Slashdot Mirror


The Empathy Gap and Why Women Are Treated So Badly In Open Source Projects (perens.com)

Bruce Perens writes: There's no shortage of stories of horrible treatment of women in Open Source projects. But how did we get here? How did we ever get a community where a vocal minority of males behave in the most boorish, misogynistic, objectifying manner toward women? I have a theory: "It’s unfortunately the case that software development in general and Open Source communities are frequented by males who have social development issues. I once complained online about how offended I was by a news story that said many software developers were on the autism spectrum. To my embarrassment, there were many replies to my complaint by people who wrote 'no, I really am on the spectrum and I’m not alone here.'

It’s still an open issue whether males and females have built-in biases that, for example, lead fewer women to be programmers, or if such biases only develop as a response to social signals. There is more science to be done. But it’s difficult to do that sort of science because we can’t separate the individuals from the social signals they’ve grown up with. Certainly we can improve the situation for the women who would be programmers except for the social signals."

86 of 786 comments (clear)

  1. Summary insufficient, click through the link. by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 3, Informative

    The summarry makes it look like I'm blaming folks with Asperger's, which is not the case. It's a social development issue but not attributed to the people with pathology.

    Click through the link to get the whole story.

    1. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "It’s unfortunately the case that software development in general and Open Source communities are frequented by males who have social development issues"

      What about the women who have "social development issues" that draw them to the field, or do they get off with a wink and a nod?

      I love ya, Bruce, but this is bullshit.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    2. Re: Summary insufficient, click through the link. by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oh come on. I would like to understand how we have brought up some folks like, to take the worst example, weev. Obviously I don't know a thing about his upbringing, but I know about the general situation, and I suggest a solution, although it would take a generation to implement.

      Just what are you doing? Denying there's a problem?

    3. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 3, Insightful

      WTF is "We should try to be nice to people" such a controversial position?

      Because when you state it in a way that implies all men in open source projects are not being to nice to women, it's grossly offensive.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    4. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 3, Informative

      Nobody says all. I write, at the link, a "vocal minority". But I would like to know how we got folks like the ones who abused the late Telsa Gwynne. A person I met long ago and really liked, and wife to Alan Cox. Not anyone unreasonable. Still driven out of the community.

    5. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're still blaming men with unspecified "social development issues", which is politically correct for now.

      In five years time, when "social development issues" become a protected class, I'm going to remind Slashdot and your employer that you posted this.

      Cheers,
      Anonymous SJW

    6. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by beelsebob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Mostly because of the generally non-nice, aggressive, "it's all your fault" way that it was put. The social issue on display here is the article's author generalising a large group of people, and collectively calling them socially underdeveloped. It's unsurprising that that gets a negative response, in much the same way as generalising all women, and calling them crap at technology gets an unsurprisingly negative response.

    7. Re: Summary insufficient, click through the link. by Threni · · Score: 2

      Doesn't it depend on the project? I've hung around the neovim project and from just the gitter/irc forum and the commits I don't get the impression folk there would either know nor care what gender (or race, or if you are disabled etc) you are. Is it hard to find projects like this? What percentage of OS projects do have this problem? Can they be identified easily?

      Knowing how/why some people have been brought up a certain way might be interesting to some people but I don't think that that group intersects with the group of people who are interested in writing, using or reading about open source software. From my experience in the industry, the best developers are self taught and self motivated and won't let other people's opinions or attitude problems get in the way. They just get on and code. It's unpaid work, done for fun. Some people quit projects because of disagreements with management style or direction but I'm not sure there's much mileage in outside forces trying to change anything; it just is what it is.

    8. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by LaurenCates · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Why does this have to be a "male" problem versus an "asshole" problem?

      If you say there are unpleasant women to work with, doesn't that kind of transcend gender?

      --
      Some people don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in The Patriarchy.
    9. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by argStyopa · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm genuinely curious why women's standards of behavior and empathy are the norm to which we ascribe? Why do they get to set the standard definition?

      Perhaps male behaviors with a lack of empathy, etc are the norms to which women need to conform?

      --
      -Styopa
    10. Re: Summary insufficient, click through the link. by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 2

      Link just died unfortunately (404).

      Really? I'm paying Cloudflare real money for that. Is it still gone?

      Regarding the rest of your argument, I think we all end up in a socially unhealthy environment if women have to start segregated women's projects as you suggest or if we don't get them into our communities. It's bad for men too if that continues to happen. Nor is the problem minor, I would post a link to some of the more repulsive stuff but I don't want to promote it. You don't have to be at all precious to be grossed out by it.

    11. Re: Summary insufficient, click through the link. by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bruce, please do what you can to get the word out that every instance of assholery needs to stop. It doesn't matter what the gender of the victim is - males should be no more "expected" to take abuse than females. If we stop the abuse, we stop the abuse. I agree, it starts with good parenting, but we can also apply social pressures to adults. Our movement is about means as much as, if not more so than, than ends, and this is a black eye on it. Maybe women as a group tend to be smarter about not abiding such behavior.

      Most people don't like to hear that every instance of assholery needs to be countered because it requires *them* to act at every opportunity to counter injustice. This can't be delegated to a committee and if learning to behave is as required as learning to code in our community then it doesn't matter what personality types are at a disadvantage, except that they may need extra help. Other community members need to be as willing to help a newbie behave as they are to help him submit good patches. Is that comfortable in our society? No, but we're doing the evolution thing here - nobody said it was going to be easy.

      And one good patch from an asshole isn't worth the loss of several more community members. If we had to make that trade, I'd take one fewer patch, on principle, but we don't have to - a vibrant community is non-zero sum.

      My favorite open source communities are joyous playgrounds and rich in female contributors. I'm hesitant to post them here because /. has its share of miscreants, but get in touch if you want some follow-up. Thanks for keeping this problem at the fore.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    12. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by Elledan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As a woman & part of a minority who has been in and around open source projects, video games and what not for most of her life, I am frankly flabbergasted at articles and wild accusations like these.

      The supposition is that there is a problem 'we women' suffer at the hands of males. The reality is that there are trolls and bullies who just pick on the weak. What I have also found is that said trolls and bullies are generally rapidly expunged from tech & gaming circles as they are unpleasant to deal with.

      I have always found both the video gaming and open source/tech communities to be the most pleasant and welcoming of all. Am I doing something wrong here? Am I internalising misogyny, or some such nonsense?

      Please, stop making up non-existing problems. We got enough real problems as-is already, including radicalised feminists and the media harassing us female gamers and geeks for not adhering to outdated and/or ridiculous stereotypes. Now there's a target to focus on for some real research on an actual problem. I won't stop you.

      --
      Site & blog: http://www.mayaposch.com
    13. Re: Summary insufficient, click through the link. by kheldan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My moods are as variable as any of the other human animals on this planet, and I'm not denying that we're making progress, but part of the problem is that, as always, the evolution of our technology outpaces our own evolution by at least an order of magnitude. We have myriad ways to not only exterminate our own species, but also myriad ways to ensure that Earth is uninhabitable for thousands of years, if not permanently. Meanwhile, a minority of the more forward-thinking pat themselves on the back for all the 'progress' we've made as a species, while on the other side of the planet there are assholes running around cutting off people's heads and literally blowing things up in an effort to turn the clock back by at least a thousand years. Or, is what you mean by 'exasperated with political debate' more localized? I can work with that, too. Both of the majority political parties in this country (the U.S., in case you're elsewhere) are utterly clueless, but this time around, the Major Offender is this Trump caveman, who, if he managed to get elected, would at the very least drag the U.S. back into the 19th Century socio-political-wise, if not out-and-out instigate World War III, and possibly destroy civilization. Assuming that is that there were enough clear-headed personnel in positions of power in our military to say "Hell, no!" and stage a coup. Discounting Trump entirely (with many thanks!), even the Democrats are pretty clueless, and while they won't get us into some world-ending conflict, they're going to wreck us in other, softer ways. In the end I'll have to get myself on some watch-list by voting for a 3rd-party candidate, just to make a statement of my utter disdain for everyone they're trotting out to us, and I'm not thrilled with the idea. Exasperated with politics? Yeah I guess you could say that -- but not as exasperated as I am with stupid humans in general. It's not a Good Thing when I regularly have to think to myself, "Hopefully it all won't go completely to Hell before I'm dead".

      So how's your day going? XD XD XD

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    14. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by DRJlaw · · Score: 2

      How did we ever get a community where a vocal minority of males behave in the most boorish, misogynistic, objectifying manner toward women? I have a theory: "It's unfortunately the case that software development in general and Open Source communities are frequented by males who have social development issues>..."

      Because when you state it in a way that implies all men in open source projects are not being to nice to women, it's grossly offensive.

      I deny your premise. When it's read by people with unbelievably poor reading comprehension, or who are are spoiling to be offended no matter how it is stated, it's grossly offensive. When read by people with a competent grasp of English, it does not imply that, and it's not offensive.

      Unfortunately for you, I am a vocal minority of males who frequents Slashdot... and I calling you out for being in one or both of these categories demonstrates my social development issues. By your process I must be "all men," and ipso facto you have no choice but to agree.

      I predict that you'll think that that's offensive. I also predict that I will not care.

    15. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by kheldan · · Score: 2

      While I personally applaud you for drawing attention to one of the Elephants In The Room, be aware you're also painting a target on your back for the militant feminist types, because you're {strike}daring to speak the truth{/strike} not being supportive of your Sisters. ;-)

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    16. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by orledrat · · Score: 2

      Research? You must be joking. This is an emotional matter, have you no respect for feelings?

    17. Re: Summary insufficient, click through the link. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just what are you doing? Denying there's a problem?

      Yes. I deny there is a problem. People often treat each other badly, but I have seen NO evidence that this is a specific problem in FOSS projects, or in tech in general. My personal experience has been the exact opposite. Over the years, I have managed many techs, and I have also managed many non-techs. If you think that engineers are misogynists, you should meet some salesmen. I have dealt with sexual harassment complaints about the sales dept, the shipping crew, but never once about an engineer. My experience has been that techs behave at least as well as any other group of people, and better than most. Can we do better? Sure, but so can any other group of humans, including left handed methodists, but no one singles them out for criticism.

    18. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 2

      There are no ads on my blog. This issue is sufficiently far from my business that it does me no good. It's just something I care about.

    19. Re: Summary insufficient, click through the link. by russotto · · Score: 2

      Weev's a dick, if I may use that term. But he's not the general case, any more than his ex-girlfriend Shanley is representative of women in tech. There's a group of people, or several, intent on pushing a narrative of "those horrible misogynistic nerds are driving women out of Open Source" (or substitute for Open Source: "tech" or "gaming" or "comics" or a bunch of other things).

      Sometimes we're supposedly horrible in the classic hit-on-anything-with-a-skirt way. Sometimes it's "women wouldn't pay attention to you smelly nerds in high school and now you mistreat them in revenge." Sometimes it's "Your geeky antics offend normal women; grow up and put away your toys you babies"; there's one researcher who has made her career promoting badly designed studies about how geeky items like Star Wars posters drive away women. And sometimes it's "You horrible nerds are so socially maladjusted that you drive women away by accident".

      Problem is, it's all BS. There isn't any attempt to drive women out of any of those things; once you accept that there is, you've accepted a false premise and are likely to come to false conclusions. Misogynists in tech? Sure; it's not like techies are exempt from human failings. More than in, say, finance or advertising or medicine? I doubt it. Looking for special reasons techies are especially bad is putting the cart before the horse; first you must show that techies are especially bad.

    20. Re: Summary insufficient, click through the link. by cfalcon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Your suggested solution involves changing education. This is a favorite tuning knob of many would-be social engineers: diagnose a problem without a study (or with a study made to find exactly that problem, run by people with a vested interest in finding that thing). Specifically, you imply that there's something that schools can do with groups of friends, trying to define the self organizing social groups. This will require a level of policing that is absolutely ludicrous and impractical, and likely very harmful if schoolchildren are denied the ability to choose their friends. School is a tyrannical experience for many, and this plan of yours will just create even more loners, and make them more alone.

      It's also amazing to see how thoroughly socially awkward people are chased down and vilified. Finding one of the few places that socially awkward or autism spectrum people are able to spend their time helping society (in some cases for free, and in most cases for less compensation than they WOULD get, outside of it) and trying to find the correct combinations of matches to set their house on fire, all sacrifices for whatever Diversity-God is currently venerated in social engineering circles.

      As the pressure increases, they'll eventually figure out what's going on. Within 10 years, I fear you'll be seeing forks of projects along political lines.

      That will be the end result of diagnosing a problem where none exists, prescribing solutions where the term is meaningless, and ultimately vilifying and excluding contributors who don't toe the politically correct line. More divisiveness for no gain.

    21. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Asshollery has a strong positive correlation to the Y chromosome and testosterone.

      Sorry, as someone who knows/has known literally thousands of women in my lifetime, I call "bullshit".

      You're actually claiming that the presence of a Y chromosome is a predictor for "assholishness"?

      I doubt you could even define "assholishness" (or "asshollery" or whatever) to any degree of accuracy. One person's "assholishness" is another person's perfectly acceptable behavior, so that's a fail. It's like defining pornography, which ends up coming down to some subjective value judgement.

      So, in short, you're wrong, and you should stop spreading this nonsense- it just makes you out to be an asshole.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    22. Re: Summary insufficient, click through the link. by russotto · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Mention Eric S. Raymond on Slashdot and watch the hate mob of social justice screech about it as if he was eating babies.

      It didn't take too long after he passed on a (perhaps paranoid, but perhaps not) warning about some people trying to entrap high-profile Open Source people into sexual harassment complaints at conferences before a few women posted some vague accusations of Raymond "creeping" on them at conferences. Including some he wasn't at.

    23. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by scamper_22 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I understand your intention, but I would urge you to change your mindset to focus less on stereotypes and more on behavior.
      I often find this kind of study/summary to be of the greatest irony.

      Person complains men are insensitive or make assumptions about women, which is a great irony because that just making an insensitive assumptions about men.

      Let me try another example.
      You are trying to point out problems within a group. Yet, you have chosen the word 'male' to represent this group.

      Suppose we wish to talk about problems in urban Detroit (gangs, single motherhood...)

      Would you state the problem in any way as:
      Black people are prone to violence and broken families?

      No, because that would be so insensitive. You'd probably call that person a bigot.

      You'd have to make it more specific. People in poverty, certain urban centers, certain historical background...

      I was born in Apartheid South Africa. I know a little more about racial grouping. I also see the reverse now where the groupings and power plays have shifted. It's always tempting, but if you want to be better than a bigot, you have to check yourself and not fall into 'my tribe' thinking.

      Now this is always a tricky area as how do you talk about systemic problems without 'grouping' people.

      Well as I say, take two minutes and make sure you've tried your best to narrow your group as much as possible. You might not get it perfect, but at least you made the effort and can offend fewer people AND be more accurate.

      It's almost pointless to talk about 'black' people as that is such a large group. Neil Degrass Tyson is black. Condoleeza Rice is black. One of the best IOS programmers I know is black. These people bare no resemblance to the image people have when they talk about 'black problems' perpetuated by both bigots and SJW. There are upscale blacks. There are ghetto blacks and every other subgrouping in between.

      It's just as pointless to talk about 'white' people. There are rich white folk and downright poor ghetto white folks. You can for example talk about 'white privilege' but you better be careful about it. Tell some poor white kid from a broken home that he has 'white privilege'. Do you have any idea how harmful that is to that person?

      Now ponder your choice of groups. You chose to group humans into two of the biggest groups possible. Male and Female.

      And you make grand stereotypes about both, lumping in everyone. You insult anyone who identifies with either being male or female. You insult the female who prefers direct talk or believes she should fight the fight. You insult the male who prefers social grace.

      Did it ever occur to you that many men get turned off by poor social behavior?

      Perhaps the issue is less that of men vs women, but of people who lack social grace.

      I would also imagine with all the tools available in the open source world, it might be interesting to find out why other open source cultures haven't developed. Or maybe they have? I haven't studied it. I'm generally just a deep user, as opposed to an active contributor, but I generally find people quite helpful. There are some assholes, but I've also had some very good conversations and help from a lot of people. Every open source project is started by someone.

      Basically, take two minutes.
      Check your groupings.
      Even if you go in depth with nuance in the research, check your summary. Just do the black test. Change the 'bad' group to 'black' and see how it reads.

      How does this read to you Bruce:
      How did we ever get a community where a vocal minority of males behave in the most boorish, misogynistic, objectifying manner toward women?

      How did we ever get a community where a vocal minority of blacks behave in the most boorish, misogynistic, objectifying manner toward women?

      Even masked with the words minority, it still stings doesn't it? No matter how your phrase it, it stings a little doesn't it.

      So for someone complaining about insensitive men ... you might want to check yourself.

    24. Re: Summary insufficient, click through the link. by chipschap · · Score: 2

      Yes, women are intelligent, powerful, and capable, but here's a point that I've tried to make before.

      While it's true that when some men treat women badly, women are capable of standing up for themselves and don't need men to do it for them, men still need to object, because the bad actions of other men unfortunately reflect poorly on all men.

      No, it shouldn't be that way--- lumping men together--- but still, many people do that (and they in turn need to stop).

      Women don't need men to defend them. But men need to stand up for what's right anyway.

    25. Re: Summary insufficient, click through the link. by Oligonicella · · Score: 2

      Pomposity however, runs ahead at full steam.

    26. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by elrous0 · · Score: 2

      I know they are there. I have had some startlingly unpleasant interactions with a handful of them. I don't know enough about them yet. Probably someone else should handle that side of the problem.

      Well I'll tell you what, Bruce. Just as soon as "someone else" gets to work on fixing women's attitude problems and female dominated professions, I'll get right to work on fixing men's attitude problems and male dominated professions. Or is it that your version of "equality" is that only men have problems, only male-dominated fields need fixing, and that only men should bear the responsibility of fixing them?

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    27. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Asshollery has a strong positive correlation to the Y chromosome and testosterone.

      It's statements like this that make me wish there were a much stronger word in the English language than "bullshit."

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    28. Re: Summary insufficient, click through the link. by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      Social justice at it's finest.

      Social Justice is now cloudflare not delivering services they're being paid for?

      What the fuck? Are you on drugs or do you define "SJW" as simply everything you don't like today?

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    29. Re: Summary insufficient, click through the link. by martin-boundary · · Score: 2

      I don't think that calling projects started by women "segregated" is helpful. You are looking at the state of open source through racial conflict tinted glasses. This is not the same problem as black/white integration at all. What is open source about? It's about scratching your own itch. If some mainstream windows like system doesn't work for you, you don't complain and you don't propose to force windows to do things your way. No, you fork a project and do your own thing. If other people like where you are going with this, they'll join and the project grows. If not, there's no harm in having a project of one. Either way, nobody is being forced to do anything, people CHOOSE freely to do what works for them at the time. THAT is the open source way, and that is what is being suggested to you IMHO. If someone wants to fork an open source project with the special feature that cussing and disrespecting women members is not acceptable, they should do exactly that. Fork and run with the idea. Make the rules clear on the mailing list and enforce them. THAT is the open source way. And people will come, and people will choose, and the new projects will grow and take over mindshare, like Linux and GNU grew, and took over mind share, and 30 years later we have a thriving ecosystem. Linux didn't grow fully formed overnight. Neither will your kinder, gentler open source community. So relax, don't tell the community what it should do, don't be impatient. Start by forking an interesting project, experiment with social rules, and see if the idea works out. If you truly have a good idea, people will come and help out. If not, keep going.

    30. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by Teriblows · · Score: 2

      Currently its clear women in tech suffer from the people who claim to represent them. Its notable that the "voices" in tech are some of the least talented or credentialed around. The Zoe Quinn's, the Randi Harpers(freebsdgirl), the Brianna Wu's, the people who catch the eye of gender study graduates to fit their agenda, these women who much of the time lack any real experience in coding are held up as "women in tech". Quinn's example is just galling, she used an open source tool twine to write a choose your own adventure text game, a tool who's selling point is that no coding knowledge is required to use it. But through this, she not only became a "game dev" in the "industry", but also a "women in tech" who now spoke for all women in tech. Same goes with the other two. This complete lack of standards, this completely perverse form of excessive misguided empathy for women is what creates the problems for women in tech or stem, much of them imagined. The issue of empathy is really perverse in that its clear from feminism that women really aren't the more empathetic gender. They are the gender subject to benevolent sexism which is based on excessive empathy by society for the welfare of women. It is something which functioned in more traditional societies for most of human history where gender roles were more in line with this concession against reason, but in the modern world, its become maladaptive. Its allowed toxic femininity, female chauvinism to infect professions and communities like tech with toxic gender politics. These women need to take a look at the life story of Grace Hopper, who's achievements should not exist if the world really was as they painted. A stem phd who ended up doing so well that a modern advanced navy destroyer is named after her, and by republicans no less. All this happened so many decades ago, and now we hold up women who insult Hopper's name as examples of women in tech, its actually quite disgusting. This is all allowed because the people who claim to support women actually think less of them, that is the ugly truth at the heart of the matter.

    31. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Asshollery has a strong positive correlation to the Y chromosome and testosterone.

      Sorry, as someone who knows/has known literally thousands of women in my lifetime, I call "bullshit".

      Beat me to it.

      A male tends to be more aggressive by virtue of the extra testosterone we carry around, but that in no way is a marker for being a jerk. Women do just as well in the jerk department as do males.

      This matter ain't a-goin nowhere until we realize this is a people issue.

      Having friends and co-workers who are successful people who happen to be female, I've gotten few of the now pervasive "Men are fucking assholes" from any of them.

      In fact, while they have met men who are assholes, to a woman they declare the man an asshole - not men .

      What is universal among their experience is that a lot of the resistance and discouragement they get is from other women. Which sadly enough has caused several of them to associate almost totally with male cohorts, in large part because they got tired of the "Who did she lay to get that job?" comments from other women.

      And heaven help the poor woman if she is also attractive!. Two of these women (disclaimer - one is my wife) are pretty attractive, and there are plenty of women who simply hate you for that. My wife, who is also tall and slender, has had women come up to her in the street tellng her they hate her for her looks, and the other woman, a fine engineer, is also a fitness buff and remarkably beautiful as well - has taken so much guff from the other women at work that she's one of the ones I noted, avoid other women now. And why not? The men at work treated her as an equal even if they appreciated her beauty at the same time. And woe onto anyone who disrespects her.

      All of which led me to conclude that there are men who are jerks. All of this led me to conclude that there are women who are jerks as well.

      But here we are, in this dysfunctional state where there is no fault but men's fault, where whatever any woman says is the unaasailble truth.

      But here's the thing. There is a definite gender ratio difference in male/female in IT. Does this mean that all men or all men in IT are jerks? If so, in the field of veterinary medicine, which is almost exclusivley female now, does it then follow that all women or all women in veterinary field are jerks? Does it mean that there is some aspect of gender that attracts mostly males to IT? Some aspect of gender that attracts overwhemingly females to veterinary medicine?

      Thes questions make some folks very uncomfortable. And anyone who tries to tapdance some bullshit that female veternarians are saints and men all dropped out of the field because they are assholes is displaying grade A assholeism themselves.

      Do we want to actually solve the problem if there is one? Blaming all problems on men is like a person looking for their lost keys under a streetlamp where the light is good, rather than in an unlit area, where they knew they actually lost them.

      If we want to fix this problem - if it is a problem based on discrimination or maltreatment, it must be acknowledged that it is not simply a male problem.

      Because to ignore that simply won't fix the issue - it just won't.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    32. Re: Summary insufficient, click through the link. by epyT-R · · Score: 2

      Stating that a person is incompetent and backing it with evidence is not a personal attack.

    33. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by Razed+By+TV · · Score: 2

      I'm missing what makes this comment insightful.

      Bruce's argument is that the so men with social development issues can't empathize with women, and that the men can empathize with other men enough to get along. Presumably, the women with social development issues can empathize with the women, and aren't part of the issue of integrating non-issue women into software development. So I would say that for the time being, the women with issues probably get a wink and a nod, as they aren't as big a part of the broader issue of integrating women in general.

      Women with social development issues may integrate poorly. However, there may be considerably fewer of them. ASD is 4-5 times more likely in men than in women. So while you can point at some women and suggest they are part of the issue, I don't think it really holds weight in the bigger picture. You would need a disproportionate amount of women to have similar amounts of men and women with ASD.

      Bruce only used ASD as an example of the spread of social development issues. If these issues primarily affect men, it doesn't make sense to look at women with similar issues as part of the primary problem.

    34. Re: Summary insufficient, click through the link. by dbIII · · Score: 2

      'SJW's always lie'

      Which is always going to be true if a word is made up and then used as a definition for a extreme strawman that among other things lies.
      Can we please get back on topic instead of from a book by political hack that stacked the Hugos to push some weird male supremicist shit just for the sake of it?

      The topic as I see it is just an example of straight out bullying - pretty hard to excuse that even if you consider yourself superior by birth.

    35. Re: Summary insufficient, click through the link. by dbIII · · Score: 2

      or do you define "SJW" as simply everything you don't like today?

      That insult has pretty well always been that as used on this site. It often makes a fine idiot detector or anger detector.

    36. Re: Summary insufficient, click through the link. by Jane_Dozey · · Score: 2

      But this should really be the last straw. If you've been polite and respectful in your previous rejections, and ultimately asked the person to stop contributing in a firm but kind way, then it's on their head if they refuse to accept the rejection and get a much tougher response.

      Yes, I agree it's not a personal attack, but being too aggressive too soon will make it look like it is.

      --
      Silly rabbit
    37. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Most of this was sent to me by a 3rd party with a sharper gaze than I....if I didn't know better, I'd think Bruce's account had been hacked and is now being used by a clever troll. Sadly, that does not seem to be the case.

      Here are a few things Bruce has said that people might find interesting:

      Bruce Perens: I'll tell you another secret then. Open Source was a mistake. I am not a Freetard any longer.

      I know that there's a good chance that some folks will not believe this was a quote from him, but it was. Others might suggest that it is taken out of context, but it isn't, and I'll cite it here:

      This is the relevant link. (http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=8501517&cid=51150923)

      And then there's this:

      Bruce Perens: Yes, I would take your gun. I hope to do so someday.

      And, again, a citation for those who would insist on evidence. (http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=8501517&cid=51147449)

      Note: None of that is edited, taken out of context, or reworded. It's all easily verified by simply clicking the provided links and looking at what he's written. There are multiple comments that may be of interest.

      Bruce, basically, has used the FOSS community as a springboard and now has decided to abandon them, claim he doesn't believe in them, and now uses the term as a derogatory phrase - "freetard" a pejorative.

      In other words, he's basically pulled a great troll and is now in the process of abusing the people that he used to get the small measure of fame that he does have.

      I've admired Bruce's commentary in the past, but it's hard for me to reconcile any of this recent stuff with the person I thought I knew.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    38. Re:Summary insufficient, click through the link. by scamper_22 · · Score: 2

      A few things.

      1. Bruce is complaining about men not being sensitive in their open source groups. We're not talking apartheid or segregation here. Bruce's complaint is political correctness, so it is incumbent that such a person be politically correct to all.

      2. We must insist on political correctness for all. Not just as a matter of speech, but as a mindset. When people buy into a narrative, they don't see any other voices. You can see that completely in Bruce's summary and post. He just buys the narrative that men are insensitive clogs and women are being excluded. Even his solution of teaching boys at a young age on how to be friends with women.

      Political correctness for all its flaws (trust me, I'm a very direct person) does force you to think about the other person involved. That in my view is a good thing.

      It does however still blind people who just buy into a narrative.

      For example, nowhere does Bruce suggest anything that women need to do to be friends with men. Isn't that interesting? Women don't need to learn things that make them good friends for men. Things like being able to joke around, rough play, loyalty...
      Nope, the whole thing is about men learning to be friends with women.

      That's a pretty offensive position.

      I'll operate on either level. I'm inherently a very direct, handle yourself person. But if we're going to engage in this political correct talk, then we should be careful for all involved. Words definitely give insight in how you feel and act towards people.

  2. Ye gods by qbast · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This crap again?

    1. Re:Ye gods by JoeMerchant · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Repeat it often enough and people will start to remember it as fact.

    2. Re:Ye gods by qbast · · Score: 2

      Well, it is rare occasion when author actually has balls to come here and argue his case.

  3. how did we get where? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Gender has no role in online interactions unless you make it.

    We're all pixels. we have no race. no nationality. no gender. no sexuality.

    I'm not sure what online community you're taking part in, that this is happening in but i suggest you leave it =)

  4. It is? by jader3rd · · Score: 2

    It’s still an open issue whether males and females have built-in biases that, for example, lead fewer women to be programmers,

    I disagree that it's still open. We all know that the built in biases are there. Where do you think the "social stigma" would have come from?

    1. Re:It is? by grumbel · · Score: 2

      This graph seems to indicate that the problem of lack of women in computer science correlated pretty directly with the rise of the home computer and video games in the mid 80's.

  5. Stop Hazing Us by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Stop Editors. Stop Slashdot. Stop Dice. Stop Bruce Perens. Stop This.

    Stop hazing the tech sector. Stop making us out to be hostile to women, or racists, or all white male misogynerds. We're just regular people, regular geeks. Yes we like to play D&D, and pretend we're dwarves, or warlocks, or elf-maids, but that does not make us supporters of rape culture. Yes we like to write computer programs and make geeky websites about science stuff or cat videos. But that does not makes us anti-immigrant bigots. Yes we disagree with you and politely explain our reasons why, but that does not make us harassing MRA online stalkers.

    The lies and hazing have to stop. The tech sector does not have a problem with women. The media has a problem with the tech sector.

    1. Re:Stop Hazing Us by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 2

      I could barely get tech interviews and my qualifications and experience were oft questioned (I had a good internship and grades and projects and such).This didn't happen to the guys I graduated with. It's something I've heard MANY times from MANY women. It's a slow pushing out of women in technology by men in technology because it's frankly just not worth the bullshit.

      May I ask how many of those interviewing managers questioning your qualifications were non-technical? From what I've seen, that's the source of the problem. Non-technical managers who hate hiring developers of any kind because they're a "cost center" have no ability at all to judge the worth of any developer, because they don't understand what a developer does, or how a developer does what a developer does, so they latch on to the one visible thing they can understand: you're a girl. And monkey boy doing the hiring doesn't see many girls, so obviously there must be something odd about you, so obviously you have to be questioned much more closely about your qualifications.

      I submit that actual technical people wouldn't treat you this way. They certainly don't in my workplace.

    2. Re:Stop Hazing Us by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Learn. To. Read.

      He said "a vocal minority", never implying it was all men or you in particular.

      Stop being an SJW and taking offence at everything, and then trying to shut down the debate for those interested in having it.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  6. Careful with distinctions here... by Improv · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There are some people who really are awful to women, and they're often (but not always) really awful to work with in other ways too. Finding ways to get them to either improve or get out is tricky because they exist in the same career ladders as people who want a decent place to work.

    Then there's a subset of people opposing them who insist on overly narrow notions of how people should be allowed to act, talk, and think. They take it on themselves to police speech and behaviour far more than is reasonable or necessary. In their effort to deal with a legitimate problem, they become another kind of problem.

    Making all this less clear is that the boundaries between these are unclear and they tend (but don't always) to line up with political views, and political witchhunts in the workplace (or broader society) are dangerous and ill-advised.

    It's messy enough that it'd be tempting to just step back from the whole thing, but the stakes are too high for that. We neither should want to waste the potential of half our population (or other subsets of the population) nor should we create a work environment or society where most kinds of differing views on gender or jokes are curtailed. So navigating this is damned tough.

    --
    For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
    1. Re:Careful with distinctions here... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      1: When Linus Torvalds goes off on a rant and rips people a new one, he's, statistically speaking here, always right. Strong leadership has to shoot stupid dead, this is how he does it; in business you demote, take away responsibility, or fire. Because stupid doesn't back down, and it doesn't stop being stupid unless you get really ticked off and point it out. This is how the real world works. Last time I heard him rant he was going off about code that could've made worse than failure because of kinder-garden simple mistakes.

      2: Men lead by one man taking charge, the others deciding to follow him so long as it makes sense for them and the group; if there are challenges to power, the group names the terms, and the men duke it out. Women lead by consensus; if a decision needs to be made politics get involved. Even when both sexes come to the same conclusions, men organize faster and get more done. Given, the male decision making process is more prone to going over a cliff by several magnitudes (hence the ranting), by the same token the female decision making process is prone to waiting until the opportunity is gone and making only risk-less decisions which can be equally disastrous. Nature configured men to be genetic and social experiments and women to be the bastion of stable genetic code, this is the way it is.

      3: Feminism is, by definition, about giving women rights and privileges without giving them duties and responsibilities. If we were really equal as a society, women would be part of the draft, divorce courts would rule in favor of men vs women 50/50 instead of 99.9/.1 and men would be eligible for alimony and child support, and there would be more male teachers, nurses, and social workers which are positions I will remind you that make 80th percentile wages and up.

      In Closing.

      Go check out the US Census data for men over 45 never married and men over 45 no children. GAO has done reports on this. Up until 1990 the rate was 5%. After that it started to grow until it reached a point at around 2006-2007 where it hit 10%. That additional 5% were men in the 90th percentile income bracket, arguably the hardest working one. Since then the rate has been ticking up between half a percent to a percent per year. What this means is if you are 18-25 right now and male, you have a 1 in 3 chance of starting a family. If you are a newborn male, you have a 1 in 2.

      This is what SJW's have done to society. And it's the reason the Democrats and Republicans are bringing in as many foreigners as they can; there's an active demographics collapse. The tin foil hat crowd yelling about a conspiracy to replace white people with Hispanics and blacks that know nothing about the constitution, this sounds really viable right now which is some of the reason for record gun sales for the last half decade.

      Problem is here, you are radicalizing a group of men who have nothing better to do than elect people like Trump. And if he doesn't win this election, you either have a civil war on your hands or a REAL madman WILL Get elected next time around. Fact is, Hispanics and Blacks like white males because they've been treated well and fairly over the last 50 years; it's the upper crust of society everyone hates.

      Slashdot is a feminist leaning publication, the nerds have spoken, you are losing readership. They are going elsewhere; techdirt, theregister, heck even infoweek.

    2. Re:Careful with distinctions here... by Cederic · · Score: 2

      Interesting. You call it a troll post, I find little in there to challenge.

      In my experience, sexist people just don't know how to communicate with women, and feel threatened. Grow up, and be a man!

      You sexist piece of shit, stop telling men how to be a man.

      I don't know how to communicate with women. That's because I have Aspergers; I can't communicate with fucking anybody. Women complain about sexual objectification; I objectify everybody and everything and there's nothing sexual about it.

      Threatened? I'm feeling very threatened by people telling me that all of my success is because I'm sexist, misogynistic, benefiting from some sort of invisible privilege or otherwise have advantages. Fuck them and fuck you, I've had to work hard for my success and fight against people that get this social interaction shit every fucking step of the way.

    3. Re:Careful with distinctions here... by Cederic · · Score: 2

      Curious. You seem to think I'm trying to be rude.

      I'm merely failing to observe the local etiquette, often because I just don't have a fucking clue what it is. I'm failing to respond to body language, because it's a total mystery to me. I'm being honest, because that's respectful.

      Tell me, where in all of that am I being sexist? Where am I being an arsehole? Where exactly am I intentionally upsetting people?

      How the fuck am I meant to be in the wrong here, when other people are judging me by their rules, including the ones my disability makes it impossible for me to even fucking know exist?

      Now do you understand? Being polite is something I was taught as a child. Guess what: I hold doors open for people. A woman accused me of sexism because I held a door open for her.

      Project yourself into that fucking situation and tell me just what the fuck the answer is, because confusion, stress and anger were all things I immediately had to suppress.

  7. Waaah, I'm offended by Stormwatch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what." -- Stephen Fry

  8. General problem by Britz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I disagree. I don't think the open source community, or rather nerds in general have a special problem with sexism or racism or homophobia for that matter.

    Society has a problem. There is a vocal minority of assholes everywhere. Including in technology.

    Also there is generally a healthy dose of racism and sexism in all of us. Is it natural? I dunno. But I do believe it can really hurt people and it does cloud our judgement. We deal with it in different ways. Some recognize it, try to be educated about it and try to avoid expressing it and keep it from clouding their judgement. Some others don't even see it. Some even celebrate it.

    But no matter if you see something or not. Or if you ignore it. It doesn't go away. And it doesn't help victims, if you tell them that it doesn't exist. Every time there is a story on sexism on Slashdot, most comments are either outright sexist or they deny the existence of sexism. That is the problem, IMHO.

    Case in point:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

    http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

  9. Re:Who is Bruce Perens and why should I care? by Marginal+Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Who is Bruce Perens? Why should I care what he says? And why should we trust a man to discuss women's issues?

    Haven't you heard? - "Bruce" recently began her transition to become "Caitlyn."

  10. Why are you such a sexist, Bruce? by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Women are about 50% of the population and the majority of college graduates. Women could easily create women-dominated computer science programs, companies, and open source projects, run according to whatever preferences they have, if they wanted to. When it comes to open source development, none of the usual barriers feminists postulate to explain underrepresentation of women in certain fields apply: if pimply maladjusted male teenagers living in their mom's basement can create open source projects, surely intelligent, educated, empathetic women can do so as well. And if women's empathetic and communication styles result in superior project performance, they'd quickly take over the open source world.

    Instead, Perens seems to view women as so weak and inferior that the only way they can create open source software is under male guidance and tutelage, within male-dominated projects. Perens and people like him are the real misogynists and sexists, because he obviously deep down still believes that women are the weaker sex and need protection and help from males like him.

    And the real irony behind arguments like Perens's is that on the one hand, he acknowledges deep biological differences between men and women, but then thinks that society should somehow shoe-horn and reeducate people in such a way that despite those differences, outcomes are still statistically equal in a few select areas that he happens to care about.

  11. There's no shortage of stories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    where the man is an evil thing and the woman is the pristine victim of the bestial male. This doesn't make man a beast or a women virginal purity.

    There's no "Empathy Gap". There's a story being written and the geek is the least protected class, male, weak, strange and acts mostly alone, and this is a valuable target.

  12. Chauvinism is alive and well in 2016 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No, really it is. You don't need to look far for piles and piles of peer validated, long running, empirical studies showing how women get the short end of the stick in lots of social, economic, and employment situations.

    I knew all of the above but the clue bat really didn't knock my personal set of teeth out until early in 2015.

    I work for a small-ish nonprofit providing all kinds of IT services, but in a small outfit you end up wearing all kinds of hats. I was asked to move my office to one adjoining a large floor that's essentially free public access computers for job search.

    Why? The reason that was literally told to me was "We need a male presence out there"

    Nonprofit public service tends to attract a lot of female employees, so my workplace is about 95% female. (And working there almost 15 years gives you some real insights in to the dynamics of women in the workplace) Having the above told to me verbatim by the female director of our organization was eye-opening to say the least.

    But not as eye opening as what I experienced in the first week in my new office.

    As you might imagine from what I've said above, the staff helping job seekers on the floor are women. They're all wonderfully qualified and extremely patient. They deal with everyone off the street - From the homeless to the people shunted over from the practically un-staffed unemployment office to the old men who lost their lifetime jobs at the lumber mill that just closed and found that their pension has been raided. (They're unhappy is the point I'm trying to make)

    Some people, a surprisingly large number of people, simply do not respect women. At all. Even other women.

    Sometimes my job is to simply pick up my cup off coffee, walk out on to the floor, and just stand there. When things are getting out of hand, everybody calms down. Sometimes my job is to repeat exactly what my co worker said to an upset job seeker - And suddenly they believe it. Sometimes a troubled soul will come into my office (The door is always open), sit down in a chair, and vent his or her troubles. I listen and nod politely and then direct them back to the people that were helping them 10 minutes ago. (And this works!)

    It's creepy. I'm just the IT guy. When I'm done doing my new job as Y chromosome holder I go back to my desk and resume testing backups and managing EC2 instances and updating the website.

    Women do get treated poorly, even in 2016. Just .. Be aware.

    1. Re:Chauvinism is alive and well in 2016 by west · · Score: 2

      Boy, does this ring a bell. I remember one job where we had a good number of extremely competent women programmers, albeit non-nerds. I was there as a contractor for another project, but I'm an obvious geek.

      It was really horrifying how often in meetings one of the women would say something pertinent which would generally get ignored. But when I repeated it, suddenly the management would start to discuss it. Part of it was cultural ("he's a geek, so listen to him on technical issues") and part of it was the women wouldn't fight for their point, but given that the non-geek men didn't have nearly the same problem, I think a lot of it was simply unconscious bias against women in this domain. I'm pretty certain that if one had asked after the meeting, the manager wouldn't have even been able to recall the female employee trying to make a point.

      The management weren't Neanderthals, and the women never complained about being ignored, but I found it pretty shocking that it was so evident in a highly mixed office (~50% of the programmers were women) in a modern era.

      And to the point below - the fact that there is bias against males in other domains does not in any way negate our responsibility to try and minimize bias in the domains in which we are personally involved.

  13. Manners by ledow · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Being autistic (or on the spectrum somewhere) is no excuse for deliberately being a cock towards women.

    I'm almost certainly autistic, I have all the possible traits of it. But I'll be fucked if I judge a woman coder over any other. Hell, if anything, the social aspects of such conditions mean that you wouldn't conform to such obvious social stereotypes and prejudices.

    Nobody can stop you being a cock, overall. But being a cock towards women rather than men is just a deliberate, targeted prejudice no matter what you claim to be suffering from.

    Stop conflating "autism" with certain social disorders or with racist / sexist / ageist dickheads. If anything, people like myself treat all people equally - with complete apathy.

    1. Re:Manners by PPH · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This.

      Autism may lead to a certain level of social 'clumsiness'. And the subsequent behavior might be misread by some women. But by and large, autism is being used as an excuse for being an asshole. And some guys just figure they can get their way on the job by being assholes. These guys do it to other men as well as women, but men know how to deal with it as a part of their upbringing.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  14. Women aren't victimised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    There are certainly plenty of odd developers, and although we might seem rude or argumentative to outsiders, on the whole I'd actually say that women tend to get better treatment from technical people. Some people just get offended by everything these days. People who have been stuck talking to computers for ten or fifteen years are going to become slightly literal, pedantic, or concise in their method of communication. This may not aways appeal to very sociable young women, but women when they are interested, can be excellent developers too. Just don't read hostility into communication where it wasn't intended. Software is an area where we do sacrifice time on social graces for quick and productive decision making - although that doesn't mean that anyone should be individually victimised, which is definitely unacceptable, and sackable, or that there should be deliberate nastyness.

  15. All the haters are just proving his point by Suffering+Bastard · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What's with all the Bruce hate? What is wrong with discussing a "gender empathy gap", why it might exist and what we might do about it? If you disagree with his point then offer sensible counterpoints of your own, but when you insult him or his ideas you're just reinforcing his point that the tech world is full of socially challenged asshats.

    I would also think that Bruce's contributions to open software would merit some reflective humility, to maybe sit back and think a bit about what he's saying. Haven't you seen misogynistic behavior online? Why do you think that exists? Are you okay with it? If not, what can be done about it?

    Thank you Bruce for openly speaking your concerns and ideas. I hope we can find a way to foster a more humane and empathetic open source community.

    --
    "Molest me not with this pocket calculator stuff."
    - Deep Thought
    1. Re:All the haters are just proving his point by Nemyst · · Score: 2

      What's with all the Bruce hate? What is wrong with discussing a "gender empathy gap", why it might exist and what we might do about it? If you disagree with his point then offer sensible counterpoints of your own, but when you insult him or his ideas you're just reinforcing his point that the tech world is full of socially challenged asshats.

      While I agree that hating on him isn't the right call, I can see why people would do that. We're hearing about "Waaah tech is hostile to women!" and "Nerds are mean to women!" and so on every week. People are quite frankly exasperated with the constant berating that's largely baseless or restricted to a tiny minority that everybody would rather see disappear, women treatment or not, but who're extremely difficult to dispose of. It's not because suddenly women are involved that excising those rotten apples becomes more important.

      Combined with how computer science curricula are getting changed in a bid to appeal to women (which often seems to mean dumbing it down, because women need things easier for some inexplicable reason?), making the current group feel alienated with their own favorite subject, and how nerds/geeks as a group are known to be often harassed or bullied, the shield raising shouldn't really surprise anyone.

  16. Time is finite, what are your priorities? by trout007 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Being an expert in a particular area means that you have neglected learning in other areas. You only have so much time to learn things. To many technically oriented people all of the vagueness of social interactions is not logical, it cannot be derived from first principles. If is culture and it is that way because that is the way it is. This isn't interesting to many technical people so we spend our time on more interesting things. So while you may bitch that technical people don't have social skills what you really mean is that instead of learning social skills they spent that time becoming an expert in a technical field. You have spent your time learning social skills and then complain the reason you don't have technical skills is because those with them are mean. That's like me after spending my life learning English moving to a Spanish speaking country and bitching that I could learn Spanish much easier if all of these people would just learn English to help me. Sorry but that's not how it works.

    I am an excellent mechanical design engineer that has spend over 20 years learning and honing my skills. This includes studying in my spare time and even my hobbies contribute in some way. Even entertainment I like watching "How it's made" so I can see examples of automation equipment for ideas. Some bosses have asked me to put together a 30 minute talk to help people learn to become a good design engineer. I laugh (maybe my lack of social skills) and say I only need a minute. I'd tell the people to dedicate their lives and spend 20 years learning this stuff and you can be just like me! Most people don't want to do that and spend their time with other things. That's fine, but don't come complaining that I lack budgeting or scheduling skills. No kidding, I have no interest in management. That's your job.

    --
    I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
  17. Re:"There's no shortage of stories .... by Nemyst · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There's no shortage of stories of horrible treatment of men in Open Source projects either, but those don't show up on Slashdot every week.

  18. Take the red pill Bruce. by PrimeNumber · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Safe spaces are a symptom yes, but you're wrong about the disease.
    The disease: Raising kids to believe that women are always right and men are always wrong, giving every kid a trophy just for showing up, and helicopter parents holding kids' hands their entire lives. We know have a generation of legal adults that require "trigger warnings" before they hear anything the least bit upsetting during university lectures.

    So why are you carrying water for a group that prefer to whinge, complain, and force others to act the way they want, instead of getting off their ass and downloading source to start their own projects?

    Cover your ears (trigger warning): You're too old to buy into this bullshit, and I believe this is a troll to get back in the headlines.

  19. Plenty of people like Brendan Eich by MikeRT · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A person I met long ago and really liked, and wife to Alan Cox. Not anyone unreasonable. Still driven out of the community.

    Everything you said could have just as easily been said about people like Brendan Eich, who've been told "there is no place for someone with views like yours in our community." You want inclusivity? Then practice it on everything, including ideology. Until then, you are worse than people like weev because at least they admit that they reject "equality" and "inclusion" as ideals. You reject it on ideology, then someone else is free to reject it wherever they please. It really is an all-or-nothing proposition.

  20. And tere are men being really shitty to other men by SkunkPussy · · Score: 2, Funny

    But as men we have to deal with it. If this is a feminist issue, then a logical consequence might be that women need protecting from men because they are too weak to protect themselves, i.e. men and women aren't equal... but this exactly the opposite of most lines of feminist thinking. Smells like a proof by contradiction.

    --
    SURELY NOT!!!!!
  21. One Woman's Experience by CAOgdin · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As a woman who's been in the electronics/computer field for more than 55 years, now, I read with much disgust the attempts by some in this thread to discount women, and then claim that, somehow, "It ain't true."

    Believe me, I've been there. After three books, hundreds of published papers and articles, and decades of consulting to Fortune 500 firms, I have been on the receiving end of the misogynistic "swinging dicks" who couldn't write a competent subroutine or draw a working circuit if their lives depended on it. I can (and, in the past, have) named names and identified organizations where women dare not go. What's interesting is having the CEO of a Fortune 500 company hire me (at $2,500/day) and then have twerps three years out of school decide they know more than I and refuse my counsel because my anatomy is different from theirs. Usually, there's a competent male around who steps in and shuts the abuse down. When there's not, I have developed a strong skill in suckering such blithering idiots into cul de sacs of their own ignorant reasoning, until they are reduced to mumbling to themselves. But, why should I ever have had to DEVELOP that skill?

    We are all born the same way, and discover our gender as we grow up...but, due to family influences (e.g., drunken men abusing their wives, "men of the house" who want their women "barefoot and pregnant"), some males grow up with a tacit belief that women are, somehow, inferior to men. There's a name for these people: They are BIGOTS (and it often extends to other differences, like cultural heritage, skin color, education, that are patently irrelevant to judging whether the person is "human" or not).

    Fortunately, not all men are chained to this philosphers' wall, drawing conclusions from shadows and accepting them as fact. There are many men who exhibit humanity and treat ALL others with respect and dignity...and they are a delight to work alongside. Unfortunately, they are outnumbered by the dolts, in my experience.

    1. Re:One Woman's Experience by west · · Score: 2

      Amazing. A post about actual experience, and an instant chorus appears of "you think *you* have it bad, try being male!"

      Pathetic.

      Let's try simple logic:

      "Programmers who are jerks towards everybody" + "Programmers who are jerks only towards women" > "Programmers who are jerks towards everybody"

      And the set of "Programmers who are jerks only towards women" is not particularly small. I'm not particularly perceptive, but even I couldn't help but notice a pretty pervasive bias against women in my programming experience (especially early on) with it being a mixture of "women can't really be high-end programmers" and "I don't want to work around women (because they remind me of my lack of romantic success)".

    2. Re:One Woman's Experience by iplayfast · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I once took an online programming course, and we were supposed to comment on each others code. I was critical of everyone's equally, and also tried to be positive about ways that stuff could be improved.
      After that exercise I noticed that the one girl in the group didn't talk to me much anymore (online) and I got the distinct feeling that she felt my criticisms of her code were about her. Thing is, the criticisms weren't that out of the ordinary. Stuff like commenting things that were obvious or suggesting ways that she could tighten up her code. I was much more harsh with others. She's the only one who took offence and dropped out of the course. (I don't know if it was me that caused it, but I suspect it was part of the reason). Everyone else either took my critic's at face value or argued back about it. Of course this is a sample of one, so isn't significant.

      In university the class ratio (in the early 80's) was about 50/50 girl/boys in the first year. second year more like 30/70. By the final year it was close to 10/90. I don't think this is due to the professors marking the girls harder, or letting the boys slip by. I think it was because the courses were tough and not interesting to the girls in general.

      I really think there is a personality difference between men and women, and yes, when a woman overcomes that difference and is able to work with a group of guys she is the odd fish out, so it makes it more difficult. But that difficulty should not be blamed for the inequality in the first place.

      Men and women just view things differently, and have different opinions on what is important. In some environments men excel, in others women do.

      That's my view of it.

    3. Re:One Woman's Experience by BitZtream · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Believe me, I've been there. After three books, hundreds of published papers and articles, and decades of consulting to Fortune 500 firms, I have been on the receiving end of the misogynistic "swinging dicks" who couldn't write a competent subroutine or draw a working circuit if their lives depended on it. I can (and, in the past, have) named names and identified organizations where women dare not go. What's interesting is having the CEO of a Fortune 500 company hire me (at $2,500/day) and then have twerps three years out of school decide they know more than I and refuse my counsel because my anatomy is different from theirs. Usually, there's a competent male around who steps in and shuts the abuse down. When there's not, I have developed a strong skill in suckering such blithering idiots into cul de sacs of their own ignorant reasoning, until they are reduced to mumbling to themselves. But, why should I ever have had to DEVELOP that skill?

      You think that has anything to do with you being female? If you do, you really aren't that smart. A large portion of 23-28 year old * will behave that way towards *.

      Its not your vagina, its that they are immature young adults fresh out of a university and even without the university they think they know everything, certainly far more than you would (so they think).

      I'm male and go through the same shit regularly since I work at a company that pride itself on hiring people fresh out of school (we're on campus even). We get 2-4 new devs from NC State every year, and it doesn't matter if they are male or female, the ratio of assholes to people at that age is significant, regardless of sex.

      If I were to write your post as a male, and switch the sexes ... I'd be a misogynistic asshole. Pot, Kettle, Black. Your blurb at the end doesn't absolve you of doing exactly what you're pretending to be the victim of.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  22. Credentials. by westlake · · Score: 4, Informative

    Who is Bruce Perens?

    Bruce Perens.... created The Open Source Definition and published the first formal announcement and manifesto of open source. He co-founded the Open Source Initiative (OSI) with Eric S. Raymond.

    The original announcement of The Open Source Definition was made on February 9, 1998 on Slashdot and elsewhere.

    Perens is an amateur radio operator, with call sign K6BP [who] promotes open radio communications standards.

    Perens founded No-Code International in 1998 with the goal of ending the Morse Code test then required for an Amateur Radio license. His rationale was that Amateur Radio should be a tool for young people to learn advanced technology and networking, rather than something that preserved antiquity and required new hams to master outmoded technology before they were allowed on the air.

    Perens worked for seven years at the New York Institute of Technology Computer Graphics Lab. After that, he worked at Pixar for 12 years, from 1987 to 1999. He is credited as a studio tools engineer on the Pixar films A Bug's Life (1998) and Toy Story 2 (1999).

    From 2002 to 2006, Prentice Hall PTR published the Bruce Perens' Open Source Series, a set of 24 books covering various open source software tools, for which Perens served as the series editor. It was the first book series to be published under an open license.

    Bruce Perens

  23. Re:Why don't you investigate Ian Murdock's death? by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 3, Interesting

    can you please investigate what happened to Ian Murdock?

    Ian was a really bright and capable guy with a dark side. Unfortunately, at times he had difficulty dealing with anger, debilitating depression, and blame projection. He was arrested for battery and illegal confinement in 2009, this event with SFPD wasn't the first time.

    I was his friend once, although that was more than a decade ago. I absolutely hate that he died without a friend left in the world to help him and in such an undignified, unfair, senseless way. But that's what happened. The police were not to blame.

  24. "Mobbing" by Guppy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I"ve sometimes wondered if this behavior is similar to the mobbing behavior you see in certain species such as Monk Seals:
    http://www.pinnipeds.org/seal-...

    "Mobbing" refers to a pathological behavior that occurs when the gender ratio becomes skewed, with an excess of males versus females. The adult males become increasingly aggressive towards females (and immature pups), and will injure and even kill them, as multiple males gang up to play out a violent parody of their normal mating behavior. This problem becomes self-perpetuating as females are hunted down, with natural populations having observed to be driven into ratios as extreme as 3 males for every 1 surviving female.

  25. Put up or shut up by Opportunist · · Score: 2

    First of all, don't postulate something without proof. In other words, first you show THAT women are treated badly in OSS projects. Then I read the rest of that diatribe.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  26. Re:"There's no shortage of stories .... by sumdumass · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's because you don't feel sorry for guys getting their feelings hurt but you get almost teary eyed when women cry. Its sort of the essence of being a man.

  27. oh, the FEELS by citizenr · · Score: 2

    not this again :/

    Recent talk by Sheldon Cooper sums this topic pretty nicely (around 35.30 minutes in) https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
    We DONT CARE about feelings, we care about absolutes. I wont cater to some alien (to me) social norms just because you are a precious snowflake, I will tell you outright what is wrong ('this code is garbage' etc).

    This is also pretty good and on topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    --
    Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
  28. Re:Priorities by tlambert · · Score: 3, Informative

    A couple of points...

    How about, to start, that all sexual abuse and harassment will be considered strictly unacceptable?

    Newsflash: it's considered unacceptable by most people. However, *considering* something unacceptable, and it actually *being* unacceptable are two very different things. It's not like when Wile E. Coyote runs off the end of a cliff, looks down, and the law of gravity "considers it unacceptable that he's standing in the middle of the air", and takes action to prohibit it. Social conventions are not the same things as the laws of physics.

    For example, the kinds of things that Linus Torvalds has said on mailing lists is stuff that would get any employee of a company instantly fired. Yet in his arrogance he thinks that because he's some super-duper-important OSS guru guy that the same code of conduct doesn't apply to him, which is a pretty disgusting way to think.

    Except... it demonstrably does not, in fact, apply to him. When he is making pronouncements from the throne, he isn't an employee, he's a king, and short of armed insurrection, it's almost impossible to involuntarily remove a king from power.

    So yeah, for the foundation, how about stopping harassment and abuse?

    "Patches welcome".

    You can engineer social systems, and you can even engineer emergent properties into social systems, if you have a deep understanding of what you are doing. But the problem with feedback mechanisms in social constructs is that the feedback designed to correct the aberrant behaviour from the normative baseline within any design, is that the feedback has to be non-ignorable. It has to take away something that the person or persons receiving the feedback value, as a punitive measure, and (as studies on gambling addition and slot machine design have shown), it has to have intermittent positive reinforcement that is valued by the recipient as well.

    So at this point, you might as well be saying "how about stopping terrorism?", since we've been just as ineffective at that.

    As for Autisim Spectrum stuff, I believe that it is very common among all people in this world, male, female, black, white, yellow, green.

    This is, at best, a speculative statement, since study after study has shown autism to be more prevalent in males than females:

    http://www.autism.org.uk/about...

    I don't think that necessarily has any bearing upon whether a person would treat others badly.

    No, but it certainly increases the perception by non-autistic persons that they are being treated badly by autistic persons. It doesn't matter whether or not they are actually being treated badly, if it's their perception that they are. Objective facts will not change subjective perceptions.

    I notice a lot of Japanese dramas have characters who often are in the autistic spectrum and those characters actually make the dramas more interesting and are almost always depicted as being exceptional in more than one way, often with incredible gifts and ability to influence people positively.

    Autistic savants comprise only about 10% of those with autism. They tend to make for interesting stories for those without autism, since savants occur in the non-autist population a less than 10 times that rate -- less than 1%. Thus, it's no surprise that they appear more in fiction than they do in reality.

    While they may be interesting, realize that 9 out of 10 people with autism will therefore not be savants, and if that's not your expectation, the expectation needs to be adjusted, since the myth "all people with autism have savant abilities in some area" is harmful, and is based primarily in an expectation that the universe has a built-in inherent fairness.

    https://www.autism.com/underst...

  29. Re:Priorities by elrous0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I have an idea for starters. How about, to start, that all sexual abuse and harassment will be considered strictly unacceptable?

    How about for starters, we define clearly what does (and doesn't) constitute "sexual abuse and harassment?" Because in the United States, both are already considered not only social unacceptable, but also illegal.

    The problem isn't in getting people to agree to the premise that "all sexual abuse and harassment will be considered strictly unacceptable." The problem is that SJW's would redefine both of those terms so broadly as to include almost all social interactions between men and women.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  30. tough guys don't HIDE adversarial behavior by raymorris · · Score: 2

    It's good that you were very clear you're not saying ALL men are this way or ALL women are that way. Certainly that wouldn't be true.

    I understand there ARE studies which suggest that when men and women are "assholes", men are MORE LIKELY to be an asshole to your face, while women are MORE LIKELY to do it behind your back. It might be that some men feel more comfortable being a "tough guy", while many women prefer to maintain the illusion of being "nice", that women's social cues tend to value getting along while men's tend to value, or at least accept, a degree of machismo.

    Neither is better or worse, IMHO. My wife writes the holiday cards (she can be nice) while I handle the abusive bill collectors and anyone trying to take advantage of us (I can be tough). She COULD be tough and I COULD be nice, but being a bit adversarial and brosque and comes more naturally to me and being sweet and "getting along" comes more naturally to her.

  31. Message to Bruce Perens by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 2


    Bruce,

    I read your article, The Empathy Gap, and Why Women are Treated Badly in Open Source Communities. (I saw it on Slashdot.)

    It seems to me that I have some useful comments:

    You said, "How did we ever get to the point that a vocal minority of males in Open Source communities behave in the most boorish, misogynistic, objectifying manner toward women?"

    A vocal minority of males on Slashdot, for example, behave in the most boorish, objectifying manner toward each other.

    An example of a programmer being boorish: Linus Torvalds fires off angry 'compiler-masturbation' rant. Yes, Linus is a wonderful leader, but he can also be boorish.

    The 1953 translation to English of the book, The Second Sex, began decades of open hostility of women toward men in the United States.

    The 1963 book, The Feminine Mystique, began decades of a new kind of sneaky hostility of women toward men in the United States.

    Most men don't know how to deal with the hostility of women in the United States. They don't see any reason for it. The also don't detect it clearly.

    The issues are far more complicated than indicated by those few statements.

    I'm writing a book about how people use their brains. The book will have a much more complete explanation of the relationships between women and men.

    Michael Jennings

  32. Re:Priorities by dbIII · · Score: 3, Insightful

    has said on mailing lists is stuff that would get any employee of a company instantly fired

    Are you still in school? If so you are in for a bit of a shock when you enter the workforce.

  33. Re:Priorities by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have an idea for starters. How about, to start, that all sexual abuse and harassment will be considered strictly unacceptable?

    Define that. In my first sexual harassment class back in the late 80's, a fellow asked the counselor what sexual harassment was defined as.

    Her answer? "Anything any woman thinks is sexual harassment - is sexual harassment.

    As you might imagine, a hush fell over the room. How does one have any interaction with a woman if she can interpret "hello" as sexual harassment?

    I did ask a coworker what she considered as harassment - she said "It depends". Keep in mind this was a woman who used to find it funny to goose me when I was using a glove box and couldn't move or get hy hands loose.

    But back to our counselor we were told that remarks on how the woman looked, saying we liked her jewelry, or her dress, or her hairstyle, or any mention of anything physical or anything that could be interpreted as sexual in nature would very likely result in us getting fired.

    Know what effect that had on most every man there? We avoided women like the plague. We made certain that nothing other than business was discussed when we absolutely had to deal with them, and we very often made certain to have a witness along with us.

    Know what effect that had on the assholes? None.

    Want to know what effect that had on 99 percent of the women there? Pissed them off royally. Our staff assistant had the dirtiest mind I've ever known. Silly small talk. She was devastated when the guys started avoiding her. Because despite what a few folks think, women actually think about sex, talk about sex, and make jokes about it.

    Some years later, after seeing the unproductive chill this had put on campus inter-gender relations, not to mention actual real cases remained unchanged in number, these draconian guidelines were relaxed a good bit.

    I'm not certain if the incident had anything to do with the change of heart, but not too long before this happened, one of the machinists was taken to task because someone saw in his toolbox, a photograph of a cheerleader. Since photographs of women in cute little outfits were considered harassment of other women, he was turned into HR.

    The offensive photograph that was so demeaning to women and considered sexual harassment? It was a photo of his daughter, who had made the high school cheerleading team. He did note that if he was disciplined, he was going to take it to the legal system, as denying hime to post a school photo of his daughter, not unlike the ones the HR people had on their desks, surely looked like discrimination.

    So be careful what you ask for. In your ideal world where women cannot hear anything regarding sex, you could end up with...http://feminist.org/education/SexSegregation.asp

    or http://www.tolerance.org/magaz...

    https://62e528761d0685343e1c-f...

    http://cdn.inquisitr.com/wp-co...

    or even.....http://www.relativityonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/12653311_img9939.jpg

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  34. Overload == operator, moderate, optimize for +, &a by An+dochasac · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Even before Bruce wrote this timely article, I wondered whether more women in open source might be a cause or an effect of better moderation. My brief time working with the late Telsa Gwynn at GUADEC 2003 suggested that moderation was one of her under-appreciated roles. But she was attacked by the misogynistic mob (AKA the open source community.) Were it not for Telsa's thick skin and an overdeveloped sense of forgiveness, none of us would have benefited from her work. Many other women and others outside of a particularly narrow age/race/religion/gender profile have experienced similar when attempting to contribute and most gave up. We tolerate Linus's rantings and ignore that only timing and humility separated Linus from countless other early *nix hackers. We tolerate Gangolf Jobb's racist license and Trumpish rantings because he is a good coder. My family and remote team members met at GUADEC Istanbul where a very well-known opensource developer spewed misogynistic rantings that embarrassed and offended me, projected a terrible impression of Christians and Euro/American society to my global team who were experiencing western society for the first time. He came very near to inspiring at least one person to push him into the Bosporus. Why does this happen? Part of it is the same reason Whitney Houston and other rock , movie and sports superstars are bat shit insane. Society should be a counterbalance to the Id, but when we worship people as superstars, there is no counterbalance and Id rules. The defence mechanism takes over when the inner demons unleashed by bad decisions are externalized, possibly as police brutality. Similar forces were at play when Hans Reiser became our OJ Simpson.

    In the past that role of moderation was performed by a central government (e.g. the FCC), a tight group of highly educated individuals, a class/caste system. Twitter and Facebook use something close to a democracy but the S/N ratio can quickly fall to the level of CB radio, AOL and usenet. The more sophisticated merit-based moderation system used by Slashdot, some opensource projects and creative sites such as worth1000 works well, at least above a certain threshold. But these systems must be designed to prevent individuals or small groups from becoming immune to criticism. Within government legal frameworks the censor or impeachment is a mechanism for moderation. We could do something within opensource communities where an individual's ethics could taint their contributions. Each of us would be able to choose whether we want to contribute or use ethically-tainted patches.

    Back in the 1980s when I may have been the last male to wirewrap a PDP-11 core memory board, a friend commented, "Did you ever notice that men in the comp-sci program are (80s equivalent of "Meh") but the women are brilliant?" Yes, I did notice that. But whatever happened to Karen Norwood, Maureen T, Kathy Christiansen, Norah K, and the sole woman in our Physics program?

    This is where overloading the == operator comes in. Equality is an overloaded word. Here in Ireland, the word was a slogan for LBGT marriage rights which passed referendum with an overwhelming majority. But the word "equality" doesn't apply to gender, race, religion or immigration issues here. But do we really want women to become equal to 20-something males who live in their parent's basement who have the moral and emotional depth of comic book and video game heros? I don't. Let's take the best woman have to offer and not try to force them into our broken mold.