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Germany Says Taking Photos Of Food Infringes The Chef's Copyright

xPertCodert writes: According to this article in Der Welt (Google translate from German), in Germany if you take a picture of a dish in a restaurant without prior permission, you are violating chef's copyright for his creation and can be liable to pay a hefty fine. If this approach to foodporn will become universal, what will we put in our Instagrams? Techdirt reports: "Apparently, this situation goes back to a German court judgment from 2013, which widened copyright law to include the applied arts too. As a result, the threshold for copyrightability was lowered considerably, with the practical consequence that it was easier for chefs to sue those who posted photographs of their creations without permission. The Die Welt article notes that this ban can apply even to manifestly unartistic piles of food dumped unceremoniously on a plate if a restaurant owner puts up a notice refusing permission for photos to be taken of its food."

280 comments

  1. subjects in comments are stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Why would they sue in the first place? and miss out on free publicity

    1. Re:subjects in comments are stupid by Chrisq · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why would they sue in the first place? and miss out on free publicity

      It's probably the pictures of their less attractive dishes they are worried about. The "look, this chicken was served to me at XXXX and it's still raw inside" posts you see on facebook.

    2. Re: subjects in comments are stupid by thesupraman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So just move the food around a bit.. It is now your own creative work.. And take your photo.
      The chicken is cut open? That was you.. Not the chef.

      Send like a non story.. Could only be applied for a picture of an untouched plate..

    3. Re: subjects in comments are stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sounds like a derivative work to me.

    4. Re:subjects in comments are stupid by lesincompetent · · Score: 1

      Thank you for adhering to my trademark subject line campaign!

    5. Re: subjects in comments are stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like a cast-iron fair use case to me. After all, isn't fair use's actual purpose to allow quoting in criticism?

    6. Re:subjects in comments are stupid by gnupun · · Score: 1

      What if a competing chef sees the photo and duplicates the dish? Don't you think the chef should have protection for his IP?

    7. Re:subjects in comments are stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. The arrangement of food on a plate is not "intellectual property". You could argue the recipe for a sauce is "intellectual property", but this is not something that will be exposed merely by taking (or looking at) a picture. Besides, if a good chef wants to get the recipe, most of them need only taste the creation. My wife only cooks as a home cook and even she can break down what's in something by tasting it. This whole thing about copyrights and intellectual property is such bullshit. Stupid judges, politicians, and dumb motherfuckers who they're a "brand". Fuck all of them.

    8. Re: subjects in comments are stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The subject lines make it much easier to follow a thread after interstitial up and down mods. Especially on mobile.

    9. Re: subjects in comments are stupid by Desler · · Score: 1

      Does Germany have a codified fair use? You do realize that Fair Use is not a universal concept, right?

    10. Re:subjects in comments are stupid by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      Yeah, what incentive will chefs have to put food on plates, if the government takes away their God-granted monopoly, so that other chefs will then be able to do the same thing? Getting paid for the meal by the diners?! Pfffft!

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    11. Re:subjects in comments are stupid by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Don't know about Germany specifically but in other places a recipe can't be protected, other than keeping it secret (like Coca Cola). In that case anyone can buy it, taste it, and attempt to replicate it.

      That's different to the specific wording of a recipe in a book - that's covered by copyright.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    12. Re:subjects in comments are stupid by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      And obviously chefs need to have their food creations copyrighted for 95 years otherwise they'll have no incentive to cook more food!

      Next up: Does moving the food around (such as when you eat the food) create a derivative work? If so, eating the food is a violation of the chef's copyright and you should just stare at the food until the waiter brings it back to the kitchen.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    13. Re: subjects in comments are stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like the other AC says. It's a derivative work which may, or may not, qualify as a new work.

      Could only be applied for a picture of an untouched plate.

      You have never been in court have you. At least in US courts the truth doesn't matter, it's how expensive your attorneys are and how expensively the plaintiff and defendant are dressed.

    14. Re: subjects in comments are stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does Germany have a codified fair use?

      It does not.

    15. Re: subjects in comments are stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If what you're saying were true, when people upload hollywood blockbuster movies to youtube with the usual silly background and overlaid lens flares / permutations to the image (so they can get around the auto DMCA youtube filters) it's now legal, because they moved the picture around a bit and cut open a bit of the image.

      Doubt it works that way...

    16. Re: subjects in comments are stupid by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Whenever Germany sees an opportunity for a new rule and a big fine for something, that opportunity will be taken.

    17. Re: subjects in comments are stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Send like a non story.. Could only be applied for a picture of an untouched plate..

      I hope you are either joking, or a god, or both (being a lawyer or a judge is not adequate here). You don't KNOW this is okay until tested in court. Are you willing to test it in court every single time? This is the problem with ridiculous laws; you need a lot of money to prove you don't violate them.

    18. Re:subjects in comments are stupid by operagost · · Score: 1

      You don't cook, do you? You can't tell what all the ingredients are by looking at it.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    19. Re:subjects in comments are stupid by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      In the USA, a recipe can't be covered by copyright because it's a collection of facts and directions, but theoretically it can be patented as a process and/or composition of matter. It's very difficult to get a recipe past prior art and obviousness, but it is considered patentable subject matter.

    20. Re: subjects in comments are stupid by jcfandino · · Score: 2

      If what you're saying were true, when people upload hollywood blockbuster movies to youtube with the usual silly background and overlaid lens flares / permutations to the image (so they can get around the auto DMCA youtube filters) it's now legal, because they moved the picture around a bit and cut open a bit of the image.

      Doubt it works that way...

      Ah, you saw JJ's Star Trek too?

    21. Re:subjects in comments are stupid by tipo159 · · Score: 1

      In the USA, a recipe can't be covered by copyright because it's a collection of facts and directions, but theoretically it can be patented as a process and/or composition of matter. It's very difficult to get a recipe past prior art and obviousness, but it is considered patentable subject matter.

      Unless that recipe is called "software"

    22. Re: subjects in comments are stupid by TWX · · Score: 1

      Ah, you saw JJ's Star Trek too?

      Was that what it was? With all of the lens flares I wasn't sure.

      I feel so terrible now, realizing how cool I though the lens flares in Babylon 5 were, back when I was fourteen and didn't know any better.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    23. Re:subjects in comments are stupid by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      As soon as the recipe is printed in a book, that book is copyrighted.

      However everyone is free to cook that dish.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    24. Re:subjects in comments are stupid by oldmac31310 · · Score: 0

      The truly derivative work would be the digested food ejected some hours after eating the meal. Here herr chef, you may have my work (artfully arranged on a plate) for the nominal fee of one euro. What? You don't want it?

      --
      http://www.acetonestudio.com
    25. Re: subjects in comments are stupid by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Then it becomes a parody work. Any post of "look how awful this food is!" has to be marked clearly as "parody" to avoid a lawsuit.

    26. Re: subjects in comments are stupid by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      As much as I hated the bloody lens flare every other second, believe it or not JJ Abrams actually apologized for the over-use of the lens flare. But that is Hollywood these days -- form over function.

      Bringing this back on topic. This is a retarded law. What's next? Taking a picture of the restaurant's cutlery is illegal?

    27. Re: subjects in comments are stupid by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Would that make my poop a derivative work as well?

    28. Re: subjects in comments are stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL.... Good point........Do your own creative art work

  2. So I can sue myself ... by amalcolm · · Score: 0

    ...when I post a pic of my home-cooked dinner on Faceblog :)

    --
    Time for bed, said Zebedee - boing
    1. Re:So I can sue myself ... by Chrisq · · Score: 2

      ...when I post a pic of my home-cooked dinner on Faceblog :)

      No but a German chef could sue you if he cooked something that looked the same first.

    2. Re:So I can sue myself ... by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      yeah and that's a real problem.

      EVEN HIGHER PROBLEM is that a tv dinner maker could sue unfavorable reviews of it's food if they included picture of said food.

      like come on, you bought it and the primary purpose is to not look pretty.

      of course, you could always make a derivative work of it ? like, slice into it..

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    3. Re:So I can sue myself ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No he couldn't. That's not how copyright works.

  3. Fair Use by chrispix · · Score: 0

    But is a photo of art, not art itself? Fair use...

    1. Re: Fair Use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought photos for personal (non commercial) use were all considered Fair Use. No?

    2. Re:Fair Use by Aqualung812 · · Score: 1

      Fair use is a concept in American law. That doesn't make it automatically accepted in Germany.

      --
      Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
  4. So before ordering... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ask if the chef has a problem with taking photo's of the food. If he does, walk right out.

    1. Re: So before ordering... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Riiiight. You go do that.

    2. Re:So before ordering... by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      Hahhah! Man, that sounds ridiculous. :D Create a video of you doing that and put it up in YouTube.

    3. Re:So before ordering... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hahhah! Man, that sounds ridiculous. :D Create a video of you doing that and put it up in YouTube.

      Then you would get sued for being a bully and for not asking permission to record and place him on youtube.....

    4. Re:So before ordering... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a problem with apostrophe plurals.

    5. Re:So before ordering... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or does the company own them instead? Often when an employee creates new IP, the rights are automatically transferred to the company.

      Seriously though, this is so fucked no matter how you look at it. Hopefully there will be a new reneissance coming soon, one that embraces creativity and innovation. I've used a lot of freely licensed software and artistic material in my commercial projects and I've also released everything I can with similar licenses. I've made a lot of money from this and I hope and believe that others are able to utilize my creations in their works as well.

      The IP laws today make almost everyone a criminal. The interpretation is lenient as a default, but it's made so that it can pretty much be made a tool of legal distortion at will.

    6. Re: So before ordering... by pla · · Score: 1

      Riiiight. You go do that.

      Although not really practical, I go to restaurants to eat food, not admire some bullshit "art" project. If any chef seriously has a problem with me taking a picture of my dinner, that pretty much cinches it that I don't want to eat there.

      Then again, for the same reason, I have zero interest in taking pictures of my dinner, never mind posting it online - Seriously, WTF, what sociopathic height of vanity does it take to believe anyone wants to see what I had for dinner?

    7. Re:So before ordering... by Sloppy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Create a video of you doing that and put it up in YouTube.

      WTF. Did you really bring a camera into my restaurant? I'm calling the cops. BTW, how did you make it past security with that thing? The head waiter should have found it when he patted you down. Needless to say, no, you won't be putting this on youtube, because the waiter's uniform and my chef hat are copyrighted. You'll at least have to crop those out. Oh, and my barber says you need to blur out my moustache if you use this conversation in your video, too. (No, your video can't have my restaurant's tables and chairs in it; the supply company was very clear about their IP.) Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out, and obviously I don't need to tell you why you can't show the door, because even if the door itself weren't copyrighted, it also happens to have our business-hours sign on it...

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    8. Re: So before ordering... by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      In general I agree with you. But I often take pictures of the Thanksgiving and Christmas table before we all cut into everything. It's a memory of the occasion.

      I've gone to pizzerias (shout out to DiFara's) and taken pictures of the pie. But - these are my memories. Not yours.

      But yeah - unless you truly have something to say I can't see being interested in what anyone else had to eat if I wasn't there. (Exception being when my daughter was at camp and sent me a photo of what she had for dinner.

      I see now that this list of exceptions is growing. :-)

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
  5. Move it around first .... simple! by SillyBrit · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Move the items on the plate around a bit, then it becomes your own work or a derrivative work.

    --
    --- To save space, would readers please insert their own witty comment -here-
    1. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 5, Funny

      a derrivative work

      I had a later stage of the process in mind, but sure, that works too.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    2. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by Tablizer · · Score: 2

      I don't want to be a juror for that copyright trial

    3. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by bickerdyke · · Score: 2

      ...which requires permission from the original artist.

      One more thing the lawyers already took care of.

      --
      bickerdyke
    4. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That can't be right, lest the chefs must get permission from every person in the chain before them from sous to farm.

    5. Re: Move it around first .... simple! by prefec2 · · Score: 4, Informative

      We do not have jurors in Germany. At least not in the way as in the US. A judge deterimes the outcome.

    6. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by bkmoore · · Score: 1

      It won't work, there's only so many ways you can rearrange a Bratwurst or Currywurst.

    7. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by Tasha26 · · Score: 2

      Arrangement of say 5 elements on a given surface is finite (unless you want to go into args like "these fries 3mm apart instead of 1 and facing 2 o'clock instead of 3"). Lets assume that number was 5, then only 5 people in the whole world would be entitled to the copyright on a first-come basis. What about the billion other Jackson Pollocks who stumble on 1 of the 5 arrangements by accident? This is an insane ruling and should be appealed.

    8. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The threshold of originality wouldn't in most cases be met. A sausage for example is something that in its normal form can't be claimed to be an original artistic presentation. Now, if the sausage was dog-shaped, it might qualify within the constraints of this silly law.

      The chefs themselves also have to be able to prove that their works are "original works of art". If someone has laid out food on the plate in a similar fashion earlier, they're shit out of luck. And while talking about shit, I suppose this can be applied to shit too. You better not post a pic of the crapper if whats in there resembles anything like what I ejected last week.

    9. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By eating it you are also creating a derivative work. If you don't have a license for creating derivative work, you are legally not permitted to eat your meal.

    10. Re: Move it around first .... simple! by moronoxyd · · Score: 4, Informative

      .But we do have lay judges (Schöffen)

      For our non-German friends: Instead of judge and jury we have a panel of judges, some of whom (sometimes the whole panel with one exception) may not be studied lawyers but citizen 'drafted' to judge duty for a year or so.

    11. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...which requires permission from the original artist.

      Huh? If I bought a work of art, I am free to destroy it by rearranging pieces, cutting it into smaller pieces - or even eating it! The original artist cannot complain after the sale is made.

    12. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by ramriot · · Score: 1

      Its not even necessary to do that. If your camera app has filters and artistic image manipulation then you 'improve' the image with your software and now it is your copyrighted work.

    13. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by cdrudge · · Score: 1

      Arrangement of say 5 elements on a given surface is finite (unless you want to go into args like "these fries 3mm apart instead of 1 and facing 2 o'clock instead of 3").

      You can't just ignore positioning details though. Would you say a copyright for a written work only includes just the order of letters without regard to spacing and punctuation? For for a musical work just the sequence of notes and not duration of notes, pauses, and timbre?

    14. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by Sloppy · · Score: 2

      Uh.. are you suggesting that your kitchen has lax documentation for its ingredient rights licensing? Shhh! Good thing you posted as AC, or else the Business Food Alliance would know whom to audit next.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    15. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by gurps_npc · · Score: 1

      The chef gives explicit permission to move the food around when they put a fork, knife, spoon, or chopsticks next to it.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    16. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Shouldn't "food presentation" be something consciously added to copyright law by legislatures rather than by judges? It differs from historical works of creativity.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    17. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not even that. It's your own damn property. The way this sounds, VW would get to sue their own customers for taking insurance pictures of a crash, oh and the insurance claims adjusters who take their evidence pictures of the car's damage, and of course anyone nearby who happened to take video of the crash.

      Copyright simply should not apply to physical consumer goods. You paid for the food, you can do with it what you will including taking selfies and posting them to Facebook. You buy an artist's print, you can do whatever the fuck you want with that print. Whether you frame it, draw on it, or wipe your ass with it, the artist gets no say in the matter. Food that is meant to be eaten is not art, no matter what feels you get from eating it.

    18. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sounds like a nice occasion to point out artist Wim Delvoye's and its Cloaca machines. Seen (and smelled) them for real, impressive work.

    19. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The chef gives explicit permission to move the food around when they put a fork, knife, spoon, or chopsticks next to it.

      The word you are looking for is implicit. Explicit permission would require them to tell you what the utensils are for (verbally, a sign, etc). Because they could theoretically be part of the 'artwork' (though likely no one would assume that), it's implied, rather than expressly stated.

    20. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by B33rNinj4 · · Score: 1

      I could see this being used as a solid defense.

    21. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      The ruling is not about the arrangement. (And you are wrong with your claim the number is finite, it is infinite, facepalm)

      The point is about publishing pictures of stuff you don't own the copyright to.

      So it is according to european law a straight forward case and the "victim" should have not gone to court but settled outside.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    22. Re:Move it around first .... simple! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So European law is really that retarded?

  6. Derivative Work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do we have to ask permission to make a shitty derivative work of the food?

    1. Re:Derivative Work by CCarrot · · Score: 1

      Do we have to ask permission to make a shitty derivative work of the food?

      No, only to take photos of said derivative work, which could really cramp some people's lifestyles...

      --
      "I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
    2. Re:Derivative Work by mspohr · · Score: 1

      That is called digestion and elimination and it is assumed that this will take place.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    3. Re: Derivative Work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, a license to defecate is included with every copyrighted food? Nice!

  7. Why do some people want to prevent photography by Chrisq · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So we can't take a picture in a restaurant if it shows the food because of the chef's copyright. There are already moves to say that you cannot take photographs in a street without the building's architect's permission. What next - photograps of people wearing clothes infringing the designer's permission? Soon we will only be able to take photographs of people in the nude in a wilderness (not farmland, the farmer's neatly trimmed hedgerows, fences, and dry-stone walls hold a copyright too).

    1. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Don't forget about those poor toothpase manufacturers. No smiling! And don't even dare take pictures of dyed or cut hair without the appropriate paperwork!

    2. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      Soon we will only be able to take photographs of people in the nude in a wilderness

      As long as you don't get sued by their hairstylist for taking pictures that show their hairstyle.

    3. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The building image copyright didn't passed, so stop spreading it as a rumor.

    4. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      If you take a photo with the lens cap on, you're violating the copyright of the camera designer.

    5. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by gsslay · · Score: 1

      This won't happen because unenforceable and ridiculous laws naturally fall into disrepute, and either become ignored or removed. As long as photograph and video technology continues on its path of being common place, recording-by-default, undetectable and unintrusive, these laws have no chance.

      You can't stop someone photography/videoing/recording when you can't tell if they're doing it, and everyone is doing it all the time anyway.

    6. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by henni16 · · Score: 2

      Don't mix taking pictures with distributing them.
      I'm pretty sure the German case was about distributing pictures, not taking them.

    7. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by houghi · · Score: 1

      You make it sound like a bad thing.I see taking a picture as a privilege, not a right.
      I also think that robot.txt should hold the include, not the exclude.

      I do know that I am almost alone in these ideas and that it will never happen. Not because of companies, but because people do not understand what privacy is.

      To me public means everything that is not private and that means it can include things in public places.
      Many others (especially in the US) think that private means everything that is not public.

      So for me taking a picture of me in a public place should not be allowed. For others, taking a picture when you forgot to close the curtains should be allowed.

      I am not saying my idea is better (although I think it is). I just point out the completely different points of view that excist.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    8. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Consider the following: Mugger beats the crap out of someone and robs them, later during his trial pictures of the victim are presented as evidence. Mugger then sues the police department and his victim for violation of his copyright to the art applied to the victims face.

    9. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by slinches · · Score: 1

      What's the point of taking them if not to share them?

      --
      Knowledge Brings Fear
    10. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      To capture their soul and keep it imprisoned on the photograph.

    11. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      Consider the following: Mugger beats the crap out of someone and robs them, later during his trial pictures of the victim are presented as evidence. Mugger then sues the police department and his victim for violation of his copyright to the art applied to the victims face.

      ... I would suggest that the police arrange a happening in the cells for the mugger afterwards, and keep full video and audio rights

    12. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      If you take a photo with the lens cap on, you're violating the copyright of the camera designer.

      Blackboard makers would then claim prior art

    13. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by dougmc · · Score: 1

      Soon we will only be able to take photographs of people in the nude in a wilderness

      I take it that you're assuming that $DIETY will not come out and assert copyright on His own works?

      Actually, the parents could claim copyright on their children's bodies, and so could their grandparents (derivative works), etc.

      At some point this becomes ridiculous. Food? The point has already passed, clearly.

    14. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by pavon · · Score: 1

      Damn, my moderation points just expired!

    15. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      So we can't take a picture in a restaurant if it shows the food because of the chef's copyright.
      Sigh ... how hard can it be to grasp it?
      YES you are allowed to take the picture. You even can show it to family and friends, sent it via eMail and print it into a photo book.
      HOWEVER: you are not allowed to publish it, on facebook or any other media.

      ALLL copyright works like that, there are only very few exceptions.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    16. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The idea that you cannot take a photo of your dinner plate and post it on your Facebook is idiotic.

      If that's really what the law says, it should be amended ASAP.

      What next, you can't take a picture of yourself after a haircut because that would violate the stylist's copyright on the artistic arrangement of your hair?

    17. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      In general you can take pictures of food and post them on facebook.

      The article in question is only a mind experiment ... however a lawyer concluded that in special cases the arrangement of food could be so artistic that it might be a violation of copyright.

      The law can not so easy be changed. We don't like laws that have exceptions for Facebook. The laws are generally worded in a way that they cover more or less all life and all practical situations.

      And: everyone knows that "publishing" stuff he has "copied" from somewhere is usually a copyright violation ...

      The haircut example is easy resolved as my right to publish fotos of my self is above the copyright of the guys who made the cut, or my clothes ...

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    18. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Of course the law shouldn't make an exception for Facebook. It should make an exception for fair use, which FB should obviously qualify for.

    19. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Obviously Facebook does not qualify for fair use.
      That is exactly my point.
      Nor does any other "mass media" qualify.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    20. Re:Why do some people want to prevent photography by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The notion of "mass media" in the day and age of social networks is so quaint.

  8. good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Anything exposing the ridiculousness of copyright is welcome.

    As a kid, I thought "that's my idea!" was childish playground talk. As a student, I learned that publishing and sharing was key to advancing science and culture. In the commercial world, I felt I was back in the playground.

    Still, the new rule here will be that you know a restaurant is bad when nobody is allowed to photo the food.

    1. Re:good. by lurker412 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Anything exposing the ridiculousness of copyright is welcome.

      I agree with you in principle, but in practice, the absurdities only seem to be accumulating, not going away.

    2. Re:good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But... imagine the horror if the copyright would not apply to food:
      everybody could copy it and those hungry children of Africa would be stealing the food from food-copyright-holders for free...

    3. Re:good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Theoretically eventually a law becomes so absurd it costs too much to enforce it and hand down judgement for each case.

    4. Re:good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Anything exposing the ridiculousness of copyright is welcome.

      That's a rather stupid thing to say when every ruling thus far has made copyright law fucking worse.

      That's like saying "let's allow monopolies run rampant to expose how bad monopolies are!" AFTER monopolies are in power, it becomes impossible to dissolve them.

      The stupidity around copyright is obvious. Has been for years. Doesn't stop lawyers from getting rich which is exactly why change for the good has not occurred and won't.

    5. Re:good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      every ruling thus far has made copyright law fucking worse.

      Absent strong democratic participation, the pendulum must first swing too far in one direction, unfortunately.

    6. Re:good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because the people who benefit from copyright laws are the ones writing it. The congressmen intermediaries put forth no more input than a pen would while you hand-write a document.

    7. Re:good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anything exposing the ridiculousness of copyright is welcome.

      Ah, the Nobel fallacy. There is no such thing as an upper limit on ridiculosity that can't become the new standard. Just look at daytime TV.

  9. Pirates! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I can't wait for all the people that torrent food pictures to get arrested

    1. Re:Pirates! by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Would you download pics using BiteTorrent?

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  10. Enough is enough by savuporo · · Score: 2, Funny

    I mean, everyone is fed up with the constant flood of instagrams and faceblogfucks of the burritos or squirrels you had for lunch today. German ingenuity just figured out the way to cull the flood. Copyright for the common cause !

    --
    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slashdot.org Errors found while checking this document as HTML5!
    1. Re:Enough is enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yap

    2. Re:Enough is enough by cassidy2015 · · Score: 0

      I`m agree w you

      --
      Cassidy -> Cassidy.ro este un site care ofera lenjerie intima ieftin, haine fe
  11. Food for lawyers by aberglas · · Score: 1

    So what happens when one chef happens to arrange the vegies the same way as another? Or if, when prosecuted for photography, we can find prior art?

    Or, heaven forbid, someone else cooks something that *tastes* the same.

    These new laws will definitely inspire culinary innovation. You can expect to see a large investment in producing culinary IP as a result!

    1. Re:Food for lawyers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "So what happens when one chef happens to arrange the vegies the same way as another? Or if, when prosecuted for photography, we can find prior art?"

      That's going to be the fun thing when these chefs realize what the fuck they've opened themselves up to. They can now sue each other out of business in a copyright courtroom.

      But that aside, prior art doesn't apply to copyright - it applies to patents. Don't go getting your imaginary property rules crossed even if big business does so deliberately all the time.

    2. Re:Food for lawyers by dwywit · · Score: 1

      How does this apply to restaurant reviewers who would like to compare, say, one chef's idea of vegetables with that of another chef.

      "I'm a food blogger, this photograph is fair use blah blah blah review, criticism, etc"

      --
      They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
    3. Re:Food for lawyers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what happens when one chef happens to arrange the vegies the same way as another?

      What happens when you need to take a photograph to provide proof of the original infringement?
       

    4. Re:Food for lawyers by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      "Prior art" is not a copyright concept but a patent concept.

      These law is not new. It is there since a few hundred years.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  12. Officer, why am I being arrested? by tlambert · · Score: 2

    A: Officer, why am I being arrested?
    O: For crapping in the street.
    A: But I didn't!
    O: I have a picture of it right here.
    A: Sorry, but that's a piece of performance art, and you are in violation of my copyright; delete the picture now!
    O: OK. ...

    Probably not the way things would go, even in Germany.

    1. Re:Officer, why am I being arrested? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A: Officer, why am I being arrested? O: For crapping in the street. A: But I didn't! O: I have a picture of it right here. A: Sorry, but that's a piece of performance art, and you are in violation of my copyright; delete the picture now! O: OK. ...

      Probably not the way things would go, even in Germany.

      I've seen how it goes in Germany on tv "Ein Aushvisse Bitte" ... "You are a spy" .... (shots fired)

    2. Re:Officer, why am I being arrested? by quenda · · Score: 1

      I'm asserting copyright on my car's image (due to my tasteful decoration with bumper stickers and "My Family" stick-figures).
      Next time I pass a speed camera, the police department will be counter-sued.

    3. Re:Officer, why am I being arrested? by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      ... and in any case (as others have pointed out) your creation is just a derivative work of the chef where you ate yesterday evening...

    4. Re:Officer, why am I being arrested? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, in Germany they take it to the next level:

      1. Film naked people shitting on other naked people
      2. Release it on DVD
      3. ???
      4. Profit!

      So pay attention, because if the officer's uniform is made of rubber, you may get more than what you bargained for...

    5. Re:Officer, why am I being arrested? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I saw the best "My Family" stick figures the other day. It showed a stick guy that said "Me" and then a stick old lady that said "Your mom."

    6. Re:Officer, why am I being arrested? by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

      It may also be considered derived work and in violation of the last meal Chef's copyright.

    7. Re:Officer, why am I being arrested? by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      No, in Germany they take it to the next level:

      1. Film naked people shitting on other naked people

      I though that was the US military

    8. Re:Officer, why am I being arrested? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://barkpost.com/dog-poop-street-art/

      haha It is a thing.

  13. Open source food by jones_supa · · Score: 1

    Or, how about open source food? How can I know if the restaurant puts malicious components in the food? I can't, unless I can see the original precise recipe and audit it before ordering anything. Also, I must be able to trust the packager (the cook) to not slip anything nasty in.

    1. Re:Open source food by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      Good point. I've sometimes thought of using that analogy in reverse, to advocate open source software: using closed source is like eating food with unknown ingredients. This might not work for the average joe eating at McD, but there are plenty of food-conscious hipsters around who might get it.

      OT: I feel a bit paranoid about your sig... is it my ISP inserting ads there?

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  14. It's wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I pay for the dish, so the dish will be mine. I take a pics of something that I bought....

    No copyright ....

    1. Re:It's wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I totally agree, so their law says you can not take a picture of something you bought? WTH Germany?

    2. Re:It's wrong by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 1

      Copyright so doesn't work like that. You pay for a book, but doing so doesn't let you scan it and post it on the internet.

      --
      Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
    3. Re:It's wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      But you can take a picture of the book and post it online, right? Because you're not scanning the contents of the book, the reason it has value. So why couldn't you post a picture of your food online, no one can eat it online, the reason it has value ...

    4. Re:It's wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I prefer to pay for my food, look at it for a while, then leave.

    5. Re:It's wrong by CCarrot · · Score: 1

      But you can take a picture of the book and post it online, right? Because you're not scanning the contents of the book, the reason it has value. So why couldn't you post a picture of your food online, no one can eat it online, the reason it has value ...

      Precisely! The intrinsic value of the food is (or should be) in the taste and to some degree aroma, not in the appearance!

      I know presentation is much hyped in the food world these days, but honestly, I would never select a place to eat based on how good its food looked. Most of my favourite places to eat are sharing-dish places (think Thai or Viet-Namese restaurants), where everyone orders a dish that sounds good, and everyone takes a bit of everything on the table. While the food definitely looks good (and smells great!), I'm pretty sure it's just ladled into the bowls and brought to the table with 'maybe' a lemon wedge or two tossed on top.

      That being said, I suppose I might avoid going to a place that served three green beans draped over a poached strawberry as a main course, but I wouldn't have to see a photo of the plate to know that I would never eat there, a brief description would do.

      --
      "I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
  15. A way to compete: Post a sign, "Photos Allowed." by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 3, Funny

    Basically, no photos will be allowed in a German restaurant because food might be in the photos.

    If I owned a restaurant in Germany, I would post a sign, "Photos Allowed."

  16. Simplification by mseeger · · Score: 1

    That statements simplifies the legal situation. The example was concerning high-level restaurants where the food presentation might reach a level of art that could be protected. You won't get hammered for taking a shot of your burger at McDonalds ;-).

    Even with high-level restaurants, while there may be a policy which asks you not to take photos, no lawsuit has been initiated yet. So this is a very theoretical discussion.

    And all of this has to be tested in court....

    1. Re:Simplification by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      McDonalds does have a very specific process for manufacturing their burgers. Things like the order and size of ingredients, and details such as toppings should touch and not overlap.

      Since copyright doesn't make any judgements on how good a creation is or what it's worth, I'd actually argue that these would have at least as good a claim to copyright protection as the typical nouvelle cuisine.

    2. Re:Simplification by EzInKy · · Score: 1

      I'd say this an argument for requiring copyright registrations if ever there was one. 99.9% of all cooks don't care if people take pictures of their food. The very few who do can beg and pay the government for protection if they want it.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    3. Re:Simplification by mseeger · · Score: 2

      This is why I mentioned the simplification. German law makes judgement about how good a creation is. Since we are Germans, we even have an own word for it: "SchÃpfungshÃhe" (in english; Threshold of originality).

      If you don't reach a certain level, no copyright protection.

    4. Re:Simplification by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That statements simplifies the legal situation. The example was concerning high-level restaurants where the food presentation might reach a level of art that could be protected. You won't get hammered for taking a shot of your burger at McDonalds ;-).

      Even with high-level restaurants, while there may be a policy which asks you not to take photos, no lawsuit has been initiated yet. So this is a very theoretical discussion.

      And all of this has to be tested in court....

      ... and the sandwich "artists" at Subway?

  17. And what about the napkin arrangement? by SpaghettiPattern · · Score: 1

    And what about the napkin arrangement? Many hours go into studying origami.

    Finally someone takes action! The proprietors of Imbiss will be delighted. EUR 3 for a Bratwurst and a mere EUR 99 for the right to take a picture of the grub. Picture of the way the plastic container is presented? Prices start at EUR 250. Power to the chippies!

    --

    I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
  18. Let them sue me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See what it does to tourism

  19. What's next?? by Aethedor · · Score: 2

    This is insane! What's next? Being sued by an architect for a photo of a building? By a webdesigner for a screenshot? By a cars manufacturer for a photo of one of their cars? By parents for a photo of their child? By god for any photo you make?

    --
    It doesn't have to be like this. All we need to do is make sure we keep talking.
    1. Re:What's next?? by Godwin+O'Hitler · · Score: 1

      Architectural works are already copyright restricted in many countries. (I use the word restricted rather than protected consciously as the latter is a lie.)
      Even the lighting of them can be photorestricted. Snap the Eiffel tower in the daytime, no problem: Gustav has been dead much longer than Walt. Snap it at night and that's a different matter.

      --
      No, your children are not the special ones. Nor are your pets.
    2. Re:What's next?? by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      This is insane! What's next? Being sued by an architect for a photo of a building?

      That is already the case. Though if the building is on public display (and buildings often are), then non commercial photos are allowed, but they may restrict licensing rights for post-cards, t-shirts and all the other tourist crap.

    3. Re:What's next?? by PhilHibbs · · Score: 2

      This is insane! What's next? Being sued by an architect for a photo of a building?

      Yep.

  20. hitler did nothing wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    germany you are drunk, go to poland

  21. Of course you can take a picture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you just cannot put it on a website without permission.

  22. Do I need his permission for making a derived work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Do I need his permission for making a derived work? Or am I allowed to shit without his permission after eating?

    And I can agree with this ruling under the idea that the arrangement of the food was an artistic act, a performance. However, as a required participant of this artistic endeavour, I feel I must ask what my hourly rate as a "model" taking part as the coequal player in this little creative endeavour of "having a meal"? It's somewhere around $100/hr, minimum 2 hours, right? Well, I'm not with Equity,so I guess half that. Then again, the chef isn't a member of Equity either.

    And has the Chef got permission for performing a public performance in accordance with the regulations?

  23. The summary is misleading by dunkelfalke · · Score: 4, Informative

    I have read TFA (and no, I am most certainly not new here) and it is full of hypothetical blah blah. Basically, some lawyer thinks that when the food has been artistically arranged, one has to ask the chef first before making photos, or one possibly might receive a cease-and-desist letter if the chef sees the photo and is in the mood for writing one. Never happened so far but maybe possibly might happen some day. Also can happen if the eating place owner generally doesn't allow taking photos.

    --
    "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    1. Re:The summary is misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What else do you expect from a nation of Jew killers? You are not allowed to talk with your mouth full either, something disgusting Americans haven't been trained on. Mostly because dinner is at McDonald's , (well, actually, it's hard to tell what an American is these days with all the garbage that floats in at high tide).

    2. Re:The summary is misleading by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Mostly because dinner is at McDonald's

      Americans don't need McDonald's to get fat. And in fact, McDonald's is losing business left and right. Fast food is really suffering in America right now because people aren't eating it as much. No loss there.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re: The summary is misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it is a public space people can take photos, film, or otherwise record whatever they want. Restaurants are public places.

    4. Re: The summary is misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Restaurants are public places.

      That's wrong. Restaurants are private property. They may choose who is allowed in their establishment and remove anyone they please for any reason. It's just like your own home (hell, even if you rent your landlord can't just come barging in anytime he wants, and he owns the place!).

      Public places are specifically only those owned and operated by the government. Even publicly accessible/usable spaces like a park can be private property if they're owned by an individual or corporation, and the park owners can declare such things as no photography allowed in the park. If you fail to leave the park when asked, you can be charged with trespassing.

    5. Re: The summary is misleading by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      That's wrong. Restaurants are private property

      So are shops, being private property does not stop something from being public space.

    6. Re:The summary is misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know about you but when I go out to eat, I don't want my steak cut into small cubes and turned into a meat based replica of Pieta or David.

      Presentation is a thing. . . . I get it, but this is food, not art.

      I know Chefs can have over sized egos but come on. When it comes down to it, you are a COOK. Period. With a silly hat.

  24. Someone should have *actually* read the article .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    All the fuzz seems to be based on a piece from one attorney Dr. Niklas Haberkamm from Lampmann, Haberkamm & Rosenbaum. And the rest of the article goes on how actually there were just (mostly) failed attempts to suppress taking pictures of food. Also how two bloggers report that this is usually appreciated by restauranteurs.

    Summary: move on, nothing to see here.

  25. Not a real case by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ... a German court judgment from 2013 ...

    Should one infer that no German chef actually banned photographs of his food? This would make sense since the visual aesthetic is not a major selling point of a meal: Social 'atmosphere', flavour and texture are.

  26. My parents' copyright! by t0mek · · Score: 1

    Taking picture of me clearly violates my parents' copyright copyright for their creation.

  27. Germany says a lot of things... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    ... Including "Sieg Heil". The best answer is: "Tell me, kraut, did you enjoy the Dresden bombing?"

  28. The concept of copyright by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, it is a logical consequence of the concept of copyright, but it mostly shows how retarded that concept really is.

  29. I'm a fashion designer by The_Revelation · · Score: 1

    So does that mean its now illegal to take photos of me wearing clothes? I've felt it should be illegal to take unauthorized photos of my fashion for the past 30 years. How do i collect my money now?

  30. To clarify by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Just to clarify: The court made it clear that this only applys if
    (1) The restaurant makes it clear that taking photografs is not allowed
    (2) The Chef must have given a considerable amount of work into the look of the food

    Also, this is technically not a fine. It is what you pay to settle without seeing a court. (Around 600-1000€)

  31. This is the Stupidest thing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... to come out of Europe since the "right to be forgotten."

  32. Work for hire? by ixl · · Score: 1

    Surely if I pay the Chef to produce the food then it's a work for hire, and copyright passes to me, no?

    1. Re:Work for hire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Copyrights can't be transfered in Germany, it always belongs to the creator. He can sell the right to use his work though.

      IANAL, but iirc there is even a copyright on photographies of you made by a professional photographer, even if you hire them and they just do what you ask them for.

    2. Re:Work for hire? by PhilHibbs · · Score: 1

      So don't ask a bystander to take a photo of you and your girlfriend in front of the Brandenburg Gate, because you can't post it on facebook when you come home because the bystander owns the copyright.

  33. copy-what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Taking a photo of something is not copying, unless the thing is an image itself.
    There could be other laws (reputation protection is a thing where I live for instance), but not copyright.

  34. What, this is idiotic! by hattig · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The food was cooked to order on behalf of the customer. There is an implied transfer of ownership and all rights from the restaurant (or chef) to the customer, hence the customer is allowed to destroy the chef's work without being sued.

    If the chef wanted to retain artistic copyright of his work, then he should have got the customer to sign a contract.

    1. Re:What, this is idiotic! by henni16 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not that it matters because the entire discussion is purely theoretical, but copyright works slightly different in Germany. AFAIK as a creator you always retain the copyright, you can only sell / license (distribution) rights-

    2. Re:What, this is idiotic! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a great idea, meals with real click^^^H shrinkwrap..... "By consuming this meal you agree to...."

      I got a better idea, destroy copyright completely. It's clear that these parasites can't possibly function in modern society without being in total control. So let us take that control from them by force and watch them perish. Then once they are gone, perhaps we can discus creation of a new system where the creator of a work can get compensation, without allowing or permitting this kind of nonsense.

      To those that say "What about my right to sell my creation's copyright?" No dice. The point of copyright is to allow a creator of a work to receive compensation for that work SO THAT the creator may go on to improve upon that work, or create new works. It is NOT a money making system. It is a system for the betterment of the public. By selling that work's copyright to another individual / group you give them control over it, but you keep the creativity that made it, thus the work can't be improved easily. You also disbar yourself from improving the sold work. In this case the public suffers. The public does not get what they have agreed to which was: "You get this copyright, and in exchange YOU provide us with more works." The public wanted more quality works or improvements to the sold work from the original creator, not some other individual / group that has NOT proven that they can better the work that was sold. So the public has NO REASON to uphold that copyright anymore. The copyright was an agreement from the public to the original creator, once sold that copyright loses the value that made the public concede to the creator's request for the exclusive right to distribution in the first place.

      The public wants quality works, but the current copyright empire wants to abuse copyright against it's purpose. It's time we the public give this empire the boot and get what we are owed and that the empire agreed to.

    3. Re:What, this is idiotic! by gnupun · · Score: 1

      The food was cooked to order on behalf of the customer. There is an implied transfer of ownership and all rights from the restaurant (or chef) to the customer, hence the customer is allowed to destroy the chef's work without being sued.

      LOL, just because you order a dish, does not mean you are the new owner of its recipe, its presentation etc. You just have the right to eat and enjoy it, that's all. There is no other "transfer of ownership" of trade secrets and design of the dish.

    4. Re:What, this is idiotic! by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Now that raises an interesting debate: When you go to the restaurant are you purchasing a service or a product? And does that change if you order from a menu vs being one of the fussy customize everything types?

    5. Re:What, this is idiotic! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you *be* more off the target if you try? I doubt it.

      "You just have the right to eat and enjoy it, that's all."

      Incredible...

    6. Re:What, this is idiotic! by Primate+Pete · · Score: 1

      How can you possibly contend that there is a trade secret revealed by the visible aspect of an advertised item? This is just a picture of an event that is occurring in public.

    7. Re:What, this is idiotic! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like a Snapchat picture, the chef only created the food imagery with the understanding that it would be ephemeral and destroyed at the recipients side after achieving its intended impact. Like with a Snapchat picture, the primary transaction did not involve the permission to see your zucchini and nuts dangling from every billboard in town.

    8. Re:What, this is idiotic! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only the medium, the food, is transferred during a restaurant visit, not the artistic expressions and design elements themselves.

      Suing your own customers sounds like an innovative businessplan, if not for the fact this particular business process is already patented and thus the chef itself is in violation and due to pay fines.

      Reading this you accept you owe me USD100 as compensation for educational value.

      Captcha: likely

    9. Re:What, this is idiotic! by gnupun · · Score: 1

      And brick-and-mortar bookstores allow you to read books that are on sale. Are you saying it's legal and okay I take photos with smartphone of all the useful pages of a book while I'm in the bookstore? Your "occurring in public" is not a good enough excuse.

      A customer or competitor can replicate the recipe more easily if he took the photo than if he did not.

      Bottom line: the product is on sale for consumption, but its trade and design secrets are not available for sale unless you pay a hefty fee and license them.

    10. Re:What, this is idiotic! by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      What? Germany follows the goblin rules of ownership? The goblin law: Maker always owns the creation, muggles and wizards who pay get a lifetime use license and the habit of wizards to pass goblin made objects from person to person without paying license fees to the goblin maker is considered a grave violation of goblin rights.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    11. Re:What, this is idiotic! by Primate+Pete · · Score: 1

      If true, this would prevent all photography that could potentially include an image of all or part of a product, on the grounds that it could help someone duplicate the product. It's true that a photograph might help, but we don't accept that argument for any other class of objects [cars, buildings, the RonCo Inside-The-Eggshell-Egg-Scrambler, GMO wheat], and there's no reason to think that cooking is somehow special.

      Also, I believe that once you begin talking about imitating manufacturing process, you're no longer talking about copyright, but about patents.

    12. Re:What, this is idiotic! by gnupun · · Score: 1

      Utility patents are only granted for significant innovations. You have to use trade secrets for minor innovations (such as quantity of a certain spice in a dish). And you can't get design patents on the appearance of a dish. So the business has to take matter into its own hands and prohibit such activity (that hurts profits), or are you unaware that filming a video inside a movie theater is a crime?

      I've said this in another thread, but IP laws are very lax and were created several hundred years ago when there were very few types of IP and copying and transmitting IP was very expensive, unlike today, where IP is very important.

      When considering a dish in a restaurant, what is the patron allowed to do with the dish needs to be clearly specified and what IP is prohibited should be clearly specified.

    13. Re:What, this is idiotic! by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      There's actually some debate about whether or not you can transfer copyrights in any Berne-signatory country, which is most of them. However since the food was created as part of a work for hire agreement, whoever paid for it should own full copyrights, as in the chef never had copyright in the first place.

    14. Re:What, this is idiotic! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So when I fart in a restaurant or anywhere else, all photographs taken before the optical influence of my gases has dispersed require my permission as they are derivative of my creation.

    15. Re:What, this is idiotic! by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      There is an implied transfer of ownership and all rights from the restaurant (or chef) to the customer
      No there is not. In europe you need a written contract to transfer "copyrights".

      And even in your country there is no "implicit" copyright transfer, perhaps you should consult a lawyer before you stick to that ridiculous idea.

      So, +5 insightful and plain wrong.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    16. Re:What, this is idiotic! by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      There's actually some debate about whether or not you can transfer copyrights in any Berne-signatory country
      There's actually is no debate about whether or not you can transfer copyrights. As strictly speaking:
      a) copyright does not exist in Europe (AFAIK USA signed the Berne contract too, but "apply" the law different)
      b) we have "moral rights" instead
      c) "moral rights" can not be "transferred at all"

      So instead of transferring rights, the creator gives a license to the buyer ... that might include "exclusive usage" and "exclusive right to copy/reproduce"

      However since the food was created as part of a work for hire agreement, whoever paid for it should own full copyrights
      Wow, starting with the Berne convention but you never have read it? The Berne convention explicitly states that the "copyright" sticks to the creator unless there is a written contract ... perhaps you should read once what you think to be an expert about?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    17. Re:What, this is idiotic! by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      a) copyright does not exist in Europe

      It most certainly does. Also, what?

      b) we have "moral rights" instead
      c) "moral rights" can not be "transferred at all"

      Moral rights are mostly about the right of the content creators to publicly identify themselves as such, and to maintain the integrity of their work.

      Wow, starting with the Berne convention but you never have read it? The Berne convention explicitly states that the "copyright" sticks to the creator unless there is a written contract

      ...which would be work for hire...

    18. Re:What, this is idiotic! by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      ...which would be work for hire...

      No it would not. I can hire you in Europe for what ever you agree on and all the work you do is still "copyrighted" by YOU! Unless we explicitly write a contract and explicitely transfer "rights" to me. AND I pay you extra for that transfer.

      Copyright: It most certainly does. Also, what?
      No, it does not. I explained clearly that we have "moral rights" which go far far far beyond what you call "copyright" in the US.

      E.g in the US the "copyright" can be transferred. And in Europe "moral rights" can't be transferred. However the creator can give a customer the right to copy/publish /distribute his work. And in the same contract he can resign from his privilege to copy/distribute his work.

      On top of that he has the right to make this "license" non transferable etc. or if transfers are happening, he is payed again. If a new media is discovered for with the work needs to be adapted: he gets payed again, or the "customer" can not use that media.

      The american term: "work for hire" has absolutely no meaning regarding "copyright" or "moral rights" in Europe (and most non US countries)

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    19. Re:What, this is idiotic! by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      I live in Europe. Copyright absolutely does exist here, and moral rights don't mean what you seem to think they mean. My original comment "there's actually some debate about whether or not you can transfer copyrights in any Berne-signatory country" was explicitly a reference to licensing copyrights and would also refer to the need for things like creative commons licensing, even in the US.

      More information can be found here and note in particular for this case: "German courts also often will imply a contractual transfer of ownership to the employer based upon an employment agreement."

    20. Re:What, this is idiotic! by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Well, then ask a lawyer if you don't believe me.

      The way how american copyright works is completely different than how our "copyright" works, and the name is different. So: no! In Europe we have no "copyright". Hence I wrote "copyright" in quotes, as it is not the same thing as how stuff works under the Berne-convention.

      "there's actually some debate about whether or not you can transfer copyrights in any Berne-signatory country" No there is not. As the "copyright" as you know it does not exist under the Berne-convention. Under the Berne-convention we have moral rights and moral rights are untransferable. One of the prime differences between "copyright" and 'moral rights'.

      I don't know what you want to say with your link, but I strongly suggest to read and comprehend page ten of that link ;D

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    21. Re:What, this is idiotic! by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      I give up. Listen if you think we don't have copyrights in Europe you should go edit this page because clearly all of the editors and copyright lawyers and the government copyright departments and all that are delusional.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    22. Re:What, this is idiotic! by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Why don't you simply listen yourself?

      We have something _similar_ to copyrights, however it is not called copyrights.

      Only in english discussions usually they use the term 'copyright' for the european variations for the lack of a better term.

      E.g. the german term is "Urheberrecht" which translates to english to something like "authors rights" or "creators rights".

      And as I pointed out now several times the way how "creators rights" in Europe work and are applied is completely different than how 'copyrights' in the US work.

      If you don't know that I hope you are not working such a field. And yes, I'm an expert on that field as I'm working since 30 years with 'copyright' related matters. After all all my work is copyrighted, (*facepalm*).

      Have a good day, I'm not correcting american wikipedia pages ... that is a waste of time.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  35. Right for the wrong reason by trout007 · · Score: 1

    You can't take pictures of the food simply because you are in the owners property and must follow their rules.

    --
    I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    1. Re:Right for the wrong reason by Primate+Pete · · Score: 1

      So this wouldn't apply to the sample food items displayed, for example, at sushi restaurants. These items are often visible from the street. What if I stand on the sidewalk and take a picture of the food served at an outdoor cafe?

  36. Legal firm drumming up business by Kjella · · Score: 2

    After digging a bit (I read German) the basis for this foodscare is related to a "birthday train" lawsuit, in which the court found that the design elements could be copyrighted as a work of art despite its functional elements as a toy train, like a sculpture. Basically it gave "functional art" (angewandten Kunst) more of the same protections as "non-functional art" (zweckfreien Kunst). So while you won't get sued for making a hot dog, copying someone's fancy and unique cake design might land you in trouble.

    None of this will have any effect on making food pictures on social media, any more than you'll get in trouble for making a photo of a copyrighted statue. It does open up quite a few cans of worms since anything reasonably unique you create might get a quasi-design patent lasting life+70, so it's a IPR minefield for everything from furniture designers to hair dressers, but the photographers don't have much to worry about. Nobody's actually been sued over food photos and it's unlikely anyone will.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    1. Re:Legal firm drumming up business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If i bought the food, i can do whatever i wish with it.

  37. old story by behrooz0az · · Score: 2

    There is this old story about this guy who paid for the smell of kebab with sound of coins.
    I'll give the chef a picture of my money.

    --
    Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion. -- Spazmania (174582)
  38. I has been sued, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I just made a photo on a Berlin street when a homeless approached me and said that the rights of the dried piss on the pavement belonged to him, so I had to pay him.

  39. Re:A way to compete: Post a sign, "Photos Allowed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Moving to Germany. Opening a restaurant called "Super Photochef!"

    I'll be a billionaire in no time.

    Then get ravaged by taxes and become a measly multi millionaire. Damn it socialism!

  40. Copyright? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This seems weird. If I buy the "art" it's my right to do with it what I want. Whether that's taking a picture of it, of rubbing it over my nuts.

    Effectively though, the chef that does this will kill his own business. So I'm not too worried. Most restaurants are very happy with the exposure. Only those that have something to hide will enforce this.

  41. Paying them by ruir · · Score: 2

    also infringes the copyright of my wallet. Problem solved.

  42. Next step. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm going to offer everyone a hat, necklace, or other wearable item that they can customize. I'll call it Privacy through Copyright. Anytime a photo is taken of that person they can squash it by claiming copyright.

    This includes criminals who want to prevent their misdeeds from being shown on the news or other commercial channel. After all the news is also a commercial activity.

  43. Chefs like chefs, what about tailors ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't forget to ask for your tailor approval (or to pay a tax to H&M or whatever clothes you're wearing) in order to be able to legally post a picture of you online.
    And pray to God that the tailor of the person in the background does not sue you :)))

  44. Stop smiling for photos by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Funny

    Extending this logically - if someone takes a photograph of you smiling, your dentist can sue you for copyright infringement if you have any fillings that are visible in the picture. Well done, Germany. Only the English would have no fear.

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    1. Re:Stop smiling for photos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Extending this logically - if someone takes a photograph of you smiling, your dentist can sue you for copyright infringement if you have any fillings that are visible in the picture. Well done, Germany. Only the English would have no fear.

      Ah, the old "imperfect works are a personal expression and can be copyrighted, perfect works lack the requisite amount of creativity" adage. A problem coded by an experienced programmer in the single best possible manner may well not be entitled to copyright while something serving the same purpose but written by a newcomer racking his brain hard and not entirely successfully might be.

      So with the fillings.

    2. Re:Stop smiling for photos by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      What are you trying to say - that only crappy dentists would be protected by copyright? lol

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    3. Re:Stop smiling for photos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do your parents own the copyright for your face?

  45. car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is like getting sued by the car manufacturer for taking a photo of your own car! Imagine getting sued every time you took a photo of your crappy car or something, I mean its ART, its the ART OF THE CAR DESIGNER!

    *cough*

    Somebody needs to remind the Germans that no really, you guys are turning into a bunch of assholes again and that it needs to stop.

  46. Most free country. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wasn't Germany just ranked as like one of the top 5 or 10 freest nations on the planet, some 20 spots ahead of the US?

  47. What's next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People suing other people just because they wear the same clothes (image/style copyright) ?

  48. Doing this, Germany will lose... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... 90% of its annual tourism from Asia

  49. Re:A way to compete: Post a sign, "Photos Allowed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

    Nice try, but Americans pay more income tax than Germans do once you add federal and state together. Corporation taxes are also about double in the US.

    And the best thing is, even if you leave your "free" country, you still get taxed!

    It's hilarious how many members of your capitalist regime still think you're actually lucky that your country is not run for the benefit of its people. Just don't dwell on the figures, OK? Just close your eyes and pretend I never said anything.

  50. Extrapolating by GrumpySteen · · Score: 3, Informative

    I'm not familiar with German copyright law, but there are precedents in other countries that allow artists to use copyright on art that they've sold to prevent its destruction.

    If Germany grants similar rights under copyright law, that would mean that the chef could not only prevent photos from being taken, but could refuse to let the diner eat the food or even move it around on the plate since it's now copyrighted.

    1. Re:Extrapolating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      German copyright law distinguishes between two types of rights that the creator has:
      First is the "Verwertungsrecht" (right to exploitation) which includes reproduction, distribution, leasing, renting, public performance, etc.
      Then there is the inalienable "Urheberpersönlichkeitsrecht" (not sure how to translate that, Wikipedia calls it "fundamental rights") which prohibits derivative works, misattribution, defacement or destruction without the consent of the creator.

      While it could be assumed that by ordering food you get implicit consent to consume it, the same cannot be said for publication on Facebook or Instagram.

    2. Re:Extrapolating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really since the food has been ordered as food. If you order an artwork and some guy with a hole in a head smears 100lbs of butter in a corner of some room, and then you bake and sell pastry from it, you might be in for some lawsuit.

      Actually, if you replace pastry by liquor, you get this farce where there was indeed a lawsuit concerning the resulting product. Note that previous to that, one pupil of Beuys had been awarded EUR40000 in compensation when the janitor had cleaned away the rancid butter from the room.

      All this could have been avoided if the butter had not been commissioned as an artwork but as a delivery of a baking ingredient to a wall.

  51. Work for Hire by iCEBaLM · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't this be a work for hire, since you're paying for it and it's being prepared to order?

    1. Re: Work for Hire by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Best argument yet.

  52. Re:A way to compete: Post a sign, "Photos Allowed. by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 1

    So no photo's of sour crout? Win Win as far as I'm concerned

    --

    Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

  53. After I re-arrange the food? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Once I apply my creative touches to the food, then I hold the copyright?

  54. Re: A way to compete: Post a sign, "Photos Allowed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is no way that Americans are paying more taxes than Germans. Hell, I can go purchase a US Gallon of gasoline for $2.18 right now -- in Germany, gasoline is at least twice the cost. For the impaired: that extra cost is "additional taxes".

    It is not just gasoline, but everything in Germany is straddled with massive consumption taxes.

  55. What about God? by AndyKron · · Score: 1

    Then taking a picture of ANYTHING violates God's copy write? Right?

    1. Re:What about God? by ruir · · Score: 1

      I am really thinking it is causation or correlation someone that believes in imaginary friends and who is not able to write copyright properly.

  56. Unintended consequences by Primate+Pete · · Score: 2

    So if the meal is IP owned by the chef, and not transferred to me when I purchase it, then I suppose the chef has to take it back when I'm done with it....

    1. Re:Unintended consequences by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      It's a derivative work.

      In the US crapping in the entrance would then be protected as parody.

  57. I'm wondering by ChrisUrich · · Score: 1

    Hey, can I still get sued if I photograph the dump I take afterwards?

  58. Die, not Der by necro81 · · Score: 1
    I know that the Slashdot crowd (including myself) is largely peopled by native English speakers. I would even hazard that, being mostly Americans, the Slashdot crowd is majority monolingual (I have learned four others, but wouldn't consider myself fluent).

    However, being haughtily, disdainfully monolinguial is no excuse for messing up the name of the news organization you are linking to:

    According this article in Der Welt (Google translate from German), ...

    It is "Die Welt", not "Der Welt." For heaven's sake, when you click on the link, the correct name is right there on the top of the page in 48-pt font. How do you screw that up?

    In German, "der" and "die" are both articles that translate to the English "the," but they have different genders and should not be conflated. ("der" and "die" have more expanded meanings and uses than just "the", but we'll skip that for now.) It would be similar to an American referring to Donald Trump, Barack Obama, Chuck Norris, or Hulk Hogan as "she".

    1. Re:Die, not Der by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      Actually, "in der Welt" makes perfect sense in German, meaning simply "in the world". The feminine definite article "die" becomes "der" when used with the preposition "in" for this meaning.

      Of course, we're using "Die Welt" as the name of the publication, and "in" in the English sense, so the parent point still stands.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  59. Absolutely Unenforceable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is no way to enforce this. Absolutely none. A chef should be as pleased as punch when people put his creations up on the Web for all to see, even if some comments are not welcome. That's life. Life is not perfect and neither are people. I look at sites like Yelp not for the "one, perfect, critical review" but to see photos of food. I'm a visual eater, so if the food looks like the dog's breakfast, I'm giving the place a pass.

  60. Can't eat the picture; how can it be a "copy"? by defago · · Score: 1

    This application of copyright law is properly ridiculous and wouldn't stand in a court with a sensible judge.

    A definition of the word "copy" yields (New Oxford American Dictionary):
    1 a thing made to be similar or identical to another
    2 a single specimen of a particular book, record, or other publication or issue
    3 matter to be printed

    Therefore, in that context, the first definition applies. A copy of something, by definition, implies that one should be able to use it in the same ways as the original (being similar or identical).
    In the case of a dish, taking a picture cannot hence be considered a copy since I can eat the original, but not the picture (even less so when it's digital). What definition of similar can actually lead to consider that a picture (even more a digital one) is even remotely "similar" to plate with food in it no matter how beautifully arranged?

    Likewise, merely taking a picture of a building won't provide me with a roof, and how can it be a copy?

    This is somehow illustrated by Magritte's 1948 painting of a (smoking) pipe: "ceci n'est pas une pipe"
    http://tinyurl.com/owclu9e

    To conclude, it seems that everything revolving around copyright nowadays has become lightyears more surrealistic than one of the leading surrealist painters of the twentieth century.

  61. Bunch of crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All these d-bags need to go back and look at the purpose of copyright. It is to give a short term monopoly on copies of something in order to allow the creator time to make a profit and then allow the creation to go into the public domain for the public good. So, did a person taking a picture of food somehow copy the food? No, I can't really eat the photo. Did they cut into the profit somehow? Nope, again can't eat the photo and nobody is going to buy the photo. So this doesn't seem like it fits the test for what should be granted a copyright in the first place. D-bags.

  62. the obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But if you purchase the food you own it. You aren't licensing it. You are purchasing it to do with as you please. To consume, to not consume, to take home and consume later, to drop on the floor. You buy it you own it and can do what you want.

  63. Every plate is different by ITRambo · · Score: 1

    This makes no sense. If a chef can make every plate look identical and weight exactly the same based on precise quality control specifications, then they can claim copyright by filing a picture of their food and technical specs to obtain a legal copyright. It's just stupid otherwise. Cooking is an art, not a science. A "pinch" is not a technically precise measurement.

    1. Re:Every plate is different by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This makes no sense. If a chef can make every plate look identical and weight exactly the same based on precise quality control specifications, then they can claim copyright by filing a picture of their food and technical specs to obtain a legal copyright. It's just stupid otherwise. Cooking is an art, not a science. A "pinch" is not a technically precise measurement.

      Have you seen those guys? They work with pincettes, pippettes and squeeze bottles to arrange that stuff.

    2. Re:Every plate is different by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A "pinch" is not a technically precise measurement.

      http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/store/product/baker-s-dozen-13-piece-measuring-cups-and-spoons-set/1012949855?skuId=12949855&mcid=PS_googlepla_nonbrand__&adpos=1o4&creative=43742659909&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CL2G3Kq1uscCFQqSaQodDicOSg

      A set of measuring devices including a Tad, Dash, PINCH and Smidgen. The Tad is about 1/16 of a tsp.

  64. no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What kind of retard takes a picture of their food in the first place. "Durrrr, this is what I'm eating, thought someone else might be interested" No no one cares what you eat, but people now have to pretend to care so you don't think them rude.

    But if people care enough to take picture of food, guess you could then consider it art. /shrug

  65. I'm sure the Chef is fine with free publicity. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Next, fruits and vegetables will have rights..

  66. Torn between two issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm torn between the stupidity of food pictures being copyrighted and the need for taking care of mental issues in someone who take pictures of food in a restaurant.

  67. Work for HIRE!! by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
    Actually, my first thought was...Isn't this more a "work for hire"?

    I mean, you order the dish for your consumption (physically)...the copyright (if there is any which there should NOT be)...should be yours since it is a work for hire and you OWN it when you get served.

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    1. Re:Work for HIRE!! by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      In most cases, work for hire requires that there be a contract in place, signing away the rights of the content creator to the entity hiring them. No such contract exists in a typical culinary setting, unless you're suggesting it's implied, which I would suspect would be a difficult thing to argue.

      Disclaimer (in case it wasn't already obvious): IANAL.

    2. Re:Work for HIRE!! by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      There is a contract. It's called the restaurant bill.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    3. Re:Work for HIRE!! by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      A bill is not a contract. A bill is the result of a contract. It's clear that there is an implied contract between restaurants and their patrons, hence why they can drop a bill in your lap at the end of the meal even though they may not post prices in their menus or place notices around the establishment that you'll need to pay for your food once the meal is done. But suggesting that the implied contract extends into work-for-hire concepts seems a bit far-fetched to me.

      Which isn't to suggest that this law makes ANY sort of sense to me, just to be clear. I'm merely saying that I don't think we can treat this sort of thing as work-for-hire.

    4. Re:Work for HIRE!! by cayenne8 · · Score: 2

      A bill is not a contract. A bill is the result of a contract. It's clear that there is an implied contract between restaurants and their patrons, hence why they can drop a bill in your lap at the end of the meal even though they may not post prices in their menus or place notices around the establishment that you'll need to pay for your food once the meal is done. But suggesting that the implied contract extends into work-for-hire concepts seems a bit far-fetched to me.

      I think it *is* a work for hire. They fix the food...and serve it to you, then you are free to use it as you please...to eat it, to throw it on the floor, you can encase it in carbonite and hang it on the wall as a trophy.

      I mean, I can't believe anyone would begin to think that they are licensing the food to you, and that you are not free to reproduce it at will in your own kitchen, or even make it yourself for sale. Hell, if you wanted, you could resell the original dish.

      If it were otherwise, THEN I'd think there would have to be a more restrictive contract in place upon ordering.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    5. Re:Work for HIRE!! by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      The work for hire copyright bullshit only exists in the states.

      Without a written contract that explicitly transfers "using rights (your copyright)" the "moral rights" of the creator (which includes his right to use etc.) are always with the creator (this is basically true in the rest of the world outside of the USA, with a few exceptions).

      And I really doubt you want to pay for every Burger you buy an additional $10000 to $100000 fee to be the "sole owner of the 'copyright'" on said Burger.

      I make software for a living. Every software I wrote so far is _copyrighted_ by _me_, and the companies I worked for (actually only some) have an exclusive license to _use_ the software and _create derived works_ , but they don't have the copyright.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    6. Re:Work for HIRE!! by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Facepalm.

      A bill is not a contract.

      *IF* there is a contract, then it consists of:
      1) the ordering (which is a declaration of "will"), for a certain price
      2) accepting the order (which is again a declaration of will), for a certain price, which matches the price above
      3) delivering the order
      4) accepting the delivery

      That was the contract. The bill is the "request for payment" of the "result" of this contract.

      Law is different in various countries, especially the interpretation how many "declarations of will" need to be involved.

      In a marriage btw. it is FOUR declarations, not two.

      As you see: the steps 1) to 4) don't include anything about copyright transfer or authorization to _use_ the copyrighted material in any further way besides its "intent".

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    7. Re:Work for HIRE!! by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      I think it *is* a work for hire. They fix the food...and serve it to you, then you are free to use it as you please...to eat it, to throw it on the floor, you can encase it in carbonite and hang it on the wall as a trophy.
      the law in your country may say so.

      The law in my country says the opposite. So shut up? Or give an oppinion that is more personal and not a false interpretation/application of _your_ laws on _our_ country?

      We are not talking here about "reproducing the food" but about distributing photos of some other persons work!!

      And yes: if you completely copy the food of another restaurant in yours you can start praying they don't figure. Don't you get how retarded your idea is that a dish is not copyrighted?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    8. Re:Work for HIRE!! by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      I think it *is* a work for hire. They fix the food...and serve it to you, then you are free to use it as you please...to eat it, to throw it on the floor, you can encase it in carbonite and hang it on the wall as a trophy.

      That's a separate issue. There's no question that they sold goods to you. What's at question is whether the presentation of the goods is done as a work-for-hire, since apparently it's copyrightable.

    9. Re:Work for HIRE!! by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Then your law is fucked up. See, photographs require light. If you take a photograph indoors you are taking a photograph of my work. I work in a light bulb factory. We make the light that lets you take a picture. So pay me, bitches. See how stupid this line of thought gets?

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    10. Re:Work for HIRE!! by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      IANAL but if I'm going to shove food in my mouth and digest it, at some point that food belongs to me. Now you can argue that it only becomes mine at the moment the bill is paid, but I can argue it's mine the moment it's set on my table. Otherwise you could have "authors" reaching down my throat into my stomach to retrieve their "work" if they suddenly decide their "work" was too precious to sell to me or they want to renege on the deal. The fact that payment is given after the meal doesn't change the fact that the meal is mine the moment it's on the table. So if I take a picture of it on the table, I'm taking a picture of my stuff which I purchased.

      Or are we going to start arguing that restaurants "license" their food?

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    11. Re:Work for HIRE!! by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      As I pointed out several times: taking the fotos is legal. Publishing them without consent is a copyright infringement.

      See, how sane the law is and how insane your conclusions are?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    12. Re:Work for HIRE!! by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      The work for hire copyright bullshit only exists in the states.

      And...slashdot is a US centric website, and has been since its inception...so, get over yourself.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  68. That's exactly why it's (c)able by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    "Cooking is an art"

    That's *exactly* why presentation is copyrightable. It's not the science part, but the art and skill used to assemble the individualized work. You can't reproduce a photo of a painting, or a photo of a sculpture, or (in some cases) even a building. Why would you think food is any different?

    [note: (c) is out of control, but the arguments on the face of it are valid - even if the underlying premise is bad]

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  69. Can you eat it? by operagost · · Score: 1

    Can you eat a picture of food? I'm not understanding.

    See, if I make a copy of a sound file or a movie, I can give it to someone and they can listen to it or watch it. That's what media is for: listening or watching.

    Isn't food for eating? Is there a large contingent of anorexic foodies who like to buy pretty food, then just look at it?

    Apparently, in Germany, if I take a picture of my BMW and post it, BMW can sue me for copyright infringement... although you might believe the i8 is a work of art, I think you're supposed to drive it.

    --

    Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    1. Re:Can you eat it? by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Wai,t you mean a picture of something is not the same as having that thing? That there is an inherent difference between a physical object in this world and an image captured at a particular time and perspective that is interpreted by the viewer? It's starting to sound like photography is an art.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  70. I just sneezed on a pane of glass by ihtoit · · Score: 1

    wanna claim that as well?

    --
    Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
  71. Germany can blow me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...

  72. This sign idea is great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The idea of letting chefs/restaurants put up signs disallowing photos is a great one, at least: it tells you in plain language to avoid their food, as their motives are all laid out for you before you even place your order. I know I would rather eat in a place that isn't ashamed, afraid, or self-important enough to think that their work isn't deserving of public scrutiny.

  73. Taking Pictures of People... by pubwvj · · Score: 1

    Taking pictures of people infringes on the implicit copyright by their parents on that gene sequence which created that phenotype. You need to not just blur out the faces but the entire Chef, all of the German nuts in government, etc. Wouldn't want to upset their parents.

    1. Re:Taking Pictures of People... by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      It's already been determined that individuals cannot copyright or patent genes, only Monsanto is allowed to do that.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    2. Re:Taking Pictures of People... by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      No, taking pictures of people (and publishing them) is not a copyright violation (as creating the child was not an act of will nor any art or craftsmanship), it is a violation of privacy rights (of the people on the picture) ... which you seem not to have in the states.

      Note: the important point is publishing not taking the photo.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    3. Re:Taking Pictures of People... by pubwvj · · Score: 1

      It was a joke. I'm sorry you lost your sense of humor. Here, I'll help you look for it...

  74. Re:A way to compete: Post a sign, "Photos Allowed. by abies · · Score: 1

    Can you give some specific numbers? I have paid taxes in Germany and I really doubt you are right. We should count:
    - net pay compared to total employer gross cost for employee (Germany, like many other countries, define gross salary as some random number and then require employer to pay taxes on top of it, so they are invisible to employee); this includes not only income tax, but pension tax, church tax, let's help poor east Germans tax, medical tax, accidents tax, job protection tax, sick pay tax, maternity tak, insolvency tax (these are all taxes, no things you 'buy' from your salary)
    - then take goods taxes in account (VAT, sales tax, alcohol tax, gasoline tax etc) to find out what percent of the money reaches seller of goods

    Not sure about exact net pay - but I think it ends up being around 50% of employer cost after you take everything into account (I'm talking about IT-level salaries, not McDonalds pay, single person, no children). So, from 5000 EUR spent by employer, you end up with 2500 EUR cash.

    Then you got to the shop and you pay 19% VAT on everything. This ends up being 16% tax if you count it right way. So, from your 2500 EUR spent in shops, 400 ends up being immediately taxed. Rest is more complicated, we can assume it is already purchasing power.

    So, it is roughly 2100 EUR out of 5000 EUR spent by employer. This comes to around 58% effective tax for private people, earning reasonable (but not extravagant) salaries. It will be probably in range of 55% for average salary.

    Can you now do similar computation for your 'free' country?

  75. THEN... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If that is the case, then taking a picture of me infringes on my copyright.

    I decide how I look, my clothes, hairstyle, etc. etc.

  76. Re: A way to compete: Post a sign, "Photos Allowed by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

    Our cars have about twice the mileage, so that's okay.

    --
    "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
  77. Re:Work for Hire! by jimmifett · · Score: 1

    This is obviously a work for hire. I am paying for food to eat, it is mine. The food is not licensed to me for the period of my consumption. All rights to the food on my plate belong to myself and my digestive tract.

  78. You own 50% by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It was a work done on commission for a price by the customer. You own 50% publicity rights.

  79. Re:A way to compete: Post a sign, "Photos Allowed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bullshit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

    USA: 26.9%
    Germany: 40.6%

    Now show me *your* numbers and explain to me why measuring taxation relative to the value of goods and services produced by a country doesn't make sense to you, but does to economists.

  80. A Workaround... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Take a photo after you're done with it, and post it on ratemypoo.com (NSFW)

  81. You made this? I made this! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Suing you for that PB&J Sandwich you made. Looks just like the one I made!

  82. You can't infringe on my dance! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just the way I move is a part of how I express myself. My locomotion, every stationary pose, every facial expression, is part of a performance piece. Any photos of me without my express written consent are a copyright violation!

  83. Silly season in Germany - some clarifications by Hans+Adler · · Score: 1

    The occasion for this article was *not* an actual court case. Rather, in the silly season another publication (Finanztest) had re-heated a topic that had been widely discussed before the summer. A pensioner who could not chew had photographed his pureed meals, and someone else had published the photos on a Facebook page whose name translates as "Jürgen takes photos of his meals". Attempts of the nursing home to stifle this obviously backfired. (The pensioner didn't feel treated badly anyway. He just wanted to show other people what it is like when you can only eat pureed food for the rest of your life.)

    To make the semblance of a story out of this, Finanztest asked a lawyer whether there is actually any legal hold against people taking photos of the food they are served. And the lawyer said what lawyers everywhere would have said: That yes, theoretically, a very careful composition in a high-class restaurant might be considered a work of art, and thus subject to copyright. However, given that a German court recently decided that a certain porn video did not have copyright protection because someone had merely pointed a camera at a couple having intercourse, with no apparent art, acting or composition involved whatsoever, there seems to be no chance that anyone will ever convince a German judge that some typical fast food is subject to copyright.

    As the silly season wasn't quite over yet, Die Welt took up this stupid topic and added another possible reason why taking photos of food might be illegal in some cases. It appears that several years ago(!) an innkeeper in Berlin had posted the following notice (translated from German): "Please do not instagram the food here in this restaurant. (And not this notice, either.)" This was promptly tweeted; possibly as a guerrilla advertising campaign. Such a notice would probably be considered binding by a German court as it does not seem to go beyond reasonable exercise of the innkeeper's property rights. But of course this has never been tested, either, because Germans don't go to court over photos of food in restaurants any more than people elsewhere.

  84. Time to stand up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's time to stand up and get rid of this nonsense.
    IP rights have not bettered our lives and have stifled creativity.
    The only people that really benefit from this and having extended copyrights are the Wealthy and their Lawyers.

  85. Re:A way to compete: Post a sign, "Photos Allowed. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

    Well, if you indeed live in germany you should get some facts straight:

    - income tax, right
    - pension tax, not a tax, it is savings for your pension ... which is taxed later
    - church tax, quit the church, nothing to pay then
    - let's help poor east Germans tax, right
    - medical tax, that is not a tax but an insurance
    - accidents tax, that is not a tax but an insurance
    - job protection tax, does not exist
    - sick pay tax, does not exist
    - maternity take (tax), does not exist
    - insolvency tax, does not exist

    No idea where/why you invented those taxes ... so three of your claims where right ... wow.

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  86. Re:A way to compete: Post a sign, "Photos Allowed. by abies · · Score: 2

    I do not live in Germany currently, used to live there.
    Regarding difference between tax and insurance - as long as it is mandatory, enforced by government and percentage your income, it is a tax in my book, regardless of how government might want to call it. If it would be medical 'insurance' then it would be a lump sum depending on what service you are getting, not percentage of your salary.
    As for the rest, please see here
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
    Please remember I'm talking about salary taxes as seen from the side of employer. Not showing them on employee payroll does not mean they do not exist. Otherwise you can just look at net salary and pretend taxes do not exist.

    You are right about is possibility of getting out of church tax. Same way, in US you can probably move to state without a VAT/sales tax/whatever. I was comparing worst case scenario (this is why I took example of Lohnsteurklasse I instead of for example unemployed single mother of three).

  87. Re:A way to compete: Post a sign, "Photos Allowed. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

    Insurrances are not taxes, you can turn that however you want.

    For a medical insurance you ... and the rest of the public, perhaps that is the reason why you want to call it a tax? ... you get your medical bills payed, Actually in most cases people have not to take care about hat as the medical services automatically bills your insurance. Hence the name.

    If you want a "lump sum depending on what service you are getting" medical insurance you are free to join such a one if your earnings are above roughly 3500 Euro/month or if you are self employed or if you simply get an "additional" insurance.

    Same for "pension insurance" and "unemployment insurance".

    The idea that an insurance only can be voluntary and not be mandatory, otherwise it would be a tax, is completely retarded. Look at your car insurance.

    Perhaps look at scandinavian countries: there they don't have a medical insurance but truly pay it with taxes.

    Please: stop copying your retarded american how the world "should work views" on countries that clearly show the world works different.

    It makes completely sense for an european that the lower income classes pay less for health insurance and gain the exact same service. Hence it is a percentage of the wage you pay (capped at roughly 500 Euro, so if you earn really a lot of money it is still only 500 Euro).

    Why the fuck do you think (sorry for my wording but attitudes like yours make me angry) should a person only earning 1000 Euro also pay 500 health insurance only to be legible to get a heart transplant?

    And why should "welfare" be obliged to pay your bills when you are old just because you don't pay the mandatory pension "tax"? Rofl ...

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  88. Re:A way to compete: Post a sign, "Photos Allowed. by abies · · Score: 1

    The idea that an insurance only can be voluntary and not be mandatory, otherwise it would be a tax, is completely retarded. Look at your car insurance.

    If you would need to pay for car insurance 5% of your salary, regardless of how many cars you have (including none), yes, I would call it a tax.

    Anyway, discussion was about how much of your salary is taken by government compared to what your employer has to spend. It really doesn't matter if we call it tax, insurance, mandatory payment, protection racket, or whatever.

    And BTW, I'm European as well and I'm not saying that government taking percentage of salary (as oppose to lump sum) for public health service is bad thing. I'm just calling it a tax, because there is no way to opt out and it meets all definition of word tax.
    If you think that health insurance etc is not tax, be sure to correct wikipedia entry
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

  89. I bet burger chains like McDonalds are behind it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When was the last time you purchased a burger at McDonalds that even vaguely resembled the burgers on their posters. They're probably trying to sink all competing photos showing up their false advertising.

  90. solution to paparazzi by nazsco · · Score: 1

    forget food.

    do your own clothes or hat or even hairdo. and sue everyone that ever takes apic of your person!

    Facebook helping distribute said pic? you just got your retirement!

  91. Re:A way to compete: Post a sign, "Photos Allowed. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

    A tax goes to the government, via the collection office.

    An insurance goes to the relevant institutions (and reduces your tax payment as it belongs to "spendings").

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  92. Only in frikkin Germany.. by doccus · · Score: 1

    Er.. said it all in the byline.. Only in Germany...

    1. Re:Only in frikkin Germany.. by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Only not just in Germany. Well, according to the wife, who when I told her about this said 2that makes sense, and I'd thought that myself at restaurants". (Certainly she's been food photographing for years, where I'm just not interested.) So there's at least one other non-German who thinks it's a reasonable idea.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  93. What? Now available in German? Cool! by eric_harris_76 · · Score: 1

    There's a German-language edition of The Onion?

    --
    There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
  94. But can you photograph the end result? by Swave+An+deBwoner · · Score: 1

    Fine. I can't take a picture of the food that was served to me.

    But I can post the result after my digestive system has recast the original thereby creating a derivative work, right? That should make for a nice addition to any restaurant review.

  95. Newspaper is called "Die Welt" by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

    Newspaper is called "Die Welt", OP should fix that in the article.

  96. Uh oh... by iq145 · · Score: 1

    i'm in trouble now :-)