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Apple Admits iCloud Problem Has Killed iOS 9 'App Slicing'

Posted by samzenpus on from the bug-not-a-feature dept.

Mark Wilson writes: One of the key features of iOS 9 — and one of the reasons 16GB iPhones were not killed — is app slicing. This innocuous-sounding feature reduces the amount of space apps take up on iPhones and iPads... or at least it does when it is working. At the moment Apple has a problem with iCloud which is preventing app slicing from working correctly. The feature works by only downloading the components of an app that are needed to perform specific tasks on a particular device, but at the moment regular, universal apps are delivered by default.

90 of 143 comments (clear)

  1. It's delayed, not dead by dugancent · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Nothing has been killed. Enough with the hyperbole.

    --
    SJWs are the new boogeyman. -Me
    1. Re:It's delayed, not dead by khchung · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nothing has been killed. Enough with the hyperbole.

      I guess you would have noticed by now. After a new iPhone release in Sept every year, there would be a slew of these hyperbole troll pieces in the media to try to lure more readers by riding the iPhone bandwagon, and /. is no different.

      And we have been lured in just as expected.

      --
      Oliver.
    2. Re:It's delayed, not dead by Skater · · Score: 1

      It sounds like a pretty interesting feature, actually, once you get past the "Haha, iOS 9 is a failure!" tone of the summary.

    3. Re:It's delayed, not dead by tripleevenfall · · Score: 1

      I agree that App Slicing is interesting, but I don't really agree with their premise on the 16GB phones. A 16GB phone is still crippled these days. Do customers want an iPhone that has so little storage for music and photos, and isn't upgradable?

      Sure, Apple will say "but you can store all your photos and music in iCloud". But that's hardly an option as wireless carriers continue to try to drive down data usage with data caps, throttling, and exorbitant overage charges.

      I like the Apple platform and I will stick with it, but it's a bad business decision to herd people into 16GB phones they are going to be less than happy with.

    4. Re:It's delayed, not dead by macs4all · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It sounds like a pretty interesting feature, actually, once you get past the "Haha, iOS 9 is a failure!" tone of the summary.

      Back in around 1980, I created a system for "Slicing" Applesoft BASIC programs for the Apple ][, to work-around another developer creating a program that was so large, that Applesoft spent pretty much its entire time doing Garbage Collection, because there was so little free memory left. Since it was WAAAAY too late in the Project to completely re-factor and re-write the code, I created a "Segment Loader" for Applesoft.

      The idea was that you could take any Applesoft program, and pretty much just divide it up willy-nilly into smaller "loadable segments". And as long as you didn't do something completely stupid, like split the program in the middle of a tight looping structure, it worked a TREAT. It could load about 8 kB/sec off of floppy (which meant that most of the time, the segment-loading delay was only around a second), and with a Corvus hard disk, the User couldn't even tell it had loaded another segment. And, unlike the typical method of "at a Menu, RUN a separate Program for each Menu Item", the Applesoft Variables were RETAINED (and even moved in memory if the segment-being-loaded was larger than the one being "vacated").

      The system, which I called "Overlayer", worked through Applesoft's wonderful "&" Hook through the ONERRGOTO vector, and when my code was called, it would analyze what the error was, and if it was a "Line Not Found"-type Error, it would look back to see what line it was, then consult a Table of which line-range was in which "Segment", and then load that segment of code, readjust the memory fences, then "rewind" the execution pointer to the beginning of the statement causing the error, then RESUMEd. Applesoft then executed the (now) good statement, and went on its merry way.

      Without seing that part of last week's Keynote, or any of the Developer docs for the iOS feature, I would bet that this (sort of) works the same way (although probably much more formalized than using a simple ONERRGOTO hook).

    5. Re:It's delayed, not dead by macs4all · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I agree that App Slicing is interesting, but I don't really agree with their premise on the 16GB phones. A 16GB phone is still crippled these days. Do customers want an iPhone that has so little storage for music and photos, and isn't upgradable?

      Sure, Apple will say "but you can store all your photos and music in iCloud". But that's hardly an option as wireless carriers continue to try to drive down data usage with data caps, throttling, and exorbitant overage charges.

      I like the Apple platform and I will stick with it, but it's a bad business decision to herd people into 16GB phones they are going to be less than happy with.

      Nobody is "herding" anyone into a 16 GB phone, as there are memory options up to 128 GB. But for a LOT of (non-Slashdot) readers, 16 GB really IS ok, and this lets Apple keep a low-end model that will appeal to a lot more people than you would imagine.

      I am sure that Apple "ran the numbers", and figured that, even without App Slicing (which only affects a much-smaller group of "Those who want a cheaper phone; but still want some Apps"), that a 16 GB model was attractive.

      Conversely, they also saw that, for the "power users", 32 GB wasn't enough, and so they dropped that option, probably because it wasn't selling so good...

    6. Re:It's delayed, not dead by KGIII · · Score: 1

      I have a rather fairly new and fancy smart phone (but it is Android - I'm not a fan of iOS). I have just checked - and this is after having it for a few months and being on the road for a while doing my typical 'wanderlust' - I have four pictures and 37 seconds of video. I have four applications installed. I did not check but I believe there's a microSD card in there with another 128 GB of space on it and I think the phone came with 128 GB but I'd have to double check and I am lazy.

      So, yeah, I could easily get away with 16 GB of space. I want it to be expandable, however, because I may change my mind and want to be able to add more. I could get away with 2 GB of space to be quite honest. I use my phone to make phone calls, send texts, read/reply to emails, maybe do some remote "work" by connecting to my desktop, poke at the 'net when I've a few minutes that are idle, and read an eBook now and then. That's really about all I do on it. Sometimes, rather seldom really, I'll use the GPS but I have a GPS unit in almost every one of my vehicles.

      I don't, generally, take pictures. I almost never take video - the video I do have is from testing it when it was new and being too lazy to delete it. I don't install bunches of applications - I've no need of them nor desire to use many of them.

      I'd have no use for 128 GBs of space on my phone. It would go to waste. I realize that I'm not the target demographic for such a phone, however. I also accept that people have varied needs and desires and don't feel any compelling urge to make them do things in a manner that I approve of. It's kind of like I don't suggest anyone use a certain operating system other than to suggest that they find one that suits their needs and enables them to accomplish their goals easiest. I may be an open source user but I am not a zealot.

      Proselytizing is for folks who are insecure. I use what suits my needs best and allows me to be the most efficient with my own work-flow in mind. I'm mostly 'capable' in any OS (for phones, tablets, or computers) but I find my work flow is best suited with Linux. As with operating systems, well, use the right size phone for you. I am not sure why people are so compelled to tell others how they should behave. Especially when it is something so trivial.

      The only reason I even have the phone I have an the amount of storage that I have is because there's a slight chance that I'll want to make use of those resources at some point and I don't want to have to replace things often. Imagine that?

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  2. Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by mattdm · · Score: 2

    I thought it might be just the summary, but I read TFA. What in the world are we talking about here? This is slashdot, not the evening news or something. Is "app slicing" a fancy word for "we only give you the bits you need for your architecture?"

    1. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by DigiShaman · · Score: 5, Informative

      https://www.quora.com/What-is-...

      Hello,

      What Apple listed as one feature is actually three separate mechanisms, each playing its own part in reducing app size.

      The primary mechanism – App Slicing – is the one that does most of the work. Because apps need to run on a variety of devices, from the 3.5-inch iPhone 4 to the 5.5-inch iPhone 6 (or 10-inch iPad, for universal apps), they contain separate assets for each of those devices – most of which your device doesn’t need.

      With App Slices, developers tag assets by device, and when you download the app from iTunes, it will only download the assets your device needs. Apple has made this process pretty simple for developers, so it’s likely that many will support it.

      On-Demand Resources (ODR) is the second way to reduce app sizes. ArsTechnica gives the example of multi-level games, where you typically only need the level you are playing plus the next few levels up. ODR means you can download the game with the first few levels included. As your play progresses, the app downloads extra levels and purges the levels already completed.

      Finally, Bitcode. Instead of uploading pre-compiled binaries, developers upload what Apple calls an “intermediate representation” of the app. The App Store then automatically compiles the app just before downloading. This allows it to automatically implement part of App Slicing even if the developer hasn’t bothered to tag their code, downloading only the 32- or 64-bit code as required.

      -Bin Sand

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    2. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's not just architecture, it's screen size and resolution. Imagine a game with assets for high-pixel-density screens like Retina, low density screens, big tablet screens, tiny phone screens, etc. That's a lot of space. It sounds like Apple has made it possible for devs to release one game package to the App Store, and in turn the App Store shoves across to the consumer only what assets from that package are needed for the specific device on which it's downloaded.

    3. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by MavEtJu · · Score: 1, Interesting

      > Finally, Bitcode. Instead of uploading pre-compiled binaries, developers upload what Apple calls an âoeintermediate representationâ of the app. The App Store then automatically compiles the app just before downloading. This allows it to automatically implement part of App Slicing even if the developer hasnâ(TM)t bothered to tag their code, downloading only the 32- or 64-bit code as required.

      That will bring up a nice amount of Heisenberg bugs.

      --
      bash$ :(){ :|:&};:
    4. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Most likely: With 'app slicing', when you download an app, it downloads only binaries for your exact iDevice model (sliced), instead of a binary for all iDevices supported by that build of the binary ('universal binary').

      Looks like iCloud backup, though, simply backs up the entire memory state and apps as they are on your device ('device A'). Attempting to restore that backup now on another device (device b) will restore the same binaries that were backed up - which is fine if device b and device a would have run the same binaries anyway. But, of course, iCloud is designed as a cross-device migration, so for the first time, a backup taken from 'device A' won't work on 'device B' (assuming different enough types of devices).

      As a work-around, Apple have disabled downloading 'sliced' binaries, so instead you download full (universal) binaries. This means the backups will have the universal binaries which will work on any 'device b'.

      Further Information on App Slicing and App Thinning.

    5. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by LocalH · · Score: 2

      I'm confused about all this.

      iCloud Backup doesn't actually back up the app bundles themselves. It only backs up purchase history. When you restore a backup from iCloud, you are essentially redownloading the app bundles from the App Store in the process. This makes me wonder why they can't implement the app slicing functionality in that situation. Unless it has to do with data created by an app that may be missing resources for other devices? Not sure how that would be the case, but I'm not an iOS expert, just a seasoned user.

      Source: iCloud storage and backup overview

      Your iCloud backup includes information about the content you have purchased, but not the purchased content itself. When you restore from an iCloud backup, your purchased content is automatically downloaded from the iTunes Store, App Store, or iBooks Store.

      --
      FC Closer
    6. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by hughbar · · Score: 1

      ODR sounds very like overlays: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... used in the 1970s on mainframes. Back to the future.

      --
      On y va, qui mal y pense!
    7. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      I did the same, it wanted far too much access to my shit so I bailed.

      Even though I didn't complete it I get about 20 spam mails a day.

      Pity, because some of the content looks interesting.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    8. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by gnupun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It'll decrease your profit by less than 2%.

      Are you sure about that? It'll increase their cost by a percent or two, but the profits will drop a lot as the 32 GB and higher models are priced over $200 than the 16 GB models.

      If a 32GB model existed, 64GB and 128GB sales would be a lot lower, decreasing overall profits by 20-30%. Therefore, this price gouging will continue for the foreseeable future where downloading a couple of 3D games will consume all your flash space in the 16GB model. So you're forced to buy 32GB and higher.

    9. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by gpoul · · Score: 2

      Yes, at least partially. I think the most important component is that you'll only get application resources (like graphics, but potentially others depending on the application) that are required for the device you have. This means you'll not get graphics that aren't even targeted for your device, which is easy and a good thing, because you'll not have resources for retina screens on non-retina devices or vice versa. It basically rips out stuff you'll never need on your specific target device. And as far as I understand it this is not Apple doing magic, but the app developer defining in XCode which resources are targeted at which type of device.

      DIsclaimer: I'm not a mobile app developer, I just watched the presentation and demo showing the XCode screens for defining this :)

    10. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 2

      On the other hand, they could not do that, and not decrease their profits by 2%.

      What to do, what to do...

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    11. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Apple doesn't do things that were done before. They only invent.

    12. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by Rosyna · · Score: 4, Informative

      The description of bitcode’s purpose is just a bit wrong.

      Bitcode is designed to remove the requirement of needing multiple architecture slices for architectures that are just slightly different. For example, when the iPhone 5 came out it supported an “ARMv7s” ISA. This added a few new instructions to ARMv7 like integer divide to increase performance. However, in order for developers to take advantage of it, their app had to have executable code slices for both ARMv7 and ARMv7s, increasing binary sizes. Furthermore, it required every library ARMv7s code linked to also have an ARMv7s slice.

      This quickly became a pain in the ass and ARMv7s was dropped in Xcode 6.

      Bitcode would address this issue. A developer would compile their app to Bitcode (a specific type of LLVM IR) and then Apple would later compile it fully into the target ISA.

      This is especially relevant for ARMv8 as ARMv8.1 is the latest version with slight changes.

    13. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by Rosyna · · Score: 1

      Err, I forgot to mention Bitcode is extraordinarily sensitive to the target ABI. So a single Bitcode file cannot be used to compile to both 32-bit and 64-bit, the ABIs re just way too different.

    14. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by Rosyna · · Score: 2

      Uhm, Apple already buys the majority of the world’s NAND. They buy so much it constrains and chokes the supplies available to other vendors. Do you really think Apple increasing the amount of NAND would be a good thing for non-Apple devices?

    15. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by Rosyna · · Score: 1

      It may be that the iCloud backup has a bug that backs up the information used for app thinning and uses it on restore when it should not. Instead it should use the architecture information from the target device.

    16. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      YOU are assuming corporations and Executives are honest entities with compassion and a sense of right.

      Reality is they hate honestly, they hate being forced to follow laws, and All of them act this way. If samsung was honest they would bump up all their models without a price change. All the phone makers are eliminating memory expansion, Google even disabled most of the access to it under Android so now you have to hack the OS to use it completely. Samsung gleefully got rid of the micro sd slot.

      They all follow each other, they all do the same things to maximize profits, none should be trusted...

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    17. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by DigiShaman · · Score: 2

      Depends on the game and device. For example, the new AppleTV (tvOS) has an imposed limit of 200MB per app. Game developers are supposed leverage ODR . And yes, I know, not likely to be using an AppleTV on an airplane. But the point is that ODR in game development could, in theory, break your gaming stride if an internet connection can't update the dynamic content when needed. But perhaps if you stay in that one level or area, you're fine until an Internet link is established?? I'll leave that up to the game designers to answer if it's doable.

      Resource Limitations

      There is no persistent local storage for apps on Apple TV. This means that every app developed for the new Apple TV must be able to store data in iCloud and retrieve it in a way that provides a great customer experience.

      Along with the lack of local storage, the maximum size of an Apple TV app is limited to 200MB. Anything beyond this size needs to be packaged and loaded using on-demand resources. Knowing how and when to load new assets while keeping your users engaged is critical to creating a successful app. For information on on-demand resources, see On-Demand Resources Guide.

      Your app can download the data it needs into its cache directory. Data downloaded will not be deleted while the app is running. However, the data may be deleted while your app is not running and the Apple TV needs the space. Do not use the entire cache space as this can cause unpredictable results.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    18. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by DrXym · · Score: 1
      I wish Google would support a universal ABI using bitcode in their NDK. Apps that have native shared libs (i.e. most games) are faced with either bundling up all the libs compiled for each architecture into a single package (bloat), or producing separate packages for each architecture (hassle). And of course if a new architecture comes along, it means repackaging the app again.

      It'd be much nicer to just bundle up a single shared library that was compatible with any architecture. It could be turned into a native lib when the app is downloaded or when the app was installed on the device. It could also just execute via a JIT.

      The weird thing is that Android does contain an llvm compiler for renderscript, but not the NDK.

    19. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by rjstanford · · Score: 1

      Note that the requirements for an inherently mobile, disconnected device like a phone and an inherently stationary, connected device designed to consume content (like the AppleTV) are quite different. That's not a bug, that's an intelligent design decision.

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    20. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

      The decision not to make the base model 32GB is a commercial one, probably driven by market segmentation. The idea, I think, is that 16GB is good enough for casual users but advanced users would need at least 32GB. They also know that the latter have a bigger budget, so, by not offering the best compromize, they can more easily target each group. The 128GB model is the high anchor. That's basic marketing.
      Now for the technical side. Finding ways to reduce the app size is a good thing. And it would still be a good thing if the basic model was 1TB. It in addition to space, it saves bandwith, time, power, etc...Maybe not by much but it is definitely an improvment and I would hardly call it "stupid".

    21. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by sribe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If a 32GB model existed, 64GB and 128GB sales would be a lot lower, decreasing overall profits by 20-30%.

      That's some pretty fuzzy thinking. I bet that the existence of a 32GB model would not affect 128GB sales by even 1 single phone.

    22. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by macs4all · · Score: 1

      You have to weigh the cost of developing and supporting these features and the extra sales that would be gained by bumping up to a 32GB base model, against the cost of the extra flash memory and the number of people who would pay for the overpriced upgrade.

      I guess Apple must have decided that the latter is slightly more that the former, and screw giving the customers a better device.

      Or possibly, maybe, JUST maybe, they figured that they could improve two systems at once (iPhone and AppleTV) by giving their Customers what amounts to Cloud-based Virtual Memory; so instead of 70% of Customers having to pay a couple of hundred dollars more for a 32GB phone "Just in case 16 GB isn't enough" (which, incidentally, but importantly, could cause unknown numbers of those Customers to choose a cheaper Android phone instead), instead they made it so you could essentially have more-or-less infinite (near-line) Storage (in iCloud), available and expandable as need be.

    23. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by macs4all · · Score: 1

      ODR sounds very like overlays: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... used in the 1970s on mainframes. Back to the future.

      And not just mainframes. Back in the day, I saw a business that ran on a PDP-8 minicomputer about the size of an IMSAI 8800 (as seen the movie War Games) with 4 KB of RAM supporting (IIRC) 10 concurrent users, and the business' custom-built COBOL-based ERP/Accounting software.

      So, as you said, everything old is new again.

    24. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Apple doesn't do things that were done before. They only invent.

      Just like Anonymous COWARDS don't regurgitate the same, tired Apple-hating memes. They only have original thoughts.

      Come out and expose your Karma like a man, or GTFO.

    25. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by macs4all · · Score: 1

      It's not just architecture, it's screen size and resolution. Imagine a game with assets for high-pixel-density screens like Retina, low density screens, big tablet screens, tiny phone screens, etc. That's a lot of space. It sounds like Apple has made it possible for devs to release one game package to the App Store, and in turn the App Store shoves across to the consumer only what assets from that package are needed for the specific device on which it's downloaded.

      Exactly.

      As the owner of a 32 GB iPad 2 with a metric buttload of Apps, I can tell you that, when the "Retina" App-Updates came out, I stopped updating a BUNCH of my Apps, simply because the bigger resources would do absolutely NOTHING for me but eat up a non-insignificant amount of my rapidly dwindling free Flash memory.

      Now, with App Slicing, if I want to update my iPad 2 to iOS 9 (which is possible; suck it, Android!), I can Update those Apps and STILL keep the majority of my free Flash memory.

      And don't talk to me about SD Card support in Android; because I hear (in fact, in this very thread) it is (or already has been) deprecated.

    26. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by macs4all · · Score: 1

      As a work-around, Apple have disabled downloading 'sliced' binaries, so instead you download full (universal) binaries. This means the backups will have the universal binaries which will work on any 'device b'.

      Which means that, right now, it's no worse than it was before, and Apple will eventually work out a protocol whereby the Device reports what it is (if it doesn't already), and iCloud delivers the correct "slicing" for that Device. This may actually cause a change in iCloud policy, wherein Apps do not "count" against your iCloud Storage quota (do they now? I don't use iCloud, so I don't really know), and the "slicing" is all done at the iCloud-Delivery-Level.

    27. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Am I missing something? I can see the answers right there on the link they supplied. There's a header with a question and then an indication that there are two answers. One answer is fairly long. The other is shorter and has a diagram. I'm 100% certain that I'm neither registered or logged into the site. I am also 100% certain that I've no browser add-ons that should be enabling me to have access. In fact, as near as I know, that's the first time I've even been to the site.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    28. Re:Can anyone explain in actual meaningful terms? by windwalkr · · Score: 2

      Anecdote:

      My previous phone was 16GB. I was coming up against the limits of that device and wanted to upgrade for my next purchase.

      I bought my current phone when it was newly released. My carrier had messed up my preorder and I was in a hurry, so I walked into an Apple Store with the intent to purchase. I didn't want the 16GB. I would have been happy with 32GB but of course they don't make them. They didn't have a 64GB in stock of the model I wanted. I walked out with a 128GB.

      That's at least one person where the existence (and/or availability) of a 32GB model would have affected 128GB sales.

  3. Re:The problem is the ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Greedy assholes want you to buy cloud space. They won't expand the memory.

  4. Re:The problem is the ... by Daemonik · · Score: 2

    If Apple enabled SD cards, how could they expect to keep selling those larger capacity phones at such a markup? SD cards cut into profits, it's why Samsung dropped them from the S6.

  5. Re:The problem is the ... by Mal-2 · · Score: 2

    If they did that, they wouldn't be able to force users to upgrade due to limited capacity. Apple is not in the business of selling microSDXC. They sell whole phones. Therefore they will do what they can to make sure people keep buying whole phones.

    --
    How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
  6. Re:...exFAT patent by MtHuurne · · Score: 2

    As much as I dislike exFAT because of the patent situation, I don't think this is the reason: iPhones have never had SD slots, not even before 64GB cards were available.

  7. Re:Sheesh by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But let me be frank - this is so goddamned fscking ridiculously friggin stupid that only a true idiot would think it was remotely an intelligent idea. Memory is cheap, so what kind of retard would want to store their applications in the fail-inevitble cloud bubble?

    Think about it. You bought an app. You think you own an app. But you just get the parts that Apple thinks you need right now, not the whole app.

    It's a brilliant late-capitalist business strategy, really. Keep a wall between your customers and the stuff your customers think they bought. And now you control the gate.

    I guess this is why, when I updated my wife's iPad to OS9.1, it insisted so hard that she have an iCloud account. And I do mean "insisted", as in "certain features of your device will not work without an iCloud account" and, "Are you SURE you want to continue without connecting to iCloud?" and "DANGER WILL ROBINSON, YOU ARE ABOUT TO MAKE THE BIGGEST MISTAKE OF YOUR FUCKING LIFE IF YOU DON"T GET YOUR iCloud ACCOUNT!"

    Fuck off, Apple. This iPad has 64gig of memory, and it doesn't need your app baloney slicer.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  8. All I saw was kill -9 by MrKaos · · Score: 1

    Which is where iphone stability comes from ;)

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  9. Live by the cloud, die by the cloud. by sethstorm · · Score: 2

    Perhaps higher capacity and SD cards aren't a bad idea after all. They don't die if your provider goes south.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  10. Re:Sheesh by MrKaos · · Score: 1

    because the cloud never fails - only we can fail the cloud.

    I failed the cloud once, luckily I wasn't sky diving.

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  11. Re:Sheesh by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

    because the cloud never fails - only we can fail the cloud.

    I failed the cloud once, luckily I wasn't sky diving.

    Say 20 Hail Cupertino's and a good act of contrition, my son.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  12. Re:Sheesh by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

    Well, GP was not talking about keeping control of stuff customers think they bought, but about the increased risk of that stuff being unavailable through technical difficulties. And I think he is right.

    Downloading only what you need for a certain device I can see working.

    But keeping even part of that stuff on the Cloud and downloading it "on demand" is a recipe for trouble. Connection failures happen, you know.

    --
    C - the footgun of programming languages
  13. Re:The problem is the ... by BronsCon · · Score: 1

    Only offer it on the highest capacity model? Someone buying that obviously cares to carry a bunch of data in their pocket, so I say let them; everyone else will buy the lower capacity models anyway.

    --
    APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
  14. Re:Sheesh by BronsCon · · Score: 1

    Also the reason $1 for 50GB of iCloud storage is no replacement for an SD card for expanded storage; even ignoring that the SD card will be cheaper over time, if you're not connected or there is a service interruption, your iCloud storage is useless; even if you are connected and the service is up, if your connection is slow or you have a single-digit-GB cap, it's neigh useless anyway.

    My Nexus 6 may lack an SD slot, but it supports USB host mode, so I can plug in an SD reader (micro, mini, full, whatever), a hard disk, hell I can plug in a keyboard and mouse if I so choose (and yes, Android provides a mouse cursor). I say it's a fair enough trade, as A) it allows the phone to be slimmer and more water resistant and B) it allows a wider range of devices to be used with the phone.

    --
    APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
  15. Re:Sheesh by sectokia · · Score: 1

    Can you plug in a hub then plug in multiple devices? Could you do a usb mouse, usb keyboard, usb drive, and usb vga adaptor?

  16. Re:Sheesh by BronsCon · · Score: 2

    Certainly, though I doubt you'd find drivers for the VGA adapter. I've had 2 SSDs attached via a hub before, to copy files between them, worked fine. A bit slower than optimal, being USB2, but it was enough to get my buddy's laptop working again without another PC handy.

    --
    APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
  17. Or they could by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    just stop charging outrageous prices for flash.

    Or *gasp*, provide a slot for external storage.

    App "slicing" is a ridiculous software solution to a problem that is rooted in greed and stupidity, not real hardware problems.

    1. Re: Or they could by Wovel · · Score: 1

      So you believe downloading application resources you will never need is a good idea. Got it.

    2. Re: Or they could by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Lets see here, download resources you don't need, or come up with an error prone and overly complex solution. Being that I believe all good engineering adhears to the KISS principal, yeah, I believe downloading resources you will never need is a better idea. Even better, if they can separate them so easily, why not just make a phone version and a tablet version and then send you all of the one you need? Even simpler, no need for cloud, wonderful.

    3. Re: Or they could by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      You assume that a) you'll always be in a situation where you can download things instantly and on demand, and b) that you can decide ahead of time, with perfect accuracy, what you'll need and when.

      For example: I bought, and use, the TomTom app for my iPhone, rather than the built-in maps app. One big reason? It's all there, predownloaded. Sure, I'll probably never need, say, the California map. on the other hand, I am safe and secure in the knowledge that, anywhere in North America, I have a reasonably up-to-date and accurate map available to me. I never have to worry about being in the middle of nowhere with crap cellular data, and being unable to load a map.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  18. Re:Oh dear god no ... by Princeofcups · · Score: 2

    Are they seriously thinking about a scheme in which your device is like needing to have virtual memory? And your device has to "page out" parts of it?

    So basically they're morons who think everybody has unlimited data and they can keep re-downloading the same shit all the time?

    What a stupid damned feature.

    Please reread the feature. I do not think you are understanding what they are trying to do, which actually does make some sense. Although it is a pretty lame excuse to keep selling a phone with 16GB.

    --
    The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
  19. Re:Oh dear god no ... by Sqr(twg) · · Score: 4, Informative

    Nope. That's not what this is. It's about not downloading stuff you don't need, like the iPad-size bitmaps when using an iPhone.

  20. Re:The problem is the ... by gl4ss · · Score: 1

    for cloud backups (afaik anyhow) yeah, people are getting charged for the size.

    why would someone need to backup apps they got from store? if it gets pulled. legitimate use case.

    --
    world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  21. Re:Oh dear god no ... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    No it's saying you don't need the graphics for a button which is only shown on a iPad if you're using the app on an iPhone. The app only downloads the assets needed for your specific device.

  22. Re:The problem is the ... by Maritz · · Score: 1

    That would be more advantageous to the customer than Apple.

    --
    I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
  23. Re:Sheesh by MrKaos · · Score: 1

    Say 20 Hail Cupertino's and a good act of contrition, my son.

    I pray in the house of the mountain veiw, I know not of your heathen ways.

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  24. Re:Oh dear god no ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Uh, you go reread the feature. The whole App Thinning thing has multiple parts, and one of the parts works EXACTLY like gstoddart explains (on demand resources): it downloads resources "as they're needed" and then deletes them "when they're no longer needed" meaning that you'd better have a very large data plan or you're going to find yourself out quite a bit of data as parts of the app are swapped out.

    The rest of the system simply doesn't download resources that the app will never use, otherwise called "common sense" otherwise called "why the hell does an iPhone app have iPad resources in the first place?!"

  25. Re:The problem is the ... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

    SD cards don't necessarily cut into profits. For example, retailers love them because they can get a good mark-up on them, so are more likely to push customers towards phones that accept them. Customers who are concerned about memory size but don't want to pay for an upgrade now or think the price is too high might buy your product instead.

    What really killed cards off were the stupid race to make phones 0.01mm thinner than last year's and the rush to push customers into the cloud.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  26. Re:The problem is the ... by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

    I never said Apple was putting SD cards in phones. I said that they don't want YOU to put an SD card in their phones because that would compete with their planned obsolescence model.

    --
    How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
  27. Grandfathered unlimited data by tepples · · Score: 1

    Early iPhone plans had unlimited data, and once AT&T introduced data caps, people fought to keep their grandfathered plans.

    1. Re:Grandfathered unlimited data by rsborg · · Score: 1

      I've still got my grandfathered plan. Keeping it didn't involve 'fighting' at all. In fact, I recently got unlimited nation wide calling, too.

      Hope you like what you have. Here at t-Mobile, I get:
      * Free tethering
      * Unlimited nationwide calls/text
      * Unlimited roaming (4G/text/call) in CA and MX
      * Unlimited calls to 70 countries including landline and cellphones ($10 total for all 10 lines on my plan)
      * Unlimited 3G data roaming in 140 countries
      * Data Stash (unlike ATT's data roaming) - so on months where I travel a lot, I still have LTE well over your monthly cap of 22GB. Other months I don't even use 2GB and accrue the rest.
      * HD Voice since 2013
      * Wifi calling since last year.
      * Music freedom - all data for streaming music (almost all providers) doesn't use LTE quota.
      * All my lines get 2.5GB min base, and I upped to 4.5GB+Stash for $10.

      (I'm probably missing some of the uncarrier benefits that have accrued).

      I pay $245/mo (incl. all fees/etc).

      The history is that since 2013 I have paid ZERO overage. I've paid for some calls from Europe when I visited, but I also had free data there too. My history with both ATT and VZ has been at least one month of overage every 3mo or so - and that's with me watching the bills like a hawk.

      The billing is so constant, I just ask my family/friends who are on the plan to pay $150/yr for their subscription + BYOPh and it's been smooth sailing for all of us.

      TMobile is like being in 2005 and having gmail when everyone else had hotmail/yahoomail. Makes me a bit smug, to be honest.

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
  28. Re:The problem is the ... by rjstanford · · Score: 2

    Actually, your app images aren't part of your iCloud backup. They get re-downloaded separately after the fact. The vast majority of space taken up by peoples backups are pictures.

    --
    You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
  29. Re:Oh dear god no ... by rjstanford · · Score: 1

    Its making it easy for people like game manufacturers to have dynamic content.

    Think about it like Netflix. Every couple of hours of using their app they have to download a few gigabytes of information, because keeping it around just in case you happened to need it would be silly. With some modern games, its basically the same problem with the same solution.

    Its not a conspiracy. They're not out to get you. Relax.

    --
    You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
  30. Re: App slicing? by rjstanford · · Score: 2

    even if your app and another app use the same version of the same library both need their own copy and you can't upgrade just the library. (Delta updates? What are those?)

    The cost of that approach is a relatively small amount of memory (after all, most applications don't share most non-system things with most other applications). The benefit of that approach is never, ever experiencing DLL conflicts, and having the capability to have single-package applications that don't even need to have an installer for the most part. It turns out to be a pretty good tradeoff.

    --
    You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
  31. Mainframes all over again by spire3661 · · Score: 1

    Didnt we learn 30-50 years ago that thin clients suck?

    --
    Good-bye
  32. Re:The problem is the ... by macs4all · · Score: 1

    16GB limitation... why not add a card slot to expand memory ....to 128gb++ fucking retards.

    Because you have to CARRY the fucking cards everywhere you go. And they are notoriously failure-prone.

    Even though I hate "Cloud" stuff, Apple's end-end encrypted storage, at $1/mo for 50 GB, is so close to "free", that the convenience it provides, as opposed to the "Damn! I left that SD card on my desk at work!", far outweighs the once-in-a-decade that I wished my iPhone had a slot.

    And with aftermarket Lightning-to-USB cables being $3 on Amazon, reading/writing content from/to an SD card is as near as the nearest laptop.

    So, I actually think it is a well-thought-out usability decision.

  33. Re:The problem is the ... by macs4all · · Score: 1

    An SD card slot would be even better.

    Mods: That ISN'T "Informative". The Parent was expressing an OPINION, not INFORMATION.

  34. Re:The problem is the ... by macs4all · · Score: 1

    An SD card isn't an objectively better solution to limited local storage?

    That wasn't my point to the Mods. My point was that the comment wasn't "Informative". It was merely "Argumentative" (as it was an OPINION, not a FACT). I suppose it INFORMED us of the poster's OPINION; but I don't think that was what is meant by INFORMATIVE (even the famous "I like to lick butts" is more INFORMATIVE than "SD Cards are more betterer, hur hur").

    It's less expensive, faster, works everywhere, and has fewer points of failure.

    I am not sure about the "Less Expensive" part. As far as "Works Everywhere", I'm not sure that is true if we're talking about a private data structure such as an iTunes Library. Fewer points of failure? It would take a very serious analysis of both to determine that. "Cloud" certainly has less mechanical points of failure.

    Any particular reason you thing cloud storage is better suited for this particular application, or why you wouldn't want an SD card option?

    It's not that I wouldn't want an SD card option; but I think that it doesn't make as much sense for a mobile device as you might think, and, IMHO, it is actually more of a 1980's "wallet full of floppies" solution than a "always available" "offsite backup" sort of a 21st Century "near-line storage" solution.

    Lose/break/Zap your SD card? Done. No backup? So sorry for you!

    Leave your SD card at work? Go back to work (if you can even get in), or wait until the next work day. Sucks if it contains that code you were working on. So sorry for you!

    Run out of storage on your SD Card? Hopefully you have another WITH you, or that you have some files you can Delete. If not, Sucks to be you!

    And like that...

    Why doesn't Apple offer and SD card option? As they're omnibenevolent, how does that omission help their users?

    Apple has always been "parsimonious" with their ports. Things have to get to the "60% of users would use this regularly" point (guessing) before they are even CONSIDERED. Apple has obviously decided that Cloud Storage makes more sense for a limited-storage, portable device (and in the case of AppleTV a desktop device) than SD cards. Do I wish my iPhone had a micro SD slot? Yeah, probably; but with 128 GB of internal storage, I would probably never use it. And quite frankly, even with my old 32 GB iPhone, I had a BUNCH of Apps (over a 100), a BUNCH of a BUNCH of Pictures/Videos (about 3 thousand), and enough of my music collection to listen non-stop for several days, and STILL had several GB left (and I didn't use iCloud, either).

    So, I'm not sure how many live's worth of data people expect to have at their fingertips; but I guess I just don't get it.

    Maybe if I was away from my laptop for a few months, I might pine for some of my other data; but really?

  35. Re:The problem is the ... by macs4all · · Score: 1

    I never said Apple was putting SD cards in phones. I said that they don't want YOU to put an SD card in their phones because that would compete with their planned obsolescence model.

    Citation, please.

    It has NOTHING, repeat, NOTHING to do with "planned obsolescence". I would bet that most people never even get CLOSE to maxing out the memory of their phones, if they are at least 32 GB. 16 GB is the only case where I would say that someone might run out of room.

    But then, I'm not "everybody" (boy, would THAT be confusing!)...

  36. Re:Sheesh by macs4all · · Score: 1

    Think about it. You bought an app. You think you own an app. But you just get the parts that Apple thinks you need right now, not the whole app.

    It's a brilliant late-capitalist business strategy, really. Keep a wall between your customers and the stuff your customers think they bought. And now you control the gate.

    Whoa! I think you need another layer of tinfoil on that hat!!!

    So, Apple comes up with a strategy whereby you can avoid the ever-increasing effects of "App Bloat", by on-the-fly delivering only the pieces-parts of the App that you are actually going to USE at that time, and ALL you can think of is how Apple MUST have some nefarious plan to SOMEHOW fuck you out of the "rest of the App" that will do NOTHING for you but WASTE MEMORY?

    Jeezus, you're sick. STFU.

  37. Re:Sheesh by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    So, Apple comes up with a strategy whereby you can avoid the ever-increasing effects of "App Bloat", by on-the-fly delivering only the pieces-parts of the App that you are actually going to USE at that time, and ALL you can think of is how Apple MUST have some nefarious plan to SOMEHOW fuck you out of the "rest of the App" that will do NOTHING for you but WASTE MEMORY?

    Why doesn't Apple do that "on-the-fly" delivery of only the pieces of the App that I'm actually going to use from the 128gig SD card I put into the slot on my iPad?

    Oh wait, I think I know the answer to that, macs4all. Never mind.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  38. Re:Sheesh by macs4all · · Score: 1

    My Nexus 6 may lack an SD slot, but it supports USB host mode, so I can plug in an SD reader (micro, mini, full, whatever), a hard disk, hell I can plug in a keyboard and mouse if I so choose (and yes, Android provides a mouse cursor). I say it's a fair enough trade, as A) it allows the phone to be slimmer and more water resistant and B) it allows a wider range of devices to be used with the phone.

    Since Apple now has a Lightning to USB cable, I wouldn't be at ALL surprised if iOS doesn't support USB Host Mode at this point, too. Actually, it DOES support USB Host Mode, but, from what I am seeing, the issue is POWER. It seems like if the device is parsimonious with power, it can work. I don't know enough about the USB protocol to comment on whether interposing a powered USB hub would help, or even if it would work with iOS.

    And as far as iPads go, there are several aftermarket "Camera Connection Kit" dongles that have SD card readers and USB ports built in. So, it is possible on an iPad; but not on an iPhone.

  39. Re:The problem is the ... by narcc · · Score: 1

    Lose/break/Zap your SD card? Done. No backup? So sorry for you!

    My SD card sits under the battery. They're not akin to floppy disks, in that you'll be constantly swapping them in and out. Typically, users have just one and install it when they first get a phone. It's not something you leave on your desk or keep in a large collection. For the most part, they're a transparent extension of your phones built-in storage. Photo and video apps typically use the SD card by default, for example.

    People run out of space on iDevices constantly. Either from using apps like iMovie or just from having a lot of games. You might not need a lot of space, but other people certainly do!

    Remember that nightmare iOS update that required you free up 5gb? A lot of other users do. Had iOS users had access to cheap, expandable, local storage, it wouldn't have been big news.

    Why is local storage more important than cloud storage? Well, people pay a lot of money for mobile data. Network transmission is painfully slow and unreliable. What if Apples servers are down? (They have a pretty poor track-record there.) What if you don't have a connection? What if you're over your data limit? How do you manage what is and is not local? (Are users prepared for that?)

    So, I'm not sure how many live's worth of data people expect to have at their fingertips; but I guess I just don't get it.

    You can fill up a 16gb iPhone pretty quick with a few popular games. Even faster if you use it for video. I've seen more than one iPhone filled to the brim. Just because it isn't an issue for you doesn't mean it's not a problem for many other people.

    --
    Required reading for internet skeptics
  40. Re:Sheesh by BronsCon · · Score: 1

    I've had luck with a USB keyboard on my iPad Air, after dismissing several "unsupported device" dialogs. No such luck with mass storage devices and definitely not a mouse. I understand there are some instrument controllers that work, though; I haven't tried my M-Audio gear yet.

    --
    APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
  41. Re:Sheesh by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
    Amazing my post was modded "Offtopic"

    Looks like even the cloud isn't the cloud.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  42. Re:The problem is the ... by Lord+Flipper · · Score: 1

    My point was that the comment wasn't "Informative". It was merely "Argumentative" ...

    Aha! You sound like you understand the moderation system. I get mod points all the time (or every three days it seems), but I generally mod things as "Interesting," assuming I find the point or idea interesting, whether I agree with it or not.

    But I am very curious. What might be the easiest distinction between "Insightful," and "Informative?" And, where does "Interesting" fit in the scheme of things?

    If you have time I'd seriously appreciate guidance, or even better (timewise) a link to guidelines up here, if they exist. Thanks, either way!

  43. I'll say it by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

    Apple is becoming another ibm, microsoft, now apple. Used to be cool, cool no more.

  44. People have been saying that forever. by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    Apple is becoming another ibm, microsoft, now apple. Used to be cool, cool no more.

    Could have been copied and pasted from a 20 year old John Dvorak article.

    1. Re:People have been saying that forever. by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

      Yes, and what happened 20 years ago? Jobs came back. Then they became cool again after he cleaned it up.

      Flaming asshole, however he had vision.

      So comment still applies and is timely. A year from now it'll be a captain obvious commercial unless they get some better leadership. I hope they do. I have a bunch of their equipment.

    2. Re:People have been saying that forever. by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Except: the same pinhole vision was applied to everything Steve did since he returned to Apple.

      • Buying Next, his own company? Not only can Apple not come up with their own ideas anymore, they're just lining Steve's pockets!

        The iMac doesn't have a serial or ADB port! They're screwing over their customers and forcing them to buy new devices !

        No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame.

        Don't Hold it Wrong!

      And so on, and so on. SHDD (Same Hatorade, Different Day).

  45. Re:Sheesh by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    Oh wait, I think I know the answer to that, macs4all. Never mind.

    Nice sarcasm, but I don't see where it explains why you want binaries for other devices to take up space on your iPad. You're acting as if functionality is being stripped out when that's obviously not the case.

  46. Re:Sheesh by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    You're acting as if functionality is being stripped out when that's obviously not the case.

    If parts of your app are being stored in the "iCloud" and you happen to lose your connection, then functionality is most definitely being stripped out.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  47. Re:The problem is the ... by macs4all · · Score: 1

    My point was that the comment wasn't "Informative". It was merely "Argumentative" ...

    Aha! You sound like you understand the moderation system. I get mod points all the time (or every three days it seems), but I generally mod things as "Interesting," assuming I find the point or idea interesting, whether I agree with it or not.

    But I am very curious. What might be the easiest distinction between "Insightful," and "Informative?" And, where does "Interesting" fit in the scheme of things?

    If you have time I'd seriously appreciate guidance, or even better (timewise) a link to guidelines up here, if they exist. Thanks, either way!

    I get Mod points every few days, too. most of the time I just let them expire.

    Personally, I seriously doubt ther are any "guidelines" for what constitutes "Informative", vs "Insightful", "Flamebait" vs "Troll", etc.

    And worse yet, it seems that a fair amount of "Moderation" is abused by people who simply disagree with the poster's choice of Platform, World View, or other ridiculous metric, and so, the Moderation Scores are, at best, a pretty weak indicator of the actual "worth" of the Post.

    Sorry I can't help you more; but as the Recipient of many Karmic Attacks by Mods who disagree with my choice of platform (or sometimes, just my Username), I think the Moderation system is mostly a cruel joke, used by immature, small-minded idiots, who use it mostly to express "Disagreement" than anything else.

    As far as a published "guide", I have never seen one; and even if it existed, if you used same, I can say with utter certainty that you would be the ONLY one, LOL!

  48. Re:Sheesh by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    That's true of any "cloud" based software. This isn't one of those complaints that only one company, is it?

  49. Re:The problem is the ... by Lord+Flipper · · Score: 1

    Sorry I can't help you more; but

    Thanks anyway. I usually let a lot of mine expire, also. I'll carry on in my sometimes-interested fashion. I do, though, make a point of up-modding some of the "down" mods that are clearly based on grudges or some misguided attempt at retribution or whatever it is that those people think they're "accomplishing."

  50. Re:The problem is the ... by macs4all · · Score: 1

    Sorry I can't help you more; but

    Thanks anyway. I usually let a lot of mine expire, also. I'll carry on in my sometimes-interested fashion. I do, though, make a point of up-modding some of the "down" mods that are clearly based on grudges or some misguided attempt at retribution or whatever it is that those people think they're "accomplishing."

    Yeah, that's kinda what I do, too.

    Not to be all Holier-Than-Thou; but I can honestly say that, so far, I have been able to resist the temptation to devolve into the "Punish Moderation" Game. But, after watching my Karma go from Excellent to essentially non-existent in one day... TWICE, it has been sorely tempting on more than one occasion!