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Daimler Builds Massive Industrial Energy Storage Systems From Used EV Batteries (computerworld.com)

Posted by Soulskill on from the recharging-ahead dept.

Lucas123 writes: German carmaker Daimler AG is building large battery storage systems for industrial use from the used lithium-ion batteries of its all-electric and hybrid vehicles. The first of Daimler's "2nd use battery storage units" will consist of 1,000 smart electric drive vehicle batteries and have a 13MWh of capacity. It is expected to be connected to the electrical grid in Lünen, Germany early next year. All of Daimler's battery storage units are currently planned to be greater than a megawatt in capacity, meaning they'll only be for commercial, not residential use, but the company said it does expect those batteries to be cost competitive with the ones Tesla announced earlier this year.

43 of 73 comments (clear)

  1. This is great by JoshuaZ · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is great. People often underestimate how important energy storage is. Many of the sources of power that don't produce CO2 are intermittent. Wind and solar are the primary examples. Sometimes it is sunny but sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it is windy but it isn't. Thus for example you have headlines about how for one day or so you'll have some country or region produce more power than it needs using wind, but they miss that the vast majority of the time this extra power is wasted and the next day they need to go burn a lot of fossil fuels. The problem isn't as completely bad as one might guess since wind is generally strong at night when solar isn't an option, but the general need for cheap and efficient storage is definitely there. The best storage form in terms of being cheap and efficient is pumped hydroelectric https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... but it requires specific nice geology to work.

    1. Re:This is great by houstonbofh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This could also make power speculation and arbitrage possible. Buy power to charge up on windy nights and sell on hot days. (In summer, anyway) Bulk wind power in Texas on the spot market has actually dropped below zero on a few occasions. http://www.slate.com/articles/... This would fix that imbalance.

    2. Re:This is great by Dereck1701 · · Score: 1

      No doubt advances in storage technology would go a long way towards making renewables feasible, however the prices need to come down for that to become a reality. Teslas power wall for example will run $3,000 - $3,500 for the battery pack alone (not including inverter & installation. It doesn't appear powerful enough to handle your average homes peak wattage draw, it maxes out at 3.3 KW. I have a small RV generator that can handle 4.5 KW peaks and cost me about $220, most whole house generators put out 15KW and cost about $2,500.

    3. Re:This is great by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      I can see uses in whole-building UPSs. Now a power outage doesn't mean the office has to shut down for the day. The TCO might be lower than generators - more expensive to install, but costs next to nothing to maintain.

    4. Re:This is great by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A similar idea is to use electric vehicles in people's garages to "time shift" demand. Nevada Power (and I'm sure others) offers a rate plan for EV owners where power is much cheaper after 11pm and more expensive in the afternoons. Cars can already be set to start to wait until a set time to begin charging.

      Power companies spend a lot of money building "peaker" power plants that are only needed between 4pm and 7pm. Theoretically, when a power company hits its supply limit, it could put a call out to any EV currently plugged in saying "I'll pay 6 cents per kWh for what's in your battery". If they don't get as much power as they need, they would put out another request at 7 cents. If you paid 4 cents the previous night, that's a good deal for everyone. The car would be set up with rules about what price you want and how much power you're willing to part with.

    5. Re:This is great by unrtst · · Score: 1

      ... more expensive to install, but costs next to nothing to maintain.

      Because Lithium Ion batters never wear out or need replaced? Where did all these come from? Oh yeah, they're used.
      FWIW, I don't think they're a bad idea, but I wouldn't use them as a one-or-the-other in place of a generator... at least not at this time.

    6. Re:This is great by niftymitch · · Score: 1

      No doubt advances in storage technology would go a long way towards making renewables feasible, however the prices need to come down for that to become a reality. .....

      I wondered what the value of this was but saw a pun in your post.
      There is data center storage and off peak electric storage and load leveling.

      Buildings full of robots, food, data, semiconductor fabrication, assembly,communication equipment all have
      large downtime risks and orderly shutdown risks.

      Since these are pulled from recycled battery packs the costs are interesting.

      These are lithium based -- I think the heavy iron based battery technology is
      the most likely urban future. Install them in underground vaults perhaps
      under the driveway then roof solar as well as off peak charging can be buffered
      with little environmental risk. The interface technology is still expensive but
      regulation and testing are settling down and cost reductions will follow.

      --
      Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
    7. Re:This is great by linuxpyro · · Score: 1

      This is true, but even without renewables energy storage is a good tool to have available to the grid. Batteries and inverters are capable of sourcing and sinking power, as well as ramping up and down fast, making them good candidates for frequency regulation and other ancillary services. For example, by spacing storage systems around, you can also help avoid congestion on large transmission lines.

      --
      Saying "I'll probably get modded down for this" in a post is the best way to get it modded up.
    8. Re:This is great by JoshuaZ · · Score: 1

      It reduces it but not as much as a naive calculation suggests since a) conventional plants have startup times where you burn a lot more, b) due to slow startup time you need some fossil fuel running all the time if you don't have a lot of storage so if there's a sudden lull in wind or solar you can still keep the grid steady. There's an excellent book that covers all these issues for laypeople, "Before the Lights Go Out" about the history and future of the electric grids by Maggie Koerth-Baker. Her book focuses on the American grid (well grids really since there are three main grids, East, West and Texas) but most of the book applies to pretty much any large-scale grid.

    9. Re:This is great by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Err... You know, it's not about the direct value of the electricity stored but what that electricity is capable of. If that electricity can keep your server farm going for a while longer, as a form of redundancy, and you're making a few million dollars per hour at that server farm then it's money well spent. It's nice to complain and all but it's better, I think, to look at the entirety of the picture before making such complaints.

      Just because you're poor and unimaginative does not mean the rest of the world is as enlightened as you are. The question is not, how much is the power worth to you? The question is how much is the power worth to you when you have none?

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    10. Re:This is great by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      for example you have headlines about how for one day or so you'll have some country or region produce more power than it needs using wind, but they miss that the vast majority of the time this extra power is wasted
      That is incorrect. Even countries like Denmark, Portugal and Germany that have a very high wind production rate, usually have no problems transporting the energy elsewhere.
      Yes, the news are full about the fact that germany is at the edge of its transportation capacity, however it happens rarely that wind plants are in fact disconnected from the grid.

      When we start with storages like this, it is in fact more likely that the actual energy stored comes from fossile plants.
      The economics/mechanics behind that is: you are producing excess fossile power, because the wind e.g. increased. But you don't want to power down the fossile plant, as you might know (via prognosis systems) that you need it again in 10 minutes. (Would be a waste to power the good running fossile plant down and power it up in 5 mins again to reach the prognosis you need in 10 minutes).

      Another important economic point is: during peak time, and high variation, not only power for customers (especially if it is unexpected drawn) is more expensive, but also so called "regulation energy" or "reserve energy" is more expensive. "Reserve Energy" goes both ways, sudden demand needs to be fullfilled by "reserve power plants" and sudden excess needs to be "shifted away". For both the power companies have to pay.

      So a storage like this would get money if it "stores" energy (leveling the "wobbeling" of the peak), _and_ again when it releases the energy and "sells" it.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    11. Re:This is great by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      That would require the power companies to care. Currently they seem to be fighting distributed generation with every ounce of control they can muster. It is sad though that solar panels on your house earn less money for the power during the peak time than you pay during the off peak night for power. It is like they want to pay for everyone's power generation at the lowest rate they can get away with, and charge everyone the highest rate possible. I wonder if we could setup a solar power production union and push for being paid higher amounts for solar power produced during peak time.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    12. Re:This is great by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      The same way as they did in the original car?

      Very likely, they go through and test all the cells before being used in this system and replace any non working cells. Also, the design of these systems generally isolates each cell within a small steel cage (and electrically) so that if one cell burns out, it doesn't burn out all the cells.

      Here is a picture of a Tesla battery pack, lower down in the pictures, there is one with the top off of it, you can see the battery isolation clearly in that picture. This is done to isolate damage from a burst/burning cell:
      http://www.teslamotorsclub.com...

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    13. Re:This is great by dj245 · · Score: 1

      A similar idea is to use electric vehicles in people's garages to "time shift" demand. Nevada Power (and I'm sure others) offers a rate plan for EV owners where power is much cheaper after 11pm and more expensive in the afternoons. Cars can already be set to start to wait until a set time to begin charging.

      Power companies spend a lot of money building "peaker" power plants that are only needed between 4pm and 7pm. Theoretically, when a power company hits its supply limit, it could put a call out to any EV currently plugged in saying "I'll pay 6 cents per kWh for what's in your battery". If they don't get as much power as they need, they would put out another request at 7 cents. If you paid 4 cents the previous night, that's a good deal for everyone. The car would be set up with rules about what price you want and how much power you're willing to part with.

      If I had an electric car, there is no way in hell that I would take that deal. Intentionally increasing the charge/discharge cycles of my $x0,000 car battery to at least double the normal usage to make a few pennies is incredibly foolish.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    14. Re:This is great by JoshuaZ · · Score: 1

      Agree with your last two paragraphs (and the point about how right now storage is mainly going to be used for fossil plants is certainly important) . I think however you may be underestimating how often wind power gets wasted in some areas, although it may be an issue of where exactly one is looking. For example, in the US there's a lot of wind power in Texas but it often gets wasted. And if one is a smaller, isolated grid, such as many islands, this problem is even more severe. But you are right that "vast majority" was probably too strong especially in the context of Western and Central Europe which has done a good job integrating their grids.

    15. Re:This is great by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 1

      to at least double the normal usage

      I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

    16. Re:This is great by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 1

      That would require the power companies to care.

      I explained right up front exactly why they care.

      Power companies spend a lot of money building "peaker" power plants that are only needed between 4pm and 7pm.

    17. Re:This is great by evilviper · · Score: 1

      Buy power to charge up on windy nights and sell on hot days. (In summer, anyway) Bulk wind power in Texas on the spot market has actually dropped below zero on a few occasions.

      Except that's not a viable business model. It costs way the hell too much money to build a huge energy-storage facility, to not maximize day-in, day-out profits. In other words, you can't leave your battery-bank half-charged every day, waiting around for the occasional free electricity to take advantage of. In fact it's most profitable to build a facility that doesn't quite meet all the demand.

      Also, wind power in Texas only goes negative by 1/3rd of the subsidized price (i.e. producers are earning positive money), so when the subsidizes get reduced or go away, so does the free electricity.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    18. Re:This is great by evilviper · · Score: 2

      it could put a call out to any EV currently plugged in saying "I'll pay 6 cents per kWh for what's in your battery". If they don't get as much power as they need, they would put out another request at 7 cents. If you paid 4 cents the previous night, that's a good deal for everyone.

      You'd be an idiot to accept that deal!

      1) Your EV's battery doesn't charge/discharge at anywhere near 100% efficiency.
      2) Batteries have a fixed number of charge/discharge cycles, so the energy you pull out is significantly more expensive than the electric rates. It may not be much cheaper than running a gasoline/electric generator in your back yard...
      3) On a TIMEÂ-OFÂ-US rate schedule, you pay about SIX TIMES HIGHER for your daytime electrical usage. I just found Nevada Electric TOU summer rates of $0.06159 for off-peak, and $0.36554 for peak (all-day, really). So until they're paying you more than $0.40, you'd be far better off serving your own household's electric needs from your EV's battery, not selling it back to the grid. Of course nobody does that because of point #2 above.
      4) If it was at all a profitable proposition, the power company would cut-out the customer, distribution losses, retail rates, etc., and build their own battery banks. That they don't should be a huge hint that the economics don't work.
      5) As an added bonus, your car doesn't have its full range when you suddenly need it, and it will take an hour to top-off the charge.
      6) If utilities would quick trying to heavily penalize residential PV customers, they would quickly get lots of Summer peak power.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    19. Re:This is great by rch7 · · Score: 1

      They would need to build these "peaker" plants even if they will be used once a year only. Random supply of solar/wind doesn't help that much here.

    20. Re:This is great by cwsumner · · Score: 1

      Many things have very different values depending on -time-. If it was cheap then and is expensive now, you need to take that into account in your calculations.

      If there is no other source of power right -now-, then your battery pack might have a value that is three or four orders of magnitude greater! 8-)

    21. Re:This is great by cwsumner · · Score: 1

      .... And if one is a smaller, isolated grid, such as many islands, this problem is even more severe. But you are right that "vast majority" was probably too strong especially in the context of Western and Central Europe which has done a good job integrating their grids.

      Interesting concept: Storage as an alternative to Transmission.

      Maybe it would not replace Generation, so much as Transmission. (Explains why the power companies are scared.)
      But transmission is still more efficient, so I see them working together. Except for the isolated places, as you mention.

      By the way, power companies have tested other means of storage (besides hydro pumping). I remember a couple of reports of large flywheels in a vacuum on magnetic bearings, which is surprisingly efficient.

  2. buy our dying batteries by frovingslosh · · Score: 3, Informative

    ....but the company said it does expect those batteries to be cost competitive with the ones Tesla announced earlier this year.

    Translation: The company [Daimler AG] said that they hope to charge about as much for their old used nearing end-of-life batteries as Tesla is charging for brand new batteries and that customers will not be smart enough to understand the difference.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
    1. Re:buy our dying batteries by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      That's fine, assuming that they're priced appropriately for their storage capacity.

    2. Re:buy our dying batteries by Mr.CRC · · Score: 1

      Or maybe that means they will be cheaper, to account for the probable higher required replacement frequency. Or maybe they will fail, and learn from it, adjust, and succeed? Ie., why be negative about something positive? What are you, a battery?

    3. Re:buy our dying batteries by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      The part about this scheme that concerns me is that Daimler is working hard to create as much value as possible from older, deteriorating batteries, while they continue to deteriorate.

      For some reason, the idea of banking all the old deteriorating batteries together in a big mass and working hard to keep squeezing energy into and out of them seems like there might be certain hazard in it.

      Maybe I'm just not thinking things through, because I'm not involved in the project in any way, but don't those old batteries sometimes go to a leaky state eventually? Is there a final decommissioning plan in place for the batteries in these installations? When is the EOL on the cells and batteries?

    4. Re:buy our dying batteries by SJ · · Score: 1

      Just where exactly do you think that Tesla puts all the old used batteries from its cars?

      I'm sure they have a wall somewhere that they stack them up against. A Wall of Power or such-like.

    5. Re:buy our dying batteries by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      exactly. 3-4 years ago, Musk said that he was going to use the old cells from the cars for home/business storage. For now, these powerpacks will be using new cells, but, they will mix in old ones down the road and then the packs will be just old cells. Ppl are missing the fact that tesla has not said that these packs will consist of so many cells or that they are all new. For now, the cells will be new, but, tesla will be mixing in cells from the roadster and later MS.

      waste not want not.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    6. Re:buy our dying batteries by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      To be fair it's a totally different product. Tesla makes relatively small packs for home use. This thing is grid scale. Delivering a few kW from a battery pack is very different to delivery a few MW from a battery pack.

      It's actually relatively small by grid standards - Japanese manufacturers have been offering 50MW+ batteries for getting on a decade now, but because it recycles cells it's still pretty interesting. I guess the target market will be wind/solar farm owners looking to smooth their output or store some of it until it's most profitable to release.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    7. Re:buy our dying batteries by necro81 · · Score: 1

      Meh, if the pack has a certain nameplate capacity (kWh of storage, kW of output power), then it should not matter much if packs are new or old. The physical size will be different, since you'll need more aged batteries to match the capacity of new batteries. I'd be more interested in seeing the terms of the warranty.

    8. Re:buy our dying batteries by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      It are lithium batteries. There is no hazard in totally running them down, if charged properly. The capacity simply goes down to the point where it is no longer worth it.

      Part of the process of breaking down is physical erosion of the sealed cases the batteries are contained in. So you've got ten thousand pounds of lithium in a small contained space. The time is ticking away until one of the batteries erodes to the point where the seal is breached and the lithium inside the battery ignites. The heat and flames ignite the rest of the batteries.

      Uh... *foom*

  3. So.... by WindBourne · · Score: 2

    Mercedes is working hard to copy Tesla with words, but they really have nothing. For example, claiming that their batteries will be as low costs as Tesla. How are they going to do that? With small production? Nope. Zero chance.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:So.... by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Yes. It is the exact same model as Tesla. The powerpack will initially be using new batteries. They are doing this to help get the factory off the ground. later on, when batteries are coming back from the roadster, and then the MS, they will tear apart the batteries, test the cells and then build powerpacks based on those used cells.
      Tesla announced 3 years ago that they would be re-using the cells for doing homes. And Daimler, upon seeing that Musk is doing this, is now trying to copy it.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  4. Great for commercial use by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    From 'E-mobility thought to the end: World's largest 2nd-use battery storage unit set to connect to the grid" (Nov 03, 2015)
    http://media.daimler.com/dcmed...
    "However, the battery systems are still fully operational after this point, as the low levels of power loss are only of minor importance when used in stationary storage."
    The amount of productive use before a set recharging as part of a routine understood. The count of expected recharges is understood over time. So the later commercial use is understood for productive power output and over time.
    The power output, charging needs can be predicted and factored in over time. Then recycling is offered.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  5. HFT FTW by Idou · · Score: 1

    Yeah, imagine all the High Frequency Trading systems being used to make the grid more efficient. . .

    All the cool technology of HFT without the social stigma of HFT . . .

    --
    Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
  6. Just wait... by HotNeedleOfInquiry · · Score: 1

    Until Daimler lobbies for legislation mandating compulsory "recycling" of automotive batteries once they degrade to 80% capacity.

    --
    "Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
  7. Daimler's batteries are used by mark_reh · · Score: 1

    and they'll be cost competitive with Tesla's new batteries? One would hope so.

  8. Lünen by netsurfer912 · · Score: 1

    I've heard that somewhere .... right, that's where I live! Even though this is not super genius I'm kind of proud finally something is happening. Guys, it's the future! Here! Well, along with mining-, wind power companies and recycling facilities (largest in Europe) we also have a dozen of coal power plants in the area. What's easy to miss is that a coal power provider (Steag) is doing the exact same thing, I think partnering with one of the Mitsubishis.

  9. A simplistic dream by LongearedBat · · Score: 1

    A simplistic dream would be a power grid:
    - that anyone can buy power from at a "retail" price
    - that anyone can sell power to at a "wholesale" price
    - where the difference is used only to maintain the grid (ie. non-profit)
    - where prices may fluctuate hourly to reflect supply/demand
    - that has no other rules, to keep it simple.

    I say a "simplistic dream" because, as I understand it, there is no simple way of actually doing that given how our power grids currently work. Plus there are the politics.

    The goals of such a setup are to promote market forces on a level playing field for anything from small homes to large power companies to encourage more efficient management of the energy that is produced.
    If we don't have enough power, then a new power station would become profitable.
    If day/night supply fluctuates too much, then a new large battery bank would become profitable.
    If enough individual homes build their own systems, then that would reduce the need for power stations.

    To reduce the risk of carbon fueled power stations, tax the carbon fuel... by a lot.

  10. uh, no by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Tesla is NOT selling you a powerpack with new cells. They are selling you a system with 7 or 10 KWH. For now, Tesla is going with new cells. BUT Down the road, the cells will be used from spent roadsters and MSs. BTW, spent means that the BATTERY typically has over 80% of storage.
    If you look at the weight of the power packs, it is obvious that there are a lot more cells than the size calls for.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  11. Re:Batteries are for cows. by KGIII · · Score: 1

    Well, they did have an album called, "High Voltage."

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  12. Re:Coren22's "greatest hits" fails #5/5... apk by Coren22 · · Score: 1

    It is really great that you are so willing to announce all of your failures repeatedly. I appreciate your candor on posing them to almost all of my posts. So, the question becomes when you will answer my challenge, as you still haven't answered the question.

    http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

    A bridge provides no ability to do what you claim. So, care to try again to prove my knowledge inaccurate. Or will you just shitpost some more and prove your lack of knowledge?

    --
    APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  13. For small loads, a UPS by cwsumner · · Score: 1

    If you only need a small storage system, try a UPS like we use for computers. Some good ones even allow you to connect larger batteries for longer runtime. And the converter hardware has "economy of scale" that brings the price down.

    But don't try to run your air conditioner off of it! 8-P