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Apple To FBI: Encryption Rules Out Handing Over iMessage Data In Real Time
Mark Wilson writes that Apple has balked at a court order to provide the FBI with the contents of text messages among users of its iMessage service, claiming that the encryption it uses to protect these messages makes handing over the messages themselves impossible. From the article: The Justice Department obtained a court order that required Apple to provide real time access to text messages sent between suspects in an investigation involving guns and drugs. Apple has responded by saying that the fact iMessage is encrypted means that it is simply not able to comply with the order. The stand-off between the US government and Apple could last for some time as neither side is willing — or possibly able — to back down.
... give them what they are asking for? Just hand over the encrypted data and say "good luck with that".
This is an ex-parrot!
for the BFI
Encryption Rules Out Handing Over iMessage Data In Real Time
Beautiful. This is as it should be.
Just send the encrypted messages. That way you're complying with the order.
Does that mean they can still trivially decrypt things over a slightly longer timeline? Sounds like there is already a backdoor in place.
As I understand the iMessage, Apple hides some of the key selection process from end users. (This is considered a good thing - without it, fewer people would use it because it would be like using PGP.) If Apple was compelled, they could also encrypt outgoing messages with one of the FBI's public keys and either send the same message across the wire (where the FBI could pick it up) or send a second message encrypted just for the FBI to the FBI. Either method would be discoverable, but Apple could paper over that issue in its interface because it controls the software. (Apple could also limit the discoverability of such a "feature" by using its phone home key request to request the FBI's key for and encrypt only certain monitored people's communications - that way most security experts WOULDN'T see a change.)
Long story short, Apple COULD provide real-time access to encrypted messages, but it would take a little work to sneak that in, and eventually someone would find it.
In the end, government will get its way. Sadly. This is the world we live in. It's going to end up "for the children".
Pretty well defines what is good.
Once the industrialized countries outlaw encryption, I don't know how the banking system can survive.
But, of course, the US govt. will continue using encryption for their docs.
I hate to add this but to be truthful Apple can comply if the iMessage is a group message using their cloud based keychain. Since Apple controls which public keys are associated with which participant there is no reason they could not insert an extra one for which they themself have the corresponding private key.
That is assuming they could make the UI hide the extra iMessage recipient line.
See: https://www.grc.com/sn/sn-448.... for further info and some interesting other stuff about the IOS security model.
This is just the circus act for the cameras. Good for both of them to act this way. Spooks keep on spooking and Apple keeps to its Faustian deal.
There is no good versus evil here, only evil and evil.
We'll finally get to see what "impossible" really means if said by a software company. As in "It is impossible to unbundle IE from Windows".
Anyone holding a bet that this impossible mission will be made possible?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
... from Apple ? Making all Android-based vendors look like bad guys, while making themselves look like good guys. Maybe it will help sales as well.
Also, "Black-box" testing uncovers several ways the NSA could tap iMessage (from 2013)
http://arstechnica.com/securit...
I thought that P=NP would break every encryption method except one-time pads. Does Apple secretly have a proof that P!=NP to make their impossibility claim? Even if their proof merely says that any polynomial-time solution would have an impractically large exponent or constant, it would be an amazing breakthrough. Please publish!
...is if court decides to sanction Apple. After all, there's a lot of money in Apple's coffers which the court could use to incentivise Apple do doing its bidding or risk losing. Of course, Apple will appeal any such sanction but it could have a massive impact on the stock price in the mean time...and could cause Apple to rethink its cash reserves.
Just saying...
Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
According to the article:
Despite a court order instructing the company to hand over text conversations between iMessage accounts to the FBI,
How was the court order to do this obtained? Is the FBI investigating someone? Is there some other case in progress?
The FBI needs to start hiring smarter people who understand how technology works.
#DeleteChrome
If the FBI really wants access, they could get an NSL issued, forcing apple to comply by compromising their own system..and they couldn't tell their customers about it.
Until this is fixed, there's no way in hell I will believe any grandstanding on the part of any vendor.
Luckily I use Android which provides a direct feed of all my activity to the FBI, Google Marketing, NSA, and anyone else who wants it.
Your right to privacy flows from the Fourteenth Amendment, not the Fourth Amendment. See Roe v. Wade ...
Actually, I'm surprised they still feel somewhat obliged to justify anything. We're past the stage they should actually say "shut up and comply or we'll kill you and your family".
Human beings rationalize. It's not like the intelligence agencies take away your privacy rights because they're trying to be the bad guys--they're trying to be the good guys and save everyone and go after the big bad criminals, it's just that their profession gives them a really warped view of what privacy should look like and the consequences of losing it. Basically they trust themselves with your information so most of them don't seriously believe or really understand how much of a threat it is to democracy for a government force operating mostly in secret to have that information.
It's a little like trying to make today's Americans understand the vitriol of the Protestant-Catholic wars, or the Sunni-Shiite divide. There's no real frame of reference or an inability to project that frame of reference onto the conflict.
Give the government the keys and they can trust it to the OPM for safekeeping. See? I'm a genius.
This is an inevitable reaction to what the US Government has done in the past. I can't say that I'm terribly surprised. I expect more of this in the future.
Customers have an expectation of privacy. The US Government (or others) invade the privacy of the customers. The vendors see that they can make money by meeting the privacy expectations of the customers. Vendors protect their customers from the US Government (at least to some extent). Vendors profit.
I wonder if these fights are just disinformation to try to convince criminals/terrorists that they can use iMessage. The government lets a criminal get away with it in a case they don't really care about or can convict them without it anyways and makes a lot of press, and then has access to it in all the cases they do care about.
iMessage is designed with warrants in mind if you read over the protocol documentation. Each device has its own key and is tied to your Apple Id. If you have a iPhone, a Macbook, and an iPad each device has its own encryption key. When someone sends you an iMessage, Apples sends them the public key for each of the 3 devices and then the encrypted message is sent to each device which uses its private key to decrypt the message.
When a warrant is issued, all Apple has to do is add a 4th, "FBI device" to your Apple Id and anyone sending you an iMessage also gets encrypted with that key.
As Apple controls the user interface and they provide no way to view how many keys an iMessage is being encrypted with, there is no easy way to see if an extra key for ease-dropping is being used. There may be ways if one monitored the size of the traffic, but I am not aware of that work being done. Anyone who had the need to make sure they weren't being spied on by the government, wouldn't use iMessage.
This message is encrypted with Quad ROT-13 to protect the author's copyright under the DMCA.
If these work similar to BlackBerry and BIS did, the key's are on the device itself, and the public key is registered with the iMessage service. When a message is sent to another party it is encrypted with their public key. The matching private key is not in apples possession, it is on a chip in the other parties phone. If this chip was designed correctly, there is no way to extract the private key without disassembling it. So legitimately, Apple may not be able to service this request.
Apple *is* able to hand over the messages, but is legally obliged to maintain appearances toward the public that it can't though a theatrical court process ?
This is paranoid, but is there any way to disprove this theory ?
to provide those iMessages as they happen.
And how would you like your copy of those encrypted messages delivered?
My father and his friends all worked for Big Blue during their golden years selling/installing mainframes and I've had a PC in the house my entire life. Never once have I ever considering paying for over-hyped over-priced Apple "toys" until now. I simply cannot ignore the facts anymore that Apple makes the best phones on the market with sound security while Android and Windows erode away, and articles like this go a long way towards making me feel confident about my purchase. I'm very impressed with my 5s.
They should just hand over the encrypted data. Technically that counts as handing them the messages.
This is good propaganda for Apple. I don't believe it.
The security of the iDevice is stunningly bad, and has been for years. It has more holes than swiss cheese. If a 3-letter agency wants data from a device, they barely have to ask.
If I were a 3-letter agency, I would use a ploy like this to tempt terrorists or wanna-be's to feel special using something amazingly insecure.
I got a pair-o-nards. Is that close enough?
...or this is just a giant rouse to convince us all the iMessage is an end-to-end, secure, PKI system that we should all trust, when this may not be true at all. Very hard to tell if it is a closed-source system which is not publicly auditable. Would you trust it with your secrets? I wouldn't (if I had any).
If these work similar to BlackBerry and BIS did, the key's are on the device itself, and the public key is registered with the iMessage service. When a message is sent to another party it is encrypted with their public key. The matching private key is not in apples possession, it is on a chip in the other parties phone. If this chip was designed correctly, there is no way to extract the private key without disassembling it. So legitimately, Apple may not be able to service this request.
That is EXACTLY how it works.
If there were an encryption that had 2 or even more sets of keys and would actually decode different data when each key is used.
Scenario: Court orders you to produce the key and you do. It decodes something unimportant like a home family movie. While you still have a totally separate key that can decode the real data that was encrypted.
key's
keys
apples
apple's
Happy to Help.
From the bottom of the article:
âoeApple is standing by its decision to implement end-to-end encryption, having conceded only to hand over the content of some messages to the FBI, rather than providing real time access as requested.â
If it can hand over the content of some messages then surely that implies that Apple has the ability to decrypt people's iMessages. Does Apple have its own back-door / master key?
I used to have a better sig than this, but I got tired of it