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EU Set To Crack Down On Bitcoin and Anonymous Payments After Paris Attack (thestack.com)
An anonymous reader writes: Home affairs ministers from the European Union are set to gather in Brussels for crisis talks in the wake of the Paris attacks, and a crackdown on Bitcoin, pre-paid credit card and other forms of 'anonymous' online payments are on the agenda. From the article: "According to draft conclusions of the meeting, European interior and justice ministers will urge the European Commission (the EU executive arm) to propose measures to strengthen the controls of non-banking payment methods. These include electronic/anonymous payments, virtual currencies and the transfers of gold and precious metals by pre-paid cards."
I understand that cutting of the money supply for terrorist is very effective, and I can understand bitcoin as it can move large amounts of money, however I don't get pre-paid cards? Do they want traceability when people use these items when using a VPN?
Because it already is. And killing people with guns and bombs is something you want to prevent instead of penalizing it after it happens. For this you need the ability to predict what will happen. Such ability is gained from observing the current state of the world (because you cannot observe the future), and drawing inferences from these observations. The more you observe, the more predictive power you gain. Large-scale organized activities (like organized crime or organized terrorism) usually require monetary support, thus observation of monetary transfers gives valuable information about the existence of organized structures, which in turn improves prediction about terroristic (or criminal) activity.
Just how many terrorists are using this again? Oh, right, that doesn't actually matter...
Um, and what about cash?
"Set a man a fire, he'll be warm for the rest of the night. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
... the terrorists win again.
It's not because bitcoin payments are anonymous or enable terrorists. Because they're not and they don't.
they can move cash around too.
You can get a great 60% deal on a few million gallons of ISIS petrol... (sorry, cash or bank transfer only).
rights and implement more population control laws. Every time this happens we need to lose some rights and freedoms.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
This is the way the criminals pay each other. To you bleeding heart liberals, it's that it hides the process, and has nothing to do with the 'coin'.
I understand that cutting of the money supply for terrorist is very effective, and I can understand bitcoin as it can move large amounts of money, however I don't get pre-paid cards? Do they want traceability when people use these items when using a VPN?
It's money laundering. The terrorism is in part an excuse, but realistically a massive portion of the criminal economy runs on cash. If you have a way to turn cash into transmittable currency, you have easy money laundering and untraceable transactions.
We appreciate our privacy, but there are *billions* of dollars of illegal transactions because cash exists and is largely untraced. Any sane government would want to crack down on cash transactions up to the point where it starts hurting their own economy in a serious way.
These include electronic/anonymous payments, virtual currencies and the transfers of gold and precious metals by pre-paid cards.
Two problems here. Electronic payments can transfer from anything to anything else, meaning two accounts both external to the EU; the EU's rules would never touch that transaction. The payment can then be introduced into the EU if someone wanted to (and honestly it would never need to). It's the old trick of "abstract until it's legal."
Second is that there's no point in only restricting cards that represent 'precious metals', since it represents a denomination that's indirectly backed by the metal. A card could just as conveniently represent the same value in base metals, or blue chip stocks, or frozen concentrated orange juice. Limiting prepaid card value to 500Euro or something should suffice.
That said I don't see how any of that would've prevented the Paris attacks or allowed the accomplices to be found out after the fact. Wallet cash could've covered transportation, food and lodging; and the guns (probably the largest expense) were smuggled into the country anyhow. The total cost was probably less than 50k Euros, almost all of which was probably paid in cash to criminals who weren't going to try and trace their payment even if it were traceable (demanding cash because they don't want to be traced themselves). I don't know the details of the case though. All I see is politicians trying to push through a EU PATRIOT ACT.
Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
Let's see, what might be a good way to stop foreigners from killing our citizens... Ah yes: DO NOT LET THEM INTO THE COUNTRY.
It's so easy, so simple... And so utterly without benefit to the ruling class. Arguments we've heard so far include "...but there are many here already so it won't help". Well, KICK THOSE OUT, then. Europe is unique in that we apparently cannot kick anybody out of our countries. Other countries certainly have no problem getting rid of undesirables - why can't we?
We don't want muslims. We've had 40 years to get to know muslims and by know we are entitled to an opinion about them. Muslims are trouble. Muslims make constant unreasonable demands. Muslims want us to become muslim, and our countries to be ruled by islam - and WE DON'T.
"But you are bombing Syria!" That's like saying we should be punished for bad behaviour, and we should do nothing to stop the punishment from happening. Not just that: the choice to bomb Syria was made by the same politicians that now want the punishment to continue! Which sounds a lot like "I did something bad and now you all have to suffer for it". Let's face it: we are at war. The war was started around 700 with the muslim invasion of Spain, and continues until today. We have EVERY RIGHT to defend ourselves and our countries, and we have EVERY RIGHT to deport who we don't want here.
"But when we close the borders we must also stop all trade!" That's a truly sad argument. We don't want muslims. Trade can continue fine. Any politician that doesn't understand that should be removed from office because anyone with the understanding and IQ of a sea cucumber really shouldn't be ruling anything, never mind an entire country.
"But..." No. Fuck you. This is about survival, and we are not obliged by any historical context or event to cease striving for our own survival.
The Bank of England chief economist recently argued that if we needed negative interest rates cash might have to be abolished. Add a security angle and it might yet happen.
They certainly are cracking down on prepaid phone SIMs, where the owner of the phone isn't identified. Apparently Belgium and Luxembourg were the only EU countries left which still had them, but they are phasing them out quicker (now!) than was planned. Apparently, there were just too many shenanigans done with them.
I'm less sure about prepaid credit cards, we've got one of those in the household, but I didn't hear anything yet about them being phased out. They were offered as one means to limit losses in case of fraud (e.g. online payments where details would get out; this actually makes sense), and customers are identified in this case. Also, such transfers go by clearing services, so I should think these can easily be tracked (on court order at least, if not by espionage).
Are there such prepaid credit (well, actually debit I guess) cards where users are not identified?
So to defend against attacks on our freedom we take away that freedom? Politicians have totally lost the plot.
because they can be used to transport AK-47's and even (horrors!) perpetrate suicide car bombings.
At least this would have some side benefits (cleaner cities), as opposed to banning everything somehow related with privacy.
The sad truth is that we as democracies have elected those incompetent bastards into power. The blame's on us.
paris event was a staged event. you know that right?
Fucking Euroscum ... listen, this shit is all karma for colonialism. This is your payment for ruining this world, enjoy eating it assholes.
Here's hoping the attacks and deaths continue, you and ISIS deserve each other.
Fucktards. Seriously, die off and do the world a favour.
people than have not realized yet that the EU are also terrorists and that the people they terrorized are their own citizens will eventually. They are just scum, just like the towelheads
So TFA is from the 19th, the meeting is on the 20th, and they already have draft conclusions? Why meet?
Sig?
More effective would be to go against the middlemen who buy oil from ISIS for half the market value and then make a nice profit by reselling it on the open market.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/...
Unless those middlemen are too big to fail and we can't do anything, of course.
"we are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."
Hi
The problem with the prepaid model is that there is no "credit check" per se. Anyone can give a cashier 25$ in cash and walk out the door with a prepaid sim or prepaid credit card. The banks and wireless company love this model because it means they get a much higher cut up front, and there is no risk to them.
However.... ever go read the Terms of service on the back of prepaid cards? There are three basic reasons why people buy prepaid products:
1) They do not have credit or they are not in the country legally
2) They do not have a bank, and they need to deal with an entity that doesn't take cash
3) International travelers who don't want to be raked over the coals for using their domestic card or phone.
The exchange rate that credit cards and paypal offer is often worse than a bank rate, and the bank rates are often worse than dedicated forex trading merchants.
Plastic gift cards (specifically merchant cards like Best Buy, Amazon) where you can buy any product with them are another form of black-market/grey-market currency. People get paid in gift cards for doing illicit things, because there is no connection between the person paying for the card, and the person receiving the card. Since gift cards are "region locked" as well, that also makes most cards useless for international money laundering... except Apple, Amazon and prepaid credit/debit cards, since these can be used to buy from US stores and still ship to foreign addresses.
Those articles are frankly pointless. They will do what they want and there's nothing we can do about it. What use is writing about them? To whine? To rage? It will change nothing. Write to your "representatives" if you will, the only result you will ever get is getting on a watchlist.
...were used to support the attack. But, hey, never let a good crisis go to waste, right?
Because apparently Anonymous is on our side in this case.
Too bad there's this thing called CASH, which is just as anonymous as Bitcoin. I feel for law enforcement's need, but I also have a right to go to the store and buy some gum and a soda and not have it tracked.
The way things are going these days, I'm waiting for the FBI and Interpol pre-crime divisions to be spun up any day now.
Coincenter, a firm established to help guide policy creation with regard to crypto currencies, has a excellent response. https://coincenter.org/2015/11...
I understand that cutting of the money supply for terrorist is very effective, and I can understand bitcoin as it can move large amounts of money
Also, you need to understand that the main keypoint of bitcoin: is that it's distributed.
Bitcoin protocol advantage isn't that you can move these large amounts of money anonymously.
Bitcoin protocol advantage is that it's only the poeple involved that get to make the call, there's no central authority.
This lack of central authority is done by the distribution. Every single transaction is broadcast to the whole network, and is stored into the blockchain: a huge virtual ledger of which every single node in the network has local copy. That's far from anonymous. That's publicly broadcast.
The bitcoin protocol still provides pseudonymity. In the blockchain, transaction aren't stored together with some username/identity. There is none as there's no central authority with which to register. Instead in the blockchain, transaction are signed with cryptographic key. And each user's wallet generates constantly new cryptographic keys specific to this user.
For an individual, it might not be easy to track every single such use of cryptographic key, in order to be able to trace a "money trail" between 2 users on the network.
But for a government, even more for an entity as the whole european union, that's well within their capability of "Big Data" analysis.
Much more easy to track than plain cash: with plain cash, you only get to read the serial number when the ATM handle out the money at one end of the chain, and when the deposit machine gets the cash back later. Any transaction that has happened in between is left to the imagination of the detective.
Whereas with bitcoin, it's as if every single movement of cash note was publicly broadcast. Be it when the cash changes hands (e.g.: an actual transaction between a merchant and a seller) or simply changes pocket (metaphorically symbolising the constant stream of generated crypto key as part as the normal function of a wallet).
A single individual might not follow it.
But a government could at least do the tracking, alghouth they can't block it (that's the whole point of the "no central authority").
Also, law is still law, and all the law against money laundering still apply against any institution that handles money. No matter if the money is plain cash, or credit cards or, in this case a weird protocole with no central authority.
BTC exchange, payment processor, etc. all requires user registration, and all require all the other procedures in place against laundering.
Simply, the transactions happening bitcoin will happen without any control from 3rd party (just like cash changing hands, although better traceable, as mentionned above).
Unlike transaction with credit card and central payment processor like Pay-pal, where the Visa, MasterCard or Paypal companies are able to freeze accounts and reverse transactions.
Bitcoin protocole still offers advantage for the average citizen: absence of monopoly.
(mainly the main advantage of cash, except that it also works online.
or the main advantage of SEPA payment, except that it works anywhere in the world, not only between european bank account supporting the protocol and a faster speed being minute to hours instead of next-day to days)
Meaning:
- freedom to chose one provider and interact as long as everbody else supports the same protocole.
- not a single company being jury judge and executionner (like with credit card companies and charge-backs), but instead enabling complexe multi-party scheme, were seller and buyer can freely agree before hand on a 3rd party arbiter (a role that the various consumer associations and certification groups in europe would be happy to play)
- not being at the whim of Visa/MasterCard freezing acount. Currently it's not possible to use a Credit Card to pay anything that they don't like.
(e.g.: you can't donate money to whistleblower. Wiki
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Why not crack down on government corruption, banking fraud and pedophile rings instead? Something effective that would actually make a difference in the world...
Political correctness is really just herd psychology pushed by insecure people who desperately seek social conformity.
remember cash doesn't kill people. muslims do
Going all Nazi in response to an act of terrorism only screws up your freedom.
I would know because I have lived it.. in 2001. I lived in NY on 9-11 and was all for using technology to keep us safe.. but you can't infringe on rights to privacy. You end up with a corrupt government and a police state.
limiting cryptocurrencies is a waste of time too, there is nothing you can do about it.. and doing things about it does not help in the way you think it will.
Terrorists are bad. Terrorists do X. Therefore, X is bad.
The liberal demoncrap "mind" cannot recognize the logical fallacy that has taken place in the above. Because they are too busy hating you and your freedoms.
Oh, I have a better idea. How about we each pay a $100 to get a mark on our forehead or hand to mark us as vetted by the state, proving we are not potential terrorists. That'll make it easy to tell the good guys from the baddies. And it will generate lots of revenue for the state. Win win!
wow, man. terrorists love the chaos and publicity that they receive. they love the reactions, the outrage, the responses that they get, because they don't need to do anything other than kill a few people, and the rest of the damage people - and governments - do *to themselves*. trying to "crack down" on anonymous payments all in the name of "terrorism"... it's amazing. i look forward to a time when people - and governments - understand that terrorising *ourselves* with the knee-jerk after-reactions often does far more lasting damage than the actual atrocities carried out by the killers.
Banks are worse http://www.forbes.com/sites/af...
The society collapses if the banking lobby at Brussels can't convince the Parliament to enact as much support for maximum banking fees at every turn!! The horrors of free market and commerce shall not prevent us from enriching our mercantilist backbones of society!
Want to crack down on something? How about cracking down on the governments who created, and now support, train, supply, and provide intelligence to the so called Islamic State?
Here's a list to get started with: The United States, Israel, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, France (yes, France) and Qatar.
The terrorist blowing himself up needed running "free education schools" called madarsas for years, shortlisting, sending of feelers, recruitment, brainwashing, training, tools, transportation. All this while staying in places with corrupt government officials, Mafia like entities, and other money extractors who if not paid well can spoil the plans.
All this is done by extremely smart individuals who expect the evils money buys - political power, influence, creature comforts, security, probably women.
A terrorist blowing himself costs millions of dollars.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Anatomy of HATE;
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