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Giant Telescope Project Stalled By Hawaiian Natives (khon2.com)
Fudge Factor 3000 writes: The Hawaiian Supreme Court has pulled a construction permit for the Thirty Meter Telescope project. A vocal minority of Hawaiians has vehemently protested the construction of the telescope for religious reasons. Now, they have been successful in contesting the construction permit. The ruling reads in part: "The process followed by the Board here did not meet these standards. Quite simply, the Board put the cart before the horse when it issued the permit before the request for a contested case hearing was resolved and the hearing was held. Accordingly, the permit cannot stand."
But the hypocrisy that will come from the complaints about the "Vocal Minority" will be over the top. All I have to say to both sides on this is, "Welcome to the rule of law and individual rights"
There are not many places on Earth where a telescope of this size can go. Hawaii was chosen because of the near-ideal weather at high altitude, and a low Northern Hemisphere latitude, which would make the Thirty Meter Telescope an ideal companion to the European E-ELT now being built in Chile. So with Hawaii now out of the picture, where could we put it now?
How about the Qinghai Plateau of Tibet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_Plateau)? This is even higher than Maunakea, though the weather will not be as favorable and the latitude is somewhat too far north.
White man telescope GOOD. We bring you pretty BEADS.
"Cut the crap, how much money to appease the spirits of your ancestors?"
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
A vocal minority of Hawaiians has vehemently protested the construction of the telescope for religious reasons.
Don't you love how people can make up nonsensical stories about how something is sacred to them to stop activities they don't like? Sometimes they even believe the nonsense they are spouting. But it's still nonsense. Personally I find scientific inquiry to be sacred ground and I can actually show how scientific inquiry benefits mankind. If they want to show how this telescope will cause some objective problem (environmental, logistical, financial, whatever) then by all means let's slow down and consider if the telescope is a good idea. But religious objections carry no weight with me.
So they have to hold a hearing so everyone can have their say. Fine. Hold the hearing. But religious objections are no grounds to stop construction of the telescope. Let them tell us how sacred this particular patch of ground is and then build the damn thing. I'm tired of people trying to trample valuable research because of their mythology.
Yup. China will be first to Mars while the US sits around like Europe does, old men on their porches filled with no-longer-valid rhetoric of how great they used to be.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
The permit gets thrown out and then you have the hearing that the court says you need. Most likely out come is the board does the hearing in the right way and the telescope gets built where it was proposed to be built. Possible small modifications are made to appease the Hawaiians and make any further court challenge more difficult.
Their rationale for balking can be whatever they please. It's their land, or at least it was until the white man started killing them. Pay up or take a hike.
Scientists in this case are discounting something that isn't there, not destroying stuff that is.
You don't have enough money to appease. This isn't about money. This is about racism and the hatred of whitey.
Fuck you, Haole. Fuck you indeed.
Pure unadulterated racism. But it's OK because it's not coming from a white man.
If Maunakea is so sacred, why...
The telescope is on Mauna Kea.
In any case, neither Mauna Kea nor Mauna Loa was used as a bombing range. You're probably thinking of Pohakuloa.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
NIMBYs have used "environmental concerns" for a few decades to try to scuttle things they don't like, I suppose it was only a matter of time before someone tried to use religion. There have been telescopes at that site for over 4 decades, if there religion was offended it was done and over with 2 decades ago.
Anyone holding back science in the name of religion is small minded indoctrinated individual. If they want to live in a religious fantasy world, they shouldn't be allowed to have a say in real worldly matters.
Maybe they're tired of white invaders trying to trample their natural landscapes and culture.
In case you didn't notice Hawaii is the only state where white people are not the majority. Not even close. White people account for less than 20% of the population and they certainly aren't in a position to "trample" anything if the voting public cares about an issue. Hawaii has an asian plurality and if you've ever been to Hawaii (I have) you'll quickly note that almost all the white people are tourists. Nobody is getting trampled here and they work very hard in Hawaii to respect local traditions. There are already telescopes on top of this volcano and aside from a few crazies, people are fine with it. The notion that this one violates something sacred is ridiculous.
That will fix this crap.
Truth isn't Truth - Guliani
Take a deep breath. Cultural or historic factors need to be taken in to consideration.
This has nothing to do with history and probably not much about culture either. It's (allegedly) about religion which is a mythology. And frankly I cannot see any rational argument that this damages the culture or historical record of anyone. It's a telescope on top of a mountain which is not being used for any other purpose. So long as there is no environmental issue or property rights issue involved then there is nothing to discuss.
If we simply discount our rich history, then we are no better than the fanatics destroying ancient monuments and statues in the desert.
Really? You're going to go there and compare scientists to a bunch of religious loonies destroying ancient artifacts? Ok, tell me what is being destroyed here. Aside from the area directly being built upon, what tangible thing is being destroyed? How does this change history or our record of history in any way? Who or what is actually being harmed here?
Since we're talking about public land, just put it to a referendum. If the majority of Hawaii's residents want it, go ahead and build it. If not, cancel it.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
And a vocal number of Baptists are opposed to physics, biology, and booze for religious reasons.
I don't know specifics of this project or the religious complaint against it, but consider this:
Some projects may have an environmental or "beauty" impact (what if the top of the mountain has a beautiful view, and the project is about to cut down all the trees in the area and limit access to that view?). This telescope may do something like that. People are upset at losing a natural resource: the beauty of nature in their area. It should be a national park for future generations to enjoy the same view I enjoyed, they might say.
So, they go to complain. But saying "I don't like this because it will ruin my view" will get everyone to laugh at you. "This is the cost of doing business", they tell you, "It's good for the local economy, and science, and whatever else." So they get ignored during the meeting and everyone goes about their business, not including the protestors.
The protestors are frustrated but realize that the US takes freedom of religion very seriously. Suddenly the idea is to call the land sacred and that will get some more legitimate discussion on the topic -- no one wants to be seen as discriminating against a religion. Now, media is covering the loss of environment since you called it sacred. Now, business and project leaders are calling you to make deals. Now, you're included in the process.
So what I pose to you is: is it possible that many of these "mythological" arguments in court are not actually completely sincere beliefs, but rather attempts to not be entirely trampled by the system? That freedom of religion is essentially a court "hack" that puts you on more equal footing?
In construction parlance, to "pull a permit" means to obtain a permit. The context makes it clear that isn't what the court did. TFA uses better wording: the permit was invalidated.
Good, there are 3 different giant telescopes in early stages of construction. Only 2, or maybe 1, giant telescope are truly needed.
I'm sure they could just turn the one giant telescope around and look through the earth if they wanted to observe stars only visible from the other hemisphere.
Fuck having more than one view of the sky, amiright?
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
Maunakea isn't like the Matterhorn. The area on the Maunakea plateau that's high enough etc to suit astronomers' needs is actually quite large, and the Thirty Meter Telescope's proposed location is at least a mile away from the summit and at least 500 feet lower.
But about 8 of the existing dozen or so scopes are practically right on the summit. Much more intrusive both to native sensibilities and to tourists. Built before cultural sensitivity was a thing, I guess, and before native Hawaiians had done much to organize politically. I think those opposed to the TMT may well largely be objecting to "one more straw" rather than to this telescope considered in isolation.
If all these scopes were planned for new construction now I think a reasonable compromise would be to disallow putting any of them above about the 13400' contour on the summit. And I imagine that by now many of the scopes on the summit are no longer all that scientifically useful anyways, having been eclipsed by bigger scopes and better technology.
Why not have a trade- go ahead and build the TMT, which will be a big scientific boon, but promise to gradually phase out and demolish the scopes on the summit and try to restore the summit area to a relatively pristine condition?
> vehemently protested the construction of the telescope for religious reasons.
Maybe I'm cynical but I wonder if this is more about wanting a payoff than anything religious.
The Hawaii state government is committed to impovershing everyone, because when everyone is poor it is equal.
Case in point: some people in Hawaii tried to set up a fairey to take people between islands. Sorry this is a crime to the environment since it could involve killing dolphins and whales (while other sea traffic is permitted to travel unfettered).
They set up water meters to restrict construction. You don't get a water meter unless you offer to fund public works (i.e. bribery), because just by existing you are depriving people of scarce resources. My buddy tried to build a desalination plant to provide cheap water to everyone and the state government shot it down because that's their excuse to their impoverishing rules on everyone under artificial scarcity.
Meanwhile the people are without jobs and use drugs as an alternative to entrepreneurship. Highest crystal meth rate in the US.
Look at every place the democrat party has unfettered control: detroid, illinois, new york. Poverty, crime, unemployment, and drugs. The telescope is a way out of this bringing legitimate money into the state. The state government says, "No way !!".
I half expected the summary to explain how our brave Marines mowed down the savages with Tommy Guns to ensure scientific progress for the enlightened White race.
Shall we order an eruption to placate the troglodytes?
I'm sure they could just turn the one giant telescope around and look through the earth if they wanted to observe stars only visible from the other hemisphere.
Yeah, the designers of the Earth should really have had it spin on an axis, so that you get a varying view of the sky. Then you could just locate your telescope near the equator, and see every star.
Without at least two able to view overlapping chunk of sky, there is a lot we cannot do and learn from them, or so Im told.
Common Sense isn't as Common as people think...
The science that is done on these telescopes is almost entirely independent of hemishphere. They look at objects so faint and far away that there are billions in view of any site.
At this price point, yeah, we should have one. The problem is that "private" scopes like Keck soak up a lot of NSF funds, having run them through the UC system, leaving less for "public" observatories like Gemini. It's using tremendous amounts of public funding to make a toy for very, very few people. It's much easier somehow to get money to build telescopes but running them seems not to be as attractive to the funding bodies.
Or hey, we could have one or two in each hemisphere and get even better views.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
Section 7. The State reaffirms and shall protect all rights, customarily and traditionally exercised for subsistence, cultural and religious purposes and possessed by ahupua’a tenants who are descendants of native Hawaiians who inhabited the Hawaiian Islands prior to 1778, subject to the right of the State to regulate such rights. [Add Const Con 1978 and election Nov 7, 1978]”
It may be law, but it makes me uneasy when a religion becomes enshrined in law. I guess we're lucky they're not cannibals.
As I remember from fourth grade, an ahupuaa runs from the mountain peak (mauka) down to the ocean (makai) so that each one is self sustaining. I'm having a hard time figuring out the correct ahupuaa for the location on Mauna Kea for the telescopes to determine which group of native Hawaiians have the right to protest under section 7 of the state constitution.
Bummer, looks like /. doesn't support Unicode enough to write the okina
Just call them 'racist' over and over, via the television and newspapers, until they accept thousands of non-Hawaiians into their country every year, and soon you'll be able to vote the telescope project into happening!
Just like every white country on Earth is being FORCED to accept millions of hate-filled, third world scum, who will soon outnumber us, and we're called 'racist' (i.e. 'heretic') for not wanting to see our countries turned into third world shitholes.
Any comments?
The First Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion.
Other reasons might be fine as a basis for revoking the permit. But it certainly does look like the Hawaiian Supreme Court blew it on this one.
Have gnu, will travel.
Every construction project on the Hawaiian volcanos is challenged in court. There is a group of Lawers that are funded by well to do Hawaiians that always claim environmental or religious reasons. This is nothing more than Lawers getting richer at the expense of scientific progress.
Send them all to Guantanamo... problem solved.
Just wondering why Atacama is not an option for this?
Long baseline astronomy is one reason for the Chile-Hawaii pairing of two telescopes of the same size. The other problem is that there are no good sites under the murky tropical skies of the equator.
I wonder how the Hawaiians will feel about this 200 years from now. At one point, the Holy Roman Church declared the Earth to be the Center of the Universe, and the Sun -like everything else- revolved around it. Not many, if at all, still believe that. Cultures and religions change over time.
When the copyright term is "forever minus a day", live every day like it's the last.
Just put a cross on the hill someplace and call it a Christian mountain. That'll take care of it.