entire economy [...] lower than in any year previously measured" is also hardly surprising: given that the US government keeps on piling mandates on employers, employers are satisfying those mandates in lieu of raises.

      Thats just plain crap. Regulation does not help wages nor hurt it. If that were the case, then deregulation of the airline industry would have increased wages for pilots and air crews. In reality wages for these groups have been declining just like everyone else. Deregulation of the utilities? Same effect, declining wages just like everything else. The reality is that regulation is the bogeyman that the wealthy have pushed to try to give the bottom 20% something other than corporate greed vis-a-vis capitalism to rail against. In effect, its a giant con. They dont actually expect to eliminate regulation, but on the off chance that they do succeed and regulation is reduced, it simply allows corporations to gain greater profits by sacrificing health and safety for employees and the general public: a double win for the rich and powerful.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    77. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Regulation does not help wages nor hurt it. If that were the case, then deregulation of the airline industry would have increased wages for pilots and air crews.

      Airline deregulation deregulated the way trip prices, airline tickets, and airline routes are sold. It has next to nothing to do with the regulation of employment. (I would actually expect deregulation of the airline industry to decrease salaries for pilots, and employment regulations of pilots to further decrease their salaries.)

      The reality is that regulation is the bogeyman

      The reality is that you don't have the faintest idea of what you are talking about.

    78. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No rule of law is Somalia.

      Total authoritarian rule is North Korea.

      And neither one is by design. Something done by accident is a result that: (a) may not be repeatable; (b) may not show what is possible when someone tries to do something intentionally.

    79. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      That's bullshit. If everything can be produced at zero cost, there is no scarcity and hence no money or economics at all. If there is oppression at that point, it's not due to capitalism.

      Really, things getting produced cheaper is a universal good for humanity. Your thinking is the thinking of a Luddite.

    80. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      In the long run it's probably good, but only if the fruits of automation is shared by all people.

      The fruits of automation are always shared by all people.

      With the current economic model, shareholders will benefit,

      Yes. Shareholders like you and me. That's where your retirement comes from.

      but unskilled workers will just get the shaft.

      Correct. They need to learn skills that make them useful to their fellow human beings. And a free market tells them what those skill are.

    81. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      You have to present some facts before you can reason about them.

      You presented the facts in your link. I explained to you why your (and the article's) interpretation of those facts was wrong.

      Donald Trump

      Ah, Donald Trump. I hope your hair is better than his, because your arguments certainly aren't.

    82. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well Canada is in America.
      The U.S.A is not the only country that can claim to be an american country.

    83. Re:And it all comes down to greed by sjames · · Score: 1

      No, you fabricated a story without a single shred of evidence to support your position.

      It's just a big fat [citation needed]

    84. Re:And it all comes down to greed by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      What???

      What's the difference if an Uber driver makes the money or a traditional taxi driver makes the money? Maybe taxi drivers should be driving for Uber and making money for themselves instead of making money for the wealthy people who own taxi medallions?

    85. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Moderation is not intended to be used, nor should it be to censure editorial opinion. If you want to argue a point, you're going to have to do you're own work rather than relying on a totalitarian regime to exterminate your enemy for you.
      Unless your a gay illegal alien with no healthcare, then you need somebody to force an agenda down people's throats that nobody wants.

    86. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the "free market" entitles you to nothing of it!

      So in the end we get to rape and sack the Earth for nothing.

      Captcha: expedite

    87. Re: And it all comes down to greed by adhdengineer · · Score: 1

      does it come in strawberry flavour?

    88. Re:And it all comes down to greed by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      You need to add capital gains and corporate taxes if you want to know how much the US government actually gets from every dollar earned by a corporation:

      http://taxfoundation.org/artic... [taxfoundation.org]

      I thought you objected to politically-motivated reports.

      The papers and news reports you point to are bogus

      Says the guy who just cited tax foundation dot org.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    89. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is some happy American Enterprise Institute horseshit. The real, effective corporate tax rate in the US is less than 13%:

      That statement, while probably true, entirely misses the point.

      The official tax rate for US corporations is 35%. A rational business actor in a capitalist system seeks to minimize cash outflow, including taxes. Other countries have much lower tax rates, and it is fairly easy to set up a multinational entity where cash and profits go to the other countries that have much lower tax rates.

      Now we have a situation where the US receives zero tax from multinationals instead of 13%. If the US had lowered its corporate income tax rates, perhaps the US would actually be receiving 13% from those multinationals instead of 0.

    90. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I dont want more product for less money. I want a quality product that does what its supposed to.

      If you save $5 by buying a cheaper toaster.. but its so cheaply made it wont toast bread.... have you really saved $5?

    91. Re:And it all comes down to greed by houghi · · Score: 1

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?... Wealth Inequality in America
      So yes, there is a tier to blame. That is the so called 1% and the fact that politicians obide to them.

      This is not the first time this sort of things has happend. History will repeat itself.

      If the CEO of a company earns 500 times that of another person, there is one person to blame: the CEO. I would also not say no, but that does not mean that I would then not become part of the problem.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    92. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Martin+Blank · · Score: 2

      The taxi industry is a poor example if you're looking for something that needs sympathy. Getting in as anything other than a hired driver is nearly impossible. Look at the prices of taxi medallions. In Chicago, a medallion went for about $70K in 2007 before skyrocketing to $357,000 in 2013, then falling back to $270,000 earlier this year. In New York City, it's even worse: they were going for around $850,000 earlier this year, down from $1.2 million in early 2014.

      There's also the problem of having a cab around when you want one. Some cities are great for this; the aforementioned Chicago and NYC are examples of places where it's generally easy to get a cab. But in much of Southern California or the Dallas suburbs, cabs are relatively rare, and even when calling the company, the wait can be significantly over an hour compared to an Uber or Lyft pickup time of usually only a few minutes.

      In any case, if the only reason that a new industry is morally wrong is because it puts people out of work, then almost every industry today is morally wrong. The tractor industry would be wrong because it put farm workers out of work. The airlines would be morally wrong because they put ships' crews out of work. The printer companies would be morally wrong because they put typing pools out of work. And yet no one really claims this because it's not true.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    93. Re: And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is that you Hillary?

    94. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Martin+Blank · · Score: 2

      To proscribe is to prohibit. Perhaps you meant prescribe, or some other word, but using "proscribe" completely flips the meaning of your statement.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    95. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "When you bought that foreign car, you voted with your money that auto workers in that country are better than domestic ones."

      They -are- better... hows that my fault?

    96. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      all basic human needs met
      without any backbreaking work

      You're making a lot of assumptions there.

    97. Re:And it all comes down to greed by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      That statement, while probably true, entirely misses the point.

      Since I was responding to the guy who claimed the effective US corporate income tax rate was over 50%, I'd say it's exactly on point.

      Now we have a situation where the US receives zero tax from multinationals instead of 13%. If the US had lowered its corporate income tax rates, perhaps the US would actually be receiving 13% from those multinationals instead of 0.

      I guarantee, if we were collecting 13% from multinationals, the line out of the American Enterprise Institute would be, "This is unacceptable! We need to make the tax rate 0% on corporations so we can be just like Bonaire, Sint Eustatius, and Saba, where rich people are left alone and colored people serve them drinks!"

      Here are some countries that have 0% corporate income tax:
      Bahamas
      Bahrain
      Bermuda
      Bonaire, Saint Eustatius and Saba
      Cayman Islands
      Guernsey
      Isle of Man
      Jersey
      Vanuatu

      You know what they all have in common? You or I can't live there unless we win the lottery, and the only jobs in those countries are hotel maid and lickspittle.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    98. Re: And it all comes down to greed by xenoc_1 · · Score: 1

      When I bought my made in USA Zenith TV (before the sellout to LG) I most certainly was not voting with my dollars for my US BigGreenFinSvcsCo to end up with 18 of our 19 person team outsourced to INFY with mixed H-1B and offshored. If anything I was voting for the company that had invented the US digital TV standard. But the big smart money types sold it out to be just a shell branding. When I bought my Saturn car and GMC AWD van, both good products, I wasn't voting for GM to make most of its "US vehicles" in Mexico.

      That whole "vote with your dollars" trope at this point in the USA's decline, is as meaningless as the propaganda that "Your vote counts" and "This is the most important election of..."

      No. Not when you don't have meaningful input into what's/who's on the ballot. Telling people that they should have voted, or by purchasing, "voted in the market", differently, as if that would have made any difference, is part of the propaganda. It's also part of the deliberate disempowerment of the citizenry. We're supposed to think that voting is the only thing we can or should do, and believe that that's enough. When it clearly isn't.

      But when the rare street-level protests happen, like Occupy or anti-globalist protests, the mainstream Media-Industrial-Complex goes to work to marginalize, demonize, scoff at, or otherwise distract the general public from the message of the protestors. As to workers, where are the general strikes across the country, across all industries, that are often effective in other countries to demand, and get, change?

      Nowhere. Because even the unions are easily turned against each other (see, any airline).

      So don't go lecturing people for "voting" the wrong way, whether with their dollars or their vote. The real work has to happen long before those votes.

    99. Re:And it all comes down to greed by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      Welcome to capitalism, baby. Greed, for lack of a better term, is good. You may want to look into alternative economic models.

      I certainly do want to look into alternative economic models. Because this Capitalism thing sucks for most people.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    100. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Ryanrule · · Score: 1

      when was japan cheap labor?

    101. Re:And it all comes down to greed by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      I did NOT ask my employer to ship my job overseas. I did NOT ask that they move the division overseas. I did NOT ask to train some Chinese guy about what a pointers and basic programming...

      You most certainly did! When you reelected the politicians who write tax deals (free trade) to do exactly that! You should be more careful what you vote for!

      I voted for the people who best represented my interests. They didn't win. Got any more advice?

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    102. Re: And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. We just don't have a real choice in much of anything these days. Pretending like we do and therefore are complicit is just a blame shifting tactic. But as long as a large percentage of the county is stupid enough to buy that lie, I don't know what we can do about it.

    103. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      I thought you objected to politically-motivated reports.

      Yes, I most certainly do. What I mean by that is that, based on its content, it's obvious Kleinbard's paper is political, not scientific. I didn't attack the paper for who wrote it. (Kleinbard doesn't consistently take progressive viewpoints.)

      Says the guy who just cited tax foundation dot org.

      I didn't "cite" it, which would imply that we are having an argument and I provided it as support for my side. I gave you a link to it because it provides a pretty clear explanation to you of an obvious and basic economic fact, namely that corporate profits are taxed not just as corporate taxes, but also as income. And someone's incentive to invest in corporations depends on what is left over after both taxes are applied.

    104. Re:And it all comes down to greed by dywolf · · Score: 1

      No the effective corporate rate is closer to 13%.
      50% truly is just something you pulled out of your arse.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    105. Re:And it all comes down to greed by dywolf · · Score: 1

      He just wants to believe that in a country were GE, the worlds largest company (and largest polluter, and largest single economic entity that isn't a country) not only paid zero taxes last year, but got a refund, that they and other corporations like them are somehow paying more taxes than they are required to.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    106. Re:And it all comes down to greed by dywolf · · Score: 1

      The US needs to sharply lower corporate taxation and capital gains taxes, otherwise both corporations and investors will increasingly go overseas, a process that obviously has already started.

      Translation: Rich people need more money.

      Safe to say you've earned your shill pay today.
      A truly monumental effort. I applaud you.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    107. Re:And it all comes down to greed by tepples · · Score: 1

      Your job got shipped overseas, so now you can only afford imported goods.

      The third choice is to start your own business.

      You voted for a candidate because there's only two choices and the other is outright insane.

      The third choice is to run for office.

    108. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      No the effective corporate rate is closer to 13%

      The term "effective" can have multiple meanings.

      You take it to mean the average corporate tax paid on profits for some subset of corporations. That number is so low because of massive handouts to corporations by politicians, often the same politicians who complain bitterly about corporations not paying enough. It's also largely irrelevant.

      I'm talking about the marginal corporate tax rate plus the marginal taxes on capital gains and dividends; that is what matters for the competitiveness of the US.

      50% truly is just something you pulled out of your arse.

      Not at all. It's quite straightforward actually:

      http://taxfoundation.org/artic...

    109. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Translation: Rich people need more money.

      No. Translation: don't complain if companies invert and if places like Australia, Hong Kong, and Singapore do better if we keep engaging in stupid economic policy.

      Safe to say you've earned your shill pay today.

      I sure hope so, my "shill pay" being the return on my retirement funds. I don't want to have to depend on social security just because selfish and stupid people like you wreck the American stock market.

    110. Re:And it all comes down to greed by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      That would be wonderful: all basic human needs met without any backbreaking work.

      You're making a mighty big assumption about the distribution of profits.

    111. Re:And it all comes down to greed by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      That's bullshit. If everything can be produced at zero cost, there is no scarcity and hence no money or economics at all.

      Labor does not represent 100% of cost. Even with perfect automation products will not be free.

    112. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why did you get a loan for what is, ostensibly, a self-improvement scheme? People don't laugh at you because it's university, but they should. If you had said you got a loan to see Tony Robbins, they'd laugh at you.

      University is there to improve YOU, not to make you more money from a job. Very few jobs require university. Frankly, I have done both of the most common IT jobs slashdotters have in many companies, some so large I'm certain you'd know them! I have no degree. Just a LOT of experience. As for wages, I earn the average. I am sure university could net me another 5%. You know what? That benefit is eaten up by being 4+ years behind in the job market (no earnings) and by student loans. It is possible to get ahead by pushing hard with university, but in the end, I have worked it all out, and for me, it's just not worth it. My retirement contributions will lead me to a comfortable retirement and that extra life experience taught me to budget well enough I save far more than 5% on everything that my university grad co-workers can't figure out (Yeah, guess what, you're not going to eat ramen and KD forever. I knew how to save on nice clothes, meat, buying a car, and a house before you graduated because I was working and dealing with the real world).

      Fuck killing yourself with university debt to work at the Google slave shop. IMHO 95%+ of companies *will* take experience over education, even when their stupid offer says they won't (I'm working at a company that "requires" 5 years of university right now, they even investigate to make sure you have it if you claim you do. I claimed nothing, but my experience == interview, which == hired---never had an interview without a job offer yet).

      The biggest liars out there are universities. Rather than pimping themselves out as paragons of education where you go to learn topics in depth, they've perpetuated this bullshit lie that university == job security. Don't drink the kool-aid unless you want to be a doctor (I hear even for that there's odd ways around it still) or you'd like to do structural engineering. And if you want to be a lawyer, don't, there's way too many already.

    113. Re:And it all comes down to greed by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      Sadly there don't seem to be any workable ideas. I looked around and all the current writing seems to be pie in the sky stuff.

    114. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the 1950's

    115. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      If human needs are met, then we all shouldn't work so much, and enjoy life more. Capitalism is very efficient at organizing people to produce increasingly larger GDP. In other words, it encourages everybody to work a lot. At some point, we've produced enough for everybody, so it's better for everybody if we just took a break and enjoyed life more. If automation is covering the basic needs, we should transition into an economy that doesn't require us to work so much. Let the production fall. Increasing production further just increases our consumption of natural resources and hastens our eventual destruction.

    116. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "But men labor under a mistake. The better part of the man is soon plowed into the soil for compost. By a seeming fate, commonly called necessity, they are employed, as it says in an old book, laying up treasures which moth and rust will corrupt and thieves break through and steal. It is a fool's life, as they will find when they get to the end of it, if not before." - http://thoreau.eserver.org/walden1a.html

      Of course, if any of us left the modern "civilized" world to go live peacefully in the woods by a lake, they'd call us suspicious terrorists, serial killer, or insane and lock us up.

    117. Re:And it all comes down to greed by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      You still have not provided a single bit of evidence that the statement "Over 40% of US workers make less than $15/hr". This was a statement you said was so ridiculous as to be laughable, so put up or shut up.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    118. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Labor does not represent 100% of cost. Even with perfect automation products will not be free.

      Terms like "cost" and "free" don't make any sense when nobody has anything to trade.

      My point is that geoskd's dire predictions are worthless:

      The bad comes from what humanity will do when it reaches that stage. Instead of sharing the freedom and wealth that this state of affairs will bring, a small percentage of the population will benefit from it and capitalism will work to effectively exclude the vast majority of the population.

      Capitalism requires a market. If most people are not market participants, then you don't have capitalism. Should "a small percentage of the population" hold the rest of the population hostage in that situation, that's not capitalism, it's simple totalitarianism.

      But there is an even more basic error with geoskd's premise: when machines can make most of our material needs for free, labor won't lose any value. There is an infinite demand for labor.

    119. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      No, I'm not. In fact, currently_awake's premise is wrong. If all factories are automated, it will simply mean that everybody will work in non-manufacturing sectors and manufacturing becomes economically insignificant. Manufacturing already is only 12% of GDP in the US.

    120. Re:And it all comes down to greed by ultranova · · Score: 1

      The third choice is to start your own business.

      No, it isn't, because you have neither a business idea, capital, nor business skills. This is yet another example of false consciousness, a lie told by the system to vilify its victims.

      The third choice is to run for office.

      You will lose without backing. To get backing you must make deals. Those deals transform you into one of the two candidates, since you're now owned by the same people. This, too, is a mirage of a choice built by the system. Such illusions mask the ugly reality, which makes flaws difficult to repair. And frankly, we can't afford that anymore: we're juggling an ever-growing list of issues caused by wilful stupidity, and if it doesn't stop we are going to drop one of them on our toes again.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    121. Re:And it all comes down to greed by ultranova · · Score: 1

      But there is an even more basic error with geoskd's premise: when machines can make most of our material needs for free, labor won't lose any value. There is an infinite demand for labor.

      Maybe in the long term, but that doesn't help someone who needs to pay his rent today, not in a few centuries.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    122. Re:And it all comes down to greed by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      Terms like "cost" and "free" don't make any sense when nobody has anything to trade.

      The word "nobody" is misleading. There will still be plenty of individuals with things to trade after the laborers with less value than robots starve to death.

      Should "a small percentage of the population" hold the rest of the population hostage in that situation, that's not capitalism, it's simple totalitarianism.

      You're confusing political systems with economic systems.

      But there is an even more basic error with geoskd's premise: when machines can make most of our material needs for free, labor won't lose any value. There is an infinite demand for labor.

      Actually no. There are infinite wants, but a diminishing marginal utility of wealth. There is infinite demand for labor only at price zero.

    123. Re:And it all comes down to greed by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      If it were only the factories that automated then yes. The service sector seems to be taking to automation quite well so I wouldn't get too comfortable with that concept.

    124. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      This was a statement you said was so ridiculous as to be laughable, so put up or shut up.

      I did: The claim is bullshit because it computes meaningless numbers ["hourly wage"] for a meaningless group of people ["all workers"].

      The NELP paper is misusing that number in its own analysis, by multiplying by the nominal number of work hours to arrive at an annual full time income and then reasoning about that.

      Furthermore, if the number meant what the NELP paper implies it means, it completely contradicts their argument for raising the minimum wage to $15/h: if in some sense "40% of workers" already make that much money, then $15/h is a solid, middle-class income, not a sign of poverty.

      If you think the number has meaning, why don't you clearly state what that meaning is.

    125. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Actually no. There are infinite wants, but a diminishing marginal utility of wealth. There is infinite demand for labor only at price zero.

      Yes, and as material goods become cheaper and cheaper due to automated factories, that demand keeps going up.

      You're confusing political systems with economic systems.

      Not at all; that was the error I was pointing out. When all production is fully automated and a small percentage of the population holds the rest hostage, this ceases to be an economic problem, and hence a problem of capitalism.

      There will still be plenty of individuals with things to trade after the laborers with less value than robots starve to death.

      First of all, you need to read up on comparative advantage. Second, I find it fascinating how people who claim to be concerned about the well being of the working classes start by assuming that the working classes are worthless idiots.

      People have never starved to death because their jobs were eliminated by automation; most simply find better jobs instead.

    126. Re:And it all comes down to greed by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      People have never starved to death because their jobs were eliminated by automation; most simply find better jobs instead.

      This entire discussion is based around the idea that this time is different. If automation of the service sector means that everyone finds jobs in some new fourth sector of the economy that we don't currently know about then the rest of the discussion is moot. I find that unlikely but it is possible.

    127. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      This entire discussion is based around the idea that this time is different. If automation of the service sector

      "Automation of the service sector" is meaningless. There is an infinite number of services that can be provided, and they can't all be automated. If you could really replace every single service sector job with robots, you'd have sentient androids, and in that case, they would probably value their own labor and become market participants.

      This entire discussion is based around the idea that this time is different.

      The discussion started with "automated factories wipe out all the jobs". Obviously, they can't. In fact, as far as the US is concerned, that has already happened, even if "automated" means "ship to China". Now it shifted to automating everything.

      Fact is, we don't need to imagine what happens when a tiny number of people control the means of production, we've had that under feudalism, monarchy, socialism, and other totalitarian forms of government. Never in history have these horrid forms of government been the consequence of capitalism or automation. They have usually been the result of either a real or imaginary military or security threat, or the result of mob rule.

    128. Re:And it all comes down to greed by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      I did: The claim is bullshit because it computes meaningless numbers ["hourly wage"] for a meaningless group of people ["all workers"].

      The NELP paper is misusing that number in its own analysis, by multiplying by the nominal number of work hours to arrive at an annual full time income and then reasoning about that.

      Furthermore, if the number meant what the NELP paper implies it means, it completely contradicts their argument for raising the minimum wage to $15/h: if in some sense "40% of workers" already make that much money, then $15/h is a solid, middle-class income, not a sign of poverty.

      If you think the number has meaning, why don't you clearly state what that meaning is.

      No matter how you slice it, rationalize it and just straight-up bullshit about it, more than 40% of the people who are working are working for less than $15/hr.

      then $15/h is a solid, middle-class income, not a sign of poverty.

      What part of "40% of the workers make less than $15/hr" do you not get? The "less than" part is kind of important.

      The current minimum wage is less than half of your "solid, middle-class income" of $15/hr. And if you add up the incomes of everyone making minimum wage in America it comes to a little more than half as much as the bonuses that get paid out to Wall Street bankers in one year. And we're talking about full-time minimum wage workers ($7.25/hr). And by "Wall Street", they don't include investment bankers in Chicago, San Francisco, Dallas, etc etc. We're only talking about the swells that do their business on a few square blocks on Manhattan island. And we're not talking about their entire incomes, but just the bonuses. So they find more money in their Christmas fucking stockings than all the full-time minimum wage workers in the United States put together. And don't forget, Wall Street bankers don't produce a goddamned thing.

      http://www.businessinsider.com...

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    129. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True, but when you hire a taxi, you are supporting an employee with benefits. With Uber, you are supporting a Republican-style contractor that doesn't have benefits. That is what makes using Uber morally wrong. Uber represents everything that is wrong with the Republicans.

    130. Re:And it all comes down to greed by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      "Automation of the service sector" is meaningless. There is an infinite number of services that can be provided, and they can't all be automated. If you could really replace every single service sector job with robots, you'd have sentient androids, and in that case, they would probably value their own labor and become market participants.

      If we're talking about 100% automation I agree, however what we're more likely to see is a situation more like what has happened with agriculture and manufacturing. What was once a source of many jobs asymptotically approaches zero over time. Within our lifetimes you're going to see a situation where less than 10% of the population can add more value than it costs to employ them. That will still mean nearly a billion people working, but what exactly are the other nine billion going to do? In the past the answer was to move to another sector of the economy, this time that seems unlikely.

    131. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      What part of "40% of the workers make less than $15/hr" do you not get?

      Oh, I get it alright. It's you who doesn't seem to understand what "worker" actually refers to.

      The current minimum wage is less than half of your "solid, middle-class income" of $15/hr.

      And if you're going to have a minimum wage at all, it should indeed be far below a solid middle class income. You can't legislate everybody to be above average. Math, you know.

      And if you add up the incomes of everyone making minimum wage in America it comes to a little more than half as much as the bonuses that get paid out to Wall Street bankers in one year.

      And I should give a fuck... why?

      And don't forget, Wall Street bankers don't produce a goddamned thing.

      No, and I would greatly prefer if people the Clintons and Obama didn't hand these people trillions of tax payer dollars. But other than that, I really don't care how much money they make.

    132. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      . Within our lifetimes you're going to see a situation where less than 10% of the population can add more value than it costs to employ them

      That's assuming they stay with their original careers. But the whole point of having a labor market is that people learn those skills and take those jobs where they are most needed.

      The one thing that really does tend to mess things up is all the regulations for full time employees. I pay more in mandatory health insurance, real estate taxes, and auto licensing fees than I pay for all other living expenses combined. And for my employer to hire me must have cost tens of thousands of dollars, plus many thousands more per year in mandatory fees and taxes.

      That will still mean nearly a billion people working, but what exactly are the other nine billion going to do?

      Who knows? Dog walkers. Game designers. Space explorers. Massage therapists. Prostitutes. Garden designers. Painters. Dancers. Psychiatrists. Nannies. Body guards. Personal fitness instructors. Personal secretaries. There are tons of jobs that only a human can do, and lots of people would love these kinds of personalized services but can't afford them because they are competing against other employers.

    133. Re:And it all comes down to greed by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      No, and I would greatly prefer if people the Clintons and Obama didn't hand these people trillions of tax payer dollars.

      You mean Obama's the one paying all those Wall Street bonuses?

      Damn, no wonder we got us a deficit, amirite?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    134. Re:And it all comes down to greed by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      Totally a typo. Or spell check. Obviously.

      But yes, you are correct.

    135. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you voted for a republican or democrat, you did want all those bad things posted above. They don't have your interests in mind, unless you are an aspiring hedge fund dude..

      If you didn't vote for them, well, sorry, we're outnumbered, just gotta tough it out. That's what majority rule is all about. 49% of us are always gonna get fucked.

    136. Re: And it all comes down to greed by ultranova · · Score: 1

      So what does it mean that capitalism is founded on that very idea, that everyone will do what is in their own best interest?

      It means that the ideological structure of capitalism will eventually get in the way of human progress, which seems to be happening now, and needs to be replaced. The question is, will this happen through reform or revolution?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    137. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      If benefits are what makes it morally right to use taxis over Uber/Lyft, then doesn't that make buying from large chain stores morally better than buying from mom-and-pop stores, since those are often so small that they don't have to provide benefits to their employees?

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    138. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Authoritarianism is a term that is descriptive of the pervasiveness of the state in civil life. Capitalism is a term that is descriptive of the organization of labor and distribution of the means of production in an economy. These terms are orthogonal.

      Let me nerdify that for you: Authoritarianism is like the "lawful" part of alignment in D we follow the law, because it's the law. Capitalism is like the "evil" part of alignment in D fuck what you're going through, I gets mine.

    139. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      You mean Obama's the one paying all those Wall Street bonuses?

      Why would I care about that? I care about the fact that Obama and his predecessors (both Republican and Democrat, but Democrats have generally been worse offenders) take my tax dollars and hand them to Wall St.

      Damn, no wonder we got us a deficit, amirite?

      Yes, you are right: the massive government handouts to corporations, Wall St., and other special interests are a major part of our deficits.

    140. Re:And it all comes down to greed by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      That's assuming they stay with their original careers.

      I'm not assuming that at all, but I get it, you don't think automation, robots or expert networks are going to change much of anything when it comes to the labor market. I disagree, but frankly I hope you're right as the other scenario is going to be ugly.

    141. Re:And it all comes down to greed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      I'm not assuming that at all, but I get it, you don't think automation, robots or expert networks are going to change much of anything when it comes to the labor market.

      They are going to change things massively, as they always have. But people are capable of adaptation to changing labor market conditions, as centuries of experience show.

      However, while capable of adaptation, people don't like change and uncertainty, so if the government gives them a way of avoiding change and adaptation (e.g., by limiting automation or paying workers deemed incapable of adaptation), they are not going to adapt.

      If you tell people with authority that they are helpless and doomed, that it isn't really their responsibility, and that the government is going to provide for them, you have created a self-fulfilling prophecy; and that is going to be ugly.

    142. Re:And it all comes down to greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bought a Honda because I want a domestic car, not an import like a Ford. People do vote with their money- they export the jobs to the third world, we stop buying from them.

      I found this funny. Ford is the most domestic of the three US automakers (Ford, GM, Chrysler). While some Hondas are assembled in the US, most of the parts are made in Japan. They're probably closer to Chrysler than Ford in terms of percentage of US labor used.

      And also remember that different cars may be made in different places. It's possible to buy a Honda that's assembled in Japan and many if not most Fords are assembled in the US.

  5. Unions by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not a surprise really. Right now, unless you happen to live in one of the few states where companies are required to offer you more than simply at-will employment, or you're one of the few people still in a union, you pretty much have few protections against the company deciding to fire you tomorrow, whether in the name of downsizing, outsourcing, or just deciding that they don't want to pay someone with your level of experience instead of getting some fresh undergrad desperate to pay off student loans who'll work for a fraction of your salary.

    And yes, as much as people decry unions, and the abuses that comes with unions, that's your answer in terms of balancing the power. One person alone just doesn't have the power, unless they're being hired for an executive/C-level position. Can unions abuse their power? Absolutely, so stay involved, vote in your union elections, make sure your union reps are doing their jobs. It's sometimes easier said than done, but it can be better than the alternative. That's what we had to do the last time things were like this, roughly 100 years or so ago.

    1. Re:Unions by tomhath · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yea, because the steel workers protected their jobs...oh wait, the steel industry is gone. Well there's the auto industry, unions did a fine job running them into bankruptcy.

      but it can be better than the alternative.

      You think there's only one alternative? I think there are several. First, forget about pensions; 401k plans are much better and have replaced them for most workers. Second, plan on having something you can offer to employers besides the threat of a revolution or strike; good workers can find good jobs.

    2. Re:Unions by khasim · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Second, plan on having something you can offer to employers besides the threat of a revolution or strike; good workers can find good jobs.

      Anything you can do can be taught to someone else willing to work for less.

      Have you so soon forgotten Disney's attempt to replace their techs?
      http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-disney-technology-h1b-20150617-story.html

      Seems that the only thing that stopped that was the publicity it got once the techs started complaining.

    3. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's not unions. It's that the Soviet Union is gone. What's going to happen if you crush the unions and export all the jobs now? The proletariat will join ISIS? The USSR was shit, but it served to keep the capitalists honest. Without that threat of the workers going commie there's nothing stopping them from rolling back the clock to 1850.

    4. Re:Unions by misexistentialist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Instead of spending millions lobbying why don't the unions start worker-owned companies? Because they can't cease making demands of "capitalists" anymore than a flea can jump off a plump dog

    5. Re:Unions by Rhywden · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'm not quite sure why you're lambasting him for suggestion unions by listing the times where unions were indeed a hindrance... because he made this very point himself:

      Can unions abuse their power? Absolutely, so stay involved, vote in your union elections, make sure your union reps are doing their jobs.

      Or did you only read what you wanted to read? In fact, I think you stopped thinking the moment you read the word "unions".

    6. Re:Unions by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      The problem is half the people in the workforce are below average.

      As an employer, the issue isn't greed: the next person I am going to have to fire doesn't perform at a level that I can break even on his time. If I could command higher billing rates for him, I might be able to just barely break even, but ultimately he isn't able to do anything that a new graduate would, at 35% lower salary. He will be able to get another job, but he will have a real pay cut.

      When margins get compressed a business cannot carry dead weight.

    7. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, because the steel workers protected their jobs...oh wait, the steel industry is gone. Well there's the auto industry, unions did a fine job running them into bankruptcy.

      but it can be better than the alternative.

      You think there's only one alternative? I think there are several. First, forget about pensions; 401k plans are much better and have replaced them for most workers. Second, plan on having something you can offer to employers besides the threat of a revolution or strike; good workers can find good jobs.

      401K, propping up the value of executive stock compensation since the 1980s.

    8. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most unions are smoked already. Union busting became so tiresome, that the corps/politicians decided to ship off manual labor to China in the 70s onward as an end game. Unions stand no chance now and strikes are just excuses to outsource more labor. Now the corporations watching a race to the bottom to see how little people will work in the USA while somehow housing and living expenses have sky rocketed. The key is to not play their game, live with family and try and start your own business if you can't get a good paying job. An educated mind still has the advantage, but there are no guarantees in life.

    9. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > The problem is half the people in the workforce are below average.
      That's an utterly meaningless statement.

      It's irrelevant how many people are below or above average (and I'm assuming you mean median, since that's the only average for which you can make that statement) . What matters is how many are within the tolerance levels to be able to their job well.

      If you hire the top 100 people in the world in their trade or profession, then half of them will be below their local average too. But that doesn't make them poor employees, it just makes you bad at statistics.

    10. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Steel industry has modernized is what it has done, and spread out all over the world, as countries decided they wanted to have a piece of the pie, so to speak.

      You're just relying on what you've been told is the problem.

      Same with the auto industry. It wasn't the unions that caused bankruptcy, if they did, then why did VW remain solvent? No, it was the executive staff who was their own worst enemy.

      The 401K isn't nearly as important in protecting our elderly as Social Security, and you know who wants to kill that, and having something to offer to employers requires them to have some intent to offer you something in exchange for it.

      The problem being...without the threat of revolution or strike, they won't. They're too short-sighted to behave otherwise.

    11. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice posture, and of course I can't know the specifics, but if you are doing "break even analysis" on your employee roles, chances are you have a higher than 15% turnover rate, and most employees are leaving for better and higher paying jobs. I'm not critical of your set up, I'm just confirming that older workers don't put up with the "margin" bullshit. and the younger workers who understand what you are talking about could care less.
      .The truth is if you are stuck at a company past the vesting period, you are probably in the upper third of pay, or you have absolutely no value to other companies. The younger generations are smart enough to realize that "old school" philosophies are extinct. Piece of shit companies are a dime a dozen and are designed to be walked on like stepping stones to the next gig that will pay more, or go out of business. Nobody gives a shit about companies anymore, because they don't really serve any function other than accounting and tax withholding.

    12. Re:Unions by TWX · · Score: 1

      You think there's only one alternative? I think there are several. First, forget about pensions; 401k plans are much better and have replaced them for most workers.

      How are defined-contribution plans better than defined-benefit plans?

      If the 401k plan wasn't tied to the specific company I might be able to see your argument, but given that it's tied to the employer and all of the things that employer could do (ie, ride the company off the rails) I don't see how it could be considered better.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    13. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Instead of spending millions lobbying why don't the unions start worker-owned companies?

      Because if you actually thought about this rather than launching into your anti-union mindset, you'd understand why.

    14. Re:Unions by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 2

      The problem is half the people in the workforce are below average.

      As an employer, the issue isn't greed

      of course not! damn those mathematicians and their definitions!

      you sure do sound like a swell boss! smart too, even!

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    15. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Forgot to add, the other thing that is working against you. Many more workers have absolutely no compunction about walking off a job, moving back in with the parents and living on various unemployment and other government assistance. I am talking about 25 y/o and up. They are not happy about it, but they have a MUCH lower threshold for corporate bullwhip than I have assimilated to.
      The willingness of the government to swap roles with corporations has been going on since at least WWII. I don't see it stopping till the wealth distribution to the third world catches up a little more. It's certainly a more complicated dynamic than can be explained by the latest round of buffoons to the Facebook kids.

    16. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Inconvenient fact -the auto industry is highly unionized in Germany and Japan - Doesn't seem to hinder their success.

    17. Re:Unions by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      401K, propping up the value of executive stock compensation since the 1980s.

      Huh? What does a 401k plan have to do with "executive stock compensation"?

    18. Re:Unions by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1, Troll

      Right now, unless you happen to live in one of the few states where companies are required to offer you more than simply at-will employment, or you're one of the few people still in a union, you pretty much have few protections against the company deciding to fire you tomorrow,

      Ah, yes, because that's exactly what skilled people want: getting paid and hired/fired not based on how good they are or how much they contribute to a company, but based on criteria like seniority and other kinds of b.s. that unions come up with.

      And yes, as much as people decry unions, and the abuses that comes with unions, that's your answer in terms of balancing the power. One person alone just doesn't have the power, unless they're being hired for an executive/C-level position.

      Software developers, engineers, and other professionals have no problem negotiating good working conditions for themselves. Union membership is down to 11% of the workforce in the US, for the simple reason that almost nobody wants to be a member of a union. You'd get laughed out of the room if you tried to unionize the software developers where I work; and if you succeeded, probably half of them would just leave.

    19. Re:Unions by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Actually we pay top dollar. Person in question makes ~$90k for a skill set worth $60-70k and a billing rate of $110/(billable)hour. When you factor in overhead rates his cost is $90/billable hour. Problem is there is safely 20% re-work.

      A more reasonable question is why we are paying him more than he is worth; that is one I don't have a good answer for. Our only solution has been the prospect of firing him rather than cutting his pay...

    20. Re:Unions by Noah+Haders · · Score: 2

      The problem is half the people in the workforce are below average.

      half the people are below the *median*. if the distribution of people's abilities is symmetric then it will be true for the average as well, but there's no reason to think that.

    21. Re:Unions by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

      as long as you can bill for the re-work then you're good. may I also suggest raising his billing rate. source: I am a bidness man

    22. Re:Unions by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

      If the 401k plan wasn't tied to the specific company I might be able to see your argument, but given that it's tied to the employer and all of the things that employer could do (ie, ride the company off the rails) I don't see how it could be considered better./quote.401ks arent tied to the employer. you can take them and run at any time.

    23. Re:Unions by tomhath · · Score: 1

      It should be clear that I read his entire post; I specifically pointed out the foolishness of his argument that there are only two choices: unions or revolution. Or did you only read the what you wanted to read?

    24. Re:Unions by tomhath · · Score: 1

      He didn't say local average. He said if someone is a poor performer they should be compensated accordingly.

    25. Re:Unions by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      Disney's attempt was a pretty flagrant abuse of the law (definitely the spirit of the law, if perhaps not the letter), as was Edison's, and occurred precisely *because* it's actually difficult to find highly trained workers in the US that will work for peanuts. So, I'm not so sure that's a great example. The solution to H1B abuse isn't to unionize, but to fix the H1B laws.

      The ability to move from job to job has enhanced my earning power and career opportunities, personally speaking. Each move to a new company was also accompanied by a better wage, better company and working conditions, better benefits, and more responsibilities. Yes, I've been laid off as well, and that's never fun, but in general, I think not being tied to a union has been a positive thing for me.

      Reasonable frequent migration between companies is also a good source of idea and methodology cross-pollination. I've seen people that stick to a single company for most of their career, and in my opinion, their thinking often tends to be the most rigid - less able to adapt to new and better ideas. Granted, new isn't always better, but it's almost inevitable that *eventually* a new and better way will be found for doing almost *everything*.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    26. Re:Unions by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      Have you so soon forgotten Disney's attempt to replace their techs?

      Not to mention the 250 that were actually fired and replaced by H-1Bs in January, well before the linked story happened.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    27. Re:Unions by twistedcubic · · Score: 1


      First, forget about pensions; 401k plans are much better and have replaced them for most workers.

      Are you kidding? I have a union job with pension. I can not think of one reason to quit my job for one without a pension. Maybe you mean 401k is better for employers?

    28. Re:Unions by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1
      There are many employee owned companies in the US. I've though about it a lot and even searched it, but don't have an answer.

      https://duckduckgo.com/?q=why+aren%27t+there+more+employee+owned+companies%3F&t=ffab

    29. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Unions in Germany (I've personally witnessed) and Japan (good friends who have personally witnessed and I've talked at length) work FAR differently than in the USA.

      For example, Chrysler employees drinking on the job would NOT have been protected by IG Metall, but were ultimately reinstated because of their Union. Ever wonder why Chryslers suck so much?

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/fr...

    30. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the 401k plan wasn't tied to the specific company I might be able to see your argument,

      ^^ wow what a dumbshit - why he bothers to open his mouth at all is hard to comprehend

    31. Re:Unions by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Ah, yes, because that's exactly what skilled people want: getting paid and hired/fired not based on how good they are or how much they contribute to a company, but based on criteria like seniority and other kinds of b.s. that unions come up with.

      I am a witness to new unions doing exactly this. We unionized at my place of work about 6 years ago, and nows its seniority seniority seniority for everything.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    32. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He is likely referring to companies that encourage/require employees to buy company stock as a part of the matching they offer through the company 401k. If you want the employer to match your investment, some percentage of the investment will have to be in company stock.

      With a sufficiently-large amount of company stock held by employees in 401ks that offer few-to-no options to sell shares early or convert them to other investments within the 401k, those who hold stock outside of a 401k (executives with stock options, for example) now have a bulwark against share value collapse. It's easier for them to exercise their options and sell shares without making the share price tank completely.

      In extreme cases, it allows non-401k investors to sell their entire holdings in the company while the 401k investors can do nothing but look on in horror as the company collapses around them.

    33. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Social Security wants to kill itself. The only questions are: how long will it take, and who is willing to pay the role of the villain by finally pulling the plug?

    34. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some 401ks offer matching investment if and only if you invest in approved securities, such as company stock. So if you invest heavily in your own employer through a 401k, you (and people like you) are the ones left holding the bag when the executives sell off their shares and run shortly before a collapse.

    35. Re:Unions by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      First, forget about pensions; 401k plans are much better and have replaced them for most workers.

      Fewer than 15% of everyone with a 401k plan will have enough to retire by the time they turn 70.

      The 401k plan will go down as one of the greatest scams, and one of the greatest schemes to redistribute money upward, in the history of human economics.

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/ed...

      You know how the Chinese government is forcing people to buy and hold stocks in order to try to shore up their crashing stock market? Well that's exactly what the entire 401k statute was for. Conservatives like to say that Social Security and worker pensions were a "Ponzi scheme". Well, 401k is a Ponzi scheme on steroids.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    36. Re:Unions by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      I'd assume he's referring to the fact that Executives are compensated largely in stock, and 401ks mean a lot more people own stock. That's another way to say demand for stock will be higher. Since lots of employees will also make a point of owning their own company stock, that means that demand for the stock of a corporation that has lots of 401ks will be higher.

      Higher demand means higher stock price, means higher Executive Compensation.

    37. Re:Unions by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Many professionals have unions, often under different names. Medical Association, Bar Association, Actors guild, various engineering associations. Others such as professional sports do call them unions and since unionizing have done much better.
      There are only a few professions where the workers don't have a stacked deck against them and where it is clear who are the best performers.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    38. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All of those other options are ostensibly good, but turn out to be exploitable far more than their merits.

      Seniority is a simpler criteria.

    39. Re:Unions by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      It's not the unions that have changed but the jobs. Unions really did make sense for the first century of the industrial age.

    40. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Businesses are quite able to do this even when dealing with a union. There are always ways to document the problems with the employee, if attempts to remediate the problem are not resolved then the company can talk to the union and either transfer the person elsewhere are come up with a plan of action. If the employee doesn't meet the goals of the plan then they can be let go. Yes, this is much harder than a non-unionized worker but in reality is how all people should be treated.

      As someone that has had to fire people I can tell you it is awful, you are screwing up someone's livelihood. In my case there were quite a few documented cases and failed plans leading up to it but we did all we could.

    41. Re:Unions by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Many professionals have unions, often under different names. Medical Association, Bar Association, Actors guild, various engineering associations.

      Professional associations don't engage in collective bargaining over wages or working conditions. So, no, they are not "unions under different names".

      There are only a few professions where the workers don't have a stacked deck against them and where it is clear who are the best performers.

      It is never clear "who is the best performer". That is precisely why unions don't make sense because they negotiate as if labor was a commodity like iron or wheat.

      You think and talk like a wage slave. No wonder you want a union to wipe your ass for you.

    42. Re:Unions by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      401k plans shouldn't contain significant amounts of company stock. None of the 401k plans I ever had even offered company stock. And courts take an increasingly dim view if they do. If this was really a problem, it could simply be legislated against. So, that's a silly argument against 401k plans.

    43. Re:Unions by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Are you really saying that professional sports has no way to measure "who is the best performer"? It is a good example of an industry where the deck was stacked before unionizing.
      Many professional associations lobby for laws that benefit them all, eg the AMA making sure there is not too much labour in their profession, which would drive down the wages.
      Myself, I've worked around the wage slave thing to a degree by being self-employed. I do have relatives in the trades and generally unions help them.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    44. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Anything you can do can be taught to someone else willing to work for less.

      Only if you suck miserably at your job. Notice how so many of the big tech companies are griping that they can't find tech workers? They're talking about *competent* tech workers and there is big money to be had if you're one of them..

    45. Re:Unions by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Many professional associations lobby for laws that benefit them all, eg the AMA making sure there is not too much labour in their profession, which would drive down the wages.

      Yes, professional associations engage in rent seeking and political corruption; their target is government, and their lobbying is damned harmful. That is not the same as collective bargaining for wages and working conditions between private sector unions and private employers. (Public sector unions are yet different and aren't even "unions" in the usual sense.)

      Are you really saying that professional sports has no way to measure "who is the best performer"?

      That's a different sense of the term "professional". Sports "professionals" are mostly the equivalent of blue collar workers: interchangeable physical laborers with shortened careers and medical concerns.

    46. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, because the steel workers protected their jobs...oh wait, the steel industry is gone. Well there's the auto industry, unions did a fine job running them into bankruptcy.

      Oh the other hand..... Why do you think the standard work week is only 40 hours instead of 84? Or why do most people only work 5 days a week? Unions, comrade, unions.

    47. Re:Unions by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      Replying to myself - fewer than half found other jobs within the company.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    48. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1: Disney lied to everyone; they delayed the layoffs of 70 people and stated "We haulted layoffs" in national press. Disney is one of the 4 members of the US media Oligopoly, right up there with News Corp, Viacom and AG Bertelsmann.

      2: Outsourcing doesn't work. Effectively you are hiring hundreds of people with questionable skills to do the specialized, and it will take years of neglect and wasting massive amounts of capital to realize they don't have them. It improves bonuses for execs in the short term, that's it. You know it's bad when a Public Utility company outsources like Edison; that's in your face wage theft. That isn't what my grandpa and great grandpa fought for.

      3: If you are looking to improve competitiveness and reduce product pricing, you find the best staff or best contractors you can to come in and get things done, and you reward them with a nice sized chunk of the profits from their improvements, and I mean like the lions share, 65+% into the profit sharing. Then you continuously raise the bar. No banker or accountant will ever let you do this; they will call it crazy for fear you rock the debt gravy train they have going, and cause a chain of competitors to go bankrupt.

      4: No other employee type has the ability to induce such great contracting costs and incur such fantastic downtime as IT staff do. If an Network admin has a bad day they can inconvenience tens of thousands of employee's. Managers are extremely lucky we are so reliably meritocratic about everything. The solution is to refuse the deal, then pass around cards to other employee's who signed up for training, unionize, and then come in and sit and do nothing, for a week, irregardless of what management does or says; another option is to call in sick for a week, same deal. THEN you negotiate for fair market wages and reasonable benefits as your group is meritocratic. This isn't unionization per-se; it's defending you from that one a-hole that deserves to be 6 feet under who's screwing everyone to make a buck.

    49. Re:Unions by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Many professional associations lobby for laws that benefit them all, eg the AMA making sure there is not too much labour in their profession, which would drive down the wages.

      Yes, professional associations engage in rent seeking and political corruption; their target is government, and their lobbying is damned harmful. That is not the same as collective bargaining for wages and working conditions between private sector unions and private employers. (Public sector unions are yet different and aren't even "unions" in the usual sense.)

      Unluckily, with employers also taking advantage of political corruption through lobbying and bribing, workers are left having to fight on the same terms.

      Are you really saying that professional sports has no way to measure "who is the best performer"?

      That's a different sense of the term "professional". Sports "professionals" are mostly the equivalent of blue collar workers: interchangeable physical laborers with shortened careers and medical concerns.

      They're still people who deserve control over their lifes. And they are professional in the sense that they negotiate individual contracts based on performance.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    50. Re:Unions by dcollins · · Score: 1

      "It is never clear 'who is the best performer'. That is precisely why unions don't make sense because they negotiate as if labor was a commodity like iron or wheat."

      That's self-contradictory. If it's not clear who is a better performer, then exactly how is labor unlike a commodity?

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
    51. Re:Unions by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      That's self-contradictory. If it's not clear who is a better performer, then exactly how is labor unlike a commodity?

      Unions assume that it makes sense to negotiate wages and working conditions for whole classes of workers. That is, they treat workers like iron or wheat, something whose quality is easily determined by a few parameters, and where buyers don't really care much about who they buy from.

      When it comes to skilled workers, the value of that worker to a company depends on a great deal of detail of what the worker can provide and what the company needs. Wages and working conditions are set through individual negotiations because that's the only sensible way of setting them.

    52. Re:Unions by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Unluckily, with employers also taking advantage of political corruption through lobbying and bribing, workers are left having to fight on the same terms.

      Yes, corporations, professional associations, and unions all engage in rent seeking. But justifying more handouts for workers by pointing to corporations makes the problem worse, because the corporations are going to come back and then demand more handouts for themselves. Furthermore, this isn't two opposing political forces; government handouts to both workers and corporations are primarily the doing of the same politicians.

      They're still people who deserve control over their lifes. And they are professional in the sense that they negotiate individual contracts based on performance.

      You gave the example, and it's a stupid one. The point is that there are two classes of organizations, one of which primarily lobbies, and the other primarily negotiates private contracts, and they are not at all the same, economically or politically.

    53. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Brilliant. Nothing could possibly go wrong with only one entity to defend both the workers and the companies.

    54. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if he kills you when you fire him?

    55. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Without that threat of the workers going commie there's nothing stopping them from rolling back the clock to 1850.

      No, men will not be allowed to marry female children again.

    56. Re:Unions by houghi · · Score: 3, Informative

      Because that is not what they do. They represent workers. That is their function. In Germany Unions are pretty strong and yet they are reasonably well off.

      So the union should ot be seen as the enimy, it should be seen as a counterweight to the power of the companies.

      What I understand from the US situation is that they are not so much unions as they are a Guild. And that is very restrictive in many ways.

      I live in Belgium and I can sign up for at least 3 different Unions if I so desire. Nobody even cares if I am a member of a Union or not (I am). Nobody asks and nobody cares.

      When I change professions, I can change Unions or stay with the same one. Nobody cares.

      So they are not there to run the company, they are there to represent the people. And they are apparently needed, because the people are not really reprisented by the politicians anymore.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    57. Re:Unions by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Simple, but very very flawed.

      I know too many idiots to ever support a seniority based approach, especially where unions make it very hard to remove incompetent people.

    58. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How many once you weed out the mom-and-pop shops that don't have enough revenue to sustain non-owner employees?

    59. Re:Unions by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 1

      Remind me where I suggested that unions or revolution were the only choice, because I don't recall doing anything other than positing a particular solution. I certainly don't recall stating that it is the only solution; merely one that worked in the past. Feel free to suggest a better one, but the online gamer's refrain/taunt of "Get Good" really isn't going to cut it, for reasons others have already outlined here.

      And no, unions, like all human organizations and endeavors, are far from foolproof. Unions can certainly demand too much of a share, and management can just as easily give it to them while bankrupting the company. "Greedy unions" is not what ruined the American auto industry - management ineptitude and repeated lack of foresight is the primary driver behind that. After all, most of the overseas companies that were eating our lunch were unionized, even if their unions tend to work far differently than ours.

      This brings me to a point that is often lost in discussions of unions in the US. Overseas, in Europe/Japan/etc, unions tend to coordinate and work very closely with management, in a cooperative rather than inherently adversarial relationship. This seems like a much better way to do things to me - sort of a "we're in this together" mentality rather than a "I need to squeeze a bigger share of the pie from that a**hole" one.

    60. Re:Unions by dywolf · · Score: 1

      Unions are not at fault for the auto or steel industries.
      They did it to themselves, and would have with out without the union's presence.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    61. Re:Unions by dywolf · · Score: 1

      ^^^
      How it should be.

      the European method is better.
      but even the American method is better than none, though if the GOP got their way there would be no unions, and every worker would have to individually negotiate against the company "on equal footing" (which it in no way is)

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    62. Re: Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're clearly under the delusion that skills and seniority are the only options. I'll take seniority over office politics any day.

    63. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might find this enlightening.

    64. Re:Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's interesting, because pretty much across the board, indexed to inflation, these positions almost all pay far less than they used to. It may be that the desire to unionize isn't up to this level yet, but as these fields become increasingly commoditized, I think we can probably rest assured that they will be interested in organizing at some point if things don't change for the better.

      I remember living next to one of IBM's huge facilities in Colorado growing up, and knew people who worked there back in the 1980s in those exact fields. They were all earning $50-80,000/year. Indexed to inflation, having a $50k/year job in 1985 would be like having a $112k/year job today. Having an $80k/year job in 1985 would be like having a $179k/year job today. Tell me honestly, how many people working in IT today are making $110-180k/year (in conditions of hippy-era Colorado cost of living)? I'm going to posit that a huge number of them are probably earning the same $50-80k/year that they were 30 years ago, minus the inflationary effect, and those who are earning closer to the $180k/year end of the spectrum are living in places with astronomical cost of living where they'd also have been earning even more in 1985.

      It shouldn't be difficult to imagine how, if this effect continues, that can eventually reach the point where workers in these fields will want to or at least consider organizing to get back to something approaching fair and reasonable pay (vs. the direction it's been creeping in for the last decade or two) for their specialized knowledge and skill. Of course that's assuming that the remainder of the economy hasn't long since collapsed before it can ever reach that point due to people in positions which have never earned close to that much falling into perilous, unsustainable poverty and its corresponding economic bubble-up effect.

      For what it's worth, the vast majority of that facility today is staffed by contract workers earning about $20-25k/year, while all those people being paid $50-80k have long since been laid off and replaced by cheaper workers doing a fair amount of the same work, and only a fraction of those higher paid workers still being around doing the things that can't be done dependably by those $10/hour contractors-- but even among those remaining, they've seen their wages drop compared to what they were 30 or so years ago.

      And having known several of the contractors, those cheaper workers wind up costing almost as much as a smaller number of those higher paid workers would have cost due to ineptitude, mistakes, and just general laziness and malfeasance. But you get what you pay for after all.

    65. Re:Unions by ultranova · · Score: 1

      He said if someone is a poor performer they should be compensated accordingly.

      So, no more golden parachutes?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    66. Re:Unions by Sardaukar86 · · Score: 1

      As someone that has had to fire people I can tell you it is awful, you are screwing up someone's livelihood. In my case there were quite a few documented cases and failed plans leading up to it but we did all we could.

      Thank you. You collectively did what you could for them but sometimes people still need to be let go.

      It's actually not that hard to give a tiny little shit about your staff. It also takes surprisingly little extra effort and minimal monetary cost to genuinely care for them.

      --
      ..Mullah or Pope, Preacher or Poet, who was it wrote: "Give any one species too much rope and they'll fuck it up"?
    67. Re:Unions by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      And we're thankful for that. However, since those are largely codified into law now, the need for the unions has lessened.

      I've seen a family member burned by aerospace unions in the '80s and '90s. He got so sick of them showing up at the picket lines in fancy cars and wearing expensive suits, continuing to draw a salary while he got strike benefits (a pittance) that he started crossing the picket lines to work.

      On the other hand, I've also seen the nurses' union fight to increase the number of nurses per patient, both to increase patient safety and to decrease burnout in the nursing industry.

      There's enough good that some unions still have value, but there's also enough bad that some of them are just dead weight. When unions exist solely to protect themselves, they've become as bad as the companies they once battled.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    68. Re:Unions by dcollins · · Score: 1

      But you said "It is never clear 'who is the best performer'" which contradicts this line of reasoning. Do you now stand by that assertion, or refute it?

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
    69. Re:Unions by hawkfish · · Score: 1

      Instead of spending millions lobbying why don't the unions start worker-owned companies? Because they can't cease making demands of "capitalists" anymore than a flea can jump off a plump dog

      Maybe because the corporate structures provided are totally inadequate to the point of seeming to discourage that form of organisation?

      True story: About 20 years ago, my business partner and I tried to set up such a business in Washington State. We looked at the state-provided structure (called a T-corp) and learned that it required every person who had ever worked for the company at any point in time to be compensated from equity for life. There was no way to buy out former employees! We ended up forming an S-corp with funky by-laws, but most people don't have the education and resources to figure things like that out.

      --
      You will not drink with us, but you would taste our steel? - Walter Matthau, The Pirates
    70. Re:Unions by hawkfish · · Score: 1

      Instead of spending millions lobbying why don't the unions start worker-owned companies? Because they can't cease making demands of "capitalists" anymore than a flea can jump off a plump dog

      Who says they don't?

      --
      You will not drink with us, but you would taste our steel? - Walter Matthau, The Pirates
    71. Re:Unions by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      But you said "It is never clear 'who is the best performer'" which contradicts this line of reasoning. Do you now stand by that assertion, or refute it?

      No, I stand by it. I'm saying that there is no such thing as a "best performer" in general; it's not a well-defined concept. The only thing that there is is the actual salary that an employee and an employer negotiate. Past performance is irrelevant to that. The only thing that is relevant as far as performance is guesses about future performance. And most of that salary isn't going to be determined by performance at all, but supply and demand.

  6. Sure, if you have no talent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    The people with unique skills can job hop all they want, collecting big pay bumps as they go. Works both ways. If you do just enough to get by, then yeah, you're always going to be worried your job won't be there, and that you can't compete with people who are always improving.

    1. Re: Sure, if you have no talent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You also can't compete with HB-1 indentured servants willing to accept a third of your payrate.
      But go ahead and learn something new.

      While you're at it we'll double your work load and slash your pay again as you train your replacement.

    2. Re:Sure, if you have no talent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree with what you say in principle but the thing is, employment contracts still tend to include pretty harsh non-compete clauses - if TFA is correct in substance, then that BS needs to end right now, too.

    3. Re:Sure, if you have no talent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So true. I've been pretty much switching jobs every 5 years, doubling my salary every time.
      An employer is but a stepping stone to help you get to the next one.

    4. Re: Sure, if you have no talent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not that hard to compete with them. Provided you constantly improve yourself and your knowledge base, along with network as much as you can, it's pretty easy to have a continuous stream of options if you live in a decently sized city. In the worst case, assuming you can get a security clearance, you can always work for a defense contractor.

    5. Re:Sure, if you have no talent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Untrue. I did more than my fair share. In fact, I did more my job plus at least half of someone else's and I was fired in favour of someone who would be paid $20 less per week but doesn't do any overtime at all.

      I think it's safe to say that my boss is a fool who can't count or see beyond his nose. He's had to take on one extra person to cover the extra work generated, and still thinks he's come out better off.

    6. Re:Sure, if you have no talent by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Provided you are willing to move or lucky enough to live with a great many jobs to sustain you.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    7. Re: Sure, if you have no talent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You also can't compete with HB-1 indentured servants willing to accept a third of your payrate.

      You should thank your lucky stars that these people come to the US, because if they staid in their home countries, they'd be willing to work for even less and you'd be even less competitive with them. And they wouldn't be paying US taxes.

      You better figure out how to compete with them or change jobs. There is plenty of need for dog walkers. Or you can make coffee beverages if you like; it's a common career choice for hangers-on in high tech like you.

    8. Re:Sure, if you have no talent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you were let go over 80 bucks a month, then that means whatever you do isn't very hard. I'd believe this story if a janitor told it.

    9. Re: Sure, if you have no talent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should thank your lucky stars that these people come to the US, because if they staid in their home countries, they'd be willing to work for even less and you'd be even less competitive with them. And they wouldn't be paying US taxes.

      That makes absolutely no sense. Let's assume that they do stay in their home countries - if your job can be outsourced to them, it would be, for a cheaper rate, to a foreign country. But they do come and depress U.S. wages - in the jobs that cannot be outsourced. If the jobs could be outsourced, then workers in the non-US countries would do the work and undercut the H1-B workers. Why would a business pay the higher expense of a H1B employee compared to sending it overseas to a foreign worker? Because the work can't be sent abroad. In that case, if the work HAS to be done in the U.S, why should we be thankful that someone is undercutting U.S. workers? Non H1-B workers in the U.S. would, by definition, by paying more U.S. taxes if they earned more money.

  7. time to make full time 32 hours a week by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    With no more of this exempt ot bs also X2 ot at 60 hours a week

    1. Re: time to make full time 32 hours a week by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they need to hire twice as many people, would you be comfortable earning less than half of what you're making now? (Administrative costs, you see)

    2. Re: time to make full time 32 hours a week by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not if we pass laws making that illegal like France did. My husband used to work half as many hours in France as he is required to here in Seattle. We really need laws limiting the time you are allowed to work.

    3. Re: time to make full time 32 hours a week by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      France is next in line after the PIIGS so I wouldn't emulate them.

  8. Buy the new best selling Book ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fear and Loathing in the Workplace

    Soon to be made into a movie, complete with gratuitous nudity & senseless violence.
     

  9. Advice for youth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I tell young people: don't go to college unless you're sure it's what you want, paid for, scholarships, or it's for a degree which will allow you to be well self-employed, like doctor, lawyer, etc. I regret getting a BSEE. It's only useful in working for corporations, and more and more it's useless without certifications, and sometimes certs are worth more than the BS. Be independent of the corporations, or go for CEO (and even they get fired...)

    1. Re:Advice for youth by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 1

      An observation: the higher up you go, the higher the penalty for fucking up.

      Yes, that certainly explain the golden parachutes so many bank CEOs got, which is really the norm in the corporacratic world.

    2. Re:Advice for youth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have EE degrees all of the way up to a doctorate. I used to work for other companies but now I have two of my own and two others that I've sold off.

      Saying that a certain degree, especially an engineering degree, is useless outside of a corporate setting is ridiculous. Completing an engineering degree should, above all else, confer the following lesson: how to approach a difficult problem, understand it, formulate multiple solutions, and finally determine how to best tackle it. With this simple, but very important, skill, you can either solve plenty of problems on your own or find the right people to help you solve those problems. From there, it's just a matter of finding a niche to exploit, lining up potential customers, and starting your own business.

    3. Re:Advice for youth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, that certainly explain the golden parachutes so many bank CEOs got, which is really the norm in the corporacratic world.

      What would it take for you to accept the CEO job, knowing that when you F-up they'll fire you and you'll never work as CEO of any company ever again unless you found it yourself? That's a pretty big risk. After all, you're staking your career on the outcome of that bet. Under those circumstances, I'd make sure that my parachute was golden too.

    4. Re:Advice for youth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What would it take for you to accept the CEO job, knowing that when you F-up they'll fire you and you'll never work as CEO of any company ever again unless you found it yourself?

      Only that's hardly ever what's happening in reality. Just look at any horribly failed CEO, and look up how long it takes until they show up in another company, with another gigantic parachute. The 1% takes care of its own.

    5. Re:Advice for youth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      A further observation: the higher you go, the more chance you find of placing the blame, or the responsibility, on someone below.

      On salespeople, yeah they are a dime a dozen. My workplace is badly mismanaged and clearly we have no institutional vision, and the salespeople are struggling to sell anything as a result. The CEO (not the owner, nor the broad presiding over him from the owning company) constantly points the finger at them. No vision, no organizational goals, simply "Condition red! Steady as she goes!"

      I've recently discovered that our funding was under review, and the reviewer has decided to recommend against renewing it. The reviewer has announced that he has found it is the fault of the management.

      Hilarious.

      You can imagine the sales staff, who get wickedly high pay have almost no morale. The production people, knowing that we're the bottom rung and get barely the legal minimum (barely, because we work a few hours for free every month), have no positive morale, either. The other group, not directly production but certainly not sales, also have no positive morale.

      In this case, the business is the best example of beatings will continue until morale improves; it's our fault, and not that of the guy running the place. If only we worked harder, things would be better.

    6. Re:Advice for youth by Scoth · · Score: 1

      I can't disagree with this more. Once you reach a certain point, being unemployed for long is very rare. I've experienced this first-hand - I was working for a company who discovered the CFO had been cooking the books very, very badly. It wasn't quite illegal; there weren't criminal charges involved, but it led to about 15 people (including me) losing our jobs, and the remaining 20 employees taking a serious pay cut with a questionable future for the company. While I (and the others) getting let go were still in the meeting where they'd informed us of what happened, some of the other higher-ups were talking with us about possible business ideas that could turn the business back around and lead to us being rehired, and they mentioned approaching the now-ex CFO guy for investment (but *only* investment, no controlling interest, just to be clear). So we have a case where a guy has just cost 15 people their jobs through blatant chicanery, had just been fired from the company for it, and the other higher ups are still interested in dealing with him for funding. Money talks, and once you have a certain amount of it you'll have a hard time staying down for long unless you've committed some crime serious enough for jail time.

  10. Obvious solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Vote for Bernie

  11. Crony Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The big corporations have bought enough presidents and members of congress (in BOTH parties) who allow them to violate the rules of the marketplace. We no longer live in the American free market place, we live in a split economy run by cronies. The average person lives in the consumer half, foreign workers live in the producer half, and the big corporations, investor class, and politicians live astride those two halves (enjoying the benefits of each half and dodging the downsides of each half). This is absolutely NOT free market capitalism.

    These corporations demand all the protections of the American marketplace (including things like large consistent marketplace, a stable legal system, stable banking system, intellectual property laws that are actually enforced, and more) but then when the natural laws of supply and demand would hurt them (in labor costs) they ship work out of that market or import cheaper workers into it thereby escaping the rules of the marketplace. BOTH parties let them do it in exchange for "campaign contributions".

    Do not vote "R" or "D". Vote for the individual, of whatever party and stop letting them destroy the middle class by using "wedge issues" to distract you. They want you to vote R or D to "protect choice" or to "stop abortion", or to "protect marriage equality" or to "preserve traditional marriage" but the reality is that these things are all being decided by judges in courts and the politicians on both sides have no intention of solving any of them (solving them would remove the issue and eliminate a tool for motivating the party base). What is CERTAIN, however, is that most of these politicians on BOTH sides of the aisle will do whatever the wall st investment bankers who fund their campaigns tell them to do (i.e. continue the destruction of the middle class). There is a reason why the establishment candidates of BOTH parties ("->Hillary" and "Jeb!") share so many Wall St banker backers.

    1. Re:Crony Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sadly until a great many people die off. We're stuck with the 'i voted for X because thats my party!'.

      It's not about the person or who they are or what they can do. it's all about the party.

      Even after elected it's not about doing things. It's about supporting the party.

      The political system has been corrupted. And will not allow change to the system.
      And we're at least a few decades from being fed up and starting completely over.

    2. Re:Crony Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The big corporations have bought enough presidents and members of congress (in BOTH parties) who allow them to violate the rules of the marketplace. We no longer live in the American free market place, we live in a split economy run by cronies. The average person lives in the consumer half, foreign workers live in the producer half, and the big corporations, investor class, and politicians live astride those two halves (enjoying the benefits of each half and dodging the downsides of each half). This is absolutely NOT free market capitalism.

      I agree, but it is a logical conclusion to unregulated free markets that allow corporations to exist, and made more extreme by stock markets. The stock market makes it an obligation for the corporation to maximize profits, where with a private ownership it requires the owner/controller to be a sociopath. (Both of which I think have been demonstrated in the US history)

      And considering the US has legalized corruption of the elective system, the result isn't very surprising. And I'm sure it's not helped by the first past the post voting system that's bound to amplify the corruption problem.

      I would also be fascinated to see what would happen if the US switched over to highest averages voting systems, but why would either party want that since it would erode their own comfortable positions.

    3. Re:Crony Capitalism by k6mfw · · Score: 1

      stop letting them destroy the middle class by using "wedge issues" to distract you. They want you to vote R or D to "protect choice" or to "stop abortion", or to "protect marriage equality" or to "preserve traditional marriage" but the reality is that these things are all being decided by judges in courts and the politicians on both sides

      It's the "guns, god, and gays" issues brought forward by politicians as these are emotional hot button issues for commoners but there are larger issues that effect wages, jobs, health care, environment, infrastructure, etc.

      --
      mfwright@batnet.com
  12. Your simpleton ideas in a global economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You have rather simplistic ideas that are incompatible with the real world.
     
    Except for some of the most stable blue chip companies, corporations are routinely endangered in a global economy.
     
    How would your simpleton ideas have helped Blackberry or Nokia employees?
     
    Many other examples abound including ones mentioned by others.

  13. I agree! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We interview many people. We ask several questions but the one that kills me is this:

    What do do the registers look like when you call a function with a vaule parameter, a pointer and a reference.

    Said function return an int.

    computer "scientists" are at ZERO.

    Electrical engineers have a perfect score.And History majors are a head of computer "scientists" by one.

    And this is in Silicon valley.

    BTW, Google "engineers" are at zero. They are morons.

    1. Re:I agree! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Duh, that's easy: The registers look like teeny tiny blobs of silicon. For added points I can tell you what values they hold?

    2. Re:I agree! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      for those playing the home game, this HS graduate says

      value param - the value
      pointer - memory address of the pointed-to location
      reference - also a memory address of the pointed-to location, the fact that it is a 'reference' is irrelevant except to the compiler (and the programmer) who can be assured that it will never by a null pointer

    3. Re:I agree! by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      While that's great and I'm sure it makes you feel really smart, I'd love to see the kinds of applications those electrical engineers build for you. You know, the kind of stuff where "what do the registers look like" doesn't matter one bit.

    4. Re:I agree! by Cederic · · Score: 2

      How does "I don't give a shit, the compiler deals with that crap for me" score?

  14. Was just talking about this today by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've been working for 25 years to try and beat this system. I hate it. I hate that I can take a corporate job where I'm told what kind of pants to wear, what angle to sit at in my seat, and be given more work than a person can complete in a reasonable timeframe, complete it anyway, and be given even more as a "reward". Alternatively, I can go work for a startup where I have more flexibility, but less security. My "solution" has been to live cheaply. I live in a small paid-off house. I drive paid-off cars. I owe no one any money. I have a few hundred thousand dollars in the bank. I am occasionally tempted to tell the nasty little bastard I work for to go fuck himself, but I haven't given into the temptation. Knowing that I could helps a bit. The thing I hate about it is that it all seems so unnecessary.

    1. Re:Was just talking about this today by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I figured out how to beat it when I was in the fifth grade and my parents wouldn't give me money to buy me a computer that I wanted. Twenty five years seems like a long time.

    2. Re:Was just talking about this today by shallot · · Score: 1

      The thing I hate about it is that it all seems so unnecessary.

      Quite. And when a screwed-up corporation sends you to a people skills class, they basically teach you how to deal with the mess that they created by nurturing and promoting experts at office politics. So unnecessary.

  15. Right out of 1984 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A few years ago the line was "Recession? What are you talking about? Everything's great now!"

    Now it's changed to "Losing your job in massive layoffs is the new normal! Why question it?! Relax and enjoy your government cheese!"

  16. It's a two way street by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I treat most employers with the same contempt. They have to earn my loyalty. If more people were like this...

    1. Re:It's a two way street by ubersoldat2k7 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The only loyalty I feel for any company I worked for was financial. If I find a job that pays more and the place is more or less sane, I'll leave in 15 days.

    2. Re:It's a two way street by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      15 days? Why would you wait 15 days to make more money? Do you think your company would? How quaint.

  17. A Lesson From Cuba by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Perhaps it's time for US employees to take a page from the playbook of their Cuban counterparts. In Cuba, the desirability of any job is judged not simply from the wage, which is typically low, but also from what is called the "lucha" or struggle. In this context, it means what and how much can be "liberated" from the workplace and either used directly or converted to cash under the table. Wall street and corporate America aren't honest, so why should we continue to play by their rules? They lie, cheat and steal as a matter of doing business. Maybe we should too.

  18. JUST WORK HARDER by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    So when they let you go, you can say you gave it the *ol' college effort*.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    1. Re:JUST WORK HARDER by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Boxer the Horse from Animal Farm

  19. I'm waiting for a call from Uber by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    ..because I heard they were hiring.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    1. Re:I'm waiting for a call from Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uber is not 'hiring'. They're merely trolling job boards looking for desperate & gullible people upon which to offset the risks inherent in their business model.

      If they were really offering a job, it would involve their car, not yours (or at least one financed under terms that leave you without any penalties, charges, or credit rating hits, should Uber be shut down or fail to provide sufficient fares to cover payments and some reasonable level of profit for drivers), and they would pay for all work-related expenses and assume all work-related liabilities liabilities (at least at the entry-level), and they'd make sure that their operations are legal in the jurisdiction in which they intend to have you operate before they start talking to you about it.

  20. employees have no loyalty either by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1, Insightful

    says workers in the U.S. are caught up in a "one-way honor system," in which workers are beholden to employers.

    The idea that US workers are "beholden" to employers is ridiculous; it isn't company loyalty that keeps employees with the same employer, it's the cost and difficulty of changing jobs. A big part of why it is so costly and difficult to change jobs is government regulations and government-mandated benefits.

    1. Re:employees have no loyalty either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL.
      No, regs/benefits/etc do NOT keep people in the same company. Most people stay because they hope to move up. Sadly, they are thinking wrong in this time.

      Only an idiotic tea bagger or neo-con would claim that regulations are keeping employees in a job.
      Take your mouth off the kock brothers pants and start thinking for yourself.

    2. Re:employees have no loyalty either by tomhath · · Score: 0

      You completely missed his point. Regs aren't keeping people in a job; they make hiring someone a big risk for a company because the cost of firing a slacker is very high - especially if the slacker belongs to a "protected" class.. You can't change jobs easily if employers aren't willing to take a chance on you.

    3. Re:employees have no loyalty either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ironically the Koch Bros. are now publicly lobbying against corporate welfare. Another thing to add to the "You know things are getting bad when:" list...

    4. Re:employees have no loyalty either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This. Congress messed up bad when they tied health care to employment and made it really hard for the individual to get group coverage via tax law.

    5. Re:employees have no loyalty either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for identifying yourself as an Able-Bodied Straight White Christian Male. How blue are your eyes? Ed Bishop Blue?

    6. Re:employees have no loyalty either by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      You're exaggerating the cost of firing. And to be frank you;re delusional if you think "protected class" means protected from being fired for cause.

      My retail store just switched managers, and the new guy decided to do the "get rid of the dead-weight" thing. Black women did worse then anyone else, probably because they have family obligations at home which makes Clopenings more difficult.

      Literally the only guy who benefitted from being in a protected class is a guy who zips around on an electric wheelchair.

    7. Re:employees have no loyalty either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Re: "The idea that US workers are "beholden" to employers is ridiculous; it isn't company loyalty that keeps employees with the same employer, it's the cost and difficulty of changing jobs."
      You do realize, don't you, that you argued yourself out of, and then back in to, the notion that the employer enjoys a workforce advantage?

      Re: "A big part of why it is so costly and difficult to change jobs is government regulations and government-mandated benefits."
      Um, what? For whom? Name one "regulation or benefit" that makes it "costly and difficult" to change jobs.

    8. Re:employees have no loyalty either by dywolf · · Score: 0

      this is part of that crazy right wing logic where up is down and black is white.
      this is like that other idiots assertions that the environment is bad off because of regulations, and would be better if we eliminated them.
      so completely disconnected from reality.
      it's such a load of bull.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    9. Re:employees have no loyalty either by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      this is part of that crazy right wing logic where up is down and black is white.

      No, I was simply echoing the crazy black-and-white world view of the original article.

      this is like that other idiots assertions that the environment is bad off because of regulations, and would be better if we eliminated them

      I'm one of those idiots. Of course, "eliminating regulations" doesn't mean just getting rid of the EPA and regulations, it means replacing them with better, private mechanisms.

      so completely disconnected from reality. it's such a load of bull.

      I understand where you're coming from: I used to be a progressive and Democrat myself.

    10. Re:employees have no loyalty either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Guy who zips around on an electric wheelchair here. You're exaggerating the protected class benefit. And to be frank you;re delusional if you think "guy who zips around on an electric wheelchair" means protected from being fired for cause.

      Just kidding, I'm trolling ;)

  21. Zero-way honor systems ... by MacTO · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't know if this is representative, but I've found that employees who are treated as disposable often treat their jobs at disposable. In other words, job hopping is often at the employee's initiative. They are ready to look for new work the minute their old job feels a bit more insecure, and are ready to jump at a new job if they are offered new benefits. Note that I said benefits, not security. It is assumed that job security does not exist so it is not something that is worthwhile seeking.

    The sad thing is that it hurts employers as much as it hurts employees. It costs money to look for new employees. It costs money to vet new employees. It costs money to train new employees. It costs money to terminate employees or have employees resign. It also costs money in lost productivity in the intervening period. It also adds a great deal of risk, since there is no guarantee that the new employee will be of any value or, if they are of value, that they will be a good fit. Yet a lot of businesses don't seem to realize the impact on the bottom line because churn is not broken out when the accounting is done. Rather, it is a bunch of different expenses that fall in different categories -- if they are even recognized as expenses to start with.

    1. Re:Zero-way honor systems ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The ones that change of job as soon as they offer new benefits are skilled professionals. The non-skilled workers jump from a bad underpaid job to a worse job.

      Solution: Education and training. Mmm, well that's the solution for you, but not for a society.

      Can a society run without non-skilled labor? Well, I don't think so. There will always be jobs that anybody can do and workers can be replaced quickly. In fact probably there will alway be more jobs of non-skilled labor than of skilled labor

      The question is: What is the minimum standard of living these no-skilled jobs? You could say that everyone has the same opportunity to win his place in the society, even if I bought that, the question is still there. What do we do with the losers? What's the minimum standard of living that deserve the losers?

      What has changed is the answer to that question. The answer nowadays is "Uh? What?". There is not even a social debate about that. The answer has been put under our skin: There is no society of group. This is a jungle, survive by any mean.

  22. I've been working since the early 1980's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and have always had job insecurity. Any security people may have had is false. Even the best companies go through rough spots and even out of businesses. The people who know this are prepared for it, those who aren't get complacent in their comfortable jobs and are usually not able to find comparable work should the need arise and end up losing their homes. All life is change. Those that can adapt to new situations do well.``

  23. greed for knowledge by TapeCutter · · Score: 2

    Greed is a problem when others are denied their fair share. G. Gekko's psychopathic (but brilliant) speech used positive examples of greed, such as "greed for knowledge", in order to convince his audience that all greed is good.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    1. Re:greed for knowledge by babybird · · Score: 2

      I actually haven't ever seen the movie, so I can't comment on that, but it sounds like an idiotic argument that ideally nobody should've fallen for based on the portions you've included here. Knowledge isn't a zero-sum game-- I can have knowledge and you can have knowledge and neither of us is preventing anyone else from also having that same knowledge, nor are we losing that knowledge when someone else gains it. It can be shared infinitely.

      Money, or capital, or real resources cannot be shared infinitely, because for one person to have them, another must necessarily be deprived of them or of some relative portion of them. Because of this, I don't see it as greed in both cases. I tend to view greed as "I want X where X is a depleteable resource, even though my having it necessarily means that someone else must be deprived of it-- and I want much more of it than I need, even though that means that someone else who also needs it must do without it."

      "Greed for knowledge" to me is more akin to "that guy made himself a table. I want to make myself a table." than it is to "that guy made himself a table. I want that guy's table but I don't want to give him the means to make himself another table in exchange for it."

      Greed, to me, requires more of a deliberately inequitable transaction to take place. It's an exploitative transaction, rather than a mutually equitably beneficial transaction.

      --
      Keith D.
  24. Stability has economic value by NickyLogic · · Score: 1

    The private sector has become very good at identifying human wants and monetizing them. Now if they could just figure out how to provide economic stability as a product/service. Even the illusion of stability would improve people's state of mind, and has value.

  25. Troll by p51d007 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Oh goodie, someone spouting Karl Marx. What's next? Lennin, Stalin, Mao, Obama? I'll take my chances with free market capitalism over socialism ANY DAY. Name one country, where the people have moved UP in life, that runs under socialism. China doesn't count because the MAJORITY of it's citizens don't live in Hong Kong or Peking (Beijing).

    1. Re:Troll by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 1

      Norway

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    2. Re:Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      France

    3. Re:Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't Norway have a lot of oil money?

    4. Re:Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obama!? Wow, if you believe he is anything near a socialist (or communist) then you have bought the right-wing propaganda a little too much. At least Roger Ailes can rest easy knowing he is still doing a good job.

    5. Re:Troll by dryeo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The Soviet Union (things were really bad for the average person in Czarist Russia).
      Cuba is another example. Compare to the capitalist Haiti or mafia run Cuba.
      Of course both above examples would have done much better to allow a mix of capitalism at some point.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    6. Re:Troll by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Norway

      So the secret to prosperity is to have a small, homogeneous population, and lots of offshore oil.

    7. Re:Troll by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      GP said, " Name one country, where the people have moved UP in life, that runs under socialism"

      My post accomplished that, simply raising the bar in order to try and prove some other point that the answer was not intended for is just an exercise in public masturbation

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    8. Re:Troll by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'll take my chances with free market capitalism over socialism ANY DAY.

      There is an old commie saying: "You keep doing what you been doing and you're going to keep getting what you got."

      And what you got is the "new normal". P.T. Barnum had a name for people who believe in "free market capitalism".

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    9. Re:Troll by rtb61 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Do not confuse Stalinism or Maoism with socialism, those first two where strictly police states with the masquerade of what ever political system they were pretending to be. This being no different to Nazism.

      So want to see socialism, first the psychopaths have to go, quite simply they will corrupt any ism they are a part of, attempt to turn it into an authoritarian state where they have control and can dominate and exploit the citizens of that society.

      Socialism is the system that the majority of people were born into, the family unit, a socialist government is basically about expanding the socialism of the family unit into the greater community to gain the all to obvious outcomes, a caring and sharing society of human beings and the extended family concept.

      The 'Free Market' is straight up marketing lie because it is wholly and totally dependent upon nothing in that market ever being Free, everything 'owned' and 'controlled', so that those with the most can control and exploit those with the least. With everything that can be owned being owned, including all of the essentials to life, so that denial of life becomes the tool of exploitation of the not free at all market place of human lives.

      Either we shift to socialism or die as a species, that is the choice, suck it up.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    10. Re:Troll by harperska · · Score: 2

      Sweden. Better example than Norway, because Sweden's economy is based in manufacturing and export of those manufactured goods, rather than dependent on a single intrinsically valuable but eventually limited natural resource.

      On the other hand, look at how Norway handles their oil wealth, as opposed to other oil rich countries. Norway invests their oil money in the future of all citizens, rather than using it to line the pockets of the wealthy few.

    11. Re:Troll by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 0, Troll

      I've been to Soviet Russia (Stalingrad (now St. Petersberg)) and lived in it personally, first hand.` Have you? I agree with the poster who said he'd take free market capitalism over socialism ANY DAY.

    12. Re:Troll by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      Sweden and Norway are not socialist. They are mixed economy like the US. And most of the rest of the world.

    13. Re:Troll by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I've been to Soviet Russia (Stalingrad (now St. Petersberg)) and lived in it personally, first hand.` Have you?

      I've been to, and lived in, and have worked in Britain, Finland and France. Have you? Hell, I was even there long enough to have experienced their health care system after I got a wisdom tooth removed in Helsinki. Cost me $25 (which the dentist wouldn't take because he said it had been a pleasure to practice English with me).

      So, if you want to talk about "socialism" with me, you can bring your "Soviet Russia" to the parks and see if the squirrels want it, because nobody's buying here. My experience with socialism is a whole hell of a lot more germane than your "Soviet Russia".

      And yes, I have been to St Petersberg. In fact, I've got a picture of my wife and I in front of The Hermitage right over my left (your right) shoulder. It was taken on an August day six years ago. My wife was there for a Mathematics conference and I was her plus one.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    14. Re:Troll by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      I've been to Soviet Russia

      In Soviet Russia, bull shits you.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    15. Re:Troll by martas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So, we mustn't heed Karl Marx's analysis of the problems of capitalism, because his proposed solution has never been successfully implemented? Does that also mean we should disregard Dr. Robert Gallo's discovery of the HIV virus, because it has not been cured yet?

    16. Re:Troll by sjames · · Score: 1

      Undeniably, Sweden and Norway are much further toward the socialist end of the spectrum than the U.S.

    17. Re: Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously. The U.S. didnt have to spend trillions of dollars rebuilding infrastructure after WW2; Some countries are more fortunate than others. It is what you DO with the wealth that matters.

    18. Re:Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >I've been to, and lived in, and have worked in Britain, Finland and France.

      All nations living under the aegis of the Pax Americana. If Europe had to pay for its own defense, you'd be telling quite a different story, kid.

    19. Re:Troll by skam240 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      See the thing is, it's not a choice between extremes. In fact we have socialist institutions right here in the US that are incredibly popular.

      --
      I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
    20. Re:Troll by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      All nations living under the aegis of the Pax Americana.

      Ten million Russian soldiers died fighting in WWII. You could also say those countries are living under Pax Russiana.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    21. Re: Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What a steaming pile of bullshit.

      Your story is ruined by reality. Capitalism dominates. It is the only system that works in practice, unless you're prepared to murder millions of people.

      Fuck you and your lies.

    22. Re: Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cured? It is the cure, dipshit. The collective worldwide IQ has gone up 10 points because of it.

    23. Re:Troll by khallow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So want to see socialism, first the psychopaths have to go, quite simply they will corrupt any ism they are a part of, attempt to turn it into an authoritarian state where they have control and can dominate and exploit the citizens of that society.

      The problem here is that your so-called "psychopaths" are normal humans exhibiting normal human behavior. That's the thing about capitalism and markets, you don't need to get rid of normal human behavior in order for them to work well.

      The 'Free Market' is straight up marketing lie because it is wholly and totally dependent upon nothing in that market ever being Free, everything 'owned' and 'controlled', so that those with the most can control and exploit those with the least. With everything that can be owned being owned, including all of the essentials to life, so that denial of life becomes the tool of exploitation of the not free at all market place of human lives.

      You don't even know what a market is. It's not some magic controlling beast, it is merely an avenue for trade - trade which you don't have to participate in.

    24. Re:Troll by khallow · · Score: 3, Informative
      The difference is that Dr. Gallo both never claimed to have a cure and never had that cure fail repeatedly and spectacularly in the real world. I think the abject failure of Marx's solutions is a strong indication that his analysis is deeply flawed. But you don't need to take my word for it. There's already a quote from the beginning that we can study:

      "within the capitalist system all methods for raising the social productiveness of labour are brought about at the cost of the individual labourer; all means for the development of production transform themselves into means of domination over, and exploitation of, the producers; they mutilate the labourer into a fragment of a man, degrade him to the level of an appendage of a machine, destroy every remnant of charm in his work and turn it into a hated toil; they estrange from him the intellectual potentialities of the labour process in the same proportion as science is incorporated in it as an independent power; they distort the conditions under which he works, subject him during the labour process to a despotism the more hateful for its meanness; they transform his life-time into working-time, and drag his wife and child beneath the wheels of the Juggernaut of capital."

      The obvious rebuttal is that the premises are false. For example, labor unions are a typical social construct in capitalism that doesn't result in the claimed consequences. Or consider job search engines. Are workers worse off because the hiring process has been improved a bit? Are we, workers worse off due to technological improvements to worker productivity like computers or air conditioning?

      Why should we trust this spew of verbiage when the initial assumptions are patently false?

      And let us not forget that so many people, the middle class (or "bourgeoisie"), just aren't living with this sort of drudgery. Marx tried to ignore this group and categorize thema as being more or less enemies of the working class ("proletariat").

    25. Re: Troll by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      You know, Mayan blood sacrificies weren't real blood sacrificies, because they didn't make it rain...

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    26. Re:Troll by pesho · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I've been to Soviet Russia (Stalingrad (now St. Petersberg)) and lived in it personally, first hand.` Have you? I agree with the poster who said he'd take free market capitalism over socialism ANY DAY.

      And I having been to Leningrad (now St. PetersbUrg) call bullshit on your post. Not only you haven't lived there but you are off by 1000 miles in your geography. I also doubt that you are old enough to have actually lived in Stalingrad and being able to tell about it on Slashdot. Stalingrad was renamed to Volgograd back in 1961. You can say anything about USSR, but they made damn sure they taught their geography and history at school. There is no way for somebody who has lived in USSR to mix Leningrad with Stalingrad. So stop trolling please.

    27. Re:Troll by martas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The difference is that Dr. Gallo both never claimed to have a cure and never had that cure fail repeatedly and spectacularly in the real world.

      Again, what does the cure have to do with the critique? Had Dr. Gallo proposed a cure that was shown not to work, would you be barebacking Nigerian prostitutes?

      The obvious rebuttal is that the premises are false. For example, labor unions are a typical social construct in capitalism that doesn't result in the claimed consequences.

      I don't even know how to begin responding to this. Labor unions grew out of socialist movements in order to organize workers against capitalist forces. In the analogy, claiming that labor unions somehow disprove Marx's observations regarding capitalism is like claiming that condoms disprove AIDS. And that's without even mentioning the fact that Marx would have been very much pro-union, despite your claim of "the abject failure of Marx's solutions". It's just that he knew capitalist forces would continuously fight to erode the power of workers, even unionized ones, which, again, is exactly what's happened in the US from the 70's onward.

      Or consider job search engines. Are workers worse off because the hiring process has been improved a bit? Are we, workers worse off due to technological improvements to worker productivity like computers or air conditioning?

      You can certainly cherry pick examples of technological improvements which seem to have benefited workers (though in the case of hiring practices, I'd argue most recent changes have been horrible for workers), but that's not what the quote is about. The claim in the quote is that the more industrialized production becomes, the less the power of the worker, and the larger the alienation of the worker from the fruits of their labor. The massive increase in prevalence of high turnover, low-wage, low-skill jobs in the US over the last several decades is stark evidence that what Marx was talking about is still happening to this day. This isn't some sort of hypothetical, many people can see that this is happening and it's being discussed heavily in society, especially since the recession. Hell, the very article whose comment section we're in right now is about this!

    28. Re:Troll by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Psychopaths are most definitely not normal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..., nor by any stretch of the imagination could their behaviour be considered normal. As more testing is being done in correctional institutions so the statistics are becoming worse now 1% general population, 15% prison population (some are showing it up to 25%) and 50% of crimes of violence. Distinct genetic traits are being discovered, they could be considered a sub-species of humanity, a parasitic sub-species. A good thing the FBI doesn't agree with your defence of the traits you likely know well https://www.fbi.gov/stats-serv.... Also http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm... "These results indicate that different psychopathic traits as measured by the MPQ show distinct genetically based relations with broad dimensions of DSM psychopathology". So suck it up and make no mistake, they all definitely have psychopaths on the radar and it is a growing global trend, so we definitely are looking to a better future, well, not all of use, psychopaths definitely will be losing the ability to hide amongst us to be able to prey upon the rest of us.

      A market https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..., can mean lots of things, note the only one they didn't list was free market. Separate entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..., so basically a caveat emptor market https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.... Basically in reality the closest we get to a free market would be a 'Fence' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..., interesting in that the products do enter that market upon an actual 'Free' basis and it is unregulated until of course the psychopaths who run it get caught and they regulate right out of existence.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    29. Re:Troll by cvdwl · · Score: 2

      You, sir, are... ok, let's keep this marginally civil. The great bastion of capitalism, the good old United States of America, has higher costs than every country and worse average outcomes than most developed (and a few developing) countries. Look it up, the numbers all everywhere. Life expectancy, infant mortality, etc. I live in one of those "socialist" countries (Italy), and frankly dread their medical system (it appears medieval in many ways), but the results speak for themselves.

      --
      ... grumble, grumble, grumble, mutter, mutter, Millenium... Hand... Shrimp, I tol' 'em, I tol' 'em.
    30. Re: Troll by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's easy to retreat to a True Scotsman argument, but when it comes to political and economic systems there are very few examples of any ideology being completely applied. Not capitalism, not communism, not socialism. Most countries have a blend of several parts of different ideas. Claiming that the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is a shining example of socialism is about as accurate as claiming that the Democratic Republic of Congo is a shining example of a democratic republic. They may have the word in their name, but that's about it. Even the USA makes more use of Marxist ideas than the USSR did for most of its existence.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    31. Re: Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about refuting the points made? You can't because they're rather true. You not only attack the OP but also the original author (Marx) over the behavior of people who came after him and with whom he had nothing to do.

      Then you make the foolish mistake of assuming what we have is 'free market capitalism' when I'm sure your only definition of the term is what Fox News tells you. Taking your chances is exactly what you'll do, because whether you're successful or not in this society is a function of random chance unless your parents were well off.

      The truth hurts, and Marx told the truth on capitalism as it relates to employment.

    32. Re:Troll by dbIII · · Score: 1

      No, the secret is to take that money from a primary industry and spend it in ways that benefit the country.
      Scotland is also "a small, homogeneous population" with "lots of offshore oil" but the oil money was used to finance a shift of the UK as a manufacturing economy to England as a service economy with a focus on financial services. One approach was a success for many and the other made a small percentage of the people in one part of the UK very very rich.
      It could be argued that neither the "Socialist" or "Tory" ideology had anything to do with the difference - merely the difference between acting in the interest of the Nation instead of the interests of some individuals the rulers owe favours to. Good governance versus running things like a fabled jungle despot - the "ism" doesn't have much to do with it.

      So the Norwegians with "a small, homogeneous population" did OK but the Scottish were so badly screwed over that their arses are still spouting blood decades later.

    33. Re:Troll by GNious · · Score: 2

      I've been to Soviet Russia (Stalingrad (now St. Petersberg)) and lived in it personally, first hand.` Have you? I agree with the poster who said he'd take free market capitalism over socialism ANY DAY.

      I've lived in Scandinavian for a LONG time, and I'll take Socialism as it is implemented there, over Free-Market Capitalism ANY DAY.

    34. Re:Troll by dbIII · · Score: 1

      The problem here is that your so-called "psychopaths" are normal humans exhibiting normal human behavior

      Where does this shit come from? By all definitions it is abnormal. Just because there are plenty of incidents does not mean that a significant portion of the population are like that.

    35. Re:Troll by dbIII · · Score: 2

      It's called "democratic socialism" for a reason and does not mean that capitalism is excluded.
      A naive view just leads to stupid arguments, pissing contests and pointless shit about whether Rear-Done metal is real or not.

    36. Re:Troll by onthemightofprinces · · Score: 2

      Exactly. Most of Europe is (or at least was, until the neoliberals started getting into power) built on a foundation of socialism. There is a belief here that services which are for the public good and supply the needs (not wants) of people should not be for-profit. Therefore we have healthcare, emergency services, post, some countries have public transport and so forth which are operated by the state, for the people, and not for shareholders.

    37. Re:Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty much, unless your a gay Marxist. Also Catholics should not heed the Koran.
      What we really need is for the Anarchists to settle down and get organized.

    38. Re:Troll by Freultwah · · Score: 2

      Something does not add up. Nobody, or at least nobody sober would forget the name of their city of residence and Saint Petersburg was called Leningrad during the Soviet times. Were you there, really? Because if you were, why would you mix up the names and why would you want to repeat the experience?

    39. Re:Troll by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      I see you've enjoyed the capitalism too.

      You just backed into my main point. Capitalism exists quite comfortably in socialist countries. They're not mutually exclusive. In fact, they can work quite nicely together in the same civil society.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    40. Re: Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Greed is god, and DOES murder millions of people. GO GADGET CAPITALISM!

    41. Re:Troll by houghi · · Score: 1

      And as far as I know, that wasn't socialism. That was communism. And it was not even that.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    42. Re:Troll by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Officially it was socialism with communism as a long-term goal.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    43. Re:Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It depends on the meaning of the word 'UP'. Socialism brings plenty of people 'up' to higher minimum standards which capitalism fails to do. Capitalism doesn't care whether someone starves. In socialism, those starving people are brought up to a higher standard of living.

    44. Re:Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      US = capitalism, really...

      Euros, the ones the US provides protection for, which still have royalty.
      Britain, a two class system, living off of its dying empire.

    45. Re:Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All nations living under the aegis of the Pax Americana.

      Ten million Russian soldiers died fighting in WWII. You could also say those countries are living under Pax Russiana.

      *rolls eyes* WWII ended 70 years ago; Stalin's gone, Putin's here. Do you have an actual point to make or are you just farming karma from the Europeans?

      (Your knowledge of WWII history is weak anyway. The Allies would most likely have lost the war without US intervention; conversely, the Allies would most likely still have won the war even if Russia had stayed on the Axis side, again with US intervention.)

    46. Re:Troll by operagost · · Score: 1

      I love how Russians brag about how little they value the life of their citizens. Ten million died because they were not well equipped or well led.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    47. Re:Troll by BVis · · Score: 1

      Norway is hardly a socialist hellhole. Matter of fact, it has the highest standard of living in the world, with the USA in fourth.

      Everyone treats "socialism" like it's the N word. Socialism is not inherently a bad thing, but like everything else, too much leads to problems.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    48. Re:Troll by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      *rolls eyes* WWII ended 70 years ago; Stalin's gone, Putin's here. Do you have an actual point to make or are you just farming karma from the Europeans?

      Yes, so where do you get this "Pax Americana" baloney? The Cold War? Please.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    49. Re: Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously. The U.S. didnt have to spend trillions of dollars rebuilding infrastructure after WW2; Some countries are more fortunate than others. It is what you DO with the wealth that matters.

      Well, here in the US we like to start wars with it and let the .1% keep the rest.

    50. Re:Troll by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      Don't mind him. He's just another filthy, parasitic jew trying to undermine his host country. It's what they do.

      Boy, that escalated quickly!

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    51. Re: Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cured? It is the cure, dipshit. The collective worldwide IQ has gone up 10 points because of it.

      The content of your post seems to contradict that. Or are you just an outlier?

    52. Re:Troll by dywolf · · Score: 2

      One?
      Just one?
      That's a pretty low bar.

      Here's 12:
      Denmark
      Norway
      Finland
      Sweden
      Netherlands
      Belgium
      Canada
      Ireland
      New Zealand
      France
      Germany
      UK

      Of the 13 richest nations with the most productive workforces and well-off populaces, 12 are socialist or have extensive state sponsored welfare programs.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    53. Re:Troll by dywolf · · Score: 1

      the USSR wasn't socialist.
      Hell, it really wasn't even communist.
      it was totalitarianism that paid lip service to communism more than anything

      and if that is all you got, you've come to this battle of the wits unarmed.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    54. Re:Troll by dywolf · · Score: 1

      Another history noob who fails to comprehend just how massive the Eastern Front really was.
      Not well equipped? Not well led? Not even close to reality.
      You're just another product of the poorly taught WWII history.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    55. Re:Troll by dywolf · · Score: 1

      (Your knowledge of WWII history is weak anyway. The Allies would most likely have lost the war without US intervention; conversely, the Allies would most likely still have won the war even if Russia had stayed on the Axis side, again with US intervention.)

      Look who's calling the kettle black.
      That is not even lose to accurate. When the overwhelming number of casualties in the war occurred on the Eastern Front, when the overwhelming majority of men and material were expended on that front, the idea that we would have still won if those resources hadn't been spent fighting each other, but had instead been united against the western powers, is pure and utter stupidity.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    56. Re:Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      quote:
      Either we shift to socialism or die as a species, that is the choice, suck it up. /quote

      really? while it's nice of you to give us your opinion, I don't see any deterministic connection between "not-socialism" and "extinction". could you maybe add more detail to step 2?

      Socialism is good, as long as nobody is greedy, selfish, lazy. Or, I guess, in terms of the dictatorships with token socialism, psychotic. But, go look at day-time TV. People ARE lazy, selfish and greedy. And spiteful. And pathetic. And kinda dumb.

      So, the idealized socialism isn't going to work, just like the idealized anarchy that the most extreme of libertarians want, isn't going to work. Completely unfettered capitalism has a lot of flaws too (not saying it dont).

      But so far, a mix seems better than trying any of the ideals.

    57. Re:Troll by dywolf · · Score: 1

      youre free market ignorance accepts the dog eat dog screw anyone to get ahead mentality as normal, in which some or many suffer so the few can prosper obscenely relative to the weakest.

      it has this way through out human history. yes some tribes lived that way. but typically not long, particularly once the strongman died. he most successful tribes, and now nations, are those that DO seek a greater equality among their members, allowing all to prosper and benefit, not just the strongest amongst them.

      what that mentality misses is that it doesn't have to be that way. every can benefit at the same time. in our a world someone with 100 billion dollars doesn't really live all that much better than someone with only 1 billion. yet that same 99billion excess would raise the comfort and quality of life of several thousand peoples, while that billionaire loses almost nothing in the exchange.

      that's why a pure free market, why pure capitalism, is untenable.
      it does really good as making an economy work, and allocating resources.
      but it royally screws over the people at the edges.
      it chews them up and spits them out, creating new edges as it consumes the weakest in the group, constantly shrinking the size of the group it benefits.

      that's why its "rough edges" need smoothed out and controlled. the marriage of capitalism and socialism is like an attraction between opposites, as each complements the other, balancing out their inadequacies creating a whole that is stronger than the sum of its parts.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    58. Re:Troll by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      In socialism, those starving people are brought up to a higher standard of living.

      The 30 million people that starved to death in the Great Leap Forward, and the seven million that died in the Holodomor, would disagree.

    59. Re: Troll by Sardaukar86 · · Score: 1

      What a thoroughly compelling argument, I really can't see how the parent got +5 and you were left to languish at 0 following such a deeply insightful rebuttal.

      --
      ..Mullah or Pope, Preacher or Poet, who was it wrote: "Give any one species too much rope and they'll fuck it up"?
    60. Re:Troll by Sardaukar86 · · Score: 1

      You don't even know what a market is. It's not some magic controlling beast, it is merely an avenue for trade - trade which you don't have to participate in.

      But you really do have to participate.

      Even growing your own veggies requires land and resources. Solar panels, water, wastewater, healthcare and Internet access, travel and so on - none of this is free. Even living as one estranged from society, it cannot be escaped that whatever land you walk or sleep upon is invariably owned publicly or privately and where there's ownership there are always 'terms of use', for want of a better phrase.

      Death is no release either - cremation and burial both attract some rather large fees that must be paid in some fashion by somebody.

      --
      ..Mullah or Pope, Preacher or Poet, who was it wrote: "Give any one species too much rope and they'll fuck it up"?
    61. Re:Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do not confuse Stalinism or Maoism with socialism, those first two where strictly police states with the masquerade of what ever political system they were pretending to be. This being no different to Nazism

      So... how do you monitor everyone to know what everyone is making, and be able to take enough from the earners/suppliers in order to distribute that to the needy, correctly, without an omnipotent/omniscient government figure?

      Socialism requires a police state to function correctly, numb-nuts. If they can't punish you for holding back your earnings, then they can't redistribute your wealth, and therefore can't care for those that don't have enough. The more they want to "provide" -- the more they have to take. The more they have to take, the stronger their arm must be in order to coerce the less-than-eager earners from keeping their earnings.

      Family does not function the same, because the top earner acts as the "state" and has access to the funds without coercion and has access to knowledge of who-has-what vs. who-needs-what without agents of domestic surveillance -- they just look around the dinner table.

    62. Re:Troll by Sardaukar86 · · Score: 0

      Sweden's economy is based in manufacturing and export of those manufactured goods, rather than dependent on a single intrinsically valuable but eventually limited natural resource.

      If Sweden wants a truly sustainable economy they need only find a way to turn a profit from all the rapists they've invited to live with them from other countries.

      (yeah, I know, I'll pay for this comment in Hell)

      --
      ..Mullah or Pope, Preacher or Poet, who was it wrote: "Give any one species too much rope and they'll fuck it up"?
    63. Re:Troll by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      So want to see socialism, first the psychopaths have to go, quite simply they will corrupt any ism they are a part of, attempt to turn it into an authoritarian state where they have control and can dominate and exploit the citizens of that society.

      So socialism is pretty much out then?

    64. Re:Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you a fucking idiot? How many fucking Russian Migs are stationed in Germany's airbases?

      NATO sees Russia as a threat, not as an ally, you stupid piece of shit.

    65. Re:Troll by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Yeah well, spending over half-trillion per year in military expenditures comes at a societal cost. If those aforementioned socialist nations picked up the slack I doubt they'd have much of a welfare program left.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    66. Re:Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because Sweden and Finland and Norway and most of Northern Europe are SUCH oppressive police states....

    67. Re:Troll by khallow · · Score: 1

      Small amounts of socialism exists quite comfortably in capitalist countries.

      FIFY. It's worth remembering that all these countries have severely cut back on a lot of their socialist policies. Turns out, for example, that it wasn't a good idea to have a government phone company.

      And we need to keep in mind that the fundamental characteristics of these countries is not that they happen to have socialist policies, but rather that they have capitalism, rule of law, and democracy. The combination of those three pretty much guarantees that they'll have comfortable and to some degree, affordable socialist policies.

    68. Re:Troll by khallow · · Score: 1
      Don't waste my time with this amateur pop psychology. You describe common human behavior. That right there makes it normal. It's only your rhetorical spin (and most certainly not some sort of clinical evaluation) that declares this behavior to be "psychopathy". Your semantics games won't disguise that people will behave like people, no matter how you choose to label the behavior or how deviant and abnormal you choose to think that behavior is.

      Only a system which can handle and channel that behavior productively will work. Capitalism is one such system.

      A market can mean lots of things

      It doesn't mean what you claimed.

      Basically in reality the closest we get to a free market would be a 'Fence', interesting in that the products do enter that market upon an actual 'Free' basis and it is unregulated until of course the psychopaths who run it get caught and they regulate right out of existence.

      Black markets don't cease to exist because a few people get caught every now and then. And of course, due to the illegality usually associated with such things, they aren't free markets.

      Free markets are only approximate. Nobody ever claims the ideal can be achieved. But they tend to be good at the task of matching people who need stuff with people who supply it. That's it. That's all they are supposed to do.

    69. Re:Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ten million Russian soldiers died trying to take over as much of Eastern Europe as possible in WWII. You could also say those countries are living under a Pax Russiana if you could find an equivalent to the Warsaw Uprising on the western front.

      And this is coming from an America-hating socialist who happens to also be a political refugee from communist Poland. You can't equate the roles of Russia and the USA in WWII. Russia was fighting for territorial gains first and the liberty of the Allies was an afterthought, if that.

    70. Re:Troll by khallow · · Score: 1

      Where does this shit come from? By all definitions it is abnormal. Just because there are plenty of incidents does not mean that a significant portion of the population are like that.

      Just an observation of normal human behavior. Labeling it abnormal and claiming it's not common is just delusion.

    71. Re:Troll by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Capitalism works no better. There are MANY limits to capitalism on normal human behavior which are required for it to work well. And from 1980 to 2000 many of those limitations were removed because the concentration of wealth and power grew great enough to capture the government.

      We are now in an oligarchy and the fed is trying desperately to avoid a crash worse than the great depression.

      I think capitalism needs *less* ivory tower idealism but everything gets corrupted over time until it finally is collapsed and replaced with something different and our current iteration of capitalism is massively corrupted from "free" capitalism. If we had free capitalism, workers in the 1st world would benefit from being able to buy prices at market price instead of artificial regional prices. So sure, your wages would be under pressure, but you could buy blood pressure medicine for 10 cents a day like they do in india, and first run hollywood movies for an eighth the price like they do in china.

      And the government wouldn't be setting interest rate at zero to prevent deflation. Deflation should have been occuring in the u.s. for the last 16 years.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    72. Re:Troll by nbauman · · Score: 1

      In socialism, those starving people are brought up to a higher standard of living.

      The 30 million people that starved to death in the Great Leap Forward, and the seven million that died in the Holodomor, would disagree.

      Well, which is it? Did 7 million Ukrainians die because of the inefficiencies of socialism, or did they die because Stalin was trying to exterminate unreliable nationalists (who later allied with the Nazis)?

    73. Re:Troll by nbauman · · Score: 1

      GP said, " Name one country, where the people have moved UP in life, that runs under socialism"

      My post accomplished that, simply raising the bar in order to try and prove some other point that the answer was not intended for is just an exercise in public masturbation

      And he started out by excluding China, which has one of the strongest manufacturing-based economies in the world.

      (And is similar to free-market India in many ways.)

    74. Re:Troll by khallow · · Score: 1

      But you really do have to participate.

      But my point wasn't complete and perfect disengagement from current human society, though that is achievable, but rather that with modest work and good life choices, you can choose what trades you make. There's simply too huge a span between your modest needs and what you can acquire from the world to support the claim that markets "own" or "control" us as the original poster claimed.

    75. Re:Troll by nbauman · · Score: 1

      Obama!? Wow, if you believe he is anything near a socialist (or communist) then you have bought the right-wing propaganda a little too much. At least Roger Ailes can rest easy knowing he is still doing a good job.

      And your high school economics teacher should be ashamed of himself.

    76. Re: Troll by babybird · · Score: 1

      The No True Scotsman fallacy is not always an actual fallacy, and invoking it doesn't automatically make the argument invalid or incorrect. It only makes it suspect, and require further investigation or provenance, because the No True Scotsman argument itself is not adequate proof to either support or not support the thesis point.

      All you've done is deflect the argument by deliberately ignoring its point and any evidence supporting it due to also invoking a No True Scotsman fallacy, which is itself a fallacy.

      --
      Keith D.
    77. Re:Troll by khallow · · Score: 1

      youre free market ignorance accepts the dog eat dog screw anyone to get ahead mentality as normal, in which some or many suffer so the few can prosper obscenely relative to the weakest.

      And what does that have to do with markets?

      it has this way through out human history. yes some tribes lived that way. but typically not long, particularly once the strongman died. he most successful tribes, and now nations, are those that DO seek a greater equality among their members, allowing all to prosper and benefit, not just the strongest amongst them.

      There are two things to note here. First, this demonstrates the absurdity of the original poster's claim that this common human behavior, displayed throughout history, is "abnormal".

      Second, markets readily provide that equality, that prosperity, and that benefit.

      what that mentality misses is that it doesn't have to be that way. every can benefit at the same time. in our a world someone with 100 billion dollars doesn't really live all that much better than someone with only 1 billion. yet that same 99billion excess would raise the comfort and quality of life of several thousand peoples, while that billionaire loses almost nothing in the exchange.

      Which would be a huge waste of that vast wealth. If one looks at people with wealth in that neighborhood, one sees two kinds of people, those who obtained it through mostly beneficial and productive activities and those who obtained it by stealing vast amounts from others. The above robin hood impulse you display helps the latter group thrive. They are smarter about stealing than you are.

      Further, it's worth noting that the hundred billionaire, even of the parasitic sort, employs far more than a few thousand people. They are already doing more to help their fellow man than your theft of their wealth would do.

      that's why a pure free market, why pure capitalism, is untenable. it does really good as making an economy work, and allocating resources. but it royally screws over the people at the edges. it chews them up and spits them out, creating new edges as it consumes the weakest in the group, constantly shrinking the size of the group it benefits.

      Well, there is this huge gap between a pure free market and stealing 99% of some rich dude's wealth because you think he has too much and wouldn't miss it. I just think that the sweet spot is a hell of a lot closer to a pure free market.

    78. Re:Troll by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      And we need to keep in mind that the fundamental characteristics of these countries is not that they happen to have socialist policies, but rather that they have capitalism, rule of law, and democracy. The combination of those three pretty much guarantees that they'll have comfortable and to some degree, affordable socialist policies.

      Did I just get khallow to endorse some level of socialism? Please wait a second while I skypoint for a bit...

      Unfortunately for those European Socialist countries since the EU was formed, the new late-stage capitalism financial aristocracy is using disaster capitalism to create all sorts of havoc. I don't know if they're taking after us, or we're taking after them.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    79. Re:Troll by nbauman · · Score: 1

      Hell, I was even there long enough to have experienced their health care system after I got a wisdom tooth removed in Helsinki. Cost me $25 (which the dentist wouldn't take because he said it had been a pleasure to practice English with me).

      Just because it didn't cost you a lot doesn't mean it was cheap. Capitalism paid for that bit of social welfare.

      It was cheap because the Finnish health care system costs half as much per capita as the US health care system.

      While the Soviet Communism had many great accomplishments, I wouldn't praise their freedom of expression.

      While US capitalism had many accomplishments, I wouldn't praise their health care system. It's the most expensive in the world. For those who can easily afford to spend $100,000 for a major illness, and have the skills to shop for health care, it's a good system, with outcomes as good as the other developed countries like Canada. For those who don't have that kind of money, they leave sick people to die. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/1...

      The major accomplishments of our health care system, like the new $100,000 a year drugs, are mostly the results of government grants to academic researchers, whose universities sell the rights to private companies.

      I will acknowledge that for rare and hard-to-diagnose diseases, we do have some of the best medical centers in the world. People come from Canada and elsewhere to be treated at the National Institutes of Health campus -- oops! Socialized medicine.

      And for treating soldiers with head wounds and missing limbs (of which we have so many from Iraq and Afghanistan) the US military and VA health care system is the best in the world -- oops! Socialized medicine.

    80. Re:Troll by nbauman · · Score: 1

      socialism doesn't work for anyone except a few parasites at the top who take everything and the 20% of the parasites at the bottom who wouldn't work for anything anywhere.

      Whereas capitalism is the reverse.

    81. Re:Troll by nbauman · · Score: 1

      You don't even know what a market is. It's not some magic controlling beast, it is merely an avenue for trade - trade which you don't have to participate in.

      Well, let's see. You're telling me that if I have cancer, and it would cost $50,000 to treat me, and I don't have $50,000 www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1312793 , I'm free not to participate in the market.

      That doesn't sound like a good deal to me. What would I get under socialism?

    82. Re:Troll by khallow · · Score: 1

      Had Dr. Gallo proposed a cure that was shown not to work, would you be barebacking Nigerian prostitutes?

      You can certainly cherry pick examples of technological improvements which seem to have benefited workers

      That's how counterexamples to a universal claim work. I cherrypicked a counterexample, thus, the claim is false, end of story. Further, some of these counterexamples are pretty damn broad, like computers or air conditioning.

      The claim in the quote is that the more industrialized production becomes, the less the power of the worker, and the larger the alienation of the worker from the fruits of their labor.

      Which again is patently false. The US has being industrializing for a long time and the power of the worker has increased for most of that time.

      The massive increase in prevalence of high turnover, low-wage, low-skill jobs in the US over the last several decades is stark evidence that what Marx was talking about is still happening to this day.

      That labor is competing with foreign labor that is vastly cheaper. Further, the US have a lot of supposedly pro-labor regulation, policy, and law that has made this particular problem worse. When you interfere with employment and drive up its cost, sabotage new business creation, and just in general, make your society a crappier place to employ people, then it's no surprise that employees have less bargaining power than they used to.

    83. Re:Troll by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Not really. The reality is that by far the greatest threat to rich old psychopaths is poor young psychopaths and as such, the rich old ones will be pushing it, in order to protect themselves and their ill gotten gains and they will be quite ruthless about it as they become more aware of it. It is always all about them, each to themselves upon an individual basis.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    84. Re:Troll by khallow · · Score: 1

      Capitalism works no better. There are MANY limits to capitalism on normal human behavior which are required for it to work well. And from 1980 to 2000 many of those limitations were removed because the concentration of wealth and power grew great enough to capture the government.

      Reality disagrees. As I've pointed out many times before on Slashdot, in the last twenty years, two thirds of humanity saw an increase of roughly 30% or more in their income adjusted for inflation. That is a huge change that is unparalleled in human history. And the obvious cause is global trade. Capitalism drives that trade.

      We already have that capitalism works better especially in the presence of the "psychopaths". The psychopaths don't "need to go", they need to be regulated and channeled. Capitalism does that.

      And the government wouldn't be setting interest rate at zero to prevent deflation. Deflation should have been occuring in the u.s. for the last 16 years.

      Why veer into monetary policy? It's just not that important. Whether the money administrators manage the currency well or auger it into the ground, the society still remains and new currencies can be created in order to continue to trade.

    85. Re:Troll by martas · · Score: 1

      That's how counterexamples to a universal claim work. I cherrypicked a counterexample, thus, the claim is false, end of story. Further, some of these counterexamples are pretty damn broad, like computers or air conditioning.

      Except it's not a universal claim, it's a claim regarding a universal trees. If you find a tree growing sideways, you won't have disproved that trees tend to grow upward.

      Which again is patently false. The US has being industrializing for a long time and the power of the worker has increased for most of that time.

      Yes, via decidedly extra-capitalistic forces like the lives of labor activists that were slaughtered by the decidedly capitalistic hired guns of steel magnates. I feel like you're confused about something -- the US is not an example of unfettered capitalism. So you can't simply point to something in the US and say "see! that can happen in capitalism!" You have to put in the extra couple of seconds of thought to figure out whether said phenomenon occurred due to capitalism, or in spite of it.

      That labor is competing with foreign labor that is vastly cheaper. Further, the US have a lot of supposedly pro-labor regulation, policy, and law that has made this particular problem worse. When you interfere with employment and drive up its cost, sabotage new business creation, and just in general, make your society a crappier place to employ people, then it's no surprise that employees have less bargaining power than they used to.

      Again, you're supporting Marx there. Capitalist forces using the state to further take advantage of workers was one of his main themes.

      You know, I'm pretty sure you have some kind of emotional need to believe that you disagree with Marx, without knowing what it is you're actually disagreeing with. Is it the propaganda-instilled instincts doing their work, or what?

    86. Re:Troll by khallow · · Score: 1

      That doesn't sound like a good deal to me. What would I get under socialism?

      Heh, quite a bit till you run out of other peoples' money. Funny how many of the socialism arguments boil down to greed.

    87. Re:Troll by nbauman · · Score: 1

      That doesn't sound like a good deal to me. What would I get under socialism?

      Heh, quite a bit till you run out of other peoples' money. Funny how many of the socialism arguments boil down to greed.

      If I pay taxes, it's my money too.

      When I read the Wall Street Journal editorial page, they said that all their arguments boiled down to greed. Greed is good, they said.

    88. Re:Troll by maestroX · · Score: 1

      The problem here is that your so-called "psychopaths" are normal humans exhibiting normal human behavior.

      Stalin, Pol pot, Churchill and Hitler were most definitely mentally ill, ranging from bipolar, antisocial to sociopath.
      Paranoia is not normal, morphine addication is not normal.
      Frauding is not normal; http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_...
      Know that a (normal) human is very much a group creature; favoring ruthless individuals in the market will favor humans without group capabilities.
      Whatever merits the current market (or any free market, if possible), favoring individuals unequally with more than 7 billion people around is bound to problems

    89. Re:Troll by khallow · · Score: 1

      If I pay taxes, it's my money too.

      There's always some excuse why you deserve it. I don't buy that it is your money and I don't buy that you deserve expensive health care that you are unwilling to pay for yourself.

    90. Re:Troll by khallow · · Score: 1
      The obvious rebuttal is that leaders of state are very much group creatures. For example, Hitler didn't kill six million Jews all by himself.

      Whatever merits the current market (or any free market, if possible), favoring individuals unequally with more than 7 billion people around is bound to problems

      Problems that don't really exist, let us note. I have no problem with exceptional individuals being favored over 7 billion or so people who aren't exceptional.

    91. Re:Troll by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Yet the experts declare that if you think it is normal we should be a bit worried about how you are going to act.

    92. Re:Troll by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I should have either noted that it's not a direct criticism of the post by "thinkwaitfast" or placed it elsewhere. There are a lot of naive views here that argue in absolutes but the above poster is not pushing them.

    93. Re:Troll by khallow · · Score: 1

      They don't. You are misusing psychological tools to argue imaginary things on the internet. The behavior that is considered "psychopathic" here has nothing to do with the clinical definition.

    94. Re:Troll by nbauman · · Score: 1

      If I pay taxes, it's my money too.

      There's always some excuse why you deserve it. I don't buy that it is your money and I don't buy that you deserve expensive health care that you are unwilling to pay for yourself.

      It certainly is my money. I pay taxes like everybody else, and I'm entitled to a share of what the government does with my money, according to the laws that my elected representatives passed.

      You're saying that if I've been paying taxes all my life, and I have cancer and I could be cured for $50,000, but I don't have $50,000, the government should leave me to die, like that guy in the NEJM article http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/1...

      I don't believe that and most American don't believe that. I don't think there's a developed country in the world where they believe that.

    95. Re:Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reality disagrees.

      Except of course, when it doesn't. While the GP is probably thinking of a few specific regulations that got removed, government as a whole has been growing, not shrinking. There's more regulation. There's more spending. Government is meddling in more aspects of people's lives than ever. The world became LESS capitalist in the last twenty years (and longer), not more.

      In reality, it's not capitalism that drives trade. Consumers drive trade, and consumers don't care whether their consumption is funded by capitalism or socialism.

      Think of it this way: when you hand over some USD to buy an iPad (which is made in China, ergo when you buy it, you're driving global trade), they don't care whether that money came from you working hard at your job, or from cashing your welfare check.

      All that increased income and prosperity you spoke of is just the stage in socialism before we ran out of other people's money.

    96. Re:Troll by khallow · · Score: 1

      In reality, it's not capitalism that drives trade. Consumers drive trade, and consumers don't care whether their consumption is funded by capitalism or socialism.

      The humans of a hundred thousand years ago would probably like a lot of the stuff we have now (say like comfy homes that can keep out large predators and a plentiful food supply that means they don't have to work to live). But despite their demand, they didn't get what they wanted.

      Consumers don't make the stuff or services we use. They don't deliver them either. There is a vast, almost completely private infrastructure that does that. Consumption doesn't inherently create or do anything.

    97. Re:Troll by khallow · · Score: 1

      You're saying that if I've been paying taxes all my life, and I have cancer and I could be cured for $50,000, but I don't have $50,000, the government should leave me to die, like that guy in the NEJM article http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/1...

      Sounds good to me. Fuck off. I'm tired of the pretentious, entitled parasites who can be bought for an empty promise.

    98. Re:Troll by dbIII · · Score: 1

      They don't. You are misusing psychological tools to argue imaginary things on the internet.

      ...

      The problem here is that your so-called "psychopaths" are normal humans exhibiting normal human behavior.

      You are so focused on playing silly little troll games on the net that you just checkmated YOURSELF. If you argue both sides you always lose.

    99. Re:Troll by khallow · · Score: 1

      Nope, I'm not playing your game. You wrote " By all definitions it is abnormal." That is the imaginary problem created by considering "definitions" rather than the reality of how people behave and act.

    100. Re:Troll by nbauman · · Score: 1

      You're saying that if I've been paying taxes all my life, and I have cancer and I could be cured for $50,000, but I don't have $50,000, the government should leave me to die, like that guy in the NEJM article http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/1...

      Sounds good to me. Fuck off. I'm tired of the pretentious, entitled parasites who can be bought for an empty promise.

      You sound like a parasite to me. You want the government to do things for you, but you don't want the government to do things for anybody else.

    101. Re:Troll by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      In 1941, the Red Army was generally badly led, primarily because of Stalin's purges. These left officers in command of formations they had little idea how to command (promotion was very rapid, if you escaped the purges), and too frightened to do anything the least bit suspicious or original. The top commanders were mostly politically reliable and militarily inept (Kirponos, in the south, being something of an exception). By the end of 1941, the Red Army had had a lot of deadwood shaken out. Officers were still in commands they didn't have the experience for, but they were capable of learning and not afraid to do what it took to win. However, the Germans had taken millions of prisoners by then, and due to incredibly brutal treatment very few of them survived to the end of the war.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    102. Re:Troll by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Economically, it was state socialism rather than some form of capitalism. It started out paying much more than lip service to Communism, with ideology held as far more important than mere people.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    103. Re:Troll by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      You're claiming that Marx's premises are false because they don't fully apply nowadays. In fact, some ideas Marx shared got woven into capitalism.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    104. Re:Troll by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      This is something that I think US Hollywood glosses over a bit...

      I think it was more like 20 million... Germany wasn't brought down by the US, but by fighting Russia in the east, who while incurring horrific losses, probably inflicted more damage to the German war machine than anyone else...

    105. Re:Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Finland
      Norway
      Ireland
      Netherlands
      Canada
      Sweden
      New Zealand
      Belgium
      Denmark
      Do you feel dumb yet?

    106. Re:Troll by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      I think it was more like 20 million...

      That may be. The official numbers estimate 10 million military and 14 million civilians. Either way, without Russia soaking up everything Hitler could muster against them, there might well not have been enough time to plan for a Normandy invasion before England was gone. The costs were horrific, and Americans who forget that it wasn't just G.I. Joe that defeated the Nazis dishonor themselves.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    107. Re:Troll by operagost · · Score: 1

      Thanks. And to address my other assertion, while the T-34 was a fantastic tank, it and other advanced weapons didn't make it onto the front lines until the winter of 41/42.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    108. Re:Troll by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      That is not even lose to accurate. When the overwhelming number of casualties in the war occurred on the Eastern Front, when the overwhelming majority of men and material were expended on that front, the idea that we would have still won if those resources hadn't been spent fighting each other, but had instead been united against the western powers, is pure and utter stupidity.

      You're making the great mistake of assuming that if ten million Russians died on the eastern front, then if Russia was neutral that at least ten million more Allied soldiers would have died on the western front. But the Russians did not have the equipment, the manufacturing base, and the resources that the Allies had. Maybe later, but that point, they pretty much just had Russians. They had lots and lots and lots of Russians, and the threw them at the Germans in the millions and let their country's natural hostile winters do the rest.

    109. Re:Troll by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      This ignores the growing reality that today's farmers produce 100x the output that they did less than a century ago.
      Similar productivity gains elsewhere.

      Once robots become ubiquitous we either have a mass dieoff or mass socialism.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  26. Invisible hand = rules of the game. by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

    evil lives at the extremes

    Wish I had mod points.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  27. No where is safe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Use to be the government have strong job security. The government shutdown has deeply impacted morale. There is STEM-ridge and people are leaving for the private sector. Who can blame them?

  28. Typical scare story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So I know that stories are created, but it's not the new norm just because a really small percentage have lost their jobs! Horrible for them yes, absolutely. But that's just another scare story which does not do anything positive or valuable to anyone. Promoting negative articles is for the boys that only get paid to make negative stories, not the open press that don't have to cowtow to "paid for" editors. Who in turn have to answer to someone who want crap like this published as they think it's the only thing that sells. Is this not an open forum which does not have to follow their guidelines?

  29. Demand a Job Guarantee - seriously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The US is the most well-suited country on the planet, for pursuing a Job Guarantee as an official and permanent government policy.

    What this is, is a government provided jobs program (think 'New Deal Forever', but with a much wider range of potential jobs available - remember, government can afford to hire people to perform almost any kind of socially beneficial roles, the jobs don't have to turn a profit), where people are temporarily employed at the minimum wage, and then workers are gradually re-employed by the private sector, as the private economy improves.

    This policy:
    1: Helps the private sector recover in economic bad times (through boosting Aggregate-Demand/GDP).
    2: Reduces both Public and Private Debt burdens in the medium/long run (by boosting the 'GDP' component of 'Public/Private Debt vs GDP', and providing workers with money to pay down debts)
    3: Works against the threat of deflation (when banks are unable to increase the amount of money in the economy through loans, this public spending makes up for that).

    4: Provides a more efficient way for preventing excessive inflation (presently, central bank policies for avoiding inflation, involve constricting the economy and increasing unemployment - a Job Guarantee is more efficient, as the central-bank/government can constrict parts of the private economy that are overinflating, flowing workers into the Job Guarantee, where they can be put to work on jobs that put less of a strain on inflation, or e.g. infrastructure jobs which make the economy more efficient and thus less inflationary).

    5: This policy can put a permanent end to unemployment - instead of wasting workers potential and letting their skills stagnate through unemployment (as well as suffering the negative health effects of unemployment), this puts them to good use an keeps them sharp.

    6: Less job insecurity, as private sector business will have to offer better incentives to lure workers out of the minimum wage Job Guarantee, and no worker will ever be in fear of having no job again due to the Job Guarantee (increasing workers bargaining power, relative to employers).

    7: Disability and other serious impairments will no longer be a barrier to having a job, in many (maybe most) cases, as the Job Guarantee would be able to offer almost any kind of work that is socially beneficial. The US already has a Job Guarantee of sorts for disabled folk, though not of the same breadth.

    The Chartalist/Modern Money branch of the Post-Keynesian economic school have pioneered this idea, and they have an entire complete policy framework that can be used for implementing this - more people should be learning about this, and demanding that it be implemented.

  30. It's also the old normal. by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 1

    Aside from a few decades of prosperity following WWII things have been pretty rough for 99% of Americans all along.

  31. Two way street by paiute · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Some decades ago, the multinational I worked for was all excited to get us to work like the Japanese, who were so gungho that they gathered before work to sing the company song. We responded that we would gladly do that in return for guaranteed lifetime job security. (Crickets.)

    --
    If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    1. Re:Two way street by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do they have job security in Japan (anymore)?

      What I'd like to see in the U.S.
      A negative income tax or basic income.

      Negative income tax...
      If Poverty Level > Federal AGI, then (Poverty Level - Federal AGI) / 2 = Credit

      Basic income
      Assuming living expenses are reduced when people are married.
      For permanent residents (Green Card) and citizens only.
      Probably paid for by a variety of taxes, but perhaps a new "UBI tax" of 10% on personal income.
      21 and under, $250/month/individual
      22-66, $500/month/individual or $750/month/couple
      67+, $750/month/individual or $1125/month/couple; or Social Security, whichever is more

      I base 22 years old based on the age for S.N.A.P.
      I think retirement is about 65-67, so I base that upper part on that.
      This isn't a bonus to Social Security (or Social Security at any age), so if one receives it, it goes by whichever is greater.
      With that being said, I assume that most over 67+ will probably won't see anything additional.
      Assumptions I've making...
      37.5 million couples (75 million total people) would receive $337.5 billion per year.
      75 million unmarried individuals would receive $450 billion per year.
      75 million 21 and younger would receive (perhaps by the parents if a minor) $225 billion per year.
      Total cost $1.0125 trillion/year.

      Now, if we scrap foodstamps (SNAP), I say increase the values above by $200/month/individual regardless of married status. $720 billion per year more. I say we don't scrap SNAP. In fact, I think we shouldn't get rid of the 3 month/3 year thing, but that's another issue I won't go into.

      This would benefit many people. Poor people can pool their resources and perhaps rent a shared space together. Maybe not in large expensive cities though. But freelances and other people who enjoy doing certain things would not need to worry to the same extent as they perhaps do now.

  32. is this really new? by lano1106 · · Score: 1

    I have started my software dev career in 1999 just before the techno bubble have bursted. I was working at Nortel Networks at that time. It feels that what is described in this story is pretty much the norm since at least the last 15 years, at least for me.

    Move along folks, there is nothing to see here...

    1. Re:is this really new? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And we accept this .. why? We have more technology, resources, information, and energy than ever before, yet this only benefits a few people?

      Why do we use ancient social models when our capabilities have changed so much?

  33. Just clap louder. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    Did we really need a sociologist to tell us that job insecurity is the new normal? Did they talk to anyone who works for a living?

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  34. WTF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does it really take a Sociologist with a masters degree to state the obvious fact people have actually been living with for the past 30 plus years? Is this some shining light piercing the darkness?

  35. That's lovely by rsilvergun · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Now where do I start? 1. The "Luxuries" you speak of are pretty much Cell Phones, cable tv / Internet and eating out once a week. These are a drop in the bucket next to the cost of a car/house/college education. Get rid of all the luxuries you want, it won't make up for the 40 years of declining wages while productivity has more or less doubled.

    2. I like this one: "learn a practical skill". Reminds me of a neighbor of mine who'd been to night school 3 times and each time seen her new career outsourced. What you really means is "Somehow develop a significantly higher IQ as if by magic so you can get the STEM degree that you couldn't get when you were 18".

    3. The working class doesn't get to pick where they live. It's expensive as hell to up and move. You live where you're born and hope for the best. If people could just move somewhere that's better there'd be no 3rd world countries.

    4. See Point # 1.

    5. See this. Specifically the chorus ("Turning 30, 40, 50 gotta move in with my Parents...").

    Fuck the American Dream. It's a bill of goods we've all been sold.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:That's lovely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All economic models either:

      1) Support the steady flow of wealth from the poor to the already-rich,

      -or-

      2) Are dead on arrival.

      It is not as if a specific crop of bad politicians or industry giants has put us in our predicament. Different choices made in the past would have put us right where we are, by a different path.

      Historically speaking, the situation reaches a toppling point, and there is a violent revolution, and then the cycle starts over. Up until recently, the *only* thing you could do was try to figure out where you were in the cycle, and position yourself advantageously (usually meaning, stand on someone's back, or be stood on).

      Awareness raising, political involvement, shifts in cultural values...none of these things will break this cycle. They have all been tried before. Not a one of them worked.

      The only thing that might be a game changer is.......(sorry for being trite and cliched, but it is true)....robots! With enough automated labor, human slave labor will no longer be needed, and the cycle will be broken. Don't get me wrong, there will still be terrible injustice during the transitional phase. Given the basic selfishness of most humans, I expect that automation will just mean poor people are given nothing at all (neither providence nor options), so they turn to crime, get arrested, and an entire generation of people will die off in the prisons. Then the population will be down to sustainable levels and the machines will do most of the work.

      That's the best case scenario anyway. The utopian scenarios are bunk, and all other alternatives are even more horrible than this.

    2. Re:That's lovely by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      This guy built a crappy little house for a few thousand dollars (I did the same thing). You can save quite a bit of money this way until you can pay cash for something better. An engineer friend lived in a truck for 5 years (work showers), then paid cash for a nice house (in 2009).

    3. Re:That's lovely by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      The working class doesn't get to pick where they live. It's expensive as hell to up and move

      I'm not totally convinced by this. The poorer you are, the less likely you are to own your own house. That makes moving a lot cheaper (selling a house is expensive, changing rented accommodation is inconvenient but not nearly as expensive).

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    4. Re:That's lovely by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      As a percentage of your available funds though it's more. (and often more than you have)

    5. Re:That's lovely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Cell phones are $50 a month. Cable TV is $50 a month. Eating out is $100 a month. Here's a car you could own for that:

      http://www.nissan.ca/en/cars/micra

      2. The practical skill isn't to get a job with. It's so you can stop spending money and use the time you're not working to your advantage. For example, learn to fix your home. Learn to fix your car. Learn to garden (less obvious, but your home's value goes up).

      3. Hilarious. As a member of the working class, I've moved 3 times in 10 years. My father was a plumber and moved 8 times in 20 years. You can too. Just dump the crap. The last move of *my* stuff took 1 pickup truck and one van.

      4. You realize that entire song is encouraging Americans to stop putting trust in making money and put trust in themselves instead, right? Practical skills and an ability to live under your income are how you stop trusting money and trust yourself. *THIS* is exactly why you're fucked. You can't see the forest for the trees.

  36. New norm?? by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I arrived at America in the 1970's, and immediately plunged into the job market (Chinatown) because I practically had no money with me

    After schooling and so on (paid for with the slave wages I got from working in Chinatown and other places) I 'upgraded' my career into research institutions

    After that I was (repeatedly) head-hunted and ended up working in a string of tech companies

    None of the places I worked had any of the 'job security' clause in the agreement - and in fact, more than one time I've seen long-time employees being escorted by security guards out of the building, with only an envelop with the pink-slip inside and a cardboard carton of personal belongings cleansed out of the cubicle of that employee

    I do not know where the that 'sociologist' got his 'new norm" from, but in the good ol' U. S. of A., I never had any sense of 'job security' since 1970's, at least not until I started my own businesses

    Unlike research papers dealing with real science, many of the 'research reports' from those 'sociologists' make no freaking sense whatsoever

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:New norm?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of the time I was laid off the company would immediately cut me checks for the current pay cycle, the following pay cycle and sizeable severance pay. I'm not sure if most tech companies still do that, since I haven't worked for one in years.

    2. Re:New norm?? by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Taco,
      I understand you come from a different angle on this whole 'merica thing.
      For a large portion of the population, for the years from say 1950 until the late 1980's it was totally normal to get a job out of high school, to join a union associate with that job and to work that job until retirement, with a decent pension. This was not unusual for white collar (professional, non-union) positions either.

      Just how common this was started to trend downward through the 1990's, both in the union trades (which were decimated as legacy companies failed to keep up with quality and production) and in white collar positions as eager workers from overseas (familiar?) hit the job market and demonstrated their capabilities and lack of expectation of a life-long position with a pension.

      Some upper executives made the mistake of believing that all over-seas applicants where as capable or enthusiastic as the first (and second, third) wave of fresh minds that hit the job market, when in fact they were the upper percent of a percent of their nation's respective bell curves, and started making plans to pitch their local workers under the bus in hopes of bringing on endless droves of freakin braniacs who would have no expectation of wages or benefits that native workers would expect

      From my stand-point (my father had the same employer for 40+ years, I have had one employer that I was at for more than a decade, with most lasting less than five years) there are trade-offs between seeking long term employees vs 'contract' work. Long-term employees can benefit a company by providing deep knowledge of the organization and may benefit projects by understanding how thet fit in to the ethos of the culture. They can also be horrible lard-asses who want to ride on the coat-tails of the few employees who want to trailblaze and develop new markets.

      Similarly, contract labor, outsourcing companies, etc can provide incredible new opportunities to existing companies and drive them into new markets. They can also become a persistent crutch that cost tons of money and take all of their knowledge with them when they leave, letting the companies wither and die like hollowed husks who have no capability to stand on their own.

      In truth, black and white gets us no-where and in order to be successful companies will need to leverage whip-smart contract labor, while building capable internal teams to support their efforts after they have been sent off to their next world-building exercise. Maybe the 'stability' from 1950 to 1980 was the real 'aberration' and the constant changes driven by an influx of new workers is the real American norm

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    3. Re: New norm?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wrong. The effects you described are not and should not be taken as normal. Why? Because we the people want an economy that serves us, NOT the other way around. That's the whole point of unions, in fact--to make sure that workers get a decent share of the wealth they produce.

      What happened in the 80s and 90s was a fairly massive right wing media war on worker propaganda initiative, one sided 'free trade' deals, and of course massive corporate deregulation. Combine that with the huge rise in home equity loans people used to maintain their lifestyles in the face of falling incomes, tax cuts for the wealthy resulting in benefit cuts for all, and corporations being permitted to raid pension funds in fake bankruptcy proceedings while buying laws preventing you from discharging credit card and student loan debt and doing nothing about medical costs (the number 1 by far since of bankruptcy in the US).

      This is how you get our economy today. It was deliberate, it was to benefit the few, and it is not normal except if you define normal the way the corporate propaganda media does.

    4. Re:New norm?? by BVis · · Score: 1

      Why do they hate America? Severance? What are they, socialists?

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    5. Re: New norm?? by operagost · · Score: 1

      blahdeblahRIGHT WINGblahdeblahTAX CUTS FOR THE WEALTHYblahdeblahSTUDENT LOANS

      The laws favoring and propping up labor unions still exist! So you have to ask yourself: why aren't they serving us?

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    6. Re:New norm?? by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      I arrived at America in the 1970's, and immediately plunged into the job market (Chinatown) because I practically had no money with me

      After schooling and so on (paid for with the slave wages I got from working in Chinatown and other places) I 'upgraded' my career into research institutions

      I think you would have a hard time doing that today. Slave wages have not kept up with inflation. While there has never been a 'job security' clause in the agreement, there used to be a more reciprocal relationship between employer and employee. I don't think employees are as valued today as they were 40 years ago. It's much more one-sided as the article says. Aided by technology, more is expected of today's workers, while employers seem to think they are doing them a favor just by offering them a job.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    7. Re:New norm?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      does this guy ever say anything worth while?

    8. Re: New norm?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hey look its operaghost saying something stupid again.
      someday he may rejoin us in reality.
      but today is not that day.

    9. Re:New norm?? by Ryanrule · · Score: 1

      THE 70's THE 70's THE 70's THE 70's

    10. Re: New norm?? by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      Because labor has less bargaining power than in the past?

    11. Re:New norm?? by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      For a large portion of the population, for the years from say 1950 until the late 1980's it was totally normal to get a job out of high school, to join a union associate with that job and to work that job until retirement, with a decent pension. This was not unusual for white collar (professional, non-union) positions either.

      In 1950, Europe and Asia was in shambles and we were entering the Cold War. Of course, people had job security. Now, the US is facing a global competitive environment. We are also living in a world that is much more prosperous and peaceful, and we are benefiting enormously from that.

      Long-term employees can benefit a company by providing deep knowledge of the organization and may benefit projects by understanding how thet fit in to the ethos of the culture.

      Yes, and companies will do everything they can to retain such employees.

      Maybe the 'stability' from 1950 to 1980 was the real 'aberration'

      Correct.

      and the constant changes driven by an influx of new workers is the real American norm

      The constant changes are mostly driven by rapid technological innovation, which causes job descriptions and demand to change rapidly. But new jobs open up as fast as old ones disappear.

    12. Re: New norm?? by Amigo+Van+Helical · · Score: 1

      Well, if you go by the numbers, unions have certainly lost clout since around 1980, so I think the answer to your question is "yes." Here is the URL for the Bureau of Labor Statistics: http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsluta...

    13. Re: New norm?? by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Because we the people want an economy that serves us, NOT the other way around. That's the whole point of unions, in fact--to make sure that workers get a decent share of the wealth they produce.

      There is nothing wrong in principle with private labor unions and voluntary union membership. During the early industrial era, when a large part of the workforce was unskilled factory work, they made sense.

      But the idea that unions stand up for "we the people" and an economy that serves all Americans is ludicrous. Unions only ever represent their own members, and their job is to get the best deal they can for their members, regardless of the cost that imposes on society. Unions are special interest lobbying organizations, no different from individual big corporations.

    14. Re: New norm?? by LinuxLuver · · Score: 1

      Research papers look at more than your own, narrow, anecdotal experience.

      --
      Only boring people are ever bored.
    15. Re:New norm?? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      For a large portion of the population, for the years from say 1950 until the late 1980's it was totally normal to get a job out of high school, to join a union associate with that job and to work that job until retirement, with a decent pension. This was not unusual for white collar (professional, non-union) positions either.

      No.

      You could have had such a job in the 80s, but only if you started working there in the 60s or 70s. Most people who got such a new job by the late 80s were already pretty much guaranteed no retirement, despite any agreement they may have had.

      What this "sociologist" found is nothing new... it has been going on for many decades now. However, we are just now starting to seriously experience the pain of it.

      Companies bemoan lack of "company loyalty" but they haven't been willing to treat employees like part of the company "family". The whole "company loyalty" thing won't change until companies start showing some "employee loyalty" again. They are the ones who dropped the ball, and it is definitely on their shoulders to pick it up again. Because nobody is going to say "Yes, Massa, I will work and slave for you for 2 decades with no promise of a long-term reward and the threat of being sent out the door at any time."

      It just doesn't work that way. Companies will get loyalty when they deserve loyalty, not before.

    16. Re:New norm?? by nbauman · · Score: 1

      Well I arrived at America in the 1940s (when I was born), and you don't know how good this country used to be.

      Up to the 1960s, some of the best colleges (like CCNY) were basically free. So college students didn't have to work for slave wages in Chinatown. In the developed European countries (except the UK) college is still free, so it's not impossible for a modern economy to supply free education.

      My father grew up in the "old norm." He worked loyally for his company during WWII, risked his life going up testing experimental aircraft systems, came in to work every day, and worked as much overtime as it took to get the job done. He was never drunk on the job, and never lied to cover up mistakes. After he was in his 50s, he couldn't keep up with the latest technology, but he had a good union so his employer found him another job in the company where he could be useful until he retired. And he was paid very well -- enough to help me and my sister through college.

      That was standard in the American work force from after WWII up to the 1970s. All the major corporations -- Eastman Kodak, IBM, The New York Times -- had a policy of employment for life. Some companies, like the auto manufacturers, had cyclical layoffs, but with the unions they set it up with unemployment insurance and so forth to cushion the shock.

      Companies in Germany and the other developed countries in Europe are continuing to do that, so it's not impossible.

      I think you should go back to college and study some sociology. (I once did a paper on Henry Ford and the asssembly line.) It sounds like you don't understand social science research.

      I think you're making 2 mistakes.

      (1) The Andrew Carnegie story you're describing is unusual.

      Almost everybody who succeeds in America succeeds with some kind of social support. You came to this country with enough education to be able to go to college.

      You had significant advantages over most black people, for example. In much of the South, they weren't even allowed to vote until the 1970s, and their school systems were worse than any socialist country.

      (2) You may be doing well now, but the American economy has an enormous amount of insecurity.
      As TFA says, the wheel of fortune turns. Most Americans have a peak income in heir career, and never earn as much again.

      That's particularly true in the engineering and technical professions. In the 1970s, there were many age-discrimination lawsuits by older programmers in their 50s who were trained in COBOL, FORTRAN, etc. who were not given a chance to retrain themselves but fired and replaced by younger, cheaper workers. Aircraft engineers, who were in great demand during the 1960s, wound up selling real estate in the 1970s.

      You may have made enough money in your business to live in comfort for the rest of your life. If so, enjoy America.

      If not, you may wind up in 10 years in the cutthroat capitalism job market again, back in Chinatown waiting on tables.

      What good is a high income without job security? I know people who worked their way up to $60,000 after 20 years of loyal service, got fired at age 50 and never worked again. What does that average out to, $35,000 a year?

      If you want "real science," go read Paul Krugman in the New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/column/... He's an economist, but he went to MIT so he knows what science is, and he gives you all the data you want. (You may not care, but I'm saying this for the benefit of anyone who is reading this.)

      Job insecurity is not normal for the US, it's not good and its not necessary.

      As Bernie Sanders says, the European social democracies are a good model.

  37. Yea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is more important to tax these companies more then to make an environment where they can keep employees longer. --Democrats

  38. You are so wrong ("cash balance" conversion) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    While I understand your point, in the US at least ERISA laws do protect pensions to a reasonable extent. If you have one already, you generally get to keep it, although it might get frozen. But if you don't have a defined benefit plan, you're not going to get one.

    That's as full of bullshit as "if you like your insurance, you can keep it." OP was specifically referring to the major employee-screwing that is converting defined-benefit pensions into a "cash balance" (aka 401k equivalent). Led by IBM http://www.forbes.com/2003/04/16/cz_jn_0416beltway.html, as of 2003 24% of S&P500 firms had stolen pension plans from employees who had already earned one.

  39. remove / untie Health Care from jobs by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    Out side of the usa your job is not tied to your Health Care and they don't have to pay for it.

  40. Tenure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So a professor with academic tenure finally figured out what everyone else knew for over 100 years? Who woulda thunkit. Wecome to the real world professor.

  41. That's nice too by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    Our parents didn't have to settle for crappy little houses. Why do we have it worse than our parents did? Why are things getting worse, not better?

    --
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    1. Re:That's nice too by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      Seriously? Have you seen homes from the 80s and older? They are crappy and small. New homes are relatively palacial.

    2. Re:That's nice too by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      Every home I ever visited within my extended family was under 2000sf, and many of them were under 1300sf, until my parents bought a 2100sf home in the late 1990s. That was the biggest in the family until I bought my 3800sf house.

      Go look at older neighborhoods, particularly those built before 1980. They're far smaller than we see today. Home sizes overall are growing, with the average in 2014 being 2600 square feet, larger than the 2400sf that was the average during the housing boom.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
  42. Oh please by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

    There hasn't been "job security" in America for DECADES. This isn't recent phenomenon, you dimwits.

    --
    Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
  43. Soviet Russia wasn't socialist by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    it was a fascist dictatorship. It didn't even look a little like socialism, let alone communism. It was just a bunch of thugs looting and pillaging. I'm sorry you got caught up in all that, but you've never lived in a socialist society, any more than I (as an American) have lived in a Representational Democracy.

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  44. UBER is not even close to that by rsilvergun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Uber only works when there are lots of drivers who used to have good jobs or who had family that had good jobs. That's because the $15/hr that Uber drivers max out at (if you account for gas & maintenance) isn't enough to buy a new car when the old one starts falling about at 200k miles. Maybe in a country w/o safety regulations, professional drivers insurance and emission standards Uber could work. But again, it all falls apart as soon as Uber stops externalizing it's costs onto either the driver, their family or society at large.

    Uber isn't a solution. It's a symptom of a very diseased and dysfunctional system that'll eventually collapse in on itself.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  45. Then a change of incentives is in order. by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    First, kill off the idea that agency/temporary/PT/third-party work can be a condition for accepting work with any particular entity. Take the toys away that businesses misuse for the primary (if not sole) purpose of dodging benefits laws. They'll have to play by the same rules as the rest of the workforce.

    That is, someone could ask for FTE, get it, and not have to settle for dealing with a benefit-dodging third party. That would make secure arrangements the default, and require less secure arrangements to provide a compelling advantage above and beyond the job itself.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  46. Contractors/Agency labor == 21st Century Union. by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    The only kind of unions that are going to form are ones that the employer controls or is the primary benefactor - which are staffing firms, contractors, consulting groups, and other third-party types that see the worker as a butcher would see animals in an abattoir.

    Try that in any other arrangement, especially in the South, and one does so at their career's own peril.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  47. You never saw a good company. by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    Your naturalized citizenship betrays you in that respect. It also provides you with an easy "Diversity Candidate" card depending on the company, which seems to have favored you more than merit.

    While it was harder to find, it was possible to easily see it well into the 1990's. Seeing it past the dotcom crash was quite hard. Seeing it past 2008 was a PITA. Seeing it past 2013 for non-diverse individuals (both you and myself) is asking for the nigh-impossible.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  48. Then make the "aberration" return. by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    In truth, black and white gets us no-where and in order to be successful companies will need to leverage whip-smart contract labor,

    Given permatemping, there's just the whip and no real smarts beyond devising something that no person should be able to meet to get a regular job.

    Precarious work needs to DIAF.

    while building capable internal teams to support their efforts after they have been sent off to their next world-building exercise.

    In other words, people that managed to be the token few that weren't permatemped.

    Maybe the 'stability' from 1950 to 1980 was the real 'aberration' and the constant changes driven by an influx of new workers is the real American norm

    Then do whatever it takes litigatively/legislatively/extrajudicially to bring back stability and make it a epic, royal, and complete PITA to dodge it. After that, make it hard to not hire citizens by making it worth more to hire any citizen FTE's by default.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
    1. Re:Then make the "aberration" return. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      It varies a bit depending on the relative scarcity of your skills and jobs. For someone with skills in shortage, job security isn't that great a thing, as moving jobs will typically involve a pay rise. For someone with fewer options, it's much more important because there's going to be a gap between jobs and they're not in a position to negotiate a better package. Unions were supposed to redress some of this imbalance: an individual employee may be easily replaceable for a lot of companies, but the entire workforce (or even a third of the workforce) probably isn't.

      Unfortunately, unions in the USA managed to becomes completely self-interested and corrupt institutions. This is partly due to lack of competition: in most of the rest of the world you have a choice of at least a couple of unions to join, so if your union isn't representing your interests you can switch to another one. Partly due to the ties between unions and organised crime in the USA coming out of the prohibition era. Partly due to the demonisation of anything vaguely socialist during the Cold War, which reduced employee involvement in unions (and if most people aren't involved in the union, then the few that are have disproportionate influence).

      Even this has been somewhat eroded by automation. If you're replacing 1,000 employees with robots and 100 workers, then a union's threat to have 600 people go on strike doesn't mean much and even when it does it's very hard to persuade those 600 that striking won't mean that they're moved to the top of the to-be-redundant list.

      But, back to my original point: lack of jobs for life isn't the real problem. A large imbalance in negotiating power between companies and employees is. When employees are in a stronger negotiating position, companies will favour keeping existing employees because it's cheaper than hiring new ones.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    2. Re: Then make the "aberration" return. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Legislatively-wise, there's nothing you can do. Globalization is a done deal. Free movement of workers and the consequent drop-down of wages is irreversible, unless some worldwide cataclysm turns everything upside-down. So, suck it up and learn to live and function in this world, not in some fantasy land that will not come true.

    3. Re:Then make the "aberration" return. by tburkhol · · Score: 1

      Then do whatever it takes litigatively/legislatively/extrajudicially to bring back stability and make it a epic, royal, and complete PITA to dodge it. After that, make it hard to not hire citizens by making it worth more to hire any citizen FTE's by default.

      This doesn't work. It artificially inflates the price of labor, and we've seen what happens when local labor is expensive. Never mind that creating a two (three) tiered society of Citizens and (il)legal Immigrants is the Kuwaiti system. You don't get to vote yourself into the aristocracy.

      Besides, you can argue that "stability" is bad for both employer and employee. Without ties to a particular job, it's much easier for an employee to shop his skills around and find a better job. Assuming the employers are not illegally colluding to fix wages. He has to hustle a bit more than showing up to a 9-to-5 bolt-tightening job, but I thought we liked for people to be actively engaged in their own well-being. I thought the American way was to reward ambitious self-motivated people and let starve the ones too lazy to care for themselves.

    4. Re:Then make the "aberration" return. by BVis · · Score: 2

      For someone with skills in shortage, job security isn't that great a thing, as moving jobs is the only way you'll ever get a pay rise.

      FTFY.

      Whenever I talk about a 2.5% raise being insulting and not a real raise at all, barely keeping up with COL, people look at me like I have three heads. We've been conditioned to never expect a raise of any substance, no matter the company. Bad raises and poor job security, you would think, would lead to more attrition, with all those employees taking their institutional knowledge with them. It's hard getting management to care about that, since the employee only MIGHT leave, whereas their salaries are lower NOW. My company is well aware that the compensation structure here is the #1 issue that their employees have with how they're treated. They have made it very clear that they are not willing to do anything about it.

      I work in the USA for a company based in France, where workers actually have some protection from being fired on a whim. As a result, there is a process here that must be followed before someone can be let go. The worker is given a chance to improve their performance, instead of just kicked to the curb with the rest of the garbage. It works. Institutional knowledge is retained, employees enjoy better job security, fewer new employees have to be recruited/hired.

      But, if you ever suggest that that be the norm here, management flips their shit and screams something about "agility" and "flexibility", while in the same breath issuing rules/policies that stifle an employee and are the opposite of flexible.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    5. Re:Then make the "aberration" return. by BVis · · Score: 1

      I thought the American way was to reward ambitious self-motivated people

      That hasn't been true since the 70s. The new American Dream is to make a kajillion dollars off the sweat of someone else's brow.

      and let starve the ones too lazy to care for themselves.

      Social Darwinism. That's fine until you realize that it starves children to death, children who have no control over whether their parents can care for themselves or not.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    6. Re:Then make the "aberration" return. by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Look at the process to hire someone in France and tell me there isn't a cost to the firing process.

      In Germany, if you quit your job on other than a quarter year boundary you are obligated to pay them for your absence.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    7. Re:Then make the "aberration" return. by BVis · · Score: 1

      Uh, the fact that there's a cost to the firing process is the point I was trying to make. You can't just fire someone, you need to prove that it's justified.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    8. Re:Then make the "aberration" return. by babybird · · Score: 1

      Those both sound like exactly the same thing-- eliminating a job or leaving a job having a cost associated with doing so. If one side wants to sever the relationship, then that side incurs a cost of some kind. This incentivizes the separation as only happening when that separation has merit to it rather than just happening on a simple whim, or because some marginal opportunity came along.

      If there were no barrier to entry for an investment like the potential loss of your investment, everyone would always invest in any ridiculous thing. But there is, so they don't-- and yet this doesn't prevent investment entirely, it only limits it to those investments which are likely to pay a return greater than the cost of the initial investment. Having a cost incurred as part of unemploying someone offsets the cost of hiring that person to begin with, netting higher quality employees and higher quality employers as a result, just like it does for investment. In the end, an employment relationship is nothing more than a two-way investment, so that shouldn't be surprising.

      That being said, it makes sense that there should be a higher barrier to severing an employment relationship for a company-- particularly a large company-- because they automatically have more power in the relationship compared to the employee. The employee's survival is typically intrinsically tied to their employment, while a company-- particularly a larger company-- will generally be able to get along just fine without that employee. The costs should balance out that equation, ensuring some measure of equity between both parties, otherwise the result will tend toward abuse, which it often does.

      --
      Keith D.
    9. Re:Then make the "aberration" return. by sethstorm · · Score: 1

      This doesn't work. It artificially inflates the price of labor, and we've seen what happens when local labor is expensive. Never mind that creating a two (three) tiered society of Citizens and (il)legal Immigrants is the Kuwaiti system. You don't get to vote yourself into the aristocracy.

      Make it even more expensive to not use in-country labor, including the vigorous prosecution of individuals contracting or employing illegals as well as individual aiding or abetting them.

      Besides, you can argue that "stability" is bad for both employer and employee. Without ties to a particular job, it's much easier for an employee to shop his skills around and find a better job

      Really? For the greater part of humanity, including those of us in the modern Roman Empire (the United States), stability is a good thing. It allows long-term planning, a chance to gain the skills that impart flexibility in any economy, and otherwise provide for a mutual benefit.

      I thought the American way was to reward ambitious self-motivated people and let starve the ones too lazy to care for themselves.

      Wrong century. That might have been true for history up to the mid-20th, but it is not true today (despite attempts to return to the darker days).

      --
      Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  49. Big time derp by the Professor. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    JPMorgan added something like 30,000 jobs after 2008 specifically to handle excess defaulted mortgages. Now that the world is back to normal and defaults are at a reasonable rate, eliminating jobs that were temporary to begin with is an alarming cultural shift?

    http://www.seattletimes.com/business/jpmorgan-to-scale-back-troubled-mortgage-jobs/

  50. Small Businesses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Welcome to the world of being a small business owner, workforce! What it means is that if you want to run your architectural office for 35 years through booms and busts, you might have to take in and feed your family with a nurse's salary, which is less than that of a college engineer's due to salary bias. Sometimes you go out to collect the free-roaming nettle to make a delicious soups and sauces with second grade potatoes.

  51. tech industry 15 years ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Over 15 years ago, when I moved from the Midwest to California to start my new career in Silicon Valley, I noticed a pretty dramatic difference from how employers would treat their employees.

    Before I got into tech, go back even further for me, 20 years. I had a good old factory job making steel for Detroit. My mentors were guys who have been there for 30 years and had stable jobs. They had free time and money to own RVs or boats and take their family on vacation every year. People who had a job, gave it respect, showed up every day, and did what they were hired to do. A job was stability for your family, and part of your identity, once you had a good job you were expected to keep it until you retire. The people who did well at work tended to like their jobs, the people who hated their jobs tended to not stick around. But overall, the employers treated people right. Of course, this is only after many years of labor unions teaching employers what is required of them. I have no illusion that big wig executives would have gotten to this point on their own without the hard work of unions and the looming fear of strikes. But labor and management had a gentleman's arrangement and it worked pretty well in most industries up into the 90s. Each side got most of what they wanted, and we were able to cooperate and live our respective lives.

    Now after leaving the steel mill, I went to the Golden State, to start my real passion: Programming. This was when the job market was still booming, and a young man with no college education but impeccable personal referrals could get his foot in the door and kick off an engineering career. But along the way, I was lured in with the idea that my unvested shares would make me rich, so I worked hard. And as soon as new management moved in, either because the company was succeeding or because it was failing, I would be let go to make way for the new direction (before people started calling it "pivot"). On termination, my shares would evaporate, and I would get my banked PTO(Paid Time Off) and not a penny more, no severance for me. It was up to me to find a new job living off about 4 weeks of vacation pay. Wash, rinse, repeat.

    The result, I am afraid of companies succeeding, I update my resume every time we launch a new product. I take the absolute minimum of vacation time to visit aging relatives, because I need that PTO when they eventually let me go.

    I am essentially on call at all hours during the week and weekends. I once was taking time with my girlfriend in Santa Cruz to see the sites on a Saturday, I get a call from my boss. There was some problem with a project I was not a part of, but he promised his boss that he would send me in to fix it. Without warning, and without asking me first. I told him "No, I've worked the last two weekends and I'm out of town.", and he used words like "disappointed" and "unacceptable". I actually felt really bad, like I've let them all down. When I returned on Monday, I had a meeting invite on my calendar, with him and a representative from HR. I was being put on 30-day PIP (Performance Improvement Plan). And was given a list of tasks I must complete by then. Little did I know that PIP is a code word for "we're going to fire you, update your resume". I worked my ass off and completed everything, and was informed that my employment was "at will" and they chose to terminate me anyways.

    I still work in the Valley as a Software Engineer, I make a good wage at it too. But there is no "me" time, even when I come home every evening, I still take my work home. Because I'm always afraid of losing my job. And because I'm unofficially on call. It wasn't just one bad place, it's a culture that permeates the Valley. And my greatest fear is that this toxic and abusive policy will escape the Valley and be applied to people who are not working professionals or tech workers. When this kind of nasty business starts to be applied to cashiers, factory workers, and just about everyone, then we're all in trouble. And we can go back to the 80s to give

    1. Re:tech industry 15 years ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      cool story bro.

    2. Re:tech industry 15 years ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fuck you

  52. Not a one-way system by bradley13 · · Score: 1

    Why does the author think it's a one way system? First, let's get this out of the way:

    "the golden era when Americans could get a job, keep it, and expect to retire with an adequate pension are over"

    That age ended in the 1960s, or maybe even in the 1950s.

    "workers are beholden to employers"

    Actually, it goes both ways. In the US, afaik two weeks notice is pretty typical, if you get fired. That surely does lead to insecurity. But it goes both ways: you can also leave your job on two weeks notice. With a bit of accumulated vacation, you could effectively be leaving from one day to the next. If you're an important employee, holding critical responsibilities, that leaves your employer in a really shitty position.

    Any company in the US could adopt a different model. Just as an example, in much of Europe, you have to be given three months' notice that your employment will be ending. Would that be better? Do note that this goes both ways: if you are unhappy with your job, you cannot just leave. You must also give three months notice, continuing to do you job, and giving your employer a chance to bring in your replacement and arrange for a smooth transition.

    Both models have their advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I prefer the European model - it gives more stability. But it does reduce flexibility and mobility, both for companies and employees.

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
    1. Re:Not a one-way system by sabbede · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think that "golden era" ran from the late 1940's to the '70's. From the end of WWII, until the rest of the developed world rebuilt their industrial bases, infrastructures and populations. That generation where we had no industrial competition.

    2. Re:Not a one-way system by dywolf · · Score: 1

      actually these days typical is the company tells you at the last minute of the last day of the pay period, and escort you to the door.
      Lucky to get 5 minutes notice.

      look at it this way: unless you're a CEO or executive, when you're gone the company is maybe 5% less productive, or less.
      but when a company bails on an employee, that employee is 100% less productive.

      that's why the balance of power so overwhelmingly favors the company.

      and yes, a 3 months notice would surely be better.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    3. Re:Not a one-way system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That age ended in the 1960s, or maybe even in the 1950s.

      early 1980s, Reagan ended that. The disruptions in the late 1960s into the 1970s were primarily economic and not a policy change.

    4. Re:Not a one-way system by shallot · · Score: 1

      Not sure which part of Europe this refers to, but in my experience the European labor laws are geared primarily towards worker protection - companies engaging in layoffs are required to give workers advance notice in the time roughly proportional to their tenure at the company, but a worker who found a new job is not actually bound by the same rules and is instead allowed to just quit. Generally, workers care for their reputation so they then negotiate a reasonable transitional period with their former employer.

      There is a bit of an intricate detail depending on the specific laws - sometimes the employer also has a bargaining chip by way of accrued vacation time - for example if it's July 1st and you haven't yet spent 50% of your yearly vacation time, the employer is allowed to send you off to vacation so they wouldn't have to pay it out in cash when you leave. This time can then be spent answering phone calls from coworkers scrambling to take over your duties, or you just cede another week of notice and then actually go spend that vacation time as vacation (or perhaps prepare for your new job).

  53. Women at work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am no historian, so lacking perhaps hitorical details, I've always wondered if having women at work, was more about increasing the workforce than thinking that women deserve welfare.

    I am now wondering if say neocon's want women back in the kitchen.

    Presumably every economist would tell me that minimizing the workforce this way would be terrible in all kinds of ways.

  54. No kids. Family sizes blah-blah... by denzacar · · Score: 1

    Your parents weren't forced to trade in their genes and their kids for food and basic comforts.
    You just got more comforts available. That's all those 4 continents boil down to.

    You think you made a choice.
    Instead you got pushed to invest into worthless toys (some of which you don't even "own") which will all be raked up and dumped into a landfill once you die.
    Cause you bought the lie. Congratulations.

    Might wanna plant a tree. It's not your genes but at least it feels like doing something.

    BTW, are you living in a war-torn country with a history of genocide?
    Cause I do. And what you are describing looks a LOT like the lives of much of my generation.
    Only with less travel. We're poor. Luxuries and comforts reflect that.

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
  55. Your basic understandings are wrong. by denzacar · · Score: 1

    You are setting up a one dimensional scale from zero to totalitarian.
    It is actually a multi-dimensional graph.

    You are basically looking at a scaleless shadow of a 3D object and calling it a line.

    THEN, you set an arbitrarily determined (i.e. made up, guessed, fake, wrong) middle of your scaleless shadow, and jam a shadow of a completely different 3D system inside.
    I.e. An ECONOMIC one. You know... like bartering. Or communism.

    It is akin to setting up a scale to describe movement, putting lying down on one end and flying through space at the speed of light on the other, and then deciding that the middle between those two options is a carrot.
    Why a carrot? Well, because orange.

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    1. Re:Your basic understandings are wrong. by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      I don't exclude the existence of other systems, there's any number of variables you could include to create an n-dimensional system of economic and political systems. A far more accurate one is, indeed, two dimensional, and splits out economic liberty from civil liberty. You could add even more dimensions, depending on how accurately you want to describe an arbritrary system.

      That's not really necessary here, and capitalism can exist in a large number of these systems, there's no One True 'Right' way to do it.

      Some societies will define that ordering food means you have to pay for it before you walk out. Some won't. Both can be capitalism.

      Some societies will run justice systems differently, some might be Common Law, others Civil Law. It doesn't really matter, Capitalism is just one building block that means one thing, and gives you certain useful characteristics when applied.

  56. American dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The male's dream is to marry a girl child (or 2..).

  57. The imbalance of two income families by clay_buster · · Score: 2

    The rise of two income families changed expense / income dynamics. High income earning units can drive up housing costs and increase the costs of other services. It can also change the vacation and time off dynamic of families with the need to sync work schedules, school schedules and paid time off.

    Singles can't live on their own in many places because they are competing with pooled earning couples. Blue collar working families are now at double the disadvantage when looking for housing, child care or other social and physical services.

    No we should not return to the past. Yes, we should realize that single parents and single income families have a long term disadvantage. Societies movement away from long term unions around children creates significant financial disadvantages for large portions of the US population.

  58. No, that's Minnesota. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They actually are full of Somalis.

  59. So the Camaro is going to become an I4 aberration? by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    Another Eurotrash frame with an underpowered engine?

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  60. Re:So the Camaro is going to become an I4 aberrati by WoodburyMan · · Score: 1

    Underpowered engine? C7 Corvettte / 6th Gen Camaro's base V8 LT1's 455hp, 455lb-ft of torque from a Naturally Aspired engine is not underpowered. And the 5th Gen Camaro Z/28 and ZL1 performance trims beat out cars 5x+ its price on Nürburgring, let alone the C7 and C7 Z06 with the same engines.

  61. one-way loyalty by v1 · · Score: 5, Informative

    A couple jobs ago I was chatting with another employee, we were discussing some "ominous signs" such as HR shredding documents like she was preparing for a parade. The topic of "giving notice" came up. The other guy said that if he found a good job somewhere else he'd walk with zero notice.

    The manager overheard this and stepped in on the conversation, trying to berate us with "that's not how it's done in business, I expect you to give me at least two weeks' notice if you're going to quit!" I turned to him and said "so, how much notice will you give ME if you're going to lay me off or fire me?" (huff) (huff) (snort) is about all I got back, he couldn't even form words let alone a coherant sentence to respond to that. So I added, "I'll give you as much notice as I believe you'll give me." So rather than answer me, he just stomped away.

    I don't think they consider just how much more inconvenient being unemployed is, compared to having to hire someone to replace a single employee that departs unexpectedly. For the boss, it's inconvenient. For the employee, suddenly losing their income, possibly the only income for an entire family, can be devastating. And yet they expect to be provided with notice, while providing none themselves. Sselfish, arrogant, and inconsiderate!

    So everyone with a clue began job hunting. I had found new work, it wasn't nearly what I had now, but the writing was on the wall in pretty bold print at this point, so I accepted it. I showed up on a Thursday evening to start my (3rd) shift, and the gal from HR was in the parking lot with her hatch open, handing out unemployment packets. The entire center had been closed, everyone there got laid off that day, no one even was offered a transfer. I found out later that our manager had known this was going to happen for months.

    My new job started on Monday. (total time unemployed - two days) Unfortunately, that's how they play the game, so that's how I have to play it too. If they don't like that, they have no one to blame but themselves, I'm just playing by their rules.

    --
    I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    1. Re:one-way loyalty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed.
          I know why they give us little notice though: it's to keep disgruntled employees from trashing, stealing, or undermining the business. Funny enough the opposite can be created when one is given enough warning. Example: Once many in my department were given 30 days notice. And guess what? They finished their deadlines, tied up lose ends, found a job over time, and left having given & received respect. On the other hand, that restaurant I worked for once... called us in to say the place was being sold & we all lost our jobs now. Well, yeah people stole everything they could lay their hands on! Respect begets respect.

  62. What's the point here? by sabbede · · Score: 2
    Some huge corporations are shrinking? Is somebody suggesting they want to? Instead of talking about how much it stinks for workers, why not talk about why its happening?

    No business wants to shrink, or find out they have to lay off thousands of employees to survive. They are every bit as interested in stability and security as their employees. But it seems nobody wants to talk about that, everyone would rather assign blame or demand radical changes to fix a symptom without asking what the cause is. Or worse, saying "we know what the cause is, it's the greed of evil [corporations/unions]!", assuming their bias is correct and going no further.

    Maybe, the "era of security" was an aberration stemming from the absence of international competition in the aftermath of WWII and the devastation wrought on the industrial base of every other developed nation? Is it actually good for workers or the economy if workers spend their entire working lives in the same job? Have we forgotten that a dynamic economy means even established businesses can be forced to shrink in order to survive? What about the high levels of economic uncertainty they have had to contend with of late?

    What if it's better this way? Maybe not having a guaranteed job-for-life is better for everyone in the long-term. Can we consider that? What if too much security causes stagnation, making it an unstable condition that necessarily leads to less security in the long term?

    Does this article do anything more than let people vent their biases? Flamebait from the start?

    1. Re:What's the point here? by shallot · · Score: 1

      [Businesses] are every bit as interested in stability and security as their employees.

      No, they generally are not. At least not in the same way. Businesses care for financial stability and security of themselves and thereby their shareholders; the general stability and security of their various stakeholders, including the employees, is of peripheral interest to them, because they primarily consider them a risk that is to be managed, as opposed to humans whose lives shouldn't be ruined. This is particularly exacerbated with huge companies employing thousands - an individual employee's stability and security is easily considered trivial for the company.

    2. Re:What's the point here? by sabbede · · Score: 1
      Economic stability and security. As in conditions that support steady and sustained growth, which for the employee represents job security. Layoffs are a desperate measure, a last-ditch survival strategy. Businesses want to grow, not shrink. And managers generally don't like firing people.

      And I don't know where you get this risk management stuff. Outside of the specific context of security, physical or IT, that just doesn't make any kind of sense. Employees are not risks to be managed, they are a vital resource. Which is why companies have Human Resources departments instead of Risk Mitigation.

      I work for one of the ten largest corporations in the world. Where it is made abundantly clear that employees are highly valued. A very successful strategy. Treating employees poorly tends not to be.

    3. Re:What's the point here? by shallot · · Score: 1

      No, layoffs don't just happen at the end of the line, it's become common for companies to engage in restructuring as soon as they see a downward trend in profits.

      The whole idea of human *resources* shows that capital mainly sees labor as another asset comparable to others. That's why the ILO has continued to promote the idea that labor is not a commodity.

      It's good to hear that there are some large companies that aren't doing this. Let's hope they keep at it.

    4. Re:What's the point here? by sabbede · · Score: 1
      Well, if that came at all as a surprise, then you must not be working from empirical data.

      And consider this - restructuring is expensive, time-consuming, and extremely uncertain. Even after it's done, there's no guarantee the company will survive. It shakes the confidence of investors, customers and the remaining employees. Restructuring due to a drop in profits is akin to cutting off an arm due to a hangnail. You do it when profits are dropping below 0, and aren't likely to recover.

      Now there are some vicious people on Wall Street who will happily swoop in and buy out a troubled company, fire everyone and sell off any assets. They're vultures, and easy to hate, but like actual vultures they fill a necessary, though distasteful role. But here's the important thing about them - they only show up when a company is about to collapse on its own. Like the bird, they aren't interested in live meat.

      Please also note that people are a resource (my high-school guidance counselor would often call himself a resource at our disposal). Employees are assets. Key assets with generally quantifiable value in terms of work product. Which is not the same as commoditization. Commodities are non-differentiable, marketable products. If you want to treat labor as a commodity, you need a large pool of virtually identical workers who will provide comparable labor regardless of the specific task. One could argue that this is exactly what temp agencies and unions do, though they may not care for it.

    5. Re:What's the point here? by shallot · · Score: 1

      I recently worked for a 1000+ employee company that decided to downsize the workforce by 10% after having two years of falling profits and finally three consecutive quarters of having profits lower than their two direct competitors. Which is to say, no, apparently you don't do it only when profits are dropping below 0.

    6. Re:What's the point here? by sabbede · · Score: 1

      Perhaps I should have qualified that a little better. In the case you describe, it sounds like they expected profits to hit zero and keep going as the competition devoured market-share. So it was still a desperate move to stay in business, fitting my point despite my poor wording.

  63. Preaching to a dead horse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "in which workers are beholden to employers"

    No one who works in America today needed a book to tell them this.

  64. Capitalism missing transparency by cowwoc2001 · · Score: 1

    For free markets to stand a chance, consumers need to be able to be able to quantify an employer's track record at purchase time.

    Without this information being easily accessible at purchase time, lower price will always win no matter what. So instead of advocating socialism (which breaks down because who wants to work when they don't have to?) lets focus on exposing the employer-record metric.

  65. That's what our ancestors fought and died for by AndyKron · · Score: 1

    That's what our ancestors fought and died for: Job insecurity.

  66. Triple digits by tepples · · Score: 1

    Every home I ever visited within my extended family was under 2000sf, and many of them were under 1300sf

    When some people say "smaller house", they're thinking triple digit sf or double digit m^2.

  67. The core of the problem by pedz · · Score: 1

    Well... aren't "we" at the core of the problem -- "we" being EE / CS folks. We create new machines that displace more and more jobs. We now have technology where corporations can out source almost every job to countries like Vietnam, Mexico, etc. "We' (the public at large) tolerate poorer and poorer quality goods. "We" (the voters) continue to elect THE most corrupt bunch of people on earth and WE continue to bicker amongst ourselves that "the other side" is at fault -- like life is some type of football game with my side and your side.

    "We" (EE/CS) also lead the path to job hopping back in the 1980s in Silicon Valley and other places greatly enticing the old large companies to stop their pension plans and opt for 401Ks which were never designed for retirement. Generally the EE/CE group turned their coats first ahead of the corporations turning their back on us.

    "We" also have created our own unreasonable expectations. Only for a very brief time in history did people retire at some golden age with enough money saved to not need to work, keep their house, and possibly even travel somewhat. "We" are also generally further in debt due to our lust for goods and the need to keep up with the latest shiny object than any of our forefathers.

    I mean seriously... I bet your car is less than 5 years old, I bet you have internet at your house as well as a cell phone with a data plan. I bet your TV, mobile phone, and computer are less than 5 years old. I bet your children also have mobile phones with data plans and texting plans. I'm sorry... but you are just not in NEED like you pretend to be. Generally (especially in America) we've grown to feel entitled while actually no one ever ever ever ever really promised us anything that we've come to expect.

    Now some of you will probably step and say "no me". But, in general, on average, WE ARE THE PROBLEM.

  68. It gets worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Companies are writing nastier Non-Compete agreements, no longer to protect their intellectual property, but to indenture employees they wish to keep and punish those they REALLY want to suffer, with hiring and discharge agreements that essentially prevent workers from changing jobs, or former workers from looking for jobs in their industry for 6months to 2years.

  69. New? by GaryHayman · · Score: 1

    Was this paper written or statement made in the 90s?

  70. Re:So the Camaro is going to become an I4 aberrati by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    The Camaro? No, even if you ask for the V6. The only problem I have is that there's no sub-$25k 4-door equivalent in GM's lineup. It's either 2 doors and a good V6, or straight to $30k+ land.

    The ATS? Definitely, since you're paying for more bling and less engine. For their existing price points, I'd rather see V6/Turbo V6/V8.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  71. Solution is simple by NewYork · · Score: 1

    Tax Corporate Revenues, Not Profits;
    http://news.yahoo.com/warren-b...

  72. That's a case of only addressing one end of it. by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    Make it hard to not hire someone legally present in that country and very painful to hire anyone with any less-than-legal status..

    Even better yet, remove any ability to require a person to associate with any third party or on any non-FTE basis as a condition of working with any entity. Granted, that does include unions, but it also hits the benefit-dodging contract firms - hard. It also discourages the benefit-dodging forms of casualization of labor, as non-FTE labor would have to outcompete FTE labor.

    That, and it makes quitting that much easier when even the least competent have a chance to find good work and improve.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  73. Re:The Bible and the Economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Christians have no problem with voluntary socialism as described in Acts 2:44, 45. The communal sharing of early believers possessions was completely voluntary and existed inside of the larger capitalistic society. The problem comes when you try to have your entire society be socialistic. For one, sinful nature is inherently selfish and people want to do the minimum work for the maximum reward. Without the transformative nature of hard core Christianity, the only way to motivate people to work for the good of others is at the point of a gun, or for cold hard cash. The much gentler path is capitalism. All you who are complaining about the exploitation of works, go look at the communist countries, they exploited everyone, and also murdered hundreds of millions via execution, starvation, and mistreatment and then collapsed (USSR) or became capitalistic (China).

  74. It should not be a game by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Nope, I'm not playing your game

    You are clearly playing a different and rather pathetic one where the actual topic does not matter but some kind of pointless childish yapping to get people angry does. An epic failure in a normal discussion is probably a triple word score in the pathetic little game you are playing while others are attempting to seriously discuss and issue.
    Being a psychopath is normal? WTF? Clearly you are either playing with us or trying to justify something in your own life that I doubt matters to anyone other than yourself.
    I've run across a couple of psychopaths - normal is something they really have to work hard at and is not a word that fits them.

    1. Re:It should not be a game by khallow · · Score: 1

      Being a psychopath is normal?

      Who said anything about real psychopaths? It's just a meaningless label you guys have been throwing around.

    2. Re:It should not be a game by dbIII · · Score: 1

      So Stalin referred to above was not a real psychopath?
      Epic fail.

    3. Re:It should not be a game by khallow · · Score: 1

      So Stalin referred to above was not a real psychopath?

      I don't know if he was a psychopath or just a normal human responding to a very sick environment.

    4. Re:It should not be a game by dbIII · · Score: 1

      If you are that ignorant of history then you shouldn't have refuted the poster above on the basis of a laughably wild guess.

    5. Re:It should not be a game by khallow · · Score: 1

      If you are that ignorant of history

      You are too, let us not forget. Personally, I think this whole thread is typical of delusional ideologies of the past couple of centuries. "Our system will work once we get rid of the bad people." Sorry, but I'm only interested in systems that work even when you can't do that.

    6. Re:It should not be a game by dbIII · · Score: 1

      You are too

      Not as such. Sorry but you spectacularly dropped the ball on this one and rate well below normal general knowledge on this matter, which makes this entire thread rather pathetic don't you think? What's with trying to start a battle of wits while totally unarmed?

    7. Re:It should not be a game by dbIII · · Score: 1

      "Our system will work once we get rid of the bad people." Sorry, but I'm only interested in systems that work even when you can't do that.

      No such thing. All you can do is stop them getting into places where they can game the system and ignore those rules designed to stop "the bad people". You should have noticed by now that "the bad people" are not big on following rules.

    8. Re:It should not be a game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think studies have shown that a lot of "normal" people also tend to not follow the rules, when they think they can get away with it.

    9. Re:It should not be a game by khallow · · Score: 1

      All you can do is stop them getting into places where they can game the system and ignore those rules designed to stop "the bad people".

      I see no evidence that you can do that. Even if we ignore that breaking rules is normal human behavior (and routinely expressed by anyone who can get away with it!), we still have thousands of years of history to demonstrate that rule breakers always find their way into positions from which they can game the system.