How To Make Messages Easy For an Alien Race To Understand (hackaday.com)

szczys writes: The screen on that new cellphone has amazing pixel density, color vibrance, and refresh rate. The high-end headphones you just picked up do an amazing job reproducing sound. These devices interface extremely well with humans but might not be very good modes of communication for an Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence. Sure, we haven't made contact with alien life yet. Even if they did pick up our broadcasts or space probes the relatively narrow-range of audio (narrow and low frequency), visual (slow refresh rate), and data transmission methods are likely to make no sense to non-human entities. The Voyager Golden Record took a fascinating approach to making some data available to new civilizations; it's interesting to think of other ways we might communicate with beings of fundamentally different biology.

Comments

Actually,

[Anonymous Coward]

Aliens would teach us English.

Re:Actually,

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you figure? That vast majority come here illegally and don't bother to learn the language themselves.

...uhh

[JMJimmy]

Don't bother. If they have the ability to pick up the signal, they'll have the ability to decipher the message.

Re:...uhh

[CaptQuark]

Every signal that we have sent out requires them to be visually oriented. Do you think the TV signals we beam into space will make any sense to beings that communicate ultrasonically? An encoded 2D image interlaced with alternate lines 30 times a second won't be of much use to intelligent vampire bats.

What about beings from an ice planet that communicate with different temperatures of liquid methane? Or beings that communicate using pheromones? Or interference patterns of UV radiation? Or any other sensory stimuli that we haven't even imagined yet.

We also try sending out mathematical sequences we assume they will recognize, like Pi. Except many mathematicians think Tau is a better constant to broadcast. (Tau is 2 x Pi. Tau fits many mathematical equations much better than Pi.) Pi and Tau are great constants for plane geometry, but what about beings that live in water or other liquid media. Circles are very rare in water. Spheres are much more common and the use of Pi may or may not be instantly recognizable. What about a constant that describes the relationship of the volume of a sphere to its radius/diameter?

There have been many studies that show that one method of communication that covers long distances is artificial gravity waves. Until we can send or receive these signals, we might be looked at like newborns clapping their hands and thinking they are communicating.

--

Re: ...uhh

[fyngyrz]

Pretty sure we'd recognize any constant you've mentioned, likewise any math-savvy aliens. For that matter I think we, and the putative "they", would recognize any number .

Re:...uhh

[Rei]

Every signal that we have sent out requires them to be visually oriented. Do you think the TV signals we beam into space will make any sense to beings that communicate ultrasonically? An encoded 2D image interlaced with alternate lines 30 times a second won't be of much use to intelligent vampire bats.

Okay, first off...

1) Vampire bats do not work that way.

2) Humans take information that our senses can't perceive all the time and turn in into forms that we can. That's what false-color images and the like are.

3) A species that can pick up the signal (as the GP posited) is most definitely able to transform signals between mediums. It's pretty much a fundamental part of any receiver technology - you take a propagating signal, turn it into data, then turn the data into a form that you can perceive.

Obviously no species is going to inherently have the recipe for demodulating the signal just handed to them - they'll have to figure it out, even if their senses are precisely the same as ours. They'll have to recognize, "hey there's a signal here, and by its pattern it doesn't appear to be naturally generated and seems to be storing data in some manner". They'll then have to reverse engineer how to pull the data out of the signal. Then they'll have to figure out how the data is structured (probably the hardest part, esp. with modern compressed digital formats). All of these apply to all beings. But once you've figured all of that out, turning it into a form that you can perceive is the easy part.

Say there's a species with no vision that can only experiences the world through ultrasound echolocation, as in what you probably intended to be your example? Once you understand that the signal is, say, periodic frames representing an array of triplet values (what we know to be RGB) and know how to decode it to that, the species may play it back by, say, an "ultrasound screen" that creates the perception of a 3-dimensional surface, with the height representing pixel intensity. Maybe they might combine all three RGB values into one height, maybe they might present them as side by side heightfields, maybe they might use one value to represent height, another to represent surface roughness, another to represent sound absorptive properties of the surface, or somesuch. They'll pick whatever is most convenient for them.

I'm not going to humour your "liquid methane temperature" communication concept because that's far too low bandwidth for a sentient species to practically use. Pheromones also. And "interference patterns of UV radiation", that depends on what you mean by "interference patterns" - you're either talking about a UV equivalent of echolocation, as above, or just visible data shifted into the UV, which is just a frequency shift on the RGB image into their visual range. We as humans do frequency shifts of astronomical data all the time, that's what every image made from a UV, X-ray, IR, radio, etc telescope is.

For any species to be able to get to the phase of being able to receive and demodulate communications, it must have at least the concept and ability to perceive 2D orientation (if not 3D), because it has to be able to align receivers with the right patch of sky. That perception can be of some unthinkably bizarre form by our standards, but it has to exist. Whatever perception of 2D it has, 2d images can be presented in that form.

Your Pi/Tau example is clearly pointless. We as humans clearly know of both constants. Sure, Pi "stands out" more to us at first glance, but if we received something that appeared to be of non-natural origin, you really think nobody would notice if the data was Tau?

Circles are no more "rare in water" than on land. The cross section of a sphere is a circle. What do you think bubbles are? Rounded rocks? Round sea life? Heck, lava underwater, unlike on land, tends to produce round structures called pillow lava. And again, if this to the point of being able to isolate faint radio

Re:...uhh

[JaredOfEuropa]

When a race of aliens build a technologically advanced society, it is likely that they will turn to electromagnetic or optical signalling for long range communication, whatever senses they may or may not posess. And once they have that, start listening for word from other worlds, and happen to pick up our signals, it's likely that they'll recognize them for what they are: artifical signals instead of a naturally occurring phenomenon. Once that happens, it shouldn't be too hard for them to pick up on clues deliberately left in the message, whether it's pi or tau or prime numbers, or if they're not using base 10, or whatever.

It also seems likely that, whatever senses they posess, they'll have a way to "visualize" geometric shapes and "pictures" or some other means of provide an abstract representation of the physical world around them, and encode that into signals. If they can do that, they'll be sure to look for pictures in our transmissions, and then a TV signal isn't all that hard to recognize for what it is either.

Sure, beings from an ice planet that use nothing but temperature to communicate and make sense of the work around them may have a hard time coping with abstract visualisations, but lacking EM or optical sensors, they won't be picking up our transmissions in the first place, so the decoding issue becomes moot.

Re:...uhh

[Anonymous Coward]

Honestly, from a discovery standpoint, I don't think we could care any less about those species.

We, ideally, WANT to discover an alien species that CAN communicate back, a species that have developed external intelligence rather than internally.
We want a species that has worked their world, has developed similarly to ours.

Sure, it would be fantastic to find ANY life out there, but the priority is those that can send us a "piss off ya wanker" back to us.
All of those other lifeforms that can't communicate back would be no different to bacteria, in the end. They could be as intelligent as they want, still doesn't change the fact they can't communicate for shit.

Look at Dolphins, incredibly intelligent creatures, but due to the fact they live in the water, they haven't really developed much externally simply because they can't.
A water life is anti-external-development. You can't do anything in water. All they can do is develop internally.
It'd be great to learn about the cultures of other species like this, and as we speak, we have been attempting to create bridging languages with dolphins for many years now, and it is fairly successful. But like any species, there are different dialects, different languages.

Re:...uhh

[nospam007]

"An encoded 2D image interlaced with alternate lines 30 times a second won't be of much use to intelligent vampire bats."

As we wouldn't want to alert intelligent vampire bats about our existence, that is a good thing.

Re:...uhh

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure the mode of communication is especially important. As humans, we scan and study our world in ways we'd never think of using for communication. We look through vast parts of the electromagnetic spectrum, well beyond where we transmit data. We look for gravitational waves and neutrinos. Just because we don't communicate in those ways doesn't mean we're not looking. We do this because it helps us understand the universe and develop better technology. I'd think an advanced species would scan in ways that they don't use for communication for exactly the same reasons we do. Your comments on that make a lot of sense, that it's important to make our signal interesting and unusual enough to merit further study. That hits the nail right on the head.

Re:...uhh

[Anonymous Coward]

Every signal we've sent out requires aliens to exist. They don't. Carl Sagan was a goofball.

Re:...uhh

[Anonymous Coward]

Tau? Nah, the answer is, was and always will be pi/2.

Re:...uhh

[turbidostato]

"Every signal that we have sent out requires them to be visually oriented. Do you think the TV signals we beam into space will make any sense to beings that communicate ultrasonically?"

Just to see if I understood clearly your point: an hypothetical alien race can detect our TV signals through light years of interstellar vacuum but then they fail to see there's something encoded within because they "communicate ultrasonically"!?

Or they somehow evolutioned to be able to meake use the horribly faint gravity waves but still have problems with the much more common electromagnetic spectrum?

Anyway... just think about it the SETI way: yes, comunication, as much as life itself, can take ways and patterns we can't even imagine, but the task now is not to detect or communicate with each and every life form over there but to detect or communicate with just one. It make sense to try for the true and tested patterns, the only we know for sure that can be produced: ours.

Re:...uhh

[Anonymous Coward]

Every signal that we have sent out requires them to be visually oriented. Do you think the TV signals we beam into space will make any sense to beings that communicate ultrasonically?

Do you think audio broadcasts doesn't exists?

Re: ...uhh

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe, maybe not. We have trouble deciphering the pictorials left by our own species after a couple thousand years, even when we can sort of understand them.

For a long time we have wondered how the Egyptians moved all those large stones to build the pyramid. Recently they figured out that the Egyptians would use water poured in front of the sand sleds to reduce the resistance to movement.

The kicker is that the Egyptian hieroglyphs showed very clearly images of Egyptians standing on the front of the sled pouring water on the sand, but we dismissed it as some ritual rather than part of their practical solution to an engineering problem.

So how much of what we leave behind would be discounted as something superstitious rather than a scientific reference? Will they assume we worshiped little sphere gods?

Re:...uhh

[Anonymous Coward]

Every signal that we have sent out requires them to be visually oriented.

Citation needed.

Re:...uhh

[DarkOx]

My thoughts would be that any intelligence we could ever recognize and have any communication with would have to work like our own at least in that it seeks out patterns in stimuli.

Even if you communicate ultrasonically, heck even if you see that way you still exist in the same N-dimensional universe we do. So if you are looking at a TV signal that you have notices does not fit the normal background pattern of EM and start trying to make sense of it. Eventually you might be able to work out hey this is a series of half resolution projections from three dimensions onto two over a range of spectrum. Would it be one hell of puzzle, you bet but I think a solvable one for the sufficiently intelligent, interested, advanced extra terrestrial species even if they are quite different from us.

4/3(pi)r^3 describes the volume of a sphere, pi is still the relevant constant. pi describes both circles and spheres nicely with multiplication. 4(pi)r^2 gives you the area of a sphere. Ah but area of a circle (pi)r^2, you think that is more natural and apparent that ((1/2)tau)r^2. Whole number multiplication is a more natural operation than division. I have studied the matter of tau greatly but the equations I can think of off the top of my head let me do more with pi being the only non integer coefficients. Which I think makes it clearer what the 'special' relation is.

Re: ...uhh

[Culture20]

Will they assume we worshiped little sphere gods?

His name is A Sphere and he has the same spacial dimensions as us.

Re:...uhh

[Anonymous Coward]

Really nice post! A couple of points I'd like to expand on:

Then they'll have to figure out how the data is structured (probably the hardest part, esp. with modern compressed digital formats).

One of the clever ideas used in, for example, the Arecibo message is to send a sequence of bits which has a length equal to the product of two prime numbers. That way, if you successfully guess that it's meant to represent a 2D image, there's only one possibility for the image resolution. (Actually, two: order is important. I guess a square number would work better.)

We as humans do frequency shifts of astronomical data all the time, that's what every image made from a UV, X-ray, IR, radio, etc telescope is.

Also, every image from a visible-light telescope. There's no good reason to make the wavelength bands of the telescope match up exactly with the bands for human retinas, and several good scientific reasons to do otherwise. Every image taken with a telescope is, to one extent or another, a false-colour image.

Re:...uhh

[Anonymous Coward]

and even more significantly, those able to decipher them also have the smarts enough to ignore the messages (i.e. not respond) or turn them into comedy bits on their own alien-equivalent of television and internets.

Re:...uhh

[Anonymous Coward]

If Spock can do it, they can do it - agreed.

Re:...uhh

[Applehu Akbar]

"data transmission methods are likely to make no sense to non-human entities. "

An example of one such is calling my own cat. With more distant species, it will be more difficult.

Re:...uhh

[Anonymous Coward]

It's all good as long as the aliens aren't feline based, then we are just out of luck. Just imagine trying to make sense of an alien cat!

Re:...uhh

[geantvert]

> What about a constant that describes the relationship of the volume of a sphere to its radius/diameter?

Uhhhh.... Pi? or if you prefer 4/3*Pi

Anyways, I do not believe that Pi, 2 Pi or 4/3 Pi are fundamentally different.

Let's assume that today we receive a message from outer space and with the number 1.01015254455 .

How much time will it take to figure out how it was obtained?

Re: ...uhh

[bsdasym]

There's an error in your comparison. Looking back at the Egyptians, we are looking into our own past, which clouds our judgement on what the pictographs mean. We know that they were polytheistic, that they did create pictorial representations of their religious beliefs, mythical creatures, ceremonies, and so forth. Their culture was not entirely alien to us, and our knowledge of their culture colors our interpretation of the artifacts we find. There will be no such misleading contexts if we receive an alien transmission, or if they receive one from us. A diagram of a person pouring something in front of a device is likely to be interpreted quite literally at first.

Re:...uhh

[Anonymous Coward]

, but what about beings that live in water or other liquid media.

Then they are doomed to live like animals, although they may even be intelligent to some extent. As you may know, technology depends on fire, which does not go well with water.

Re:...uhh

[Anonymous Coward]

Looking the other way (them to us e.g. SETI) the problem is data compression.SETI may be seeing communication every day and not be able to recognize it

Re: ...uhh

[Opportunist]

But would we recognize the intent? There was this number experiment by Cornelis de Jager who showed that with a handful of numbers and some creative application of math, you can prove that these numbers are "special" and that whoever used them has a profound understanding of math. He used some values derived from his bicycle to show that whoever made this must have superspecial knowledge of quantum physics because if you multiplied the pedal way with the square root of the bell's diameter and divided it by ... you get the idea.

This was done to debunk the number mysticism behind the Pyramids and other ancient buildings where some ancient alien loonies claimed that, since the length of the sides and the height and whatnot can calculate some physical constants down to some numbers behind the comma. de Jager showed that you can pull a handful numbers out of your ass and, putting them through some math, you can calculate any physical constant you want.

That also works for conspiracy theories, btw.

So when you show some alien that you know a constant, you also have to show them that you actually intend to show it to them.

Re:...uhh

[thegarbz]

Engineers are great at picking on specifics and then missing the underlying theme. Both you and the parent have assumed if the signal can be percieved that it can be decoded. This is not a given. This isn't even a given among humans. We with all our history and documentation still have problems deciphering what our own species wrote only a few thousands of years ago. We have only the slightest understanding of animal communication despite studying it since Darwin started playing with bugs.

Putting random nonsensical information without any context into some digitally encoded stream sent via some most probably easy to decipher format on an easy to spot carrier does not in any way guarantee that someone will be intelligent enough to figure out what was said. A lot of piecing together unintelligible content comes from controlled observation much like learning a new language.

You can't stick a baby in a room with a copy of The Martian on repeat and then expect within a few years he'll actually understand what the people were saying, and while the theory is that you can pick up languages through examining the context and lots of different variations the problem for our alien neighbours is they may be picking up either an isolated single signal we beamed out at high power, or they are picking up a shitload of everything in a multitude of languages, coding methods, etc. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that a species which perceives the same things we do could decipher what we're saying.

Re:...uhh

[bsdasym]

Compression is not a problem on its own. There's a difference between recognizing a signal and being able to interpret or decode it. If you point a laser at the aliens and send them nothing but randomly chosen blocks from compressed files, they are still going to be able to detect the laser and determine that it is artificial. This is actually exactly what SETI radio astronomy projects look for, the carrier signal. They do not have the bandwidth to detect the subtle modulations used to encode a signal onto that carrier.

Re: ...uhh

[fyngyrz]

So when you show some alien that you know a constant, you also have to show them that you actually intend to show it to them.

No. All you have to do is show intentional order. Numbers do that well before they take on roles as constants. receiving 1,2,3,4,5,6... would wake up any of our scientists. In any base.

Until we can determine that we're hearing something intentional -- which a certain (fairly minimal) amount of order is sufficient to do -- how good at math and physics some aliens are isn't much of an issue.

Although, of course, if 11110011011001 (11 1 100 1 101 1001) was resolvable on some SETI person's printout or display, I'm pretty sure the top of their heads would blow right off. :)

morse code

[invictusvoyd]

of course

Re:morse code

[snookiex]

I do think Morse code is a good idea, seriously. It's simple to understand and broadcast. Also, I'd prefer light over radio as a way to broadcast the message. Maybe we should figure out the way to turn on and off a supernova so we can send Morse codes with it.

Re:morse code

[sconeu]

Been there, done that, but with a pulsar.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Hercules-Text-Jack-McDevitt/dp/0425276015.

Ideas

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Narrow frequency band -- harder to confuse with wideband emissions from most naturally occurring things in space
2) Send the signal for a long time -- unlike the wow signal, we want to still be transmitting if they scan the same area of their sky again
3) Something simple to draw attention on one frequency -- not a simple oscillator that could be confused for a pulsar, but something along those lines
4) Send dot matrix images in binary -- easy to decode and view, don't assume a being that's intelligent enough to look to the sky can't decode something
5) Don't transmit in the direction of Skaro -- this should be obvious

hello.jpg

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe it's better to try to keep them away from us for a while?

Umm, ok

[wonkey_monkey]

These devices interface extremely well with humans but might not be very good modes of communication for an Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence.

I never thought they would be.

In other news, cars are useless for exploring the oceans.

Universal language of elements

[Anonymous Coward]

Stargate got it right.

Re:Universal language of elements

[camperdave]

Oh no you don't. I've got Walking Dead, Doctor Who, ST-DS9 and ST-Voyager to finish binge watching first. I don't need to be adding Stargate and it's offspring to the list.

Re:Universal language of elements

[Alumoi]

Skip Walking Dead and add ST-Enterprise to the list. And don't even think of Stargate Universe, that's NOT Stargate.

Re:Universal language of elements

[myowntrueself]

Oh no you don't. I've got Walking Dead, Doctor Who, ST-DS9 and ST-Voyager to finish binge watching first. I don't need to be adding Stargate and it's offspring to the list.

If you cherry-pick episodes of ST-DS9 and ST-Voyager so you watch the actual storyline episodes and skip the ones which are, basically, just about people sitting around in their uniforms complaining about their lives, they can be packed into a easy weekend of viewing.

Even Sliders can be made quite viewable in this fashion, except replace 'sitting around in their uniforms...' with 'moralising about other cultures which they know nothing about'.

Re:Universal language of elements

[blue9steel]

ST-Enterprise? You're dead to me.

Re:Universal language of elements

[CanadianMacFan]

Skip the Walking Dead, ST-DS9, ST-Voyager. Stargate is okay but skip the follow on series. Watch the episode Blink from Doctor Who which was the best one. Then listen to the Doctor Who radio dramas from Big Finish. They are much better than the series, especially the last couple of seasons. The previous Doctors are featured in them. If you want a good sci-fi show I would recommend Babylon 5. The graphics are getting dated but the storyline and characters are great. I don't like Star Trek because for the most part it's the same characters in different stories every week. There's a weak storyline throughout the series. In B5 you can have something that lasts 30 seconds in one episode becoming a major storyline in another episode. And there's a strong story throughout the first four seasons. The fifth season isn't that great. They didn't know if there was going to be a fifth when they finished the fourth so they had to close the main storyline pretty quick and that left the fifth season a bit empty.

Humility

[hcs_$reboot]

Those who are currently listening to us, for whom the speed of light is not any more limitation than the speed of sound for us, do not need much effort to understand our messages. They're likely more interested in more advanced civilizations, however.

Re:Humility

[Anonymous Coward]

This is 'sci-fi' optimism. You assume that warp drives and hyperspace will eventually trickle down into reality. Our current understanding of physics doesn't make FTL travel for matter look very promising, and we've yet to detect anything that does. Even before humans broke the sound barrier, we observed things that did so all the time. Just like we knew heavier-than-air flight was possible, because birds exist.

Re:Humility

[Rei]

It's the same sort of thing that feeds religion and "The Secret"-type worldviews: if you want something to exist enough, if you really want something to occur with all your heart, then surely it will exist, surely it will occur.

Basically, "magical thinking".

Re:Humility

[Anonymous Coward]

Even before humans broke the sound barrier, we observed things that did so all the time. Just like we knew heavier-than-air flight was possible, because birds exist.

I'm confused, and want to know more about these supersonic birds.
I'm trying really hard to think of something terrestrial that breaks the sound barrier that's not man-made.
Oh yeah, dinosaur tails. BTW, how did we know that whips were supersonic?

Re:Humility

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty sure mankind was using guns before we knew the sound barrier was even a barrier.

Re:Humility

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm confused, and want to know more about these supersonic birds. "

You're confused alright, you can't even parse two simple sentences.

"Even before humans broke the sound barrier, we observed things that did so all the time. "

Rifle bullets.

" Just like we knew "

The "just like" doesn't mean supersonic birds, you moron.

Re:Humility

[Anonymous Coward]

FTL hardly looks like anything you expect. How do you know you have not seen it?

Message to Aeschen.

[EzInKy]

Please allow us license to use all your expertise now.

New language?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't it be better to construct a new language that is independent of biology?
The article talks about sound and vision and then makes some assumptions about how aliens can perceive those. Maybe there's a slight chance they use something else to communicate.

If we find a very easy system to transmit numbers, then a slightly more complex way to transmit mathematical operators. If they decoded the numbers the operators should be easier to figure out. The idea is that the message can be layered and decoding the previous layer will make it easier to decode the next.
After we have send this first message it will allow us to transmit mathematics and physical units/equations.

After we have done this we could use that language to send to them how to playback our more normal signals like audio and video. Or we could keep sending in that language, I think if we use it creatively we could send our position in the milky way (I like the voyager approach of using pulsars) among other things.

core point

[Tom]

The core point is to investigate the assumptions we make, and that's what makes this a philosophical challenge, not a linguistic or engineering one.

Our life is full of assumptions that we are not even aware of. Thinking about aliens lets us challenge these assumptions. Visual communication? Maybe, but in which part of the electromagnetic spectrum? Audio? Which frequencies and what patterns? Tacticle? Chemical? Something else entirely?

What are "basics" of the universe that we can use to construct a communication system with a species very different? These questions are asked for this, and the Voyager plates are great examples, but still they make too many assumptions, without which we as humans don't know how to communicate.

Re:core point

[Rei]

To be able to hold a pointing orientation in space, one has to be able to understand 2D. To be able to understand changing positions in space, one has to be able to understand 3D. To interact with physical objects, they must have some method to perceive their shape. If they're interacting with spacecraft, they have to be able to do some pretty damned precise things in regards to all three of these things The methods used to be able to do these things may be alien to us, but they have to be able to understand them in some sort of form. They essentially have to be able to perceive the voyager plates, perceive that there's information of some form on there, and have the mental wherewithal to convert it into whatever coordinate space / representation system their minds use, and to begin to make deductions about its meaning.

They could reach the wrong conclusions. But if they're spacefaring, they have to at least be capable of advanced reasoning, so they're going to have a shot at it.

Re:core point

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the main issue with interpreting the Voyager plates is the usage of the Bohr atomic model for hydrogen atoms.
Using orthogonal mapping for 3D-objects to 2D could be a problem too, but since any intersection of a field emitted from a 3D object will produce a similar result it should be possible to decode that one. After all shadows will exists everywhere and would be "visible" even for a form of life that treats sound the way we treat light.

If they have another atomic model the concept of electrons and protons might be foreign to them and then the Voyager plate lacks a frame of reference.

Re:core point

[Anonymous Coward]

I strongly disagree with this point. We don't need to anticipate how aliens might communicate, nor do I think it's possible to envision all the ways this might occur.
We primarily communicate directly to another person through visual and auditory means, though other mechanisms are also used. Most of our communication over long distances is electromagnetic, in specific ranges of the spectrum. But we don't simply look for signals that are visual, auditory, or within the ranges of the spectrum we use. We look to the sky for signals that extend well beyond the parts of the electromagnetic spectrum we use for communication. We scan for neutrinos and gravitational waves. We do this to try to understand our universe, and that desire for information is why we've been able to advance and develop the technology we have. It's essential that we study our world and the universe in ways that are well beyond our modes of communication so we understand how the universe works and can develop new technology. I believe that this studying of the world and the universe in a diverse manner is critical to the development of technology. I can't believe an advanced alien race wouldn't study their world and the universe in at least as many ways as we do.

We don't need to predict how they would communicate. That's a fool's errand. Instead, we need to assume they're scanning and trying to study the universe in a diverse manner. We then need to create a signal that is clearly different than that which is produced by natural processes lacking intelligence. Something that transmits on a narrow band, is persistent enough that beings scanning that part of the sky can look there again and still receive the signal, and is periodic but not a simple oscillation like a pulsar, would be a good way to get someone's attention. We also have to make sure the signal is strong enough to rise above the background noise of the universe.

About the Voyager plates, we can't be sure that alien beings would understand them. But the plates, along with the rest of the spacecraft, would be so obviously not created naturally as to get a curious alien race looking for where it came from. If we want to transmit information, the best thing we can do is transmit a lot of it, so that there are more's more to work with when decoding and trying to understand it. There's still no guarantee alien beings would make sense of it, but it greatly increases the chances of success.

Re:core point

[Rei]

I agree. The field of extraterrestrial linguistics has seriously advanced beyond then, thankfully, with communications systems based on logic system, and even a transmittable operating system that explains how it should be run (inputs, outputs, etc), enabling one to send interactive programs along with it.

It's funny, but there's a concept I've never seen before in science fiction: that of multiple alien species living amongst each other, but whose homeworlds are vast cosmic distances apart and who have never gotten anywhere close to each other due to the difficulties of approaching relativistic velocities in spacetravel. How? Bit by bit we understand more of "what makes us tick". Not just how DNA codes for proteins, but the whole complex interplay of these proteins in keeping a cell operating. We now understand how to turn skin cells to pluripotent stem cells, stem cells to primordial germ cells, and are approaching being able to turn them into eggs and sperm without having to implant them in testes or ovaries. Some day, probably somewhere between several decades to a century or so from now, we may well have developed the ability to create a fertilized egg completely from scratch - including all of the organelles necessary to keep it alive - and an artificial womb to carry it in. Once one has transmitted the means to convey information and technology, plans can be transmitted (ala Contact, but with technology for biological creation, not communication). One could send to another world every last step needed to create and nurture a human being in-situ, along with a interactive computerized childrearing "system" for the child's early years, along with a discussion of exactly what is being done at each stage. And other species could do this as well in their transmissions to us.

Of course, if the "singularity" people are right, one could just transmit a sentient program to other worlds and be done with it far simpler. Either way, whether anything gets done with a signal depends on whether they're 1) actually out there, 2) close enough, 3) receive the message, 4) detect it, 5) recognize it as carrying information from sentient beings, 6) decipher it, 7) and perhaps most importantly, decide whether they want to actually risk trusting this transmission from an alien world. Lots of "ifs", to say the least.

Re:core point

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, if the "singularity" people are right

In my opinion people who thinks "the singularity" is significant haven't thought things through.
We have already reached a point where it is impossible for a single human to keep track of all technological advances that are made.
Even if some or all of the development is offloaded to AI the change in development pace will not be noticeable by individuals.
"Singularity" will never happen as a point since we already know that the concept will start at a point already beyond what the "singularity" is referring to.
If AI or regular humans are doing the development is irrelevant and undetectable for the individual that tries to comprehend what is going on.

Re:core point

[Oligonicella]

If they have an atomic model other than the concept of electrons and protons they don't have advanced electronics and so no means to detect the Voyager message other than after it impacts their planet.

Re:core point

[Anonymous Coward]

What you are saying is a lot like claiming that you can't design bridges using a relativistic model just because we use Newtonian physics to do it today.
The atomic model depicted on Voyager is still just a simplified model. If they have a different model it might not be recognizable to them.

Re:core point

[myowntrueself]

If they have an atomic model other than the concept of electrons and protons they don't have advanced electronics and so no means to detect the Voyager message other than after it impacts their planet.

Alternatively, if they actually know about physics our representation of the atomic model might make as much sense to their physicists as the Ptolemaic representation of the solar system (with its epicycles) might make to our astrophysicists and be equally unintelligible.

(sorry, with all due respect to physicists I can't help but think that humanities understanding of physics must be infantile).

Re:core point

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the main issue with interpreting the Voyager plates is the usage of the Bohr atomic model for hydrogen atoms.

Great point. By the way, we should stop using that ridiculous and primitive model [more correctly the Rutherford-Bohr model] to teach young people. This introduce an unnecessary noise to the real understanding of atoms. Show them depictions of the electron probability cloud.

Re:core point

[Anonymous Coward]

Most humans using our advanced, comparing with transport available to say our neanderthal brethren (I do not mean republicans), are silly as fuck and are not capable of reasoning, forget about advanced type of it.

Re:core point

[Tom]

We then need to create a signal that is clearly different than that which is produced by natural processes lacking intelligence.

This will give you attention, but not communication.

Transporting meaning, i.e. signal, is more than just making sure you get noticed. How to encode meaning is largely arbitrary and requires a common understanding between sender and receipient. See to the early days of the Cyc project for enlightenment on just how many assumptions are in even the most simple of our communications.

The problem is not generating a signal. Any infant can do that pretty much from the moment it's born. The problem is being understood, and that takes years, even if you are completely embedded in the structure that creates language.

Re:core point

[Tom]

Once one has transmitted the means to convey information and technology, plans can be transmitted (ala Contact, but with technology for biological creation, not communication). One could send to another world every last step needed to create and nurture a human being in-situ,

You are assuming that life as we know it is meaningful to advanced species, and I challenge that assumption.

Life on earth made a leap forward when cells began working together and specializing. The same process is already going on in human societies - many of us are so specialised that we would have a hard time surviving outside the city and the logistics systems that provide us with water, food, electricity (for heat) and build our houses and roads. Imagine this goes on for another thousand years, with humans becoming the equivalent of cells. Highly specialised, completely linked into a larger system that becomes the new entity.

Life of such scale does not have restrictions that we have, the same way we are not impacted by the death of some individual cells in our body. Such a lifeform could easily engage in interstellar travel, even with the hundreds and thousands of years it takes. Its individual "cells" would die and reproduce, but it as a whole would continue.

You can even see nation states or cultures as a primitive version of such life. An identity above and beyond the individual. A frightening prospect for us westerners, who live in a culture that celebrates individualism. For asians, such ideas are much less frightening.

Re:core point

[Rei]

Such a lifeform could easily engage in interstellar travel, even with the hundreds and thousands of years it takes.

Most sci-fi fans vastly underestimate the difficulty of even getting remotely close to the speed of light. The last, optimized, peer-reviewed design for a pure antimatter-driven ship that I saw - the highest performance you're going to get without beamed power, and beamed power suffers from range problems among others - was to reach about 0,4c. That's pure anitmatter, which vastly outperforms fusion and fission. Making antimatter inherently means turning mass to energy, wherein a very tiny fraction will condense out as antiprotons, which you can then trap. So you're taking E=mc^2, reversing it, and then taking only a tiny fraction of even that. Actually mass producing the vast amounts of antimatter needed for such starships would take a civilization advanced to Type 2 scale. It's nice to fantasize that the universe is full of Type 2 and Type 3 civilizations, but that's a huge thing to posit.

It's also easy to posit generation ships. But as the saying goes, shit happens. The longer you're in transit, the more likely that is to happen. Which means you have to make your ship vastly larger, to be increasingly redundant, parts in one part increasingly isolated from others, much larger crews than just the minimum skeleton crew needed to populate a planet, etc. Unless all you're sending are artificial wombs and eggs. But then you're back to my initial posit, that such information could be transmitted to an alien species directly at the speed of light.

Re:core point

[tehcyder]

I think the main issue with interpreting the Voyager plates is the usage of the Bohr atomic model for hydrogen atoms.

Great point. By the way, we should stop using that ridiculous and primitive model [more correctly the Rutherford-Bohr model] to teach young people. This introduce an unnecessary noise to the real understanding of atoms. Show them depictions of the electron probability cloud.

Good luck explaining what an electron probability cloud is to ten year olds.

Re:core point

[Tom]

It's also easy to posit generation ships.

But that is the whole point of my post. For life one level up, where humans (or whatever we turn into) are merely the equivalent of cells, a trip of a few hundred years would not be a generation. It would be the equivalent of the week- and month-long sea journeys our ancestors took.

There are no "aliens"

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no extraterrestrial life and no super advanced cosmic civilizations. This is a product of sci fi and human imagination. There will never be any contact with aliens because they do not exist.
 
If you understand the first thing about metaphysics, you know that the very idea of "aliens" is internally inconsistent.

Re:There are no "aliens"

[Rei]

If you understand the first thing about metaphysics,

I have a solid background in phrenology, is that good enough?

Re:There are no "aliens"

[Anonymous Coward]

What does this have to do with anything?

Re:There are no "aliens"

[Anonymous Coward]

Metaphysics, metaphysics ... ah, now I remember! Wasn't that the book that was standing just behind Aristotle's "Physics" in the library of our monastery. Let me check... ah, it's the July 1969 issue of Playboy! There it is!

Re:There are no "aliens"

[dave420]

Metaphysics and phrenology are both nonsense, hence Rei's rhetorical question.

Re:There are no "aliens"

[geantvert]

Phrenology! Is that similar to Dickology but only applied to human heads?

Re:There are no "aliens"

[Anonymous Coward]

According to your dumb ass?

Re:There are no "aliens"

[tehcyder]

Metaphysics and phrenology are both nonsense, hence Rei's rhetorical question.

Metaphysics is not nonsense. It just refers to stuff that we can't explain with (current) physics. For the Ancient Greeks "what is light" would have been a metaphysical question, in the same way you could argue that "what is gravity" is now.

LINCOS

[aaaaaaargh!]

Read LINCOS: Design of a Language for Cosmic Intercourse, Part 1 by Hans Freudenthal, North Holland Publ. 1960. Unfortunately, he never got to publish the second volume covering more advanced concepts, but the language was further developed by NASA and by various enthusiasts later. It's still the most systematic treatment for communicating with aliens.

Re:LINCOS

[Anonymous Coward]

"cosmic intercourse" hehe ..

Re:LINCOS

[Anonymous Coward]

Read LINCOS: Design of a Language for Cosmic Intercourse, Part 1 by Hans Freudenthal, North Holland Publ. 1960. Unfortunately, he never got to publish the second volume covering more advanced concepts, but the language was further developed by NASA and by various enthusiasts later. It's still the most systematic treatment for communicating with aliens.

I've read up on it and this is what I hope to achieve. When you mentioned there was a book, I found one on amazon called LINCOS: Astrolinguistics: Design of a Linguistic System for Interstellar Communication Based on Logic.
Is it related? What book would you recommend for LINCOS? Libraries aren't dead.

Thanks....

Re:LINCOS

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not the same book. I don't know the book by Ollongren you mention, so I can't tell you whether it's good or not. The reference I gave is for the original book in the prestigious North Holland mathematics series. AFAIK, it hasn't been republished, is long out of print and hard to get, but I recommend it if you're not afraid of mathematics / old fashioned Carnap-style logic. It's easiest to get from a large research / state library.

Re:LINCOS

[Anonymous Coward]

So you get moderated up while the AC said the same thing....

Re:LINCOS

[Anonymous Coward]

hah you got modded up while the AC who said the same was ignored!

Yep this is communication.

Re:LINCOS

[Anonymous Coward]

I wrote that when there twelve posts in total and there was no AC post on LINCOS. You should perhaps learn how /. works.

Re:LINCOS

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you even talking about?

Re:LINCOS

[tehcyder]

He's probably an alien struggling to communicate.

not a very good article

[binarstu]

TFA (not the linked wikipedia article) basically just asks the question, "what if an alien's sensory systems (vision and hearing) were far more acute than ours?", and then gives a rather superficial answer to that question. TFA seems to be trying to make the argument that if an alien's vision or hearing were better than ours, the alien would not be able to comprehend our electronic visual displays or sound reproductions. The argument is not convincing at all, though. After all, we have color vision, but black and white media still works quite well for us.

TFA also makes some rather silly statements, such as, "With its advanced hearing, perhaps the Oculako [TFA's name for the alien] even transmits complex data by sound." Yeah, humans already do that, every day. Human speech is pretty good tool for transmitting "complex data by sound." Or, for a technological example, how does the author think fax machines and telephone-line data modems work?

Finally, the title of the Slashdot summary is "How To Make Messages Easy For an Alien Race To Understand", but TFA doesn't even attempt to answer that question. In fact, the article ends with this: "...it’s a very difficult problem to come up with an interspecies communication mechanism. ... Given the technological advances since the 1970s how would you design this era’s golden record?" And that's it. The closest TFA comes to the question is asking the reader how he or she would solve it.

Re:not a very good article

[michelcolman]

Yes, if we can decipher whale sounds, I don't see why aliens would have any difficulty deciphering our images and sounds. They might not see anything if they look at one of our CRT monitors, but they certainly could decipher the transmission and display it on whatever device they use. Not that they would be able to make sense of it right away, but the particular difficulties listed in the article are actually the easiest to solve.

Re:not a very good article

[drinkypoo]

TFA (not the linked wikipedia article) basically just asks the question, "what if an alien's sensory systems (vision and hearing) were far more acute than ours?", and then gives a rather superficial answer to that question.

I knew it would do that when I started running into grammatical errors. I was right.

TFA seems to be trying to make the argument that if an alien's vision or hearing were better than ours, the alien would not be able to comprehend our electronic visual displays or sound reproductions. The argument is not convincing at all, though. After all, we have color vision, but black and white media still works quite well for us.

They were arguing that our displays depend on persistence of vision, and that this creature won't have any. A preposterous notion, because persistence of vision is in the brain, not the eye, and we've known this for over a hundred years. But this argument pales next to the stupidity of the argument that a creature with a higher hearing range wouldn't be able to perceive our audible communications. Really? That's so stupid, I can't even stupid how stupid it's stupid. We have pets with higher hearing ranges, and they can literally understand what we are saying in some cases as their brains are sufficiently developed. They're claiming a smarter entity with more advanced senses won't be able to understand us? That's nothing short of idiotic.

The truth is that aliens are not unlikely to look a lot like us, because you still have physics to deal with no matter where you go. A creature with four legs is still at a disadvantage when it comes to industrialization. You need some manipulators attached to your body, but not too many because more parts just means more to go wrong, it's actually a liability. Too much hair makes it hard for you to manipulate fire, which you need to advance as a tool maker. If you can't walk upright, you can't free your hands for masturbation.

Re:not a very good article

[thinkwaitfast]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... and xenopsychology.

Re:not a very good article

[Theaetetus]

But this argument pales next to the stupidity of the argument that a creature with a higher hearing range wouldn't be able to perceive our audible communications. Really? That's so stupid, I can't even stupid how stupid it's stupid. We have pets with higher hearing ranges, and they can literally understand what we are saying in some cases as their brains are sufficiently developed. They're claiming a smarter entity with more advanced senses won't be able to understand us? That's nothing short of idiotic.

Not to mention the fact that the article posited incredible hearing all the way up to 100kHz! Of course, that's really less than two and a half octaves higher than normal human hearing.

If you can't walk upright, you can't free your hands for masturbation.

Which is why the Tyrannosaurus Rex was always so sad.

Re:not a very good article

[tepples]

A creature with four legs is still at a disadvantage when it comes to industrialization.

Would the same be true of a creature with two arms that double as legs?

Re:not a very good article

[drinkypoo]

Would the same be true of a creature with two arms that double as legs?

A creature with that much ass and that little leg would be at a serious disadvantage in a machine shop

Animals

[Anonymous Coward]

We can't even communicate effectively with life-forms on our own planet (unless /they've/ adapted somehow to communicate with us), why would we expect life forms fundementally different to us to understand anything? Mankind has a big ego.

Re:Animals

[jellomizer]

We can communicate with animals. We can learn there gestures, mannerisms, vocal noises, even analyse the smells they produce. We can often tell if they are happy, sad, angry at least for mammals and birds. However animals don't have the same level of communication that people do. Sure some animals makes complex sounds but it doesn't mean they are performing complex grammar. A Dolphin going Screech - Chirpity - click - click may just mean "Fish over here", and perhaps an identifier on who he is.
We can identify this stuff. We think we cannot communicate with animals because we don't get into these deep conversations with them but they don't think like that. They are not that deep.

Re:Animals

[Anonymous Coward]

I like spiders because they eat mosquitoes. Do the the same with spiders.... Oops...

Are the laws of physics the same everywhere?

[yes-but-no]

Q: Are the laws of physics the same everywhere?

human: Yes

[Laws of physics (LoP) laughs; it's the LoP that created the human brain -- so it can make the human say whatever it wants it to say about LoP .. it's like what you tell your 4 year old.. it repeats back .. you do the programming]. Coming back ..how do you define an alien? why can't they have a different set of laws of physics?

Re:Are the laws of physics the same everywhere?

[jellomizer]

Laws of physics allows for Randomness, or at least a complex set of cause and effects that is beyond the ability to predict, as the attempt to measure all the factors will change their outcome, or a less sciency person may say these values we cannot be controlled by us are being controlled by a greater intelligence force. Needless to say in all intensive purposes there is randomness. Random stuff tends to balance itself out on the macro scale. Planets and Stars are round, and they orbit each other in elliptical orbits, they spin in galaxies.... But as you get into the smaller we find more randomness. That sandy beach may be made from different rocks, which may have a different properties. So animals who evolved to live on these beaches had adapted to deal with these difference, embracing the environments strengths and protecting itself from its dangers. So a bug evolved on one sandy beach with sand that has smooth edges may be more prone to digging in it to hide, while sand with sharper edges may be better used to cover the animal as to protect itself.
The environment you exist on will direct how you evolve. Our brains are designed for grassy plains, where we walk upright to be taller than grass, we can use our eyes and ears to find prey and avoid predators. Our smell isn't so great, but being above the grassline the stuff we would be able to smell wouldn't be as useful information. But we had learned to communicate with sight and sound.
An alien would have evolved with a much different set of random elements. Say like a bunch of mole men. No need for eye-sight. but much more on smell and sound. An intelligent group of life forms with less or no site would be making different observations. Except for reaching to the stars, they may be wanting to dig to the planet core. And they share information over the sniffernet. Their world view would be alien to us making communication difficult. and even undetectable by other advanced races.

Re:Are the laws of physics the same everywhere?

[Anonymous Coward]

Laws of physics allows for Randomness, or at least a complex set of cause and effects that is beyond the ability to predict

Determinism is the foundation of science.
Modern mathematics might not be developed enough or even suitable to describe the world as it is but nature of science is such that it assumes that the future can be predicted given the knowledge of the current state.
I strongly disagree with your first six words and fully agree with the words that follows.

Re:Are the laws of physics the same everywhere?

[fisted]

Q: Are the laws of physics the same everywhere?

human: Unless there's some indication for that they're not, it's useless to assume it. So far, in all places we have looked - and can look pretty far - the laws of physics have always be the same everywhere.

FTFY

why can't [aliens] have a different set of laws of physics?

They can. Can we do something about it? No. Can we research that hypothietical, completely unknown "set of laws of physics"? No.

Likewise, it's equally possible that we were created by the great invisible pink unicorn. Does it make sense to assume we were? No. Why?

Re:Are the laws of physics the same everywhere?

[geantvert]

Hummm... I am pretty sure that any quantum physicist would disagree with you.

Re:Are the laws of physics the same everywhere?

[Anonymous Coward]

Say like a bunch of mole men. No need for eye-sight. but much more on smell and sound. An intelligent group of life forms with less or no site would be making different observations. Except for reaching to the stars, they may be wanting to dig to the planet core. And they share information over the sniffernet. .

Any superior intelligent being will have extended sensing capabilities. They'll sense more, not less. So no mole people.

Re:Are the laws of physics the same everywhere?

[KGIII]

Hmm... We don't really have laws so much as a we have a working model - and I understand it doesn't even work in all situations. We call some things laws because they're respected and, as yet, disproved but they're not so much laws as they're written in stone. Hell, even Newton's Law of Gravitation isn't quite right.

Re:Are the laws of physics the same everywhere?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh look. It's this fallacy again.

Re:Are the laws of physics the same everywhere?

[RespekMyAthorati]

in all intensive purposes there is

OK.
Next post.

aliens are too busy ...

[Skapare]

... watching Big Bang Theory.

Re:aliens are too busy ...

[Anonymous Coward]

To an alien, Earth may be a planetary, continually running entertainment/education channel - Wild Kingdom or Animal Planet or even The Truman Show. If Earth is a planetary zoo, the zoo keepers would not want to break the 4th wall and reveal their presence - it could ruin the experiment. The Prime Directive is another example of this concept.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoo_hypothesis

Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[X10]

Aliens that find us will probably be so much more advanced than we are, they'll put us in their zoo, or they'll eat us. There should be a law against contacting intelligent alien life forms.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

This.
Only complete morons think otherwise.
And politicians, whose decisions lead to chaos that they hope can be fixed miraculously by advanced alien visitors. Politicians are traitors. On so many levels.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

Come on, everyone knows there are blue skinned chicks out there who just wait for you.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[unique_parrot]

Don't worry, until they have received the message we have already extincted ourselves.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

I vote for zoo.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

You already are in the zoo you just don't know it.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

Blue skinned chicks? I'd definitely plug my pony tail in that.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[sinij]

You come across a giant ant hill, one that populated by ants that could probably bite you but unlikely to ever kill unless you let them. What do you do? Study it from a distance if it is novel, but mostly leave it alone. Unless it is on your property.

Lets hope we are not on anyone's galactic property.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[Cro Magnon]

I don't think space aliens would travel thousands of light-years for a Homo Sapiens sandwich. We don't taste that good. Zoos might be a legitimate concern. They might think, with justification, that they're saving us from extinction.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[Xyrus]

Aliens that find us will probably be so much more advanced than we are, they'll put us in their zoo, or they'll eat us. There should be a law against contacting intelligent alien life forms.

No. No they wouldn't.

If aliens had the technology to make the interstellar trek to us in any reasonable time frame, then they have moved well beyond the want or need for imprisoning and/or consuming random life they encounter. It's also unlikely that they would want or need Earth for resources, as they would have the technology to easily gather what they need from any number of uninhabited worlds throughout the galaxy. Not only that, but it's also likely that they have moved beyond inconveniences like mortality.

At best, an advanced alien species capable of interstellar travel would find us to be a curiosity. With their technology, wiping out humans, and indeed all life on Earth, would be trivial. They wouldn't need an army or death star like weapon. All they'd need to do is find a nice asteroid an aim it at Earth. Or if they wanted subtle they could engineer a super virus/nano-death-machines and surreptitiously drop it over a major population center.

Or maybe they would just sit back and wait for us to destroy ourselves, since we seem pretty hellbent on doing that. If your practically immortal, then waiting a hundred or a thousand years for a barely conscious species to self-destruct really isn't that big of a deal, and may even provide some level of entertainment.

In short, there really isn't any reason for an advanced alien race to be hostile towards us, intentionally or otherwise.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

There are at least two compelling reasons for any advanced technological species to conquer or eliminate us:

1) Remove a potential threat or competitor. Given the aggressive tendencies of humanity, preemptive containment or extermination is entirely rational.
2) Earth itself is prime real estate for any species that we could possibly have meaningful contact with. It has liquid water, an N2/O2 atmosphere, a stable star, and a magnetosphere. There's plenty of precedent for advanced cultures eliminating the natives and moving in where they used to live.

In short, either we're [effectively] alone in the universe, or we're screwed.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm... no.

If Humans had the technology to make the intercontinental trek to us in any reasonable time frame, then they have moved well beyond the want or need for imprisoning and/or consuming random life they encounter.

Just look at history, such as Japan's atrocities against all of their neighbours.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think space aliens would travel thousands of light-years for a Homo Sapiens sandwich. We don't taste that good. Zoos might be a legitimate concern. They might think, with justification, that they're saving us from extinction.

And then there are those who hypothesize that our little corner of the galaxy is already being treated as a nature preserve.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

Or build a Walmart parking lot on top of it, destroying it in the process.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[myowntrueself]

You come across a giant ant hill, one that populated by ants that could probably bite you but unlikely to ever kill unless you let them. What do you do?

What do you do, lets see.

You take your most nasty villains and you stake them out on the ant hill and cover their genitalia with honey.

I wonder if thats whats happening here...

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[UnknownSoldier]

> Aliens that find us will probably be so much more advanced than we are, they'll put us in their zoo, or they'll eat us.

false dichotomy. You left of options 3 and 4.

OR being sufficiently advanced they respect all life and want to interact with all the different life forms in the galaxy to learn how our human perspective is different and similar to theirs.
ALONG WITH most alien species are completely AFRAID of humans as they know our true potential. They want NOTHING to do with us until we grow the fuck up (spiritually.)

> There should be a law against contacting intelligent alien life forms.

And good luck _enforcing_ _THEM_ to obey it.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've always thought that any civilization that got advanced enough to spread out through the universe would be on one extreme of the spectrum of ways to interact with other civilizations: they would either be really good at making friends and getting everyone to cooperate peacefully or they would be really good at killing other civilizations which don't cooperate with them.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[Cro Magnon]

There are at least two compelling reasons for any advanced technological species to conquer or eliminate us:

1) Remove a potential threat or competitor. Given the aggressive tendencies of humanity, preemptive containment or extermination is entirely rational.

We're about as threatening to anyone capable of interstellar travel as an ocean jellyfish is to someone in Missouri. I could see them keeping an eye on us and making sure we don't get the capability of leaving our solar system until we get our violence under control, but otherwise, why would they bother.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think space aliens would travel thousands of light-years for a Homo Sapiens sandwich. We don't taste that good.

How do you know the flavor profile of human meat?

Zoos might be a legitimate concern. They might think, with justification, that they're saving us from extinction.

Farmers think in similar ways but for far different reasons.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[david_thornley]

The problem with that logic is that it's human. If we had Star Trek-style ships, we'd go around our area of the galaxy and study everybody. We'd have no need to mine any resources on those planets, and the primitive civilizations would be unable to produce any manufactured product we couldn't get far more cheaply. (I don't think sending any commodities over interstellar distances will ever be economic: we'd be able to produce the same stuff cheaper.)

Of course, if starships were cheap enough, we'd have people like Harvey Fenton Mudd moving in and trying to take over. Were the aliens human, that would be the biggest threat.

Alien thought processes and attitudes would be different, and I can't realistically speculate on them. It's entirely possible that they'll have what they consider an excellent reason to annihilate all life on Earth. It'd be quick, anyway.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[drinkypoo]

ALONG WITH most alien species are completely AFRAID of humans as they know our true potential. They want NOTHING to do with us until we grow the fuck up (spiritually.)

You must be assuming some galactic police force existing too, then, because if they're afraid of us and developed enough to be aware of us they can almost certainly send us a rock that we can't cope with.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[cdrudge]

I don't think space aliens would travel thousands of light-years for a Homo Sapiens sandwich. We don't taste that good.

Taste is a matter of preference. If a civilization is advanced enough that they could travel thousands of light-years, I wouldn't rule out anything from what their particular taste preferences are.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

The q. is - are they hairy? Do they have big blue big tits and tasty blue pussy?

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's like us finding an ant hill in the middle of a wasteland.

As long as there's no use for us, they'll ignore us. But if they find that formic acid from ants makes for useful industrial chemical, they'll _farm_ us so that there is a constant supply.

Once could argue that they _are_ doing this right now by the sudden spurt in knowledge and technology over the last 3 centuries.

Except to derive whatever utility from us, they don't need to kill us, but have us interact more and think more and ... fight more wars, I guess (%age of war casualties going down, yes, but number of casualties going way up due to farming lot more of us)

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[KGIII]

Does it matter? I'm going to figure out a way to sex it regardless. I mean, hell, it's an alien! Imma fuck it. (As someone's name here is so eloquently put. And as a friend of mine might say.)

Assuming it's game and doesn't mind my trying, after all.

Re:Don't contact aliens. Don't.

[sinij]

I don't see any evidence of honey, but then we might not know the difference and take its presence for given.

duh

[behrooz0az]

Just attach it to a word document, Every single retard I know seems to know how those work.

Re:duh

[PolygamousRanchKid]

Just attach it to a word document

If the Aliens have any intelligence at all, they won't open any attachments from folks from another planet.

If the Aliens want to conquer us, all they need to do, is to send us nasty stuff in attachments. Some idiot here on Earth will open it, and we will all be turned into a Alien Earthling Burger Botnet.

Yum, yum.

Re:duh

[Anonymous Coward]

>implying aliens use microsoft's buggy software
>implying they don't use superior linux-based OS

Re:duh

[Anonymous Coward]

If they're any smart, they'll use BSD, though.

Forget it.

[Anonymous Coward]

One cannot even communicate reliably with humans having one deficient X chromosome (Up syndrome).

Easy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Send pictures. As they say: "A picture is worth a thousand words".

They could also send them star constellations so they can triangulate our location within the galaxy (if they're feelin' crazy)

Re:Easy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Send pictures. As they say: "A picture is worth a thousand words".

They could also send them star constellations so they can triangulate our location within the galaxy (if they're feelin' crazy)

Lets send them the goatse.cx picture... I've always wanted to know what an interstellar war looks like.

It Doesn't Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't matter.
It's useless science and waste of money.
Oh, wait, that what useless people do today.

Re:It Doesn't Matter

[Dunbal]

I am assuming that you have mentally divided the world into two groups of people - useless and useful ones. I'm also assuming you have placed yourself in the "useful" category. There is no such thing as a useless human.

Re:It Doesn't Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no such thing as a useless human.

I beg to differ.

Re:It Doesn't Matter

[tehcyder]

There is no such thing as a useless human.

I beg to differ.

I counter with: Donald Trump.

The British have known the answer for years

[Chrisq]

How To Make Messages Easy For an Alien Race To Understand

Just speak loudly, use short sentences and include what ever small bits of any foreign language you know. If they don't understand speak in an adulterated way:

Englishman to Alien: Me Human. You Alien. We Friends. Comprendrez?
Alien to Englishman: (some sort of bioluminescent flashing)
Englishman to Alien: Huuuuuuuman. Aleeean Frieeeends. Das ist gut, Jah?"
Alien to Englishman: (some sort of bioluminescent flashing)

Re:The British have known the answer for years

[Anonymous Coward]

I was going to say just TYPE THE MESSAGE IN ALL CAPS.

Works every time.

Is this a good idea?

[Dunbal]

Animal behavior teaches us the importance of bluffing and looking bigger, meaner or scarier than you actually are. While there's no reason to assume that xenobiology would be the same, there's no reason to assume it would be different either. Leaving aside the question of whether it's a good idea to even attempt communication at all - could a simple, easy to understand message be interpreted as weakness?

Re:Is this a good idea?

[cablepokerface]

I would think the biggest weakness from the get go is that they have the tech to come here, not the other way around. They know it and you know it. I would discourage to make yourself 'look bigger, meaner or scarier than you actually are' lest you wish the resolve the first contact situation with minus 1 planet.

Re:Is this a good idea?

[Mariner28]

Weakness? No. Bait? Hell yes...

Mars Bars, gg wp.

[bronney]

Wondering if there's any food that thaw well from the frozen space~

Nice try hackaday

[Anonymous Coward]

In 3 or 4 days will we see an interminable slide show containing "possible ways to communicate with aliens", with content oddly similar to what others have suggested here?

Is it a good idea? Remember Chief Ullumongo

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

The island that was later named Peterssen Island is a tiny spec in the vast Pacific Ocean. Barely five feet off the sea level it is nearly invisible even to ships barely three miles away. It had neither bird colonies nor coconut palms. It was very fortunately situated, the atmospheric air currents and ocean currents were such that it would rain regularly like a clockwork every evening at sunset. There was no source of fresh water in two hundred mile radius around that island.

It had a very small band of humans living there, and their Chief Ullumongo had a vision that there are other human beings in the ocean. They came from them, and the other humans are descendants of their ancestors who are searching for them. He ordered that every day at sun rise the islanders should build a bonfire with thick column of smoke that could be seen for several dozens of miles. He was sure if they let them know they are there, they will come.

It took them several decades, Chief Ullumongo was old, frail and infirm, his grandson Amonomongo was the reigning chief when the ship captained by Eric Peterssen saw the column of smoke. The only safe anchorage and fresh water withing 200 miles ... The island was too important to be left to the natives. They were soon wiped out, the story of Chief Ullumongo is buried in some captain's log in some naval museum of Amsterdam.

Is it really wise to let "them" know we are here?

Re:Is it a good idea? Remember Chief Ullumongo

[binarstu]

Do you have any references for this story? A Google search for "Chief Ullumongo" turns up nothing.

Re:Is it a good idea? Remember Chief Ullumongo

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Sorry for pulling a Senator Jon Kyl on you.

Re:Is it a good idea? Remember Chief Ullumongo

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Except we have nothing worth coming here for.

Re:Is it a good idea? Remember Chief Ullumongo

[Anonymous Coward]

Earth is the only planet with bacon-wrapped, cream-cheese stuffed jalapenos in the universe.

Re:Is it a good idea? Remember Chief Ullumongo

[KGIII]

Pfft... Me! They'll be coming here to meet the one and great David, aka, KGIII and will be elevating him to the position of Supreme Rule of the Galaxy where he will be the kindest benevolent dictator who hands down wise decrees and ensures tranquility between the species until we suffer from death by entropy. And lo it is written in the great book, it shall be so.

*nods*

Don't argue, I know these things.

Re:Is it a good idea? Remember Chief Ullumongo

[tehcyder]

Do you have any references for this story? A Google search for "Chief Ullumongo" turns up nothing.

Oddly, it doesn't even give a link to the parent's post. Has Google given up indexing slashdot or something?

Re:Is it a good idea? Remember Chief Ullumongo

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

now it shows up. It was not modded up enough to be picked sooner,

So Simple

[imikem]

Obviously, we should just speak English, ssslllloooooowwwwww and LOUD!!!!! Everyone understands that. Especially aliens, who are all just humans with weird coloration and skin conditions.

Re:So Simple

[myowntrueself]

Obviously, we should just speak English, ssslllloooooowwwwww and LOUD!!!!! Everyone understands that. Especially aliens, who are all just humans with weird coloration and skin conditions.

Well based on everything I've been taught about alien life, mostly its just a variation in forehead configurations... And their females all have interesting chest-bumps.

Waste of time and money

[DirkDaring]

If you are even remotely good at math you know that looking or contacting aliens is pointless. Our galaxy is over 13 billion years old, we haven't been around long enough. Give a few more hundred thousand years and the chances will increase slightly.

Just do it.

[IMarvinTPA]

Apparently, they have been around long enough that they know our languages already. http://spherebeingalliance.com... The telepathic ones are even better off.

Just Smile!

[MagickalMyst]

A smiley face etched into the earth that can be seen from space should be sufficient.

Not too hard

[Kjella]

1. Detection
Pulses of prime numbers. Not natural phenomenon, same in all number systems. Simple beat with silence:

2-3-5-7-11-13-17-19
011
0111
011111
01111111
011111111111
01111111111111
011111111111111111
01111111111 111111111

2. Binary, you speak it
We repeat this in binary, which should be fairly easy to recognize as the previous information aligned to 8 bit = byte values.
00000010 00000011 00000101 00000111
00001011 00001101 00010001 00010011

3. Length of payload in bytes + payload
00000000 00000000 00000001 10110000 = 432
432 x ????????

4. Goto 1, rotate payload.

As for the actual payload.... You could for example send atom configuration from the periodic table.
1 - 1
2 - 2
3 - 2,1
...
10 - 2,8
11 - 2,8,1
...
18 - 2,8,8
19 - 2,8,8,1
20 - 2,8,8,2
21 - 2,8,9,2
22 - 2,8,10,2
23 - 2,8,11,2
24 - 2,8,13,1
etc.

It will be pretty obvious to any physicist this is the list of elements. Using that and a bit more you can explain the units of mass, time, distance and so on.

For math you can send a list of (input A, operator code, input B, result) and it will be obvious that this operator means addition, subtraction, multiplication, division and so on. Once you have subtraction, explain 0-1 and two's complement and you'll have negative numbers.

Then you can start making advanced concepts like C+O+O = CO2 and describe properties of that gas. I really don't think it's going to become a problem bootstrapping communication, if we could just find someone to communicate with.

Who's the smartest?

[Anonymous Coward]

If they are more advanced / smarter than we are, then WE don't have to solve the "how to communicate?" problem.

Only if we are the advanced / smarter race, do we need to worry about it.

For now, we aren't advanced enough to be sending out really powerful signals -- ones which would remain powerful across the galaxy (at least thousands of light years). So for now, if we contact aliens, it will be because they contact us. If they can do that, it's either because they have put forth a titanic effort into the process, or they are a lot more advanced. So, the general assumption is that they will have solved the communication problem for us.

Still, as a speculative field of research, we may learn things from trying to solve the problem on our own. And if we turn out to be an Elder Species in the galaxy, well then it will be handy if we already solved the problem cause we were curious.

I know that part of what we focus on NOW, is to make our signal look like a signal -- we want it to stand out, as clearly artificial, clearly something made -- not some random static. To do that, we focus on mathematical patterns, assuming that really long patterns of numbers will be considered so unlikely to be random, that the aliens will realize that we are trying to get their attention.

on the detection standpoint, thats what we are looking for. We have to assume the aliens won't use super advanced encryption technology to hide their signal -- if they want to contact us, we hope they will realize that we need them to hit us with the most obvious message possible. So we look for radio signals that contain patterns that seem impossibly-un-random.

Once we both know that we are trying to talk to each other, we've got the second problem on how to actually do it. My bet is that both sides will be sending each other to Kindergarten, teaching them our A B C's, and them teaching us their X Y Z's.

Lessons from Hollywood

[Nidi62]

If we've learned anything from movies it's that we definitely don't want to try to communicate with a Sikorsky helicopter outfitted with banks of flashing lights.

Emojis

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject. Let them think we're all idiots.

Gather up all

[Anonymous Coward]

Gather up all the angry brown men in the world and have them go to the aliens' planet as "refugees". If the aliens protest and claim that the "refugees" are really just an act of war to overrun and replace the native population, call them "specists" or "planetists" or some such and shout them down into silence. Have the "refugees" claim they represent a "culture of peace" while raping the aliens' women and demanding that the aliens change their culture to be more accommodating.

That should send a message no intelligent life could mistake.

Species, not race

[Anonymous Coward]

Please get the terminology straight (unlike most SF movies/books).

Radio silence

[RubberDogBone]

Aside from some radar beams and a very few directed communication attempts, no radio signals generated by humans would be detectable at even the closest star system. Regular broadcast TV and radio and most other things are simply too weak.

Those signals will probably not make it out of the solar system. A passing ship or probe might hear us. But probably not.

Some very high-power military radars might be detectable at a distance but those signals aren't meant to communicate. They would appear artificial, though, and might be noticed. Arecibo has transmitted a few times. Those signals might make it and might be interpreted as communication.

But the old myth about aliens watching our old TV shows or listening to radio dramas is just not going to happen.

oil company seismic data used to any binary format

[peter303]

Back before the mid 1980s when they settled on an interchange standard. So in my grad research we'd get these mystery tape bit dumps. I had a rough idea of the structure of the data, but not its exact shape, nor even its number format- many more floating point and integer formats in the old days. So with "od -o" I'd coax an image out these mystery bit dumps. I think it would be fairly straight forward to do this with AM, FM signals.

math is likely a universal language

[peter303]

up to a certain point

human language is very telegraphic

[peter303]

That means relatively terse for the deep experiences behind words and sentences. This has confounded deep language understanding by earth machine intelligences for decades.

Human language is telegraphic because because our minds probably operate 99% the same way. We only need to drop brief hints to others to convey shared experiences. We learn language quickly as children because we assume to know mostly what other minds are up to.

This could make it difficult to communicate with alien minds on non-scientific matters.

If they're so smart...

[seven of five]

An alien race with only OUR level of intelligence/development, upon receiving broadcasts from Earth, would recognize them almost immediately as not being from natural phenomena and would have them decoded in a fairly short time. Maybe the signals would make sense, maybe not, but we would surely have their attention. The hard part would be a 2-way communication, as there might be significant cognitive/sensory/cultural differences to overcome.

utter conjecture

[mschaffer]

This is all complete conjecture until we contact an "alien race".

Tip

[Tablizer]

1. Don't use Perl

bomb .

[swell]

Weapons are the universal language on earth. Throughout history they have been the harbinger of cultural intersections be they families, tribes or nations. They mark territories and religious domains. The desire for weapons stimulates progress in many other areas of life not the least of which is the economy of every significant culture. Weapons are the Lowest Common Denominator of life on earth and the distinguishing factor separating intelligent from other life forms.

Instead of the Voyager Golden Record, send them a big bad bomb to enlighten and warn them about us.

Chirality

[syrupdude]

I've never seen a decent explanation oh how to communicate chirality to aliens. IOW, how do they determine if the message we send, and the mirror image of the message we send, is the right one. What happens when we meet in person millenia from now and they have everything backwards?

Re:...uhh - Some messages will be destroyed

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't bother. If they have the ability to pick up the signal, they'll have the ability to decipher the message.

You're neglecting something: Will the recipients care about the message?

Consider the message expressed in the giant Buddha statues in Bamiyan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamiyan
The elites in the society decided that the message was foreign. Some time later, in 2001, the statues were destroyed with artillery.

Duuude!

[rmdingler]

I hope you're using that bigass brain to better humanity.

"Aliens" are already here!

[martinfb]

Didn't you know?! Isn't it obvious? They walk among us! They already understand our languages. Oh - I see. You mean OTHER aliens - that aren't as advanced as the ones here. The ones that we are being cultivated to pass our gifts on-to. Guess that puts "us" in the middle! Does that mean we are not at the top of the food chain?!

Re:"Aliens" are already here!

[duhjim]

Why wouldn't they leave this anemic light cone as soon as they possibly could ?