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Volkswagen Says Carbon Deviations Much Smaller Than Suspected (wsj.com)

Posted by Soulskill on from the and-why-wouldn't-we-trust-their-word-on-it dept.

An anonymous reader writes: Back in November, shortly after the Volkswagen emissions scandal broke, the company voluntarily disclosed the results of a quick internal probe which found that 800,000 more vehicles had inconsistencies with their CO2 output. After investigating the issue more fully, the company now says the vast majority of those cars — all but 36,000 — check out just fine. "Following extensive internal investigations and measurement checks, it is now clear that almost all of these model variants do correspond to the CO2 figures originally determine," they said. A report at the Wall Street Journal (paywalled) notes that this is good news, but reminds us that "Volkswagen has yet to clarify the much larger issue of how it came to outfit some 11 million diesel vehicles to cheat in emissions testing for nitrogen oxide."

50 of 84 comments (clear)

  1. What about the nitrogen oxides? by grimmjeeper · · Score: 5, Informative

    I thought the big deal was all the NOx they were releasing was way above normal.

    1. Re:What about the nitrogen oxides? by grimmjeeper · · Score: 2

      To clarify my point, my understanding of the issue was that carbon wasn't the issue in the first place. Nitrogen oxides were the issue. So saying "our carbon emissions aren't bad" has nothing to do with what they were doing wrong.

    2. Re:What about the nitrogen oxides? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The NOx emissions is related to the diesel engines. The discrepancy (or "discrepancy") that VW found internally is related to gas engines, which is what this article is about.

    3. Re:What about the nitrogen oxides? by vtcodger · · Score: 1

      Exactly: The gasoline engine thing was an additional potential problem. I suspect, but don't know for sure, that analyzing the situation is exacerbated by all car mongers including VW fudging reported gas mileage as much as they think they can get away with. (Gas mileage varies pretty much in step with CO2 emissions) In which case this would be VW deciding that any liberties they took in dealing with gas mileage/CO2 from their gasoline ingines are mostly acceptably close to industry norms.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    4. Re:What about the nitrogen oxides? by Solandri · · Score: 1

      There was a separate admission by VW that their CO2 emissions figures may have been inaccurate. This applied to their gasoline vehicles as well, not just diesel. The NOx emissions were specific to just their diesels.

    5. Re:What about the nitrogen oxides? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's not hard to understand. After the initial NOx scandal broke, they subsequently revealed that they had discovered discrepancies in CO2 emissions also; this was a secondary and much less significant issue than the NOx cheat device, but it would still have been a fairly big deal if they had found widespread, non-trivial CO2 discrepancies. Now it turns out that the CO2 discrepancies werenot significant after all.

    6. Re:What about the nitrogen oxides? by grimmjeeper · · Score: 1

      I missed that. Once the over reporting hype saturated me, I tuned out and didn't read much of the follow up articles.

    7. Re:What about the nitrogen oxides? by undecim11 · · Score: 1, Funny

      So basically, Volkswagen is saying "Yes, we knew there was a dead rat in your soup, but at least there's no fly in it"

    8. Re:What about the nitrogen oxides? by bobbied · · Score: 1

      I thought the big deal was all the NOx they were releasing was way above normal.

      As I recall, you are indeed correct... With high compression ratios needed for diesel the NOx omissions go way high and have to be dealt with... VW admitted their engine management software was changing the air/fuel mixture to reduce NOx emissions when it was being tested, which killed performance and fuel economy, but then when not under test, went with the best performance settings.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    9. Re: What about the nitrogen oxides? by XXongo · · Score: 1

      Yes, I could care less what amount of carbon dioxide they are putting out. It isn't harmful to humans. We do breathe it out all the time, after all. (I'm not counting asphyxiation here.) Nitrous oxides are known to be unhealthy and we should be banning/regulating those not going on a wild goose chase after CO2.

      And global warming isn't harmful to humans ?

      Not directly very harmful to humans. It will mean that we will have to spend a few trillion dollars moving population away from flooded areas, and either building gigantic dikes, or else moving cities, but that's just a matter of money. Oh, and agriculture changes, of course.

    10. Re: What about the nitrogen oxides? by finlan · · Score: 1

      Two separate issues were uncovered. One relating to NOX and the other to CO2.

    11. Re:What about the nitrogen oxides? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I thought the big deal was all the NOx they were releasing was way above normal.

      That was the problem with diesel cars. This is talking about the subsequent CO2 emissions problems discovered in petrol cars during an internal investigation. This is on top of the NOx problems they already have.

    12. Re:What about the nitrogen oxides? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      I thought the big deal was all the NOx they were releasing was way above normal.

      Yeah, I don't think this attempt at damage control is going to do anything but show they're still dishonest. They're just trying to make sure that the public understands that their brand is permanently tainted, and there will be no period of repentance, contrition, or penitence.

    13. Re:What about the nitrogen oxides? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Here in the US with NOX they've been testing other manufacturers too, and nobody else has been found with cheat devices.

      Gas mileage numbers are imperfect, and based on arbitrary driving patterns, but so far the main scandal is not playing out as "everybody was doing it but VW got caught." So far, the things VW is accused of, everybody else tested has been cleared.

      This is a different issue than the main issue, but there is no need to falsely point fingers at other companies.

      And I for one am not going to believe VW at all. If they tried to cheat CO2 like they said, and failed to move the numbers, as they're now claiming, I'll wait until I hear it from an independent investigator. They're known, admitted liars who have yet to even make a public accounting of what the truth is and who did what. It may be that they knew they tried to cheat the CO2 numbers, and admitted it at the right time to shield the executives remaining currently, and then later decided "gosh, I don't think they can quite prove this, lets walk it back." They admitted tampering with the CO2 numbers for 800,000 cars, now they're saying, "Gosh, we tested a few of those cars and they're `good enough for us'." I'm more inclined to believe that they did in fact uncover internal evidence of tampering on those vehicles than that they just accidentally accused themselves of it.

    14. Re: What about the nitrogen oxides? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      The result is absolutely not the same. The difference is that what everybody else did, "optimised for low NOx emissions during test conditions," you're optimizing performance all the time so that it has low enough emissions that when you run the test you pass. That is not at all the same result as detecting the test, and turning on the lower emissions mode, and then turning it off when the test is done.

      That isn't at all "the same." It isn't even close to the same. And yes, the NOX emissions were much much higher under real-world conditions for otherwise comparable cars.

    15. Re: What about the nitrogen oxides? by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      don't forget the S04.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    16. Re:What about the nitrogen oxides? by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      I'm confused about things VW. When VW engineers have globally demonstrated they're to stupid to figure things out, someone listens to them for an excuse? It's like listening to a serial shopper explain why it kept shopping was because it had a credit card, still.

    17. Re:What about the nitrogen oxides? by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Car company's use computerized testing equipment and test tracks, and test simulators for their cars. The one thing they don't talk about is their code. And I for one find that very troubling.

    18. Re:What about the nitrogen oxides? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      But the test pattern is to a standard. So you could buy a new car off the lot, then run the same test on it, and see if the results match the self-reported results. If not, open an investigation. If they match, then it's likely that they aren't gaming the system (and more likely they are clean for the more new cars you randomly test)

      --
      Learn to love Alaska
    19. Re: What about the nitrogen oxides? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      There is not much difference between explicitly changing behaviour during the test and optimising an engine and increasing EGR when the engine runs at the RPM corresponding to the emissions test under the perscribed load.

      In VW's case, it was reported that pre-test the ECU program was set to a test-only program that could *never* be triggered in regular driving. How is that sporting? I take it you approve of the Cadillac scam? They settled because they set test conditions for A/C off. As the test is always conducted with the A/C off, and many people drive with the A/C on all the time. The difference in performance was high, and Cadillac claimed innocence, so GM settled before any internal conversations could be subpoenaed or execs deposed under oath, so that the truth could never be known. Was the performance target implemented with A/C on, and the test passed with a limp-along A/C off mode? Or did the 4.9l engine really have a stalling problem with the A/C on that needed a richer mix, and happened to make a large difference across the whole range?

      I don't know the details, but given most cars disable the A/C compressor at WOT, I'd imagine that if the A/C compressor is disengaged at WOT and the performance is still A/C-on engine map, that'd be proof of malice, at least to my standard. Questions like that were never posed. GM paid about $100 per car to make the problem go away.

      --
      Learn to love Alaska
    20. Re:What about the nitrogen oxides? by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      How do you think the VW's engineers stupidity was brought to light?

  2. So says VW ... by gstoddart · · Score: 1

    At this point can we trust VW when they say "it's OK, we're fine, nothing bad happened"?

    I'm inclined to think no.

    Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. But this isn't something which you can just take them at their word without verifying ... they've already lost credibility, which means they don't get it back just by telling us it's all OK.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    1. Re:So says VW ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There needs to be independent testing of vehicles from all manufacturers followed by random, road testing with instrumented vehicles with the sample set taken from dealerships. And it needs to be an ongoing process.

      FTFY

    2. Re:So says VW ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      These are not the emissions you are looking for.

    3. Re:So says VW ... by tinkerton · · Score: 1

      At this point can we trust VW when they say "it's OK, we're fine, nothing bad happened"?

      I agree, independent testing is needed. They really can't be trusted. Also, the diesel cars may develop CO2 emission problems after being fixed for NO2. There is a bit of a communicating vessels problem with NO2 and CO2, the higher efficiency/power of the engines were achieved partially through higher compression which itself led to an increase of NO2

    4. Re:So says VW ... by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Yea, but in the quest for GOOD PR and the propensity of your average person to not understand the difference between CO2 and NOx emissions.

      Time to sell VW short... They are grasping for any PR straw they can find so this has got to be really bad..

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    5. Re:So says VW ... by bobbied · · Score: 1

      At this point can we trust VW when they say "it's OK, we're fine, nothing bad happened"?

      I'm inclined to think no.

      Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. But this isn't something which you can just take them at their word without verifying ... they've already lost credibility, which means they don't get it back just by telling us it's all OK.

      VW's problem was NOx emissions and not CO2 emissions. However, your suspecting the VW is up to no good still seems to be true.

      This is really a thinly veiled attempt at spinning up good PR. While they are not lying, they are trying to mislead folks about the situation, both to quell the descent in the owner's ranks and prop up the stock price. My guess is that they know some really bad news is getting ready to hit, so they cooked up this story to try and keep the "true believers" in the fold when it does.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    6. Re:So says VW ... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      At this point can we trust VW when they say "it's OK, we're fine, nothing bad happened"?

      Given that VW were the ones who voluntarily reported about the CO2 issue in the first place. Yes. We probably can trust them on that.

      The NOx emissions scandal on the other hand ...

    7. Re:So says VW ... by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      There is, and that is how this was discovered. Since then, the same tests have been started for other manufacturers, with nobody else showing evidence of a defeat device yet.

  3. Easter Eggs by Lodlaiden · · Score: 1

    Every program has them. Someone probably tied a bonus to the output readings, which cascaded down the line to "You get a bonus if there's a test mode"

    --
    Suborbital [spaceflight] is the special olympics of spaceflight. - Rei
    1. Re:Easter Eggs by PRMan · · Score: 2

      Don't you mean "if you don't turn on test mode during emissions testing, I'll fire you and find someone else who will!"

      Engineers rarely get bonuses.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    2. Re:Easter Eggs by Lodlaiden · · Score: 2

      If you, or your guys aren't getting bonuses, you need a different spokesman. Software engineers are an efficiency on the entire business model, when used appropriately and should be rewarded as such.

      --
      Suborbital [spaceflight] is the special olympics of spaceflight. - Rei
  4. Not clarifying? No shit Sherlock by BitZtream · · Score: 1

    "Volkswagen has yet to clarify the much larger issue of how it came to outfit some 11 million diesel vehicles to cheat in emissions testing for nitrogen oxide."

    WHAT WHAT WHAT?!?!? You mean they aren't using doublespeak and redirection like every other company and politician on the planet?!?!

    Oh wait ... ...
    They ARE behaving exactly like every other large corp because ... WE AREN'T GOING TO DO ANYTHING HARMFUL TO THEM.

    The officers of the company will walk away clean with big checks, a few low level people have been fired. Thats where it ends.

    Congress isn't going to do shit, else a few of the C-level people in VW will just out them on a few of their cocaine binge parties ... which means congress backs down like the good little bitch it is.

    If you want action, stop voting for democrats and republics.

    --
    Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  5. Problem solved by Yoda222 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    • 1. get caught cheating on NOX
    • 2. say that there is a problem with CO2 numbers
    • 3. make a lot of noise to say that in fact THE PROBLEM* was not as large as announced. (* with CO2, small letters at the bottom of the page)
    • ???
    • profit
    1. Re:Problem solved by Tailhook · · Score: 1

      Bingo. PR BS ricocheting around the VW fanbios echo chamber.

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
  6. it was just a little white lie by turkeydance · · Score: 1

    sorta like saying you liked the sweater you got for Christmas

  7. VW magicians by ole_timer · · Score: 1

    Nothing to see over here (NO2) - the problem's CO2...oh wait CO2 is fine...problem(s) fixed

    --
    nothing to see here - move along
    1. Re:VW magicians by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Hey, it's about PR you know.. Got to prop up that stock price and quell the grumbling of the owners..

      Sadly, it's a bit too obvious to work all that well...

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  8. Re:Volkswagen is for Cows. by Wootery · · Score: 1

    F

    Go back to troll school. Apply yourself this time.

  9. Engineers going to be fired over this by JoeyRox · · Score: 4, Funny

    For failing to cheat more on the CO2 emission systems. They're obviously not up to caliber of VW's NOx engineers.

  10. Re:Not clarifying? No shit Sherlock by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

    They ARE behaving exactly like every other large corp because ... WE AREN'T GOING TO DO ANYTHING HARMFUL TO THEM. [...] ongress isn't going to do shit, else a few of the C-level people in VW will just out them on a few of their cocaine binge parties

    Sorry to rain in on your rant, but VW is a German company. A significant part of it is state-owned, and like many big German companies, it is effectively run cooperatively by management (a lot of them skilled engineers; its CEO had a Ph.D. in physics), workers, and government representatives.

    If you want action, stop voting for democrats and republics.

    You're a fool if you think that voting for the right people and government "action" will fix this. Shit like this will happen no matter who you vote for. The more you delude yourself into thinking that just electing the right, strong leader will fix this, the more you place democracy and freedom at risk.

  11. Volkswagon exonerates Volkswagon .. by nickweller · · Score: 1

    Since when do the crooks get to investigate themselves?

  12. Re:Volkswagon exonerates Volkswagon .. by TWX · · Score: 1

    For big-time crooks, that's the normal mode of operation.

    It's only the small-time crooks or the crooks that don't do a good job of taking care of their benefactors that are come-down-upon.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  13. Gas milage by cnaumann · · Score: 1

    While it is impossible to tell the NOx emissions of a vehicle without special instruments, the CO2 emission is very simple to measure as it is a direct function of gas mileage. Fuel is about 12/14 carbon by mass, CO2 is 12/44 carbon. Pretty much all the carbon in fuel ends up as CO2.

  14. I could care less, but I don't. by XXongo · · Score: 1

    Yes, I could care less what amount of carbon dioxide they are putting out.

    Ob. xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1576/

  15. Re:Volkswagen is for Cows. by Wootery · · Score: 1

    Sure it does: I'm calling the troll a moron.

    The better Slashdot trolls at least make an effort, but not this guy.

  16. And these people have credibility? by MoaDweeb · · Score: 1

    Does anyone believe VW when they say anything?
    Their on-going explanation has been 'rogue engineers' after all.

    --
    New Zealanders are well balanced with a chip on each shoulder. One represents Australia, the other the rest of the world
  17. Verify - then don't trust by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    They're Germans.

    They lie.

    Just like they lied about how they needed to keep using coal, and were caught on that lying when their own scientific studies showed it was an utter fabrication.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  18. Re:Not clarifying? No shit Sherlock by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    Sorry to rain in on your rant, but VW is a German company. A significant part of it is state-owned,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    A state in Germany owns 12.7%, but as far as I could tell, "Germany" owns 0.0% of it. Where do you get your information from?

    --
    Learn to love Alaska
  19. Re:Not clarifying? No shit Sherlock by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    Therefore, as I was saying, "a significant part of it is state owned", both in the narrow sense of "state" and in the generic sense of "state".

    The fact that they are a German company

    From your specific and literlal (pedantic) definition, you shouldn't call them a "German company", but a Lower Saxony Company, as that's the only government entity that owns any of it. Anything else makes you a liar. Lying by implication to drive your personal agenda. You are deliberately misleading people to drive your personal agenda. Why?

    --
    Learn to love Alaska