Reddit Is Banning Users That Post Star Wars 7 Spoilers (softpedia.com)

An anonymous reader writes: A few naughty users have started spamming Reddit with Star Wars 7 spoilers, but also hoaxes. Some known Star Wars fans with Reddit accounts were even bombarded with PMs about the upcoming film, with trolls trying to ruin the movie before they saw it. As a result, Reddit is now banning any user that posts Star Wars 7 spoilers. The movie officially launches tomorrow; do you plan to see it? Do you care about spoilers?

Comments

What about me?

[Anonymous Coward]

So, how about people who like other movies and don't like getting spoilers?
Or is this a Star Wars Master Race thing where everyone else are second class citizens that doesn't deserve protection?

Re: What about me?

[Anonymous Coward]

Reddit is shameless about who they take bribes from.

Re:What about me?

[Rei]

I'm curious as to how Slashdotters would react if I were to post a giant Star Wars spoiler here.

Re:What about me?

[MisterSquid]

So, how about people who like other movies and don't like getting spoilers? Or is this a Star Wars Master Race thing where everyone else are second class citizens that doesn't deserve protection?

Encountering new narratives is one of narrative's fundamental pleasures. Novelty is so important to narratives that in many cases entire classes of aesthetic effects and domains of hermeneutic structures depend on an audience's relative ignorance about what happens next.

So, it's not just courtesy to label narrative "secrets" spoilers if they are unexpected; doing so protects the value of narratives for future audiences, and the act of people coming to their own understandings about a narrative is worth protecting because, in many ways, our very identities are constructed from the kinds of narratives we encounter and the lessons we learn as we experience (and later reflect on) the things we experience as we discover a narrative that is new to us.

I take a pragmatic approach. If I'm on the web and writing about a recently-produced (within a year) narrative, I label my reveals with clear ***SPOILER ALERT***s. On the other opposite hand, if I'm writing for (say) a literary journal about Thomas Pynchon's _The Crying of Lot 49_, I don't bother with them because the target audience understands they are expected to have already read the narrative I'm discussing.

But most discussions which contain narrative "secrets" fall somewhere in the middle, like a 400-year old story called _Romeo and Juliet_ which is one of the cornerstones of Modern aesthetic culture. Or maybe you're discussing a 2500-year old story about a king searching for the cause of the plague across his kingdom called _Oedipus Rex_ (well, the spoiler comes up front in that play, but you get the idea). My habit is to label those middle-ground reveals as spoilers, too, something I think everyone should do to protect the value of those narratives for future generations.

In other words, be a good human being and care for those who come after you by labelling your spoilers and being sensitive to the audience who will encounter what you write perhaps in an entirely different context.

I applaud Reddit's decision to block (banning may be a little extreme) users who want to destroy the aesthetic and epistemological value of a long-awaited narrative. I wish Slashdot and all my other Internet favorites would do something similar not only for Abrams' _The Force Awakens_ but for ALL narratives.

For my part, I knowingly took a risk even coming here to post, given that Slashdot is (rightly) renown for allowing all speech to flourish (to various degrees subject to the moderation system). But that uncritical acceptance of all speech also means that I will not come back to this thread until AFTER I've seen Abrams' contribution to the Star Wars franchise.

See you at the movies!

Re:What about me?

[Anonymous Coward]

Luke, use the downforce!

Re:What about me?

[c]

Encountering new narratives is one of narrative's fundamental pleasures.

Then there's Hollywood, which prefers to substitute explosions for new and novel narrative.

Re:What about me?

[Zontar The Mindless]

Eventually he'll be laughing out the other side once someone congratulates him with a right cross.

Re: What about me?

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot is trying to get bought by Reddit. Soon it'll be goodbye.

Slashdot is dead... Long live Slashdot!

Re:What about me?

[Anonymous Coward]

Reddit is not banning anybody.
The mods of the general movies sub-reddit are banning people who post them in the area they control. The PSA linked in the summary tells people to avoid certain other sub-reddits where the spoilers are also being posted.

Or is this a Star Wars Master Race thing where everyone else are second class citizens that doesn't deserve protection?

Goood, gooooood, let the Butthurt flow through you.

Re:What about me?

[Chrisq]

So, how about people who like other movies and don't like getting spoilers?

Rosebud was his sled

Re:What about me?

[Simulant]

The needs of the many, my friend. The needs of the many.

Re: What about me?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Slashdot is trying to get bought by Reddit.

Thanks for the spoiler warning, you insensitive clod!

Re:What about me?

[Austerity Empowers]

I'm curious about the Star Wars spoiler ban as well, is it universal or just this one?

I don't know about this ban, there is a thread on reddit whose entire purpose is star wars spoilers. You can find out who lives, dies, and does or does not appear... if you want to do it. The threads are still there, I won't link them for a number of reasons. My opinion though is if a movie survives only because of "spoilers", it's probably not worth paying theater prices.

Re:What about me?

[Austerity Empowers]

And now we are all freed of the need to line up opening week for what appears to be a generally good but not really that great sci-fi movie, just because we weren't sure who would die.

Re:What about me?

[david_thornley]

Yeah, but I still want to go into it without knowing what's going to happen. I've avoided the trailers. I haven't looked for anything on the movie. I'm seeing it Tuesday, and I want to go in knowing as little as I can get away with. I'd see it anyway on Tuesday if I knew the complete plot, and see it again if it's good enough, so it is a matter of how I want to watch the movie.

This is personal preference. I don't care if there's websites out there with careful accounts and analyses of the movie, as long as I'm not likely to stumble across any spoilers. I understand that, in some cultures, people want to know the plot and ending before they go to a movie, and I'm fine with that.

Re:What about me?

[squiggleslash]

Well, it's not actually true to begin with and the truth is less discriminatory. One Reddit forum is banning people who post spoilers. And they probably would do it for any major movie coming out.

Reddit itself isn't taking any stand on it. Supposedly (according to the linked article) virtually every post in /r/4chan is a spoiler right now...

But what do I know? I'm just Kylo Ren's brother.

Re:What about me?

[Hognoxious]

I wasn't aware of a +1 Lah-di-dah option.

Re:What about me?

[The-Ixian]

You are right, people should be respectful of each other.

I think what is being discussed here are people who are not respectful and take pleasure in annoying others.

However, I personally don't believe that any narrative can be spoiled.

Two reasons I know this to be true (at least for me):

First, I never am the first to watch anything. I watch TV series and movies when they are "free" on Netflix or Amazon Prime. If they are not there, I will never see it. It takes a LONG time for stuff to get there, if it ever does. I hear every detail of these narratives many times and in many forms. But it doesn't ruin it for me. I will watch these things and be very entertained despite having had years worth of spoilers all around me.

Second, is the fact that I live on this planet as a human being. There have been thousands of generations of human beings that went before me and my exact life story has been and is being experienced countless times. Yet, to me, in my single instance, everything is new as though it has never been experienced before. Even stuff that I thought I already knew, stories that I thought I had extracted every bit meaning out of will seem new when viewed through today's eyes. Insights that were never visible before are suddenly clear because my own life's narrative has shifted subtly, changing the focus of my internal lens. How can you spoil a narrative when your own narrative is constantly evolving?

What I am saying, is that even if you know key parts or even the whole story ahead of time, it doesn't matter because you can immerse yourself in a different dimension of the story every time.

Enjoyment of a narrative doesn't depend on a lack of fore-knowledge.

Re:What about me?

[Rei]

That's not the difference between a spoiler and a wing. A spoiler is a device designed to "spoil" unwanted air flows and reduce drag, while a wing is a device designed to create downforce (at the cost of drag).

Spoilers are often integrated and wings often on supports, but that's not the difference between the two.

Re:What about me?

[Krishnoid]

Or is this a Star Wars Master Race thing

More like a religion, actually.

Re:What about me?

[Locke2005]

No, no, no... Rey is Kylo Ren's twin _sister_! They are both the result of an incestuous relationship between Luke and Leia, so the farce is strong in them both!

Re:What about me?

[Cederic]

They wont, following their conviction for assault and possibly battery.

Maybe you're the sort of cunt that thinks violence is justified in such situations. The courts disagree.

Re:What about me?

[Darinbob]

I once got a spoiler for The Sixth Sense from the local newspaper, before the movie was even out on video. Apparently these reporters think that everyone sees a movie within the first few weeks or they'll never see it.

I have also seen these spoiler trolls. There was a tee-shirt I saw worn by someone in a group photo for some charity event, which read "Hermione Dies". This was after the last book was out but before the movie. I spent half the day pounding my head against the wall (or at least it felt that way). Push myself to forget.. forget... forget... damn it doesn't work that way... Before someone gets mad at me, that spoiler may or may not have been correct, it was designed only to piss poeple off; it pisses them off before they even know if it's true or a hoax, it pisses them off if it turns out to be true, it pisses them off if it turns out to be wrong.

And it's not just Reddit. The Steam forums for Fallout 4 was busy banning people who were posting about what they claimed to have seen in pre-release copies, and were busy banning for a few weeks after it came out. And yesterday they were banning posters with Star Wars spoilers too.

It's the lulz. Anyone who does stuff for the lulz should have their computers smashed by Jesse Venture who's wearing a unitard that reads "For The Lulz".

Re:What about me?

[lgw]

I've been the victim of that level of violence several times (hopefully not because I was being a dick). No one was ever held legally accountable. Unless you have the name of your assailant, so that there's no work for the police to do, it seems they won't bother. It really pisses me off.

Re:What about me?

[CanadianMacFan]

No, as you walk by the line you say that you can't believe something about the movie that sounds like a spoiler so everyone thinks that you've ruined the movie for them but what you mentioned doesn't actually happen or is the opposite.

Re: What about me?

[Rei]

If it's designed to create downforce at the cost of increased drag, it's a wing, not a spoiler. It's literally in the name. A wing is, just like on a plane, a device that creates lift (on a car, it's an upside down wing, so the lift vector is directed downward), at the cost of drag. A spoiler literally spoils unwanted airflows - that is, it takes laminar airflows and makes them turbulent, causing vortices on the surface that help prevent the main laminar stream from overly detaching, or to create localized slowings of the air to direct more of the flow into another direction where it will cause less overall drag.

It's right there in the name.

That said, there are some devices which sort of bridge both bounds, having both spoiler and wing properties, or behaving more like one or the other at different speeds, or being adjustable between being a spoiler and wing.
 

Re:What about me?

[antdude]

Darth Sidious is alive? :O

Re: What about me?

[dunkelfalke]

A spoiler does not create downforce, it spoils lift. Airplanes have wings which create lift. This lift is counterproductive when the airplane has landed and needs to brake. Thus spoilers are deployed, which create a controlled stall on the wing, depriving the wing of lift so the whole weight of the aircraft can rest on the landing gear.

On cars, at higher speeds the whole car body starts creating lift, which makes traction and braking problematic. And here come the spoilers - they disrupt the airflow and thus reduce lift.

Re:What about me?

[dave420]

Yeah, the world was much better when racists and sexists could feel free to vomit hatred into the faces of the oppressed with the certainty no one would speak out against them. Aaaah simpler times.

Re: What about me?

[Rei]

A spoiler does not create downforce

Which, if you had actually read, is what I just said: "If it's designed to create downforce at the cost of increased drag, it's a wing, not a spoiler."

, it spoils lift.

Spoilers on cars have nothing to do with lift. They are about spoiling laminar airflows to reduce drag. Spoilers on airplanes do the exact same thing - spoil laminar airflows - but the side effect is that by pushing air from laminar into turbulent they dramatically lower the wing's LD ratio.

Re:What about me?

[Triklyn]

the internet has never been, and i'd argue should never be a "safe space"

as hitchens put it,

-who would you have decide for you, what you can and cannot hear? is anyone good enough to decide for YOU?
-even the most vile of effluent might have a grain of truth, why do you believe what you believe is true? it's always good to examine first principles

-You are not just quashing the right of one person to say it, you are also removing the right of every other person to hear what that one person has to say.

we lost that man too soon, he'd have had a field day with this era of censorial instinct

Re:What about me?

[Triklyn]

i actually wouldn't be like... super surprised, but in a satirical context.

may you be touched by his noodly appendage and all.

sometimes ridicule is the only response.

Re: What about me?

[beastofburdon]

Sadly this has proven true in the last several years.

Re:What about me?

[beastofburdon]

The man was a legend, and was usually right. This was probably the truest thing he ever said too.
The first amendment was not written to protect popular speech, it was written to protect the speech that was unpopular, hated, derided, and frowned upon. All attempts to limit free speech are for the purpose of gaining or retaining power, there are no exceptions.

Fool me once...

[TWX]

...shame on you.

This is directed at Abrams, not at any Star Wars movie he's involved with.

Just remember, the best pickup line for that fangirl is, "do you want to see my hairy wookiee?"

Probably won't work, but it's still the best of a slew of really terrible options.

Let's see where Voat comes down on this.

[Mal-2]

This is an interesting situation (and one without any immense consequences) where the principles of free speech and playing nice obviously run squarely into each other, and how a forum handles the conflict will be informative as to how they might handle more significant incidents. To me, it seems that if a subreddit wants to ban spoilers, they can, but it shouldn't be site-wide. In fact, those wishing to talk openly about a movie most people haven't seen should be encouraged to do it in a subreddit where everyone knows going in that spoilers are not just allowed but welcomed.

Re:Let's see where Voat comes down on this.

[RogueyWon]

It's not really a freedom of speech issue, surely? Reddit is a privately owned and operated forum and it's entirely up to them which users they want to ban and which posts they want to delete.

Now if we got the point where Reddit was so omnipresent in modern life that it was impossible to find a job or take out a mortgage or order a pizza without being on Reddit, I might start to get concerned.

But it isn't. It's a fairly daft forum filled with a lot of people who mostly talk crap (so entirely different from Slashdot, of course). Being banned from it will not ruin your life. You want to post there, you follow their rules.

It does raise questions about how best to moderate a large forum. But not about freedom of speech.

Re:Let's see where Voat comes down on this.

[Anonymous Coward]

Voat is dying. After the dweeb outrage directed at reddit, many people moved to voat. Six weeks later, voat died. It had many new members, but they all drifted back to their old haunts. All you'll see now is angry people talking to no one, and anti-SJW in their echo chambers.

Re:Let's see where Voat comes down on this.

[Mal-2]

I never said Reddit was obliged to respect freedom of speech. I was merely stating that refusal to do so now is highly indicative of their inclination to refuse to do so when it actually matters.

Having checked Voat, spoilers are flying but they're clearly marked -- probably because people aren't getting banned for breaking some unwritten site-wide rule.

Re:Let's see where Voat comes down on this.

[Assoluto]

I disagree. Many people, particularly Americans, think freedom of speech is all about the first amendment. There's freedom of speech as defined in the first amendment and then there's the general principle of freedom of speech.

In my opinion, if an organisation is taking action to prevent you from speaking freely then it's a freedom of speech issue. It doesn't matter if the censorship is being performed by a government or a private company. I'm not saying that private companies have any obligation to promote free speech, but censorship on a private website is still most definitely a freedom of speech issue.

In this case, the matter is so trivial it wouldn't even be worth discussing if it weren't for Reddit's long history of censorship. As it is, this seems to be another case of Reddit making up rules on the fly and banning people when they haven't done anything that's against the terms of the site.

Re:Let's see where Voat comes down on this.

[RogueyWon]

I've seen good discussion forums over the years which have had pretty ban-happy policies. I've also seen good forums turn into bad ones because they weren't ban-happy enough and antisocial behaviour was allowed to get out of control. By and large, if you're banned from an online forum, your freedom of speech is not being suppressed, provided you have the ability to go and say the same thing somewhere else.

Of course, I've also seen things swing the other way. I've seen forums which have become nasty, incestuous cliques because of ban-happy admins who instantly remove any user they personally disagree with. That's an increasingly common problem as a growing number of forums are administered by a category of people usually described using a particular three letter acronym (which I personally think is a bad term for them, preferring Angry Campus Narcissist). But again, it's not a freedom of speech issue (at least in respect of online forums); it's a forum management issue.

The biggest issue is generally whether or not you have decent admins.

If there's a separate problem on Reddit that users are banned for behaviours which were not previous forbidden, then their problem may well just be that they have bad admins. But on the other hand, I have little sympathy for that particular category of forum user who is determined to practice every single aggravating behaviour which isn't explicitly forbidden and expects that they should be immune from a ban as a result.

Re:Let's see where Voat comes down on this.

[SirSlud]

> and then there's the general principle of freedom of speech

You mean the principle that doesn't exist?

Re:Let's see where Voat comes down on this.

[ultranova]

It's not really a freedom of speech issue, surely? Reddit is a privately owned and operated forum and it's entirely up to them which users they want to ban and which posts they want to delete.

Reddit being privately owned means Reddit imposing censorship doesn't violate the First Amendment. However, I'm becoming more and more convinced it should. It's not exactly a secret that companies own the US government. When those very same companies claim all places where people gather as their private property, then it seems to me that the de facto rulers get to decide what can and cannot be discussed. That's a problem for functioning democracy.

Re:Let's see where Voat comes down on this.

[smooth wombat]

In my opinion, if an organisation is taking action to prevent you from speaking freely then it's a freedom of speech issue.

Your opinion is wrong. The Constitution, where the whole freedom of speech comes from, is only talking about the government's ability to censor speech.

The Constitution is silent when it comes to companies or organizations who are free to impose almost any rule regarding speech they want.

Re:Let's see where Voat comes down on this.

[asdfman2000]

The Constitution, where the whole freedom of speech comes from, is only talking about the government's ability to censor speech.

I pray you are not an American. If so, the education system has completely failed you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#Origins

The American Constitution does not grant any rights. The rights that are protected by the constitution are fundamental human rights. The constitution merely says the government cannot encroach on these rights. This is seemingly minor, but very important distinction.

Meh.

[waspleg]

The movie officially launches tomorrow; do you plan to see it? Do you care about spoilers?

No. No. Who wants to pack in like that anyway? If I go at all it'll be at an off hour hopefully long after the crowds have dwindled. If it's another Lens Flare the Final Frontier movie I won't have any interest anyway.

J.J. Abrams isn't terrible but he is all about fan service and playing it safe so I don't expect much in the way of interesting. I'm sure Disney wants their money's worth.

Re:Meh.

[Jason Levine]

I'm actually going to wait a week and see it on Christmas Day. We're Jewish and so Christmas tends to be That-Day-When-We-Can't-Go-Out-And-Do-Anything-Because-Everything-Is-Closed. Except for Chinese restaurants. Yes, it's a stereotype but we do go out for Chinese food on Christmas. Star Wars and Chinese food means I'm actually looking forward to Christmas Day!

Re:Meh.

[aaaaaaargh!]

I was planning to watch it, but the aggressive marketing has really put me off. I'll probably skip this one or watch it much later.

The same thing happened for me with the Hobbit movies and Fallout 4. I have no problem with normal amounts of advertising, but too much is just too much.

Re:Meh.

[LaurenCates]

Heh. I'm doing Jewish Christmas, same as you, same plan and everything.

And I'm not even Jewish.

Re:Meh.

[Nidi62]

I'm actually going to wait a week and see it on Christmas Day. We're Jewish and so Christmas tends to be That-Day-When-We-Can't-Go-Out-And-Do-Anything-Because-Everything-Is-Closed. Except for Chinese restaurants. Yes, it's a stereotype but we do go out for Chinese food on Christmas. Star Wars and Chinese food means I'm actually looking forward to Christmas Day!

When I was in grad school I had an Arabic teacher who was a nice guy but was also a fairly militant atheist. He would say that his family would always eat Chinese on Christmas because they were the only place open. Of course, he also thought that urban living was the height of civilization and said he never went outside I285 (the Atlanta perimeter bypass).

Re:Meh.

[The-Ixian]

From what I hear, Arnold returns as an older robot but can still kick ass.

Re:Meh.

[Nidi62]

The same thing happened for me with the Hobbit movies and Fallout 4. I have no problem with normal amounts of advertising, but too much is just too much.

I told my wife I wanted to get Fallout 4 but was going to wait a year or so to get it and she said why don't you just get it now? I told her I'm just cheap :)

Re:Meh.

[The-Ixian]

Doesn't matter when you watch it. They will get your money one way or the other.

Re:Meh.

[The-Ixian]

Sorry, that was a little flippant.

I actually do understand your point.

For me the thing that really turns me off about Star Wars in general is the merchandising... I walked into a Walgreens and immediately saw at least 3 Star Wars branded items. Star Wars Make-up for women, Star Wars candy and Star Wars holiday decorations... and that was just within about 10 feet of the entrance to the store.

I am going to be doing last might Xmas shopping and I am absolutely dreading it... as I always do when I procrastinate to the "point of no return" where I know I can no longer get a shipped item before The Day. The crowds are only half the source of my anxiety, the other half is the obscene marketing and xmas muzak...

Re:Meh.

[war4peace]

xmas muzak which starts exactly December 1st and lasts until two months before Easter, when it's replaced by... Easter muzak.

Re:Meh.

[Locke2005]

And, Dumbledore gets arrested for pedophilia... turns out he likes "mentoring" young wizard boys just a little too much...

Re:Meh.

[Whorhay]

I don't even see/hear the advertisements because I just don't consume my entertainment with ads. That said I'm still sick of it simply from everyone else hyping it constantly.

Re:Meh.

[Cederic]

You didn't ask him why he didn't just cook at home, as he does every other fucking day?

Yeah, keep feeding the pig

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope you Star Wars fanboys love the fact that you're supporting a company that is actively throwing their IT staff under the bus... but hey, don't let that stop you from sucking up to another multinational that only cares about profits. I just hope anyone who buys into this losses their job in the same fashion soon.

Mace Windu isn't dead!

[jcr]

He's teaching a yoga class at Tatooine Community College, and selling "Jedi Force Crystals" on the Trade Federation shopping channel.

-jcr

This time I care

[portwojc]

For me I have only watched the trailers and the one trailer that was put together. I try my hardest to avoid all other information about the movie and can so I have done so very well. I especially ignore everything right now even "spoiler free" reviews. I want to try and relive the experience I had as a kid. You knew next to nothing going in and came out with an imagination running wild. I have emptied my cup and I await till tomorrow to fill it.

Banning is a bit heavy handed. They should have just created a Yoda translator plugin for their website and forced those users to have it for a week.

Re:This time I care

[The-Ixian]

But no matter how hard you try, you will never "recapture" that childhood experience.

You know why?

Because you have already seen a Star Wars movie. You already have been "spoiled" because the ideas are not new. It is the same universe with the same rules and generally the same type of characters.

Re:This time I care

[war4peace]

I'm really curious how would this fit with the book-created Universe. Probably not at all, which is a wee bit sad as far as I'm concerned.

Re:This time I care

[Nidi62]

I'm really curious how would this fit with the book-created Universe. Probably not at all, which is a wee bit sad as far as I'm concerned.

Pretty sure they declared the entire expanded universe books as non-canon. Which is sad, I remember liking the Rogue Squadron books, the Corellian Trilogy, and I think I had a little anthology of short stories that were pretty good.

Re: This time I care

[wertigon]

No stupid you got it all wrong, it's C3PO that dies!

I loved the scene, too!

Re:This time I care

[war4peace]

It is sad indeed.
Oh well, I guess sacrificing 200 books for one (so far) movie must look good in some ledger.

Spoilers

[JBMcB]

I've seen spoilers already. There's a "Shocking turn of events" at the end of the movie.

I could care less that I know, I'm still going to see it, but not opening weekend.

Re:Spoilers

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen spoilers already. There's a "Shocking turn of events" at the end of the movie.

I could care less that I know, I'm still going to see it, but not opening weekend.

Princess Leia has a penis? No wait! That's Star Wars 8: The Crying Game

Re:Spoilers

[malditaenvidia]

I could care less

So you do care. You care-bear, you.

Re:Spoilers

[JBMcB]

So you do care. You care-bear, you.

On a scale of 1 to 100, I care 2, so yes, I could still care less.

Re:Spoilers

[The-Ixian]

Are all of the trees trying to kill everyone by making them commit suicide?

Does it turn out that everyone is dead and we are just seeing ghosts?

Perhaps the all of the SW universe is just a community isolated from the rest of the galactic community for ideological reasons...

I can't wait to find out what the twist is!

Re:Spoilers

[Locke2005]

Not a penis, exactly... it turns out Princess Leia was using R2D2 as a vibrator... really hard to clean him up afterwards, too!

Re:Spoilers

[AthanasiusKircher]

Maybe next time use the normal phrase instead of some screwed up version you misheard, mmh sunshine?

Actually, the phrase "could care less" dates back roughly 60 years in English, and the phrase "couldn't care less" is perhaps only 10 years older.

So, they basically emerged around the same time and always mean the same thing, i.e., "I don't care." As that link discusses, there are plenty of other English idioms that have similarly irrational constructions. Grammatical logic does not trump idiomatic usage.

And as for your contention that it's a "screwed up version," you might have a look at this article, which include statistics showing that even in the New York Times (usually somewhat conservative in usage matters), the two phrases have become almost equally common since 2000. And recent databases of spoken rather than written English show that (the supposedly "screwed up") "could care less" is roughly five times more common than (your supposedly "correct") "couldn't care less." Whether you like it or not, the usage you claim is "wrong" has become quite standard.

Regardless, this whole "grammar police" discussion is pointless. As usual with these sort of things, language marches on, and the grammar wackos are the ones who make trouble for everyone. Without you folks, we'd likely transition to "could care less" completely in a few decades, and "couldn't care less" would mostly die out. But no -- you'll keep it alive, because you think it's "more logical," and in 30 years nobody educated will be able to use either phrase, because "couldn't" will have become so rare as to sound weird, and "could" will be branded as "wrong" by the few wackos still holding the line.

Whatever. I could care less... or, actually, ya know, I really couldn't....

Re:Spoilers

[AthanasiusKircher]

Oh, and by the way, yeah -- I know there were a few minor typos in that post. I was typing fast. I saw them before I hit "submit," but, ya know what?

I really actually do even care less about those minor typos than the whole debate about the phrase anyway. So, I was right when I said before about the usage debate -- I COULD care less. And now I do!

Re:Spoiler alart!

[jcr]

Who's Kylo Ren? Is he Darth Stimpy's friend?

-jcr

Um

[damicatz]

Reddit isn't banning anyone. The moderators of that particular subreddit are and they are not Reddit employees. Someone doesn't seem to understand how Reddit works.

Re:Um

[radarskiy]

The Cossacks work for the czar.

Re:Um

[damicatz]

No it is not the same thing.

If you are banned by a moderator, you are banned from that specific subreddit.

If you are banned by a Reddit employee, you lose access to your entire account.

Dumb-ass precedent

[geekmux]

Reddit, how stupid can you get with free speech to want to pull something like this? And is Star Wars the only movie line that can command this kind of stupidity, or should we expect this crap again when the next Hunger Games comes out?

Spoilers happen all the damn time online, across many forms of entertainment. If studios want to avoid this crap next time around, then release it everywhere on the same day. At least you're only fighting time zones then.

Re:Spoiler alart!

[Jason Levine]

And now I just got a mental image of Jar-Jar turning to the Dark Side, becoming Darth Stimpy, and Kylo Ren telling him "You eeediot!" I don't know if this is awesome or just sad.

Misleading?

[MrLint]

"Reddit" is banning users? *OR* just the mods of one sub?

Re:Misleading?

[cfalcon]

This is a really dumb headline, and I'm surprised it has so many people on the bandwagon about it. You nailed it entirely, but its actually more than one- not that this makes any difference at all.

What's going on is not spoilers- there's whole places devoted to posting spoilers. This is a reaction to a sustained effort of the trolls to spoil the movie. You'll be reading a comment about something else and find out Vader is Luke's father inline just like that. Or the tags used to organize stuff will themselves not be tags, but spoilers. Or the trolls will direct message people with a spoiler, so if you busted open your email and some jackass had an innocuous looking thing that was Star Wars spoilers, etc. Because of the latency between input and understanding in text, you could easily read a whole sentence before realizing what it says, etc.

And OF COURSE this is just in the sections that are being hit by this.

Re:Misleading?

[thejynxed]

/r/all and /r/front are being hit by this because /r/4chan mods have tagged everything from their sub that hits the front page with legit spoilers from the movie, so it is no longer confined to just certain subreddits or users via PM.

I don't care about Star Wars spoilers now

[hack slash]

We got our first screenings here in the UK 15 hours ago, of which I attended.

Thoroughly enjoyed it, will probably go back and watch it again but in a better theater with bigger seats and actual legroom, oh and in 3D cos the person I went with doesn't like 3D in cinemas but I do.

John Dies at the End!

[pecosdave]

Was a thought provoking yet twisted movie that my wife utterly hated. So she got revenge on me by making me watch Melancholia.

Spoiler!!!

[MorePower]

Spoiler alert:
In this one, Han shoots third.

Re: Spoiler!!!

[tysonedwards]

Leia says "It's dangerous to go, Han!", as an obvious troll to the audience.

Re:Spoiler alart!

[malditaenvidia]

John K. ruined my childhood.

Re:HAN SOLO DIES!!!!1!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, as a force ghost.

Re:Han Solo Isn't Dead

[shortscruffydave]

He's retired to Tattooine and is running a bar called the Millennium Firkin (Friday night is Jedi night)

Spoiler bullies

[radarskiy]

Worse than any people that post spoilers are the spoiler bullies that try to define anything as a spoiler to manufacture indignation. At least with spoiler posters everyone can agree on the fact that what they are posting are actual spoilers.

I have recently seen spoiler bullies claim that posting the name of a character is a spoiler. I've seen people claim that discussion of what has not yet happened in a series is a spoiler. There is no way to have a rational discussion with people like that.

Perhaps I should call them Spoiler Justice Warriors instead.

Re:HAN SOLO DIES!!!!1!

[LaurenCates]

So? That could be a "Blue Harvest"-type misdirect.

I don't think you understand how that works...

[AC-x]

Moderators of /r/movies subreddit banning users from /r/movies subreddit != "reddit banning users".

Ultimate spoiler

[The-Ixian]

I'll tell you what the real spoiler is: Seeing the movie.... it gives away EVERYTHING!

I guess I understand why people don't want spoilers.. intellectually, anyway.

But seriously, do spoilers *really* ruin a movie? Are you not entertained because someone told you about a piece of the story? I mean, you know that there is going to be wookies and droids and the force... you know what you are getting into.

What about movies that do that whole backwards in time style that show the ending first?.... that is technically a spoiler, right? Yet it doesn't detract from the movie because it is out of context.

I mean, people still watch shows about WW II and we all know how that turned out... but it doesn't seem to make it any less of a good story...

Re:Ultimate spoiler

[The-Ixian]

Yeah, I see your point, I guess.

But even knowing the ending, there is a lot of content between now and then.

I mean, driving to Grandma's house, for example. You know the destination, you have been there many times and know the route well. But the part between you leaving the driveway and the part where you arrive is full of stuff that can be magical every time if you let it.

I guess that is the difference between people who can't stand spoilers and those who don't let it bother them. One group may be more goal oriented and fixated on the destination than the other group.

As Neil Peart once said "The point of a journey is not to arrive"

You'd be hard pressed to find a better philosophy to live by in my opinion.

Re:Ultimate spoiler

[thejynxed]

Well, it isn't just small pieces - these people have been posting the entirety of the major plot points and scenes that could very well ruin the entire experience for someone looking forward to watching it in the theater.

Re:Ultimate spoiler

[The-Ixian]

But how long does one devote to something that they clearly know is a spoiler when they don't want to see spoilers?

To post the entirety of a major plot point suggest more than a one liner doesn't it?

Could it be that the more you know about Star Wars the more are affected negatively by spoilers? What I mean is that someone who knows a LOT about Star Wars, already knows many things about the environment.

For example, they know there is a light side and a dark side, they know there are droids and what they generally look like and are capable of, they know the different races and factions, they know the technology and religion... they know a lot about it.

Therefor, I am suggesting that, perhaps, what is happening is there is so little surprise left that they need to guard the little things like HOW the good guys win in the end and who begot whom. Their ability to "fill in the blanks" is so much greater than a casual fan that even a small spoiler can speak volumes to them.

I am suggesting that the spoiler hating Star Wars fan is effectively "chasing the dragon" that they will never catch because they have ruined the experience for themselves by years of over-saturation.

I am just pulling this out of my ass, I don't actually know, but it really does fascinate me.

Re:Ultimate spoiler

[The-Ixian]

Thanks, you make a good point.

Perhaps spoilers are a little more annoying when it is a completely new work that you have never seen before.

Even still, in my own experience, I can enjoy a work even if I know what is going to happen. I know that there are people (probably a lot of people) who are not like me and I am not saying they are wrong at all to try to preserve the "virgin experience"... In my opinion, however, I think that getting hung up on virginity is the wrong way to live life, but I guess that is the culture we live in. To each their own.

Re: Ultimate spoiler

[The-Ixian]

I think your analogy is a little flawed.

Nothing is being taken away here. You are still able to experience the movie as the film maker laid it out.

Evidence for this is the fact that you probably own movies that you watch repeatedly. You know what is going to happen and yet are able to enjoy it every time you watch it.

I realize that it may not be the same dimension of enjoyment you got the first time, but it could be that you continue to get new insights, revelations and enjoyment every time you watch it through a different day's lens.

Re:Ultimate spoiler

[firewrought]

Do spoilers *really* ruin a movie? Are you not entertained because someone told you about a piece of the story?

Yes... in storytelling, the mystery is part of the journey. Appropriately, you can read some of J.J.'s thoughts about the role of mystery, but I will attempt my own explanation here:

I can see a random collection of wookies, droids, and other space crap anytime I want but that's mere eye-candy: you don't create a coherent package of suspense, relief, grief, joy, etc. that way. Those emotions must be constructed in a particular order. You must get to know a character and their situation before you can care about them; you must care about them before you can feel intense suspense about their fate; you must have feel that they were imperiled before the absence of peril is cause for relief, and so forth. For instance, Rawling could have had Snape kill Dumbledore at the beginning of the series, instead of during book 6, but then you wouldn't have cared about Dumbledore's death (because he's simply a generic Gandalf archetype at that point), and you wouldn't have agonized over Snape's loyalties. The mid-series scenes of Snape being bullied as a student would have given us the satisfaction of preemptive justice, and we wouldn't have been able to share in Harry's introspective discomfort at learning that his father could be a real jerk. Sequence matters.

What about movies that do that whole backwards in time style that show the ending first?.... that is technically a spoiler, right? Yet it doesn't detract from the movie because it is out of context.

It's not a spoiler at all because the story is presented in the order constructed by the storyteller. Again, sequence matters (not necessarily chronological sequence). A good storyteller will use flash-forwards and flashbacks to construct the sequence which best accomplishes their goal as a writer/director. For instance, you could "sort" the scenes in Buffy so that all the flashbacks occur at the beginning of the series, but watching this would feel random, like reading a history book with every other paragraph blacked-out. When Buffy rejects Spike in the Bronze, our empathy for him is heightened because we were introduced to his tender background as a failed poet in the same episode; emotionally this is a double-whammy because we've been cornered into liking the bad guy and (momentarily) disliking the hero. Would we have even remembered the flashback had it been shown ~100 episodes earlier? You could also "sort" Memento so that it's big reveal comes in the center rather than at the end, but this straightforward version wouldn't capture the protagonist's confused, angsty state near as well.

All of that said, the flash-forward is often a crutch for bad writing: I always groan when a movie opens with a flash-forward showing some dramatic moment from the final conflict. That's a clue that the movie's about to dump 30 minutes of slow exposition/character-building in your lap because the screenwriter couldn't figure out how to pull you into the action immediately (other than by cherry-picking a scene from the end).

People still watch shows about WW II and we all know how that turned out.

Granted, but I'd argue that the screenwriters behind movies like The Great Escape and Downfall took this into account when figuring out how to build the story. Also, other WW2 movies (like Memoirs of a Geisha) use non-historical characters who ultimate fate isn't known to the audience in advance.

Re:Ultimate spoiler

[quantaman]

I'll tell you what the real spoiler is: Seeing the movie.... it gives away EVERYTHING!

I guess I understand why people don't want spoilers.. intellectually, anyway.

But seriously, do spoilers *really* ruin a movie?

Yes. Not always a lot, but yes.

Are you not entertained because someone told you about a piece of the story?

No, because I wanted to see that piece of the story in the film for which it was made.

I mean, you know that there is going to be wookies and droids and the force... you know what you are getting into.

And those aren't spoilers. They're facts we already know about the universe. Parts of the movie that would legitimately surprise me, or major events that will now distract me since I know they're coming but don't know when, those are spoilers that can ruin a movie.

What about movies that do that whole backwards in time style that show the ending first?.... that is technically a spoiler, right?

No, because the story is still being told in order, it's just the chronology that's reversed.

Yet it doesn't detract from the movie because it is out of context.

I mean, people still watch shows about WW II and we all know how that turned out... but it doesn't seem to make it any less of a good story...

We know how the war ended up which is why movies aren't about who wins the war. They're about characters whose outcomes we don't know.

Dark City was a great movie, it would have been an awesome movie if the studio didn't wreck it with the opening voice-over. I'm still annoyed I never got to watch it with that mystery.

Fight Club without spoilers is a completely different movie than Fight Club with spoilers, by giving spoilers you'd deny people from seeing that first film.

Even a spoiler that said "star wars is pretty much by the numbers" would be a spoiler since I wouldn't have the suspense of wondering if they're going to keep going by the numbers.

Re:Ultimate spoiler

[tlhIngan]

Well, it isn't just small pieces - these people have been posting the entirety of the major plot points and scenes that could very well ruin the entire experience for someone looking forward to watching it in the theater.

True, but guess what? If you don't want spoilers, you're screwed - get off the internet - don't use Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, or any other social media tool. Because people are going to post spoilers the instant they see it. And guess what? Lots of people have seen it already!

Hell, you might want to avoid the Internet altogether because spoilers are going to be flying around. If you haven't seen it yet, and you don't want to be spoiled, you have to unplug.

That's the reality of it. People are going to post spoilers. The instant anyone sees it, well, the internet will be flooded with them. Applies to TV too - cord cutters have been known to subscribe to cable so they can be among the crowd to discuss a TV show instead of being able to talk about it days later when it's all been spoiled and everyone's moved on.

That's the only way. Even if people aren't trying to spoil it intentionally, you'll run into unintentional spoilers.

Re:Ultimate spoiler

[Cederic]

people still watch shows about WW II and we all know how that turned out

You say this.. Inglorious Bastards definitely didn't follow the historical narrative.

Re:Ultimate spoiler

[PopeRatzo]

As Neil Peart once said "The point of a journey is not to arrive"

If only there was a point to any of his drum solos.

Re:Ultimate spoiler

[phantomfive]

But seriously, do spoilers *really* ruin a movie?

It depends on the movie.....6th Sense was kind of a shock for me, and it wouldn't have been if I had known the ending. Same with A Beautiful Mind.
On the other hand, most movies I can guess the ending before it happens.

The new Star Wars movie will probably be on the predictable side. The "surprises" will probably be something like a double-ended light saber, or similar fan-service. For episode 1,2 and 3 we already knew how the trilogy would end, and I still enjoyed watching them.

Re:Ultimate spoiler

[sootman]

Really? You can't see the difference between "the boat sank" and "Jack died at the end"?

> people still watch shows about WW II and we all
> know how that turned out... but it doesn't seem
> to make it any less of a good story...

Movies are rarely about the war itself. Movies are about little things that happen to individual people DURING the war. Each individual story has a hundred different possible endings.

Anyway, this guy has some other good points. http://entertainment.slashdot.... As do other replies to your comment.

Re:Spoiler alart!

[desdinova 216]

why not both?

Headline is a lie

[cfalcon]

The headline is a lie. There's whole places on that site where the spoilers are EVERYWHERE, deliberately. Certain forums on the site are banning is users who try to push spoilers out to people, such as direct messaging people spoilers, and putting them in the "movies" section of the site (the sections are user defined).

Also I think the ban isn't even site wide.

Basically, if you go to the movies section and post star wars spoilers, you get banned from that section. In fact MANY sections have that rule, because of COURSE the trollchanners are all over trying to spoil the movie.

There are only THREE Star Wars movies

[Morpeth]

They began in 1977 and it was a trilogy, that's it. The rest don't exist. That's my reality and sticking to it!

And Han shot first goddamnit

Re:There are only THREE Star Wars movies

[Locke2005]

Actually, it's a trilogy of trilogies, I believe Lucas announced that back in the 70's. The only characters that were supposed to be in all 9 movies were the robots; I forget which Japanese folk story Lucas was stealing from,

Re:There are only THREE Star Wars movies

[Rolgar]

I think I heard it was Norse mythology?

Re:There are only THREE Star Wars movies

[Wraithlyn]

Han did NOT shoot first. That statement implies someone else fired second.

Han shot. And that's it.

Greedo didn't shoot first, second, or at all. Greedo was unable to return fire due to being DEAD, because Han Solo fucking shot him.

R2D2 Gets Pregnant!

[Tablizer]

Why not just fill it up with fake spoilers instead? Nobody will then know what's real. That way you don't have to delete contributions and look like a mean censor.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

forceblock

[phishybongwaters]

forceblock chrome extension, get it and use it people, this thread is already flagged for spoilers

Re: forceblock

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, you "fans" are pitiful. Really. The leaps and bounds you will go to pray upon the ulter of Star Wars. Really, it isn't that great. The fight scenes in the original Star Wars were horrible. Looked like they were fighting in quicksand. The fact that the dark side lost because some overgrown rats helped infiltrate a base is absurd. Christ sakes people. When I was 10 that was cool. I'm a grown man. It's not even plausible that the Rebels would win, in any universe.

So your telling me, Vader, a man who trained his whole life, couldn't defeat his son Luke who only trained like 1/16 of the time. Luke wasn't even that powerful compared to Vader. Vader could and should have crushed him in the first 2 minutes. Remember Luke just learned the force, Vader studied it his whole fucking life, he was a Jedi prodigy.

And let's not forget that finally at the end,
Vader decides what's right from wrong and kills the Sith Lord. So after years of blindly following him, he decides at the blink of an eye that he was wrong.

Stupid way overhyped movie.

Lol reddit...

[truck_soccer]

Reddit is the Mos Eisley of the internet.

Here is how to avoid the spoilers:

[truck_soccer]

Do not read them. Christ, it's like everyone needs a baby sitter now. "Wah, I clicked a post on reddit, read the entire thing, and then complained that they spoiled the movie for me" - is a really fucking childish way to navigate life. These are the same types of people who actually need the label on their hair dryers or they might actually try to use it in the tub.

Re:spoiler alert

[The-Ixian]

Every generation must learn it all anew... so the fact is, the force was never asleep, but it is new to the younger generation who is just discovering it and therefor it never existed before...

Re:Here's a question...

[war4peace]

I was never bothered by spoilers. One could come and tell me the whole movie over a beer or two, and I would still immensely enjoy it when watching it.

Re:Sounds like

[Austerity Empowers]

Rey is Luke and Leia's daughter, the product of a breeding program designed to produce superior Jedi. Han and Leia are estranged as a result, with Han realizing that women are always unfaithful, but a Wookie's grip is always firm but gentle. It will be revealed in episode 9 that Finn is actually Leia and Lando's son, when she was going through what she describes as "a thing" when Han was frozen in carbonite. Finn develops strong mommy issues, after learning exactly how much of the Star Wars universe are his half brother & sister.

It will later be revealed that C3P0 is Kylo Ren's father (Leia, of course, his mother, who was going through another "thing" back in A New Hope), Finn turns to the off-white side upon learning this and slays himself after Leia gives him bedroom eyes.

Released yesterday in Italy

[pmontra]

The movie has been released yesterday in Italy. You can go to news.google.it and with a little help from Google Translate you can get all the spoilers you want :-)

Re:Released yesterday in Italy

[Locke2005]

I ask somebody who knew 2 weeks ago who Rey and Kylo Ren's parents were, and they told me: "Didn't you know, a preliminary script was leaked a year ago, and somebody posted a plot synopsis!" Apparently the story hasn't changed much since then, so these "spoilers" are old news, some people have known the basic story line for over a year now! And yes, there are already published on the 'net full plot synopsis by people that have already seen the movie. As long as the tell you up front a post contains spoilers, I don't have a problem with it

Spoiler alert!

[Locke2005]

Kylo Ren is the bastard child produced by a drunken one night stand between Luke and Leia!

Re:I Don't Care Who Dies At The End

[Locke2005]

I _know_ who dies at the end, and it makes me very sad, actually. Kylo Ren is apparently the sci-fi equivalent of the Menendez brothers...

Spoler alert!

[Locke2005]

CP30 is gay!

Re:Spoler alert!

[Tablizer]

That's a simple configuration switch. Go into the menus: Edit > Preferences > Personality > Romance

Re:Spoler alert!

[Locke2005]

Or leave the personality setting alone, and simply switch the power adapter from a male to a female connector...

Re:Spoler alert!

[Tablizer]

No wonder us Slashdotters have a reputation for spending too much time alone in the basement lab.

Anyhow, I'm making him solar powered now. No connectors.

Spoiler alert!

[Locke2005]

Dumbledore is gay!

Re:Tomorrow?

[Locke2005]

Technically, after midnight is tomorrow

Hate Speech A-OK...

[TheBilgeRat]

Star Wars spoilers? NO WAY. Ah Reddit - you are the Florida of news aggregation sites.

Re:Sounds like

[Locke2005]

Leia, you little slut! (Yeah, the slave girl costume should have been a tip-off!)

In other words...

[PrimeNumber]

...anyone that isn't a 13 year old Reddit user has nothing to be concerned about.

I will wait until it gets to the dollar houses

[cleara]

Folks; I've had it with the hype. Lets all wait until it gets to the dollar houses. Here in Portland, Oregon, it will most likely arrive at the Laurelhurst Theater sometime in February/March for $4.00 and no 1/2 hour of commercials :)

Re:I will wait until it gets to the dollar houses

[Rolgar]

I'll wait for the disc release, and watch it at home free (library check out). I suppose my portion of the purchase is less than a dollar.

Re:Oh fuck off

[Cederic]

Don't even get me started on how butthurt the Brits were

Butthurt isn't a word in Britain, which kind of demonstrates how much of a cock you are.

Tomorrow?

[skovnymfe]

If the movie officially launches tomorrow, how did I see it at the official launch date yesterday? Am I a time traveller?

Re:Does the person who wrote this even use reddit?

[Cederic]

The mods represent the company. Your mock differentiation is disingenuous.

Jar Jar?

[irrational_design]

If it doesn't feature Jar Jar in his true guise as a Sith Master then I'm not interested.

Re:Jar Jar?

[Locke2005]

Spoiler: It doesn't.

Spoilt

[PopeRatzo]

Darth is Luke's father.

There, I said it.

Re:Han Solo Isn't Dead

[PopeRatzo]

Princess Leia married Han Solo, got divorced and now cooks meth in a trailer on Alderaan. Here's a photo:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pini...

Ridiculous

[SuperDre]

It's just stupid to ban people (permanently), it's not like you have to read the topics..
It's not nice to blab about the movie, but then again, people who already seen the movie should also be able to talk to each other about it online, that's also why we have the internet..

I've seen it yesterday and I think it's a very entertaining and fun Star Wars, already dislike it that episode 8 isn't done by JJ Abrams..

[SPOLIER] Yoda dies!

[BatGnat]

So does Anakin, Obi-wan, the Emperor, ....

We live in a world, not a coutnry

[austinpoet]

Star Wars 7 was released in many European nations on Wednesday...

Re:Han Solo Killed by Kylo Ren

[Locke2005]

Ungrateful little bastard, isn't he?

Pardon me but that's retarded...

[denzacar]

Encountering new narratives is one of narrative's fundamental pleasures. Novelty is so important to narratives that in many cases entire classes of aesthetic effects and domains of hermeneutic structures depend on an audience's relative ignorance about what happens next.

If one's "narrative" depends on secrecy - it's junk.
And if all one has to present to the audience is "won't tell you what happens next" - he/she is a lousy storyteller and a below average writer.
Same goes for film makers and any other kind of creative work.

There has to be more to it than just plot for the story to be worth anything beyond the cost of ink and paper.
And on top of that DELIVERY is everything.
There is a reason why THE Maltese Falcon is the one with Bogart or why THE Scarface is the one with Al Pacino - despite both being remakes.
Or why there are a handful of directors for whose movies one can be certain that they are worth a watch regardless of what the movie is about.
Or why people still pay money to watch ancient Greek plays in a theater, performed by live actors.
I.e. It's not the letters and words, but how you tell the joke.

And unless the one "spoiling" the plot is some kind of genius storyteller who can convey the feel of the story and the scenes in it as vividly as if one is experiencing them from the source (in which case that is a show worth paying for) - then nothing is spoiled.
At least to the audience that actually pays attention to more than just words.

Those who can't be bothered to invest some attention and understanding into their own entertainment... Fuck em.
It's their own fault they don't know how to enjoy the culture beyond the level of a five-year-old.

"Protect the value of those narratives for future generations"... Holy FUCK what a retarded idea.
Here's a clue... That little quip about the spoiler in Oedipus Rex?
Any, ANY sense conveyed in that sentence depends on the fact that EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS THE PLOT OF THAT FUCKIN DRAMA.

I.e. Your example about "protecting narratives" only works because of "spoilers" - NOT DUE TO PROTECTION.
Had those narratives been "protected" you'd sound like you're babbling nonsense.
Instead of just talking nonsense.

Re:Pardon me but that's retarded...

[Triklyn]

an actor is only as good as the words on the page.
yes, repeat watching is valid, yes delivery is important.
but remember, first comes the plot, then comes all the flourishes like humor, drama, wit

A movie with no plot is what? the improv?
a movie with no actors could still be a decent novel.

also,
there is particular joy in the unexpected.
there are things you can only experience the first time.

You are ignorant.

[denzacar]

also,
there is particular joy in the unexpected.
there are things you can only experience the first time.

Only if you don't read much, or watch much, or listen to much...
IF you do... you realize the difference between the unknown, the unexpected and the unexplained in the story.
Then, pretty much nothing is unexpected apart from a non sequitur or two - and those only work if it is a comedy, otherwise they are a mark of a bad writer.

Particularly with movies there is no such thing as unexpected.
A book can have blank covers or no covers at all, with no title or writer known at the time of the reading.
Movies come prepackaged into genres, with posters, trailers, titles, directors, companies, actors...
Rarely will anyone accidentally watch a movie without realizing what kind of a story it is and what to expect of it.

an actor is only as good as the words on the page.

Sure, sure... Which is why there is no difference in a Hamlet portrayed by Laurence Olivier, Mel Gibson, Kenneth Branagh, Christian Bale, Ethan Hawke or Richard Burton.

but remember, first comes the plot, then comes all the flourishes like humor, drama, wit

Try using "most basic" instead of "first" there and see how it works for ya.
Also, a movie with no actors is called a documentary.
And just like a painting or a photo or poem or a book... it still tells a STORY.

As for no plot... Look up Memento and Pulp Fiction to see how much of "unexpected" is nothing but simple breaking up of the plot.
Or get really wild and go for A Night On Earth or Coffee and Cigarettes for movies where plot is practically non existent - instead it's a theme that makes it all work.
And none of those movies' true value is in the "unexpected".

Re:You are ignorant.

[Triklyn]

some directors are subtle enough to pull off "plot twist" and make you feel stupid for not seeing what's in front of your face.

small correction, i should have written "an actor is only ever as good as the words on the page" they are a bounds, the actors may fill it however they can, up to the limitations of the script.
apologies i was ambiguous.

i liked the unexpected aspects of sixth sense, fight club and memento.

i never mentioned "true value"

Re:You are ignorant.

[denzacar]

small correction, i should have written "an actor is only ever as good as the words on the page" they are a bounds, the actors may fill it however they can, up to the limitations of the script.

Sorry, but that's still nonsense.
Look up scenes of Back to the Future with Eric Stoltz for a case of the same script with a different actor.
Look up To Have and Have Not for an example of a script that had to be altered cause there was no denying the chemistry between Bogart and Bacall.
Look up Blade Runner and watch the ending which was invented by Hauer on the spot.
Look up all the myriad versions of Westlake's The Hunter - one with Mel Gibson was made twice.
Or simply go and watch the same play twice.

Actors are living beings and artists. They are not robotic readers and repeaters of lines. They act.

i never mentioned "true value"

So?
I'm saying that those movies are not about the twist or the surprise endings - but about everything up to that point.

Memento is not about the twist of finding out the truth - it is about the need to find a meaning to one's existence and how much of it is just based on preconceptions and expectations.
And if all else fails, writing yourself a script for your life to get you from A to B.

Same with Fight Club.
It's not about men punching each other or pulling pranks and terrorist acts OR about the reveal that tow characters are one and the same person.
It's about all the stuff they talk about, their disdain for the world they feel has left them without a reason or a cause, giving them nothing but consumerism in return.
Except all that talk is just ramblings of a mad man with fascist tendencies. Which is obvious whether the Durden-twist is shown or not.

6th Sense is about a kid who sees ghosts and who learns how to deal with his fears.
Not about Bruce Willis realizing he's been dead all along.

The twist is not the story being told. It's just a cheap plot device to lure in the easy prey.
The fact that if a movie is good it can be seen and enjoyed again and again despite knowing every line in it proves that.

Re:You are ignorant.

[Triklyn]

The twist is not the story being told. It's just a cheap plot device to lure in the easy prey.
The fact that if a movie is good it can be seen and enjoyed again and again despite knowing every line in it proves that.

yes to all this, and above. that does not mean you don't lose something for knowing the twist is coming. i'm not saying it's the most important part, i'm not even saying it's an equal part. I'm saying it's a valuable part of the experience that some people enjoy. And which cannot be found in second third, etc. showings.

true surprise at a clever plot twist only works the first time. you can admire it as much as you want, but it's never going to "delight" like that first viewing.

about actors and scripts.

for every movie you pointed out, where an actor improvised a line nowithstanding, i could probably name a movie the actors been in that is irredeemable shit. Because of a shitty script. If the writing isn't there, the finest actor in the world won't be able to save it. Hell, how many times have you thought "he's doing it for the paycheck" every time you think that it's because the script isn't up to the quality of the acting.

The script just sets the upper bounds on what a movie can be. Like canvas size.

unless you're judd apapapapapatow... and just have your actors do random shit, and somehow stumble the fuck into a plot during editing.