The World of Luxury Bomb Shelters (vice.com)

An anonymous reader writes with this Vice profile of Robert Vicino, founder and CEO of survival prep company The Vivos Group. For a prepaid $35,000 entry fee, you may take shelter in one of his luxury bomb shelters when civilization collapses. "Those who make it their business to equip themselves for a civilization-ending mega-disaster—a.k.a. 'preppers'—are sometimes stereotyped as wild-eyed tinfoil hat wearers who live outside of society, but Robert Vicino caters to survivalists whose fears are backed up by money. The San Diego businessman is gunning to be the vanguard of a multibillion-dollar industry. If we're to follow the entrepreneur's logic, the rich don't live on the same scale as ordinary people in today's society—why should that change after the end of the world?"

Comments

Scammers

[gurps_npc]

The idea that you can make it to the shelter is ridiculous. If by some chance we need one, we won't have enough notice to do more than move 50 miles. The only people that could possibly be saved by the these luxury shelters are those that work there.

Honestly, almost all of the people selling this kind of crap are scammers.

You want to really protect yourself? Get into the distribution/warehouse business - so you have a warehouse full of food, water, etc. on hand all the time. Put a shelter under/in your work place.

Re:Scammers

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

You want to really protect yourself? Get into the distribution/warehouse business - so you have a warehouse full of food, water, etc. on hand all the time. Put a shelter under/in your work place.

My plan is to find a Home Depot next to a grocery store and move in there.

Re:Scammers

[xlsior]

The idea that you can make it to the shelter is ridiculous. If by some chance we need one, we won't have enough notice to do more than move 50 miles

Even if you could make it there -- what are the odds that the on-site maintenance people are even going to let you in, rather than their own families?

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[gijoel]

"You want to really protect yourself? Get into the distribution/warehouse business - so you have a warehouse full of food, water, etc. on hand all the time. Put a shelter under/in your work place."

Except that'll be the first place the desperate, starving hordes will raid. Maybe people should focus on preventing the apocalypse, instead of secretly wishing for it.

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[cold fjord]

The idea that you can make it to the shelter is ridiculous. If by some chance we need one, we won't have enough notice to do more than move 50 miles.

50 miles is well beyond the lethal radius of overpressure of a 10 megaton warhead. Make it that far and you're well on your way to the shelter.

50 miles goes by pretty quick in a helicopter. I hear the wealthy can afford helicopters.

The only people that could possibly be saved by the these luxury shelters are those that work there.

"possibly"? Are you sure that word means what you think it means?

Do you think the "bolt from the blue" is the most likely scenario for war, let alone nuclear war? No building tensions? Wasn't that idea pooh poohed in Wargames as showing it was unlikely the Soviets were actually attacking?

Re:Scammers

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone will leak the list of the locations of the luxury shelters. Then when civilization collapses, they will all become targets of starving/desperate have-nots.

Re:Scammers

[TWX]

I have a feeling that organized crime, which already has a lot of hooks into the underlying infrastructure of society that people don't like to think about, will probably be some of the best survivors in these circumstances. First, depending on what aspect they use as their angle, they might already have the warehousing and distribution part under their control. Second, as an entity that is already accustomed to using violence in business, continuing to use violence against others that are inexperienced in using violence to further their ends (ie, those that would seek to raid a warehouse of supplies) would have the upper hand in an engagement. Raiders that forced to be violent for the first time will probably not fare as well as veteran defenders that won't hesitate or won't hesitate as much.

So, it honestly depends on the warehouse owner/manager and the individual connections that the person has.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Character flaw? They would say, look at this rich dumbass, who spent his live laying off workers while flying around in his jet and evading taxes. He doesn't deserve to be here; our friends and family do.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Character flaw? If civilization comes to an end, you can be damn sure that morals will as well. At least until a new set is devised. What sort of an idiot is going to let their family starve, or worse, because they'd be breaking a rule from the collapsed civilization?

Now if it's something like a massive earthquake or other temporary condition, you might be right.

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[arglebargle_xiv]

You want to really protect yourself? Get into the distribution/warehouse business - so you have a warehouse full of food, water, etc. on hand all the time.

Could you let us know where your warehouse full of food is located? We need to know where to go to get food when the acrapalypse comes. Don't worry, we'll ask politely, we won't open fire unless you refuse to hand over all your food.

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[cold fjord]

The idea that you can make it to the shelter is ridiculous. If by some chance we need one, we won't have enough notice to do more than move 50 miles

Even if you could make it there -- what are the odds that the on-site maintenance people are even going to let you in, rather than their own families?

What do you think the odds of those "on-site maintenance people" surviving that treachery? What of their families and friends?\\

Are you quite certain that they could get away with it?

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[swb]

I think you're mostly right about organized crime types havng some kind of advantage due to their experience with violence, But I think you underestimate the number of non-ctiminals with experience with violence.

We have at least 100,000 veterans with recent experience in a war zone, many with first-hand experience in urban combat against irregulars. Their training and experience gives them a huge advantage in terms of organization, tactics and strategy. You could expand that 100,000 number into the millions if you factor in non-combat veterans (Navy and Air Force vets, etc) who may not have specific combat experience or deep training, but have experience in military organization and general training.

The other problem with organized crime as a potential survivor is while they may be experienced with violence, their methods of organization and leadership tend to be chaotic, lacking in trust or reliability. Internal conflicts over leadership and spoils tend to be common, with members often turning on or stealing each other.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Hard times are when character counts most. What sort of an idiot doesn't make provision for their families? You? Let me guess, you plan is to try violence and theft in an emergency? Splendid! You should be removed from the gene pool fairly quickly.

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[Anonymous Coward]

You want to really protect yourself? Get into the distribution/warehouse business - so you have a warehouse full of food, water, etc. on hand all the time. Put a shelter under/in your work place.

My plan is to find a Home Depot next to a grocery store and move in there.

MY plan is to fuck your mother again and again until I am Adam and she is Eve and we restart civilization by inbreeding. Just like in the bible.

Go home Dad, you're drunk.

Re: Scammers

[BurningFeetMan]

Please tell me that this plot is a video game in the making!

Re:Scammers

[gurps_npc]

You've never met these people have you? You try that shit with the kind of person willing to do this and you will be looking down the barrel of a Gatling gun, a soviet tank, and a flame thrower. All three of these are legal to own in the places where these yahoos live.

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[SuperKendall]

what are the odds that the on-site maintenance people are even going to let you in

That's why I, as a ultra-rich shelter buyer, would insist on running-man style explosive collars for the help.

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[khallow]

For any such organization that survives the collapse of society in good working order, this is an automatic promotion to proto-government though it'll take more work to establish the traditional monopoly on rule that governments tend to enjoy.

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[ShanghaiBill]

50 miles is well beyond the lethal radius of overpressure of a 10 megaton warhead.

The 10 MT warheads were all decommissioned decades ago. A typical warhead today is about 250KT, or 40 fold less powerful. The accuracy of modern ICBMs, SLBMs, and cruise missiles has made the big warheads unnecessary. But a nuclear strike is only one possible scenario, and not the most likely. I live in California, and I keep about a years worth of rice and beans, and other basic survival goods, including a vegetable garden, a flock of chickens, and a nice assault rifle. My primary concern is a big quake. But other possibilities are a big crop disrupting volcano, a major infectious disease outbreak, an infectious blight on major crops, etc. Plenty of things could cause a disruption of the food supply.

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[cold fjord]

The 10 MT warheads were all decommissioned decades ago. A typical warhead today is about 250KT, or 40 fold less powerful.

The 10MT size is for planning purposes. Typical US warheads are smaller, but China reportedly still uses warheads in the 3-5MT range, and the Russians in the 1MT+ range. A growing number of nations fundamentally hostile to the US are obtaining nuclear arms. The threat of nuclear terrorism is likely to grow.

I think your preparations are wise, and should help in many potential circumstances. Good luck.

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[MacTO]

That was my first thought too. Just to add to it, who is to say that they would let you in even if you did have enough time to make it to the shelter? If the world has collapsed to a state where bomb shelters are necessary, chance are very high that the legal system would have far more pressing issues to deal with.

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[Squiddie]

That's not really the issue, is it? If you had the choice of attempting a takeover and possibly dying in the attempt, or simply dying, which would you pick? Not to mention the fact that the amount of workers there is probably larger than the coming guests, who won't be all arriving at the same time.

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[khallow]

What do you think the odds of those "on-site maintenance people" surviving that treachery? What of their families and friends?

Pretty good. The bunker is designed to be defensible right? They probably could hold out for years under a protracted siege.

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[cold fjord]

I rather doubt there are more maintenance staff than in-coming people. Good grief. How many people do you think it takes to keep the lights on in a warehouse?

Let me guess - you never have and never will plan for any emergency? You'll just steal from the neighbor? (killing them if you think it's necessary?)

You can't think of any other way this would work out? Where did you pick up your values from? They seem to be somewhere between defective and foul.

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[Irate Engineer]

My plan is to find a Home Depot next to a grocery store and move in there.

Good idea! I'm sure no one with guns and homicidal tendencies will think to do that!

Happy Apocalypse! Sleep well!

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[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Hey asshole, get someone to read this to you:

humor
(h)yoomr/
noun
noun: humour; noun: humor; noun: cardinal humor; plural noun: cardinal humors

        1. the quality of being amusing or comic, especially as expressed in literature or speech.
        "his tales are full of humor"
        synonyms: comedy, comical aspect, funny side, fun, amusement, funniness, hilarity, jocularity; More
        absurdity, ludicrousness, drollness;
        satire, irony, farce
        "the humor of the film"
                the ability to express humor or make other people laugh.
                "their inimitable brand of humor"

Antonyms: jackoff (see "cold fijord"), dipstick (see "cold fijord"), humorless cunt (see "cold fijord"), pompous asswipe (see "cold fijord"), curmudgeon (see "cold fijord"), nimrod (see "cold fijord"), bliss ninny, (see "cold fijord"),

Re:Scammers

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Good idea! I'm sure no one with guns and homicidal tendencies will think to do that!

I'm sure those without a sense of humor won't think of it, so that means at least you won't be there.

Re:Scammers

[cold fjord]

So might we summarize that you think there really isn't anything doable collectively in terms of emergency preparation? What objection have you raised that couldn't be raised in other contexts? Why pay for a fire department, they might not come and simply laugh as you die in a fire? Why pay for a police department, they might not come, or might even kill you. On and on.

I don't think it is so much a stupid idea as it isn't suitable for everyone. There seem to be a lot of people on Slashdot that prefer to do nothing, and complain bitterly while casting aspersions against those that do prepare.

I doubt you've lived through an emergency of the scope and duration contemplated for these shelters.

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[khallow]

I doubt organized crime will make it that far, but it is interesting to see you pulling for them.

So what? Your doubts are irrelevant. I'm merely pointing out the obvious. They're a rival power structure and the primary thing keeping them in check went away. It's also worth noting here that there are a number of governments which started out as organized crime of one sort or another, for example, the Communists of the USSR or the modern Israeli government (particularly, the Irgun paramilitary group which formed part of the roots for the current Likud party).

And from a practical standpoint, any organization which can survive the complete collapse of society is a strong candidate for seeding a new regional or national government, including religions and existing local governments.

Re:Scammers

[Squiddie]

So might we summarize that you think there really isn't anything doable collectively in terms of emergency preparation?

I didn't say that, and emergency preparation is different from paying someone to do it for you and expecting them to keep the terms when the time comes. It's called self-responsibility. However, the idea of bunkers is stupid, just ask Enver Hoxha.

What objection have you raised that couldn't be raised in other contexts?

That they have no obligation to you of the "end of the world" really comes. That's pretty obvious, not to mention the fact that you have no idea how well-stocked the place will be once you get there. For all you know, it isn't particularly well-made.

Why pay for a fire department, they might not come and simply laugh as you die in a fire?

I don't pay for a personal fire department that will only come when the entire world is burning. This is not the same situation. Also, a fire department is for everyone.

Why pay for a police department, they might not come, or might even kill you. On and on.

You'd be right about that in a certain way. However, the police don't promise to only come after the world ends, and you aren't paying them directly.

I don't think it is so much a stupid idea as it isn't suitable for everyone. There seem to be a lot of people on Slashdot that prefer to do nothing, and complain bitterly while casting aspersions against those that do prepare.

Paying someone to promise you a shelter in the event of society collapsing isn't preparing. It's pissing money away. Preparing might involve having a first aid kit, a fire extinguisher, and so on.

I doubt you've lived through an emergency of the scope and duration contemplated for these shelters.

Nobody has, because they're meant for an event that isn't going to happen, and you have no guarantee of accessing it in the event it does, nor do you have a guarantee of it working as intended.

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[rtb61]

The reality is there is only one plan that works. Think gold will protect in a collapsed society, why, you can eat it and of course if someone else wants it they will use a gun to take it. Think a gun and ammo are you path to safety, then a sniper will kill you before you even notice they are there. Bunkers at all and nothing more that tin cans to be opened for the goodies inside and that might well include the people inside as consumables.

Want to be safe, quite simply have more people on your side than any possible threat. The only thing in reality that can protect in times of crisis, is the same as what protects you right not and you would be unsafe right now without it, community. Best plan in times to crisis, who the community can quickly come together to support each other, how resources will be gathered and distributed, provisions for health care and of course policing.

Think you are safe in your personal private prison, not if someone wants something you have or your prison has been buried under rubble and people couldn't be bothered digging you out. I would have to say any government that hid it's arse underground whilst leaving the bulk of the public exposed, should straight up be buried and left there as a bad memory.

Re:Scammers

[cold fjord]

So you think there is no way to inspect the facilities? The provisions they have on hand? There aren't any other ways to verify they are building what they claim? I'm not going to agree with that. There are plenty of other commercial activities which developers build facilities for clients. I'm not sure why you think this is all that different.

There is something of a gap between having a flashlight and fire extinguisher on hand versus having a pre-built and provisioned shelter.

A nuclear war isn't the end of the world. Enver Hoxha wasn't using a bunker to protect him from fallout.

Re:Scammers

[cold fjord]

So what? Your doubts are irrelevant.

So what? It's only irrelevant if I'm wrong, and your opinions are equally irrelevant. Organized crime isn't that powerful, and they rely on civil order to protect them as much as they exploit it to threaten others. Stripped of social controls they could easily face extermination if they poked their head above ground. People have banded together before to put an end to various threats to the community.

The Communists were not organized crime but a revolutionary social-political movement It Irgun was only one a several factions.

It is unlikely that society in a major country would completely collapse under anything but a major nuclear exchange or something on the order of the Black Death or worse. Major urban centers would be destroyed, but there is a vast network of governments and residual capability in rural areas that would survive to varying degrees.

Re:Scammers

[Squiddie]

So you think there is no way to inspect the facilities?

Do you get to inspect every square inch of a hotel? No. It all depends on the agreement made. You have no way of knowing how much is actually there, what quality it is and so on. You would have basically have had to be there as it was being built to know this, and even then, you would have to know what right looks like, at which point, why not just do it for yourself?

'm not going to agree with that. There are plenty of other commercial activities which developers build facilities for clients. I'm not sure why you think this is all that different.

Because if this one doesn't work for its intended purpose, you have no way of suing. How dense are you?

There is something of a gap between having a flashlight and fire extinguisher on hand versus having a pre-built and provisioned shelter.

Yes, one is sensible and works in known situations and the other is batshit insane and a waste of money.

A nuclear war isn't the end of the world. Enver Hoxha wasn't using a bunker to protect him from fallout.

It would basically signal the end of civilization as we know it. So again, there is no incentive to keep such promises, and as for Hoxha, the point is that the bunkers didn't actually do anything and couldn't be used in the manner "intended" for them. It is the same deal here, people pay money up front with no guarantee of entry. If that isn't a scam, I don't know what is.

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[cold fjord]

Probably not.

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[Anonymous Coward]

That depends on your diet.

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[Tom]

Very smart insight. You should also mention that organized crime has the organisational advantage in not only having a clear command structure, but also one that can operate independently of the public communication networks. Heck, in some countries they have their own mobile networks.

So, it honestly depends on the warehouse owner/manager and the individual connections that the person has.

Depends on the scenario. It makes for a better movie when the breakdown of civilization happens in hours, but from history I would guess that it will take days or weeks, more realistically. That is more than enough to take a few trucks, drive over to the nearest warehouse and simply take everything you want, at gunpoint. Time it right during the breakdown and no police will show up to stop you. You just need to be slightly faster and more organised than other looters.

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[rioki]

The key point that shows this is a scam is the fact that they are equipped and stocked for one year. In almost all scenarios where you would need something like this, one year later is not much less lethal than the day you got into the shelter. Generally speaking, if you take it seriously, you should aim for 25 years.

I also find the claim that the shelter will sustain a direct hit by a nuclear bomb ludicrous. I think they do not realize what a nuke can do in lay down deployment. Nuclear bunkers that are built for direct hit are a thick outer shell and an inner shell connected by hydraulic shock absorbents. Most nuclear shelters where designed with the calculated risk that they will not survive a direct hit, since you will not waste a nuke on civil targets. (If that is true, is a totally different question.)

Re:Scammers

[rioki]

I think you two are thinking along the correct lines. Although ex-military types may have the better training and discipline, they still generally have a well adjusted moral compass (at first), but the criminal types don't. The criminals may still have the upper hand, until the shooting starts, since they don't care for others.

Re:Scammers

[Intrepid imaginaut]

Maybe for a short period but this scenario relies on organised crime somehow surviving an apocalypse that wiped out all government authority and associated infrastructure. There's no reason to believe that they'd be hit any less by a pandemic for example. Afterwards what you've got is a gang of people preying on a much larger group of people who no longer need to fear repercussions from the law if they just up and shoot Don Corleone's strong arm men, and this is something often overlooked - the law protects criminals from the geneal population because the general population has a lot more to lose than criminals by retaliating in kind under the aegis of civilisation.

Take that away and the sheep very rapidly turn into wolves. Neighbourhood watch groups become armed militia and then vigilante raiders. Susie homemaker picks up a shotgun to look after her kids. While organised crime would probably thrive for a while, especially in societies without much gun ownership, the longer term road warrior scenario would require some fairly specific circumstances to become possible.

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[khallow]

It's only irrelevant if I'm wrong

That's a good reason right there.

Organized crime isn't that powerful

Compared to what? We're speaking of the fall of civilization not taking on a superpower at its prime. They don't need to be that powerful.

and they rely on civil order to protect them as much as they exploit it to threaten others

Not really. "Civil order" doesn't provide all that much for them now. Nobody will recover those stolen drugs your homey stole from you. The police aren't going out of their way to help you when your rival tries to kill you.

Stripped of social controls they could easily face extermination if they poked their head above ground.

From who?

People have banded together before to put an end to various threats to the community.

And people have also not done that. The very existence of organized crime in the first place is due to people not taking that sort of action.

Further, it's quite possible that they'll be least bad of the alternatives present and have popular support.

The Communists were not organized crime but a revolutionary social-political movement It Irgun was only one a several factions.

Neither observation detracts from my point since you're just using a different label. The communists talked a good game, but they also robbed banks and ran protection rackets. Irgun is one faction more than zero.

Major urban centers would be destroyed, but there is a vast network of governments and residual capability in rural areas that would survive to varying degrees.

Ripe for takeover especially if those governments lose the support of their populace.

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[khallow]

They have the food and a better tactical position. They probably would also have the weapons.

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[Kjella]

And you think either will survive the hoarding and looting during the early collapse? Anywhere that lots of people know about is going to be hit with well armed and/or desperate masses. The only way a modern city survives is through massive imports of food from the countryside, cut the supplies and the electricity so there's no refridgerators or freezers and mass starvation starts in less than a week as food is eaten and spoiled and not being replaced by anything. Even if you can survive the worst of it by stashing away some supplies, it's still not a sustainable place to be. I'd probably go with a rural farm at the end of the road, prep for 19th century-style living off the land. Nothing big or fancy, just far enough off the radar that you won't get hordes from the city - who'll soon run out of gas and be stuck where they are and not worth the trouble for the few stragglers that come by. With maybe a bugout bunker up in the hills with supplies if you meet heavier resistance than you can handle, a roving band needs to keep roving to sustain itself so they'll be on their way soon.

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[cold fjord]

They are facilities maintenance people, remember? There won't be many of them, they aren't going to have the keys to the kingdom, there is going to be more than one entrance, and they are not likely going to have access to any armory. And who do you think is going to let their families through if they aren't admitting other people? Do you think they are all going to be in on it? Do you think anyone that was inside before it starts is going to support them? Do you think they know how all of the security and access controls work, or have the access to use them?

That isn't likely to work, and would be very dangerous for them to try if any of them were foolish enough to do so. I doubt the incoming people would regard it kindly, and I doubt they would all be unarmed.

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[Dog-Cow]

1) You are an ass.

2) +Funny moderation doesn't give any karma, so many mods will throw in Insightful or Interesting to give the poster some kudos.

I didn't check the moderation history of this particular post, because I don't give a fuck.

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[Hognoxious]

Getting a job as the receptionist at an asshole ark is preparation.

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[khallow]

There won't be many of them, they aren't going to have the keys to the kingdom, there is going to be more than one entrance, and they are not likely going to have access to any armory.

Yea, right. I think we're already seeing problems with your assumptions. They're maintenance people with long term access to the site. They'll have the keys to the kingdom. Plus, their boss might be in on it as well. Just because he's taking payment now doesn't mean he'll honor that agreement later.

And who do you think is going to let their families through if they aren't admitting other people? Do you think they are all going to be in on it?

You assume those families aren't already in the complex.

That isn't likely to work, and would be very dangerous for them to try if any of them were foolish enough to do so. I doubt the incoming people would regard it kindly, and I doubt they would all be unarmed.

Depends on what they brought. Just collapsing the entrances would probably keep them out.

Now, you might notice that I use words like "might" and "would". I don't think there's some law of nature that this will happen. I just think it's foolish to assert as you have that things will go a certain way no matter what happens. I think I just state the painfully obvious when I note that even in a healthy society that's not in a state of disaster, people betray each other all the time for modest gain. It's not even remotely a stretch to think that they'd do that when society is falling apart and the repercussions to betrayal may be that they get to survive.

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[Feral Nerd]

None, and who will you complain to?

Personally I'd rather rot outside than inside. If you're locked up with more than one person you'll have to be constantly watching your back.

That depends on where you are locked in and with whom. If you are locked in with a bunch of regular people they usually form some kindo of regulated community sooner or later. If, on the other hand, you are locked in with a bunch of virtuously selfish sociopaths in an Ayn Randish paradise like Galt''s Gulch you'd better watch out.

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[Hognoxious]

I'd go for bracelets. That way you can give them a warning shot and they can still keep working with the other one.

I know, I'm a big softie.

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[AmiMoJo]

According to their FAQ most of the "staff" are actually just customers with particular skills. They claims to have selected customers to give a wide range of necessary skills (doctors, surgeons, engineers, mechanics, ex-military with knowledge of survival and nuclear war etc.)

So the non-paying staff would want to let those people in to ensure their own survival, assuming there was enough room after their own families had arrived.

The real problem is illustrated here:

"we can say it would be virtually impossible to execute a breach of the shelter without suffering significant losses. "

So the desperate people with nothing else to live for or the invading armies will eventually overrun your shelter. Great.

"High security gun vaults store all weapons within each facility. Weapons may only be removed and used for defensive measures against outside intruders or threats."

Good luck enforcing that. They specifically state that there will be no governmental or legal structure, just people with "military and law enforcement experience".

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[drinkypoo]

I have a feeling that organized crime, which already has a lot of hooks into the underlying infrastructure of society that people don't like to think about, will probably be some of the best survivors in these circumstances.

You're right, but it won't be the criminals you're thinking of. It'll be the police and military, the largest and best-equipped criminal gangs that there are. Obviously the military are much better-equipped, and they're even more brainwashed than are the police. They'll stick together and do more than fine, they'll be the new scourge. We'll learn to fear camos and tan uniforms.

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[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Go look at the moderation of your post. Was it +5 Funny? No, it was +5 Insightful.

You poor baby, don't be jealous. lol

Seriously, if you had any less brain activity it would be legal to harvest your organs.

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[cold fjord]

You think I should be "jealous" of your 2^3 +5 comments? Now that IS funny! LOL

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[McWilde]

Missed the insightful option. Posting to undo mod.

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[Eunuchswear]

Shhh.

The first rule about setting up the "B" ark is you don't let the passengers on the "B" ark know it's a scam.

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[tburkhol]

When 'civilization' collapses, the only thing will matter is loyalty. As long as the banks and the trains work, wealthy people can buy an approximation of loyalty, but that often turns into resentment if monetary power is removed.

So here's this bunch of maintenance, security, and chandler staff, maintaining an elaborate panic-complex for paranoid billionaires. Maybe for decades; probably never to be used. How do you get those people to be loyal enough to those (probably unseen) clients, that they'll choose to spend the rest of their lives in the Vault with Paris Hilton and Donald Trump and let cousin Billy and the hot waitress at Chili's die in a fire? Money is only a motivator when there is a civilization to spend it in.

You seem to be conflating two kinds of shelter: one where a handful of rich elites could hold out against armed, post-apocalyptic mobs, and one where an armed, not-quite apocalyptic force could overcome the defenders. If the facility is not defensible enough for its staff to disable access controls and hold against the evacuating clients, then there's no way said clients could hold against starving mobs.

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[Ol Olsoc]

Hey asshole, get someone to read this to you:

Holy crap, JustAnotherOldgGuy, I hope you see the perfect application of irony in your post.

Cutting the espresso by 90 percent might help.

Re:Scammers

[TWX]

That's also assuming that the criminal-types don't recruit military veterans into their ranks. Quite frankly the veterans and their families have to eat too, and while they might be better trained at the kind of assault I postulated, that doesn't mean that they'll have enough firepower to succeed or that it wouldn't simply be easier to associate with someone that already has the means, however unsavory their past has been.

Re: Scammers

[Anonymous Coward]

It's been made:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallout_(video_game)

Re:Scammers

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

You think I should be "jealous" of your 2^3 +5 comments? Now that IS funny! LOL

I have no idea what you're jealous of, but you certainly seem to be pretty tightly wound to have such a shit fit over comments on a message board. You must be a real hoot at parties.

Go outside once in a while, find a girl (or a guy, or whatever) and enjoy life a bit. You're so bent out of shape over this that it would be funny if it weren't so embarrassing.

Re:Scammers

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

No, my comment was a "joke", something you apparently aren't all that familiar with. And I think that's a shame.

Anyone who doesn't see the humor and silliness in the idea of "moving into a Home Depot near a grocery store" needs to take a chill pill, have a drink, and loosen the fuck up.

Seriously, take off your Pedant Badge for 3 minutes and have a laugh instead of over-analyzing everything to pieces.

Re:Scammers

[Hognoxious]

Well, Jeeves, you've been our butler for ten years now. Perhaps it's time for us to serve you?.

Re:Scammers

[cold fjord]

You're the one having a fit, not me.

Re:Scammers

[Hognoxious]

any hypothesized corrupt maintenance personnel would presumably not hold exclusive control over shelter access codes/credentials/whatnot

Then how would they be able to keep out anyone who just showed up?

any would likely be quickly subdued via firearms wielded by the "rightful" and presumably well-armed shelter occupants upon their arrival.

Assuming the guards/caretakers aren't armed, and/or the shelter isn't bullet proof. In the latter case, what's the point of being inside it?

Re:Scammers

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

You're the one having a fit, not me.

Uh, yeah, just keep repeating that and hope that someone else will believe it.

Re:Scammers

[davesays]

That was Noah... :-)

Re:Scammers

[pnutjam]

Most insightful comment ever.

Re:Scammers

[Pseudonym Authority]

It's pretty fucking clear you are. All those downmods you got for your NSA shilling got you pissy?

Re:Scammers

[tehcyder]

What are the odds that ALL of the on-site maintenance people share your character flaws? What are the odds that they can or do control all entrances? What makes you think their families can even get there?

If you think that not bending the knee to those with wealth and power even following an apocalypse is a character flaw, that makes your sig fabulously ironic. Do you really think that being rich confers some sort of right to survive compared with everyone else?

Re:Scammers

[Paul server guy]

and, FWIW, I won't mod AC postings.

Re:Scammers

[cold fjord]

You apparently can't count.

Your crank comments aren't all that interesting. Move along.

Re:Scammers

[cold fjord]

You do seem to have to explain your "joke" to quite a few people. Here is something you apparently haven't considered: maybe the problem isn't his lack of a sense of humor but the marginal "joke" you think you told.

Re:Scammers

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

maybe the problem isn't his lack of a sense of humor but the marginal "joke" you think you told.

I'll be sure to give your comment all the consideration it deserves. lol

Lighten up, I'm not the guy who came down to where you work and knocked all the dicks out of your mouth.

Re:Scammers

[cold fjord]

Your character continues to shine through. I guess you'll just continue getting older, but better seems unlikely. That's kind of sad. Good luck with that.

Re:Scammers

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Good luck with that.

Thanks, I really value your input because it's always good to hear what the unable-to-get-a-date basement dwellers have to say about stuff. lol

Take my money!

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Wait...don't take my money.

"The San Diego businessman is gunning to be the vanguard of a multibillion-dollar industry."

Or he'll bilk lots of people out of tons of money and then retire as the company goes down in flames.

Re:Take my money!

[hey!]

Seriously, if civilization actually does fall apart exactly who is going to compel him to honor his promises? There won't be any courts to sue him, and the people who paid him to do their apocalypse preparation for them will be... unprepared.

So either way the people (if any) who pay for these things will never get to use them.

Re:Take my money!

[swillden]

he'll bilk lots of people out of tons of money and then retire as the company goes down in flames.

This, particularly since $35K doesn't seem like nearly enough money for what he's promising. That's enough to build the place, maybe, assuming he got the basic structure for next to nothing (which he probably did), but no way is that enough money to stock it with years of luxury supplies per person, and to keep it all maintained and updated for decades as we await the end of the world. Not to mention building and maintaining the airstrip that will be needed so the buyers have some prayer of getting to the place when the world is collapsing.

I suppose maybe it's like a timeshare, and there are hefty annual maintenance fees on top of the purchase price?

Re:Take my money!

[gweihir]

Or they will find that the nice-looking areas are exactly the ones looking nice, but things like food and water stores or independent electricity generators and air-filters are sadly missing because they are expensive.

Re:Take my money!

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Seriously, if civilization actually does fall apart exactly who is going to compel him to honor his promises?

An excellent point.

After all the world will be in chaos, hardly a good time to try and serve a subpoena or arrange a court date.

Re:Take my money!

[aXis100]

$35k gets you four people to a room - it's nice, but not opulent. According to TFA, the real luxury ones were $3 - $5 million.

Re:Take my money!

[Deadstick]

"Some other fraud" is the most likely of your list. He'll make a shitload of money selling people something that won't help.

Re:Take my money!

[pipedwho]

Or maybe it's like internet bandwidth and is being heavily oversold? Where average demand of people popping in for the occasional visit is hundreds of times lower than the peak demand if an apocalypse comes.

Re:Take my money!

[petermgreen]

Insurance protects you against events that are bad for you personally but where society as a whole keeps functioning. Since society as a whole is still functioning and the insurance company wants to get future buisness you have a pretty good chance of actually getting your claim paid out.

Buying a ticket for a post-apoclyptic bunker is another thing entirely. If society breaks down completely who is going to enforce your contract for a slot? If the military takes over to maintain order do you really think they are going to let civilians keep a good bunker rather than taking it for themselves.

Re:Take my money!

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Insurance against calamities on a larger scale than your underwriter is prepared to cope with, or sufficiently large to eliminate the legal and economic framework under which the policy was purchased would be pretty worthless.

Just look at the truly impressive work that AIG and friends managed to do in selling impossible amounts of insurance, and remember that that didn't even require an external catastrophe of any particular magnitude, they just fucked it up during the course of business. You think that they'd do better under circumstances that have people running for the bunkers and executing continuity-of-government directives?

Re:Take my money!

[cold fjord]

Buying a space in the bunker is little different. You are prepaying for construction and preparation before trouble strikes. The payout is always waiting for you, you only have to show up to collect. Nobody really has to do anything else like write a check to send through the mail.

The military has its own bunkers, and there isn't enough military to control the country if civil order breaks down throughout the country.

At worst you are making an argument for building your own private shelter although one gets the sense that most people here actually oppose shelter for anyone.

Re:Take my money!

[cold fjord]

There is a meaningful difference between paying to have physical preparations made before a disaster, and receiving a check in the mail. Surely you can see that? They aren't waiting to start construction until after disaster hits.

Re:Take my money!

[khallow]

I think the point here is that just because there is a bunker and you paid money to have a spot in that bunker, doesn't mean you will have a spot in that bunker when it matters. For example, who's more valuable to a bunker leader, an extremely rich person and their rather useless family who just lost everything they owned, or a doctor, mechanic, or ex-soldier?

Re:Take my money!

[cold fjord]

And how do you think those people that didn't make provisions will know to be there, and make it past the people that did?

Just because you despise them doesn't mean their plan will fail.

Re:Take my money!

[khallow]

By not building the shelters?

That's an option right there. Or overbooking what's there. And if you have money flow which you control, then you can embezzle it.

Re:Take my money!

[cold fjord]

And what might that be? If he is going to make big money off of it you would think it would at least appear to be useful.

I'll let you in on a little secret: the original post was a load of bull.

Re:Take my money!

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Could you expand on that? How do you think he will "bilk" people? By not building the shelters? Some other fraud?

Those are two good guesses. Or maybe they'll be built with crappy materials or be oversold, or be unavailable/unfinished when the shit hits the fan. There could be any number of things that could go awry. Maybe squatters will get their first and not let you in.

-

Or are you worried that he will build the shelters, people will buy them, and there won't be a nuclear war?

Yes, that would be my greatest fear, that we won't have a nuclear war. Heaven forbid that we don't have a nuclear war, you shit-for brains.

-

I take it your preference is for all of humanity to die should there be a nuclear war?

Yes, you ignorant dumbfuck, that would be my ultimate hope, that the entire world perishes. Of course that's it.

-

Do you have a leg to stand on here, or just nonsense claims?

Do you have a point to make, or are you just a whiny little asshole?

Re:Take my money!

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Not everyone equals your trustworthiness.

And not everyone equals your gullibility (or your stupidity, but that's another matter).

Too much starch in your panties today, cold fjord, or are you just naturally an asshole?

Re:Take my money!

[cold fjord]

Not building shelters will be obvious fraud and will be discovered before a crisis. Overbooking is likely to be discovered as well given the sums involved.

Either of those means jail time before any crisis.

Re:Take my money!

[cold fjord]

How about if I meet you half way and concede that some assholes find me irritating?

Re:Take my money!

[khallow]

And how do you think those people that didn't make provisions will know to be there, and make it past the people that did?

Because the bunker leaders don't let the people that "made provisions" in and instead let the people with valuable skills in.

Just because you despise them doesn't mean their plan will fail.

I don't despise them. I just note that the plan ignores a practical and obvious choice available to whoever controls access to the bunker.

Re:Take my money!

[khallow]

Not building shelters will be obvious fraud and will be discovered before a crisis.

So?

Either of those means jail time before any crisis.

Plenty of people scam and embezzle without an escape route. But having said that, jail time only matters if the people involved are caught first.

Re:Take my money!

[Weirsbaski]

Or he'll bilk lots of people out of tons of money and then retire as the company goes down in flames.

So you're saying his business will bomb?

Re:Take my money!

[Squiddie]

There isn't much use in a post-apocalyptic colony of survivors for treacherous people like you.

I guess that means they'd eject the bankers first.

Re:Take my money!

[cold fjord]

The claim was that the businessman here would bilk his customers of large sums of money and then retire.

Being convicted of fraud and going to jail isn't normally thought of as retirement.

Obvious fraud involving large sums of money tends to increase the likelihood of getting caught.

Re:Take my money!

[cold fjord]

Hoxha isn't truly dead as long as people keep his values alive.

Re:Take my money!

[KGIII]

It is reasonable to conclude that they are somehow invested in this scam. I live in the middle of nowhere, have my own power and well, can hunt and fish, and a nice garden as well as wood heat. I will be okay for a while.

Re:Take my money!

[cold fjord]

Actually your plan isn't practical and obvious, it is the reverse of that.

The only realistic way to get people of the desirable skills mix in an emergency at on out of the way location is to recruit them before hand, not after the emergency strikes and you're relying on people drifting through. Furthermore, you're ignoring the reactions of the other people there. It is likely that people are recruited by word of mouth. How do you think they will react if friends or family are treacherously excluded? Peaceful acquiescence? I doubt it.

You're also ignoring the question of how do the "special" people that you think should be admitted would make it though the people that paid for a place there and are treacherously kept out?

As I said, your plan isn't practical and obvious, it is the reverse of that, and treacherous to boot. How do you think that treachery will go down with the people inside? Why would anyone inside ever trust them again?

You certainly seem to despise that "useless family".

Re:Take my money!

[khallow]

Obvious fraud involving large sums of money tends to increase the likelihood of getting caught.

It also is a quick haul. And I see here that you acknowledge the chance of getting caught even with rather outrageous and obvious fraud is not 100%. So there's a retirement strategy here. Grab a bunch of money and don't get caught.

Re:Take my money!

[cold fjord]

You're really reaching today. No, it wouldn't be a "quick haul." How could it be? This involves a significant construction project. That isn't something that ever goes quickly. Or do you just envision a bunch of wealthy successful people blindly cutting large checks without any due diligence whatsoever?

The fact that you can string together a series of words in English doesn't necessarily make it a valid idea.

Re:Take my money!

[khallow]

No, it wouldn't be a "quick haul." How could it be?

Take a fraction of the money to look busy at the construction site. Move the rest out of the country. Disappear the moment someone starts to catch on. That's the short game.

Or do you just envision a bunch of wealthy successful people blindly cutting large checks without any due diligence whatsoever?

If he's getting any funding now, that's probably going on.

The fact that you can string together a series of words in English doesn't necessarily make it a valid idea.

You have to use reason too. Go for it.

Re:Take my money!

[khallow]

The only realistic way to get people of the desirable skills mix in an emergency at on out of the way location is to recruit them before hand

Or take in people with the desired skills from the neighborhood. None of the skills I mentioned are so rare that you can't find them in a moderate-sized town.

Furthermore, you're ignoring the reactions of the other people there. It is likely that people are recruited by word of mouth. How do you think they will react if friends or family are treacherously excluded? Peaceful acquiescence? I doubt it.

No different that it would be otherwise.

As I said, your plan isn't practical and obvious, it is the reverse of that, and treacherous to boot.

Ok, it's practical, obvious, and treacherous. Not seeing the argument against it.

How do you think that treachery will go down with the people inside?

Depends. They might be just fine with it. Their survival is at stake.

You certainly seem to despise that "useless family".

Again, I do not. That's your imagination not mine. "Useless" has a very specific context here: have skills and generally good health and can contribute to the survival and success of the people currently in the bunker.

Re:Take my money!

[khallow]

How do you think that treachery will go down with the people inside?

Also, this a case of us versus them. If the leader doesn't betray the group, then they're going to care a whole lot less about who gets betrayed outside the group.

Re:Take my money!

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Or he'll bilk lots of people out of tons of money and then retire as the company goes down in flames.

So you're saying his business will bomb?

Lol, and we have a winner, folks! Badda bing, badda boom!

Re:Take my money!

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

How about if I meet you half way and concede that some assholes find me irritating?

Yes, when squeezed out through the anus, grit-laden shit like you will irritate some assholes. :) lol

Frankly, I think everyone finds your pedantry and humorless douchbaggery to be a crashing bore. You're such a Debbie Downer.

Re:Take my money!

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

The existence of the bunker isn't the issue; it's being let in when crunch-time hits. If management cant' control access, it's a sucky bunker that will be at considerable risk of attack in a disaster scenario. If they can control access, you are depending on them to honor an agreement enforced by a legal structure that is, presumably, currently dealing with bigger problems right now, if it remains functional at all.

I don't mean to allege that this guy specifically is planning on doing so; but those circumstances would make 'overbooking' a very tempting strategy. If disaster fails to occur, you merely need to conceal exactly how many spots you've sold. If disaster does occur, the people you do admit are unlikely to give up their spots to let in the ones you don't, and the ones that don't won't exactly have much recourse.

It doesn't help that, pre-disaster, the people with the most money are the most valuable potential-bunker-dwellers, since they can pay the most for spots; but during a disaster, and after, people with assorted useful skills are the most valuable potential-bunker-dwellers. There could well be some overlap, if some doctor who has made good in his practice can afford a space, he's also a useful guy to have around; but the post-apocalypse's demand for investment bankers is probably fairly low.

Re:Take my money!

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I can't speak for khallow; but my impression was that the bunker leader was the one who has an incentive to double-cross his clients, in favor of people who will be more useful to him should the shit actually hit the fan; not that those useful people would self-organize and head for the bunker.

If nothing else, during the course of constructing an emergency bunker, stocking it with necessary supplies and equipment, making provisions for its security, etc. one would presumably make contact with a variety of people with relevant skills. You'll be overseeing construction, food and medical supply, security, and so on. If you really wanted to improve your chances, you'd presumably do additional research; but 'the people who built and furnished the bunker' are a practically ready-made group of better-than-average candidates.

It is true that screwing over anyone you allow into the bunker would be a dangerous plan, so you'd likely have to put up with some less-useful friends and family; but screwing over someone without connections to those allowed inside, and who isn't allowed inside, has fewer obvious risks.

Re:Take my money!

[cold fjord]

Wow, the terror of 4th graders everywhere strikes again.

I suppose there is one bright spot there: people may overlook deficiencies in your rhetoric when they discover your character.

Re:Take my money!

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Wow, the terror of 4th graders everywhere strikes again.

Lol, having trouble letting go, eh?

Take a warm bath and some Midol, then go have yourself a nice cry. You'll feel better.

to paraphrase Alice in Dilbert

[iggymanz]

to paraphrase Alice in Dilbert: I don't need to spend the money for a luxury bomb shelter. When civilization ends, I only need guns, burglary tools, and the addresses of luxury bomb shelters

Re:to paraphrase Alice in Dilbert

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

You plan to burglarize a place you know is occupied with armed individuals who are already waiting for you to turn up?

You sure that wasn't Wally you're quoting?

Re:to paraphrase Alice in Dilbert

[0123456]

You plan to burglarize a place you know is occupied with armed individuals who are already waiting for you to turn up?

Burglars generally aren't very smart. If they were smart, they'd be bankers.

Re:to paraphrase Alice in Dilbert

[TWX]

Even military silos like the Titan II facilities required external security to prevent individual persons or small groups from being able to impact the base from above while they're locked down. Military fallout shelters can only operate independently of the atmosphere for a relatively short time, and I expect that civilian fallout shelters would have even shorter amounts of time that they could operate without being connected to the environment. If the fallout shelter actually worked properly (ie, could be sealed to the atmosphere when the atmosphere is temporarily hazardous) then it would have to be sealed-up well enough to limit air intake and exhaust to only a few places. Those places in-turn could be attacked by a surface aggressor such that the occupants asphyxiate or have to open the doors, at which time the base could be compromised, or worse, the aggressors could intentionally block any doors from being able to be opened while blocking airflow through the shelter specifically to kill the occupants before they then cut or dig their way in to get at the supplies without any resistance.

Even if the occupants have large stores of bottled oxygen they still need a means to get carbon dioxide out of the ambient air, so simply having oxygen on-hand would not necessarily be enough to prevent asphyxiation either.

Re:to paraphrase Alice in Dilbert

[iggymanz]

In this purely fictional and hypothetical scenario the "shelter" will be occupied by unconscious or dead people before fully breached, no worries. Solved problem by the WW II "shock troops"

Re:to paraphrase Alice in Dilbert

[TWX]

Try reading up on Biosphere II and you'll see how that's not really workable, and that was with environmental experts, access to sunlight, and lots of funding to supply everything that they could think of.

Re:to paraphrase Alice in Dilbert

[TWX]

Close. You wouldn't want to stick around though, because you're just as vulnerable as they were if you stay there.

Re:to paraphrase Alice in Dilbert

[khallow]

Try reading up on Biosphere II and you'll see how that's not really workable, and that was with environmental experts, access to sunlight, and lots of funding to supply everything that they could think of.

Having actually read some of that stuff, what makes you think it 's not workable? I wouldn't expect a first generation of these bunkers to be able to do that, but it's just another engineering problem. Biosphere II wasn't the last word here.

Re:to paraphrase Alice in Dilbert

[thinkwaitfast]

In 1965, the Russian CELSS experiment BIOS-3 determined that 8 m2 of exposed Chlorella could remove carbon dioxide and replace oxygen within the sealed environment for a single human. The algae were grown in vats underneath artificial light.

Re:to paraphrase Alice in Dilbert

[Tom]

You missed the part where they employ an armed private security force to defend against exactly that.

tl;dr: Try, they will shoot you.

Re:to paraphrase Alice in Dilbert

[lars_stefan_axelsson]

Oh come on, even I know that nuclear subs can stay underwater without replenishing the air supply for months. You just need the CO2 scrubbers.

No, they also need a source of oxygen. Nuclear submarines get that from the ocean.

Re:to paraphrase Alice in Dilbert

[david_thornley]

The concept of "employ" gets real fuzzy after an apocalypse. Once money is irrelevant, and there's no law enforcement or court system, how do you keep an armed private security force loyal? Keep them on the surface and they flee. Give them homes in the shelter and they take over whenever they feel like it, and that won't be fun.

Read up on your Machiavelli. He covers some of this stuff (although obviously not in this context).

Re:to paraphrase Alice in Dilbert

[Tom]

how do you keep an armed private security force loyal?

By carefully selecting them beforehand, and by offering them and their families a place in the hideout.

Give them homes in the shelter and they take over whenever they feel like it

That's the careful selection part. Loyal people still exist in this world, you know?

Re:to paraphrase Alice in Dilbert

[RespekMyAthorati]

Loyal people still exist in this world, you know?

Not during an apocalypse, you know?

Re:to paraphrase Alice in Dilbert

[Tom]

As I've not been in an Apocalypse, I don't know and neither do you. We are making guesses.

But we look back at history and see that even when the world goes to shit around you, especially when the world goes to shit around you, people do not become monsters. On the contrary, it seems that cooperation, loyalty and communality emerge even more strongly.

First reported in 2012

[DerekLyons]

First reported on /. back in 2012

Re:First reported in 2012

[fyngyrz]

c'mon, man. Recycling is trendy.

Re: First reported in 2012

[Ahnahmoley]

I swear on my future children's lives I was going to point this out. I know it was here just didn't have the link. Imaginary mod points to you kind sir/ma'am.

The Rich?

[0123456]

The rich don't rent space in someone else's shelter. They have their own.

Re:The Rich?

[TWX]

Plus the rich can afford to have very temporary shelters where they expect to be (i.e., at their urban homes) and could also afford to maintain second homes in a rural area away from likely targets plus the transportation to make the trip after it's safe enough to come out of a temporary shelter.

If you think about the nature of targets, it makes the most sense to attack that which contributes to the opponent's warmaking effort. Known large formations (fleets at sea, any substantial field formations), concentrated military facilities (bases, forts, ports, depots), followed by definitive military production (factories and possibly the cities that contain them), followed by the infrastructure needed to rebuild (secondary factories and their cities, power plants, major power distribution stations) and somewhere in the mix, command-and-control that the opponent would use to attempt to direct their war effort (seats of government and possibly airports that could realistically be used by a commander-in-chief). Attacking just about anything else is a waste of resources.

Hence the need to be rural if such a thing happens. Don't be in cities, especially cities where the military-industrial complex has a manufacturing presence. Don't be near military facilities. Don't be near concentrations of government that could be important in the opponent's eyes, don't be too near critical infrastructure. Even ignoring the lack of damage from a military strike in a rural place, there are also simply fewer other people to compete for resources with even if one's entire facility is little more than a large farm or estate.

In all honesty, I expect a system somewhere between feudalism and the English structure of the landed gentry would become the norm for awhile. Wealthy people with estates that would be capable of organizing able-bodied people to see to their protection and the protection of their families, who would work the land to produce food while the landowner coordinates distribution and negotiates with other estates for the exchange of resources would probably be the easiest way to sustain the rural population once the cities and government are wiped out. After all, the landowner probably can't work the entire estate himself, nor can he defend it himself, but if he can organize others so that they as a group are formidable, and if he doesn't literally lord-over them demeaning them then it would probably be the most stable structure if the rest of the economy is otherwise destroyed. Very few individuals would have the skills to strike-out on their own and survive independently and would have to essentially be trappers; hunting would probably not sustain them and alone, they're probably not secure enough to subsistence farm if there's any risk of roving bands pillaging their crops.

Re:The Rich?

[0123456]

Problem is, most of those wealthy peoples' wealth is just bits in a computer.

I tend to agree about feudal life, but the Lord wouldn't be the rich banker who bought the land before the apocalypse, it would be his bodyguard, who cut his throat and took over just after they arrived there.

Re:The Rich?

[TWX]

Could be. Depends on the relationship between the bodyguard and the client. If it's been good and the bodyguard himself and his family feel that they've disproportionately benefited from the client and if they trust him to continue to do better for them than they would do for themselves then it might not be a big deal. If the bodyguard either doesn't like his employer, doesn't think his employer will make good decisions in the new paradigm, or thinks that he can do just as well or better without him, you may well be right.

Re:The Rich?

[thinkwaitfast]

Hardly need have to be rich. A large percentage of people I know have second homes in rural areas. If you live out west around a lot of vacant land, you can get one for a fraction the price of a new car.

Will gated communities become domed cities?

[swb]

How long until the gated community phenomenon becomes the walled/domed city phenomenon? The doming part might be unrealistic, but it's not hard to see the the gated community become the "bunker community" where the master plan includes bunkers and defensive barriers to make the whole thing one huge luxury fortress?

Re:Will gated communities become domed cities?

[TWX]

I think that without an external force of law it would quickly descend into something that mimics Lord of the Flies. First, if the nature of the economy is destroyed then money no longer acts as a relative-wealth scale within such a community. Second, local manmade rules that govern such a community, generally relying on an external force of law to be enforced, would no longer apply. Third, those within the community that are the first to realize this and are smart enough to know who to ally with and who to frag would probably take over or to factionalize into distinct groups. Machiavellian rules now immediately apply- each person or party would be in the position to build or betray alliances as necessary to attempt to fulfill their own objectives while realizing that everyone else is doing the exact same thing.

I think that your walled community would look more like Mogadishu in the early 2000s than like any sort of place I'd want to live.

Re:Will gated communities become domed cities?

[Joe_Dragon]

can the super rich CEO's keep the shelters running? Make macgyver fixes to stuff with what ever is on hand?

Re:Will gated communities become domed cities?

[AHuxley]

It depends on local law enforcement officials and their past feelings about the new super gated community. If it is their homes too, then it will be very well protected. If local political leaders can demand city/state protection it might be ok too for a while under normal conditions.
If local law enforcement officials are in another more distant part of a wider city looking after their own, then a vast super walled community will be as secure as any other upper middle class area with limited numbers of law enforcement officials.
The walled city phenomenon would work if the fake documents issue could be fixed. Too many people would just be attracted in due to wealth, have a good cover story and the luxury fortress community feel would fail under a flood of opportunistic people getting entry.

Re:Will gated communities become domed cities?

[AmiMoJo]

The doming part might be unrealistic

Even if there is no physical dome, I think "drone shields" are going to become popular. They might be based on some kind of RF jamming or maybe moderately powerful lasers, just enough to blind cameras.

Move to Switzerland

[mspohr]

Switzerland still requires that all residences have bomb shelters. Most people build an individual shelter in the basement. Some communities have a community shelter. The government also has an extensive (semi-secret) network of bomb shelters in the mountains... also lots of military equipment in mountain bomb shelters.
They are ready.

Re:Move to Switzerland

[Anonymous Coward]

Not true anymore.

Re:Move to Switzerland

[AHuxley]

The Swiss complexes have been totally mapped by many other nations thanks to walk in offers by trusted staff going back decades. Lots of cash and shared politics can get copies of any secure paper work.

Re: Move to Switzerland

[TWX]

The Swiss maintain tight control on the ammunition though, so that rifle might not be as immediately useful as one would think.

I'd also be concerned that as military technology has changed, there might not be ammunition available for many of the rifles in-inventory. If new rifles are of a different caliber then ammunition calibers for old rifles may simply not be available if the authorities controlling supply have to make choices about what to keep on hand.

Re:Move to Switzerland

[geekmux]

Switzerland still requires that all residences have bomb shelters. Most people build an individual shelter in the basement. Some communities have a community shelter. The government also has an extensive (semi-secret) network of bomb shelters in the mountains... also lots of military equipment in mountain bomb shelters. They are ready.

The nuclear weapon used to end WWII was rated at 21 kilotons in 1945.

The largest nuclear device ever detonated (in 1961) was rated at 50,000 kilotons. That's with technology over half a century old.

Just curious for all those Swiss preppers, what exactly do they figure they'll be sheltered from today?

Lets hope it's more than mere ignorance, since Swiss architecture doesn't exactly mirror NORAD.

Re: Move to Switzerland

[Anonymous Coward]

You are wrong. My brother spent last week doing inspections of bomb shelters (all swiss men are doing either military service or a substitutive service at least one week per year until their mid thirties). Either you have one in order in your house or you must pay a tax to get a space in the ones built by the state.

Re:Move to Switzerland

[AmiMoJo]

Can someone explain what the plan for these Swiss bomb shelters is? I can't really see how they would be useful in the modern world.

Conventional warfare - The country can bombed into rubble, and maybe most people survive but they lost the war anyway. I suppose military bunkers full of equipment make more sense, but these days if you lose air superiority you have lost the war anyway.

Nuclear warfare - Even if you survive, there will be nothing to go back to. Your country might be uninhabitable afterwards so you only prolong your slow death. If the country is still habitable then you are back to the conventional warfare problem.

Seems like it would be better to spend money on a really good air force and air defences, and diplomacy. Anyone capable of invading a central European country won't be put off by some demolished bridges and deep mountain bunkers.

Re:Move to Switzerland

[drinkypoo]

Conventional warfare - The country can bombed into rubble, and maybe most people survive but they lost the war anyway.

People don't do that, because what you really want is for all the people to die, and to leave as many buildings intact as possible. Unless, of course, you're Dick Cheney. Then you want to blow up as many important buildings as possible so that you can get a no-bid contract to rebuild them for your baby, Halliburton.

Seriously though, there's modern useful buildings there, nobody is going to level the country.

Re: Move to Switzerland

[drinkypoo]

I'd also be concerned that as military technology has changed, there might not be ammunition available for many of the rifles in-inventory. If new rifles are of a different caliber

It's not a big deal. You can do the math to figure out what kind of ammo you need to stock. And they can do surveys to find out what kind of math to do. But the truth is that guns haven't changed much and most ammunition that was popular 20 or even 40 years ago is still popular and readily available now.

Re:Move to Switzerland

[AmiMoJo]

Okay, but it doesn't change the nature of the problem. Everyone is in the bunker, can't come out because a rifle is little use against a cluster bomb. The army can't bring out the heavy equipment because that too will be destroyed from above.

Shelters made sense during WW2 for large countries where air superiority was not possible and ground invasion the inevitable progression. But now, for Switzerland... It doesn't seem effective.

Re:Move to Switzerland

[drinkypoo]

Shelters made sense during WW2 for large countries where air superiority was not possible and ground invasion the inevitable progression. But now, for Switzerland... It doesn't seem effective.

Shelters are a place to hide during bombing. That's it. That's not unuseful, though. Bombs are still a thing that people drop on cities during wars.

Re: Move to Switzerland

[jittles]

I'd also be concerned that as military technology has changed, there might not be ammunition available for many of the rifles in-inventory. If new rifles are of a different caliber

It's not a big deal. You can do the math to figure out what kind of ammo you need to stock. And they can do surveys to find out what kind of math to do. But the truth is that guns haven't changed much and most ammunition that was popular 20 or even 40 years ago is still popular and readily available now.

Yep. There are pretty much only two caliber rounds used for rifles in militaries (wow my spell check doesn't have 'militaries' in it) around the world. Even the Russian uses (almost) the same caliber bullet but with a different cartridge. There's the 5.56mm NATO and 5.45mm Warsaw pact and the 7.62mm Nato and Warsaw Pact. So at most they would have to stock 4 different sized rifle cartridges. I don't think they use any Warsaw Pact weapons though - so they should only have two.

Re:Move to Switzerland

[mspohr]

Can anyone explain how any bomb shelter anywhere would be useful?

When the shit hits the fan...

[bmo]

...your best bet is to be friends with and rely on your neighbors.

If you are a "prepper" and think that you can wait out a siege in your bomb shelter or bunker or whatever, you are sadly mistaken. There are more of them/us than there are of you, and if you are especially one of the people who are already separating yourself from general society because you think you're better, you're hosed.

Good luck. You'll need it.

--
BMO

Re:When the shit hits the fan...

[cold fjord]

If you are a "prepper" and think that you can wait out a siege in your bomb shelter or bunker or whatever, you are sadly mistaken. There are more of them/us than there are of you, and if you are especially one of the people who are already separating yourself from general society because you think you're better, you're hosed.

Good luck. You'll need it.

I don't see anything in there about how you will avoid radiation poisoning and die during the crucial 2-3 weeks that radioactive fallout is most dangerous. Any thoughts about that?

Re:When the shit hits the fan...

[AHuxley]

Re "The middle class will try to drive out, but they'll just get stuck in traffic until they run out of gas. Any who reach rural areas and try"
It will be a complex offering of gov/mil/contractor/faith based camps where food, education, medication and 'showers' will try and lure in the bulk of the transport limited urban poor.
Wealthy people with longer range transport will get noticed for having the ready cash to buy more fuel or food in smaller more remote towns. Their final destination of an expensive remote cabin, bunker will be noticed too.
The city areas will then be cleaned out by expert teams of mil/contractors.

Re:When the shit hits the fan...

[cold fjord]

Your basic assumption is that those that prepare are all screwed, and those that don't will do just fine, probably by eating the rich?

You don't see any flaws to that plan? No issues with fallout and radiation sickness?

Re:When the shit hits the fan...

[AHuxley]

If a person is banking on cold war fantasies about survivable, region limited northern hemisphere only nuclear exchange ...
The people with the real political/mil/contractor connections with the 24-48h warning will get to their other homes in places like New Zealand with a set flight plan, ready passport documents. A nice site and lifestyle will be waiting as expected and planned.
The only winners are the out of state contractors, designers, teams that fill the bunkers with equipment and supplies for the low end domestic bunker owners.
The rest of the not so rich domestic bunker owning population will face a race to even get to their bunker and then keep it..
The smarter locals would have seen the owners driving in or recall that "fancy" well stocked site been build.
So the domestic reality of limited "fallout and radiation sickness" will be totally avoided by people who can afford with the connections to get away early.
The cold war dreams about "fallout and radiation sickness" will be tested by bunker filter costs :) The mil idea is to get their selected people out to safe sites quickly :)
That great 99.9998+++ % filter has to work perfectly and be looked after over how many weeks, months for an average domestic bunker owner who is committed to their location :)
So the very rich will be just fine a world away in any limited political war like event :)

Re:When the shit hits the fan...

[SuperKendall]

I don't see anything in there about how you will avoid radiation poisoning and die during the crucial 2-3 weeks that radioactive fallout is most dangerous. Any thoughts about that?

Yes, you seal up the windows and other openings to the house, which cuts out most of the fallout. For whatever gets through you take potassium iodide for a while. It's not that hard.

Re:When the shit hits the fan...

[cold fjord]

Adequate filtration for bunkers is a problem that was solved more than 50 years ago. It isn't that hard, and the technology just keeps getting better.

Re:When the shit hits the fan...

[cold fjord]

Adequate filtration for bunkers is a minor problem that was solved more than 50 years ago. It isn't that hard, and the technology just keeps getting better.

Re:When the shit hits the fan...

[thinkwaitfast]

My car has a range of about 350miles on a tank of gas That's enough to cross the entire state of New Mexico. If I live in ABQ, I could make it anywhere in the state....and there are many many places to hide out in NM. CO, WY, AZ too. TX is probably better, but also much more crowded, but someplace like WY is so desolate I doubt a lot of people would have the idea to go there. Or Montana.

Re:When the shit hits the fan...

[AHuxley]

Yes if you have the wealth of a nation state behind you to pay for gov/mil filters and a way to be evacuated soon.. Top mil staff and officials will be looked after.
Or never face the issues thanks to warnings and an early, safe flight out. For the bunker owner its a supplied, export grade filter that has to work perfectly for years :)
Lost of sales to wealthy people who have bunker dreams or gov/mil staff who have to stay on site and trust in the build quality :)

Re:When the shit hits the fan...

[cold fjord]

It's harder than that. You need to have at least a meter of earth between you and the fallout to have adequate shielding. You can get by with somewhat less steel or concrete, but probably more than you expect. The Potassium iodide only protects you from a specific threat, not general radiation sickness.

Re:When the shit hits the fan...

[AHuxley]

Re Montana. A lot of wealthy people have invested a lot in the northwestern US as escape sites, quality and quantity of private bunker sites... hoping population density, local politics and weather will be factors in creating good place to escape to and then rebuild.
The locals have seen the new funding, expensive builds and know all the interesting locations :)
Out of state contractors been used just makes the build site more interesting.
The main issue would be a clear path out that stays clear as more people with less range just get stuck and block the big main roads for hours.

Re:When the shit hits the fan...

[cold fjord]

Trolling is beneath you A.

Re:When the shit hits the fan...

[thinkwaitfast]

Whatever even has to be very abrupt to clog roads. Most people wouldn't drive in some random direction for 3 hours without an idea of a specific destination. And I don't know much about the eastern US, but I've been to or lived in most of the western states (w of texas) and it's all mostly vacant. From what I recall from a trip to Virginia, it is nonstop city after city. The entire state of wyoming only has 90% pf the population of the city of Boston. The capitol of WY has a population not much larger than my university.

Re:When the shit hits the fan...

[SuperKendall]

It's harder than that. You need to have at least a meter of earth between you and the fallout to have adequate shielding.

Basement.

But you only need that much if you are very, very close. Most fallout is going to be much weaker.

The Potassium iodide only protects you from a specific threat, not general radiation sickness.

It protects you from by far the most likely threat, simply staying in the house away from the outer walls does the rest. You'll get something of an elevated does but hardly enough to matter.

Slashvert for Vice.com?

[Frosty Piss]

Is Vice now a part of Dice Holdings? Anyway, this sort of thing is nothing new, been around forever for toy Paranoid Crowd. Seriously, when civilization falls, most people will not be too much interested in if they have stocked up on enough Crystal champage and Cohebas.

new rules

[Velox_SwiftFox]

"sorry, hoarding food is now a firing squad offense"

Re:new rules

[Grand Facade]

Food is worth more than gold.

Bullets are worth more than food.

If you stockpile stuff you cant tell anyone (and I mean ANYONE) where it is.
And you have to be able to get to it without being seen.

And eventually, you have to come out of it ....

[gweihir]

Alternatively, you can die a bit later than the rest of humanity. Like a rat in a hole. But "preppers" obviously do not have the intelligence to think that far, so they fall for this scam.

Re:And eventually, you have to come out of it ....

[Hartree]

"Alternatively, you can die a bit later than the rest of humanity"

Isn't that already the case on the day you are born?

Humanity shouldn't just give up. but hey, if you personally want to, that's your karma.

If you're in a city, you're largely screwed. If the initial attack doesn't get you, the collapse of the food production and transport systems will.

But, if you are rural and can get through the first few months, much of the fallout hazard decays away, what's left of society responds as best it can and you might make it. Not easily, but hey, being a hunter gatherer isn't all that easy (or even more so, a subsistence farmer without fossil fuel powered machinery).

Humans overestimate their ability to screw mother nature up. We can screw our modern society selves up quite thoroughly. We're a long ways down from our peak arsenals, and On The Beach notwithstanding, I've never been convinced you'd have made humanity extinct even then, let alone the apocalyptic predictions that you'd end life on earth.

The energy from even the worst possible exchange at the height of the arsenals is tiny compared to the flows of energy in nature. It just is delivered extremely quickly and in ways that are very good at killing people.

Even human caused global warming comes under that limitation. Nature's been through global warming that exceeded what we can do and though the species changed it kept on going. It will, however screw up humans in a big way.

Humans are puny. Just try to tear down a mountain range. Nature does it all the time, just slowly. The only reason nature would notice us is that we move so much faster than nature usually does.

Re:And eventually, you have to come out of it ....

[cold fjord]

Alternatively, you can die a bit later than the rest of humanity. Like a rat in a hole. But "preppers" obviously do not have the intelligence to think that far, so they fall for this scam.

The danger from fallout is extremely high initially, but drops off quickly over a couple of weeks. Having the supplies to remain in shelter, and then to begin working to repair and rebuild is quite useful.

Are you disparaging this because you have made no preparation yourself and prefer to die? Or did you simply not think that far ahead?

Since Iran will probably have the bomb in a few years, and already has missiles that can reach Germany, it might be something to think about. Since Russia has already threatened to nuke Denmark's navy perhaps you might be caught in that fallout. If Turkey and Saudi Arabia pursue the bomb after Iran gets one things will be more complicated. Of course Turkey getting the bomb might have repercussions for Germany and its large Turkish population, and the growing number of Islamic refugees. I think you will live in some very interesting times in the coming years.

Supplies can only last so long

[MiKM]

What happens when their food and fuel run out? For their sake, I hope they have some easily-accessible cyanide capsules.

Re:Supplies can only last so long

[Deadstick]

No worries...they'll have LOTS of guns.

Re:Supplies can only last so long

[AHuxley]

Re "What happens when their food and fuel run out?"
A lot of brands will sell wealthy people with remote sites to escape to on complex agricultural supplies and equipment for the years after the provided storable food runs low.
Find some land, pump clean water, get planting, have spare parts, make spare parts, grow food then preserve, store for next year and the long winter. Get ready for the next crop. A dynamic hobby farm with nice people all around.
Such complex efforts will not go unseen by huge numbers of tight knit locals with their own needs and more simple direct ideas :)

Re:Supplies can only last so long

[cold fjord]

How many of those locals will survive radiation poisoning? Do the people in the complex have no armory?

Re:Supplies can only last so long

[AHuxley]

If wealthy bunker owner is out planting crops for next year the smart locals will be out looking for food too :)
As for "survive radiation poisoning" question then the bunker owner would be behind the filter system and looking at the routine maintenance schedule for a while longer.

Stay flexible

[PopeRatzo]

The best plan is to practice yoga, so if civilization collapses you can bend over and kiss your ass goodbye.

It's also more economical than building one of these shelters. And much more practical.

Re:Prepare Now and Die Last

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems like those who are the best prepared will simply be the last to die. Don't know how wise it is to spend so much effort ensuring that one lives as long as possible through the aftermath of an apocalypse.

I can tell you, as someone who has had to weather severe storms and extended power outages, a couple weeks' worth of storable food and water, plus lots of disposable batteries, lots of rechargable batteries and some solar panels you can use to recharge them, plus some sub-micron water filters, plus iodine and chlorine water treatment tablets, plus some concern for heat (wood stove, or what-have-you), plus lots of fuel and portable stoves for cooking, extra warm clothes and blankets, ... things like this have been a godsend for me more than once. Sure it wasn't the end of the world but it definitely could have been much worse. My family was relatively comfortable during bad times. I can't communicate to you the satisfaction I got from knowing that my decisions facilitated that.

A true doomsday event, like a massive comet hitting the earth and sterilizing it? Yeah that's a bit much for anyone, even the wealthy. But most people can and should prepare for hard times. I know I am glad I did.

and the buyers are:

[raind]

http://news.slashdot.org/story/15/10/11/162217/2016-election-cycle-led-by-billionaire-donors

The wealthy and the telephone sanitizers

[Maow]

It makes it tempting to fake an apocalypse, just to get the obscenely wealthy and the telephone sanitizers to disappear into their shelters, which then can be sealed from outside so that the world can continue on fine without them.

Since we all have our own phones now, I don't foresee a comeback for the sanitizers, so this won't be at all similar to the Douglas Adams (?) story.

Unless the phone-borne virus is in non-updated Android phones?

*scary music*

echoes of a dark past . . .

[swell]

Buyers should first consider the fate of Prince Prospero who hoped to avoid the death that awaited all the common people. You may have seen the movie "The Masque of the Red Death" starring Vincent Price. Or you may wish to read the very short story written by E. A. Poe in 1842 ... but with roots in the distant past:
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hy...

The bribe economy

[WinstonWolfIT]

Getting the lost spot in a disaster shelter will work about as well as bribing yourself onto a lifeboat on the Titanic. Only a bigger gun wins when the shit hits the fan.

Re:Prepare Now and Die Last

[I'm New Around Here]

Most of that description describes my childhood. We lived on a farm, so had the food stored. We had about 10,000 quarts of canned vegetables, a freezer full of meat that either we raised or was locally raised, wood stoves in two rooms, gas range in the kitchen with a full gas tank in the front yard, hurricane lanterns and candles for light, and batteries for the radio. Water was no problem, since in the winter it was all over the ground just waiting to be collected. In the summer we would fill a few 5-gallon buckets whenever the weather looked bad. And since our well water was very clean, we didn't have to worry about the iodine tablets. We even had fresh milk, since we could walk across the road and buy a pitcher of it from the dairy farmer.

This got us through the blizzards each winter, with the normal 2 weeks with no power, and the random 1 week most summers from thunderstorms. At the time, I just considered it normal living.

Better Deal

[frovingslosh]

He wants $35,000 for a reserved space in one of his luxury shelters? Heck, for only $24,999 I'll reserve a space for you in one of my four star luxury shelters. We don't even tell anyone where they are until the complete breakdown of civilization, so that the armed thugs don't come and impose their selves on you. But we'll somehow contact you after the complete fall of civilization and take you to your closest luxury four star shelter to sit out the fall of mankind. Note: Minor local inconveniences do not qualify as end of civilization events You can only claim your reserved space in our deluxe four start shelters after the complete collapse of the court system. Send your money now.

cheap

[Tom]

If you're a billionaire, then 35k is not even worth discussing, even the $3 mio. for an actual space is a minor expense. Easily comparable to what we normal people pay for, say, car insurance. So it's really just that: An "just in case" expense.

Re:cheap

[thinkwaitfast]

Likewise, deciding what 536 people do with their money is not worth discussing.

the mineshaft gap....

[drolli]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re:what's the point...

[thinkwaitfast]

What's wrong with farming? I grew a sizeable portion of my food this year with not much work.

Frequent Locations

[CanadianMacFan]

So the author had to hand over his iPhone in order not to see how to get to the shelter. I wonder if they thought to turn off the frequent locations settings which tells you where you've been because a place out in the middle of nowhere is going to stick out. Once you know where it is then using satellite maps it isn't that hard to find a way there.

Fallout

[Blade]

The guy selling these spaces has played far too much Fallout - the people buying them haven't played anywhere near enough.

DLC?

[dlingman]

And I thought the Pipboy edition of Fallout 4 was bad. (and yes, I ordered that)

Now you can get the vault dweller edition? Does it come with special DLC with it as well?

Enhancement to the shelter

[cristiroma]

Do not forget to add a sensor tower to the shelter, and to regularly send someone to clean it

Re:Enhancement to the shelter

[werepants]

Nice reference. But: why the hell didn't they install an automated wiper on the silos? It sounds like maybe 'cleaning' was intended all along as a population control and "release valve" for the silo, but still it's strange that such a possibility never occurred to the silo occupants.

Pure Scam

[davesays]

After a societal collapse, who will enforce my right to enter the shelter? What possible motivation would there be for him to let anyone in?

Re:what's the point...

[tehcyder]

What's wrong with farming? I grew a sizeable portion of my food this year with not much work.

It rather depends on the nature of the apocalypse. If everything is contaminated with radioactive fallout, you're not going to want to eat your crops, even if they survive.

If a series of mega volcanoes fills the sky with ash and no sunlight gets through, you're going to have trouble growing anything much. Similarly if a mega tsunami floods half the land.

If an asteroid wipes out half the planet, who knows?

And with the ever-popular zombie apocalypse, they'll get you while you're out ploughing and sowing.

Re:former government facility

[msi]

Woosh....

Hardly news ... from the early 1980s

[RockDoctor]

When we had cruise missiles bases foist upon us by our government in the 1980s (putting us in the overlapping blast zones of two megatonne multiple-hit target sites, a local entrepreneur started making and selling bomb shelters. He also made (and leased) plastic pot plants for shop displays and that sort of thing.

Some of his - Tom Butler - shelters were basic, and some relatively luxurious. Fools and their money are always prime targets for separation.