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The European Commission Is Preparing a Frontal Attack On the Hyperlink (juliareda.eu)

An anonymous reader writes: Julia Reda, a member of the European parliament, is sounding the alarm on new copyright legislation under development. She says the European Commission is considering copyright protection for hyperlinking. Reda says, "This idea flies in the face of both existing interpretation and spirit of the law as well as common sense. Each weblink would become a legal landmine and would allow press publishers to hold every single actor on the Internet liable." Under this scheme, simply linking to copyrighted material would be legally considered "providing access," and thus require explicit permission of the rightsholder. Reda warns that it could lead to legal expenses for anyone who shares links (read: everybody), and ultimately the fragmentation of the internet.

220 comments

  1. I fart on your links by For+a+Free+Internet · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Nothing on the internet is good anymore. It is a corporate wasteland.

    --
    UNITE with the Campaign for a Free Internet because today, our future begins with tomorrow!
    1. Re: I fart on your links by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You progressives on here are going to finally experience your chickens coming home to roost. Have fun.

    2. Re: I fart on your links by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty sure it's the conservative billionaire corporations which are funding this effort...

    3. Re:I fart on your links by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Pretty soon just looking at a link without even clicking on it will be an offense. And they'll call it something like "abstracted indirect copyright infringement" or some such baloney.

      "You viewed that web page and it had a link on it, therefore we're charging you with potential infringement. You're just lucky you didn't actually click on that link, pal, because that would have been an extra 10 years under the Trans Pacific Partnership Act. Oh, wait- I spoke to soon- your browser preloaded the content under the link, so now you're looking at a solid 20 years here."

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    4. Re:I fart on your links by kheldan · · Score: 1

      Pretty soon just looking at a link without even clicking on it will be an offense.

      Yep. Welcome to the dystopian future world of Minority Report, where computer algorithms based on the profile generated by all the data everyone allowed to be collected on them (from Facebook, Twitter, and other so-called 'social media') will be used to predict future violations of copyright and other laws, which you will then be proactively prosecuted for. Since trade agreements like the TPP and it's descendents will more or less allow corporations to do whatever they want to whoever they want, you'll just receive and invoice from the billing department of their legal division for your 'future violations', expected to be paid in full within 30 days, or face extradition to the country-of-origin of the corporation you're predicted to damage in the future, where you'll do hard labor the rest of your life.

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    5. Re: I fart on your links by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm pretty sure it's the conservative billionaire corporations which are funding this effort...

      Nope. On the Internet, the "billionaire corporations" are almost all American, and they almost all oppose the criminalization of hyperlinking. This is being pushed by European governments to protect their media companies from evil Anglo-Saxon hyperlinks.

    6. Re: I fart on your links by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You do know that the hyperlink is a European invention? Made by Sir Tim Berners-Lee (a Brit) at the CERN.

    7. Re: I fart on your links by Jack9 · · Score: 3, Informative

      The term "hyperlink" was coined in 1965 (or possibly 1964) by Ted Nelson at the start of Project Xanadu. So, no. It's not a European invention. It was promoted by Tim heavily. Tim has some responsibility in popularizing it, I would agree.

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    8. Re: I fart on your links by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      It's coming from media barons, in particular Murdoch who has a number of major newspapers in Europe. He has made no secret about this desire to charge aggregators for the privilege of linking to his content, going so far as to claim google is "stealing" his content. He also wants to dismantle public broadcasting in UK/AU, he calls it "unfair competition" and has spent countless column inches devoted to attacking their credibility, which I find absolutely amazing coming from the guy who owns Fox News.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    9. Re:I fart on your links by doccus · · Score: 1

      Pretty soon just looking at a link without even clicking on it will be an offense.

      Yep. Welcome to the dystopian future world of Minority Report, where computer algorithms based on the profile generated by all the data everyone allowed to be collected on them (from Facebook, Twitter, and other so-called 'social media') will be used to predict future violations of copyright and other laws, which you will then be proactively prosecuted for. Since trade agreements like the TPP and it's descendents will more or less allow corporations to do whatever they want to whoever they want, you'll just receive and invoice from the billing department of their legal division for your 'future violations', expected to be paid in full within 30 days, or face extradition to the country-of-origin of the corporation you're predicted to damage in the future, where you'll do hard labor the rest of your life.

      Better not buy that shiny new computer then. It's "potential" infroingement. After all if 'infringers' use a computer then all computer users are "potential" infringers. (!)

    10. Re: I fart on your links by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure it's the conservative billionaire corporations which are funding this effort...

      Nope. On the Internet, the "billionaire corporations" are almost all American, and they almost all oppose the criminalization of hyperlinking. This is being pushed by European governments to protect their media companies from evil Anglo-Saxon hyperlinks.

      Isn't it more attacking the hyperlinking to copyrighted material (i.e. torrent links) that might be the end goal here so that they can more easily go after sites that don't host the actual content?

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    11. Re: I fart on your links by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I say I'm not worried. I'll be arrested for blowing whoever shows up at my door fucking head off with a 12 gauge shotgun enforcing any Bullshit laws. Now you have a reason. O your dead.

  2. This is what you get. by Brett+Buck · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When you create a super-layer of petty bureaucrats to run your lives, you can't be overly surprised when they create a bunch of petty and stupid rules.

    1. Re:This is what you get. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      For EU you're right on the "super-layer of petty bureaucrats" part. However, I wouldn't worry much about this case. Bureaucracy is self-sustaining, so they have to keep themselves busy.
      It is typical for the EU parliament to start from an mislead/uninformed position on tech issues and work its way to the common sense.

    2. Re:This is what you get. by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This comes up every six months. It never gets beyond a proposal.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    3. Re:This is what you get. by tnk1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That is of limited comfort to me. If people keep trying it, they could eventually succeed. They need to stop even trying something so asinine.

    4. Re:This is what you get. by A+Pressbutton · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Like terrorists, they only have to succeed once.

    5. Re:This is what you get. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It is typical for the EU parliament to start from an mislead/uninformed position on tech issues and work its way to the common sense.

      Read the summary again, its a member of parliament criticizing the commission. The commission is separate from parliament, not elected democratically ( they are hired bureaucrats not politicians ) and known to be both corrupt and for every backwards law you can think of.

    6. Re:This is what you get. by Teun · · Score: 1

      The commission is appointed by the democratic member states, a bit like how in many countries the government is appointed by the elected parliament.
      See, outside of the UK you don't need to be a member of parliament to get a seat in the government, get used to it, it works fine.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    7. Re:This is what you get. by ultranova · · Score: 1

      When you create a super-layer of petty bureaucrats to run your lives, you can't be overly surprised when they create a bunch of petty and stupid rules.

      The problem is, the only known alternative is "whoever has the biggest stick rules", which is even worse.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    8. Re:This is what you get. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "When you create a super-layer of petty bureaucrats to run your lives, you can't be overly surprised when they create a bunch of petty and stupid rules."

      No this is what you get when you allow corporations to rule and make the free market your god.

    9. Re:This is what you get. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The commission is appointed by the democratic member states, a bit like how in many countries the government is appointed by the elected parliament.

      See, outside of the UK you don't need to be a member of parliament to get a seat in the government, get used to it, it works fine.

      You have low standards.

      To go with your strange definition of "fine".

    10. Re:This is what you get. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If such a stupid law was ever passed far more likely it would be completely ignored and those that passed it forever ridiculed as incompetent oppressors.

    11. Re:This is what you get. by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Same as the "internet filter" here in Oz, some nutjob/shill politician suggests crippling the internet and the government of the day placates him and his supporters/sponsors with endless enquires until he is voted out of office at the next election.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    12. Re:This is what you get. by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Not really, it a way for minority issues to get aired and rejected.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    13. Re:This is what you get. by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      See, outside of the UK you don't need to be a member of parliament to get a seat in the government, get used to it, it works fine.

      If they are not elected, how can they have a "seat in government", a "seat" is a geographical area where an election is held to find a representative. Washington DC is the only place I can think of in the west where taxpayers are denied a vote, ie: they don't get a "seat".

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    14. Re:This is what you get. by kheldan · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't get too excited over this. They can make all the laws they want about something like this, but it won't be enfoceable. It would break the Internet, completely, for everyone. Someone would tap them on the shoulder at some point and explain to them how it's going to break the Internet, and that how because of that, it won't be enforceable. If you live in the EU and want to do something positive about crap like this, make sure people know how incredibly stupid the people on that commission are.

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    15. Re:This is what you get. by KGIII · · Score: 1

      There's probably some group out there who's trying to bring back restrictions on women's rights to vote, slavery, or other sorts of things and doing so every six months. It doesn't mean they'll eventually do it. We just hear about this on Slashdot because, well, it's what we're interested in (and what generates comments and views).

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    16. Re:This is what you get. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go upstairs and ask your mom how things really work.

    17. Re:This is what you get. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like the rules on curvature of bananas, denying market access from the more curvaceous bananas of the Canary Islands. I'm still totally crossed with that.

    18. Re:This is what you get. by Teun · · Score: 1

      If it suits better in your limited world view, call it a job in government, you know, like a government minister or his deputy.
      Over here we elect a parliament and it's members select the persons making up the government, they could be parliamentarians or professors or from the commercial world, what ever the elected parliament can agree on.
      That's why we call the parliament the 'Legislative', they decide on new laws, the government is the 'Executive'.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    19. Re:This is what you get. by Teun · · Score: 1

      And you have a very limited definition of the 'Representative Democracy'.
      Scary.
      Just like readers of The Sun and it's ilk.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  3. Ignorants by U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As usual, the people in charge of the law have no idea how technology works.

    To make a car analogy... well, this thing is so mind-bogglingly stupid that I can't think of any analogy.

    Fight for your bitcoins!

    1. Re:Ignorants by bswarm · · Score: 2

      How's this analogy... You are allowed to drive your car, but before you turn on to any street, you must get permission from every person who owns or resides on that street.

    2. Re: Ignorants by MasterOfGoingFaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Car analogy? Ok - I'll give it a shot.

      This is like claiming you are trespassing on my land, because some windblown dirt landed on the highway and you drove across it.

      --
      Place nail here >+
    3. Re:Ignorants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's like when you buy a car. But before you can drive it off the lot, the dealer takes it back and makes you pay for it again.

    4. Re:Ignorants by cfalcon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A car analogy would be, if you are discussing how poor Bob's car got stolen, then you are arrested for stealing Bob's car, even though you've never seen nor touched it, let alone stole it.

    5. Re: Ignorants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Car analogy? Ok - I'll give it a shot.

      This is like claiming you are trespassing on my land, because some windblown dirt landed on the highway and you drove across it.

      You drove over my dirt, thereby causing damage to it?
      that's now criminal trespass boyo...

    6. Re:Ignorants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Lemme take a shot at this one:

      Maps are illegal - they provide access to the locations of private land. We should ask every landowner if they want to appear on a map.

      e.g. I can't tell you where the coffee shop is, because that would be providing access. Lemme ask the owner of the shop first. I'm sure he'll be okay with you knowing but I should check.

      We're no longer allowed to talk about things that are illegal? This is the censorship of knowledge.

    7. Re:Ignorants by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      It's illegal to put fuel in your car without Ford's permission. And Ford charges $3 per gallon for permission.

    8. Re:Ignorants by mwvdlee · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just remove all road signs for cities unless you get explicit written permission of all it's inhabitants.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    9. Re:Ignorants by meerling · · Score: 1

      Worse, you have to have a signed permit for each house you want to drive by, and each time you do so.

    10. Re:Ignorants by byornski · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure it's worse than that. Writing somebody's address down could be a copyright violation.Advertisements in a phone book are now illegal to copy onto a piece of paper. That is the car analogy to this law.

    11. Re:Ignorants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      For a car anology: You can't tell people how to get somewhere in their, nor what they will pass along the way, without permission from the destination and locations passed.

    12. Re:Ignorants by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A library analogy works. Those big cabinets or computer lookup systems for places where you can find books? All copyright infringement.

      --
      while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
    13. Re: Ignorants by TWX · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Car analogy? Ok - I'll give it a shot.

      This is like claiming you are trespassing on my land, because some windblown dirt landed on the highway and you drove across it.

      Why do you need an analogy?

      If you put something onto the Internet then you published it. A hyperlink to what you published is the other party citing you as a source. Not only historically has it not been bad to cite sources, it has been considered good to cite sources and has been considered good to inform others of work that the informer feels should be read.

      That anyone anywhere could get into trouble for hyperlinking to something on the Internet is absurd. If the creator of the work doesn't want others to read or reference it then they need to either not publish it for all to read, or they need to use mechanisms like authentication to prevent access to the content. Hell, they could even look at the referrer and if it's not one of their authorized domains, redirect to an entry-point page. Basically there are already ways of avoiding being linked-to if the publisher wants to avoid being linked-to.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    14. Re: Ignorants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What's more, citing a source is a direct disclaimer that I do not own nor am the creator of the cited work. Here is where you can find the cited work and who is responsible for it. The hyperlink does this, by providing both location and origin of the work linked to. I.e. somesite.com is the origin and work.htm is the location. Or it is a reference to a reference. If the EU wants to forbid hyperlinking without permission of the work creator, they need to ban citations as well. Good luck with that by the way, as although I'm sure students everywhere will be overjoyed with less work on their plates, the copyright holders won't be.

      As to the "avoid being linked to" bit, if you as a creator, do not want the world to interact with your works, then DON'T RELEASE THEM INTO THE WORLD. The world has no need for works that are forbidden from use. If you can't create a work without demanding total and complete control over society's use of that work, then DO NOT CREATE ANYTHING EVER AGAIN. Extreme? Yes, but so are your demands.

    15. Re: Ignorants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm going to be a pedant biker and note that there is no car in your proposed car analogy...

    16. Re: Ignorants by MarkH · · Score: 1

      Nice analogy mind of I use it in future?

    17. Re:Ignorants by martinfb · · Score: 1

      GOOD ONE - I like it! BTW: Do I need permission to quote you and/or the parent comment for this reply?! Or, will you be pursuing a copyright suit against me?

      --


      Self-importance and self-indulgence is the root of ALL evil.
    18. Re:Ignorants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dead on. Every citation in every book. Every citation in every legal document or scientific or scholarly paper.
      It's just dippy to bust people for giving credit.

    19. Re:Ignorants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Car analogy: making it illegal to communicate to anyone the make, model, or plates of a car without the owner's permission.

    20. Re:Ignorants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You may use any word that doesn't have the letters A,E,I,O, or U. Those are copyrighted by Sesame Street.

    21. Re: Ignorants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do you need an analogy?

      Because this is ./ and car analogies are a tradition here even when they don't make sense.

  4. Yay! by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

    Glad to know that the EU is run by lobbyists too.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    1. Re:Yay! by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      It's much worse, The Commission are an unelected unaccountable bunch of c**t bureaucrats who let the lobbyists write the laws, they continuously bombard the EU parliament with shit to see what sticks. They truly deserve to hang (like the UK tory govt).

      Unfortunately EU MEPs are not even sticking to the principles of their parties and super-groups that they belong to let alone representing the voters who put them in to parliament.

      3.3 million signatures against TTIP and still the c***s support it. Obama is worse though.

      Home - Stop TTIP Stop TTIP

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
  5. India is years ahead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    http://www.nextbigwhat.com/did... Some govt agencies in India adopted this practice way back in 2011

  6. Only criminals will use hyperlinks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'd read TFA, but I didn't want to do anything illegal by clicking the link.

    1. Re:Only criminals will use hyperlinks by gnupun · · Score: 1

      I wonder if this law is to counter Google News displaying links to news stories and eating e-newspaper's lunch.

      OTOH, since google search results is mainly links, won't it have to shut down because it can no longer display links related to your search? Without search, the internet is pretty much useless.

      They should do a compromise, and allow some links to be copyrighted while others should be linkable. Private, copyrighted links should be like "http://server/privatepage.html_priv"

    2. Re: Only criminals will use hyperlinks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is, as with most politicians, they are 60+ years old farts without any clue of tech still living in a bygone era. They literally print out emails and webpages to read them. I don't make that up.
      They have ZERO clie what they are doing and what the consequences are.

      All they want is to desperately protect old and obsolete industries (newspapers, taxis (Uber controversy in Europe), publishers, etc) at all costs.

    3. Re:Only criminals will use hyperlinks by ACE209 · · Score: 1

      They should do a compromise, and allow some links to be copyrighted while others should be linkable. Private, copyrighted links should be like "http://server/privatepage.html_priv"

      Or they shouldn't put their shit on the web when they don't want it linked.

      --
      "we are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."
    4. Re:Only criminals will use hyperlinks by gnupun · · Score: 1

      That's like saying, "if you don't want to be raped, don't leave your house."

    5. Re:Only criminals will use hyperlinks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope.

      No rape, you notice. A big difference right there.

      It's like "Don't jump in the lion cage if you don't want to get attacked by lions."

      No lions either, though. Though you DID do all the acts and could reasonably have forseen the consequences, unlike your rape joke there.

      But please explain why someone being told to take ANY responsibility for their actions is wrong and should be likened to tell women not to leave the house if they don't want to get raped. Should insurance cover you even if you leave the car with the key in and the doors unlocked as you pop inside the shop for a couple of hours, because otherwise you're blaming the victim?

      How about this: don't blame men for raping women and tell them not to rape if they don't want to be arrested for rape, that's like telling women what to wear if they don't want to get raped!

    6. Re:Only criminals will use hyperlinks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More like "if you don't want to have sex with strangers, don't place a classified ad on the Relax section".

  7. Sorry, dear hoster in the EU by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I cannot use your services anymore. Hosting anything on your machines has become a liability and we have to discontinue doing business with you. Fortunately, on the internet it matters jack shit where I put my files, so as long as you have insane politicians, this will be NOT YOU.

    If you don't enjoy losing business, get some politicians that think before they act.

    Signed,
    Former customer

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Sorry, dear hoster in the EU by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Dear Former customer, Our Russian and Chinese comrades will welcome you with open arms and a gun to your head, as will countries with piss poor hosting speeds, and countries which will be tapping your cables and feeding all your data back to the NSA borg.

      We hope you enjoy your new business partners and look forward to jacking up the price when you come crawling back to us.

      Sincerely,
      The lesser of evils.

    2. Re:Sorry, dear hoster in the EU by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      I hope you didn't e-mail them this. If hyperlinks become covered by copyright and only able to be linked to with the explicit consent of the site owner, then how long until e-mails are copyrighted and you can only type THEM out with the permission of the e-mail owner? (Yes, this sound like it'd reduce spam, but do you really think spammers are going to care about copyright law?)

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    3. Re:Sorry, dear hoster in the EU by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      There are actually countries that managed to steer clear of it. Also, which "evil" you're willing to play with depends entirely on what you're hosting. If what you are hosting is public anyway, China's disadvantages vanish, as do Russia's. If you want to protect your assets from the reach of the US, Iran may be an option.

      The "evil" you are willing to accept only depends on the evil you want to defend against.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  8. Here's a link with much more detail about the law by JoeyRox · · Score: 3, Informative

    ::Hyperlink deleted due to violation of EU link sharing regulation::

  9. Yay Europe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Tell my again why we need to worship European government and solutions?

    1. Re:Yay Europe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The interest groups telling you to worship European governments are generally the same that push for these laws in Europe: European publishers, European politicians, European intellectuals, and their American acolytes.

      Nor is this bullshit new: for a couple of centuries now Europeans elites have been anti-American because the very existence of the US threatened their power.

    2. Re:Yay Europe by ACE209 · · Score: 1

      In this case its mainly the European publishers.

      Oh and btw. it's not so much anti-Americanism but being tired of the "We can do what the fuck we want" attitude of your glorious leaders.

      I'm sure there are plenty of decent americans. Just not in politics.

      --
      "we are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."
    3. Re:Yay Europe by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Well, to be fair, we kind of can do what the fuck we want. There's not a whole lot you can do about it. Are you going to send us a strongly worded letter? We fund your defense, medical research, and a goodly amount of science. We've also got a fairly adept, and recently active, combat-efficient military. There's not a whole lot you can do except for whine a little and maybe stop sending us a fruitcake for Christmas.

      It's not that I don't agree with you it's just that it's, sadly, true. My country is run by bullies who have invested a great deal in being able to bully. Don't blame me - I vote third party almost exclusively. I sympathize with your plight and I hope my country calms down but there's not a whole lot I can do, as an individual. I wish things were different but I'm not sure how they could be. It seems that power, inevitably, attracts those who would abuse it. I know of no way to change the human psyche.

      And, before suggesting we emulate Europe... I'd like to remind you that you bomb yourselves into rubble, consider 1984 to be a reference manual, and have relied on the US, in a variety of ways, to achieve and maintain the society that you do have - up to, and including, having us pay for your defense and rebuilding your countries after you've destroyed them. You certainly have some fine qualities but are not, either, without flaws. Nationalism and jingoisms have no place in a decent, constructive, conversation.

      I'm not sure how you deal with a bully, such as my country, effectively. I'd suggest distancing and insulation. I'd suggest ensuring your own defenses and asking us to remove our bases as a start. We'll do that, I imagine. We might whine but I think we'll do it without conflict. If you're willing to give up those protections then, maybe, you can start at distancing yourselves and reducing your dependencies. I imagine it will be a lengthy process, unless you want to try to duke it out, and there's likely to be some pain involved.

      Given that the US subsidizes a great deal of your economies, it should be interesting to see how this works. Reducing your reliance will take some investments but may be productive over the long-term. You certainly have the capacity, intellectually and resource-wise, to do great things. You'll end up spending a great deal more in areas like medical research, defense preparation and maintenance, and even in the pure science realm. This could be a good thing and increase the amount of diversity in those areas.

      So, yes... My country is a big asshole bully. I'm sorry about that and I'm trying to change it. If you could actually do a few things to help, we might be able to resolve this peacefully. Sure, you can try the 'stand up to the bully' adage but I'm not sure how well that will work out for you, honestly. I'd recommend it but I'd recommend doing it with out violence. Treat the US like a big, dumb, slow animal - speak slowly, softly, and don't startle it. Good God, don't startle the beast.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  10. Is this a euromyth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Living in the UK I experience a constant trickle of Euromyth nonsense, straight bananas, covering up barmaids breasts, bombay mix, the eurosausage etc etc etc. So maybe this will become a real thing and the eurosceptics will have successfully cried wolf enough time for people to not notice the tiger in the living room. But I doubt it.

    1. Re:Is this a euromyth by jandrese · · Score: 1

      Yeah, this smells like some crazy thing someone brought up in committee and will go nowhere. You get these kinds of stories from the US all the time too. State legislature votes to declare Pi to be exactly 3! But really it was one stupid thing one person said and went nowhere.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    2. Re:Is this a euromyth by HiThere · · Score: 1

      The original story was a lot more amusing than that. The bill actually got entered into the legislative calendar, but nobody could understand it, so they referred it to the committee on swamps, where it died. (And it started when an author(?) of a math textbook offered to donate his royalties to the state if they would just adopt this bill [and, IIRC, make his book the state's official math text].)

      I'm sure there was more to the story, but that's all I ever heard the details on. There may even have been a religious angle, because there's a place in the Bible where the value of pi *is* stated to be 3. (A circular vessel with such a diameter and such a circumference. It's somewhere around Solomon.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    3. Re:Is this a euromyth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      there's a place in the Bible where the value of pi *is* stated to be 3

      Only when you intentionally ignore parts of what it says there.

      1 Kings 7:23:

      Then he made the Sea (or "reservoir") of cast metal. It was circular in shape, 10 cubits (445 cm) from brim to brim and 5 cubits (222.5 cm) high, and it took a measuring line 30 cubits (1335 cm) long to encircle it.

      On first glance, that looks like "pi is exactly 3!", but first glances are nearly always wrong. This is no different. There are two details to consider.

      First, there's the first part of verse 26:

      And its thickness was a handbreadth

      A handbreadth is about 7.4cm. Thus, it raises questions about where the measurements "from brim to brim" are being taken. Is this outside diameter, inside diameter, or some (mostly useless) combination of the two? The Bible is not specific about that.

      Then there's the fact that it states that this measurement is "from brim to brim". A brim is either an upper rim of a liquid container, as in this case, or a protruding lower edge of a hat. Now think about every decorative cup or bowl you've ever seen. Is the brim wider than the main container? You bet it is. So the main container is 30 cubits in circumference, but the brim diameter is much wider, at 10 cubits.

      So between the non-specific statements of measurement and the very likely difference between the measurements of the main body of the vessel and the top edge of the vessel, this "pi is 3 because the Bible says so" malarkey is, well, malarkey.

      TL;DR: Pi is not 3 and the Bible does not say that it is.

    4. Re:Is this a euromyth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Living in the UK I experience a constant trickle of Euromyth nonsense from europhiles and apologists. The whole corrupt stinking mess is full of troughers and trouser stuffers and paid sock puppets and the accounts haven't been signed off by auditors for years. MEP's have no power and the EU parliament is a sham. It is totally undemocratic and unaccountable and legislation can be bought by lobbyists, so if there is big money behind this proposal it could go a lot further than you think. Article 20 of the TPD is testament to that. It is high time that the whole rotten edifice was kicked into the dustbin of history where it belongs.

    5. Re:Is this a euromyth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I dunno, the EU brought us the Cookie consent nonsense and the right to be forgotten so it seems right within their domain to come up with this.

    6. Re:Is this a euromyth by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      I'm sure there was more to the story, but that's all I ever heard the details on.

      Indeed. The bill in question was NOT intended to define pi to be 3.0, the math in the bill actually defined pi to be 9.0. Which is probably why noone understood it....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    7. Re:Is this a euromyth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There was a court case in the UK where a website was providing hyperlinks to online bootleg copies of TV series episodes like Battlestar Galactica, Lexx and all those other series. This was compared to providing a list of homes with no home security to burglars.

      But a hyperlink could be encoded using the old UNIX utilities, uuencode, uudecode. It could be converted into a "forbidden prime number" just like DeCSS or even a mathematical equation A * B + C

      It could also be converted into a barcode or one of those two dimension barcodes. So either all those would have to be copyrighted as well.

    8. Re:Is this a euromyth by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      No religious angle in this one.

      The pi=3 in the bible thing is half-true. There is a circular vessel described in those ratios, but this was a vessel made with ancient techniques, not precision manufacturing. It was just a little misshapen, or the measurements not performed with perfect accuracy.

    9. Re:Is this a euromyth by chthon · · Score: 1

      Seems like a move of Bloody Stupid Johnson

    10. Re:Is this a euromyth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what is "nonsense" about cookie consent? It's my computer, you need permission to access it and put your crap on it.

      And what's bad about the right to be forgotten? It's a requirement for anonymity. Hell, it's why all crimes aren't life sentences: we forgive and forget their misdeeds. It's part of your system. Are you against it? Why?

    11. Re: Is this a euromyth by MarkH · · Score: 1

      I strongly support a free trade Europe. But these dufus heads in that pseudo parliament with too much time on hand do not help.

    12. Re:Is this a euromyth by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Good and valid points, but not ones I've ever heard raised before. I'd need to go back and read the text again to be certain, and it's not going to change the popular arguments. (But I will be less certain that the bible intentionally stated that pi was three in the future.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    13. Re:Is this a euromyth by HiThere · · Score: 1

      I suspect the points raised by a different poster are the correct answer:
      1) The measurements were approximate, and
      2) The measurements weren't taken at corresponding places on the edge.

      The vessel may have been made by antique methods, but it was done by Phoenician craftsmen, who could make accurate circular figures if they cared to. (I can't remember the exact group of Phoenicians, but perhaps they were from Tyre.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  11. Is someone bored? by Tillison · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Of all of the things on a very long list in Europe and beyond, have these politicians really nothing better to do than this? I can't help but refer back to an old friend of mine who wisely said, "if it doesn't make sense, the answer is money".

    1. Re:Is someone bored? by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 4, Informative

      Of all of the things on a very long list in Europe and beyond, have these politicians really nothing better to do than this?

      This doesn't originate with politicians, it comes from corporate lobbyists for publishers, newspapers, etc. Those corporations hold a lot of power in Europe and they are seeing their business models and fortunes destroyed by the Internet. And since politicians in Europe are highly dependent on the goodwill of these publishers (not having a lot of other channels for reaching voters), they respond to this kind of pressure.

    2. Re:Is someone bored? by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      " Those corporations hold a lot of power in Europe"...actually, they hold LESS power in the EU than they do in the US, were in some aspects they are considered on the same level (and above) than actual citizens. Corporations in the USA also have "free speech", and are allowed to spend money in political campaigns as much as they want. They also have religious beliefs, like how the Hobby Lobby corporation successfully argued it's "closely held beliefs" said certain birth control is actually an abortion even though medical science proves otherwise. Corporations can kill thousands of people, destroy ecosystems, yet there is no "death penalty" for corps that's been used since the trust busts. And in other countries, corps have more power than the local government including their own armed forces.

    3. Re:Is someone bored? by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 2

      Corporations in the USA also have "free speech", and are allowed to spend money in political campaigns as much as they want. They also have religious beliefs

      "Corporations" have those rights in the US because individuals have them. That is, I don't lose my right to free speech or campaign contributions or conduct my business according to my religion just because I choose to run my business as a corporation. In Europe, corporations don't have those rights because individuals don't have those rights either; the European system is much more corrupt and serves the ruling elites much better.

      But "rights" aren't the same as "power" anyway. European corporations don't need to bother with free speech or campaign contributions, since they are in bed with their governments in much more direct ways. Many large corporations in Europe are partly state owned. Just look at VW, which has a lengthy history of joint ownership between Porsche and various German governments, starting with the Nazis. And unlike US corporations, which are largely public, a lot of powerful European corporations are privately held and hidden behind a web of shell companies and other such mechanisms.

      actually, they hold LESS power in the EU than they do in the US, were in some aspects they are considered on the same level (and above) than actual citizens.

      You don't know what you are talking about.

    4. Re:Is someone bored? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      Individuals do have those rights in the EU. The European Convention on Human Rights is just as legally binding as the American Bill of Rights.

      It's just as annoying for the governments too - here in the UK the government has spent over a decade dragging their feet over giving voting rights to prisoners, something required under European law but strongly opposed by most in the UK. The EU doesn't actually have much in the way of enforcement powers, so the UK has been able to defy the court ruling simply by agreeing they will change the law eventually but not committing to a timeframe.

    5. Re:Is someone bored? by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Back home, in the State of Maine, they actively have a sort of voting drive for prisoners. They register to vote, if not already registered, and vote in the town vote where they legally resided before being incarcerated. They vote via absentee ballot. Quite a number of prisoners vote. The prisoners vote at a higher percentage rate than the free citizens vote. I imagine the rate is higher because they're bored but that's conjecture. I don't imagine that anyone has done a study on it.

      Anyhow, the vote in local, state, and federal elections on a regular basis. There was a drive in the 1990s to raise awareness - there was a lot of misconception about voter rights being removed, prior to this. The State actually funded an awareness campaign and continues to fund it at a smaller level.

      Source: My campaign manager. Somewhere, in my troves of email, I actually have his reply with a bunch of details. It would appear that there's even a method for polling inmates but I've not given that any additional thought.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    6. Re:Is someone bored? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Prisoners in most countries fall into the 'acceptable target' group - those people who are so loathed that the public actively wants them to suffer, and will celebrate everything inflicted upon them.

      There was a fair amount of outrage in Wisconsin a few years back about prisons buying air conditioning - a few politicians spoke in anger that government money was being used to make prisoners feel comfortable and had enough influence to outright forbid it, even though temperatures inside some prisons were reaching the point that they could be potentially lethal. Eventually the ACLU got involved and got a court to rule that requiring prisoners to swelter in temperatures that could kill them was cruel and unusual punishment.

      Views of prisoners in the UK are not dissimilar: The general perception is that they broke the law and they must be made to suffer as much as is legally possible, and then a bit more. There is never any sympathy for them. So the suggestion that they be allowed to vote is met with strong opposition from all levels of government. It's also become a rallying point for those calling for the UK to exit the EU.

    7. Re:Is someone bored? by KGIII · · Score: 1

      I never will understand that. My head just doesn't work that way. Their freedom was taken, that's enough punishment. You to go prison as punishment, not for punishment. *sighs*

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    8. Re:Is someone bored? by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Individuals do have those rights in the EU. The European Convention on Human Rights is just as legally binding as the American Bill of Rights.

      Just because a document lists those rights doesn't mean people actually have them. The ECHR lists numerous exceptions to free speech; a few of them are protection of morality, protecting the reputation and rights of others, prevention of disorder. That isn't "free speech", it's a self-glorifying legal facade. Socialist East Germany had stronger guarantees of "free speech" than that. Even Russia falls under the ECHR. And even if the ECHR wasn't mostly puffery, it can't simultaneously guarantee all the rights it claims to guarantee because they are in mutual conflict.

      It's just as annoying for the governments too - here in the UK the government has spent over a decade dragging their feet over giving voting rights to prisoners, something required under European law but strongly opposed by most in the UK.

      So let me get this straight: the UK government does what UK voters want it to do, but that contradicts the ECHR, yet the EU cannot actually force them to comply with the ECHR, and that is why Europe has free speech and freedom of association! Well, I'm convinced now!

      In any case, all of this is besides the original point, which is that legislation as described in TFA originates with powerful corporate lobbyists in Europe because the dying buggy whip industries in Europe want protectionist legislation from their governments, and they frequently get it. And they also get it because they can manipulate the dopey chauvinistic European masses into supporting them.

    9. Re:Is someone bored? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      "The ECHR lists numerous exceptions to free speech; a few of them are protection of morality, protecting the reputation and rights of others, prevention of disorder."

      The US Supreme Court has also ruled that all three of those are not covered by the first amendment under certain circumstances. You can still be sued for libel there.

      "The UK government does what UK voters want it to do, but that contradicts the ECHR, yet the EU cannot actually force them to comply with the ECHR, and that is why Europe has free speech and freedom of association!"

      Meanwhile the US continues to detain people for upwards of a decade in a secretive prison in Cuba without trial and using evidence they are not permitted to see. Rights are worth no more than can be enforced, and it's very hard to constrain the actions of a government in any country. The US constitution and the ECHR both make the effort, and both are partially effective.

    10. Re:Is someone bored? by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      The US Supreme Court has also ruled that all three of those are not covered by the first amendment under certain circumstances.

      False.

      You can still be sued for libel there.

      What does that have to do with free speech?

      Meanwhile the US continues to detain people for upwards of a decade in a secretive prison in Cuba without trial and using evidence they are not permitted to see.

      https://yourlogicalfallacyis.c...

    11. Re:Is someone bored? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      1. US obscenity law. The supreme court has ruled many times that obscene material is not legally a form of speech.
      2. The US does have defamation law. Is it really free speech if someone can sue you and ruin you financially for saying something insulting?
      3. The 'fire in a crowded theatre' example is a textbook case of speech being limited for public safety.

      I am not trying to argue that the US is some oppressive regime. I am trying to argue that they are directly comparable to Europe in terms of effective legal protections for individuals and legal recognition of their rights. They both have their frameworks, they both sort-of-work most of the time, and they are both subject to very similar exceptions and issues of enforcement where some governments or parts of government will outright ignore their own laws at times. In terms of which is more 'free' it's really difficult to say one way or the other. It depends which freedoms you value the most.

      Any 'absolute' right without exception is a recipe for trouble - and two of them becomes impossible, because they will inevitably conflict at some point. I might claim an absolute right to free speech, but my neighbour then claims an absolute right to freedom of religion, and his religion demands blasphemers be executed. You can't have both: One or the other must be constrained.

    12. Re:Is someone bored? by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      3. The 'fire in a crowded theatre' example is a textbook case of speech being limited for public safety. 2. The US does have defamation law. Is it really free speech if someone can sue you and ruin you financially for saying something insulting?

      In both cases, there is no law that prohibits you from engaging in the speech. However, of course, if you engage in speech that actually causes harm, then you can be held responsible for the harm you caused. That is not a restriction on free speech.

      Note that many European libel and defamation laws are a restriction on free speech, since the punish the speech per se, independent of any demonstrable harm.

      1. US obscenity law. The supreme court has ruled many times that obscene material is not legally a form of speech.

      This is the only restriction that could even be argued to be a restriction on free speech in the US. SCOTUS has been whittling this down and it has no basis in the US Constitution. It isn't comparable to the ECHR phrasing.

      I am trying to argue that they are directly comparable to Europe in terms of effective legal protections for individuals and legal recognition of their rights.

      No, they are not. Free speech (and other individual liberties) are much more restricted in Europe than in the US.

      Any 'absolute' right without exception is a recipe for trouble - and two of them becomes impossible, because they will inevitably conflict at some point. I might claim an absolute right to free speech, but my neighbour then claims an absolute right to freedom of religion, and his religion demands blasphemers be executed. You can't have both: One or the other must be constrained.

      That is because you are mixing up positive and negative rights. The US Constitution guarantees free speech and freedom of religion only in the sense that "Congress shall make no laws...". There is no logical contradiction between "Congress shall make no laws restricting freedom of speech" and "Congress shall make no laws restricting free exercise of religion"; it's easy to comply with both. That's the classical liberal view of law and government underlying the US Constitution.

      Contradictions only arise when you think of these as positive rights, as in "The government shall compel religious tolerance", "The government shall ensure that people can speak freely", "People have a right to earn a fair wage", etc. Those kinds of rights are popular with modern liberals, fascists, socialists, and progressives. As you observe, they are mutually contradictory. Since they are mutually contradictory, they are pretty much worthless as principles of government, since pretty much any infringement on any one of these positive rights can be justified by some other positive right.

      Europe gets it wrong by elevating positive rights to a constitutional principle; that's an inherently inconsistent basis for a society. The constitutional principles of the US only guarantee freedom from interference by the US government; positive rights are not rooted in the US Constitution, and often simply represent temporary exceptions that sooner or later will have to get struck down in light of the US Constitution.

    13. Re:Is someone bored? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      "In both cases, there is no law that prohibits you from engaging in the speech. However, of course, if you engage in speech that actually causes harm, then you can be held responsible for the harm you caused. That is not a restriction on free speech."

      So, you can say what you want, but if you say the wrong thing then the government will bring down the force of law upon you to punish you? That seems like a restriction to me, and at this point we're only arguing semantics. Who gets to define harm? Remember that Russia has criminalised all advocacy of gay rights by declaring that such speech is harmful to society.

      Your 'classical view' of positive and negative rights is simplistic. There are plenty of forces other than government that are eager and able to suppress the rights of others with violence or intimidation - and one function of government is to limit their ability to do so. All you do is exchange one oppressor for another. There are some rights which do not require simply restricting government, but also forcing government to act in certain ways, like the ideal of equality under the law - which can only be achieved if government agents are compelled to set their personal views aside and treat everyone according to the same rules. Without that one you end up with Kim Davis officials who simply refuse to serve those they disagree with, or police who will turn a blind eye if their own friends are caught in illegal activity. Some rights can only be exercised under conditions that require government action to maintain - there's little point in having freedom of the press if media consolidation puts the press in the hands of only a few people, and there's no point in the right to a fair trial if the accused does not have access to legal representation as such a trial cannot be fair.

      You seem to have fallen into the classic trap of American politics - viewing a complex issue in terms the liberal-conservative divide. It's a very real divide in American political culture, but it's also limiting - neither side is right on all issues, both sides are wrong on some issues, and there are many cases where members of one faction leap to condemn a point of view purely because it is endorsed by their bitter enemy.

    14. Re:Is someone bored? by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      So, you can say what you want, but if you say the wrong thing then the government will bring down the force of law upon you to punish you?

      No, government can't bring down the force of law upon you. In the US, these are civil actions. Only a party with standing can bring action against you, and they can't do so for your speech per se, but only demonstrable damage.

      Remember that Russia has criminalised all advocacy of gay rights by declaring that such speech is harmful to society.

      Yes, and that is a restriction on free speech because that is criminal law. In general, criminal libel laws (like they exist in Europe) are a restriction on free speech. But civil action based on libel is not. There is an essential difference between criminal law, which penalizes behavior deemed to be generally harmful to society by politicians, and civil law, which adjudicates specific, identifiable harm done by one individual to another.

      Note that from a libertarian point of view, it is accidental and undesirable that government is involved in civil actions at all; we'd generally prefer private mechanisms of conflict resolution.

      Your 'classical view' of positive and negative rights is simplistic. There are plenty of forces other than government that are eager and able to suppress the rights of others with violence or intimidation - and one function of government is to limit their ability to do so.

      It isn't the job of government to ensure that you can speak free of negative consequences from your peers, for the simple reason that government cannot ever achieve that. And the more you try to burden government with that task, the more totalitarian your society becomes. In general, positive rights are frequently in irreconcilable conflict with one another, and those conflicts cause societies to fail since government deteriorates into a simple power struggle.

      There are some rights which do not require simply restricting government, but also forcing government to act in certain ways, like the ideal of equality under the law - which can only be achieved if government agents are compelled to set their personal views aside and treat everyone according to the same rules. Without that one you end up with Kim Davis officials

      Kim Davis is a government official implementing a positive right and abusing her position in the implementation of that right. The solution to that problem isn't to fabricate additional positive rights. The solution is to fire her sorry ass for violating existing law, and then have a discussion about eliminating her job and the positive rights she was responsible for implementing.

      You seem to have fallen into the classic trap of American politics - viewing a complex issue in terms the liberal-conservative divide. It's a very real divide in American political culture,

      I grew up in cold war Europe, and have lived in half a dozen countries. I assure you that my political views are not based on simplistic American politics, but rather by observing repeatedly first hand the failures of European-style paternalistic government and European totalitarianism.

  12. On the term "Actor" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dear Poster who commented on the term "actor" being deliberately used as a euphemism to desensitize people to the harsh realities of war, baby killers, and hospital bombers:

    Still think that's why people use the word?

  13. Car analogies are all wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The analogy is roads. Imagine micromanaging all road traffic because someone, somewhere, will use the roads for criminal activity.

  14. IMPOSSIBLE!!!! by Nutria · · Score: 1

    Europeans and *much* too progressively intelligent to pull a stunt this stupid. (At least that's what Europeans keep saying about themselves when America does something stupid.)

    --
    "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    1. Re:IMPOSSIBLE!!!! by Brett+Buck · · Score: 1

      No, they just can't admit they were wrong, and willingly walked into this buzzsaw.

    2. Re:IMPOSSIBLE!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are, which is why our corporate overlords invented the EU, to take the power away from the ordinary citizen and introduce the proper forums for back room dealing without undue interference and scrutiny.

  15. Walled Gardens by Iamthecheese · · Score: 2

    I don't mind the creation of walled gardens up to a point. The death of AOL taught us that people will migrate to free networks when they're available. What I'm worried about is that a walled garden will be created that has the infrastructure for total coercive control over speech but generally does not exercise it. In practical terms this will almost be free speech and will be used at first to control only the least popular (legal) speech. Piracy, rape porn, Doxxing. People will say "nothing of value was lost". Until the grip tightens and "doxxing" turns into "publishing the real-world associations of a journalist". And "Rape porn" turns into "porn without obvious enthusiastic consent". And "Piracy" turns into "violation of draconian copyright laws". Soon enough there will be a huge struggle to convince people of the danger. Free speech advocates will be labeled conspiracy loons. And we'll have to create new mesh networks just to permit vibrant debate. Oh wait...

    --
    If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
    1. Re:Walled Gardens by tepples · · Score: 1

      I don't mind the creation of walled gardens up to a point. The death of AOL taught us that people will migrate to free networks when they're available.

      Not always, as people who play video games still tend to buy consoles more often than building a gaming PC for the living room. And as far as I can tell, they buy a Nintendo 3DS rather than a MOGA clip-on gamepad for an existing Android phone. What makes walled gardens so much more acceptable for games than otherwise?

    2. Re:Walled Gardens by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple's App Store and Google Play are both Walled Gardens of a sort (though the barrier to entry is low and games can technically be released to Android without Google Play). The entry is so low that complete crap is released. The consoles are upscale compared to them.

      Publishers filter out bad writers (they also sometimes filter out good writers that they don't consider marketable).

      Netflix and other video services are flooded with low-budget movies, but Hollywood still makes blockbuster movies. (Speaking of which, the audience for movies has changed over the years and the movies studios has changed with it.)

      It's not about being open, it's about giving people what they want. People get pissed off when they don't get what they want (for instance, unmetered Internet access). If FaceBook or Google become stinking piles of manure, people will abandon them, no matter how open they are.

    3. Re:Walled Gardens by KGIII · · Score: 1

      It makes me wonder... Should I, as an individual, have the right to restrict others from even linking to my content?

      Note: I can't really think of any reason why I, personally, would want such a thing but I'm thinking that maybe, I should have that right. I'd just use access control but, you know...

      I'm sure that the idea would offend some of us Slashdotters. However, I'm not sure why they'd want to argue that the rights of the individual should not be increased or maintained. (I imagine, and am pretty sure, that this would be an increase in individual rights as it is not now a specifically enumerated right.)

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  16. It will never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is a bs story.
    Similar to the everybody must pay jpeg tax paranoia 15 years ago

    1. Re:It will never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, there's not much similary to jpeg tax paranoia, that made much more sense. This is just plain and simple malicious propaganda against EU.

      It was rather insightfully noted in another comment, how this is caused by major corporations lobbying to defend their profits against the evils of Internet. It should be no surprise, that majority of those corporations are american. They might just have enough push to actually make something as retarded as this to be technically in a position to be "considered", but only a complete lunatic (or a complete idiot) would ever think there is more than one possible outcome.

    2. Re:It will never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Again, you Europeans need to figure out SOME what to blame Americans. Why don't you take credit for your own problems and FIX them instead of just blaming somebody else.

      Damn European "victims!"

    3. Re:It will never happen by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Why don't you take credit for your own problems and FIX them instead of just blaming somebody else.

      For the same reason they ask us to defend them and rebuild them from the rubble they inevitably bomb themselves into. I think the UK was the only one who actually paid back the money we loaned them for WWII. The US pretty much funded the rebuilding of much of Europe and got very little of that back. They exist by our good graces. It's like the whiny, petulant, child.

      I suspect the same would be true if the roles were reversed, however. It seems natural that being coddled will result in an inability to accept accountability. Much growth comes from hardship and the introspection that it encourages. When one grows up feeling entitled and being able to rely on others to fill their basic needs then it's only likely that they'll be unable and unwilling to take responsibility for themselves. This is likely true at the level of individual States and other government entities.

      However, this doesn't mean the US is free of faults and frailties. The US is straight up retarded and governed by ignorant, uncaring, monsters.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  17. FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone who has half a brain can instantly tell that this is simply spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Of course EU would never pass such a law, it would be stark raving mad.

    Real question is, what kind of a state is Slashdot in, to participate in spreading this s***?

    1. Re:FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You obviously aren't paying attention. Several European member states have already passed similarly "stark raving mad" laws, and Reda actually points to a draft proposal.

    2. Re:FUD by Teun · · Score: 1

      So you can't give us a link?

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    3. Re:FUD by ACE209 · · Score: 1
      --
      "we are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."
    4. Re:FUD by Teun · · Score: 1

      True, scarily close to the subject but while in parliament it was diluted to something still obnoxious but pretty much without teeth.
      German MP's are often quite close to economic powers, luckily the EU MP's (MEP's) are more independent.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  18. I don't control the other end of a link by eyebits · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I make a legal and permitted link to some content. Then, the content at that URI is changed to something I am no longer legally allowed to link to. Am I committing a crime? I don't control what a URI points to. The owner of the server does.

    1. Re:I don't control the other end of a link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Time for rickrolling!

    2. Re:I don't control the other end of a link by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 2

      I make a legal and permitted link to some content.

      Say no more! GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY!

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    3. Re:I don't control the other end of a link by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Not that uncommon a situation if the link is to an image and the server admin grows annoyed.

      I've used that once - I posted a link to a humorous cartoon on Digg, back before the great exodus. A while later I found some Gaia Online profile that looked like a relic of the nineties had hotlinked to it. So I replaced the image with another image of a moderately offensive nature - nothing illegal, but enough to rather embarrass the profile owner.

      If I'd been feeling *really* evil, I'd have gone to the trouble of making a script that would return the original image only to the IP address I saw referring to it from the profile editing page. Then all his friends would have teased him about it and he wouldn't be able to see why.

    4. Re:I don't control the other end of a link by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Someone was using an image of mine on their various eBay listings. They were, of course, hotlnking it. Now, I could have been okay with this. I could have just disabled hotlinking - even specifically limiting it to prevent eBay use via htaccess or whatnot. I could have had a nice conversation with them about email and maybe asked them to pay for the bandwidth (which was much more expensive at the time).

      I was a drinking man back then. What you imagine happened, probably did happen, in one form or another. It turns out it is possible to display the link fine if you go to the address while it is possible to display an entirely different image if the image is hotlinked and has a different referrer. Coupled with the eBay vendor having the image cached...

      They appear to have finally stopped but I got drunken emails telling me that I'd destroyed his business for quite some time after the fact. I don't know why he didn't just stop linking to the images but he kept doing so for about a month after I'd discovered it. I don't know if they've changed it but eBay used to not allow you to host images or the likes - there were even some image hosting sites that charged money and catered specifically to the eBay vendor crowd. The items sold were technical in nature so he should have been able to grasp the idea of uploading and linking the images. Ah well...

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  19. Thats the EU for you by mossy+the+mole · · Score: 1

    Sometimes they make a lot of sense, and sometimes they dont

    1. Re:Thats the EU for you by Archtech · · Score: 1

      When did they "make a lot of sense"? I missed it! I must have been in the bathroom.

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    2. Re:Thats the EU for you by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Well, when you're in the bathroom, You're a peein'!

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  20. Hyperlinks are citations by tepples · · Score: 1

    I view a hyperlink as a form of citation. If European periodical publishers don't want their articles to be cited in other works, let them live with a decrease in their impact factor.

    1. Re:Hyperlinks are citations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure European publishers tremble in fear over your belief that a citation is like a hyperlink!

  21. Sorry, dear Opportunist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if you are think you will not be sued, that your assets will not be seized and that you will not be convicted, just because you host your website on servers not in the EU, think again.

    Signed,
    EU

    1. Re:Sorry, dear Opportunist by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      But I don't run the webpage. It's my good friend Ali Bengali from Generistan. We moved our whole office there. And we wish to offer your our thanks, for we didn't even know just how much cheaper it is to run operations from there before we were forced to look into it.

      signed,
      former employer of EU citizens

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Sorry, dear Opportunist by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      But I don't run the webpage. It's my good friend Ali Bengali from Generistan.

      Oh, so you're saying you conspired with Ali Bengali across international boundaries?

      Tsk tsk, that'll be 20 years all by itself, Mr Opportunist, if that even is your real name.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    3. Re:Sorry, dear Opportunist by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Of course it's not my name. It's the name of my corporation. Which is now moving away. You want to jail that loser we used to run it while staying with you? Cool idea, saves us the severance package. Yeah, you do that, of course, we want to cooperate with you fully!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:Sorry, dear Opportunist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tsk tsk, that'll be 20 years all by itself, Mr Opportunist, if that even is your real name.

      Feel free to come to Generistan to arrest me. Please call ahead so I can prepare an appropriate welcome. Never mind that, I'm always prepared.

    5. Re:Sorry, dear Opportunist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I run my business out of the US and host my servers there. While I understand that snoopers gonna snoop, I also understand that they'll be damned if they'll let the likes of your silly little also-ran confederation piss all over their home-grown business concerns.

      If you don't want to die in a nuclear fireball, back the fuck off.

      Signed,
      Business owners in the USA

    6. Re: Sorry, dear Opportunist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The EU's laws don't apply to what citizens do in other countrues who don't share thise rules. If an EU contemt owner sues me (in the US) for copyright infringement because I linked to some other guy's illegaly-hosted copy on lt Tumblr blog, exactly nothing happens beyond Tumblr remobing my post or my blog.

    7. Re: Sorry, dear Opportunist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, sorry for that hastily mistyped (on a smart phone) message. I'm embarrassed enough just imagining how I would disregard this opinion based on sloppiness alone, had I come across it in a thread. :-D

    8. Re: Sorry, dear Opportunist by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Only the anal whine and pretend to be upset about simple errors. The rest of us are so fluent in typo that we don't even notice. Hell, most of us don't even have a basic grasp of grammar, are unable to spell, and aren't willing to put much effort into our replies.

      I try to do so, not because I care about you but because I care about improving my writing skills. My writing skills are sorely lacking and this gives me something to do in my old age. If anything, I actually appreciate the 'Grammar Nazis." They help me improve my writing.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    9. Re:Sorry, dear Opportunist by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Feel free to come to Generistan to arrest me. Please call ahead so I can prepare an appropriate welcome. Never mind that, I'm always prepared.

      No problem, you can you do as much business as you want with the peasants in Generistan. Of course, we'll freeze every asset you have outside its borders, inspect or confiscate shipments in and out, and require that all other countries do the same against the rogue nation of Generistan as a condition for trading with us. And when that doesn't work, the long-suppressed opposition groups who have been trying to overthrow the government of Generistan will find themselves in possession of shiny new weapons and paramilitary training. Why, maybe one of their bullets might find their way into your shack despite you not being a government official.

      See how this works?

  22. The Internet needs to die by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    so it can be reborn.

    A series of fragmented "Internets" would allow the market to drive the right kind of decisions.

    I'm not sure the old BBS days were so bad.

    1. Re:The Internet needs to die by fred911 · · Score: 1

      I believe that TCP/IP was built to assure that markets can't control the network. Additionally the IETF's process has done a pretty good job of protocol ratification and (for the most part) kept the playing field level.

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
  23. Technical solution: browser based boycott by John+Allsup · · Score: 4, Interesting

    We need a robots.txt like file in the root which grants linking permission. Then in firefox have an option which flags unlinkable destination, and by default block such sites. Have the option in the first run dialog. Then actively campaign against sites whose copyright is not in the spirit of the open web, gpl style. Have an open web general license which permits only open web general sites to link to it. Word the license carefully. That is my thought.

    --
    John_Chalisque
    1. Re:Technical solution: browser based boycott by Archtech · · Score: 1

      I appreciate the spirit of your suggestion, but I feel very strongly that it would be a terrible mistake to give a single inch in the face of this horrible, iniquitous, and unbelievably ignorant proposal.

      Permission to follow links to a Web page is clearly implied by the decision to put up a Web page, and to allow access from the World Wide Web. Access to Web pages on a private intranet is forbidden by the same laws that forbid access to everything else on such a private network.

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    2. Re: Technical solution: browser based boycott by John+Allsup · · Score: 2

      The best defense is to make the law look stupid, and likewise those trying to take advantage of it. If Stallman refused to deal with copyright law and thus draft the gpl, much of the free software movement will not have happened. The idea of diagonalisation goes back a long way. When faced with silly laws, diagonalise them, as gpl and copyleft diagonalise copyright. I am just suggesting preparing to do likewise. If many immediately prepare such a diagonal response, maybe that will make it clear such a law is stupid. Then also demonstrate use of data compression techniques to programmatically construct links. Like water flows round obstacles, so the advance of freedom must flow round legislative stupidity.

      --
      John_Chalisque
    3. Re:Technical solution: browser based boycott by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's a better solution: if you don't want your content to be linked to on the web, don't put it on the web to begin with!
      The whole purpose of HTML is hyperlinking, that's what the H(ypertext) stands for...

  24. Treat the same as bibliographic references by grahammm · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The law should treat hyperlinks as being equivalent to bibliographical references and citations in printed works. After all, that is all a hyperlink is. That browsers automate the retrieval and display of the referenced work, rather than having to search the stacks or ask the librarian to fetch the book/journal, should not affect the status of the hyperlink. As for banning them, I personally think that most web pages do not take enough advantage of hyperlinks within the body of the pages.

    1. Re:Treat the same as bibliographic references by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      As for banning them, I personally think that most web pages do not take enough advantage of hyperlinks within the body of the pages.

      Most web pages, once they have you on the page, don't want you to leave by any route that doesn't pay them. So the links are ads and nothing else.

  25. Re: Technical solution: browser based boycott - my by John+Allsup · · Score: 1
    --
    John_Chalisque
  26. A proposal that would destroy the Web by Archtech · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The World Wide Web has existed for about 25 years - quarter of a century. When it was first created, Tim Berners-Lee and his collaborators made a careful and considered decision to give the specifications away free (as in speech and as in beer). Not only was that the right thing, the ethical thing to do; it was in the spirit of the (then infant) FOSS movement; and last but not least, it was the best way to give the new-born Web wings and enable it to spread rapidly until it became truly worldwide.

    Today the Web has, at the very least, 47 billion pages (based on Google statistics). How many links do you think the average page has? This proposed legislation would destroy all possible confidence in using any one of those links. It would be the Internet equivalent of magically removing the foundations of every building in New York City. The effect on the Web would be similar to the effect of 9/11 on the World Trade Center - except that it would affect over a billion people and virtually every business and government in the world.

    If anyone does not wish to have people view his Web pages through links from other pages, he has a simple remedy: DON'T PUT UP A WEB SITE. If you do choose to gain the benefits of putting up a Web site, then DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT THE WAY IT WORKS.

    Here is TBL's considered view of the status of links, posted in 1997:

    http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues...

    TBL wrote: "The ability to refer to a document (or a person or any thing else) is in general a fundamental right of free speech to the same extent that speech is free. Making the reference with a hypertext link is more efficient but changes nothing else... Users and information providers and lawyers have to share this convention. If they do not, people will be frightened to make links for fear of legal implications. I received a mail message asking for "permission" to link to our site. I refused as I insisted that permission was not needed".

    And here is his conclusion:

    "There are some fundamental principles about links on which the Web is based. These are principles allow the world of distributed hypertext to work. Lawyers, users and technology and content providers must all agree to respect these principles which have been outlined.

    "It is difficult to emphasize how important these issues are for society. The first amendment to the Constitution of the United States, for example, addresses the right to speak. The right to make reference to something is inherent in that right. On the web, to make reference without making a link is possible but ineffective - like speaking but with a paper bag over your head".

    --
    I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    1. Re:A proposal that would destroy the Web by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      whats the US Constitution got to do with the web and hyperlinks anyone would think they invented them !!

    2. Re:A proposal that would destroy the Web by KGIII · · Score: 1

      What if I, for some reason - the reason is immaterial, do not want you to link to my content?

      Now, I'd say the onus should be on me - I should have to do something like set a switch in the header or robots.txt file, for example, that indicates that I don't want to be linked to.

      I'll also add, I don't actually have a good reason for wanting to do this - I can't think of anything where I'd not just use access protections.

      So, if I wanted to - then should I be allowed the right to disallow linking to a specific page or pages?

      I'd say that I should be but that's because I'm a fan of personal liberties. The right is not, now, enumerated and that means that I don't currently get to make that choice. I'm a fan of allowing as much personal liberty (and that includes allowing the individual to make choices like this) as possible. While I am absolutely unable to think of a personal use-case for this, I could see this as an expansion of individual rights and that is almost certainly a good thing.

      Maybe I want you to be able to link to page A, B, and C but want you to have visited A, B, or C before visiting page D which means I don't want others circumventing this by linking to page D directly. Sure, there are ways to do that (or minimize it) but what gives one the right to link to page D against my wishes? The content is not your content nor is it up to you to decide how to use it.

      While certainly stupid - from a tech viewpoint, I'd have no problem with a protocol/standard that allowed someone to say, "Don't link directly to this page, thanks." Anything that increases the rights of the individual is a good thing, no? And no, it doesn't reduce someone else's rights, in any meaningful way. The content is not theirs.

      Is it antithetical to the idea behind the World Wide Web? Well, yeah... That's a given. That ideal was gone a long time ago. Can it be bypassed? Absolutely. Laws and regulations, and even standards, don't prevent anything. They provide frameworks and, perhaps, establish guidelines for legal recourse. Basically, it's a rights issue and, I've given this a little thought - not as much as I probably should, but I think I could get behind the idea of allowing someone to restrict the ability to link to content.

      I'd also add that the burden should be on the content provider to do so. The default assumption should be that putting it up means you are okay with someone linking to it. Unless the 'switch' is set to say "do not link directly" then the default is that linking is acceptable. This right does not currently exist. I am unable to think of any reasons why it can't or shouldn't exist. It doesn't break the web, it just gives someone more choices and more control of their property. I don't have a problem with that - I even see it as a good thing.

      And if a company sets this switch then, by all means, the search engines should respect it. I'm reasonably certain that you can see what the results of this would be. Let them be dismissed and fall out of favor. Maybe it will allow something better to grow in their place. I imagine they won't try it for very long. I see it being more useful for the individual, if anyone, than it would be for businesses. It'd be trivial to bypass and that negates the value for any content that needs protecting. Instead, it would be a protected right of the individual.

      Said individual should learn some access control methods but, meh...

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    3. Re: A proposal that would destroy the Web by MarkH · · Score: 1

      "On the web, to make reference without making a link is possible but ineffective - like speaking but with a paper bag over your head".

      Perfect quote

  27. Self-certified insane by Archtech · · Score: 1

    The only logical conclusion one can come to is this:

    It's time to abolish the European Union. It has done untold harm, and very little good (if any). When a government body proposes such sheer, raving insanity, it is signing its own suicide note.

    --
    I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    1. Re:Self-certified insane by Teun · · Score: 1

      Oh?
      That big rock you've lived under for the past 50-60 years must have damaged your brain.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  28. Catalogues in the library too? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Next up, libraries held liable for catalogues of their book holdings, which "provide access" to the place on the shelf where copyrighted works can be found.

  29. Do publishers have a hidden agenda? by Archtech · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I see from Julia Reda's article that she believes the main pressure for this cretinous measure is coming from publishers. They think, she says, that their income from advertising is shrinking too quickly.

    It is immediately obvious that publishers, as a group, would be perfectly delighted if the Web were to vanish tomorrow. They are under continuous severe pressure from Amazon and Google - Amazon sells their books at far lower prices than they would wish, and has established something close to a monopsony where it is the only wholesale purchaser and therefore can set its own terms. Meanwhile, Google Books is exposing vast amounts of what publishers consider their property (they don't have a high opinion of writers) to public scrutiny, without charge. Worst of all, a whole generation has grown up in the earnest belief that books and magazines, as such, are unnecessary; everything worth knowing can (they think) be found, free of charge, on the Web. Of course this isn't true, or even nearly true, but - as they say in business circles - "perception is all".

    The publishing industry is certainly going through hard times, and facing very difficult decisions. But taking the Web down with it is certainly not the answer. Everyone who is in a position to do so should let the EU know, in no uncertain terms, how frightful a proposal this is and just what its consequences would be, if implemented.

    --
    I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
  30. Use an url shortening site outside of the EU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They're not under EU jurisdiction, you aren't directly linking to another site.

    1. Re: Use an url shortening site outside of the EU by John+Allsup · · Score: 1

      Be more crafty. Have a link shortening site that requires easy but non trivial steps to get the right link.

      --
      John_Chalisque
  31. This is the best possible thing that could happen by Solandri · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The content industry has this enormous misconception about how the Internet works. They think it's like a street you drive down, the websites are like stores you pass by, and if you see an interesting store you stop by to visit. They opposed Google News aggregating snippets from news sites because they felt it was like Google was putting a big Google sign in front of their store.

    That's not how the Internet works. There is no independent road. The hyperlinks are the road. That is, you do not travel down a road passing by stores. You travel from store to store via hyperlinks. That entire network of hyperlinks connecting the stores is the Internet.

    If this law passes, the content industry thinks they can assert copyright over a hyperlink to their site, and the linking site will have to pay them a small copyright fee. In reality what will happen is the linking site will simply delete the hyperlink. The end result will be what happened when they tried to prevent Google News from linking their articles, times a million. Any site exercising copyright control over hyperlinks will be cutting themselves off from the Internet. First their Google Pagerank will plummet since it's based partly on how many other sites link to your site, and they'll disappear from the search engines. Eventually there will no longer be any way to navigate from the Internet at large to those sites, because all the hyperlinks to them have been deleted per their request. Exercising copyright over hyperlinks will be electronic suicide, and the only remaining sites will be ones which include a legal waiver that it is completely legal to link to their site.

    Please please please let this law pass!

  32. Let's all go back to Compuserve, AOL... by Rinikusu · · Score: 1

    And other closed gardens.

    Then again, that might not be a bad idea for some things.

    --
    If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
    1. Re:Let's all go back to Compuserve, AOL... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How was CompuServe a closed garden? All you had to do was fire up Mosaic or Netscape.

    2. Re:Let's all go back to Compuserve, AOL... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the time for 100% onion routing for everyone has come.

  33. There is a higher law by presidenteloco · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's called the law of the World Wide Web, and it comes down to us from the writings of the global prophet Tim.

    The actual wording of the law is too technical for mere mortals, being as it is written in ancient C code found on an artifact we think was called a hard drive dug up from the buried ruins of a cyclotron in what was once Switzerland.

    But the law can be paraphrased as:

    If you deposit your writings or your pictures on an HTTP or HTTPS server without access control
    - and thus allow your work to be served,
    (that is freely transferred by the standard world wide web protocols)
      to any of the computers attached to the great public Internet,
    - then you implicitly have created a holy URL by which your work can be accessed and copied,
    - and should you also allow the URL itself to be discovered over the Internet by the use of standard world wide web protocols,
    - THEN it is the law that:
    - any person or machine is allowed
    (as inherently enabled and implied by the fundamental nature of the technology as Tim intended it)
    - to republish that URL on any writings that they also cause to be served by the same standard protocols.
    - and to copy and read or view the writings or pictures that you made freely available by your action of publishing it on the World Wide Web.

    Thus is created the fundamental Web network nature of creation that we know as the World Wide Web.

    This is the first law of the Holy Interwebs. Bookmark it and do not lose it.

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
    1. Re:There is a higher law by ACE209 · · Score: 1

      Bookmark it and do not lose it.

      But don't forget to get a permission before bookmarking. A bookmark is a link too.

      --
      "we are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."
  34. Poem Links by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I, for one, post my links in the form of unique, bad poems, for which I hold the natural copyright. An example: Slash that dot for the com is near, discussion front is always dear; There is not right, there is no wrong, so forward with the http://

  35. Re:This is what you get. XXX on idea exchange by BoRegardless · · Score: 1

    Government run amok again. Control and tax everything.

  36. Re:This is the best possible thing that could happ by Ice+Tiger · · Score: 1

    I was going to post exactly this, anyone who enforces this will simply vanish from the Internet. In fact EU content providers should be fighting this as even the existence of such a law could diminish external linking.

    --
    "Because we are not employing at entry level, offshoring will kill our industry stone dead."
  37. Re:This is what you get. XXX on idea exchange by Brett+Buck · · Score: 1

    And in this case, the people involved willingly walked into it, basically, demanded that this sort of control be ceded to the faceless unelected bureaucrats. No one to blame but themselves.

  38. Re:This is the best possible thing that could happ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, that's not what will happen. The Internet will turn into cable TV where you pay outrageous rates for a few popular sites and get a bunch of others thrown in too, just enough to keep the average person from complaining or switching. Media companies will love this. Retailers will love this. Everyone will love it except customers. If Walmart is able to out bid Amazon on a specific Internet provider, then everyone forced to use that provider by their physical location will also be forced to make almost all online purchases from Walmart. The bigger companies will be able to buy monopolies with no chance of someone else toppling them.

    During the transition to that, Google will be forced to pay. Everyone will stop using Google if it stops bringing them to the sites they want. If many of the popular sites cut deals with Microsoft and you'd only find them on Bing, then the average person will switch to Bing. As Google basically only has one product, ads, the company will be destroyed. So Google will have to pay to keep itself alive.

    Please please please eject anyone supporting this from the government.

    AOL, Compuserver, etc... are all dead or dying. Please lets not repeat that section of history.

  39. Shaking head by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The amount of bullshit that comes from Brussels is just astronomical. It's amazing how a 'government' can
    act so completely beside facts and reality. The EU is already a walking dead.

  40. Re:This is what you get. XXX on idea exchange by Teun · · Score: 1

    I feel I have to repeat myself:

    The commission is appointed by the democratic member states, a bit like how in many countries the government is appointed by the elected parliament.
    See, outside of the UK you don't need to be a member of parliament to get a seat in the government, get used to it, it works fine.

    --
    "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  41. Re:This is the best possible thing that could happ by kheldan · · Score: 1

    Actually I think the effect of an ill-conceived law like this would be even worse: Since it's links, then all search engines wouldn't be allowed to list their sites; they would essentially disappear from the Internet almost immediately. You'd already have to know about the site in question, and be able to type it in from the keyboard from memory, as it sounds like even emailing a link to someone would be considered a violation. The effect would be almost comical, if it wasn't so sad: You'd have thousands, maybe millions of sites, suddenly panicking because their daily hits immediately go to almost zero.

    --
    Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
  42. Re: This is what you get. XXX on idea exchange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Any time you make an official's position further from an election (e.g. An election --> parliamentary body --> committee --> appointee) you increase likelihood of corruption with *every* additional step.

  43. Ok everybody. Here's how it works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Want to fuck the world up? Let politician puppets of corporations run things. See today's world as proof. As you can see they're not done fucking it up even moreso yet. I rest my case.

  44. Bro do you even by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    robots.txt?

  45. Re:This is the best possible thing that could happ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I work in the content industry for a major news provider. We understand how the internet works very, very well. Most of the experts work for us, never forget that.

    What people like you don't understand is that the content industry would be quite happy to see the internet implode. Our CEOs remember when they made big, big money selling copy (look up the Hearst estate some time). Our editors remember when they were king makers; they used to be called the fourth branch of government. The internet ended that.

    My company is an online leader, we haven't made a profit in a decade. Before the internet we were a regional paper, and made a healthy profit every year. If something came along that had a massive chilling effect on the internet, well I'd lose my job but I bet all the other departments in the company would be quite happy about it.

  46. Citation Impossible by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

    I was tempted to cite something interesting, but I realised I didn't have enough money to pay a lawyer to see whether it was legal to do so or whether I could get a license to do so.

    In reality I would appreciate a list of the bill's sponsors and then just blacklist them, so we don't accidentally make their content linkable.

    --
    Jumpstart the tartan drive.
  47. Who makes a hyperlink? by a+whoabot · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The person who puts the <a></a> tags around it? Or the person who chooses to interpret (or chooses to use an interpreter that interprets) those tags as a hyperlink?

  48. Aha! So you're the bastards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The ones that are poisoning the internet with all the botnets and viruses. You have revealed yourselves! Wouldn't surprise me one bit. Follow the money.

  49. Sight ... by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

    To make something like this happening you need to rewrite all the existing copyright law, Bern Convention etc.
    So: this is never going to happen.
    Anyone who had a clue knew: either the story is completely made up or the initiative is doomed to fail because it comes from a wacko.

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  50. Re:This is the best possible thing that could happ by locofungus · · Score: 1

    So does that mean that google news doesn't honour robots.txt?
    .

    --
    God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
  51. You are forbidden from clicking my link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously I am warning you. Under no circumstances are you allowed to click my reply link.

  52. Re:This is the best possible thing that could happ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They could list it couldn't they? Wouldn't they just have to make the URL plaintext, not wrapped in an anchor tag (and presumable place instructions to copy and paste the URL into your browser's address bar)?

  53. Lost revenue? by rholtzjr · · Score: 1

    And websites were bitching about lost revenue from Ad Blockers?
    ROFL

  54. Hypolinks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So... instead of having active URLs, sites will have copy-it-yourself-to-your-address-bar URLs. A bit stoneage, but then that's where the guys with such ideas come from. One would then install a browser extension to automate that copy/paste. The URLs would become blue and clickable, something akin to hyperlinks, but not called that. Citation references activated by browser extension? :)

    And yet magnet links would probably not be covered, because they're not hyperlinks to anything, but are a small bunch of data that can be used to get a torrent file, which, in turn, doesn't hyperlink to the tracker and chunks.

    I'm sure whoever proposed this was thinking of sites that point to pirated content hosted on other sites, but fucked it all up. They want to go after all those Pirate Bay proxies that tunnel to the blocked Pirate Bay, which, in turn, provides magnet links (which could easily be non-hyper text), which are used then by your favourite torrent client to pull down a torrent file, which then tells the client how to get the pirated content down; and after all those sites where you can watch films online without torrenting (thus they can't get your on the "seed" technicality) which redirect you to video hosting sites which aren't pirate sites per-se but host the stupid film that you want to watch at the price of a thousand malware popunders. Because books have been using "hypolinks" in their bibliographies and footnotes since forever, and nobody sane would ban those.

  55. Re: This is what you get. XXX on idea exchange by dwywit · · Score: 2

    Nonsense. Australia appoints its public law enforcement officials - police chiefs, judges, public prosecutors & defenders, etc - and it works with minimal levels of corruption.

    Election of such officials - WITHOUT mandatory voting - just results in interest groups getting their preferred puppet installed, and sets up conditions that encourage corruption. When your continued employment depends on popularity instead of merit, you find ways legal and otherwise to maintain your popularity.

    --
    They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
  56. Re:This is the best possible thing that could happ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The experts work for you? Are you sure? Media web sites are the crappiest of them all: Slow, fragile, lots of cruft. Oh right, that's on purpose, so that the internet will implode... It doesn't work that way. Without the links, your sites will implode. The internet, even the web in particular, will be fine. The actual experts will make a simple technical standard by which a page author can allow linking from non-commercial and/or commercial web sites, and other options. This is of course a trap, because your bosses will think they have a choice and make stupid limitations on links. And this is why the commercial net is about to become completely beholden to search engines and other "gatekeepers", who will simply demand blanket permission to link, and get it. Nobody else will accept the risk though, so that's going to be it: Your worst enemies, Google and Facebook, will make you their bitch. Practice this: "Yes, Mr. Zuckerberg, at your service, Mr. Zuckerberg, right away, Mr. Zuckerberg."

  57. Is this shit for real? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    n/t

  58. Hyperlink by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you dont want the internet to work as intended stay off.
    We dont need you here.
    You can take you web site private.

    That is like me getting a car and saying I dont like left turns outlaw them.
    As some Dick actually saying OK.

  59. The EU.. by PPNSteve · · Score: 1

    Apparently the EU has access to way better mind-altering drugs than we here in the USA do..

    --
    PPN
    1. Re:The EU.. by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 1

      Absolutely! Due to the fact that we don't have the DMCA and no software patents we were able to design a drug to circumvent the 'common sense' software protection that used to govern the EU Commisioner's brain and replace it with something we call the 'Fox-mind'.

  60. So Let Me Get This Straight... by Irate+Engineer · · Score: 1

    People who put their work up on the Internet for the world to see don't like people linking to their work for all the world to see?

    Makes perfect sense, got it.

    --

    Left MS Windows for Linux Mint and never looked back!

    Vote for Bernie in 2016!

  61. Want to not get sued? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stop providing links to torrents for copyrighted material.

    Stop defending piracy!!!

  62. Explicit Permission by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

    So if you would need explicit permission to post links would this link be a copyright violation since Slashdot hasn't given me permission? And would Slashdot be inducing infringement by allowing me to infringe on their copyright (without giving me explicit permission)?

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  63. Cat got your tongue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is like when Goodyear tried to patent the use of boiled rubber. Everybody "accidentally" boiled it in their industries for made everything. In the end the patent was impossible to apply.

  64. Squaring the circle by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

    There may even have been a religious angle

    Something about "squaring the circle" and an argument between Christians and ancient Greeks, it's been around for centuries. Oddly general relativity dictates a circle drawn around a deep gravity well will significantly reduce the value of Pi, the value for Earth's gravity well makes the circumference of a circular orbit around it about an inch less than expected using Pi.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  65. Let Me Get This Straight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can get a host from the US, in which case my privacy will be "respected" by the Three Letter Agencies. Or I can get a host from the EU, where they are seriously considering a notion that died in the mid-90's, with extreme prejudice and cause, due to the Web.

    Australia perhaps? No, Five Eyes member. Oh I know, China, or possibly Russia or Malaysia. Places where rights are respected and freedom is given it's due!

  66. Re:This is the best possible thing that could happ by kheldan · · Score: 1

    Anon, you're making a common, but understandable mistake: you're injecting common sense and logic into a conversation concerning business people and politicians, who habitually don't make a lick of sense at all. They'd probably have the National Guard raid Google's headquarters for doing as you say, if not have Google's board of directors hauled out into the street and shot like dogs.

    --
    Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
  67. Moronic by cas2000 · · Score: 1

    That's just fucking stupid - a link is a reference, not a copy.

    If you can't reference copyrighted works, nobody can legally say "I read **CENSORED** the other day, it was great". Similarly, movie reviews would be banned. and telling people about newspaper or magazine articles they read. and lots of other everyday fair-use references to copyrighted works.

  68. Re: This is what you get. XXX on idea exchange by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

    Election of such officials can also result in the position becoming very over-politicised - you end up with public prosecutors being elected because they promise they will turn a blind eye to certain crimes, or pledge to do whatever it takes to bring down a certain organisation regardless of guilt. Low-level officials end up trying to make policy* rather than simply enforce it.

    America is a good example of how this can end, because their government has more layers than most. It's quite common to see the government actively fighting the government - federal, state and local officials all trying to advance contradictory agendas, and all trying to weasel their way around the courts. It can make for some very strange laws.

    *I propose that a local official trying to overrule a larger-scale law without proper authority be referred to as 'Kim Davising.'

  69. Re:This is the best possible thing that could happ by KGIII · · Score: 1

    I don't know if it's still true but, at one time, they did have a bit of a gap. I've personally tested this due to some comments on a webmaster forum that I frequented back in the day. Here's how it worked...

    Make a directory, put a simple html file in it.
    Include a robots.txt with the noindex tag.
    Link other pages on your site to that new html file.
    Wait until site is crawled by Google's bot.
    Search for the html file by exact URL.
    Document is listed in the search results - with content of the document in the description.

    I have no idea if it still works. You had to link it from your own domain (I think) and it needed some certain number (unknown - didn't work with just a few) links to the document. I assume it was a bug. I'm guessing it was fixed by now. This would have been 2007-2008 area, as I recall?

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  70. The Internet, R.I.P. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Proudly born in the USA, 1969.

    Murdered by cowardly Europeans, 2015.

    Euros are Nazi pedophiles, I say burn them with nukes. You meet any euroslut, shoot it between the eyes.

  71. Guenter Oettinger the EU commissiiner in charge of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is already telling that the EU has a commissioner for digital policy (wtf?!).

    Of course the guy has hardly ever seen an actual web page, and if so someone printed it out for him. He is a scapegoat of big industry, only recently to be seen to push through the new directive on "guaranteed net neutrality" which of course does the opposite. Incidentally the next day after parliament accepted the proposal German Telecom's chairman announced that his company is looking to charge startups for "special services" a few percentage of their revenue, which he deemed a "fair deal". Of course Oettinger applauded and cheered in via twitter announcing what great achiement he had just accomplished. On the plus side he got sh**t stormed immediately.

    Now the same Oettinger comes forward with this stupidiest of ideas to make hyperlinks subject to copyright restrictions. Oh btw he prides himself of making Europe a digital eldorado. Wasteland more likely by the looks of it.

    If it were not so obviously sad it would be hilarious. It's Yes Minister all over again.

  72. What if that link is a gambling website? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Then the USA has already waged a frontal attack on the hyperlink.

  73. So robots are a Russian invention? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because someone invented the term doesn't mean they invented the thing named.

  74. Bullshit by Invalidator · · Score: 2

    I read the entire document linked from the anti-EU politician and nowhere could I find the claim she is making. This is quite typical of anti-EU UK politicians - they complain about something the EU has done or is doing... in their imagination.

    --

    ~_~ Not tonight, dear, I have a modem.

  75. Re:This is the best possible thing that could happ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I agree completely.

    The www is teeming with stories of people being bullied in court by corps that feel injured by seemingly innocuous hyperlinks to some of their public pages. The best way to avoid the pain is to regroup all those mined pages under an unique, and easily recognizable, banner.

    I really think it can, and should, be done. The easiest way is to include put all those pages in a particular domain, like ".special" :

    - corps that want to put a page in that domain have to pay a special fee to some transgovernmental institution, and describe in a special header what is allowed and not allowed for that uri
    - corps that want to robot search that domain have to pay a special fee to the same institution

    That way, all those greedy/paranoid corps will be happy, while actually putting themselves in a ghetto where nobody will hear about them and have any interest in their activities.

    And the rest of the Internet will experience more freedom than ever.

  76. AniMoJo has got the painters in by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    There's probably some group out there who's trying to bring back restrictions on women's rights to vote

    You mean you don't approve of female suffrage? You orchicrat, you!

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  77. Coke abusing, child raping corporate lawyers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What do you expect from a bunch of coke abusing child-raping autocratic lawyers who are nothing more than wholly owned subsidiaries of multi-national corporations? You expect behavior like this.

    Well, the same thing holds true for the EC; you expect this kind of thing from this group of people, too.
     

  78. Re:This is what you get. XXX on idea exchange by Cederic · · Score: 1

    In the UK you don't need to be an MP to be a minister either.

    That doesn't stop the Commission being a corrupt malignant force damaging democracy.

  79. Game reviewing has become democratized by tepples · · Score: 1

    How do "Publishers filter out bad writers" better than Internet reviews do? Three decades ago, the entry barrier associated with the Official Nintendo Seal made sense for a video game industry struggling to recover after the 1983 crash. But in 2015, we have a decentralized review scene on the Internet to help game buyers avoid crap.

  80. Re:This is the best possible thing that could happ by hsu · · Score: 1

    This is not "content industry misconception". The traditional media industry wants hyperlinks to go because hyperlinks essentially promote competition and evens out the playing field to new content providers and entrepreneurs. If the industry does not want their content to be linked to, they can perfectly well put Disallow in their robots.txt, but that is not the goal. The goal is to stop competing new industries and companies from being created. It is cheaper to use corrupt politicians to destroy or slow competition than develop something new or compete with efficiency. It is not happening just in media area, media is just most visible.

    This is why large media managed lobby to outlaw links in Spain, driving sites like google news out. Not to protect their content, but to screw the smaller media companies and outside competition. If the larger content companies would have put in their robots configuration file "deny indexing", the public would have soon found the smaller news sites and other content through search engines and aggregators, and ad business would have followed the public. So Spain ruled it all illegal and does not allow opt-out. This essentially prevents new media companies from being created as they cannot get indexed either, as they are not even allowed to say google that "We are happy if you index our site". It would be interesting to see how this played out, what are Spanish people using as their news sources, can they use outside aggregators which link to global Spanish-speaking sites?

  81. Hyperlinks and bookcases by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

    If I walk into a library, I can search their catalog or I can walk down the aisle of documents, reading the library call number and/or the boot title.

    If I do a comparison, I have to ask myself, what is the difference between a document title on a bookshelf, and a hyperlink in a web page?

    If I don't retrieve the book, its like I did not click onto the hyperlink.

    Presumably, a webpage may be copyrighted, and I bet that even the copyright holder has icons on it, or links to other copyright material not owned by him.

    This is stupidity and we should just use common sense.

    Its like saying, clicking on the link with a mouse makes a difference if I used the left mouse button versus the right mouse button, or a mouse with no button or scroll wheel.

    --
    Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
  82. Re: This is what you get. XXX on idea exchange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The point about political posturing for elections is duly noted, of course, but the primary issue is each link is a potential weak-point between the election and the appointed official. You only need one person in the chain to cave to pressure from a special interest to corrupt the end-result. Each person represents a likely point of failure/corruption.

  83. Let them do it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They want to make the EU the most attractive market in the world.

    By all means let them introduce this measure, and see how it agrees with growth in the market.

    (And I'm all for well-regulated markets.)

  84. Primer on European Union stewardship by JigJag · · Score: 1

    For those still needed to understand how the EU is ruled, here is a quick primer. Feel free to add more if you think it's relevant:
    1) there are 3 groups in charge of the EU: the European Council, the European Commission and the European Parliament.
    2) members of the European Parliament are elected by European citizens via your usual voting booth.
    3) members of the European Commission are not elected but appointed by their respective country of origin's government.
    4) members of the European Council are in fact the heads of European government plus the president of the European Commission

    You can see from that arrangement that exactly one group is elected and consequently renders an account to the electors. In this case, it's a member of the European Parliament that raises the flag on a proposal from a member of the European Commission.

    --
    "The hallmark of humanity is the ability to move beyond sensory inputs" - Mary Helen Immordino-Yang
  85. Jews infecting the EU confirmed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    None of this shit should be monetized anyway, free culture should flow between the people not some shitty coporations.

  86. Re: Copyright by DirkRoorda · · Score: 1

    Simple remedy: do not link to copyrighted material. Do not tweet or otherwise recommend anything that is copyrighted. Just for one month. Then watch where the action is.