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EFF: the Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared (eff.org)

An anonymous reader writes: Wikileaks has released the finalized Intellectual Property text of the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), which international negotiators agreed upon a few days ago. Unfortunately, it contains many of the consumer-hostile provisions that so many organizations spoke out against beforehand. This includes the extension of the copyright term to life plus 70 years, and a ban on the circumvention of DRM. The EFF says, "If you dig deeper, you'll notice that all of the provisions that recognize the rights of the public are non-binding, whereas almost everything that benefits rightsholders is binding. That paragraph on the public domain, for example, used to be much stronger in the first leaked draft, with specific obligations to identify, preserve and promote access to public domain material. All of that has now been lost in favor of a feeble, feel-good platitude that imposes no concrete obligations on the TPP parties whatsoever." The EFF walks us through all the other awful provisions as well — it's quite a lengthy analysis.

88 of 399 comments (clear)

  1. Kill it with fire! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Before it lays eggs!

    1. Re:Kill it with fire! by Aurien · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Funny, I don't see Republican's going against this new trade deal. Last I checked they have majority in both houses. They could vote no and stop this, but they'll all vote yes. But yeah, it's all Obama's fault right? Republican's just have to vote yes right?

    2. Re:Kill it with fire! by Njorthbiatr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oh, it's never too late.

      Voltaire was right about assassinations. Seems like we need a system to keep the politicians in line.

    3. Re:Kill it with fire! by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 4, Informative

      When it comes to treaties, the house of senate has to approve it, whereas the house of represenatives has no say in it.

    4. Re:Kill it with fire! by mrbester · · Score: 2

      "John Hinckley Jr used ASSASSINATION!

      It wasn't very successful."

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    5. Re:Kill it with fire! by umghhh · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A treaty that is so secret that even those that have to vote to approve it, cannot read nor discuss it freely - wow that is a new level of democratic development. I thought at least Muricans who are normally confused but dislike secret courts would do something but I guess life is too good. Maybe oligarchy is the best system after all.
      Let us see what EU will do with TTIP - protests are not that relevant for politicians doing what they can do best i.e. selling themselves to highest the bidder but there will be no heavy protests in EU. Peope here are quite busy with watching how silly Germans really are so TTIP may get approved without much fuss. Let us have cheese out of crude oil - it is good for you! Milo Minderbinder was right - people are stupid and tasteless idiots and they will eat soap if they are told it is tasty, maybe even asking for more.

    6. Re:Kill it with fire! by pellik · · Score: 3, Funny

      I saw that too. Didn't Trump list that among his assets in how he justified his claim that he's a billionaire? "head - 100M"

    7. Re:Kill it with fire! by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      Except that a short time back, Congress passed a law that made it so that the TPP (as has been the case with many other trade agreements) only needs a simple majority in both Houses of Congress and the President's signature to become law. This is viewed as easier than getting the required 2/3s of the Senate to concur as would be required for a true treaty.

      Interestingly enough, this suggests to me that getting rid of this "treaty" is as simple as a law passed by both Houses of Congress and signed by the President...without any negotiation with anyone. Unlike a treaty which is technically more difficult.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  2. US to be Blamed by rtb61 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The most ignorant thing about pushing all this in the current global climate with the contortionists US twisting with regard to Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorist/Rebels, everyone will blame America and Americans, everything bad in the TPP and it's ugly sibling TTIP will be blamed on American corporations and sales will suffer accordingly. Want your citizens and country to maintain any semblance of freedom boycott Large US Corporations (small ones run by real Americans apparently are fine, so oddly enough help America rebuild Main Street and protect you own country by working together globally to gut Wall Street).

    --
    Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    1. Re:US to be Blamed by arbiter1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Biggest ones to blame is the Obama admin

    2. Re:US to be Blamed by amiga3D · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This kind of shit always has big bipartisan support. The whores from both parties will put away the facade and do the bidding of their masters.

    3. Re:US to be Blamed by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 2

      Yes because that's the election reality they're living in. But only one side is trying to take the shackles off.

    4. Re:US to be Blamed by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      small ones run by real Americans apparently are fine

      What the fuck is a "real American"? Is it the Canadian-born son of a Cuban refugee who's running for President? Is it the naturalized Iraqi-American who owns a convenience store? How about an Australian who owns some of the most powerful media outlets in the US along with a Saudi prince?

      Please enlighten us.

      I'm all for gutting Wall Street, but when I hear that kind of populism paired up with phrases like "real American" I kind of get the willies.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    5. Re:US to be Blamed by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 3, Informative

      There is plenty of power to create laws to more specifically deny/manage such campaign contributions, but they want to just go for the throat and change the constitution.

      You' haven't been paying attention. Since the Citizens United ruling, such laws as you describe would violate the First Amendment. That's why getting money out of politics requires a new amendment.

    6. Re:US to be Blamed by amiga3D · · Score: 2

      The real problem is it's all a scam. They take issues like affirmative action, abortion, gay rights and other things that the population is divided on and use these things to conquer us. We have two sides that are really just one side but they show two faces. The only time they come together is for things like the TPP. It's not like they care about abortion or gay rights one way or another, it's just smoke and mirrors to keep the populace distracted from the way they're enslaving us. President Obama got elected and even though I didn't vote for him I remember thinking, "well at least we'll get rid of the fucking Patriot Act." No, that didn't happen. Because he really doesn't give a shit about it despite what he said when running for election. Some politicians may actually believe in something they espouse and when they do it throws a wrench in things but in the end the machine always gets what it wants.

    7. Re: US to be Blamed by macsimcon · · Score: 2

      That's just not true. Have a look at Article III, Section 2. Congress can pass laws that cannot be decided by the Supreme Court.

      If Congress passes law which reads "money is property, not speech, and the Supreme Court may not review this law" and the President signs it, that's it. There's nothing Roberts and his cabal of right-wing traitors can do about it.

    8. Re:US to be Blamed by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 2

      This kind of shit always has big bipartisan support.

      Maybe this "shit" has bipartisan support. But Obama ran on a platform, and was elected, to end this "shit", and as a liberal, progressive, biracial constitutional law professor and community organizer, he had about the best possible credentials for the job.

      The lesson to be learned is not that America needs an even better leader than Obama or that Obama was insufficiently liberal/progressive/socialist. The lesson to be learned is that you can't fix crony capitalism and corruption by electing strong leaders that pass laws that end up just being more handouts to lobbies and special interests. The only way to address "this kind of shit" is to limit the power of government.

    9. Re:US to be Blamed by amiga3D · · Score: 2

      I'm all for that but we're the minority. My political leanings are mostly conservative but all the supposed conservatives elected in the last few decades want to grow government. They're fake. Under conservatives and liberals alike the damn monster just gets bigger and hungrier. Bush Junior grew the damn government like never before. He was a disaster and the one that followed him has continued driving the car over the cliff with the pedal to the metal. And they wonder why Trump is leading.

  3. Your laws ignore my rights by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I consider it well inside my rights to ignore your laws.

    In less martial words, issuing laws that contravene the consensus of the population is dangerous. Laws are upheld mostly because people consider them good, not because they are being enforce. Look around you and ponder which laws are upheld (in general) and which one are flauntingly broken. Do you see people go on murdering sprees, bank robberies or even do some minor shit like pushing grannies out of the way? No. Why? Not because they're forbidden, but because they go against the "general moral consensus", for a lack of a better term. People in general consider this "wrong". Yes, they are also illegal, but that doesn't matter too much.

    On the other hand, people of all times have broken laws without remorse if those laws were considered unjust. From speeding to copyright to drugs, all covered by laws with fines and punishment that are in no remotely sensibly proportion to the crime involved, laws being ignored and broken routinely by people you would otherwise consider upstanding, moral and law abiding.

    The actual danger here is in the view people get on laws in general.

    If you need an example for this, look no further than the former Communist Bloc. People in there quickly noticed that the laws are not there to protect them from "bad people", but to protect the state against them. Which in turn led to a corruption without parallel, because the average citizen's attitude was "why bother giving a shit about the state if it doesn't give one about me?".

    And we can have that too. If we insist in installing more and more laws that work against our population. People already don't ask what "they can do for their country" anymore. Oppression and trying to enforce even more ridiculously anti-population laws will only increase resistance to them, to the point where people will actually resent and oppose the state as much as people in the former East Bloc did resent and oppose their state.

    Ok, we cannot flee to a west. There is none.

    But there's always necks to be severed.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Your laws ignore my rights by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course, we theoretically have the option to complain to our elected representatives or vote them out of office, something not possible in the former Soviet Bloc. The snag is that most people don't bother doing this, and most probably never even heard of this issue. Those that do care about the issue may be saying "meh, I'll just pirate things like I always do" which is no help at all.

    2. Re:Your laws ignore my rights by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How cute. You actually think you have political power.

      I'm sure the megacorps and .1 percenters are quaking in their boots at your impotent threat.

    3. Re:Your laws ignore my rights by sumdumass · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I've watched 3 different people in different settings go off about this to others. They have half the facts and half the fallacy along with all the hyperbole.

      The problem is a communications problem. It gets so technical that most people gloss over and ignore it until something strike their ears but then they only catch half. Most people are like the GP and when they attempt to communicate about it, they end up looking like a loon freshly dipped in dingbat shit and people ignore them again.

      What is needed is a cartoonish but reasonably well articulated summery of the situation and most people would grab their pitchforks and join the mob. I don't see that happening. Probably because they have been invested so long that it in and of itself seems engagingly ridiculous.

    4. Re:Your laws ignore my rights by swm · · Score: 5, Informative

      Economix explains the Trans-Pacific Partnership
      http://economixcomix.com/home/...

    5. Re:Your laws ignore my rights by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 2

      I consider it well inside my rights to ignore your laws.

      That's a great theory, until your home is raided by FBI and IRS agents, whose guns are harder to ignore.

    6. Re:Your laws ignore my rights by s.petry · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You don't see it happening because very few people know about it. Do you think that the lack of media coverage is accidental? Oh I know, Ben Carson the Republican candidate said something loony about having to attack a gunman on a spree just to kill, so that has to take all 7 "News" stations days to investigate and discuss. TPPIP? Not a word could be heard on any of those stations about that one. Amazingly, the candidates are not discussing it or being quoted on that one either.

      Oh but Donal Trump this and that, and of course everyone is just mean to Hillary because in all the time she served as Secretary of State she never ever sent or received even 1 classified email.

      The game is rigged pretty heavily today. People would probably shit themselves if they really know how much they are being manipulated. But hell, Facebook does not show anything too important in their feeds, and Facebook taking over control of that was accidental too.

      That rant is not really directed at you. It is directed at those who are now wearing that same tin-foil hat they accused others of wearing. I hope it fits them well.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    7. Re:Your laws ignore my rights by sumdumass · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You don't see it happening because very few people know about it. Do you think that the lack of media coverage is accidental? Oh I know, Ben Carson the Republican candidate said something loony about having to attack a gunman on a spree just to kill, so that has to take all 7 "News" stations days to investigate and discuss. TPPIP? Not a word could be heard on any of those stations about that one. Amazingly, the candidates are not discussing it or being quoted on that one either.

      First, Carson's comment is about as loony as calling the police and expecting them to save you. What he said was if you are about to die, try to save others. It's no different than after 9/11 when public discussion went from advising people to stay calm and follow orders/cooperate when an airplane is hijacked to assume you will be dead so take risks and save others. If you cannot understand that, you might have a serious problem.

      Next, there is no or little media coverage because until recently there was nothing to cover outside of speculation. It's all been drafts leaked to the public via questionable sources and as we found out, a lot is different. I suspect we will end up continuing with little coverage because the IP provisions benefit the news corporations greatly.

      Oh but Donal Trump this and that, and of course everyone is just mean to Hillary because in all the time she served as Secretary of State she never ever sent or received even 1 classified email.

      That is an outright lie.
      http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09...

      http://www.washingtontimes.com...

      The game is rigged pretty heavily today. People would probably shit themselves if they really know how much they are being manipulated. But hell, Facebook does not show anything too important in their feeds, and Facebook taking over control of that was accidental too.

      Yup and you demonstrated my point with your political half assery too. Whenever someone talks about this subject, they have half the facts and half the fallacy along with all the hyperbole.

      That rant is not really directed at you. It is directed at those who are now wearing that same tin-foil hat they accused others of wearing. I hope it fits them well.

      This happens more often than most of us are willing to realize. Early warnings of lost jobs came about with NAFTA, Crazies like Glenn Beck was warning of ISIS and the Caliphate long before it was mainstream. Hell, even the horrors of Nazi Germany were foretold before the world was shocked at what we found at the end of WWII. Escaped Jews were trying to get the US involved long before Pearl Harbor pushed us over the edge. I guess for some, they just have to reach out and touch the hot stove in order to understand what your warning about the stove being hot really means.

    8. Re:Your laws ignore my rights by 0123456 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      or vote them out of office

      Uh, no.

      You can't 'vote them out of office'. You can only vote to replace them with another asshole who's just as corrupt.

      If we could 'vote them out of office', this problem would have gone away long ago, as most political offices would be empty.

    9. Re:Your laws ignore my rights by Babel-17 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I just want to thank you for sharing that link. I've since passed it on to another site where it's gotten dozens of views. After a decade or more of anonymously browsing this site I had /. send me a link so I could log in again, so I can say "Thanks!".

    10. Re:Your laws ignore my rights by tsa · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not in the US, where corruption is so widespread in its political system that good politicians who care for the people never get a chance in hell to gather enough money to buy themselves a seat or a presidency.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    11. Re:Your laws ignore my rights by s.petry · · Score: 2

      First, Carson's comment is about as loony as calling the police and expecting them to save you.

      No need to defend Carson to me, I fully understand context and how it's being ignored for the "story". Read those comments again as snark.

      Next, there is no or little media coverage because until recently there was nothing to cover outside of speculation. It's all been drafts leaked to the public via questionable sources and as we found out, a lot is different. I suspect we will end up continuing with little coverage because the IP provisions benefit the news corporations greatly.

      You may be arguing with me (hard to tell), but are demonstrating the point I made. I have seen more information and investigation by Wikileaks, RT, and the Guardian than any of the 7 top "news" stations in the US. Just the rumors should have been enough to put real journalists in action. And no, it's not about ratings because imagine the ratings one station would be receiving if they had bothered to cover the story.

      That is an outright lie.

      I don't believe you understand cynicism and sarcasm. Go back and read it again with that in mind. You did the same thing with Carson, pretending that I attacked him. Half of your statement seems to agree, but then you argue about points that really were never made. I believe we are on the same page, you just didn't realize it.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    12. Re:Your laws ignore my rights by ArylAkamov · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Hah, don't worry, the sarcasm was plain as day.

      It is directed at those who are now wearing that same tin-foil hat they accused others of wearing. I hope it fits them well.

      This is what really gets to me. If you try to mention any of this to the average person, they will scream tinfoil hat all day long. Even if you show them undeniable proof of some wrongdoing, the same person will act like they knew it all along and you're an idiot for thinking it to be news.

      Great example was Snowden.

      Me: Don't say anything stupid or incriminate yourself online, everything is recorded by the NSA
      Mr. X: Stop being so paranoid, there's no way they could possibly do that. Take off your tinfoil hat.

      Me: See? I told you they've been doing this without our knowledge
      Mr. X: Of course they have, what's so surprising about it? Stop acting like this is anything new, anyone with a brain already knew this

      There is no winning with them.

    13. Re:Your laws ignore my rights by SuricouRaven · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes. You have the choice of the Corporate Slave R or Corporate Slave D.

      Sometimes you have an I on the ballot too, but politics is an expensive game - once you get past the local level a good campaign costs millions of dollars, so success is impossible without some rich sponsors in industry.

    14. Re: Your laws ignore my rights by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Considering that they were the 0.1% of their day, they'll probably be all right with it. If you look at the history, you'll notice that their main beef was with taxes. And taxes are usually only something people who have lots will be riled up over enough to start a revolution. Poor people start revolutions over things like food.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    15. Re:Your laws ignore my rights by fnj · · Score: 4, Informative

      I don't believe you understand cynicism and sarcasm.

      No offense, but maybe if you get pounded on the head enough you will understand that cynicism and sarcasm is very, very hard to pull off effectively in person with tonal and visual cues, and all but impossible on the printed page. My most friendly advice is to avoid trying it. It doesn't work.

    16. Re:Your laws ignore my rights by s.petry · · Score: 2

      Your assertion requires ignoring a blatant fact. If even one station had a different viewpoint, it would gain _all_ of the people who didn't agree with the status quot. It's kind of like the people that claim politicians are just stupid. If that was true, there would be occasion where something positive happened instead of a constant and steady stream of "bad luck".

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  4. vote it down by bzipitidoo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This treaty is an outright declaration of class warfare, with lots of surveillance goodies thrown in to get the enforcement part of government on board.

    The thing to do now in the US is simply vote it down. If it is fast tracked so that Congress can only vote yes or no, then "no" it is. Just in case there's a chance of passage, we should make a lot of noise, make sure our representatives know our will and that it won't be safe to ignore us.

    --
    Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
  5. Re:two words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    No, there was no colon or other punctuation in the subject line, and the GP clearly wrote "were" not "we're". Thus the GP's message reads "two words were fucked". How this occurred is left as an exercise for the reader.

  6. Re:Who are these people? by caseih · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Robert Reich is certainly right on about the demise of capitalism. Corporations stack the deck so much in their favor that capitalism as we used to have it, as it used to benefit average people, and lift them out of poverty, is pretty much dead. Any attempts to reform the system cause them to scream "socialist wealth redistribution."

    I used to think those that picketed at G7 meetings against globalization were luddites. Now I completely understand. Globalization is more and more just bullying on a national scale.

    Hopefully in Canada we can get the Conservatives out, though I'm not hopeful. Harper wants Canada to be just like the US in all the bad ways. However a conservative minority government is probably the worst case scenario up here--Harper would be absolutely dictatorial in such a government knowing that the electorate are going to punish anyone who brings the government down and brings on another round of elections. Both opposition parties say they won't even bother reading the TPP in the house (which is honestly a lie, but at least they say they oppose it). I dunno. Plus Trudeau is being an idiot refusing to even talk about a coalition with the NDP. But I digress.

  7. Did you expect anything logical? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What got passed is what the deep pockets paid for. It's called extortion.

  8. How? by rsilvergun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't know about you, but 90% of the things I buy to live (Food, Toiletries, shelter) are owned and made by 13 companies. Unless you can afford really expensive boutique goods how the hell do you boycott? And if you can afford that TPP is good for you...

    Better yet, tell me how to get the churches and their blue collar workers back on track with socialism? How do I remove abortion as a wedge issue? I'm singling that one out since the left dropped guns and the right seems to be losing homosexuality and racism (and the welfare queens) as their wedge issues. It's the last major one I know of that divides our working class. Tell me how the hell to fix our politics...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:How? by Tom · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I don't know about you, but 90% of the things I buy to live (Food, Toiletries, shelter) are owned and made by 13 companies. Unless you can afford really expensive boutique goods how the hell do you boycott? And if you can afford that TPP is good for you...

      For food, you can go to local markets and buy it directly from farmers. At least here in Europe you can.

      There are also local products in many categories, but they are often more expensive and sometimes only available in select shops (look for eco shops and sustainable products, that's a first pointer). But again, in this area there is so much scamming from big companies that you have to do research to be sure.

      And that's the problem. We don't want to do that. We don't give enough of a fuck about the stuff we eat or use to care where it actually comes from.

      Tell me how the hell to fix our politics...

      Give back your nerd card. Robert Heinlein wrote a little book in fucking 1946 about this very problem, and little has changed since then:

      https://www.goodreads.com/book...

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    2. Re:How? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      "For food, you can go to local markets and buy it directly from farmers."

      Depends on country. Simple economy of scale means small farms are in a slow process of decline - the farmer with a few traditional chicken enclosures cannot hope to compete with the farm that has ten massive industrial barns and chickens in the millions. Large farms have no interest in selling a tiny fraction of their output direct to consumers - they are not in the retail business.

  9. Role for Jury Nullification by trout007 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is why Jury Nullification is so important. Of course that's why many of these laws will be enforced without a trial.

    --
    I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    1. Re:Role for Jury Nullification by SuricouRaven · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Jury nullification allows for the views of a community to override the letter of the law. This can be a good or bad thing, depending on the community.

    2. Re:Role for Jury Nullification by fnj · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is only a good thing. It cannot be a bad thing. You cannot convict anyone by jury nullification; only free someone. Better ten guilty men go free than one innocent man hang.

    3. Re:Role for Jury Nullification by SuricouRaven · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A good part of jury nullification's bad reputation comes from the south during and for a time after the segregation era, which it was used on numerous occasions to let a white murderer go free after killing a black person. With jury nullification, community standards win - even if the community happens to be packed with racists who believe the black victim deserved it for having ideas above his station.

  10. Re:Who are these people? by i_ate_god · · Score: 2

    > the electorate are going to punish anyone who brings the government down and brings on another round of elections

    Considering that only 1/3rd of Canadians want Harper, I'm not sure there would be "punishment". Also, I suspect that our current Governor General will not be so feeble and kowtow to Harper's prorogue or dissolution requests if the NDP and Liberals go the coalition route.

    And despite Harper having scared Canadians the last time a coalition was tried, I think the desperation of so many Canadians to see Harper go will force them to settle all their centrist vs left wing differences and be much more open minded to an NDP/Lib coalition. At least... I hope. Our system would work far better if we can accept coalition governments. Heck, if we were really open to coalition governments, maybe we would still have the Reform party.

    --
    I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
  11. Double-edged sword? by Krishnoid · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Since this weakens the public domain and strengthens rights for rightsholders, does it comparably strengthen the case for copyleft? How/would this change FOSS promotion and/or adoption strategies?

  12. Yes, but you must face a brutal fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Obama and his people in the Commerce and State departments (which he, as President, appointed and controls) are the ones who have (A) Negotiated this deal, (B) classified it to prevent the public from reading it, and (C) demanded the TPA bill earlier this year to put it on a fast-track to fly through congress without proper Constitutional scrutiny.

    Sadly, "establishment" Republicans in congress (bribed by the same firms that funded Obama's rise to power) ignored their base voters and let him have TPA, and will do everything they can to pass TPP...... but There would BE no TPA or TPP without team Obama writing them and demanding them!

    This is broadly about multinational corporations (and their billionaire owners and investors) freeing themselves of national boundaries and rules - but at the core of it are the multinational entertainment companies and their lobbying groups like the MPAA which are every bit as much of the core of the modern Democrat party as trial lawyers, government employee unions, and gay marriage advocates - separating this from Obama would be like separating George W Bush from the NRA, social conservatives, or defense contractors, etc.

  13. Well, the good news is by Kevin+Fishburne · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I can and will circumvent any technological or legal obstacles they can dream of, and they can all go fuck themselves. At some point they're going to run out of dimwits who don't know how to use encryption, VPN, tor, i2p, freenet, bittorrent, etc., and their entire consumer base will have collapsed with a mighty "ARRR!!!" How's that for an end game, you short-sighted, unimaginative, greedy bitches?

    --
    Buy your next Linux PC at eightvirtues.com
  14. TPP Packs by CanEHdian · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I strongly suggest that, in countries that will see their public domains turned back 20 years, electronic distributors of public domain works create a special "TPP Pack" -- a collection of works that are currently in the public domain, but will revert back to copyrighted status. This will give everyone enough time to download these packs before the TPP is ratified.

    And I'm not getting any financial compensation for the fact that works I purchased, with the understanding that they would become public domain within the next two decades, will now not become so, and I'm sure that are those who are seniors and perhaps will never see those works enter the public domain during their remaining lifetime. Speaking of which, once those Generation Typewriter are removed from the voting constituents, perhaps Digital Issues will become more important and we will finally see copyright term reductions. Of course, retroactively, and without compensation as well.

    PS why wasn't this included in the Canadian Government's "TPP summary"?

    --
    When the copyright term is "forever minus a day", live every day like it's the last.
  15. To me, the U.S. government seems corrupt. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 5, Informative

    "90% of the things I buy to live (Food, Toiletries, shelter) are owned and made by 13 companies."

    It seems that the U.S. government now only helps rich people become richer. There is no democracy.

    Companies That Control the World's Food (That is the 2nd page of the article.)

    Food Processing's top 100

  16. Re:Blame It On by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

    John F. Kennedy; his Hollywood pimp, Peter Lawford; and Jack Mankiewicz, who left JFK's cabinet to become head of the MPAA. That's just history.

    I seem to recall a president back in the '80s that had some ties to Hollywood, too. A union organizer and former actor, if memory serves. Wife a former showgirl.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  17. The Economist on TPP and patents by Beeftopia · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The Economist is a very pro-business magazine. Here's what they said about patents and the TPP:

    "The cost of the innovation that never takes place because of the flawed patent system is incalculable. Patent protection is spreading, through deals such as the planned Trans-Pacific Partnership, which promises to cover one-third of world trade. The aim should be to fix the system, not make it more pervasive."

    -- The Economist, "Time to fix patents", 8 August 2015

    1. Re:The Economist on TPP and patents by 0123456 · · Score: 2

      The only people surprised by this are the useful idiots who actually believe--get this--that patents encourage innovation.

      I mean, I know it's hard to believe anyone would fall for that crap, but some really do. We even get some posting around here now and again.

    2. Re:The Economist on TPP and patents by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      Patents can actually serve their purpose. Most of the pharmaceutical industry is built around patents - companies spend vast amounts of money on research to get them. They are evil greedy mega-corps, of course, but that doesn't matter: Their drugs still keep people alive regardless of the motivation for their creation.

      Part of the reason patents do more good than harm is their duration - it's long enough to be beneficial, but not so long that the costs outweigh the benefits. Copyright, on the other hand, has an utterly ridiculous duration.

      The biggest problem with patents comes from a poor approvals process - the patent office is basically stamp that lacks the time or resources to actually validate anything, and so relies on the courts to invalidate patents that should never have been improved in the first place. This has lead to a situation, especially in the technology industry, where companies have an incentive to amass as many patents as possible even for the most ridiculously simple of things (rounded corners, slide-to-unlock) in order to use them as a big hammer to smash competitors with legal costs.

    3. Re:The Economist on TPP and patents by delt0r · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Having worked for big pharma, that is more than enough proof that patents should be abolished. Oh but it cost so much to get a drug to market you say. They don't pay for that, government grants and university "collaborations" do. But who will make our drugs? Well for a start we may actually get drugs that are useful and help, and will even be given only to patients that need them. Secondly we will get rid of the "Shut up and take our fucking pills" pharma medicine. It is like homeopathy. Only with real side effects.

      http://dilbert.com/strip/2009-...

      Burning all the big pharma to the ground would increase the health of the general public.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    4. Re:The Economist on TPP and patents by fnj · · Score: 2

      Patents can actually serve their purpose. Most of the pharmaceutical industry is built around patents - companies spend vast amounts of money on research to get them. They are evil greedy mega-corps, of course, but that doesn't matter: Their drugs still keep people alive regardless of the motivation for their creation.

      But at what cost? To the unfortunate individual, and to society?

      I won't buy that, forgive me, pablum. The capitalist system with patents does indeed get the development money spent - but then it allows somebody to make a selfish profit off people's misfortunes. The most profitable opportunities are pursued, not the most crying needs. It's only an accident if they coincide. An authority could be set up to do the research with only the reward of fair and normal salary, not a reward of striking it rich. Money would not be funneled to the 1%.

  18. Re:Obummer lied. Millions died. by 0123456 · · Score: 2

    In fact, they didn't learn a fucking thing. That was obvious when they elected him to a second term.

    Yeah, right. You really think Romney would have been a better choice?

    Democracy means nothing when you're only given the choice between arsenic and cyanide.

  19. Re:Ha by FunkSoulBrother · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Man-Man sex and Abortion (and meaningful gun control) are all settled issues barring a constitutional amendment, so I urge anyone not to vote on the basis of these issues, because they aren't changing anytime soon.

    I'm a pretty typical American liberal in the sense that I am pro-choice, pro marriage equality, and fuck if I wouldn't like to round up all the guns and throw them in the sewer. But it's not going to happen, so I would happily vote for someone who opposed all of these things if they were in favor of single payer healthcare or fucking over this Treaty, or something else achievable that I'd like to see fixed.

  20. Re:Who are these people? by Mashiki · · Score: 2

    Well only 1/3 of Canadians want Trudeau or Mulcair as well. I know it makes a really nice fake talking point and all that but be honest when you're trying to spew political agendas.

    --
    Om, nomnomnom...
  21. Trump hates this and this will kill jobs and worke by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    Trump hates this and this will kill jobs and workers rights.

    The new min wage can now be say chinas minimum wage

  22. Re:Ha by 0123456 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you're mad at Obama, you must try to open your eyes. I'm 100% opposed to Republican views (1) and yet I don't think Obama acts too far from what a Republican would do.

    That's because both parties are full of power-crazed psychopaths. The only difference is which lies they tell.

  23. You still sleep. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    You encourage others to become aware of how they are played by their corrupt leaders. I encourage you to study your history, and see the big picture.

    Our situation was not caused by a recent bad crop of politicians. Our situation is part of a cycle that has been repeating since the dawn of recorded history. I see no reason to expect that it should change now.

    In fact, the only thing that has changed is technology level. Likely, that is the only thing that will change in the foreseeable future. If there is any hope of breaking the familiar human cycle of governance, the game-changer will be in our technology. But enough speculation...

    Wealth and power corrupt, by their nature. And they are sought most vigorously by the already-corrupt. The net effect is that all world leaders seek primarily to serve themselves, and secondarily to serve their contemporaries (other aristocrats). They only serve the masses inasmuch as they must in order to further their own agendas. Throw them all out, and whoever you replace them with will be just the same. If they are not just the same, they will either become so, or will be politically outmaneuvered by someone who is just the same, with an obvious net effect.

    You can't change this by shouting "wake up" at ordinary people. Nor can you change this by political action. You can't change this, period. The only thing you can do is apply political force, to ensure that your own agenda is in their best interest. This is done by funding lobbies, and organizing grassroots movements to encourage the poor to vote as a group on the issue. Apart from becoming an aristocrat yourself (no easy task, since they are not at all keen on sharing power), these are the only means available to you.

    Beyond that, all you can do is recognize your place in the cycle, and adapt to it. Failing to do so will just create friction for yourself and others.

  24. Re:Blame It On by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It has been continuous since JFK; it also existed in a press (and newsreel) agreement during FDR's term to keep his medical condition secret from the American people; an agreement to support the war against our enemies during WWII and, during Eisenhower's administration, to be anti-Communist.

    Johnson lost the press and Hollywood, Nixon did not strengthen ties with them, Ford and Carter were cyphers with regard to the larger culture, and, you are right that Reagan reestablished ties which went back to Mankiewicz. The Bushes tried to ignore Hollywood; Clinton reeastablished ties; the younger Bush courted them without success, but Obama seems to have been made for Hollywood's surface glitz, leading to TIPP. Trump, of course, would be a master of neo-Kennedyism.

  25. Re:Ha by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm a pretty typical American liberal in the sense that I am pro-choice, pro marriage equality,

    Same here, but I'm also a gun owner (and have been for almost 40 years).

    I'd bet I'm way more liberal than most people here (including you, probably) but I'm not a single-issue voter like a lot of people.

    I vote for whomever I think will do the best job for the country even if it goes against my personal self interests. This time it'll probably be Bernie Sanders regardless of what the media says or how much they smear him.

    Do I agree with everything he says? Of course not, but IMHO he's far better than any of the Republicans and far better than Hillary or Biden or whoever the Democrats dig up next.

    I've never found an apt description for my political flavor, I suppose it'd be something like a "slightly-conservative-liberal" or "almost-social-democrat" or something like that. I sure as shit don't fit into any of the neat little categories they try to make us all fall into.

    --
    Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
  26. Take advantage of it; copyleft by bug1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Copyleft uses the power of copyright to subvert its common intent.

    By giving copyright holders more powers, maybe we can now do more savage things to corporate violators, like send them jail.

    Perhaps we need an anti-TPP software licence to take advange of this new power.

    The harder they squeeze....

    1. Re:Take advantage of it; copyleft by sconeu · · Score: 2

      Aren't they cute when they're naive?

      Laws are to be used by the $BIGCORPS against ordinary people, not the other way around.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
  27. I'm not so sure by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    The US Gov't still does a lot of things to help the poor. Studies show that anti-poverty programs work. The Sentiments your expressing are just playing into the hands of the 1%ers who want to cut those programs without touching their own. Gov't is a dangerous tool like fire and guns. You regulated it and control it, but you don't just cast it aside.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  28. Re:Who are these people? by Tom · · Score: 5, Insightful

    capitalism as we used to have it, as it used to benefit average people, and lift them out of poverty, is pretty much dead.

    What makes you assume this was ever the purpose and not just a side-effect?

    It is very, very visible here in Germany. In fact, it's so transparent that you would have to be completely blind to not notice it.

    Germany had very strong social systems and a good distribution of wealth. There were poor and rich, but very few very poor and very few crazy rich. Normal people could afford a house and a car on one salary from a regular job. Unemployment money was high enough that you wouldn't lose your home and pensions were so that retiring didn't mean becoming poor. Universal health care? We've had that always and it was adequate. Doctors were so good we exported them to other countries. Basically, a lot of people could actually afford those Mercedes and BMW cars we make.

    After the fall of communism that all changed. Politics intentionally created a new low-cost labour market. Unemployment benefits dropped, lots of social benefits were dismantled, and when you are of working age, you are being bombarded with advertisement telling you to buy into this or that investment scheme because your pension will not allow you a good life anymore. All of that happened in less than 20 years. It started almost exactly after the re-unification, which provided a nice excuse for some measures ("it's so expensive, we need to save money").

    What you learn from that is that all of this has been a front. The reason capitalism in Germany allowed for a good life was not inherent to capitalism. It was added benefits that were included because West Germany was too close to communist East Germany and the western allies needed to make sure the west german people would not look to East Germany and see something better, but the other way around (which, btw., worked).
    Once the threat of people actually desiring communism disappeared, the facade came down. Now we see what capitalism is really about, has always been about. It just stopped pretending.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  29. Re:Ha by faraway · · Score: 3, Informative

    Thank God Americans live in a Democratically elected Republic.  We don't have to move elsewhere to return to the prosperity of the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s before we reduced our top marginal tax rate from 90% to 35% and indebted our future generations and destroyed the ability of our middle class to educate itself and collectively bargain for a piece of the pie from their corporate en-slavers.  And like we did in the 1930s and 1940s, we can use our right to vote to do it again.

    And maybe your family can rise out of poverty too and get educated and contribute again.

    It's amazing how much money the liberal states provide the to republican "pull yourself up by your boot straps" welfare states.

    http://visualeconomics.creditloan.com/united-states-federal-tax-dollars/
    ---

    Democratic liberal states make money.
    Unlike dollars allotted, tax dollars received show where the money was actually spent. New Jersey receives 61 cents for each tax dollar paid, Nevada 65 cents, Connecticut 69, New Hampshire 7 cents, and Minnesota 72 . Illinois receives 0.75 for each tax dollar they pays, followed by Delaware  At 77 cents and  California at 78 cents per dollar paid.
    --
    Republican welfare states mooch and live off of it.
    The states receiving the most are number five Alabama, which  receives 1.66 per tax dollar paid, number four North Dakota with1.68, West Virginia at 1.76 , Louisiana,1.78, Alaska, 1.84 , Mississippi 2.02  and New Mexico at 2.03, over 100% of every taxdollar paid.
    ---

    The cognitive dissonance of these moochers is amazing.  Against welfare, yet living off of it.  But I don't mind, I'm a city dweller and and taxed adequately, but I also understand that getting ahead is not just an individual act, but a collective one as well.  You people want individual freedom unless it is the decision to choose who you want to marry or what medical procedures you can have.  Then freedom is a bad thing.  The cognitive dissonance amazes me.

    I enjoy the nice roads, clean environment, business friendly and responsive government.  I will gladly pay more to ensure everyone gets a chance at the American dream through hard work and education.

  30. Re:Ha by faraway · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm voting Sanders.  He's had 30 years of consistent messaging.  Finally a third party in the white house.  Checks and balances could be restored between the two branches again.

    The Corporatists in Congress with their < 15% approval rating will have to actually negotiate with a non-Corporatist for once.

    I'm excited at that possibility.

  31. I found my own way to protest. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

    https://birds-are-nice.me/musi...

    I show how the concept of the public domain has been crushed by demonstrating just how little popular music exists in it.

    I'd call this shameless self-promotion, but I make about £0.03 a month in advertising off that. Factor in that everyone uses ad-blocking here and I might make £0.06 this month if it gets slashdotted. No, I just want to flood the internet with public-domain music in open-standard format.

  32. Re:Who are these people? by faraway · · Score: 2

    Sanders has had a consistent message for over 30 years. I will vote for him. His beliefs are line with mine:

    * He voted against the Iraq war.
    * He voted against the patriot act.
    * He spoke out against warrant less wiretapping.
    * He's spoken against H-1B cheap labor. This important because Americans are being replaced by people from certain countries simply because they are much cheaper labor. Doctors and lawyers have unions to protect them from cheap labor. Why shouldn't the rest of the middle class have them? I would be in favor of H-1B visas if 1) it allowed employees free access to the job market (job mobility) and 2) they were taxed to pay for education and training in America for Americans. Remember, they say the only reason we have to import H-1B people is because we have a shortage in skilled labor. If that is true, then it makes sense to allow business the ability to bring in skilled labor, yet invest in our future instead of the future of people, some of which end up returning the knowledge and insight they gain in our society back to their home country. I love the US.
    * He's against free trade agreements that ship American factory jobs to countries with cheaper labor. This is important because when they move from country A to cheaper country B, you still pay the same amount for that $9.99 t-shirt, instead they pocket the profit and invest it in buying more government influence to further enslave you.
    * He wants to bring education costs back to where they were before (virtually free) by restoring higher marginal taxes (though he has not proposed restoring them to the >90% level they were at before). This will restore the ability of the lower and middle classes to educate themselves and increase our collective competitiveness. It will also educate the electorate again. I'm for reducing the barriers to social mobility. The Nordic European countries have a much higher social mobility rating than the US - meaning if you are born lower or middle class you have a higher chance of making more than your parents did. Fact.
    * He wants to reduce our health care costs and remove our pro-profit health care slavery. Our health care system is ranked 38th in the world, yet spends 2x for a worse patient outcome. To have the chance at an American dream, your health should not be at gating factor and at the whim of a patron. This is slavery.
    * He wants to increase parental leave vacation and family rights. He is pro-family. Starting and having a family does not mean you lose your livelihood. This is slavery.
    * He wants to break up big banks and restore regulation to prevent them from speculating and causing the need to socialize their losses again. In 2008 these "high rollers" nearly destroyed the American and global economy - their house of cards crumpled because we let them be unregulated, and we as citizens had to pay for it. They get their privilege to function from us, we provide them with limited liability and fictitious person-hood. Our society should reap the benefits of it. Not a few moochers at the top. Too big to fail my ass.
    * He wants to protect worker's rights to collective bargaining. We had to fight dearly for them. They gave us what was the 40 hour week. I wonder if the decline in our collective social happiness is due to the decline in unionization, and increase in worker abuse. Police, lawyers, doctors, and in some places, teachers still have and love their unions. It's a concept we should protect.
    * He is for net neutrality. This is important. Net neutrality was guaranteed before because if one independent company tried to degrade network QoS, you could easily move to another provider. From the 20-30 competing Internet providers of the 1990s to now virtually just one or two in most markets: Comcast and AT&T in the Bay Area. Because there are only two of them

  33. Re:There's no interface for resistance by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

    There's one point of resistance: For all the provisions of TTP, the impact on illegal downloading isn't going to be great. Protest by getting those illegal files and sharing them even more, and by teaching others to do the same. Fill USB sticks and leave them in public places. Paste magnet links to good torrents on public boards.

  34. I agree. Both are happening. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 2

    I agree. Both are happening. The corruption and the correct management.

  35. Re: Check the priorities... by cyber-vandal · · Score: 2

    Free as in without inconvenient restrictions like treating your workers like humans.

  36. The whole TPP is terrible for any country not US by Spinalcold · · Score: 2

    And Japan. It's not just IP to worry about, it's a whole host of things. Under NAFTA Canada became the most sued country and most of those were to remove our environmental protections. At least we're in an election right now and if we can get the Conservatives out we have at least a HOPE of at least renegotiating it. Then again, a guy I work with just voted (advanced voting) and somehow accidentally checked the wrong box...sometimes I want to give up...

  37. Re:Trump hates this and this will kill jobs and wo by umghhh · · Score: 2

    I do not want to spoil the fun here but China is not party to TTP.

  38. Re:Ha by thegarbz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    but I'm not a single-issue voter like a lot of people.

    But the country's problems ARE single issue, namely that the government at high levels place the desires of corporations above the rights of the people. In fact the government places pretty much everything above the rights of the people. The problem is that this is not a partisan issue, it's not even an isolated American issue.

  39. Re:Who are these people? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    socialist wealth redistribution

    Often they just say 'wealth redistribution', which is the phrase that annoys me more than any other in political discussions. The people who say it are always implicitly in favour of wealth redistribution in one direction and often opposed to things that slow it, not just things that might reverse it. If I have $1m, and I invest it at a return 1% above the rate of inflation (not so hard when you have $1m), then I make $10K/year just from having money. If I have $10m and I make the same investments, then I'm making $100K/year, which is more than most people who work for a living, again just from starting with capital.

    The average net worth of US senators in 2011 (I couldn't find newer figures) was $14m, for senators it was $7m (before anyone jumps in with partisan claims, the average for Republicans was higher in the Senate, but lower in the House). These people are earning more from their investments than most of their constituents. They're all - on both sides of the aisle - very much in favour of wealth redistribution, as long as that wealth keeps flowing to them.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  40. Re:This will never wash in any democratic country by StillAnonymous · · Score: 2

    When it comes time for politicians in each country to decide whether to sign or not, then you'll find out which countries really are democratic and which ones have fallen to complete corporate capture.

    This shit is referendum material right off the bat considering its implications. If you don't get that opportunity, it's a sinister foreboding of what's to come.

  41. Re:Ha by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'm voting Sanders. He's had 30 years of consistent messaging. Finally a third party in the white house.

    Same here, and his record of consistency is one of the reasons. He voted against the war AND against the PATRIOT act.

    -

    I'm excited at that possibility.

    Me too...can't wait for it to happen.

    --
    Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
  42. Re:Ha by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And your solution to that is to vote for someone who wants to give the government even more power to screw over the people?

    Except that all the other candidates ON BOTH SIDES want this exact same thing.

    Anyone who thinks they don't simply hasn't been paying attention.

    --
    Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
  43. Re:Ha by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Finally, "vote for Sanders, he is no worse than the other guys" is hardly a good proposition.

    That's not what I said, and not what I meant.

    Frankly I like Sanders' policies (not all of them) and see him as a hell of a lot better than the other candidates on both sides.
    There are over a million people who've donated to Bernie Sanders, and he isn't taking money from any SuperPACs. Like it or not, you have to respect that so many people like what he's saying enough to send him money.

    Hillary Clinton is a fascist and a war monger. She voted for the war AND for the PATRIOT act. Sanders voted against both of them. That counts for something with me.

    Clinton is a serial liar and a crook, and if she didn't brand herself a "Democrat", you'd swear she was a Republican.

    As for the Republicans, the entire Republican field is nothing but an disorganized array of theocratic, right-wing whackos who are begging to suck the dick of every corporate entity from Boston to Barstow, and they aren't even shy about it.

    They all want to impose their version of Christian sharia on the country, and many of them talk endlessly about how god "guides their decisions", etc etc etc. Santorum would turn this country back 1,000 years. Huckabee would put every non-believer to the sword of he could, and the rest aren't that much better. Is that what you want?

    Don't like Sanders? Then don't vote for him. Spend your vote on whoever you like. I'll be voting for Bernie if I get the chance.

    --
    Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
  44. Re:Ha by Chris+Johnson · · Score: 2

    You mean Sanders' policies like government intervention in the market, health care, retirement, publishing and education for the purpose of ensuring fairness, ensuring that labor gets compensated fairly, that people don't just get wealthier because they have money, that media don't smear politicians and don't lie about established science?

    Those so-called "policies" sound good to you because you fail to understand that they are empty promises, and that they inevitably lead to economic disaster and worse. I'm afraid Sanders is the fascist, and like all fascists, he rises to power on a program of right wing populism.

    Why yes, those policies. Most notably, government intervention in the market. At this point, I think it's empirically proven that free markets are a complete disaster in practice and lead to economic disaster and worse. I think Enron is a great poster child for deregulation, and if you don't like that example wait five minutes. As for Sanders being right wing populism, I wonder if you're suffering from wing dyslexia?

    People have a tendency to go, NOOOO you can't intervene in the sacred free market, it's so much more complicated, there will be disaster and badness and it's awful and you must instead remove even MORE regulations and controls and trust in the freeness of the freeing! Because it's so very complicated and you don't understand it ACtually and just shut up and let the smart people tell you how the future will be great if you just happen to do things that will profoundly tilt things to the currently rich and powerful!

    Nope, Don't trust Enron (or Uber, or Twitter) to tell you what economic disaster is. Promises are only empty when you talk yourself out of doing them. Have a listen to Nick Hanauer sometime, he might save your ass, that's a very rich person who is loudly demanding that people get a clue before society inevitably breaks out the guillotines.

    And intervening in the free market is as simple as bringing down a public shooter. Hire people, give them badges and weapons, and make it their job to identify the guy who's killing less-powerful, innocent or unrelated people and remove that guy from that situation. That's civilization. The idea that in a market, which is a human invention, we can't have civilization, is a crazy dumb idea. That's where we need civilization MOST, because it matters how it works.

  45. Re:9-11 has erased the collective memory by amiga3D · · Score: 2

    An excellent summary. It's funny how all the establishment both Democrat and Republican are hating on Trump. I don't like him but it makes me want to vote for him because as much as I dislike Trump I despise them.

  46. Re:Ha by Calavar · · Score: 2

    Okay then, let's look just at welfare data:

    States with the highest percentage of food stamps recipients:
    1. Mississippi (22%)
    2. New Mexico (21%)
    3. West Virginia (20%)

    Yup, nothing to do with welfare. /sarcasm And before you blame black people and illegal immigrants, in all of these states the majority of welfare benefits go to white people.