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Amazon Work-Life Balance Defender: Prior Employer Nearly Killed Me and My Team
theodp writes: New York Times Public Editor Margaret Sullivan questions whether her paper's portrayal of Amazon's brutal workplace was on target, citing a long, passionate response in disagreement from Nick Ciubotariu, a head of infrastructure development at Amazon. Interestingly, Ciubotariu — whose take on Amazon's work-life balance ("I've never worked a single weekend when I didn't want to") was used as Exhibit A by CEO Jeff Bezos to refute the NYT's report — wrote last December of regretting his role as an enabler of his team's "Death March" at a former employer (perhaps Microsoft, judging by Ciubotariu's LinkedIn profile and his essay's HiPo and Vegas references). "I asked if there were any questions," wrote Ciubotariu of a team meeting. "Nadia, one of my Engineers, had one: 'Nick, when will this finally end?' As I looked around the room, I saw 9 completely broken human beings. We had been working over 100 hours a week for the past 2 months. Two of my Engineers had tears on their faces. I did my best to keep from completely breaking down myself. With my voice choking, I looked at everyone, and said: 'This ends right now'." Ciubotariu added, "I hope they can forgive me for being an enabler of their death march, however unwilling, and that I ultimately didn't do enough to stop it. As a 'reward' for all this, I calibrated #1 overall in my organization, and received yet another HiPo nomination and induction, at the cost of a shattered family life, my health, and a broken team. I don't think I ever felt worse in my entire career. If I could give it all back, I would, in an instant, no questions asked. Physically and mentally, I took about a year to heal."
The media is treating this like it's a global issue at amazon. It maybe a certain part of the company. For example, Quicken Loans is considered one of the top employers in Michigan. They always win "best place to work" and other ridiculous things. It's widely known that in most departments, they're fine. However, I've worked with several former programmers and they all say it's horrible, understaffed and they insist on insane hours. There's no time to test code, etc. If the programmers all got together and reported to the media with examples, then we'd see a story like Amazons about Quicken Loans. Instead, the rest of the company's great reviews make it sound like a swell place to be.
It's possible amazon has a problem in tech or another department but the people in the warehouse are treated fine. It may not be a global problem. Also, most of the people who say it's great are MANAGERS at amazon. What about the rank and file!
If anyone buys page to defend himself or his company on pages of NYT, in my mind he is guilty.
So...they should increase the H1b's?
[INSERT Sarcastic Dodge Tomato GIF Here]
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Sounds like socialism to me!
I expect my team to work at least 200 hours a week, sometimes more
From glassdoor, it does seem like there's a troubling amount of people complaining about work-life balance, although not totally out of line with other tech companies:
http://www.glassdoor.com/Revie...
I really did
FTFS:
"I've never worked a single weekend when I didn't want to"
Employee: "I wanted to work this weekend. I really did"
Interviewer: "Oh, that's good. Why did you want to work this weekend?"
Employee: "Cuz they'd fire my ass otherwise, doofus!"
'nuff said. Sure, some management type work weekends to "set an example" but otherwise I don't buy it.
I was a mid-level IT dept manager for a major newspaper. I was never specifically asked to work overtime, but I often did so because it was my responsibility to ensure production readiness. So yeah, I chose to work, but to say I "wanted to" would be stretching it.
Peace,...
Your idea of the new york times is a few years behind the curve.
and AFTER they make bank say "i shouldn't have" (wiki link). in the same way, Nick took the money. if he Gives It All Back, then we're cool.
No they don't "require" they "encourage" you to work that weekend. And if you don't work that weekend along with all the other things that is "encouraged" to be a good amazonian then you will never be able to move up and will be targeted for "improvement" and eventually fired. But don't worry a H1b will be happy to do your job for less.
Your best defense of predatory employment practices is that you were a bigger asshole in a past company. LIterally fuck the hell off you sorry excuse for a human being!
Dear Nick,
I'm very happy to learn that you, the Head of Infrastructure Development at Amazon, have good working conditions at Amazon, but your opinion is absolutely irrelevant, since people being pressured at Amazon are not developers, but people doing physical work.
It's easy to defend your job when you have a comfortable position, but it's also very disrespectful towards people who do *real* manual work, who are forced to follow a fast pace and who are also badly paid.
I had countless death marches in my previous jobs (in videogames), and I know very well how it destroys people (and it took me more than one year to recover).
But death marches cannot compare to physical repetitive fast-pacing tasks.
The body suffers but also questions arise, because the mind is completely available.
As a software engineer, my minds is always busy, so I don't have doubts when I work.
If I had a manual work, I would have plenty of time to wonder why I do a job that I dislike.
I have experienced the Stockholm syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... in a few jobs, where I believed it was my duty to sacrifice myself for the company, so I understand people wanting to show that they can perform better than others.
It's totally normal !
But please, Nick, don't compare your job to the mindless harassing jobs in Amazon.
Just because there are worse places to work doesn't make Amazon a good place to work.
Manager passionately disagrees with complaints of managers abusing staff, did I get that right?
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Seriously I have no sympathy for people that allow themselves to be walked all over, then complain about how their employer destroyed their life.
Y'all just need to grow a pair and remember that employment is a business contract between equals. Next time your employer asks you to do something unfair such as donate a bunch of unpaid overtime or work extremely excessive hours, just fucking say NO. Otherwise just shut up and take it like the bitches you have actively chosen to turn yourselves into.
... is that this guy admits to being completely unqualified to actually comment on what an appropriate work:life balance actually is.
Here's an interesting case for unionization in tech:
https://michaelochurch.wordpre...
Discuss.
The so called rebuttal by Nick Ciubotariu from a few days ago, reeks of disingenuousness and playing games with semantics.
I’ve never worked a single weekend when I didn’t want to. No one tells me to work nights.:
This may very well be true. BUT, what DOES happen, in almost every company, is that managers create enormous workloads with ridiculously short deadlines, and it is physically impossible to get the work done, on time, unless you work 100 hours a week. So, fearing a bad performance review for not getting their work done and for not being a "team player" who is willing to "do whatever ti takes", people take it upon themselves to "voluntarily" work long hours.
There is no “culling of the staff” annually. That’s just not true. No one would be here if that actually took place and it was a thing"
Even with Amazon's terrible reputation, how many tens of thousands of resumes do they get every year?
I’ve never seen anyone cry. And if that was truly the environment, that’s just wrong, and certainly not something we encourage. In today’s Amazon, management and HR would take care of that in an instant.
Major lulz for this one. How many tens of thousands of people, working at thousands of different companies, have filed lawsuits over things like sexual harassment, gender discrimination and racial discrimination? And in 99% of those cases, the lasuit only came about because the person went to HR and was either ignored or HR took their managers side. In any company, HR is the most completely useless department.
I won’t discuss Organizational Level Ranking. I will dispute – vehemently so – the assertion that “You learn how to diplomatically throw people under the bus”. We don’t have time to do that here, or to teach people that:
More word play. Technically, you don't actually instruct people to do that. But your policies encourage people to do exactly that. It doesn't take long for people to figure out how to sabotage their co-workers for their own benefit. And since it's impossible for you to know everything that goes on with every employee in the entire company, or even a tiny percentage of them, claiming that this behavior doesn't exist is just plain stupid and dishonest.
Lockheed Martin does the same thing. Constantly. There are actually 5 hour 'gate' periods beyond 40 that is expected to be unpaid regardless of OT appproval beyond 45. Typically OT isn't paid unless you are going over 80 that week and only if "the program still has overhead". If you don't follow the group you get lower performance ratings regardless if you perform 5x real work vs others. Sleeping bags and such are common place beyond SCIFs because they can't be seen.
I've seen so many two-minutes hates in the last few years that I don't know who to believe.
This is about saying how bad working conditions are at Amazon, Google, Apple and all the "big" companies, in an attempt to FORCE them into a union. The government will start screwing with them to get them into a union. Once unionized, all that millions in campaign donations will filter back into the hands of greedy politicians.
This is not new for tech companies, they will drive you and drive you.
Without regulations regarding hours worked and after hours email, phone, etc it will never change.
Executive will not change as long as they can cut staffing and increase their pay.
Basic question: Does Amazon have stack ranking as official policy, or does it not? Or is it just in certain departments?
> citing a long, passionate response in disagreement from Nick Ciubotariu, a head of infrastructure development at Amazon. Interestingly, Ciubotariu — whose take on Amazon's work-life balance ("I've never worked a single weekend when I didn't want to")
> head of infrastructure development
> head
> ("I've never worked a single weekend when I didn't want to"
> head
> head
> work-life balance
Big difference between being a grunt on low wage but a life outside of work to look forward to and being a well-compensated "I'd die for my company" manager.
Total stack rank shop. Google does it too, not so widely known. Slightly watered down calibration system compared to Mordorsoft, but just as destructive.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
In any company, HR is the most completely useless department.
Anybody who has worked in tech for more than a month knows that HR is just the mindless, obedient enforcement arm of management, and not even top management at that. Never, ever share your issues with HR.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
The guy is "Head of Infrastructure Development, Amazon.com Search Experience (SX)". Would you expect a guy in that position to mingle with the plebe?
Everything he says is correct - from the little he knows about the plebe who work for him. And trust me on that: he knows VERY little.
Starting Director-level, people live in the clouds (no pun intended) and to them, it's like watching the ground from an airplane: you see dots instead of people and no details about them.
And of course he's defending the hand that feeds them, and it's likely that hand feeds him a LOT.
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
Who fought for the 40 hour work week?
Who fought for vacation time?
Who fought for benefits, like health insurance?
UNIONS
We have all participated in the demonization of unions and the laws destroying worker rights. Now we are reaping what has been sown.
"Kids, if you think these are bad work schedules, try working in the oil industry and deploying to Alaska or an oil derrick."
Got some news for you, since you obviously haven't done this kind of work.
60 hour weeks. You stay on-rig for 6 months, and you're off for 6 months. You get about $45-60K.
Try again when you've actually done the job. 6 months here in the Gulf of Mexico off Corpus Christi.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
that a person can be worked to death
http://www.phillymag.com/busin...
no matter how good it is, it is human nature always wants to make things better
I have done this kind of work actually. I've basically lived at the office sometimes for weeks on end. Going home every other day or just going home to sleep and shower. There's a little motel near the office building and I've gone there more than a few times just because I can't deal with it. I've had people in sleeping bags in the office a few times.
Let us be adults here for a moment. Adults can make their own choices. If you don't want to work for the company... Don't. No one is forcing you to do it. Quit. No one will blame you. It just wasn't for you. Some people can hack it in some industries and some people cannot. If you can't hack it... Leave.
As to pay... the Amazon people are well paid.
Amazon has already addressed this... the people we're talking about exist in a competitive work environment. If Amazon is not offering a competitive wage and people don't want to work for amazon... then they can go work for someone else.
This is high demand labor. They can work wherever they want.
The NYTs wants to fight the Washington Post. I'm quite certain this is just GAME ON. Why they think they can win a fight like that is beyond me but who knows with these people.
The NYTs has been shedding credibility, market share, and copious amounts of money for decades. Good luck.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
I’ve never worked a single weekend when I didn’t want to. No one tells me to work nights
He's an executive, right? Of course he does as he damned well pleases. What about the people who do the actual work?
I’ve never seen anyone cry.
Either they're too afraid of him to let him see them do it, or you never see him at all.
A former boss of mine is now an exec at Amazon. Treated people like machines back then, so I can see why she succeeded so well there.
My current boss is an interesting contrast, he has explicitly told people to not work nights and weekends unless on-call or there's a truly exceptional situation.
You have zero clue about the benefits package, I see.
It beats just about any other medical coverage you can possibly get, until you start making more than a million bucks a year.
And all your expenses are typically paid on-rig anyways.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
In any company, HR is the most completely useless department.
Anybody who has worked in tech for more than a month knows that HR is just the mindless, obedient enforcement arm of management, and not even top management at that. Never, ever share your issues with HR.
In decent societies, HR is actually there to enforce employee protection and heaalth and safety laws and to protect the staff from the worst abuses of upper management. Since this is akin to socialism, it's no wonder all the Americans on slashdot hate them so much.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
There is no “culling of the staff” annually. That’s just not true. No one would be here if that actually took place and it was a thing"
Even with Amazon's terrible reputation, how many tens of thousands of resumes do they get every year?
When people get sick of the horrible working conditions and leave to find a better job on their own, you don't need to 'cull the staff.' Or, put better, you're constantly culling but calling it by another name.
In decent societies, HR is actually there to enforce employee protection and heaalth and safety laws and to protect the staff from the worst abuses of upper management. Since this is akin to socialism, it's no wonder all the Americans on slashdot hate them so much.
Americans hate HR because of what HR does, not because of what HR is supposed to do.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.