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University Reprimands Professor For Assigning Cheaper Textbook (slate.com)
schwit1 writes: California State University at Fullerton brought a grievance against associate professor Alain Bourget recently. It wasn't for poor results or questionable conduct — it happened because Bourget refused to assign a $180 textbook for his introductory linear algebra and differential equations course, instead using one that cost $75 and supplementing it with free online materials. "Bourget maintains that his choices are just as effective educationally and much less expensive, so he should have the right to use them. But the university says that it makes sense for courses that have multiple sections to all use the same textbooks. Both Bourget and the university say their positions are based on principles of academic freedom."
The Fullerton text in question is Differential Equations and Linear Algebra, published by Pearson with a suggested price of $196, but available at the Fullerton bookstore for $180 (used editions for much less). The authors are Stephen W. Goode and Scott A. Annin, the chair and vice chair, respectively, of the mathematics department at Fullerton.
Now it all makes sense.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Quote from the article:
"Sensitive to the idea that the university could be promoting the book because its authors are faculty members ....."
Yeah, that's what I thought.
That was ... incoherent. What?
Whomever is above Dr. Bourget is clearly getting a kickback from the publisher and is mandating the same textbook to be used in order to boost profit.
I've worked at a bunch of different universities in California and making students use the same textbook across sections is definitely not standard behavior. If anything, departments don't want to have to do that work and encourage teachers to figure it out for themselves.
The university should be much more concerned about the financial motivations of those in administrative positions over Dr. Bourget.
It seems that some academics want to be more free than others.
Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
I was a professor at a major engineering school, and I got tired of the Institute forcing me to do everything in their prescribed bureaucratic way. Every decision was designed to line someone's pocket. Which textbooks to use, which equipment was required for labs, and even the labs were designed to use sole-source parts from particular vendors (Altera PLDs, for example).
There is no academic freedom in academia. None whatsoever. So, I quit. I started my own company and have never been happier.
Yeah sure, paper books priced extremely high make total sense in 2015. Tenure is definitely the issue hete.
Why in God's name would a student enroll in two different sections of the same class?
So you'd rather that the students be forced to buy the more expensive book (which sends money into the pockets of his bosses) and that they be allowed to fire him for saving his students about $105 each, because preventing such actions would somehow make things less expensive for the students.
Nah.
Other courses probably use a DIFFERENT overpriced text book.
$180? Are they fucking insane? That's worse than pharmaceutical prices. At least cancer miracle drugs have the excuse that they have to go through expensive FDA trials and most of them don't make it on the market.
This is not a new subject. The treatment is probably not original. The "R&D cost" is probably no worse than a similar book that's not associated with college.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
If other course as the university use the more expensive text book, then fuck this guy.
What? Why would anyone take linear algebra again? Linear algebra is generally one course, not multiple.
Any (former) student will tell you that you never buy the textbook until the prof tells you whether you need it or not. Heck, sometimes they'll even tell you that you can use an earlier revision which will be significantly cheaper.
My macro-econ book was paperback about 3/4" thick and cost $150. You could only sell it back for about $35 because the book itself was valued at $50 and the online code for the homework was $100. How about that for a 100-level course. At least linear algebra is like a 300-level course.
FTFA
Instead, he used two textbooks, one of which cost about $75 and other of which consists of free online materials.
So there's no other "textbook".
I believe that the GP misunderstood the summary's statement of "courses with multiple sections" to mean "multi-semester courses," which I do not believe is the case here -- certainly not for an introductory linear algebra course. Multiple sections means that there are multiple sessions of the exact same class going on at the same time.
As a former professor (in mathematics, even!), I would agree with the initial sentiment. The university should make sure that courses taught are consistent. This may even affect their accreditation. Who is this associate professor to break the uniformity of the students' education?
However, if you read the article, you'll see that the authors of the department-assigned text are the chair and vice-chair of the department. Which is largely unethical in my opinion. (But don't get me started on ethics and the textbook industry...)
Wait what? Who the fuck modded this up: it makes no sense.
The whole point about tenure is giving real genuine academic freedom to professors to allow them to do unpopular things that are none the less right. It's generally considered a worthwhile tradeoff. Some go off the rails and others use it for good.
This is precisely an example of someone using it for good. Tenure allows him to say a huge "fuck you" to the book authors/senior management (oh lookee they're the same people!) and not fleece his students.
This is tenure working precisely as it should.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
What is going on is that the same class, say Math 101, is being taught by multiple different teachers, most likely at different times of the day/week. Typically they are designated Math 101a, Math 101b, Math 101c, etc. This lets people that want to take Math101 take it even if Physics 101 happens to be taught at the same time as Math101a - you just take Math 101b.
The OTHER teachers - teaching the exact same class Math 101a and Math 101b, tell students to buy the $185 textbook. But he teaches Math 101c and tells his students to buy the $75 book.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
that universities are at best, a money-hungry business, at worst, a cult designed to create a two-tier society where even the simplest jobs require a university degree.
During the early 1990's, math textbooks started requiring a graphing calculator. Not just any graphing calculator, but a specific model of the Texas Instruments graphing calculator. If you had a different model or brand, you were on your own as the instructors didn't have time to figure out the four or five other graphing calculators in the classroom. Math textbook and graphing calculator cost $200, which was twice the cost of going full time to the community college at the time.
I went from owning an HP calculator that did Reverse Polish Notation to several models of the TI graphing calculator. I still have them today. Never got around to owning an HP calculator that could take cartridges, say, Missile Command, to extend its functionality. That particular calculator cost $500 or so. More appropriate for the engineering crowd at the university.
Fortunately, I was very much old school towards learning mathematics. When I showed up for an exam without my graphing calculator, I was able to sketch the graph by hand. Other students who forgot their graphing calculator weren't so lucky, as they couldn't graph their way out of a paper bag. I've known several students who dropped out of school because they couldn't afford the latest and greatest calculator for the newest math textbook. The financial aid office came up with a program to help students with buying calculators.
Yes, that is a dilemma.
When I went to uni the first course in statistics required one book at around $200. However the profs had agreed to use the same book in the three follow-up statistics courses as well. So if you were going for a bachelor in statistics, you just bought that one book for all your statistics courses.
Similar story in physics, at least for the first two-three courses. The math courses were a bit more fractured for some reason, though in two of the courses the textbook was written by the prof and provided free as PDF. I got them printed and bound at the uni press for like $15 each.
However my book expenses was nothing compared to what they had to put up with in other areas, such as psychology or pedagogy. They had to buy $200 books just for a chapter or two.
The professor is teaching one section of a class where different sections are taught by different faculty. As all the students - regardless of which section they are enrolled in - are enrolled in the same course, they should all be studying the same material. While it is not impossible to ensure that this happens when different sections use different texts, it is a lot easier to ensure that this happens when everyone does use the same text.
I say the professor should have brought up his concerns with the text book earlier; although working in academia I suspect he may have himself been assigned to teach that section without enough time to do so.
In other words, there is blame to go around.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
I learned to not buy the textbook before the first day of class. Sometimes the prof would say, "The required textbook sucks. Go to Barnes and Noble and buy XYZ instead. It's better and costs 1/4 as much.
Fortunately they didn't get fired for it. But that was 15+ years ago, when the book for an introductory course was $50, or $100 for a 300 or 400 level course. Not to mention $5000/yr tuition (which I paid in cash by driving tow trucks on weekends).
Amazing what's happened since the government "Made College Affordable".
Jesus H. Christ. Are you employed by the university and shilling? The professor who is choosing to use a less expensive textbook is one of the good guys. $200 for a textbook on linear algebra and differential equations is a rip-off beyond belief. The material in the book hasn't changed in decades if not centuries and, even if it did, the new material would likely be the purview of a graduate-level course.
What the professor should have done is allow students to use *any* textbook(s) on differential equations and linear algebra and structure his course to be textbook agnostic.
If the university gets its way, I hope the students torrent the hell of that book and deprive the rotten authors of their blood money.
....and in the comments section it mentions that the department started using this book in 1989, 15 years before the author became department chair.
Also, it mentions that the course-approved book rents for much less than the rebel-chosen book.
So obviously there's more to the story than the simple venal corruption that's implied.
- it seems a conflict of interest when a department is *requiring* the use of a book from which the department head(s) directly profit; then again, if my department is using book X, and we can "get" as a professor the author of said book, I'd do it for sure.
- it also seems pretty reasonable that a department would agree to teach from a consistent set of books, especially for lower-level courses, so as to provide a consistent contextual base for all students in later classes; do they do so in other departments?
I don't have any answers to resolve this, frankly.
-Styopa
(But don't get me started on ethics and the textbook industry...)
...
The professor has a solid ethics case against the school fot a clear conflict of interest case. The reprimand could get the school in serious legal trouble.
The truth shall set you free!
At my college they used a new text book for algebra every year.
Why? I asked, it's the same math nothing has changed over that year.
You know why.
$
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Seriously - there's no current events that impact how we do linear algebra and diff equations, nor have the concepts changed in hundreds of years. So why the hell aren't we using public domain textbooks?! Well, we all know why, but how do we go about changing the money grab?
Tenure => academic freedom is true in the world where speed limit => maximum speed people drive their cars.
They still do a job, just like everyone else.
So... what happens whey the tenure runs out?
A professor assigning a textbook that he or she wrote happens fairly often as people tend to write texts for courses that they teach often, and tend to write texts when they are not happy with what options are already out there, and they generally think that they cover things in the best way possible, since they wrote it. Often a text evolves from course notes and is shopped around to various publishers, one of which is happy to accept it and polish it up and charge extortionate prices for it. If it gets adopted on its own merits at other institutions, great for the publisher and author.
But there is an obvious conflict of interest when a faculty member requires a text that he or she wrote for a course at the home institution, as the author/instructor gets some of the money (not much, though, even for a $180 text, I'm afraid.) At a normal university with standards and ethics, there generally is a mechanism for making textbook adoption decisions revenue-neutral for the instructor. I know of places where the part of the proceeds from the sale at the home institution of the author is sent directly from the publisher to something like the department colloquium fund, or sometimes if the publisher can't cope with the complexity, the author just donates the apportioned proceeds from sales at the home institution to a student support fund or tutoring lab or something like that.
Apparently, in this department, there is no such mechanism for the revenue (or the authors are not worried about the conflict of interest) and the authors apparently do get money from the text being required at their own institution. It is easy to see how another faculty member, now tenured, can feel that it is unfair for the text to be required, if the text isn't that great (most aren't) and if the money is going to his or her department members despite the fact that it is not the best value book. When the people profiting in question are part of the department administration (chair, assistant chair) that makes resistance more difficult, as department staff can retaliate in various obvious and subtle ways and there can be pressure to comply with unethical practices.
At a normal university, there would be conflict-of-interest policies that apply and would probably prevent a department from forming a policy to require a course purchase which benefits a faculty member financially. At Cal State Fullerton, either there aren't any strong policies, or they are being ignored, apparently. The instructor who is not following this unethical policy does have tenure (his wife is also tenured in the same department) so though he can't be readily dismissed or denied tenure, but still because the people who are financially impacted by this make decisions which can affect him and his wife, this is big headache.
There has been support from faculty in other departments which is a good sign but the fact that it got this far is one sign of an unhappy dysfunctional math department. There are hundreds of commodity linear algebra and differential equations textbooks out there, with lots of different approaches. Most of them are terrible, but there are enough good ones that this kerfluffle seems pretty ridiculous.
It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw.
While 75 dollars is a significant savings over 180, why stop there? I just did a search on "linear algebra" on Google Shopping, and I can see three books from Dover Publications in there, with a combined cost of $33.18. While I'm sure they're terrible at explaining linear algebra to someone who doesn't already know linear algebra, I'm equally sure that the 75 and 180 dollar versions are terrible as well. I'd rather have three concise terrible math books books plus 40-150 dollars than one really heavy terrible math book.
And the problem is? Students that can choose between the classes can now get to chose based on book price as well. He will have more students register for his calss than the others.
You do know that Teacher A and Teacher B who both teach the same Class A, will teach it differently, right????
Also, if this was a book that could be used multiple semesters, don't kid yourself - they always say that and then the next semester they magically have a new revision that you have to buy regardless (oh but you can trade in your current one and get half off the new revision!)
(But don't get me started on ethics and the textbook industry...)
There's ethic in the textbook industry?! Since when?!
"Don't meddle in the affairs of a patent dragon, for thou art tasty and good with ketchup." ~ohcrapitssteve
This has been going on for a long time. Around 15 years ago, I bought a $180 book, which was nothing more than a comb-bound Numerical Linear Algebra notebook of around 150 pages. The professor on campus wrote the text but forgot to put whitespace in the formatting so all formulas and examples were run inline with the text. Anyway, after slogging through that horrible tomb all semester, I went to the Buy Back on campus and was offered $1.00, yeah, 100 pennies. Same book (same printing, same edition) was used the next semester. I kept the book and burned it. I kept many other campus books (the algebra book was the only one I burned). Now, when the University calls me or sends me any correspondence in the mail, asking for money, I tell them a big fat NO! AND I send their correspondence back to them with nothing in the envelope, of course, and only the Business Reply type of mail, so they have to pay for postage, and tell them another big fat NO! And they still ask for money and it's a state run school that gets funding from the state! Cui Bono for sure. Somebody has some 'splaining to do!
Yes, remember, all the ills in the world can be traced back to not being able to fire someone for no reason at all...
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
So you need a $180 book for introductory differential equation and linear algebra? Is learning mathematics a privilege? The heck with it.
I'd bootleg an electronic copy if I were to forced to use it as a student.
Anecdote: When I studied those subjects (not crammed into one book) I loaned Prof. Gilbert Strang's Linear Algebra and Its Applications and bought a dirt-cheap 2nd-hand copy of Prof. Vladimir I. Arnold's Ordinary Differential Equations. The monetary cost was negligible and I was massively satisfied with their quality. The "curriculum" course books were mostly used for the exercises only so I just copied the exercises from someone else's book. The lectures themselves didn't require textbooks at all -- the lecturer hardly referred to the books during the lecture. It was all self-contained.
If you don't have the latest edition, you're really missing out on all the latest fundamental mathematics discovered in the last 12 months..
"At least cancer miracle drugs have the excuse that they have to go through expensive FDA trials and most of them don't make it on the market."
Isn't $180 is kind of a low-ball bribe for the FDA to certify a 'miracle drug'?
Political correctness is really just herd psychology pushed by insecure people who desperately seek social conformity.
Most of my EE books were in the $150+ range. And that was nearly 30 years ago. $170 for a 197 page E&M book. Yep, nearly a buck a page!
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
This really is plain insanity. The cost of a university education is well out of control, and textbooks aren't helping.
While I agree that having the same coursebook over a whole section (i.e. All Math 101 classes use the same book, which hopefully Math 201 also use..) I do believe that our educators should have a hand in which textbook is selected. Unless the group deciding what textbook is used, teach from said textbook, they need to take a backseat and listen to the people on the front lines. Cost is one valid factor when deciding what to choose. Education like this is as much a business as it is an academic exercise. When your consumers can't afford the product you sell, you have fewer consumers.
Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
Maybe if the education system here took their heads out of their asses, it would not matter which text book was used for a particular subject. As long as the student learns the base material on how to resolve the questions asked of them during their exams, the book should be irrelevant.
They are not supposed to be teaching kids how to parrot a book to pass a test.
The problem is that the text book and testing industry have such an incestuous relationship, and their collective hands are so far up the asses of those educational leadership, that it is too lucrative not to force students to buy expensive books that are useless after a single year. Hey, we changed 2 words in this math book which has 200 year old source material, lets make every student purchase a new book instead of used.
It's total bullshit, it is not like the text book industry is coming up with original content, rather they are just reusing what has been around for 1000's of years (depending on the subject of course).
I came, I conquered, I coredumped
Schools should be teaching concepts and critical thinking, rather than how to perform to the conditions of a particular book. As long as this teacher's students are actually learning the material, there is no need for the university to enforce conformity among the various sections.
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds..." - Emerson
Yeah, it seems insanely low. Given the monopoly power of the schools — they control, which books can be used — they could ask for your first-born child as well.
The Big Ed's shenanigans are far worse than those of the regularly-condemned Big Oil and Big Pharma, for example, and they are long overdue for some Congressional scrutiny.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
When I started college nearly all textbooks were created by the teachers giving the course, we had a college bookshop with hundreds upon hundreds of locally printed course material. Slowly they were transforming to books while I was there.
The material always became worse, no exceptions.
Create a "Credit Union" version of the University - open sourced books, leverage videos, implement real world methodologies into projects, and foster ethical and professional behavior across all disciplines. Drive to create a true non-profit organization centered on delivering actual education and value back to the middle class students who need that accredited degree to get their foot int he door professionally.
Our President and business leaders talks a good game about promoting STEM and education in this country, but won't do anything to overhaul the terrible system that is our college system. Make it affordable, practical, and worthwhile.
Of course, the same could be said about our health care system, too.
Textbools in engineering related classes or often over $200
$180? Are they fucking insane? That's worse than pharmaceutical prices.
Student loans. Easy money. The student will pay whatever because the loan covers it and the student is incapable of thinking of how exponential interest will harm him in the long run. It's the same principle that drives the pharmaceutical industry. How do you think they get to a $65,000/dose cancer treatment? "Don't worry your insurance will cover it".
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Let's leave aside the pricing of the books for a moment since that is something for students (and teachers) to complain about to the institution (and potentially to the state since this is a state university). As far as actually just swapping out the assigned book for another, remember that this guy is an employee. He needs to do what the employer pays him to do (which unfortunately seems to be to pimp the chair and vice chair's overpriced book). Can you imagine if a construction worker on say a bridge unilaterally switched out parts for cheaper ones? Yeah, you don't do that. This guy should go through channels. What he is doing is simple insubordination and should be dealt with accordingly.
The reprimand could get the school in serious legal trouble.
Probably, but even if you have a legal case against your employer, bringing up a that case creates a relationship between you where they will look for the first opportunity to get rid of you, or make your life so miserable that you quit voluntarily.
You can only bring up a case like that if you intent to look for a job elsewhere anyway.
I am OK with DRM on Tailor Swift songs and proprietory word processors. But copyrighted mathematics? Seriously? Claiming exclusive right to facts and laws of nature?
I see many comments saying something along the lines of department chairs / professors "lining their pockets" by requiring books that they wrote.
While it very well may be an ego thing, it is definitely NOT a money thing. My wife has written many collegiate level textbooks and they are used at many different schools. She netted a whopping $600 in royalties for 2014. The authors are not getting rich on sales of textbooks. Their salaries dwarf what they earn for publications.
Next conspiracy theory ...
Welcome to the real world.
While I'd like to support the guy that's trying to save his students some money, his colleague & supporter Hassan is nuts, and making his position sound irrational: "If the university thinks you are good enough to teach the course, they should let you pick the materials," he said.
A world full of "We can do whatever the hell we want", is not a place I'd want to live. I would be furious if semesters 1, 2 & 3 of a course each required a DIFFERENT BOOK, instead of using the same one. Perhaps all three books having been written by each professor... Perhaps all three costing $180 a piece!
While the $75 book sounds like a better deal than the $180 book, it isn't so good for students that continue into the next course, under a different professor, and thus still need to buy that $180 book, in addition to that previous $75 down the drain.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Larson: $279
http://www.amazon.com/Elementa...
Poole: $274
http://www.amazon.com/Linear-A...
Williams: $206
http://www.amazon.com/Algebra-...
By contrast:
Strang: $66
(Intro to Linear Algebra, 4e, 2009)
http://www.amazon.com/Introduc...
But also:
Strang: $322
(Linear Algebra and its Applications, 4e, 2005)
http://www.amazon.com/Linear-A...
Of course what makes this racket even worse, there's been nothing new in the field of Linear Algebra for over 100 years. A textbook written in 1915 would be just as usable as one written today.
I better go back and study the differential equations before I loose my degree. The changes must be tremendous if new expensive books are necessary to teach the subject.
"How do you think they get to a $65,000/dose cancer treatment? "Don't worry your insurance will cover it"."
That's disingenuous. Are you sure that $65000/dose price doesn't include not only the cost of research/trials/fda approval of THIS particular drug but also the countless other drugs that didn't live up to expectations?
My mother-in-law takes a fairly new med for her leukemia -- it's about $10,000 for 14 days and has been very effective. That drug would have never made it to market if "big pharma" didn't expect to turn a profit (including cover OTHER research projects). This is *NOT* a bad thing. In about another decade or so the cost will dramatically come down.
I'm not saying that this is the BEST model for research. What I'm saying it is a good and effective model.
But undergraduate mathematics is essentailly set-in-stone. There isn't much new being added to undergrad math since all of the new stuff is a function of graduate work on the advancement of math. Stuff at this level isn't changing so the only changes to the textbooks that actually make sense are those that make learning the curriculum easier, but even that is subject to both interpretation and to the particular way that a given student learns. That's also why there's a teacher there, because otherwise subjects like mathematics at this level could be learned through self-study, and sometimes that human guidance helps clarify things when the book doesn't provide the answers in a way that students understand.
Macroeconomics, while partially math-based, is also a lot of the discussion of evolving schools of thought. It's not settled, and the to and fro of collective opinion on what functions best or what model represents reality best is always being debated, and crosses into politics at times, and new Economic theories that impact undergrad studies appear at least a little more often than new undergrad math concepts.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
Here in Canada, there is a law that limits loans based on the what percentage of my income the payments would end up being. I can't help but think a lot of this madness would end if the maximum student loan was based on what is affordable based on the expected income of someone graduating with the degree in question.
If he brought a book in that was directly in conflict with the chair's book, I'd say he was already there.
They had the assigned textbook, and a list of suggested textbooks. Either way, the instructor assigned their own problems, usually a mix from the instructor's manual and of their own creation. In the case of readings, they gave the topic and (in the case of the assigned textbook) section numbers for the current and prior editions. The student was by no means obligated to buy the assigned or recommended textbooks. They could use a book of their own choosing, online resources, or simply rely upon lectures.
University is different from primary or secondary school. While students are expected to meet certain requirements for learning, learning is mostly the responsibility of the student.
While I can understand the argument that a common textbook makes it easier to teach the same material to multiple sections, it's not necessary if the teacher or professor covers all the necessary material.
While I was enrolled as an engineer, one math professor decided he didn't like the textbook being used to teach the course. It was wordy, confusing, and generally not well-written. So, he embarked to write his own book that would be much easier to utilize while teaching calculus courses. He wrote up all of his lecture notes in textbook-like form for easy compilation later, and passed them out to his students for free with each lecture. His notes were very easy to comprehend and matched up with his classes very well. Everyone enjoyed having him as a professor because he actually cared that his students understood the material better.
In his case, sure there was some future financial gain in it for him. (After he found a way to get everything published.) But, it was more about his ability to teach the students effectively. Other professors didn't care that he used his own teaching method or didn't use the standard textbook for his courses. And we all turned out just fine because he still taught all of the material, just in his own way.
BR I guess my point is this: let the teachers choose their own methods, as long as they teach the students the required material. Oftentimes, this can result in greater effectiveness, as it's more comfortable for the person doing the teaching. And that, in turn, usually translates into better learning of the material by the persons being taught. Don't just railroad everyone into doing the same thing. That's how we get all of this common core and standardized testing BS that doesn't really do anything for the teachers or the students.
Bite my shiny metal ass!
Tenure for university professors does not run out. In most systems, you get a contract for 3-5 years on a probationary period as an Assistant Professor. If they like you, they promote you to Associate Professor and give you tenure. Can't get laid off, can't be fired without doing something illegal or blatantly disregarding your job. The best the University can do is pile on additional service (hey, we signed you up to attend the homecoming budget committee meetings for the department) in hopes that you give up and quit.
When the tenure runs out they become a professor emeritus.
It's a common misconception that drugs are expensive because of R&D, but actually, the lion's share of Big Pharma's budget is spent on advertising.
http://www.randalolson.com/2015/03/01/design-critique-putting-big-pharma-spending-in-perspective/
http://www.fiercepharma.com/story/new-numbers-back-meme-pharma-does-spend-more-marketing-rd/2014-11-06
As an part time adjunct, I am free to choose what book I want to use as long as I agree to use it for three years. Having said that, I always consider the cost of a book when I am looking for one to use for a class. I am actually working on a curriculum for a course I teach to forgo text books entirely. Instead I would use readily available documents for source material.
But don't get me started on ethics and the textbook industry...
Actually, since you are a former university(?) math professor; I'd love to get you started on ethics and the textbook industry, and hear your take on it.
I'm sorry, but your opinion seems to be wrong.
" Given the monopoly power of the schools...they could ask for your first-born child as well."
That's what tuition is for. Textbooks are just a side racket.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
And the problem is?
The book that Math 101a and 101b are using are co-written by the math department chair and vice-chair. The Math101c book is not.
If they are maths students, they should be capable of thinking of it.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
You said nothing that counters what I said. Pushing new medications in to adoption isn't cheap. How is that not PART of getting meds to market? How useful would it be if a new med came out but wasn't really adopted?
The goal of "big pharma" is to make money. They do that by providing effective medications and push the line of new and greater quality treatments. If you remove their ability to make money you will remove them from making new and greater quality treatments. This isn't complicated and making money isn't 'evil' by nature.
$180? Are they fucking insane?
The people reprimanding him are the people who chose the $180 textbook, and they also happen to be the authors of that overpriced textbook.
So no, it definitely not that they're insane... Unethical, corrupt and greedy, but not insane.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
They don't.
My friend and I are both taking the class. We have an expectation of a shared experience, where we can compare notes on the material and assignments.
There are 25 different scheduling a of this class so that it is easy to take with classes offered less frequently.
One of the twenty five classes is different and those students may be getting a different experience than they expected.
It's a common misconception that drugs are expensive because of R&D, but actually, the lion's share of Big Pharma's budget is spent on advertising.
http://www.randalolson.com/2015/03/01/design-critique-putting-big-pharma-spending-in-perspective/
http://www.fiercepharma.com/story/new-numbers-back-meme-pharma-does-spend-more-marketing-rd/2014-11-06
Advertising ensures more people are buying the drug, therefor lowering the price per person while increasing profit. If advertising wasn't doing this, they wouldn't be advertising.
There are often good reasons to choose a single text for all sections of a large course.
At the CC I teach at, we offer something in the neighborhood of 50 sections of college algebra each semester. We previously had *3* textbooks for this class (depending if the student is taking the class online, computer-based, or traditional lecture format). It was a nightmare, for reasons including (but not limited to):
1. Students buying the wrong book for their "section".
2. Students dropping/failing the class and retaking it the next semester, only to find out the only time they could take the class is a section that requires a different textbook (about 1/3 of students don't pass it the first time)
3. Faculty side: using multiple books that are on unsynced "edition cycles" (don't get me started on that!) meant that we had a new College Algebra book every year, so we were constantly revising notes/lectures/homework to reflect the changed book.
We're now down to basically one book (some students must purchase software to go with if their section requires it) and its still a mess, but not nearly as bad.
So, while its noble to try to lower the costs (I know at our institution this is a big priority among faculty and administration) sometimes its just better for everyone if they use the same book. The sad thing is that this isn't always the cheapest book, especially when the books are so nearly comparable.
Maybe if the education system here took their heads out of their asses, it would not matter which text book was used for a particular subject.
It seems to matter very much to the people who chose the book for the course because they also literally wrote the book. So they probably think it's the best and they get a portion of every sale.
The problem is that the text book and testing industry have such an incestuous relationship
Quite incestuous indeed, since they wrote the book and then picked the book that they wrote.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
The Sharp had one thing none of the others (at that time -- early 80's) did. Playback.
You entered in up to 50 "button pushes" of whatever, and hit =. To check you entered it all, you hit PB (playback) and you could then scroll through every bit of it. It also had 6 memory locations you could draw from. The others in its price range had 2.
No other calculator came close (at that time), even at 3 times the money. [I guess they are up to 142 steps now.]
Fond, fond memories of that product. From sharp minds indeed. I didn't go out of my way to convince my felow 'geers about its virtues...
I come here for the love
I had a professor who wrote his own textbook and as part of the proof-reading and editing, all we had to do was pay the printing costs at the local Kinko's.
Although, Kinko's did charge a bit for the printing but is was also about $30.
Such a brazen conflict of interest should threaten accreditation and be much more significant problem than merely using a different textbook.
There were a few times that I had multi semester courses and at the start of the new year, we had to buy the latest and greatest edition - at $200 a pop.
And what kills me is that at the undergraduate level where there hasn't been much if any discoveries in the last century, using anything other than a $15 Dover edition of a classic textbook is just unethical.
The Dover edition of calculus and differential equations are perfect. Same goes for undergrad chemistry and physics.
Don't get me started on the highway robbery of business books!
Computer science?! How about O'Reilly books at the undergrad level - and internet sources because online will have the latest. Textbooks are 10 years out of date.
1) as is common, the SAME course is taught at different times, on different days, by different teachers
This allows the students choice, which I think maybe once or twice has been mentioned as good on slashdot
you have a big exam on wensday another course, you can take that days math course on Fri instead of wensday
obviously, you need consistency across the different sections
2) Text book prices are out of control and the ethics of the professors are
however, aside from professors, who is qualified to write a textbook ?
this has been going on forever; in 1975, the author of my Russian language 101 noted in the preface that he thanked his students for putting up with drafts....
seriously: who else knows the technical material and the pedagogy ?
As a (former) student, I never had a college level math class that didn't require the text book. Even more notably, it almost always had to be the new one, because they rearrange and change the problems assigned as homework.
Brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.
Student loans. Easy money. The student will pay whatever because the loan covers it and the student is incapable of thinking of how exponential interest will harm him in the long run.
This is why we don't teach critical thinking in public schools. Without critical thinking, we can suck them into college prices w/o thinking about the reward/return ratio.
And the problem is?
The problem is that the expensive book is written by the chair and vice chair of the mathematics department.
A linear algebra "text" that consisted of a dozen iPython notebooks would be WAY more informative to a student than any paper textbook. The ability to change parameters in the examples and graphically see how matrices transform would be the way I would want to see the course materials.
LOL, expected income. It should all be based on what a fry cook make. Half the students end up making the same fry cook money anyway.
The other half is unemployable.
Hah. If that were true then all mathematicians would be millionaires!
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Anyone want to wager when textbooks will hit $1,000?
If only 1 million people in the next 20 years worldwide need a single 14 day course, that's 10,000,000,000 to them.
They wouldn't have so much cost from failed attempts if they would actually give up on them when the early results are disappointing rather than trying to find a way to game the stats to show some tiny sliver of efficacy.
As a former university and tech school mathematics instructor, I'm happy to throw in my take on it.
Most textbooks are absolutely dull, and are full of extremely contrived examples designed to "show how useful the subject is". Many subjects are extremely useful, but perhaps to only certain fields, so it's sometimes difficult to explain the utility to a first undergraduate course in the subject. This makes many students bored because they're smart enough to realize they're essentially being lied to -- the examples are obviously contrived and lame. Furthermore, it pushes this idea that unless there's a "practical way to make money" on the subject, it's worthless, which is absolutely not true. We should encourage philosophical thought for its own sake, and recognize that such thought sometimes leads to great discoveries long term, even if we don't know how its useful right this minute.
So that being said, the textbook industry knows Education is a buzz word in politics. They know getting Good Jobs (TM) is another buzzword. So they rewrite the textbooks every year now. The actual content doesn't change (or at least not for the best; I think they often just remove content!), they just swap chapters around, and most importantly, tailor the contrived examples to the buzzword industry of the year. They can then go around convincing politicians, school districts, and universities that their books "prepare students to enter the workforce" and you absolutely need the latest edition or your students won't have the advantage others' do. It's kind of a bullying -- they make the professors feel bad, and if they manage to stand up, then they go to the school board or university administration to get their book in.
To convince people of the book, they spam free copies of the book to everyone. They hand out swag at conferences, reminding them of how awesome they are for publishing. They get name recognition.
Professors then start to feel bad that maybe my students are not receiving the same advantage as everyone else, let me use what they all use. Going through graduate school, I had my share of completely awful textbooks for courses. Couldn't learn a damn thing from them. We asked the professor about it (several different ones for different classes) and the response was almost always "this is the standard textbook nationwide on this topic".
Having a standard breeds mediocrity in some sense. To me, University is meant to open your mind to new ideas. I think they should be a little different between semesters and professors. Shake it up. Cover a few new topics, especially if the students seem interested. Throw out a few topics because maybe there's little interest. Why not tailor it to what the students want, rather than university and accreditation boards? I know, losing accreditation would be bad, but that's exactly my point -- the system has damaged what it means to have a university education. You just go through an assembly line, rather than being encouraged to explore your interested. Classes like linear algebra are amazingly useful, but (1) not every applied field in the world needs it, so I can see some instances where you don't want to cover all the nuances; (2) linear algebra is a very large subject and so even if a student should learn it, the question becomes: what part of linear algebra? What should be the focus of the class? We need professors willing to change it up based on student needs and interests. We're teaching kids how to learn, not rote memory -- if we do a good job, then even if we don't cover everything, students will know how to find and learn what they need in the future!
Finally, many textbooks themselves were not written because of someone's passion to educate, but rather to fulfill a bullet point for a PhD or tenure. Check the introduction/forward of any textbook; most of them will say "This grew out of work I did for my PhD....". It is almost verbatim someone's PhD thesis, but somehow undergraduates are expected to follow a PhD thesis on a subject (remembe
I'm a current one. I enjoy bullshitting with our textbook reps, because I enjoy bullshitting, and they keep thinking that entertaining me is going to positively influence our textbook purchasing. What really happened at the last committee meeting was " It is immoral and unacceptable to discriminate against minority students through textbook pricing. I will not support the new edition until there are adequate copies available on the used textbook market.." Throwing the discrimination card worked beautifully.
Yes, he is sure.
See the recent spat over the drug that is available for $1 a pill AT A PROFIT STILL, rather than $750 a pill.
Look at the profit of the companies and then look at the expenses line of R&D compared to "other".
I remember one course in computer science (architecture) where the textbook was written by the lecturer (a academic no-one), it was considerably more expensive than the standard textbooks, it didn't cover as much or in as much detail than the standard and it was "required" as it contained assignments that would not be provided in any other form. Bullshit.
It worked out in the end though the university at first didn't see the problem: the use of that book was actually not decided by the lecturer but by the university. The reason was that it followed the lectures better than any other book - not that strange...
The result was that one was recommended to use the book but it wasn't required. Why didn't they do that from the beginning? The course itself was good as was the lecturer but that left quite some badwill...
Prices go up, not down. I've been taking pills for 20 years and I have NEVER seen the price go down. What I've seen happen is that I've been switched to new (and more expensive) patent-protected medications when the patents on old medications are about to expire. But at $1500 a month I am not paying less for my pills.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Yes and the argument of those poor pharma companies to anyone who tries to stick their legislative oar in is "oh but it's the only way we can make profits". Because Bayer doesn't make any money at all on Aspirin.../sarcasm
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Also likely can't fail any one as well as that hurts the schools income.
My mother-in-law takes a fairly new med for her leukemia -- it's about $10,000 for 14 days and has been very effective. That drug would have never made it to market if "big pharma" didn't expect to turn a profit (including cover OTHER research projects).
$5000 of that cost goes to marketing and sales commissions. R&D spending is generally 10-20% sales spending examples I mean, R&D is expensive. Those costs are definitely big numbers; it's just that they're small in comparison to other parts of pharmaceutical spending.
Without a hint or irony no doubt, their twitter account @csuf just posted this:
Davis: 2015 year of firsts in data crime and cyber security. No. 1 concern: disgruntled employees. #economicforecast
Oct 29, 2015
Every course I took, as an Electrical Engineer, had books in the college library for use as reference. I stopped buying textbooks after my first year of school. Nearly ever math book had the chapters rearranged but 90% of the examples and problems were the same if you went to the appropriate chapter. Where they were different it was never hard to get the correct questions from fellow students.
Or just split the cost of books with others in your section and make "study groups".
"Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
There's ethic in the textbook industry?!
Yup, there's exactly one ethic: No using children under the age of 5 as a source of paper.
However, if you read the article, you'll see that the authors of the department-assigned text are the chair and vice-chair of the department. Which is largely unethical in my opinion. (But don't get me started on ethics and the textbook industry...)
Having the textbook authors mandate purchase of their book is blatantly unethical. So, the authors attempted to shield their lack of ethics by recusing themselves from the textbook selection process. However, the members of the selection committee are still fully cognizant that they are deciding whether to take money away from their bosses. So, despite the recusal, the situation is still unethical, just in a more hidden way.
This situation has parallels to the issue of sexual consent between superiors and subordinates. Due to the ability of the superiors to retaliate, subordinates are assumed to lack the ability to freely give consent in any situation. Such is the case with the textbook committee. Because there is no way to remove the threat of retaliation, they are effectively unable to freely voice their opinions.
It's surprisingly common. I just wrote a pretty long indictment of my Freshmen Chemistry Class textbook's author(chair of the Chemistry Dept... Go figure!) but I don't want to get sued for libel/defamation so I'll let the PhD keep her racket for the sake of pragmatic self-interest. Maybe this is why nobody makes waves? Once you've paid the money: there's little use in undermining the legitimacy/credibility of the education so the people who HAD the greatest financial investment in the outcome are the victims who want to move on with their lives. Meanwhile: new freshmen face the prospect of making enemies out of the people who are grading their papers if they complain before they have invested the "sunk cost".
This is why we can't have nice things!
I had elementary electronics classes where the instructors would use old Navy books because they were cheaper. They worked fine.
Here's what one former university professor had to say about his experience with the textbook industry.
The man from the book depository was there, and he said, "Excuse me; I can explain that. I didn't send it to you because that book hadn't been completed yet. There's a rule that you have to have every entry in by a certain time, and the publisher was a few days late with it. So it was sent to us with just the covers, and it's blank in between. The company sent a note excusing themselves and hoping they could have their set of three books considered, even though the third one would be late."
It turned out that the blank book had a rating by some of the other members! They couldn't believe it was blank, because [the book] had a rating. In fact, the rating for the missing book was a little bit higher than for the two others. The fact that there was nothing in the book had nothing to do with the rating.
Imagine the wasted money, time, and human effort that could be saved from not rewriting the same books every few years. Imagine all the good that could be achieved not just in California, or the US, but the entire world, if textbooks where open source. The only losers would be the textbook publishers and those receiving their kickbacks.
Worked for a university for years, started off part-time at the bookstore in the heady days before the Internet and Amazon.com. The reason a department chose a common book to teach from back then was to save money. A consensus vote would be done to choose a common book for the class sections because then the university bookstore (often owned by the university or a 501(c)3 non-profit auxiliary) would buy those textbooks in bulk and save money on their purchase to generate more revenue to cover personnel costs in the bookstore from the markup. That was the ONLY reason they chose a common book, that and to save the bookstore shelf space from having six different books for one course, but it was all about money.
Fast forward a few years of my career and I was doing graduate teaching and learned that the syllabus for a course determines the topics covered, not the textbook. Anyone who's ever taken a class, even in k-12, knows that you rarely if ever cover everything in the book nor in the exact order that it appears. Of course, the syllabus for common classes was also a consensus creation and would get revised every few years by a curriculum committee.
Long story short, this is about money and academic power struggles as TFS already states that the Assoc Prof made sure the materials he was using covered the syllabus requirements, but didn't make the appropriate kickbacks to the bookstore and the in-house authors of the common text. It's straight up corruption. University bookstores are a greedy dinosaur that needs to die, and this case especially illustrates why. Fullerton, thy name is Mudd.
I have never observed correlation between book cost and quality, especially in math textbooks. Years back I taught calculus at a major public university and was require to use an expensive calculus text. That piece of garbage actually stated that "integration is more difficult than differentiation because integration is an inverse operation"! The reason symbolic integration is more difficult is that, unlike differentiation, there is no product law for integration so you can not easily break down complex expressions into simple ones that you know how to integrate.
(While the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus says the two are inverse operators for each other, the definition of integration does not involve differentiation - you can as well consider differentiation as the inverse operator.)
It's really interesting. I work at a small independent (family-owned) academic publishing house, and we actually have a textbook with an author at Cal State Fullerton. That author foregoes royalties on any sales to Cal State Fullerton. I had thought that was a school policy (this kind of policy is pretty common--and becoming more so--actually), but I guess not.
$180 seems like a crapload for a math textbook that probably doesn't change much between editions. Our most expensive book is a real monster at something like 1800 pages, and comes in around $140. Having said that, I can absolutely understand the desire to have all students in different sections use the same book.
Maybe the authors should volunteer to give up royalties (or donate to a charity, etc) for sales to their own school as a good faith gesture?
Any (former) student will tell you that you never buy the textbook until the prof tells you whether you need it or not. Heck, sometimes they'll even tell you that you can use an earlier revision which will be significantly cheaper.
Yep that's it. It only bit me once in my entire degree where a textbook was optional and then 2 weeks before finals we were told the exam is open book but we could only bring the approved textbook in. There was a sudden rush on the library, and the bookstores and then the maybe 20 copies of it available were all gone. Thank good I knew someone who did the course who still had the textbook.
Do you mean 5 years as in 365*5? Do you mean under 5 as in had 5 birthdays? What about those born on Feb 29th? Can we begin to use them for paper when they're 5 or when they're 20?
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
And the problem is? Students that can choose between the classes can now get to chose based on book price as well.
The problem is when student's can't chose between the classes and then when it comes to sitting the Exam for Maths101 they were all taught in different ways using different content. Was my teacher awesome? How do I know?
What's wrong with making the texts for technical courses (math, science, engineering) free? Put everything online, get volunteers to work on them if there's a demand for them, start with digital copies of excellent Russian texts in the maths and sciences. India did something similar before the internet: the costs of textbooks in these subjects was only the extremely minimal cost of making and distributing the books, and major Indian politicians said it was fine to wholesale make copies of these books!
I promise you, if they invent a drug that cures cancer, they don't need to advertise that shit.
Even on a lesser scale, important drugs don't need advertising. Advertising is for shit drugs that are desperate for a market and customers. It's just a way to milk us.
You seem to be under some illusions about the working conditions of University professors. Most of your professors are adjuncts, working part time for less than minimum wage.
You're upset because your professor didn't contact you way before the first class to tell you what the expectations were? Guess what? The University probably hadn't even gotten around to hiring her yet. And even if they had, they reserved the right to say "just kidding" and cancel it at the last minute.
You want someone to blame for the poor quality of your education? It's not your professors. It's the "dooshbags" they are working for.
I am sorry to hear that you are out an extra $50 for the cost of a new textbook. Your professor, who makes about $20,000 a year by working at three different schools with no benefits, no job security and no support from their employer, knows what that feels like.
I have to disagree. You ask "who is this associate professor to..."? He is a tenured and promoted instructor in the department and thus is not some insignificant peon. As a former professor (as you claim), then you know that your class is your class. What needs to be covered is the same, fundamental content. Not in the same order and not everything will be explained the same way.
Departments do curriculum and content mapping to ensure that the content covered is consistent. The resources to cover that content are NOT (I repeat, NOT) at all part of the accreditation process. I know this as I am involved with accreditation at the university where I teach. So, academic freedom is clear on this...you can teach the course as you will as long as you cover the material expected by the course description.
Numerous universities have different texts for different sections, so there is no case to be made in the consistency argument. I was at a large, R1 school for undergrad and my organic section had a completely different text than the other sections.
In the end, the chair and vice chair look (even if it's not true) like greedy, unethical people and should be ashamed at their actions. The university will surely hear it from their accrediting agency over the lack of academic freedom, not to mention the union that many professors are a member of.
http://news.slashdot.org/story...
My local university has one that is completely free and has the source code available upon request. I'm trying to 'rewrite' it in an iPython notebook similar to the AeroPy.
I haven't lectured in two years. I've of course been teaching, but have stopped using the method known as "the lecture"—delivering a set amount of material (aka, "covering") from the front of the classroom to a group of mostly quiet, note-taking students. Like greater profs before me, I am a converted lecturer.1
It was Spring 2012 when I went full-steam ahead with the flipped classroom idea for my Computational Fluid Dynamics course. I've written before about how this came about, but the impetus resulted from already having done the lecture capture, live, in a previous version of the CFD course. I uploaded the videos from that live lecture capture to YouTube (after minor editing and cutting into segments) where, since then, they have collected nearly 220,000 public views (checked 20 April'14). My challenge that semester was coming up with class activities—but that should be the topic of another post.
- AeroPy.
If they are a maths student, it means they want to learn math, not that they already know it. That's like insisting that a first year med student know that they can't mix Panexa with Tetra-meth phlogiston without a repressor protein to block the operating cells.
Here an Associate Professor has tenure. If you are tenure track you are hired as an Assistant Professor, and become an Associate when you are granted tenure. So it means you've been around for some time and passed your big milestone. Becoming a full professor does not happen for a long time after that, generally at least 10 years, sometimes longer. As a practical matter departments usually only have so many lines for full professors.
So an associate isn't some junior level position or anything. It means a tenured professor with their own research lab, at least where I work.
Not according to one of the math professors commenting in TFA:
The professor is teaching one section of a class where different sections are taught by different faculty. As all the students - regardless of which section they are enrolled in - are enrolled in the same course, they should all be studying the same material. While it is not impossible to ensure that this happens when different sections use different texts, it is a lot easier to ensure that this happens when everyone does use the same text.
Yes, what if matrix multiplication is done differently in one book as opposed to the next..
It's linear algebra. Set a syllabus for what needs to be covered, yes, with a little room for teacher-specific enrichment, but requiring the same unethically chosen textbook for everyone is absurd. Linear algebra doesn't change based on what textbook you read it from. The *only* advantage is students have more people to talk with about the problem set if they're all assigned the same book.
Why would you need a $180 book to teach linear algebra? Matrix multiplication is easy. And if you have a state university system the size of California's, you can hire a great educator to write a textbook for less than, say, the 1.8M per year it would cost 10K students going through linear algebra a year to buy them.
So what you're saying is that the mathematics in the $75 book is different from the math in the $185 textbook, and that students must use the exact same book or else they won't learn the same material as the other sections?
So long as a professor is teaching to the course syllabus he should be free to use whatever training materials he feels is best for his students.
If they failed the course the first time around or didn't make a high enough grade to satisfy a prerequisite for a later class in the series, then they make take the same class a second time. If the previous lecturer isn't teaching the class in the current term, the student would have a different one, who may be using a different book.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
So, the Ass Prof take the State Uni. defended by a State Attorney, to State Court and tries to convince a State Judge that the State Uni wronged him.
The amazing thing is that you think the Ass Prof could, ever, possibly win.
But then you probably work in the Academic Industry, do you?
I'm a professor in the business school at a large public university and several of our department's faculty have written well-received text books (i.e., popular outside of our university). For the class I teach there are actually three different faculty members with three different text books (three different publishers too), including our department chair. We have no pressure to choose one text book over another (in fact one faculty uses a book different from the one written by this faculty's spouse). Our Dean has enforced a long standing policy that all royalties for faculty-authored text books sold on our campus go to a student scholarship fund so our faculty cannot benefit from sales at our university. If it is a good book the sales outside of the university should be enough. I use one of our faculty's text books in my class and I inform my students of this policy the first day of class. The students know that I chose this text book because I feel that it is the best for our class, and not that my buddy down the hall will financially benefit. This should be a standard model outside of our department and university but I really have not heard of this happening elsewhere.
Introductory macro is pretty slow moving, at least compared to the rate at which new textbooks are being published. The main changes in the "new text book every 6 months" cycles are unimportant mentions of current events and complete changes to the problem sets to keep you from reusing the last rev.
Let me guess: Mankiw?
At least it's a good textbook. I didn't sell mine back, and not just because old editions are completely worthless.
An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
You made an unjustified leap. Advertising that keeps going must be working and getting more people to buy the drugs. That I can agree on. The idea that more people buying a drug will lead to lower prices for each person is the leap that I can't agree with. It may lead to lower prices for the drug or if the company is selling more doses per month they may decide to keep the price the same and just pocket the money.
Just a little off topic but very interesting from the link you cited. Just to show that certain idea could become obsolete when time goes by. :)
I'll give you an example: They would talk about different bases of numbers -- five, six, and so on -- to show the possibilities. That would be interesting for a kid who could understand base ten -- something to entertain his mind. But what they turned it into, in these books, was that every child had to learn another base! And then the usual horror would come: "Translate these numbers, which are written in base seven, to base five." Translating from one base to another is an utterly useless thing. If you can do it, maybe it's entertaining; if you can't do it, forget it. There's no point to it.
As you know, we would need to understand the covert base number concept nowadays in order to understand computer architecture better (especially with fraction approximation). In 1999, it might not be that important yet.
Uhm, the Syllabus may say "required" but that doesn't mean you are forced to use it. Most professors are happy to accommodate people using older editions. Since most of the time it just means finding out the small changes in homework problems.
It was a long time ago in a university far far away, but for all the 'hard' courses, I brought myself several textbooks for each course. Reading the subject from multiple viewpoints and multiple ways of explaining was effective at getting the ideas in my head. Of course if the textbooks were the price they are in the US today, I don't think I'd be able to afford that approach. I still have a pile of math and DSP books in front of me from that time. Lecturer quality varies, but you still have to learn the stuff.
To the linear algebra problem in TFS, I highly recommend the MIT Open Courseware Linear Algebra lectures by Gilbert Strang. He's a good teacher.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
> At least linear algebra is like a 300-level course.
Why? When I was at school, the basics of linear algebra (matrices, eschelon forms, gaussian elimination, A=LU, etc, but not the higher dimensional stuff) was taught on and off from around age 13. You were supposed to know it when you got to college. I remember not being presented with Eigen-whatsits until college.
It might be a 300 course in the US today, but it doesn't have to be. It's not that complex, just a bit conceptually different to what kids get from algebra.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
> There's ethic in the textbook industry?! Since when?!
Of course there is. There's big money in selling textbooks for ethics classes.
If you meant ethical behavior, then no, we could've replaced all of theses courses with a web app by now and A/B tested our way to the best learning outcomes.
However, if you read the article, you'll see that the authors of the department-assigned text are the chair and vice-chair of the department. Which is largely unethical in my opinion. (But don't get me started on ethics and the textbook industry...)
Isn't that how all textbook decisions are made? I remember our awful CompSci books were written by the department chairs. I won't have cared that much had we not concluded the department head was senile.
So its like taking a test were you automatically get some points just for signing your name then lose points if you answer wrong.
Math texts are even worse today. You must buy a new copy that must come with a one-time-code to online courseware made by the publisher. Your access is generally restricted to under 100 days. Sometimes as little as 60. Your grades are automatic through that courseware. The professor doesn't actually have to do anything except show up and go through the powerpoint slides provided by the courseware provider. If you are taking an online class you might not have contact with the professor at all except for an email at the beginning and the end of the semester. Oh and don't forget to pay your technology fee of 30-100 dollars per class for the privelge of taking it online with an absentee professor.
Once your class comes to an end the book becomes useless as a code purchased separately generally costs about 180 dollars while the textbook-code pair or "learning kit/package" as they are called is generally around 220. That is how they get around the new standard practice of sharing textbook pdfs people were lucky enough to find. Hint: look at Chinese and Indian websites to help or aid students. Oddly the books are usually still in English. Full courseware answers can be found there too. Yeah, the cheating problem is that bad.
Don't even get me started on the quality of books. In the last few years I have witnessed them take a nosedive. Math texts are rarely bound anymore. You just get a pile of paper you have to stuff into a three-ring binder that you have to buy separately. Luckily they haven't figured out that they could use proprietary spacing or alignments. The paper itself is so razor thin that care must be taken when turning pages one by one or you risk ripping them out of the binder. Of course after you realize no one will buy your used book the incentive to keep it looking nice is lost.
I'll preface this by saying that I was not tenured faculty. But I was adjunct faculty with a thriving career outside of the university and seven years as a part-time faculty member.
This happened to me at local State U (I'm in a flyover state) and ended my years as a professor. I was a top-rated instructor in the department by both student evaluations and faculty observations, advising graduate students, experienced, and had been there a long time teaching courses that I developed and that were well-received.
New leadership came in at the divisional level, and I was called in to a meeting with my chair one day. I was told I could no longer do what I had been doing for at least half a decade: assigning a textbook that was several editions old (there were no substantive changes in the newer editions, just replaced photos) and instructing students on the syllabus to pick the books up for literally pennies on Amazon.com, Alibris, eBay, or other online venues.
Instead, I had to assign the latest issue of the textbook and do it only through the university bookstore, at a cost of >$150.00 in one class, >$200.00 in another (compared to an average of $4.00 plus shipping most semesters for the online used versions). I had it listed as my first assignment on each syllabus—buy a used textbook online and submit proof of purchase (to be sure the students actually did get ahold of the textbooks).
I refused. I said I would provide both options—I'd order the textbook through the university bookstore and provide that as an option to students that preferred to buy new, through the bookstore, but would also allow both current and old editions to be used in my classes for students that wanted to rely on used books. I was threatened again. New only, bookstore only.
I refused. I was fired.
That semester (in 2014) was the last time I set foot on a college campus as a professor, after nearly a decade in the classroom every semester. Again, I wasn't tenured—but it left a significant hole in curriculum and advising. They were more interested in ensuring that students contributed to revenue and partnerships through bookstore purchases than they were in actually enabling students to learn in a cost-effective way.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
The institutions themselves are benefitting in revenue terms through bookstore sales, which also benefit publishers significantly in a kind of win-win.
I made a post about my years as a professor below and about being fired for allowing students to work from used textbooks.
What I didn't post below was that in the early '00s, before I was a professor, I worked in a well-known academic publisher of textbooks and journals in the Los Angeles area. I was over a department / topic area and one of the things that we did to stay ahead of revenue neutrality in our publications was ensure that they were "updated" every year. In many cases, preparation for the new "edition" entailed hiring two independent contractors: one freelance photo editor to replace all the images, and another freelance academic (often at a total cost of $1k-$2k tops) to re-do the exercises, tweak a few chapter titles, and perhaps reorder some chapters.
This was a strategy to enable "stale" books (read: books with large presences in used channels) to be revenue positive again (new edition = now more books in used channels, meaning a rash of new sales for 2-4 semesters). The initial investment in the text had in many cases happened years ago; subsequent annual investments were often in the low four figures or even less.
Of course, this high-margin model also enabled us to do deals with universities and their bookstores. Because of the low overhead for many refreshed titles, we could offer favorable terms to them for their revenue generation, often demanding minimum buys or various kinds of exclusivity in exchange for better revenue terms.
It's a kind of wealth transfer from the taxpayers (as student loans), through students, into the pockets of publishers and institutional administrations.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
So this is all about corruption.
Don't you know.. You're supposed to celebrate your birthday every 365.25 days! Anyone born on Feb 29th after 6:00 PM should thus celebrate their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd birthdays on March 1st, and their 4th birthday on February 29th. Those born between the hours of 12:00 PM and 6:00 PM on February 29th should celebrate their first birthday on the February 28th, their 2nd and 3rd on March 1st, and their 4th on February 29th. I'm sure from here you can work out the rest :-)
While big pharma does some research, most of the research is government funded. They just get to claim exclusive use of it.
OTOH, I believe the DO pay for the large scale human testing that goes on pre-approval. (And where they hide the results of any failed tests.)
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
That's the cheaper book that was used at CSB
If you had gone far enough you would have gotten the real linear algebra course. It usually comes with or after DiffEq.
The one you took was memorize and regurgitate, like pre-calculus statistics. Worth taking I suppose, but you just memorize formulas you don't understand.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
The basic research is generally government-funded, and typically winds up easily available to anyone interested. This may be an observation that a certain compound does certain useful things in mice, although it kills them fairly fast. A pharmaceutical company then picks up the research, and tries to make a practical drug out of it that works on humans without having side effects that are too bad. This involves lots of highly expensive tests, and may include either fiddling with the chemistry or finding out it just isn't going to work.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Understanding how matrices represent systems of linear equations is pretty darned useful to have internalized early on. I wouldn't call it regurgitation and memorization.
I took the full meal deal after I left college, since it crops up in my work all the time.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
When I took Linear Algebra the prof (also the undergraduate chair in addition) had written the textbook. The commercial version, which could be bought on amazon and which other schools used, cost around the same as the one the article mentions. For any classes *at* my school the school had a special version printed and bound especially for them. The printing and binding wasn't the greatest quality and it only included the material used in the specific curriculum of the school, but it was $25 at the university book store. I've always thought that was really cool and I always respected the prof for that.
"goodbye and hello, as always" ~Prince Corwin, from Zelazny's Amber series
However my book expenses was nothing compared to what they had to put up with in other areas, such as psychology or pedagogy. They had to buy $200 books just for a chapter or two.
That's what university libraries are for...go fair-use and photocopiers!
"I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
I'm a current one. I enjoy bullshitting with our textbook reps, because I enjoy bullshitting, and they keep thinking that entertaining me is going to positively influence our textbook purchasing. What really happened at the last committee meeting was " It is immoral and unacceptable to discriminate against minority students through textbook pricing. I will not support the new edition until there are adequate copies available on the used textbook market.." Throwing the discrimination card worked beautifully.
You should have gone into politics.
(I don't think I've ever said this to a math professor before)
And the problem is? Students that can choose between the classes can now get to chose based on book price as well.
The problem is when student's can't chose between the classes and then when it comes to sitting the Exam for Maths101 they were all taught in different ways using different content. Was my teacher awesome? How do I know?
And the folks who took the course the year before or the year later will also have different experiences. So what?
Usually in places where Maths101a is taught by a different instructor than Maths101b, the evaluations are done independantly by each instructor, with nothing more in common between then then the courses taught in different years. To expect the identical experience when taking courses taught by different instructors is probably unwise.
Dear Professor: You are but a cog in a well-oiled machine. CSUF did not achieve its reputation as one of the top mathematics universities in the world by requiring less than the best textbooks, written by our own best in the world mathematicians. What? Oh. Apparently, CSUF is not actually the best in the world. My mistake.
What? There is absolutely no need to learn a base other than ten and even less to convert between bases by hand.
For computers it's enough to know that A is 1010. Why would anyone need to know that there are 012 apples in a basket.
Also 1999 for fucks sake! I can't name anything made this way from 1984 that required you to convert.
Name the last time you needed hexadecimal to interact with your iPhone.
As a (former) student, I never had a college level math class that didn't require the text book. Even more notably, it almost always had to be the new one, because they rearrange and change the problems assigned as homework.
That was my experience too, but some profs didn't always require the accompanying workbook, although they often recommended it.
And the folks who took the course the year before or the year later will also have different experiences. So what?
The folks from the year before and after (or even on different semesters) are not graded against these people in a bell configuration. We went through exactly such a case when I was at university. If the general subject was taught in a way that the exam didn't fit in with the course materials the marks were corrected afterwards (bell curved). However in one subject we failed an assignment (thankfully not a final exam) we all thought we did pretty well in. The university's open marks policy allowed us to contact every failing student and lo-and-behold we all had the same tutor who royally fucked us by teaching us a format that didn't apply in the assignment. Not only did we fail but due to bell curving we pushed up sub-par students in the other class who actually did deserve to fail.
We eventually took it to the tribunal and they removed that assignment from the final grading for the course and also put a supervisor in the classes to check the tutor was teaching the right content for the final exam.
Don't underestimate how you can get screwed by something outside of your control. You shouldn't ever need to care what last year's guys did (except if you have lazy course coordinators in which case it sometimes pays off to get a copy of last year's exam off someone), but you need to take an active interest in ensuring you're getting the same education as other people doing the subject. If I'm going to fail I want it to be due to lack of effort on my part, not due to an unlucky choice of lecture constrained by my timetable.
Oh and of course this is not 100% within your control due to different quality of teaching, but you don't want to get screwed from the ground up by being taught from a fundamentally different material than everyone else to begin with.
Speaking as a former student: what's a textbook? Ok, I exaggerate slightly for effect: one of the many lecture courses that I took in my degree was taught from a textbook, although in that case it was written by the lecturer and she handed out photocopies of the relevant chapters. All of the other courses were taught from the lecturer's own notes. The idea that lecture courses should be taught from a textbook is part of a specific university culture, not a universally accepted notion.
James Stewart wrote the most used calculus book in the US.
This is where the money went.
http://www.decoist.com/2011-04-05/james-stewarts-private-house-in-toronto-integral-house/
Now who can blame anyone who seeks to follow in The Master's footsteps?
Sheeesh, you people.
You're soft selling it. It's not a little money. Look at James Stewart's Integral House in Toronto if you want to see the kind of money made in grossly overpriced textbooks. And he was ONE of the players whose palms were being greased by this scam. The university bookstores are unbelievable goldmines and yes, I do know what from working at one withinthe Universityof California and seeing the numbers. We're talking betweenn 1.5 o 2 million *a week* averaged over the 40 or weeks of an academic year.
And who pays for those textbooks? Student loans. And what is the next financial bubble? Student loans. The university system is not a scam,but only in the sense that it does deliver some product which vaguely fits the description of that offered, at astronomical cost, which is competely out of proportion to their realizable costs if they qweren't running scams, which in turn is completely out of proportion to what it *could* cost if they ever decided they needed to work somewhat at delivering greater value for less money. In every other way, it's a coral reef of little scams.
Scams in classes, scams in teaching. Scams in selling books, scams in buying equipment. Scams in fees, sams in tuition, scams against professors, scams against donors, scams against hte government, scams against funding foundations, scams in staffing, scams in executive compensation packages, scams in intellectual property *agreements* (so called "technology transfer agreements"), scams in parking, scam scam scam absolutely everything and everyone you come in contact with every chance you get.
I used to think the university was indispensible because, if you read the headlines for any time, the sanest voices on virtually any topic inevitably come from some researcher or professor. The fact that there exists anywhere a bastion of objectivity where the truth can be spoken against power is consequence of the historical role of the university and the ideals of free thought of "academic freedom" that it still protects to a large degree. Without that historical role, we wouldn't even know anything like "the truth" but only what Koch Industries and their ilk wanted you to know.
But we need to disassemble the university as it is anyways. It's so corrupt, and the cost is to disastrous, it just can't be permitted to survive. It's completely toxic. I don't know where the replacement for the vital functions the university provides will arise from. That terrifies me, however, the alternative amounts to supporting and defending a corrupt institution which will take this nation down with it. It has to die and from its ashes Something Else has to arise or we're done for as a nation. There is no other alternative.
Please do get started on the ethics of the textbook industry. Not everyone has the view of things you do, expecially longitudinally. To some of us, this is valuable and ultimately actionable knowledge. So pease, do share.
They may or may not be getting any money from the textbook.
It goes on their CV that they wrote the book used by all sections of X class at X university. That's what's important to academics.
The book price, who cares? Not the students who are on $cholarship$. Not the students who have $LOL student loans. How many students actually pay their way through? The price of the book isn't really that big compared to the course tuition, course fees, and general enrollment fees anyway.
The authors bang out a manuscript, the textbook company buys it, typesets it, stuffs it full of pretty pictures, sells it to the students for $LOL, the authors get their prestige, the students get their degrees, it's a win/win.
Authors don't care if their book gets pirated. They want to have on their CV that they wrote the book on subject that was used by course at university in semesters date, date, date.
It would be very difficult to prove such a case, especially of the authors of the more expensive text had waived their royalties from sales of the text to students that they, themselves teach. Note that the book is sold at a discount.
Professor Bourget is likely fighting a loosing battle because he appears to be one of a team of instructors teaching a core course and is likely not the course coordinator. I think it likely that if one looks at the case in more detail there is probably much more involved, all at the interpersonal level and Professor Bourget will ultimately be on the loosing end.
These two authors are abusing their position by trying to force another professor to use an expensive tex book that they authored. They are acting against the interests of the students and should be fired if possible and reprimanded if it's not possible to fire them.The students should demand that the dean act in their interest not that of the department chair.
What is astonishing is that they can even charge $180+ for a freakin' maths textbook. For god's sake, it's maths! And basic maths at that! Hasn't changed in hundreds of years. No excuse not to use simple online technology for basic courses.
Oh and of course this is not 100% within your control due to different quality of teaching, but you don't want to get screwed from the ground up by being taught from a fundamentally different material than everyone else to begin with.
That does sound like a challenge.
Of course the whole idea that grades should have any importance beyond helping the instructor and sudent gain insight into progress and how to futher their learning is an issue so fundamentally mixed up within our educational systems that it twists the way we look at almost every aspect of those systems. The proper idea of "we should/should not do such-and-such because it will help/hinder students' learning" is so easly morphed into "we should/should not do such-and-such because it will help/hinder students' grades", further driving the idea that the grading is the important outcome.
But I digress....
As a community college instructor, the above is certainly true, at least for my classes. The WISE thing to do is to contact the prof prior to the first class to confirm this information.
I've also been asked if the print edition is required. I do know what this means, and my usual response is "I just want you to have access to the text, both in and out of class".
They have it available as a LaTeX file or PDF. Former is needed to see proofing changes.
2nd edition, Enlarged.
I taught pure and applied Calc and Diff Equations at a smaller university. We were 3 profs for the same subject. My students did not have rich benefactors; some were bright students from other countries. Groups of 4 foreign students rented an apartment, to share the costs. These students were appreciative of my not obliging them to buy the official book. In fact, they shared the one book, and worked together (synergism). It was one of the few years in the history of the university that a math class had every student passing with a good understanding of the two subjects. And, I am willing to bet that after the course, each of my students from that class could teach the two subjects to others. At the end of the year I left that city to return to my home town to get married. I called it the year of three successes.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
It's not just the legal profession and government that has problems with ethics.
Universities have have problems regarding ethics for a long time. I doubt this problem is limited to the USA, but I'll address it from a US perspective.
Among the most fundamental rights arising under the 9th Amendment of the US Bill of Rights ("rights retained by the people") are the rights to ethical conduct on the part of government, on the part of the legal profession. These are fundamental, universal human rights.
Even the appearance of conflict of interest must be avoided when alternatives exist. All provisions of the Bill of Rights that are not specifically limited to the federal government do, of course, apply to the state governments (that in itself is a consequence of the right to ethical practice of law, as well as something we know from James Madison's original text).
In this particular case, the policies of the university are unethical. There is a clear conflict of interest with respect to forcing students to buy textbooks authored by professors on the faculty.
Since these policies are unethical, they violate the applicable 9th Amendment rights with respect to ethics (this would be true even for an university run as a private business, let alone a state university), and are hence illegal.
This conclusion followed irregardless of the details of federal or state law: the Bill of Rights is the highest law in the land. The parties involved in either creating or enforcing these policies demonstrate their lack of fitness to hold any position of public trust or responsibility.
Another right that comes to mind with respect to this situation is the right to not be subject to excessive bureaucracy (also arising under the 9th Amendment, arguably yet another consequence of the right to ethical practice of law), but I won't address that today.
It's also worth noting that these universities receive public funding for research grants (and other purposes). The public has a vested interest in having those that receive such funding be ethical. The government is not allowed, under the 9th Amendment, to provide funding to individuals or groups with ethics problems.
Even private business can be required to be ethical as a consequence of rights arising under the 9th Amendment. This, after all, is how the government gets the authority to make bribing government officials (here and overseas) illegal (an authority that appears nowhere else in the Constitution).
For that matter, the 9th Amendment right to require ethics on the part of private business follows as a consequence of the 9th Amendment right to ethical practice of law.
I'll leave the proof of that last point to the mathematicians in the audience, it's not cookie cutter linear algebra such as one might find in any of the essentially equivalent textbooks on the subject, but they should be able to handle it.
The right to ethical conduct on the part of business applies not just to ethics with respect to government, or customers, but also with respect to interactions between employees and their peers or superiors in a business hierarchy. Bringing this reprimand was inappropriate, and everybody involved should have known that. Remember Nuremberg, people.
Along with the publish or perish system (itself unethical), unethical university practices with respect to textbooks have survived for far too long. Unfortunately, bad things staying the same for many, many years is a strong (perhaps defining) characteristic of US legal history. It will be interesting to see how long it takes to fix this one.
"Our Dean has enforced a long standing policy that all royalties for faculty-authored text books sold on our campus go to a student scholarship fund so our faculty cannot benefit from sales at our university."
I've seen similar rules at various universities.
The local captive bookshop and/or publishers ALWAYS ensure that the academics in question get a kickback.
I often chose which section of a course to take, based on the assigned textbooks. I did not pay big bucks for books I did not intend to keep. I cannot stand books cluttered with boxes, colors, cartoons, needless explications, etc.
It served me well. I now have a good reference library.
There is an obvious conflict of internet that needs to be addressed when the chair and vice chair of the department wrote the required book. The math department there votes on what book to use so that they can standardize what the students are getting, BUT there's no mention of chair and vice chair not voting on it. If even if they didn't vote, it doesn't resolve the conflict of interest completely since they're the chair and vice chair of the department and therefore you can't prove that the others didn't vote in favor of it to be in favor of them.
Don't be silly. Words like "Conflict of interest", "Fraud", "Kickbacks" and "Unbecoming behavior" only apply to "Those evil business people", not to University Administrators! 8-}
They probably have done this for so long that they don't even know it is wrong, anymore...