Malaysia Blocking Websites Based On Political Content

An anonymous reader writes: A few days ago Slashdot carried a piece of news from Malaysia whereby [news] websites based in Malaysia must be registered. Now comes the news that Malaysia is actively blocking websites which carry political opinion contrary to those of the ruling elite. Granted, Malaysia is no US of A nor Europe, but the world must understand that Malaysia is the only country in the world where racial apartheid laws are still being actively practiced — and have received endorsement from the ruling elite which has controlled Malaysia for the past 58 years. (Wikipedia lists some other candidates for modern-day apartheid in its entry on Contemporary segregation.)

Comments

Who's down with TPP (All the homies)

[fustakrakich]

Gotta make Malaysia look all nice and 'stuff'.. Or was that Burma?

Why link..

[Anonymous Coward]

To a news article where you have to "answer a question" to see it. There must be dozens of reputable news sites with the story and you link to an unknown "bignewsnetwork"? Does slashdot even have anyone checking submissions?

Re:Why link..

[Zontar The Mindless]

It's mentioned here: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-...

Re:Small correction

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't be such a anti-semite. Going against the state sanctioned narrative supporting Israel and the white genocide will only get moded down.

You were very wise to post anonymously.

Re:Small correction

[matria]

What constitutional racism does Israel have? Its Declaration of Independence and the Basic Laws that act as its constitution are very clear that any kind of racial or religious discrimination is illegal. There are Arabs in the government. There are Arabs on the Supreme Court. There are Arab doctors, professors, business owners, university students, high-tech employees. On the other hand, there are not only no Jews living in Jordan, but by law it is a captial offense to sell property to a Jew. There is constitutional racism.

Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[DNS-and-BIND]

If Malaysia practices apartheid, why is the civilized world not boycotting, divesting from, and sanctioning this country? This is what happens to countries that practice apartheid. It worked on South Africa and it can work again on Malaysia.

I wasn't even aware of this until I read the summary, and I read a lot of international news.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[jblues]

The difference is that in South Africa, European colonists practiced apartheid against the older indigenous racial group. In the case of Malaysia, the laws favor the Malay people and their culture, who have been there for thousands of years, against ethnic Indian and Chinese who have only been there for a mere few hundred. Arguably Malaysia is not the only country with such apartheid cultural views that go all the way to being ratified in one law or another.

Rather than a cultural stir-fry a melting-pot is expected (this reminds me of Australia, in some ways). For example its for easy to convert to the predominant religion of the Malay people (Islam), while its difficult to convert away from Islam to another religion like Buddhism, Hinduism or Christianity. So if an ethnic Chinese or Indian wishes to marry a Malay, they are expected to convert to Islam, and its not allowed for the Malay to convert to the religion of their spouse.

On the other hand in Malaysia (and other SE Asian countries) there does seem to be a lot of general tolerance, peace and understanding between people of different cultural backgrounds. Many, religious holidays (not just one predominant group's) are celebrated, for example.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[Anonymous Coward]

"while its difficult to convert away from Islam to another religion..."

It's more than difficult, it's illegal. Converting away from Islam in Malaysia is punishable by life in prison.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[jblues]

That is not true. A person wishing to leave Islam in Malaysia may apply for a certificate to do so from the Shariah courts - this is a legal right. In practice attempting to obtain such a certificate can lead to bureaucracy, red-tape and persecution. But a person can't be legally imprisoned for desiring to renounce Islam.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[h33t l4x0r]

For the same reason we don't boycott China for their suicide Foxconn labor exports. We need cheap shit.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not apartheid, just institutionalized racial discrimination. For example:

• Non-bumiputra (eg. Indians, Chinese, whites) are excluded from leadership positions in the military, police and government
• Some businesses are required to have bumiputra sit on their board of directors; at least 30% bumiputra ownership is required to list on the Kuala Lumpur stock exchange
• University places and elite schools are reserved for bumiputra
• Government projects accept tenders only from bumiputra-owned companies
• Dissent against and negative discussion of the above policies is regarded as sedition

In many cases, the authorities don't even bother with justification and simply "nationalize" property and businesses and regift them to bumiputra to promote racial economic equality. Most of these go to people owed political favours.

There are workarounds. For example, they can hire an Ali Baba to run a shell company.

Many Chinese, in particular, very much want better education than they are allowed to have and fund their own private school system (where Mandarin+English+Malay are taught). Tamils from India and Sri Lanka also have their own school network. Many end up emigrating anyway to Australia/UK/NZ because they want to get their kids into decent universities.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[dbIII]

The Saudis are also infamous for treating their workers from other places very badly.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[phayes]

That is a lie as anyone with any experience with Malaysia knows.

Half a century ago it was a "Legal right" for black men to vote & yet we all know that the entrenched power in southern states refused to respect it. Stop pretending that Malaysia respects the rights of it's minorities and apply real reform to sanction the abuses.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[jblues]

That is a lie as anyone with any experience with Malaysia knows.

I lived in Malaysia for a few years, and openly opposed racial and cultural discrimination, even though expressing such views could be dangerous. I still live nearby in another part of SE Asia.

Half a century ago it was a "Legal right" for black men to vote & yet we all know that the entrenched power in southern states refused to respect it.

And the solution to that injustice was to start with the facts: The legal right was there. But there were thousands of other problems to solve before it could mean something. Many of those problems have been solved, and some yet remain. Its a continuum in any part of the world. Newly industrialized nations have somewhat further to go of course.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[phayes]

Your claimed knowledge & experience of Malaysia should have led you to denouncing their apartheid & discrimination of minorities yet you attempted to minimize the indefensible with half truths. The fact is that fiction of having rights when the government refuses to respect them is worse than having no rights at all as it crushes the hopes of those who were deluded by the lie.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[udippel]

Alas, wrong. But you couldn't necessarily know.
The Malays have not been lving there for thousands of years, 90 % are migrants from other places as well, from the overcrowded Malayan Archipelago, driving out the native population ('Orang Asli'), who are in these days more often that not forcibly converted to Islam.

Yes, you fell for the usual official propaganda, which is shown by your second last sentence. That's the official formulation. Don't forget that in 1969 close to 2000 people were slaughtered in a large inter-ethnic unrest. The previous dean of the Institute 'ATMA' (Malay and Islamic Civilisation) at the National University of Malaysia formulated it more correctly: "Malaysia is a country in stable tension".

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[udippel]

You are objectively incorrect. I don't have to pull out the resources, everyone can do on her own. There are camps where people who desire to leave the Islamic religion are interned for weeks, and months. They are called 're-education camps' where some Imam tries to convince them of the beauty of the religion.
True, it is not life imprisonment, but against basic western understanding.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[itchybrain]

How's that strategy working in North Korea, Iran, etc.?

The collateral of such a strategy puts a heavy toll on the citizens. I would rather prefer that countries freeze assets of officials and restrict their movements internationally.

By the way, I am in agreement that international communities can help persuade such countries to enact fairer policies.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[jblues]

I was simply pointing out the law, not saying I agreed in any way with a flawed execution, or with the law itself. I thought this would've been obvious. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but even in countries with a high human development index, the law is not always fair and upheld flawlessly, let alone in newly industrialized nation like Malaysia, which is on the good side of the middle.. The country where I live now is lower down, but that's another story.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[jblues]

Ah right, I stand corrected on that one.

It appears that the Orung Asli people that you refer to are in fact 18 different ethnic/tribal groups. I live in the Philippines now - a nation consisting of 7200 islands, so there are many tribes here too. One such group are the Negritos who are related to the Semang Orung Asli (according to wikipedia). Sadly they are also persecuted here. Life expectancy at birth is just 27 years vs the national average of 70.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[GameboyRMH]

Was just going to say this. Similar to the reason Singapore gets a free pass on being a faux-democratic authoritarian dictatorship - its just too nice of a place for businesses.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[ThatsMyNick]

And Israel. We give them weapons and money instead, because they are our partners.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[currently_awake]

America ignores human rights when choosing allies. Maybe you should fix that?

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[NicBenjamin]

Partly because it's not Apartheid. The only state that is anything nearly as bananas legally as Apartheid* is Israel, and the Israelis actually allow quite a bit of inter-communal contact if you were lucky enough to be on their side of the border after the war of '48. The tricky bits come in the Occupied territories, where the Israelis make an argument that works fine for a few years. If you're militarily occupying another country you do get to run things, and they don't get to vote, but OTOH if it's lasting 50 years and you still can't/won't create a puppet government to govern things like zoning and water rights it's kinda hard to believe that you're actually doing this shit because you have to.

In Malaysia it really isn't apartheid in any meaningful sense of the term, because they don't stop all Chinese or Indians from doing much of anything. A Chinese kid can get into any university save one. He can (in theory) get almost any job. He is just much less likely to pull that shit off then a similarly qualified Malay, because Malaysian Affirmative Action works exactly like Conservatives think American Affirmative Action works. The other major issue for religious minorities is that the islamic Courts can be remarkably dickish. One renowned ethnic Indian athlete was declared Muslim on his death, so his family could not have the Hindi funeral they wanted, apparently largely because one guy said he was a secret convert to Islam. In another case the Malay word for God ("Allah") was banned from Catholic publications, because it's also the Arabic for God and thus used in the Koran, despite the fact that the Catholic God and the Arabic God are the same guy (Jehovah or Yahweh).

None of which is particularly good, but considering the country to their North is engaging in routine coups d'tat to prevent the repeatedly-Democratically-elected Shinawatras, the entire region is working itself into circles to avoid providing homes to the Rohingya, the people who are implementing the Rohingya genocide in Rakhine state are also very iffy on democracy at home, etc. it's very hard for me to believe that it is true that we should make this particular problem the center-piece of our human rights policy for the region.

*The legal justification for Apartheid was technically non-racial, or as close to non-racial as you can get while setting up a real-life race-based caste system. The claim was that all black citizens of South Africa were actually citizens of their original tribe, that the Apartheid government had righted a great historical wrong by recognizing them as sovereign states, and that as citizens of their tribal Bantustan blacks were immigrants to the white bits (read: the bits people actually wanted) of the country and should be treated as such. Of course the "foreigner" had in most cases lived in the big city for multiple generations, probably couldn't even speak the tribal language (heck, even if you spoke Xhosa language fluently, and went to family reunions in Ciskei, the authorities were likely to make you a citizen of Bophutswana or something for obscure bureaucratic reasons).

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[NicBenjamin]

Dude,

Apartheid means "separateness."

You can accuse Malaysia of doing numerous bad things to minorities, but keeping them restricted to their own little Chinese-only ghettoes and persecuting anyone found out late at night is not one of them.

It is impossible for an activist to effectively fight a problem if he can't even articulate what the problem is in a sensible fashion.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[phayes]

Perfect application of laws isn't the subject. Wide-spread regime-condoned discrimination of minorities is. No other nation with anything approaching their level of economic development practices Apartheid in the 21st Century as Malaysia does.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[NicBenjamin]

You sure about the "not thousands of years" thing?

Because their northernmost Sultanate, which would be the last one conquered by immigrants from the Archipelago, claims a history back to 630. Granted this starts with conquests by a Sumatran, but as an American I have to say 13 or 14 centuries is a pretty damn long time to occupy a piece of land. In many countries in Europe the dominant ethnic group of 650 AD or so is not the dominant ethnic group today, and nobody claims the Romanians have no right to their land, or that the English should turn the Western half of the island over to Wales. Over the landmass of most of Malaysia the Orang Asli are "Proto-Malays," who have been on the peninsula; since 1500 BC at the latest. There's some debate as to whether the Duetero-Malays represent a new wave of colonization much later, during the Iron Age, or merely the Malays who chose civilized city life over Jungle-based nomadism.

So it seems to me pretty clear that the southern bit of the peninsula, AKA the one that is currently Malaysia, has been ethnic Malay for thousands of years. The Chinese and Indian minorities have only been significant since the British Empire brought them in.

Frankly the fact you're debating this point is a pretty good indication you're either an UNMO propagandist or an idiot. Why? This is an American site. The entire country has been around for less then 250 years. If the Malays were the largest ethnic group on the peninsula in 1450 (when precisely 2% of us were on this side of the ocean) we're not gonna care whether the guy who said "thousands" was off by 600 years. To contradict him on that point is both technically correct, and completely and totally unconvincing to an American. Particularly since, in our experience, anyone who spends this much time figuring out precisely which ethnic group is native to a particular bit of land is gonna start talking about getting rid of those damn new guys.

You could get somewhere arguing that the affirmative actions programs run by UNMO violate your individual rights, and are racist or unfair; that their Islamic Courts are insane and violate everyone else's religious freedom; or that their corruption is ridiculous. But ignore it when somebody says the Malays are indigenous to Malaysia.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[udippel]

I'm sorry for you, but you did a thorough research without finding the relevant semantics. Otherwise you could not have titled me as 'UMNO propagandist', because what i wrote is exactly the opposite of what UMNO is trying to instill into the population. Namely, that the Malays are the indigenous population. If I had much more time on my hands, I'd find out some academic articles, including by prominent Malaysians, that this is exactly not the case (Malays being there for thousands of years).
Alas, you are also mistaken w.r.t. the immigrants. The first Chinese settlements have been there around 1500 AD, when Malacca was about the centre of trade in South-East-Asia.

Remains your kind suggestion of me being an idiot, because - and I cite - 'this is an American site'. Wow. Your logic is quite remarkable. Because the United States has been around for only 250 years, I am supposed to be an idiot for arguing in longer periods of time?
Or maybe you simply misunderstood the whole matter, since I never questioned anything close to your example of the Romanians. The only thing that I questioned, and I am in the good company of science, is that the Malays were the natives of the Malaysian Peninsula. And i am in that same company, when I state that about 90 % of the Malays have landed in that region as a result of migratory activities, whenever those might have happened.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[jblues]

It's more than difficult, it's illegal. Converting away from Islam in Malaysia is punishable by life in prison.

What are you talking about? The issue is someone stated that its illegal to convert away from Islam in Malaysia. It is not. I corrected that.

You seem like someone who cares about social issues, and that's great. But if you want to help, start with the facts.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[NicBenjamin]

Two points:
1) This is an American site. Most readers don't actually believe the world existed before July 4th, 1776. Which means we really do not give two shits whether the Malays got there in 1500 or 630. Either way it's before time began, so they get to call it their country.

2) By making this argument you are helping UNMO. That is why I called you an UNMO Propagandist. As an American the only place I hear people make complex arguments about whether such-and-such a place was inhabited by such-and-such an ethnic group is when European nationalists start arguing about whom should be ethnically cleansed from where.

UNMO set up a ridiculous historical argument that makes them look bad in America (because they're divvying up government benefits by talking about shit that happened before time began), and then you followed then right down the rabbit hole with a sheaf of maps and a timeline. I'm probably not going to remember that they're crazy-ass racists who sincerely believe that shit that happened before 1776 actually matters, but I am going to remember a guy who opposes them and seems to be a Malaysian minority of some sort, is even crazier.

You did not have to follow them down the rabbit-hole. You could have pointed out that Chinese Malaysians are (on average) at least third or fourth generation and have no clue whether the cousins in China survived the Cultural Revolution.

3) Malays aren't neanderthals, of course they aren't the original population.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[RockDoctor]

but as an American I have to say 13 or 14 centuries is a pretty damn long time to occupy a piece of land.

I am sure that there are many American "Indians" who would agree with you, and look back at their hundred-odd centuries of inhabiting the Americans before being kicked out by white-skinned Europeans.

This is an American site.

I thought that the American site is slashdot.us, and that this is the international site. There were no passport checks on entry.

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[RockDoctor]

America ignores human rights when choosing allies. Maybe you should fix that?

Fix what? It is very convenient for politicians and allows businesses to make higher profits. What's the problem?

Re:Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

[NicBenjamin]

but as an American I have to say 13 or 14 centuries is a pretty damn long time to occupy a piece of land.

I am sure that there are many American "Indians" who would agree with you, and look back at their hundred-odd centuries of inhabiting the Americans before being kicked out by white-skinned Europeans.

Read some Native American history.

Yes, they were here on the continent before us, but they were always moving around on the continent. Take the Crow. They were driven West several time, ending up on the Great Plains. By the early 1800s they owned a significant tract of land centered on Montana. In 1851 they lost that land to the Sioux. They have technically never ceded an acre to the white man because by the time the white advance caught up to them they were homeless.

The Pueblo are pretty unique in being able to stretch their historic occupation of some of their land to 700, which is 70 years after the Malays dominated their northernmost Malaysian state.

Hell, even if you take white people out and ask "Who was on the same piece of land from 200 AD- 1500AD? You won't find many examples. US Native Americans were hunter-gatherers, and had to be quite mobile.

This is an American site.

I thought that the American site is slashdot.us, and that this is the international site. There were no passport checks on entry.

The vast majority of people on this site are Americans. You get the occasional Brit, Canadian, Australian, Kiwi, or European. Very rarely a Latin American or Asian.

Arguments about shit that happened in 630 are even worse in front of a Brit or European audience, because the whole point of the EU is that such debates are stupid and one should focus more on a) the individual rights of people currently living in the country, and b) certain (but not all) elements of their group rights (mostly language rights, even this is considered an extension of the individual right to speak in the language you actually understand). Heck, even if arguing ancient maps was still in vogue 630 is actually roughly the time the Anglo-Saxons finished conquering England.

So by that guys standard the UKIP is not only racist but incredibly bad at history, because the English have only a foreigner's right to England.

Re:Small correction

[Zontar The Mindless]

Israeli currency is labelled in both Hebrew and Arabic.

Re:Small correction

[Anonymous Coward]

There may have been black doctors, politicians et al living in 1950s segregated America but anyone that would claim blacks weren't heavily discriminated against because the US Constitution supposedly protected them is living in an alternative universe. Claiming there is no institutionalized discrimination in Israel is even more absurd. It's blatantly obvious that many Jews in Israel have been extreme nationalists that are engaged in a slow pogrom to not only eject non-Jews but to continue to expand Israel's borders.

That said, there is certainly racism in Palestine too and that shouldn't be swept under the carpet nor should the double standards in much of the Arab world that obsess on Israel.. .then don't look at how they treat non-Muslims in their own countries. In Saudi Arabia, allegedly our allies against Islamofascists like Isis and Al Qaeda, they still behead people for apostasy and homosexuality. The government there make Israel's inhumane treatment of Palestinians look like a human rights.

Re:Small correction

[Anonymous Coward]

On the contrary... most countries have some level of institutionalized racism. This is because there is an unresolved conflict between democratic rule and national identity.

Unfortunately having an adult public debate about it is next to impossible for the political class. On the one side you have the extreme left that typically slanders anyone that points this problem out as racist or fascist (nearly the entire "human rights" industry falls in this category) On the other you have the extreme right that goes to great lengths to conform to the stereotype.

Re:time for revolution

[fustakrakich]

those in power

Without an army, where is the power?

Re:Small correction

[flubby!]

Arabs in the government ? I think Lieberman would be the most virulent opponent to that notion (with Netanyahu and Naftali Benett among many others). Ayoob Kara is an Arab, yes, but check his alliances...

Israelis Jews don't like Arabs in general. Just go in Israel, you'll witness it first hand. If you think USA in the 50's were bad, Israel is a whole another crap hole...

Israel is de facto an apartheid nation (remember that Israel was the last entity working with South Africa when apartheid was in place ?).
A israeli jew, by law (you know about the Torah right ?) cannot sell its property to an non-jew (arab or otherwise), chekpoints for arabs, house destructions, land stealings, separate transportation for each "race", constant humiliation etc.

And the most important thing : the whole state of Israel has been taken by force in 1948 !

Why would you defend such a country ?

A for the comparison between Jordan and Israel ? Are you kidding ? Nobody care about Jordan (Sorry jordanians, I don't intend it to be insulting). Jordan doesn't receive billions from the US for its defense (though it receives money from the US to sustain its economy). The king of Jordan don't go to the US congress to insult the president in place. There's no AIPAC equivalent for Jordan, etc.

PS : you're never wise to post anonymously.

Israel versus Malaysia

[Anonymous Coward]

I have been living in Malaysia / Singapore since 2012, on a work-related assignment.

My previous assignment took me to Israel, for a 3-year contract.

As a Brit I have to say that racism does occur in both countries, albeit with a not-so-subtle difference:

In Israel, the laws do not favor any one race ...
 
... while in Malaysia the laws are stacked against the minorities ,

Every conceivable law and regulation favors the majority Malay race ---

From the issuance of Taxi Permit to the paying of income taxes ...

From the purchasing of houses, to university enrollment...
 
... the minorities, be it the Indians, the real indigenous (locally known as "Orang Asli"), the Chinese, and the mixed races, bear the brunt of legal discrimination.

But please, do not take my word for it ...

http://world.time.com/2013/09/...

Malaysia's apartheid

[Anonymous Coward]

Officially sanctioned apartheid in Malaysia has been in place since the 70s. My family and I were placed under house arrest by machine-gun toting police in '79 because my father refused to play along with the government's desire to rob him of his company. We had a friend in the government who attempted to protect us but was murdered in a faked helicopter crash, at which point we decided to leave and were smuggled out with false papers by the British embassy.

Be aware of professional spin-doctors !!

[Anonymous Coward]

One thing about Malaysia is that the ruling regime invested very heavily in professional spin-doctors, with their history-twisting lies, in order to hide all the ugly truths

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/tv-radio/special-investigation-tv-company-takes-millions-from-malaysian-government-to-make-documentaries-for-bbc-about-malaysia-2338813.html

The message I am replying to is one of those beautifully crafted piece filled with fact-twisting half-truths

... In the case of Malaysia, the laws favor the Malay people and their culture, who have been there for thousands of year ...

To jblues,

Please spread your bullshit somewhere else!

The Malays did not have 'thousands of years' of history nor culture on Malaysia.

The Malay arrived in Malaysia from Sumatra of Indonesia. Even their own history books have noted that Parameswara, a defeated prince from Sumatra, running from his enemies, landed on the shore of the Pininsular, some six hundred years ago

However, there is one people in Malaysia who can trace their ancestry back to thousands of years - the Orang Asli, the TRUE aborigines

All of you are invited to find out the truth for yourself, instead of listening to professional soothsayers paid by the racist regime which is now controlling Malaysia. I will only include a single link, to illustrate how the Orang Asli are being treated by the Malay authority ---

http://www.culturalsurvival.org/ourpublications/csq/article/orang-asli-odds-with-nation-state

Re:Be aware of professional spin-doctors !!

[jblues]

Professional spin doctor? Dude, you can look me up - I earn my bread writing code.

I was simply stating that addressing the problem of apartheid views/laws might be even more challenging in Malaysia than in South Africa because people tend to be more apologetic to the group that claims a longer cultural tradition. In fact I can think of some other countries where these kinds of views are seen as virtuous, whether or not they're legal. My own birth country is an example, and it makes me reluctant to bring my racially blended family there as I'm not sure it would be great for their well-being. Daily covert racism is not good for self-esteem, especially in the case of children, who are not equipped to deal with it.

Personally, I am completely against such views anywhere, especially if they make it all the way to being ratified in law.

Re:Be aware of professional spin-doctors !!

[NicBenjamin]

Take a look at actual info on these people.

The Proto-Malays actually started out as Orang Asli of the southern half of the country. The current Malays may be descended from the Duetero-Malays who appeared in the Iron Age. Even the northernmost (and thus furthest from Sumatra) Sultanates have histories dating back to the 630s.

OTOH, the Chinese and Indian minorities on the peninsula are largely, but not entirely, a product of British Imperialism in the 19th century.

Re:Jblues, spin-doctor hired by the Malay regime

[buchner.johannes]

To all, if you really want to know the truth, please go find out what has happened to Ms. Lina Joy, a Malay Muslim who converted into Christianity and ended up being forcefully locked up and is being brain-washed by the Malay regime.

The following link tells all !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

The link does not say that. It says that it is a difficult bureaucratic process. The link also states that 16 people have before renounced Islam and converted to another religion.

Re:Small correction

[Zontar The Mindless]

We have this problem in Sweden, whose previous mishandling of massive inflows of immigrants has already started leading to ghettoisation.

The Left here refuses even to discuss this, thus ceding the debate to Sverigedemokraterna (the right-wingers) before it's even begun.

Re:Small correction

[dbIII]

Nobody has forgotten, it's just not mentioned to avoid heated arguments that are a sidetrack to discussions about Malaysia. The "wild west" stuff with the settlers running the locals off their reservation even bounces it back into comparisons to the USA some time back.

So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Al Jazeera and the government sponsored news from NK are blocked from being aired in the USA. Stuff is blocked because of USA DMCA law. Images are blocked because of US definitions of underage. Even when the sites aren't in the USA or hosted in the USA or owned by anyone with anything IN the USA.

So, really, until the USA gets its act together, I really REALLY don't give a shit what other countries do to block stuff on the internet IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY ONLY.

Re:So what?

[jrumney]

Seriously, Al Jazeera is blocked in the US?

I know Dubya and co were targeting them and Reuters for being the only independent press operating in Iraq instead of being embedded under contol of the US military, but I'd have thought that within the US borders at least, your Constitutional Right to Free Speech was still being upheld.

Re:So what?

[NicBenjamin]

He's probably referring to the trouble they had getting cable operators to agree to carry them. That was a problem when they launched,. but at the moment they seem to be available in half the country.

Treatment of Ex-Muslims in Malaysia

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Persecution_of_Ex-Muslims_(Malaysia)

http://michellemalkin.com/2006/08/25/the-persecution-of-lina-joy/

Whatever anyone says that Malaysia is an open-minded country, please consult the links above

Re:time for revolution

[matfud]

Archduke Franz Ferdinand. Look how well that worked out.

Re:Small correction

[Dog-Cow]

Israel has no constitution.

Try not to let the facts slam your face into the wall on the way out.

Re:This

[KGIII]

I have to ask... Umm... I don't disagree with your sentiment but what are you on about? This is about Malaysia which, unless I am wrong - I've never been, is somewhere in the South Pacific. African-Americans are, well, probably not persecuted all over the world considering they're in America. That's the "American" part of that expression. Elsewhere they're just "Africans."

So, yeah... I really don't know where you were going with this. Apartheid means something about kept apart, ala segregation, if I recall a documentary about some bird island or something or other prison in South Africa. I am not sure it's really applicable in this situation but I haven't dug deeply. I can, definitively say, it's not about African Americans being persecuted, however.

Some confusion here.

[Fragnet]

The mainstream press in "liberal" countries also block based on political content. You can even be prosecuted for a tweet these days.

Should people in glass houses throw stones?

Re:Jblues, spin-doctor hired by the Malay regime

[jblues]

Don't you ever get tired of spreading your lies, jblues??

I have absolutely no interest in defending any government, anywhere. Someone (you?) stated that renouncing Islam in Malaysia is illegal and punishable with life in prison.

I stated there is no such law in Malaysia, (that I know of) and that, according to the law a person can obtain a certificate to renounce Islam as a religion, after which they are free to marry and convert to the faith of their spouse. I also stated that while the law exists, in practice a person seeking such recourse can encounter red-tap, bureaucracy and persecution, as happened to the person you refereed to, and many others.

Just trying to be factual and objective, as I believe this is a necessary prerequisite for making progress. My personal views on Malaysia are simply based on having lived there for a few years. I am completely opposed to the endemic corruption and abhorrent practices by many in positions of power (government). I have many first-hand stories in that regard, but won't share them here as I don't wish to endanger the lives of innocent people involved. Furthermore, I personally believe in complete separation of church/mosque/temple from state. I have no problem with a person deriving their moral compass from Islam, but completely disagree that a person should need to seek state permission to renounce Islam (or any religion), let alone face covert and illegal persecution after having done so. This kind of thing does not belong in the modern world.

When I said that Malaysian's got along with each other and respected each other's culture I was simply making a personal observation based on my own (limited) experience living there. During those years, I socialized with Malaysians from all walks of life and different ethnic groups and was impressed with the way they respected each others cultural backgrounds. The day the two Muslim girls from the office front-desk joyfully erected a Christmas tree is just one of many examples. I was also encouraged that, at a government level, many different religious holidays are officially observed. I took this as a sign that, at a state level some progress was being made and things are not all bad.

This is not different that my having enjoyed socializing with people in the USA, despite not agreeing with all of activities of that government there. I try not go in for black and white thinking - will leave that to religious fundamentalists and anyone else with a covert agenda :)

Re:Small correction

[flubby!]

I'm not as much trying to denounce racism as I'm trying to state some facts.

I'm not a "denounciator", that's why the comment above "denouncing" me as a SJW made me laugh. Hard.

For me to denounce Israel, I'd also have to denounce other racist countries ? What's the logic with that ? Israel is racist *because* of the surrounding mulsim slates ? Come on ! They're even racist between themselves ! Talk to a sepharadic jews who is constantly refered to as an "arab" by its ashkenazi brethren...

To be clear, I wasn't denouncing racism, I was describing racism in Israel.

Re:Small correction

[flubby!]

An SJW criticizing Israel and an anonymous coward shooting himself in the foot. Way to go Mr Rebel :)

Have you noticed that you didn't respond in any way to my post and just thrown an epithet in my face ? Truth be told, I wrote about Israel in a topic about Malaysia, I'm to blame too...

Re:Small correction

[drinkypoo]

The "wild west" stuff with the settlers running the locals off their reservation even bounces it back into comparisons to the USA some time back.

This Land Is Mine.

Look, seriously, Nobody does ethnic cleansing like the Jews. You think the politicians who created the nation of Israel were aware of history? I'm sure they were. They put the Jews there just to shit on the natives. So far, so good, right? And We The People of the USA pour gasoline on that bonfire every year. Your tax dollars at work.

This is not to say that all Jews are bad people. It's to say that Zionism is another typical evil. You know, like the USA, founded on theft, rape, and oppression. What a surprise that today we are still stealing, raping, and oppressing... and funding genocide that we're too cowardly to handle ourselves. Genocide by proxy, that's the most convenient way!

Re:Small correction

[udippel]

Insightful? Hmm.
Do you really know the situation in Malaysia, or are you arguing out of some emotional arousal?
The Malaysian constitution prescribes favorable allotment of jobs and university places to the members of the ruling, majority, ethnicity, the Malays. And this is not just in writing but implemented. Malaysian citizens of Chinese or Indian ethic background see it happen that a student with straight 'A's is denied a university education in the public universities while a mediocre Malay student is gladly admitted. Wow! There is even a university with 140000 students exclusively for students of Malay ethnicity. Check UiTM in WikIpedia if in doubt. Malays get monthly allowances for their kids, the others ethic groups don't.
All chancellors of all universities are Malays, almost all deans (with very few exceptions) are Malays due to the constitutional 'preferences'.

I think I can stop here, and I am arguing based on 12 years as university lecturer in said country.

Now the ball is in your court: I don't have much of insight into Israel, maybe you can enlighten me on the situation in Israel, please? Maybe I can learn something from that.
 

Re:time for revolution

[drinkypoo]

Without an army, where is the power?

You don't need a whole army to make people disappear in the night.

Oh look, 3 minutes between comments now. But I haven't been modded down. So did Slashdot detect that I was posting something objectionable and toad me? Or maybe an "editor" did it manually? Or has Slashdot just been fucked up again? Ah, now 4 minutes. So I presume I am now on the 5 minute delay, probably for my anti-Zionist comment. What the ever-living fuck, Slashdot? This is how you treat commenters whose karma is typically pinned to your pathetic post-revision maximum?

Re:Another political dynasty

[udippel]

Even though you are AC, I correct you:
Your assumption is possible, but in reality it is a bunch of oligarchs that hide behind Islam in order to con the simple people, who are, as we have learned in other posts, forced to be Muslims. This is - by the way - expressed in the law of the land.

Re:Small correction

[thegarbz]

Claiming there is no institutionalized discrimination in Israel is even more absurd

Institutionalised discrimination and constitutional racism are two very different things. One is against the law but tolerated and ignored, the other is enshrined in law. The latter is many orders of magnitude worse.

Re:This

[KGIII]

I was kind of assuming they were going with the African part but your way works too.

Re:This

[jrumney]

unless I am wrong - I've never been, is somewhere in the South Pacific

You're wrong, Malaysia is between the Indian Ocean and South China Sea.

the ONLY country in the world...?

[hidflect]

"Malaysia is the only country in the world where racial apartheid laws are still being actively practiced" Never heard of Israel, I suppose: http://www.itisapartheid.org/l...

Re:Small correction

[flubby!]

So you basically have low comprehension skills, you are quick to form an opinion with these aforementioned skills (or lack of) and you're prone to insult others in consequence of all that.

What a delight to talk to you !

Re:GAY NIGGERS are IN Malaysia TOO!

[hidflect]

You read (some of it) here first...

Re:Small correction

[Anonymous Coward]

"One of only 2 countries in the world with constitutional racism, Israel being .."

Only two? Here are a few more. Feel free to add more

1. Saudi (No rights for non-muslims)
2. UAE, (No rights for non-muslims)
3. Pakistan (non-muslims cannot become head of the state). ...

Re:Small correction

[NicBenjamin]

If you were truly looking to denounce racism you could not denounce Israel without also denouncing the far more virulent racism endemic in Islamic countries. Nah, you just think that your racism is justified.

Dude, when you're denouncing one injustice that does not put the onus on you to denounce every injustice.

Moreover you're insane if you think Islamic states are more racist then anyone else. India, for example, has institutionalized Affirmative Action that most American minority-rights groups would look at funny. The Chinese are racist enough that the Dalia Lama's people have been forced into low-grade rebellion and the poor East Turkestanis are in trouble (not that Israel's friends care: they're Muslim). Even in the US our law enforcement community makes a point of almost always coming down really hard on black teenage shenanigans (including shooting kids in the head for taking the orange rubber thing off the tip of their toy guns) while excusing many white teenage shenanigans as horseplay.

Re:Small correction

[NicBenjamin]

Then you're a moral relativist intent on seeing the transgressions of one side while ignoring those of the other. In sum a hypocrite. Spare us your moral judgements, you have no basis for forming any.

Question:
If I denounce the Nazis, how much space do I have to devote to denouncing Stalin before you decide I'm a "moral relativist intent on seeing the transgressions of one side while ignoring the other?"

Re:Small correction

[NicBenjamin]

They do and they don't. They have somethings called their "Basic Law" that fulfill the role of the Constitution. These are Constitutional in the sense that they can only be changed explicitly (ie: if Bibi wanted to start seizing property without compensation he'd have to amend the Basic Law banning that), but can be changed by simple majority vote in the Knesset. This system is pretty much identical to the one used by the Brits.

The anonymous coward post below actually has pretty good info in it.

Re:Small correction

[currently_awake]

If Israel had formally annexed the Palestinian lands and expelled the Palestinians all their "Apartheid" problems would be gone today. They would have secure borders and no terrorist problems. Of course that would be a war crime, and the Jews are too soft to actually do that.

Re:Small correction

[Sun]

Ayoob Kara is an Arab, yes, but check his alliances...

So an Arab isn't really an Arab if his opinions do not align with what you think an Arab should believe in? Or do you think that Netanyahu's government should have accepted an Arab minister who has an ideology very different than the government's, merely because they are Arab?

Israel is de facto an apartheid nation

Most of that sentence was opinion, so I cut it out. You are entitled to yours, of course (what's more, it is impossible to really prove or disprove to anyone's satisfaction). This part, however, requires more clarification. How can you claim that a country where you can and do find Arab judges judging disputes between Jewish parties, Arab doctors treating Jewish patients, etc is a de-facto apartheid? You do not seem to be using any standard definition of the word that I'm aware of. If this is a result of my ignorance, please do enlighten me, but it seems like the definition you are using is "whatever the dictionary says + whatever it is that I believe, irrespective of facts, that Israel is doing", which is another way of saying "dictionary definition + Israel".

A israeli jew, by law (you know about the Torah right ?) cannot sell its property to an non-jew (arab or otherwise)

The Torah has no binding effect in Israeli court of law, except for very special courts that are only authorized to handle family matters (i.e. - divorces) between all Jews parties. Before you go all giddy with finding another aspect of Israel's apparent segregation, yes, there are parallel Muslim courts.

As for the selling of land, quite a few years ago (I think over a decade, now) the supreme court told KKL, a private organization that, due to historical reasons, holds quite a few lands in Israel, that it is not allowed to discriminate against selling to Arabs, because the volume of lands it is holding creates a de facto racial discrimination.

chekpoints for arabs, house destructions, land stealings, separate transportation for each "race", constant humiliation etc.

But, see, that does not apply to all Arabs, doesn't it? And if it does not, then claiming that it has a racial, rather than, say, security and/or citizenship, reasons is a claim that, at the very least, needs further discussion. What is obviously clear, however, is that you cannot claim racial discrimination while ignoring the fact that the separating line between those who do and those who don't isn't racial.

This is doubly hypocritical now, only a month after the Israeli government (yes, that's Netanyahu's government) started applying these measures against extremist Jews suspected of trying to hurt Arabs.

Don't get me wrong. I hate those measures and I believe Israel should find a more democratic means to resolve the real problems it is facing, but claiming that the reasons for those measures is racism is simply ludicrous.

And the most important thing : the whole state of Israel has been taken by force in 1948 !

I find it hard to explain just how widely inaccurate, and even apocryphal, that claim is. I'd gladly go into the details in private (my email is in this, and every other one of my, comment headers). It is widely off topic here. Truthfully, the entire thread is off topic, but this particular subject is also long.

Why would you defend such a country ?

I'm not the original commenter, but I'll answer anyway: I'm not defending such a country. I'm defending Israel, which isn't such a country.

PS : you're never wise to post anonymously.

Like I said, I'm not the original commenter, but if you need someone not an anonymous coward to respond to, I'm here.

Shachar

Re:This

[NicBenjamin]

It's an AC.

I suspect he was trying to start a flame-war, and he picked on black guys because a) it's traditional for Americans to pick on black guys, and b) the Malaysian government is known for affirmative action programs, which are associated with black guys.

Re:Small correction

[flubby!]

Happy to see someone is able to express arguments, even if I disagree with most of them. A refreshing change in these forums.

A little less of "hypocritical" and "dubious" would be fine though. And putting words in my mouth is very effective but counter-productive in the long-run.

I might take you up on you offer though, maybe we could have productive discussions. Although you're defending Israel and I oppose it and if history is any judge, discussions haven't gotten really far, sadly.

I agree, as I said earlier too, the whole thread is off-topic. It's interesting nonetheless :)

Re:This

[KGIII]

Isn't that considered the South Pacific? I think it's near the south of Vietnam? I'm not the greatest at geography (obviously). That's not the Pacific still?

Re:Small correction

[Sun]

Happy to see someone is able to express arguments, especially since I disagree with most of them. A refreshing change in these forums.

FTFY.

Surely, you meant that you were tired of talking either to hotheads or to people who already agree with you, and that you greatly welcome the opportunity to test your assumptions against someone who's willing to answer with actual verifiable statements of fact, so that you can find out in case you are, against all of your expectations, wrong.

A little less of "hypocritical" and "dubious" would be fine though.

I'll do my best, though I counted one "hypocritical", directed at a statement (i.e. - not at you, but at a statement you made), and zero "dubious", which I'll find hard to cut back further on. If you found offense from the "hypocritical", please do accept my apology. I'll do my best to also assume ignorance rather than malice.

And putting words in my mouth is very effective but counter-productive in the long-run.

I did not think I did. If I did, please:
A. Accept my apology
and
B. Assume I did it out of a genuine misunderstanding rather than malice.

I will be happy (in private, as you said) for you to point out where you thought I attributed to you things you did not say. I am always happy to engage in facts based discussion with people whose opinions I completely disagree, as it allows me to find out my own blind spots and, occasionally, find out that I am wrong about something I believe in.

I might take you up on you offer though, maybe we could have productive discussions.

My email is public for that specific reason.

Although you're defending Israel and I oppose it and if history is any judge, discussions haven't gotten really far, sadly.

The amount of heated, needlessly ad-hominem and derogatory discussions on this topic is, indeed, quite high. It would be a mistake to assume it only happens by Israeli supporters. Personally, I do my best to start each discussion anew, and not apply my opinion of previous speakers to new discussion. I would love for you to give me credit and do the same.

If you are still worried, however, please do feel free to click on to my slashdot page, and then check out earlier comments I've made. This is not the first time I dive into this subject when it comes up here.

I eagerly await your private reply,
Shachar

Re:Small correction

[dbIII]

Thank you for providing an example of why mentioning Israel is a pointless sidetrack likely to do nothing apart from start flame wars. True or not it's argument fuel.

Re:Small correction

[drinkypoo]

Thank you for providing an example of why mentioning Israel is a pointless sidetrack likely to do nothing apart from start flame wars. True or not it's argument fuel.

Yep. I agree wholeheartedly. It's impossible not to have an emotional reaction to the issue one way or another. If it's not directly comparable, it shouldn't be mentioned at all.

Re:Small correction

[rtb61]

Erm, cough, cough, Saudi Arabia is by far the worst offender, not just racially and religious prejudiced but also hugely gender biased. So the no matter how bad any other country is, they run a poor second to Americas best buddies even when those best buddies fly planes into buildings and kill thousands of Americans. If the bribes are big enough and hidden in tax havens, you most certainly can get away with mass murder in the United States of America. Typical act of the political elite, exploit racism and prejudice to keep power, done all over the world and in many countries and even many democracies.

Re:This

[TapeCutter]

It's sitting on the equator just above Australia, a little to the left of the Pacific ocean.

Re:Small correction

[strikethree]

And the most important thing : the whole state of Israel has been taken by force in 1948 !

Why would you defend such a country ?

All countries were made through force. Do you think the Russians lived in Russia since the dawn of time? Do you think the Chinese lived in China since the dawn of time? The only thing unique about Israel is that it was carved out by a third party for them.

Personally, I would nuke the whole area for all of them being jackasses. The Israeli leadership for allowing settling land and bulldozing houses and the Palestinian leadership for never being amenable to any rational agreement and being committed to keeping the Palestinians miserable.

I would be for taking all of the leaders from both sides and publicly executing them but the rot and corruption is too deep. Start with a clean slate and nuke it all. Of course, announce beforehand so reasonable people can leave the area forever.

Re:This

[KGIII]

You know... I have no idea where the ocean ends and it becomes a sea. That and well, as I said, I've never been to Malaysia. I've been, kind of, in that area but not to Malaysia. Maybe I should try that Google thing and learn where those borders are? I'll probably just forget. :/