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Opel Dealers Accused of Modyfing the Software of Polluting Cars (deredactie.be)
An anonymous reader writes: Belgian public broadcasting station VRT has discovered that GM Opel dealerships in Belgium seem to be updating engine management code when Zafira cars equipped with the 1.6 litre CDTI diesel engine are brought in for service. After the software change, the nitrogen oxides (NOx) emissions drop sharply, at the cost of reduced power output. Bern University of Applied Sciences and environmental lobby club DUH previously found this model to pass European emissions standards only when the rear wheels are not rotating. When the rear wheels are made to spin along, NOx emissions increase to several times the limit set by European regulations. General Motors denied using defeat devices as well as the update program that seems to be taking place. However, an anonymous mechanic at an Opel dealership states that GM started pushing updates shortly after the Dieselgate scandal broke.
I suspect that the majority of brands do the same thing more or less, so I'm not surprised.
It's back to the drawing board for those that sets up the conditions for tests and the emissions limits to get figures that better reflects reality. And this is not only diesels that are circumventing the regulations, I expect everyone of doing similar regardless of fuel type.
There's no surprise to customers that the fuel consumption figures provided by car manufacturers are almost impossible to achieve in reality, no matter what the gauges in the cars says.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
In other news...
Funtime Candy Wow! - my plan for eventually conquering Japan.
In the 1970s I had an Opel 1500 coupe. It looked a lot like a BMW 2001. That car was so sweet. It handled like a dream. It had an electronic fuel injection system--an analog electronic FI system. Fuel injection in those days was so rare. 99% of the vehicles on the road had carbs.
That car would start it any kind of weather and go like the wind. Loved that car. Wish I still had it.
Funky software on new Opels? Not my problem. Much ado over nothing.
So if pretty much every manufacturer is doing this, how is this not equal to a kind of mass civic protest?
If in reality car emissions are higher than overly ambitious standards, but still low enough that air quality is OK - should the cars be "fixed" (as in the pet related term, neutered) or instead should the regulations be brought to realistic levels based on what cars are actually emitting today?
You think our air quality is ok?
So if pretty much every manufacturer is doing this, how is this not equal to a kind of mass civic protest?
Money.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
"as well as well"
If in reality car emissions are higher than overly ambitious standards, but still low enough that air quality is OK - should the cars be "fixed" (as in the pet related term, neutered) or instead should the regulations be brought to realistic levels based on what cars are actually emitting today?
Air quality is anything but okay. I can't speak for the US, but here in Europe, we have serious problems with it. In China it's so bad in some areas you can actually only register a new car if it's electric - that's actually an important reason why electric cars are getting more attention now.
If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?
One says the cars were modified outside the factory before to increase power. The other implies they have always been this way and now are being modified to be lower emissions.
So which is it?
I hope there is further investigation but this seems like more than coincidence.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
The chip mod industry is booming so that big rig wannabe monster truck diesels can pollute with impunity. Step across the border into Arizona or Nevada and bingo it is fine to pollute the air. What really pisses me off is that the industry is a farce, here we are complaining about "euroweany' diesels that get stellar fuel economy and the same time brag about monster hunks of shit that rip up the environment and send a shit load of carbon in the form of soot and CO2 into the atmosphere. Americans are becoming so stupid that they are blind to the truth here! It is blatantly obvious that we are being duped by the auto/oil industry. What fucking joke!
"Overly ambitious" standards? In whose opinion, the car manufacturers or those who suffer the consequences?
This isn't some civic protest akin to Prohibition, these are regulations designed to avoid Tragedy of the Commons scenarios with real costs to society. In the UK alone, nitrogen dioxide emissions cause 23,500 extra deaths, costing around £13bn per year.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
Except people are dying because of bad air quality, you may be correct.
"Dieselgate scandal " Can we please stop calling every controversy *gate. emailgate. Celebgate, Donutgate Climategate, Intelgate, Bridgegate. etc
Diesel is the problem in Europe. Air filled with particulates from small diesel engines.
My Volvo V40 D4 used 4.7l/100km for 30.000km strait. At the very first service interval, the ECU software was updated. Immediately the car started to use 5.3l/100km and no longers seems to deliver the same power. My driving habbits and usual routes have not changed. My shoes didn't get any heavier. How do you explain 15% more fuel usage other than trying to cover up software 'flaws'?
To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
Opel has been gone for 40 years. Cute little GT. Maxed out at 105.
80 yers ago it was the opel motor company, but for decades now it
is general motors!
When the VW scandal broke, it was pointed out that if this software were opened up (open source), it could be independently audited, and this kind of fuckery would not be possible.
Now we've got Volvo, Renault, and Opel (GM) doing it. This simply underscores that transparency is needed to prevent fraud. You can't take the auto manufacturers' word for it. And you can't trust the EPA to test for it.
My air quality is great, but I live on the west coast. I love the smell of ocean air.
Even LA is a lot better than it used to be. I think we are making progress.
When was the last time you saw smog?
Cars do pollute, despite governments pretending they don't!
If you are idling at stop lights diesel sucks. If you are on a highway it's better.
Cities compound the problem by having lots of stop and go traffic.
Sure the air is fine, couldn't be better, who the fuck want's to live till they are 70 and still be able to blow out birthday candles.
There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
You know those remote places where a car passes by once a day at most?
The windows doesn't get dirty there. The rain that falls down doesn't collect pollution on the way down.
When was the last time you see a window not get dirty?
It is impressive and depressing how badly spell-checked slashdot articles are.
When was the last time you saw smog?
If you need to see something, then feast your eyes on this: http://aqicn.org/city/amsterdam/
Use the map or the search box to find your area of residence and take a look there. Make sure you check it out when there is no rain to clear up the air.
> but still low enough that air quality is OK
Define OK... because it most certainly isn't with what the scientists whose recommendations the regulations were based on defined it as.
Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
>So if pretty much every manufacturer is doing this, how is this not equal to a kind of mass civic protest?
Well, if Bernie Madoff were to resist arrest - and then every other convicted fraudster in the US resisted incarceration or tried to escape all at once... would you also consider *that* an example of legitimate civic protest ?
Sure you *can* protest for the right to harm others - but that doesn't mean your protest deserves anything but scorn from those others or lawmakers. At best this is "protest" in the same way that the South's seccession to preserve slavery and actively oppose states-rights (the claim that it was defending states rights is flagrantly ahistorical bullshit - it was in fact opposing the rights of states like Maine to *not* respect their slave-laws and not feel compelled to return runaways) was a civic protest - it still deservedly got suppressed.
Your rights end where mine begins. All pollution intrudes on my rights, we may grant a license for some on the basis of wanting the outcomes of the polluting process but you never get a *right* to do it because you are harming others, you get a limited license granted under specific conditions to minimize the harm suffered by the allowance. If you overstep those limits by any degree whatsoever you are the enemy of freedom - no matter what republican politicians say.
Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
If every manufacturer decided to make seatbelts unsafe (and lied about it), would you consider that a civil protest or a criminal action?
Many corporations breaking the rules in an effort to save money doesn't make it right in any way shape or form.
Oh arse
Did the car makers complain about the standards? No
Were they upfront about the issue to the customer and public? No
Did they install the best for low emission software by default? No
This is not bending the rules but breaking them.
And the standards are not overly ambitious: http://www.theguardian.com/env... Stop buying fraud stuff.
They're new engine line up consists of ONE engine - a 2.0L 4 cyl in various stages of tune and turbocharging (presumably to save development costs). Good luck to them getting decent NOx figures out of that in the high power versions, not to mention longevity. There does seem to be an obsession with shriking engines below what is reasonable (3 cyl 1.0L in a Mondeo?? Hello Ford!) simply to meet CO2 emissions targets. Thats all well and good but you don't get something for nothing and high pressure small engines just don't last so you will probably find the car scrapped years earlier than otherwise and so completely negating any CO2 benefit accrued by the engine. Short term thinking at its finest.
You know what's strange? I've a 2003 BMW 320D. I regularly get consumption under 6 litres of diesel per 100KM . The car is officially rated at 175g of C02 per km. Now I sometimes drive a friends new 320D ED (Efficient Dynamics) which is meant to officially emit 101 - 113 grams of C02 per km. It gets more or less the same fuel economy. Maybe it is a little better though nowhere as near as what the official figures would suggest. Then there was a colleague who had a new 318D and was consuming more than my old car. Basically he always had the foot to the floor when driving if he wanted to accelerate quickly.
Anyway these days I use an electric bike or a normal bike as much as possible and only use the car when I have to. That's the best way to reduce emissions.
The entire green movement to clean up motor vehicles by politicians was a farce and capitalist corps will do whatever they please no matter what.
Because the Honda Civic 1.6 diesel is one of the few that actually lives up to its official consumption figures...
The customers satisfaction is always going to be important. I am not surprised by any of this. People have been hacking their vehicle engines to make them perform better for a long time. I'm sure a lot of people forgot about the catalytic converter test tube. A pipe that could be installed in place of a converter so it could be tested (wink,wink). Or people using plates to bypass EGR valves, or using golf tee's to plug up vacuum lines to emission devices. Only today all that stuff is not necessary with the advent of software tweaks. All you have to do is tweak the engine management software and you now have a better running engine. VW simply knew that this could be done so covertly that even certification could be tricked. If you ask any engine maker they will tell you that a engine will average out better with less crap bolted on then with more. Especially with diesel, the EPA's of the world have basically managed to strangle engines to a point they do not work well.
The car makers have always been complaining about the standards in Europe. Their default position is always "it's not possible" yet they eventually manage to achieve the goal. The goal in the EU by 2030 is to have fuel consumption of 2litres per 100km (diesel if I am not mistaken).
Furthermore dieselgate doesn't relate to the latest generation of diesel engines that VW are selling (the EU 6 standard). The issues were with the EU 5 standard engines. So (but I am not an expert) if my understanding is correct, the cars currently on sale by VW are actually meeting the standards. The main issue is with the EU 5 standard engines which are no longer on sale.
No, it's just a front wheel drive car. But for some strange reason its fuel consumption is lower if the unpowered rear wheels are spinning along (which is normally not the case during an emissions test, but will always be the case during actual driving). It's kind of hard to find a logical reason for this other than plain cheating.
The real problem with China is their population density and lack of emission controls. The need to spread out, install scrubbers for their coal fired plants, and transition to nuclear. Besides, most of the automobile pollution isn't gasoline cars, it's from diesel and 2-stroke mopeds.
Life is not for the lazy.
Besides, most of the automobile pollution isn't gasoline cars, it's from diesel and 2-stroke mopeds.
This article is about cars with diesel engines....
If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?
When you want the kingpins, go after the dealers.
And that's exactly the kind of traffic where EVs shine. No idling and regen braking makes for quiet, clean city driving.
Anyone pretending that all car companies have done this and are on the shirttails of getting busted are in denial.
Hell even Chevy had the Diesel Cruze last year, surprisingly, just after Dieselgate broke, it was announced that the Diesel version of the cruze would not return for 2016, and that was chevy's only diesel passenger car (in the US).
Have you ever fallen asleep at the keybhanusdiog?
Diesel is the problem in Europe. Air filled with particulates from small diesel engines.
If you are worried about particulates from engines, you should be at least as worried about gasoline as diesel, as gasoline cars produce just as much particulate output as diesels. You aren't, though. You're just an anti-diesel shill.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Right, with the primary emphasis on pollution they cause. My comment was in regards to the folly of China only registering electric cars instead of modern diesel cars; their electric power generation is a joke and thus you're only moving the pollution to another area.
You know, in most parts (if not all), you're lucky if you can even get up to 2/3rds the top speed there compared to the US and parts of Europe. That, and you'll be stuck in slow rolling traffic in the major cities anyways. So correct me if I'm wrong here, but I doubt the Chinese would notice a difference in driving with a mandated software update to existing VWs and Skodas on the road. And to my knowledge, China doesn't mandate annual inspections of vehicles. As long as it doesn't throw black and blue smoke, it's deemed "clean". Just get those diesel cars mandated to have a firmware update and the nearest dealer - free of cost - (paid for by the automotive company) within the proceeding 12 months.
Life is not for the lazy.
Looking through the documents the problem is when in 4WD mode,
it is OK in 2WD mode.
So the problem is much smaller than in VW.
The particulates problem in European cities is not due to diesel cars, but mopeds. They are essentially unregulated and a single moped can produces as many particulates as hundreds of diesel cars.
The newest buses in my home city have kinetic-energy recovery systems (KERS) so they switch their diesel engines off at stops, traffic lights etc. and use the KERS energy to drive off and only restart the engine a few seconds later.
In China the problem is with coal power stations. Registering only electric vehicles in fact make things worse for the air.
The Zafira is front wheel drive I doubt that turning the rear wheels has much to do with increasing pollution levels...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Zafira
It was in the financial times and reuters and many others last october. not news.
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0...
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
If in reality car emissions are higher than overly ambitious standards, but still low enough that air quality is OK
The second part of your premise is the problem. In some cases, VW cars were emitting as much pollution as a semi truck.
Long live the Speaker Bracelet
Rolo D. Monkey
If it's not one fing, it's another.
So if pretty much every manufacturer is doing this, how is this not equal to a kind of mass civic protest?
Because corporations are not citizens, no matter how much the legal system screws up the definitions.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
You've only qualified the claims of air quality by pointing out that we're doing something about air quality. I live near 13 coal plants--one is a multi-gigawatt plant--and our air quality is decent; it could be better. I don't live in Beijing, I know that much.
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"Overly ambitious" standards? In whose opinion,
It's not opinion, it's fact.
If the standards were even close to reasonable, then most manufacturers would meet them without cheating.
Since it appears perhaps ALL companies are cheating the tests, then obviously the standards are unreasonable in terms of allowing the manufacture of cars that people will actually buy.
If the standards are so unrealistic that both consumers and car companies ignore them, they simply need to be re-thought to be realistic rather than some imagined figure by people who know nothing about cars.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Emissions have nothing to do with safety, seatbelts do.
DUH DUH DUH.
I personally would be fine without seatbelt regulations, they don't matter as few people would be stupid enough to buy a car without them. They actually provide value unlike unrealistic emissions standards that make a car impractical to drive.
In fact if you think about it, if most cars actually followed the way too high standards they would (as the article notes) be much slower - and therefore a hazard when trying to merge with traffic. I wouldn't want one of those crippled deathtraps, it would be almost as bad as buying a car without seatbelts. Why do you support making cars more dangerous to drive in?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Yes, but far more of the diesel-produced particulates are carcinogenic.
Go look it up.
We need to get an unmolested ECU (Junkyard from totaled car?) and an ECU from a car that went in for this supposed update, then find a way to dump the firmware.
I bet the folks over at ECUproject.com could help out with this.
It would be pretty interesting to compare the two.
Even just getting a 'scope and see how the injector pulses compare at idle and different engine loads, assuming it doesn't use mechanical "jerkbox" injection.
Yes, but far more of the diesel-produced particulates are carcinogenic.
Go look it up.
Uh what? That is 100% ass-backwards. Follow the link I provided to learn that you are 100% full of shit.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Lol, yeah that's why I drive one :D Nice try, utter fail. Besides, the current "diesel crisis" is not about particulate output, it's about NOx. Try doing your homework before calling people names :)
If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?
Wow I really want some of what you're smoking! :D
If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?
That's an awfully fancy way to say regenerative braking.
The health impact of particulates is far greater than that of NOx.