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Stop Taking All the Fun Out of Science

HughPickens.com writes: Heidi Stevens writes in the Chicago Tribune that according to NASA astronaut Mae Jemison schools treat science like the class where fun goes to die. "Kids come out of the chute liking science. They ask, 'How come? Why? What's this?' They pick up stuff to examine it. We might not call that science, but it's discovering the world around us," says Jemison. "Once we get them in school, we turn science from discovery and hands-on to something you're supposed to do through rote memorization." But science doesn't have to be that way says Jemison. Especially in the elementary school years. "When you have teachers saying, 'I don't have enough time for hands-on activities,' we need to rethink the way we do education," says Jemison. "The drills we do, where you're telling kids to memorize things, don't actually work. What works is engaging them and letting them do things and discover things." Jemison has teamed up with Bayer to advance science literacy across the United States by emphasizing the importance of hands-on, inquiry-based learning opportunities in public schools. Bayer announced recently that it will provide 1 million hands-on science experiences for kids by 2020. "Science is around us everywhere," says Jemison. Farming is science. Cooking is science. Even styling hair involves science. "When we go to the hairdresser, we want her to know something about pH balance," says Jemison with a laugh. "Boy, do we ever want her to know something about pH balance!"

47 of 246 comments (clear)

  1. School isn't there to enrich lives by rsilvergun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    it's there to get people ready for the workforce. That's why we have bells and it's why we start it early when research shows kids need more sleep. I always find it annoying to see people who can't or won't acknowledge that virtually everything in our society exists to serve the ruling class. You'll never get anywhere with reform until you acknowledge and deal with that basic root problem. It's why FDR was so successful and it's what Eisenhower was afraid of when he talked about the Military Industrial Complex...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:School isn't there to enrich lives by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 4, Informative

      If kids need more sleep, wouldn't it be sufficient to go to bed sooner?

      No. We have times that are natural for us to go to sleep and to wake up, regulated mainly by our perception of sunlight. This is shown by studies of shift workers (Working nights and sleeping days is very bad for your health).

      While the natural bedtime and waking time is different for each person, studies have also shown that both, on the whole, get later for teens (and then get earlier again as we age). It really would be better if high school students could sleep in. Making them be at school at 7 AM is not good. Your point that it was made for the convenience of the working parents is quite true, but doesn't make it any better physically for the kids.

    2. Re:School isn't there to enrich lives by chipschap · · Score: 2

      Somehow, though, in our society --- and this has persisted for centuries, it seems --- there is the idea that getting up early is somehow meritorious and more "moral" than getting up later. Maybe it started with the needs of an agricultural society, but today is seems really misplaced. I get up at 5 am and you get up at 9 so I'm a better person than you are? I hardly think so.

    3. Re:School isn't there to enrich lives by sjames · · Score: 4, Informative

      Again, no. Small children naturally wake by the crack of dawn and are ready to go soon after. Teens naturally wake later. They can force themselves up earlier given sufficient motivation, but they will not be ready to learn at that time.

    4. Re:School isn't there to enrich lives by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yeah, 8:45 AM or even 9 AM was usual for me too, but that was a long time ago. Most of the suburbs around the DC area had opening bells for high school of 7:25 AM until just recently (like this school year) when they moved them 20 minutes or more later, largely because of the research I just cited.

    5. Re:School isn't there to enrich lives by quetwo · · Score: 2

      Both high schools I attended started between 7:15am and 7:30am. One was located in Northern Illinois, and the other was located in Western Michigan. I graduated in 1999, and I don't think either has changed much. Middle school had classes starting at 7:05am and elementary school was at 7:45.

    6. Re:School isn't there to enrich lives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What a load of a crap (do you misunderstand every story you post to, or just a troll that takes a long time to get around to responding to stories?). Kids get lots more homework today than we did, and than my parent's generation. Too many teachers are trying to substitute quantity of busy work for quality work. There are places where repetition is helpful, and other places where it becomes a waste, and additionally destroys the kid's motivation and respect for education. Doing writing and math exercises can help introduce those concepts way better than just being told about them. But assigning a hundred multiplication exercises because a student couldn't get a word problem doesn't help them learn how to do word problems, even if it is much easier to assign.

      When my wife and I were kids, we learned about computers by having some time to mess around with them, before getting into formal classes. The school our kids were previously at made it come down between a choice between getting good grades and having any outside interests. To paraphrase one teacher, "If you kid wants to learn about computers, they should take the CS course when old enough and should have enough concentration to avoid computers until then." It is the same mentality of teachers that hate students who read ahead, "Ok, if your kid is going to read extra material, just make sure they don't talk about it to other kids." The last straw was when they brought us in to talk about the importance of good grades when saying little about actual education, because our kids missed a couple days after winter break due to a family trip overseas where we got our kids to learn parts of a foreign language and lots of history.

      Learning takes effort and work. But there is a difference between some homework, and so much busy work that education stops. Kids need to learn about things beyond the domain of their teachers. Teachers not giving students work is also not a viable option. Asking for balance is not screaming about making the kids do any work.

    7. Re:School isn't there to enrich lives by TapeCutter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Small children naturally wake by the crack of dawn and are ready to go soon after.

      It starts happening again when you're in your 50's, but the only place you are going is the toilet.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    8. Re:School isn't there to enrich lives by RabidReindeer · · Score: 2

      Somehow, though, in our society --- and this has persisted for centuries, it seems --- there is the idea that getting up early is somehow meritorious and more "moral" than getting up later. Maybe it started with the needs of an agricultural society, but today is seems really misplaced. I get up at 5 am and you get up at 9 so I'm a better person than you are? I hardly think so.

      It's because until about 1900, the majority of the populace were farmers, which lacking some serious candlepower is a job that has to be mostly done in daylight. So to get the most number of working hours out of a day means rising with the chickens and working until the sun set.

      Of course, that meant that once the sun had set, most of your time was your own and in more extreme climes the "hard" work was something you could only do when it wasn't too cold to grow anything.

      The first factories were also likely to operate mostly courtesy of what light came in through the (usually plentiful) windows, so likewise our Captains of Industry wanted the workers filing in at dawn and working until the light faded to uselessness.

      Factories were the where the idea of having slack times began to die. Artificial lighting meant that you could extend the work day. Between the two, coupled with the false, but popular idea that "the more you work, the more you get ahead", we kept to the early-rising concept and added more work on top of it.

      Realistically, artificial light means that you could work an 8-hour day starting any time, and, of course, factory shifts often do. But the general pattern remains from its agricultural roots. The rulers didn't need such a schedule, nor did the clergy or the scholars - at least the ones who had patrons to supply them with candles.

  2. oblig. by phantomfive · · Score: 2
    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  3. Science Requires Effort by mlookaba · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Unless we want to re-invent the wheel over and over, it's necessary that people have a basic understanding of the work that has been done in the past.

    The problem isn't how hard it is to memorize facts. The human brain is capable of memorizing a lot of facts. The problem is that (US specifically) kids are just too lazy to do it. They have the ability, but not the desire. (Source: My wife is a high school science teacher of 30 years).

    Let's address the real issue and stop trying to give participation trophies.

    1. Re:Science Requires Effort by PvtVoid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem isn't how hard it is to memorize facts. The human brain is capable of memorizing a lot of facts. The problem is that (US specifically) kids are just too lazy to do it.

      What, exactly, is useful about memorizing facts, in a world where any fact you want is at your fingertips on demand? Being usefully conversant in facts is not about memorization, it's about understanding relationships between things. Understanding how stuff works. The facts you need will be memorized along the way.

    2. Re:Science Requires Effort by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What, exactly, is useful about memorizing facts, in a world where any fact you want is at your fingertips on demand? Being usefully conversant in facts is not about memorization, it's about understanding relationships between things. Understanding how stuff works.

      I agree with you that the "understanding relationships" etc. is more important in being an educated person than memorized rote knowledge.

      The problem, however, is that one actually needs something in your brain to "understand relationships" between. You can't "understand how stuff works" if you don't even know there is "stuff" to begin with.

      I'm absolutely NOT arguing for lots of rote memorization. But I think a common error (and an increasingly serious problem) today is the idea that memorization is worthless because... well, "Google can answer it." Yeah, that's great if you're looking up some atomic fact. But what if finding an answer to a problem depends on connecting seemingly unrelated atomic facts? If they are both in your brain, you may be able to figure it out. But if not, you're out of luck (unless someone has solved that exact problem before and posted it on the internet).

      Traditional specialization in a career, for example, usually required adaptability. If you were a mechanic or a machinist or whatever, having 25 years of experience wasn't just about making fewer mistakes -- it was about having a brain full of knowledge that could make such connections when needed. That often included a lot of obscure facts derived from experience... "Oh, don't even bother trying that part on that model, because it uses X and although they say it's different from Y, both the mechanisms on based on principle Z."

      Memorization can SOMETIMES be a way to fast-track understanding and make those subsequent connections easier to make. Memorization for the sake of memorization is stupid, but if you're memorizing information that you can actually use on a regular basis, it might actually be helpful in doing stuff like you say: "understanding relationships between things" requires knowing something about "things."

      The facts you need will be memorized along the way.

      That does tend to happen when you use information frequently. But sometimes it can actually be helpful to force oneself to KNOW stuff in advance. (I can't believe I actually need to argue for this....) And sometimes you don't know what you might need to know, and knowing SOMETHING that is potentially relevant can give you an advantage over someone else who just has to blindly Google things rather than actually knowing anything.

      In medieval times, when books were expensive and scarce, there used to be an entire "art of memory," a method which facilitated memorization of long passages of writings and even entire books. There were drawings showing people "eating books" too -- this was the symbolism given to the act of memorization, because once one had these complete texts in one's brain, it allows a much more thorough "digestion" of the ideas and contents of these texts.

      I'm not saying that we should go back to that. But there's something different about knowledge that is actually in your brain, and memorization can sometimes be a useful TOOL to get it there.

    3. Re:Science Requires Effort by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Informative

      What, exactly, is useful about memorizing facts, in a world where any fact you want is at your fingertips on demand?

      Because there may come a time where they aren't.

      Interesting fact: Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein and Francis Bacon were all totally shit at using Google.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re:Science Requires Effort by serviscope_minor · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think though that one naturally memorizes stuff. If you keep having to make use of a fact and keep having to look it up, after not especially long you commit it to memory automatically. The trouble with just mindless rote memorization that it's awfully easy to memorize wrong without understanding, awfully easy to have a list of facts but no idea how to use them and it's boring as all hell and guaranteed to put off the majority of students.

      Do, rather than memorize and the memorization will come naturally.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    5. Re:Science Requires Effort by turbidostato · · Score: 3, Informative

      "What, exactly, is useful about memorizing facts"

      They are the bricks to build comprehension.

      "in a world where any fact you want is at your fingertips on demand?"

      Facts outside your brain are of no value. In order to get value as nodes to tie connections in between you need to already have them in your brain.

      "The facts you need will be memorized along the way."

      Are you sure?

      Just like Homer's use of epithets basically made them into a single substantive, it seems USA is changing "memory" into "rotten memory" as if it were a single word. It isn't: memory is a most useful tool, and exercising it is only good for growing minds. Change your education system to avoid rote memorization but don't make the mistake of thinking that all memorization is rotten.

    6. Re:Science Requires Effort by gweihir · · Score: 2

      I am a scientist and I can assure you memorizing facts is almost completely a waste of time. Or rather, it is worse than that. The problem is that there are far too many fact for even a basic selection to be memorized. But trying detracts from the all-critical skill of critical thinking and being able to interpret facts quickly that you have looked up. Drilling kids to memorize facts at best qualifies them to be factory-workers doing repetitive things.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    7. Re:Science Requires Effort by UnderCoverPenguin · · Score: 2

      When I was a kid, in my school's science classes, we did lots of hands-on stuff. Did we "re-invent the _____". Yes. So what? We learned how to "do science" by doing science ourselves. And I don't mean just mindless following directions. We started with describing things we "discovered" as we went through our days. Then the concept of doing simple tests to learn more about "every day" things. We were even encouraged to figure out how to test things, so were starting to do scientific experiments. Yes, some procedures had to be given to us. And, all the while we were doing this "fun stuff", the teachers managed to slip in lots of background facts. Guess what? We actually remembered - not just the things we did, but the background stuff as well.

      Yes, all those facts facts we learned are important to have learned. And yes, we couldn't possibly learn more than a tiny fraction of them purely by hands-on science. By learning them along side the hands on things we did do, we could actually "connect" those facts with the real world. And, therefore, understand them.

      Otherwise, they are just items of information to be coughed up on command.

      Coughing up formulas from, for example, the "CRC Book of Standard Formulas" may be faster, but if you can't derive the formulas you need, how can you be sure you are using them correctly?

      --
      Don't try to out wierd me, three-eyes. I get stranger things than you, free with my breakfast cereal. --Zaphod Beeblebr
    8. Re:Science Requires Effort by dbIII · · Score: 2

      Yes, but if you don't even know the key words or what they mean google is not going to help. You need at least something to start with.
      It's especially clear here when people way out of their depth link spam you with stuff that in no way supports their argument. They googled what they thought they meant, found something different and didn't know enough to notice.

    9. Re:Science Requires Effort by sjames · · Score: 2

      Nor is anyone willing to be reasonable in the offer of license.

  4. Not everything is fun by Yergle143 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Maybe we should stop raising children to think that everything is fun.
    Impactful science is a heck of a lot of work.
    Guess it's more about doing rather than viewing.
    Listening to a musician is fun. Learning to play is not.

    1. Re:Not everything is fun by PvtVoid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Maybe we should stop raising children to think that everything is fun.
      Impactful science is a heck of a lot of work.

      Yes, but it's also more fun than just about anything else if you're doing it right. The great breakthroughs in science, as in art, come from minds that are full of play.

    2. Re:Not everything is fun by Kohath · · Score: 2

      How common are "great breakthroughs"? Does it really make sense to pretend every kid is going to make "great breakthroughs"? If you really want to encourage more "great breakthroughs", you're going to have to stop treating the 1 in 1000 kid as just another member of the herd.

    3. Re:Not everything is fun by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      just as important is getting the other 999 kids to understand why science and its applications are wothwhile

      Why? How do you measure "important"?

      Because they can vote? Because if even two of them can find their way out of the door they've outvoted the one with a clue?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re: Not everything is fun by J-1000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Spoken like a horrible teacher. Your problem is that you interpret fun to mean unimportant, easy, or silly. In fact, fun as it is used here simply means that the student discovers and embraces the desire to do it. Learning to play music isn't fun? That attitude is how you become a crappy musician.

  5. Science isn't a game by mattwarden · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Science isn't supposed to be fun. It's a method and its rigorous. The problem isn't that the fun is being taken or of science. The problem is the the "I Fucking Love Science" crowd has popularized science among people who do not understand science. Science is treated like a religion, and the philosophy of science and especially its skepticism is missing in the discussion, covered instead by "omg isn't this science looking thing cool". Pseudoscience abounds. Looks at nutrition science. You can't even tell anymore what is actual science and what is total nonsense based on anecdote... because the methods are almost the same.

    1. Re:Science isn't a game by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Science isn't supposed to be fun. It's a method and its rigorous.

      Scientific education can very well be fun. The best way to convince people ignorant of science that the scientific method is useful is by doing exploratory exercises with them (often "fun") and then gradually introducing rigor to show them how scientific methods work better.

      I speak as someone who has taught high-school science. One of the first activities I would do with physics students was to give them a few different types of pendula and a stopwatch. I would divide them into groups and tell them to come up with a way of predicting what the period should be.

      That's about all the instructions I gave.

      They'd get a few days of this -- I'd bring the class together at the end of each period, and we'd talk about what they had discovered. Hmm -- the mass of the weight at the end of the string didn't seem to matter. The initial angle didn't seem to make much of a difference either. Etc.

      I'd walk around the room in each class and gradually give suggestions and hints on better ways to collect and organize data, answer questions, provide additional equipment upon request, etc.

      By the end of a week, most of them had learned more about the scientific method than many physics students do in a year (if they only performed calculations and solved equations). And most of them found it interesting -- it was a puzzle to solve, a physical thing that they were expected to figure out how it worked. Once one group figured out that graphing their data might help, all of sudden someone would realize it was a parabola... and pretty soon they could come up with an equation.

      Exploratory science is essential for education -- that's how little kids learn. But many of them have is stomped out of them by middle school, forced to sit in desks and learn things by rote or by doing dozens of repetitive exercises. There is certainly a place for memorization and repetition, but there's no reason why science can't also include fun exploratory activities.

      You can talk about the definition of a "theory" or "hypothesis" or whatever until you're blue in the face, but nothing beats making kids actually have to DO IT.

      Science is treated like a religion, and the philosophy of science and especially its skepticism is missing in the discussion, covered instead by "omg isn't this science looking thing cool".

      And this is precisely the problem with science education that isn't fun and exploratory in nature. If kids spend years sitting in science classrooms being dictated to and told the "facts" of science, when and how exactly are they supposed to acquire the skills to form and evaluate their own hypotheses with appropriate skepticism? If they never try to do it, how would you expect people to be able to do it regarding other science they encounter in the world in their lives?

      Of course those sorts of skills are hard to test on things like standardized tests, so teachers in many public schools feel like they don't have time to actually train kids in the actual process of DOING science, rather than memorizing facts ABOUT it.

      Pseudoscience abounds. Looks at nutrition science. You can't even tell anymore what is actual science and what is total nonsense based on anecdote... because the methods are almost the same.

      I'm not sure precisely what you're referencing. Nutrition science, properly speaking, is NOT based on "anecdote" more than anything else -- it requires data collection, control groups, data analysis, etc.

      But the big problem with much of science -- and not just nutrition, but medicine in general, and psychology, and most "social science" (increasingly even harder sciences) -- is the substitution of (badly done) statistical procedures for any semblance of experimental judgment. We now live in a world where we act as though simple statistics can "do science" for us -- and we have all the thin

    2. Re:Science isn't a game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Science isn't supposed to be fun.

      Speaking as someone with a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and who is currently working in a scientific laboratory (as in, it's Sunday afternoon and I'm literally sitting at my desk in lab while I type this), this statement comes as a surprise to me.

      I definitely didn't choose it for my health (viz. I'm working in lab on a Sunday afternoon), and the money certainly isn't all that great. "Fame and fortune" are not really in the cards, either (there's no Kaley Cuoco knocking on my door) - the most I can hope for is respect among my peer group in the rather narrow field I'm in. Given the current science funding climate and the abundance of Ph.D.s in my field, job certainty also isn't all that grand either.

      So why am I doing it? Because I enjoy it. Because there is immense satisfaction in staring the world in the face and wrestling knowledge from it's byzantine grasp. Is science a laugh a minute and all excitement? Certainly not. It can be slow, tedious, and at points soul crushing. I have yet to meet a scientist who doesn't look at their time as a Ph.D. candidate and think that most of it was a pointless waste. And still ... "third time pays for all", as they say, and the good times outweigh the bad. It *is* enjoyable, and any time I forget that, I just need to go to a seminar where a colleague is presenting their latest research, and I'm reminded about how fun and interesting this whole enterprise really is.

      So I, as a scientist, completely reject your statement that "science isn't supposed to be fun". If you're dong it right, it *is* fun and it *should* be. But it's fun in the same way that playing sports is fun - you have moment of glory in the game, but tempered by hard work and perseverance during practice, with an underlying satisfaction about doing a job right. It's not nonstop excitement, but then neither is anything else in the world.

      I certainly agree that the "I Fucking Love Science" crowd really doesn't understand science -- but in part that's due to the very way we're teaching science that's being decried in the article. Science is presented as amazing knowledge bequeathed upon the world by mysterious adepts. The "How come? Why? What's this?" attitude which is really the core of science is replaced by "Thus sayeth SCIENCE!" proclamations. Actual scientist who do actual science have a much more "play like" attitude to the process: "what happens when I do X?" "I want to tweak X, Y and Z, and figure out what happens." The grade school formalism of "scientific methodology" is a caricature of what actually happens (much like the "how a bill becomes a law" story is a caricature). And this stilted formalism only serves to cement the image of scientist as stolid masters of arcana whose word is "truth".

      So, yeah, ccience is a method, and it is rigorous, but it's fun, too. And people would be better off if they understood why it's fun.

  6. Science is dangerous and math is stressful by Tokolosh · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "I don't want my child anywhere near chemicals. They are bad for us and evil companies are destroying the planet."

    My son was excited to take high school chemistry. After the first day I asked him what they had done. Nothing, just a lecture about good behavior and harassment. Second day: lecture about safety. Third day: more safety and protective equipment. Fourth day: Had the fear of god put in them for doing anything whatsoever unauthorized. Fifth day: Forced to sign a "contract", brought home for parent's signature too.

    Second week: Fully kitted with coats, glasses, gloves - observed effect of vinegar and baking soda solution on litmus paper.

    Lord help us.

    --
    Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
    1. Re:Science is dangerous and math is stressful by tomwrake · · Score: 2

      Good god! I hope they never mixed the baking soda and vinegar!

    2. Re:Science is dangerous and math is stressful by Rhywden · · Score: 4, Interesting

      When I'm doing my safety lecture, I'm always demonstrating why some behaviours are not smart. Either by showing videos and photos, or actually doing an experiment which "goes wrong".

      Much better if pupils know why some stuff is forbidden.

      However, I'm, also showing them that the acids and lyes they'll be working with are not something to be massively afraid of. Respectful, yes. Afraid, no.

    3. Re:Science is dangerous and math is stressful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My wife does something similar when teaching science. The first few experiments are ridiculously safe. The goals are to get into a safe habit and (more importantly) figure out which students are going to act like total morons. Later on they get to play with acid, fire, sharp objects.

  7. Science is really two topics by joe_frisch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There are two parts to "science". There is learning some of the vast amount of science that has already been done, and there is learning how to do science. Both are important, and both can be made interesting by a good teacher and dull by a bad one.

  8. Not just science ... by Xaemyl · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is a problem for school overall. Its pretty fucking boring.

  9. Re:Time vs. "fun" by PvtVoid · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I doubt professional scientists think their work is "fun".

    If that's true, it's only because professional scientists spend the vast majority of their time doing things that aren't science: grant management, administration, job interviews, committee meetings. Every scientist I know is desperately trying to get away from all of that bullshit and get back to having fun: i.e., doing science. Science is so much fun that scientists are willing to put up with all the PHB college adminstrators that fill their days, just for those moments of science, which are pure joy.

  10. Australia or the place with triangular stamps? by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

    Where? In the US that wouldn't be allowed for fear of lawsuits if someone got a splinter. In the UK it would be supporting terrorists. In France it would be a breach of workplace rules. And in Germany they'd find some tenuous link to holocaust denial.

    By my reckoning that leaves Australia and that place with the funny shaped stamps.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:Australia or the place with triangular stamps? by dbIII · · Score: 2

      By my reckoning that leaves Australia and that place with the funny shaped stamps.

      Some years back the word went out that the high schools had to dispose of all their stock of sodium for safety reasons. The principal of my school (sometimes also a science teacher) crumbled up all the sodium in store and placed it on an anthill of some large stinging green ants in the school grounds. A couple of hours later after the ants had taken some underground he called out all the students to watch from the buildings some distance away and then turned on a large sprinkler. There was a nice little explosion, a bit of fire, the sodium was disposed of and all the students saw that sodium metal reacts with water.
      Sodium is now out but some other things that burn are acceptable.

  11. At least one post says forget about facts by Streetlight · · Score: 2

    Science does involve knowledge of facts as well as hypotheses and theories. Without knowledge of the known facts determined by scientific experiment one might just be condemned to relearning what others have already discovered instead of extending that knowledge to ongoing studies or new areas of discovery.

    Furthermore, one of the problems in some parts of the world and in particular some states of the USA is an anti science culture. Some folks have used various governmental school agencies to restrict the teaching of many scientific disciplines including evolution because they think it contradicts biblical authority.

    In Colorado recently a state authority has reduced the standards for high school graduation by allowing lack of competence in science by graduates. Imagine a small school district that has budget problems and finds that the best way to solve it is to eliminate science education from the HS curriculum. Apparently that's possible with the new rules. These HS graduates obviously will be at a disadvantage trying to get into college, but the school district may have balanced its budget.

    --
    In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
  12. "Fun" versus "rewarding" by j-beda · · Score: 2

    There is also the danger of selling something as "fun" in the way that going to a carnival might be "fun" versus selling it as something that is "rewarding" like perhaps the efforts necessary to train as a team to win a race, or the preparations necessary to do tasks like rock-climbing or other challenging tasks. If you tell someone "This thing is FUN!" then it seems much more likely that when they encournter aspects that are not effortless and completely entertaining, they will (rightly) decide that it is not "fun" and have much less chance beliving that is worthwhile.

    Coaches generally don't tell the players that "running lines" or doing pushups is "fun", but the players believe that doing those tasks is worthwhile and necessary to do what they want to do - get better at their sport and do well in the competitions. Almost nothing we do is "fun" in every aspect. Helping people to develop the ability to get satisfaction from doing a task well, and recognizing the benifits of focussed effort should be a primary goal of our general educational system. Having the student understand why they are doing whatever they are doing might also go a long way towards providing motivation for the activities. Having the instructors understand the purpose of activites as well is probably worthwhile too...

    With that said, unless one is trying some revers psychology or something, we shoud be trying as much as possible to limit the unpleasant aspects of learning in all areas. Pushups might be necessary in order to build athlete strength, but we do not have to do them on a field of broken glass.

  13. We had "Hot Wheels week" in high school physics by sandytaru · · Score: 4, Funny

    Oh sure, we were calculating velocity and acceleration and angles, but we were putting it to practical use with a Hot Wheels car on tracks set to angles to make them fly through a target. It was tons of math but also lots of giggling 17-year olds playing with cars like they haven't done in ten years.

    During another unit, we calculated our own personal horsepower by running up the stairs.

    --
    Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
  14. Re:Time vs. "fun" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    BS.
    I'm a physicist, doing basic science at a research lab.

    I can assure you: None of the people there do it for the money! We all do it because it is _FUN_!
    Doing something nobody has ever done before, thinking about things nobody has ever considered before, and building stuff to do an experiment is fun, fun, fun!

    Rigorous method and stuff: yes. Grant management, admin, etc.: Yes. Of course we have to do it.
    But the the driving force, the reason _why_ we are doing it is _exclusively_ fun!

    [ I could easily earn a lot more money, with less work, in industry. But been there, done that: Not so much fun!]

  15. New Paradigm in Education by trout007 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The problem as I see it is that in the old days teachers were educated intellgent young unmarried women. They dedicated their early years to their students. Parents respected the teachers because typically the parents were less educated then the teachers.

    But this is no longer the case. The most intellgent women now become doctors, lawyers, scientists, engineers, business people, etc. Teachering is now a life long profession for C students. If you have ever gone to parent teacher night I find many of the young teachers to act very uneducated. They also have their own young children so basicly clock out when the school day is over because they have to pick their kids up from day care or school. There are a couple exceptions to where education is a calling buy you can't build a system on this.

    In addition the parents are often much smarter and more educated then the tecahers. This I beleive is what is behind the homeschool movement. It is in our family. We got tired of C students trying and failing to educate our children. It got to the point we were spending entire evenings teaching our kids what they should have learned that day. So we homeschool them now and have much more free time with the kids. And I live in an "A" school district (whatever that means).

    We need to transition to a new system. I have no idea what it should be. Maybe have retired professionals teach their subjects of expertise. How great would it be to have a Chemistry teacher who was a researcher or worked in the petrochemical industry? Or a NASA engineer as physics or math teacher? You need people with a passion to transfer that passion to students.

    --
    I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    1. Re:New Paradigm in Education by dbIII · · Score: 2

      Maybe have retired professionals teach their subjects of expertise.

      With woodwork, metalwork and drafting that used to be the case, real experienced trade qualified people with a teaching diploma - but the pay sucks too much for most who have been in other fields to commit the time to get past the increased barriers of entry to get into teaching.

    2. Re:New Paradigm in Education by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      You don't need a Masters or PHD to teach 8 years olds maths. You need teaching and class management skills. You need an understanding of child psychology. Maybe you are just looking for the wrong skills in teachers.

      The way to get skilled professionals into teaching is to pay skilled professional wages. It would also help if we could attract more men into the profession, especially for the youngest kids.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  16. Science by Inquiry by DrLudicrous · · Score: 2

    While in grad school, I was lucky enough to be selected to teach elementary school science in an inner-city school as part of the NSF's GK-12 program. I team-taught with the main classroom teacher 4 afternoons a week, using inquiry-based methods. Our pedagogic approach was very hands-on, and we had to think on our feet a lot. It was not easy for us to lesson plan, but we did our best.

    The results? Out of ~35 kids, all of whom were getting free lunches (and all save one living in single-parent/grandparent households), most of whom had no previous science education, roughly 55% passed the state-mandate science proficiency test. That might not sound so great, but since the previous year's class had a passing rate of about 17%, we were ecstatic. We also had good participation in a "science club" held after-school, with more inquiry-based activities. At one point, late in the year, our students even understood free body diagrams (they were about 10 years old) as part of understanding Newton's 3rd law- something my college students typically struggled with.

    Inquiry is powerful stuff. It harnesses the thing that makes people interested in science in the first place: innate curiosity.

  17. Why don't we just be honest, and say it by vsigma · · Score: 2

    The vast bulk of elementary school teachers in the United States don't like Science, just as much as they don't like math.

    I am *NOT* saying that they are not good teachers. But rather - you're taking someone who probably never really liked those subjects in the first place, and are trying to get them to instill a joy in something that they, themselves, don't have in it to people. It just is not going to work!

    Let's look at the elementary school teachers here in the US.. most of them are coming from a liberal arts teaching background. Which is great, because they're expected to teach a plethora of subjects, and also spend the bulk of the day with the students. So they also have the crowd control skills and so on. But ask them in a non-school setting about any basic science - most of them would roll their eyes at the questions, and even tell you that they never even liked it. A lot of them look at science as almost a voo-doo thing, and they just do what's in the textbooks/curriculum.

    What really should be done, is to bring in science (and math!) specialists for just those subjects at that level. Let people who have a ready understanding on the material, and who can relate it to every day things interact with the kids for those bits. Let them explain every day things to these kids, to keep the joy of learning there!

    Note here: I am an engineer (still consulting) turned Chem/Physics/Math HS teacher in the public sector here in the US. I have also worked these alleged crazy new fangled math stuff that are trying to conceptualize things, when they really need to just go back to basics, and instill basic skills so that the advanced things can be 'fun' , or at the very least be seen by the students as something that they can do, because they already have the tools to do so. Instead of just flat out giving up.

    And yeah, we should involve more parental involvement and so on. And oh yes, say it's ok to drop out. Go get a job, and see how awful it truly is without an education - and when their heads are screwed on right - to go get their GED/whatever degree from that point on.. as they'll be self motivated - as opposed to having us to motivate them!

  18. Re:Time vs. "fun" by david_thornley · · Score: 2

    There's anonymous claims on the Internet with scientists claiming that science, overall is fun, and people describing scientists that agree with that. Do you have any actual evidence that scientists don't think science is fun, or are you just stuck to your own opinion?

    To put this another way, why do people become scientists? Considering the level of education required, the pay is crap, the hours are long, the job market is bad, and it's often necessary to move all over the world. Since the extrinsic rewards are bad, there really does have to be some major intrinsic reward(s) or we wouldn't have all those scientists.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes