Volkswagen Says Carbon Deviations Much Smaller Than Suspected (wsj.com)

An anonymous reader writes: Back in November, shortly after the Volkswagen emissions scandal broke, the company voluntarily disclosed the results of a quick internal probe which found that 800,000 more vehicles had inconsistencies with their CO2 output. After investigating the issue more fully, the company now says the vast majority of those cars — all but 36,000 — check out just fine. "Following extensive internal investigations and measurement checks, it is now clear that almost all of these model variants do correspond to the CO2 figures originally determine," they said. A report at the Wall Street Journal (paywalled) notes that this is good news, but reminds us that "Volkswagen has yet to clarify the much larger issue of how it came to outfit some 11 million diesel vehicles to cheat in emissions testing for nitrogen oxide."

Comments

What about the nitrogen oxides?

[grimmjeeper]

I thought the big deal was all the NOx they were releasing was way above normal.

Re:What about the nitrogen oxides?

[grimmjeeper]

To clarify my point, my understanding of the issue was that carbon wasn't the issue in the first place. Nitrogen oxides were the issue. So saying "our carbon emissions aren't bad" has nothing to do with what they were doing wrong.

Re:What about the nitrogen oxides?

[Anonymous Coward]

The NOx emissions is related to the diesel engines. The discrepancy (or "discrepancy") that VW found internally is related to gas engines, which is what this article is about.

Re: What about the nitrogen oxides?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I could care less what amount of carbon dioxide they are putting out. It isn't harmful to humans. We do breathe it out all the time, after all. (I'm not counting asphyxiation here.) Nitrous oxides are known to be unhealthy and we should be banning/regulating those not going on a wild goose chase after CO2.

Re:What about the nitrogen oxides?

[vtcodger]

Exactly: The gasoline engine thing was an additional potential problem. I suspect, but don't know for sure, that analyzing the situation is exacerbated by all car mongers including VW fudging reported gas mileage as much as they think they can get away with. (Gas mileage varies pretty much in step with CO2 emissions) In which case this would be VW deciding that any liberties they took in dealing with gas mileage/CO2 from their gasoline ingines are mostly acceptably close to industry norms.

Re:What about the nitrogen oxides?

[Solandri]

There was a separate admission by VW that their CO2 emissions figures may have been inaccurate. This applied to their gasoline vehicles as well, not just diesel. The NOx emissions were specific to just their diesels.

Re:What about the nitrogen oxides?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not hard to understand. After the initial NOx scandal broke, they subsequently revealed that they had discovered discrepancies in CO2 emissions also; this was a secondary and much less significant issue than the NOx cheat device, but it would still have been a fairly big deal if they had found widespread, non-trivial CO2 discrepancies. Now it turns out that the CO2 discrepancies werenot significant after all.

Re:What about the nitrogen oxides?

[grimmjeeper]

I missed that. Once the over reporting hype saturated me, I tuned out and didn't read much of the follow up articles.

Re:What about the nitrogen oxides?

[undecim11]

So basically, Volkswagen is saying "Yes, we knew there was a dead rat in your soup, but at least there's no fly in it"

Re: What about the nitrogen oxides?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I could care less what amount of carbon dioxide they are putting out. It isn't harmful to humans. We do breathe it out all the time, after all. (I'm not counting asphyxiation here.) Nitrous oxides are known to be unhealthy and we should be banning/regulating those not going on a wild goose chase after CO2.

And global warming isn't harmful to humans ?

Re:What about the nitrogen oxides?

[bobbied]

I thought the big deal was all the NOx they were releasing was way above normal.

As I recall, you are indeed correct... With high compression ratios needed for diesel the NOx omissions go way high and have to be dealt with... VW admitted their engine management software was changing the air/fuel mixture to reduce NOx emissions when it was being tested, which killed performance and fuel economy, but then when not under test, went with the best performance settings.

Re: What about the nitrogen oxides?

[XXongo]

Yes, I could care less what amount of carbon dioxide they are putting out. It isn't harmful to humans. We do breathe it out all the time, after all. (I'm not counting asphyxiation here.) Nitrous oxides are known to be unhealthy and we should be banning/regulating those not going on a wild goose chase after CO2.

And global warming isn't harmful to humans ?

Not directly very harmful to humans. It will mean that we will have to spend a few trillion dollars moving population away from flooded areas, and either building gigantic dikes, or else moving cities, but that's just a matter of money. Oh, and agriculture changes, of course.

Re: What about the nitrogen oxides?

[finlan]

Two separate issues were uncovered. One relating to NOX and the other to CO2.

Re:What about the nitrogen oxides?

[thegarbz]

I thought the big deal was all the NOx they were releasing was way above normal.

That was the problem with diesel cars. This is talking about the subsequent CO2 emissions problems discovered in petrol cars during an internal investigation. This is on top of the NOx problems they already have.

Re: What about the nitrogen oxides?

[Anonymous Coward]

The NOx emissions aren't higher than for comparable cars. The issue is that the ECU switched to a mode that produces less NOx (at the cost of higher emissions for other pollutants) during emissions tests, while other engines are just optimised for low NOx emissions during test conditions. The result is the same, but what the VW engineers did was illegal, whereas most other manufacturers have merely circumvented the law (as far as is currently known). It seems Opel/Vauxhall and Renault also employ some form of test cycle detection, but that is still under inveatigation.

Re: What about the nitrogen oxides?

[Anonymous Coward]

And people like this vote.

Re:What about the nitrogen oxides?

[Aighearach]

I thought the big deal was all the NOx they were releasing was way above normal.

Yeah, I don't think this attempt at damage control is going to do anything but show they're still dishonest. They're just trying to make sure that the public understands that their brand is permanently tainted, and there will be no period of repentance, contrition, or penitence.

Re:What about the nitrogen oxides?

[Aighearach]

Here in the US with NOX they've been testing other manufacturers too, and nobody else has been found with cheat devices.

Gas mileage numbers are imperfect, and based on arbitrary driving patterns, but so far the main scandal is not playing out as "everybody was doing it but VW got caught." So far, the things VW is accused of, everybody else tested has been cleared.

This is a different issue than the main issue, but there is no need to falsely point fingers at other companies.

And I for one am not going to believe VW at all. If they tried to cheat CO2 like they said, and failed to move the numbers, as they're now claiming, I'll wait until I hear it from an independent investigator. They're known, admitted liars who have yet to even make a public accounting of what the truth is and who did what. It may be that they knew they tried to cheat the CO2 numbers, and admitted it at the right time to shield the executives remaining currently, and then later decided "gosh, I don't think they can quite prove this, lets walk it back." They admitted tampering with the CO2 numbers for 800,000 cars, now they're saying, "Gosh, we tested a few of those cars and they're `good enough for us'." I'm more inclined to believe that they did in fact uncover internal evidence of tampering on those vehicles than that they just accidentally accused themselves of it.

Re: What about the nitrogen oxides?

[Aighearach]

The result is absolutely not the same. The difference is that what everybody else did, "optimised for low NOx emissions during test conditions," you're optimizing performance all the time so that it has low enough emissions that when you run the test you pass. That is not at all the same result as detecting the test, and turning on the lower emissions mode, and then turning it off when the test is done.

That isn't at all "the same." It isn't even close to the same. And yes, the NOX emissions were much much higher under real-world conditions for otherwise comparable cars.

Re: What about the nitrogen oxides?

[WillAffleckUW]

don't forget the S04.

Re:What about the nitrogen oxides?

[Anonymous Coward]

Here in the US with NOX they've been testing other manufacturers too, and nobody else has been found with cheat devices.

They must not have been testing very thoroughly. Multiple European countries are investigating a large number of cars and the German motor vehicle administration has already stated that multiple suspects from different manufacturers have been found. They will publish which ones when investigations are concluded. Meanwhile, independent environmental groups have found two other cars (an Opel Zafira and a Renault Espace) that seam to run differently when a test cycle is detected: the Opel runs in low-NOx-mode only when the rear wheels don't move and the Renault only when pre-conditioned by running the perscribed 3 test cycles first. Moreover, the vast majority of diesel cars currently on the road today emits several times more NOx than the law allows during test conditions. This can be the result of clever optimisation for test conditions (which would arguably not be much better than an actual defeat device), but I would be very surprised if it turns out that VW, GM/Opel and Renault are the only ones.

And I for one am not going to believe VW at all. If they tried to cheat CO2 like they said, and failed to move the numbers, as they're now claiming, I'll wait until I hear it from an independent investigator.

The re-testing was under supervision of the German Ministry of Transport and the Federal Motor Vehicle Administration. Moreover, VW management knows they are under extreme scrutiny. Any bending of the truth whatsoever would be disastrous at this point. It would be extremely stupid for them to lie about anything.

They're known, admitted liars who have yet to even make a public accounting of what the truth is and who did what.

Investigations are still ongoing, but a statement will be made today about what they currently know. They have to be careful, though. Anyhting that later turns out not to be the complete truth could be a big problem. I completely understand that they choose thoroughness over speed. I don't get why you think they lied -- they published everything as soon as they found out. Only the people who actually cheated have lied, but you really cannot blame an entire company for the wrongdoings of a few, especially since it seems only those directly involved were aware.

It may be that they knew they tried to cheat the CO2 numbers, and admitted it at the right time to shield the executives remaining currently, and then later decided "gosh, I don't think they can quite prove this, lets walk it back." They admitted tampering with the CO2 numbers for 800,000 cars, now they're saying, "Gosh, we tested a few of those cars and they're `good enough for us'." I'm more inclined to believe that they did in fact uncover internal evidence of tampering on those vehicles than that they just accidentally accused themselves of it.

That's not really what happened, as far as I have understood it. As part of the investigations of the NOx thing, they requested employees to come forward with anything they knew about that could be illegal or morally questionous. One employee admitted that he had prepared cars in a dishonest way before they were sent out for fuel economy/CO2 emissions testing. VW management assumed that all cars this guy has been involved with could have been tampered with, which is where the 800,000 came from. Now, they have retested each and every car, under supervision from government officials, and it turns out that only nine models (of which 36,000 cars have been sold so far) show slight deviations. An independent test agency will now re-test all cars to confirm the findings.

Re:What about the nitrogen oxides?

[Anonymous Coward]

The CO2 issue was also originally thought to mainly affect diesel cars (but also a few petrol models). It has now been concluded that five diesel models and four petrol models are affected. However, the differences are within measurement tolerances.

Re: What about the nitrogen oxides?

[Anonymous Coward]

The result is absolutely not the same. The difference is that what everybody else did, "optimised for low NOx emissions during test conditions," you're optimizing performance all the time so that it has low enough emissions that when you run the test you pass. That is not at all the same result as detecting the test, and turning on the lower emissions mode, and then turning it off when the test is done.

That isn't at all "the same." It isn't even close to the same.

There is not much difference between explicitly changing behaviour during the test and optimising an engine and increasing EGR when the engine runs at the RPM corresponding to the emissions test under the perscribed load. It may not violate the same laws, but both result in the car passing the emissions test without affection emissions on the road in any way.

And yes, the NOX emissions were much much higher under real-world conditions for otherwise comparable cars.

No they weren't.

Re:What about the nitrogen oxides?

[Anonymous Coward]

How are they dishonest? They've published everything as soon as they found out. They have even had to retract confessions that turned out not to be true (a potential defeat device in the EA288 engine, most of the CO2 issue). So far, VW is the only manufacturer that has actually admitted doing things that most if not all manufacturers seem to be doing and they are actually firing the people responsible and solving the issues.

Re:What about the nitrogen oxides?

[LifesABeach]

I'm confused about things VW. When VW engineers have globally demonstrated they're to stupid to figure things out, someone listens to them for an excuse? It's like listening to a serial shopper explain why it kept shopping was because it had a credit card, still.

Re:What about the nitrogen oxides?

[LifesABeach]

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Car company's use computerized testing equipment and test tracks, and test simulators for their cars. The one thing they don't talk about is their code. And I for one find that very troubling.

Re:What about the nitrogen oxides?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem was not so much the level of NOx emissions (which is comparable to other current diesel cars), but the fact that the software in the engine control unit switches to a mode that produces less NOx during emission tests. VW has developed a software fix, which has already been approved by the Federal Motor Vehicle Administration. This fix removes the illegal test mode and reduces overall NOx emissions without affecting performance or fuel economy. However, the new software is more dependent on accurate air mass meter (LMM) readings, so the 1.6 litre EA189 have to be retrofitted with a small plastic grid ("flow transformer") that regulates the flow in order to allow for more accurate measurements. The 2.0 litre and 1.2 litre engines do not need this, as they have a different type of LMM that comes with a flow transformer on the module already. The recalls will start in January. The fix will take less than an hour for the 1.6 engines and less than half an hour for the others.

The North-American market engines will get a different fix due to different regulations and procedures. The proposed remedies are still under review by US and California authorities.

Then there is the separate issue of the 3.0L V6 Audi engine that contains software that adjusts engine controls based on temperature in order to minimise emissions under all conditions. This is very common in Europe, but apparently illegal in the U.S. The Volkswagen Group will recall all cars sold in North American with this engine to remove the software. This will probably increase emissions, but it should not affect fuel economy or performance. However, this fix also has to be approved first by U.S. authorities. European market cars need no changes.

Re: What about the nitrogen oxides?

[Anonymous Coward]

What about that football club?

Re:What about the nitrogen oxides?

[AK Marc]

But the test pattern is to a standard. So you could buy a new car off the lot, then run the same test on it, and see if the results match the self-reported results. If not, open an investigation. If they match, then it's likely that they aren't gaming the system (and more likely they are clean for the more new cars you randomly test)

Re: What about the nitrogen oxides?

[AK Marc]

There is not much difference between explicitly changing behaviour during the test and optimising an engine and increasing EGR when the engine runs at the RPM corresponding to the emissions test under the perscribed load.

In VW's case, it was reported that pre-test the ECU program was set to a test-only program that could *never* be triggered in regular driving. How is that sporting? I take it you approve of the Cadillac scam? They settled because they set test conditions for A/C off. As the test is always conducted with the A/C off, and many people drive with the A/C on all the time. The difference in performance was high, and Cadillac claimed innocence, so GM settled before any internal conversations could be subpoenaed or execs deposed under oath, so that the truth could never be known. Was the performance target implemented with A/C on, and the test passed with a limp-along A/C off mode? Or did the 4.9l engine really have a stalling problem with the A/C on that needed a richer mix, and happened to make a large difference across the whole range?

I don't know the details, but given most cars disable the A/C compressor at WOT, I'd imagine that if the A/C compressor is disengaged at WOT and the performance is still A/C-on engine map, that'd be proof of malice, at least to my standard. Questions like that were never posed. GM paid about $100 per car to make the problem go away.

Re:What about the nitrogen oxides?

[LifesABeach]

How do you think the VW's engineers stupidity was brought to light?

So says VW ...

[gstoddart]

At this point can we trust VW when they say "it's OK, we're fine, nothing bad happened"?

I'm inclined to think no.

Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. But this isn't something which you can just take them at their word without verifying ... they've already lost credibility, which means they don't get it back just by telling us it's all OK.

Re:So says VW ...

[Anonymous Coward]

At this point can we trust VW when they say "it's OK, we're fine, nothing bad happened"?

I'm inclined to think no.

Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. But this isn't something which you can just take them at their word without verifying ... they've already lost credibility, which means they don't get it back just by telling us it's all OK.

Nope.

There needs to be independent testing of all VWs followed by random, road testing with instrumented vehicles with the sample set taken from dealerships. And it needs to be an ongoing process for at least the next 10 years.

Re:So says VW ...

[Anonymous Coward]

There needs to be independent testing of vehicles from all manufacturers followed by random, road testing with instrumented vehicles with the sample set taken from dealerships. And it needs to be an ongoing process.

FTFY

Re: So says VW ...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's already been verified by the Federal Transport Ministry and the Federal Motor Vehicle Agency.

Re:So says VW ...

[Anonymous Coward]

These are not the emissions you are looking for.

Re:So says VW ...

[tinkerton]

At this point can we trust VW when they say "it's OK, we're fine, nothing bad happened"?

I agree, independent testing is needed. They really can't be trusted. Also, the diesel cars may develop CO2 emission problems after being fixed for NO2. There is a bit of a communicating vessels problem with NO2 and CO2, the higher efficiency/power of the engines were achieved partially through higher compression which itself led to an increase of NO2

Re:So says VW ...

[bobbied]

Yea, but in the quest for GOOD PR and the propensity of your average person to not understand the difference between CO2 and NOx emissions.

Time to sell VW short... They are grasping for any PR straw they can find so this has got to be really bad..

Re:So says VW ...

[bobbied]

At this point can we trust VW when they say "it's OK, we're fine, nothing bad happened"?

I'm inclined to think no.

Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. But this isn't something which you can just take them at their word without verifying ... they've already lost credibility, which means they don't get it back just by telling us it's all OK.

VW's problem was NOx emissions and not CO2 emissions. However, your suspecting the VW is up to no good still seems to be true.

This is really a thinly veiled attempt at spinning up good PR. While they are not lying, they are trying to mislead folks about the situation, both to quell the descent in the owner's ranks and prop up the stock price. My guess is that they know some really bad news is getting ready to hit, so they cooked up this story to try and keep the "true believers" in the fold when it does.

Re:So says VW ...

[thegarbz]

At this point can we trust VW when they say "it's OK, we're fine, nothing bad happened"?

Given that VW were the ones who voluntarily reported about the CO2 issue in the first place. Yes. We probably can trust them on that.

The NOx emissions scandal on the other hand ...

Re:So says VW ...

[Aighearach]

There is, and that is how this was discovered. Since then, the same tests have been started for other manufacturers, with nobody else showing evidence of a defeat device yet.

Re:So says VW ...

[Anonymous Coward]

VW's problem was NOx emissions and not CO2 emissions.

For their DIESEL engines.
For all their cars (that's DIESEL and GASOLINE engines), they had a CO2 (well, really fuel consumption) problem.
Namely, there were allegations that they cheated by using excessive tire pressure, impossibly light motor oil well beyond their own specifications, disabled alternator and a host of other stuff, ...

Re:So says VW ...

[Anonymous Coward]

With "yet" being the key word. Most of the official investigations are still ongoing. However, independent research commissioned by environmental groups has already shown evidence that suggests cars from multiple manufacturers contain defeat devices.

Easter Eggs

[Lodlaiden]

Every program has them. Someone probably tied a bonus to the output readings, which cascaded down the line to "You get a bonus if there's a test mode"

Re:Easter Eggs

[PRMan]

Don't you mean "if you don't turn on test mode during emissions testing, I'll fire you and find someone else who will!"

Engineers rarely get bonuses.

Re:Easter Eggs

[Lodlaiden]

If you, or your guys aren't getting bonuses, you need a different spokesman. Software engineers are an efficiency on the entire business model, when used appropriately and should be rewarded as such.

Crucify [VW]

[Anonymous Coward]

Crucify [VW] on the tree of woe!

Not clarifying? No shit Sherlock

[BitZtream]

"Volkswagen has yet to clarify the much larger issue of how it came to outfit some 11 million diesel vehicles to cheat in emissions testing for nitrogen oxide."

WHAT WHAT WHAT?!?!? You mean they aren't using doublespeak and redirection like every other company and politician on the planet?!?!

Oh wait ... ...
They ARE behaving exactly like every other large corp because ... WE AREN'T GOING TO DO ANYTHING HARMFUL TO THEM.

The officers of the company will walk away clean with big checks, a few low level people have been fired. Thats where it ends.

Congress isn't going to do shit, else a few of the C-level people in VW will just out them on a few of their cocaine binge parties ... which means congress backs down like the good little bitch it is.

If you want action, stop voting for democrats and republics.

Problem solved

[Yoda222]

• 1. get caught cheating on NOX
• 2. say that there is a problem with CO2 numbers
• 3. make a lot of noise to say that in fact THE PROBLEM* was not as large as announced. (* with CO2, small letters at the bottom of the page)
• ???
• profit

Re:Problem solved

[Tailhook]

Bingo. PR BS ricocheting around the VW fanbios echo chamber.

it was just a little white lie

[turkeydance]

sorta like saying you liked the sweater you got for Christmas

VW magicians

[ole_timer]

Nothing to see over here (NO2) - the problem's CO2...oh wait CO2 is fine...problem(s) fixed

Re:VW magicians

[bobbied]

Hey, it's about PR you know.. Got to prop up that stock price and quell the grumbling of the owners..

Sadly, it's a bit too obvious to work all that well...

Re:Volkswagen is for Cows.

[Wootery]

F

Go back to troll school. Apply yourself this time.

Engineers going to be fired over this

[JoeyRox]

For failing to cheat more on the CO2 emission systems. They're obviously not up to caliber of VW's NOx engineers.

Re:Volkswagen is for Cows.

[Anonymous Coward]

Your post makes no sense.

Re:Not clarifying? No shit Sherlock

[NostalgiaForInfinity]

They ARE behaving exactly like every other large corp because ... WE AREN'T GOING TO DO ANYTHING HARMFUL TO THEM. [...] ongress isn't going to do shit, else a few of the C-level people in VW will just out them on a few of their cocaine binge parties

Sorry to rain in on your rant, but VW is a German company. A significant part of it is state-owned, and like many big German companies, it is effectively run cooperatively by management (a lot of them skilled engineers; its CEO had a Ph.D. in physics), workers, and government representatives.

If you want action, stop voting for democrats and republics.

You're a fool if you think that voting for the right people and government "action" will fix this. Shit like this will happen no matter who you vote for. The more you delude yourself into thinking that just electing the right, strong leader will fix this, the more you place democracy and freedom at risk.

Volkswagon exonerates Volkswagon ..

[nickweller]

Since when do the crooks get to investigate themselves?

Re:Volkswagon exonerates Volkswagon ..

[TWX]

For big-time crooks, that's the normal mode of operation.

It's only the small-time crooks or the crooks that don't do a good job of taking care of their benefactors that are come-down-upon.

Witch Hunt

[Anonymous Coward]

This is all a leftist, neo-pagan, earth worshiper witch hunt. Buy Volkswagon.

Re:Volkswagen is for Cows.

[Anonymous Coward]

Mooooo!!!!

Why the focus on carbon?

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead they should be focusing on the pollutants. Excessive carbon is harmless.

Re:Why the focus on carbon?

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead they should be focusing on the pollutants. Excessive carbon is harmless.

And yet, we have this little problem known as global warming presumably caused by excessive carbon......

Re:Why the focus on carbon?

[Anonymous Coward]

CO2 matters for tax, pollutants don't, so customers are a lot more worried about CO2. The NOx issue did not have any significant effect to sales (except in the U.S., where they are not allowed to sell any diesel car at the moment), but buyers became very cautious when it was announced that CO2 numbers might need to be revised.

Gas milage

[cnaumann]

While it is impossible to tell the NOx emissions of a vehicle without special instruments, the CO2 emission is very simple to measure as it is a direct function of gas mileage. Fuel is about 12/14 carbon by mass, CO2 is 12/44 carbon. Pretty much all the carbon in fuel ends up as CO2.

I could care less, but I don't.

[XXongo]

Yes, I could care less what amount of carbon dioxide they are putting out.

Ob. xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1576/

Re:Volkswagon exonerates Volkswagon ..

[Anonymous Coward]

Since when do the crooks get to investigate themselves?

The police do it all the time when one of them is charged with brutality or corruption.

(_o_)

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe this is the proper response:

(_o_)

Re:Volkswagen is for Cows.

[Anonymous Coward]

Lighten up Francis

Re:Not clarifying? No shit Sherlock

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want action, stop voting for democrats and republics.

Yeah! The free market will fix it... oh wait.

Re:Volkswagen is for Cows.

[Wootery]

Sure it does: I'm calling the troll a moron.

The better Slashdot trolls at least make an effort, but not this guy.

demo cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually there were 36000 tricked up demo cars for reviewers to rave about performance.
Someone will get fired for giving one of these to a reviewer of low emissions.

And these people have credibility?

[MoaDweeb]

Does anyone believe VW when they say anything?
Their on-going explanation has been 'rogue engineers' after all.

Sure, Volkswagen

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you are a totally disinterested party, your credibility is beyond all question.

Verify - then don't trust

[WillAffleckUW]

They're Germans.

They lie.

Just like they lied about how they needed to keep using coal, and were caught on that lying when their own scientific studies showed it was an utter fabrication.

Re:Verify - then don't trust

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a disgusting racist.

Re:Volkswagen is for Cows.

[Anonymous Coward]

They get a response in almost every thread with almost no effort. That's pretty good.

Re:Volkswagon exonerates Volkswagon ..

[Anonymous Coward]

The suspected crooks have been suspended. The investigation is being conducted by independent companies (a British accountancy and consultancy firm and an American law firm that specialises is corporate investigations) that reports directly to the boards of VW and of the holding company.

Re:Not clarifying? No shit Sherlock

[AK Marc]

Sorry to rain in on your rant, but VW is a German company. A significant part of it is state-owned,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

A state in Germany owns 12.7%, but as far as I could tell, "Germany" owns 0.0% of it. Where do you get your information from?

Re:Not clarifying? No shit Sherlock

[Anonymous Coward]

A state in Germany owns 12.7%, but as far as I could tell, "Germany" owns 0.0% of it.

Therefore, as I was saying, "a significant part of it is state owned", both in the narrow sense of "state" and in the generic sense of "state".

The fact that they are a German company means that they are cooperatively managed with workers, that workers have detailed insight into management, that they are tightly publicly supervised, and that they make lots of deals with government for special favors. The fact that the state owns significant portions of the company means that in addition the state has even more information on the inner workings of the company, as well as a strong say in its operations.

Where do you get your information from?

I can't tell whether your problem is that you are functionally illiterate or just plain stupid. Probably both.

Re:Not clarifying? No shit Sherlock

[AK Marc]

Therefore, as I was saying, "a significant part of it is state owned", both in the narrow sense of "state" and in the generic sense of "state".

The fact that they are a German company

From your specific and literlal (pedantic) definition, you shouldn't call them a "German company", but a Lower Saxony Company, as that's the only government entity that owns any of it. Anything else makes you a liar. Lying by implication to drive your personal agenda. You are deliberately misleading people to drive your personal agenda. Why?

Yeah right!

[oldmac31310]

Internal investigations rock!