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Estimating Damages From the VW Emissions Scandal (acs.org)
ckwu writes: Last year, the news broke that in the U.S. almost 600,000 Volkswagen diesel vehicles, model years 2009 to 2015, contain software that altered engine performance and lowered emissions of toxic nitrogen oxides (NOx) during emissions tests but not during normal driving. A new study calculates the societal impact of this extra NOx: 46 excess expected deaths and $430 million in excess damages. U.S. regulators have filed a federal lawsuit against the automaker alleging violations of the Clean Air Act.
Since VW diesel is much more common in the EU, imagine what harm the German manufacturer caused there. Unfortunately I doubt the EU is going to stand up to the lying German corporations, since they fund a lot of the EU activities. So much for the myth of high quality German engineering and standards.
These figures remind me of software metrics. Management loves them and thinks it lets them put a dollar (and lives) figure on some random event, but in all reality they are meaningless, constructed from a formula pulled out of some overpaid consultant's arsehole.
Well, let's see... the damage includes all the tornado damage in Texas from December 26, the water crisis in Flint, starving kids in China, all those dying animals found on the ASPCA beg-a-thon infomercials, and Trump's hair. Might as well throw the housing market debacle in there as well.
They passed the test.
It's obvious the test is/was broken!
Rick B.
However, we have but to look to the GM side saddle fuel tanks, the Ford Pinto IED, and the Toyota floor mat auto pilot feature to realize the buying public has the attention span of a fruit fly.
So yes, a rather large fine is in order.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Since VW diesel is much more common in the EU, imagine what harm the German manufacturer caused there. {...} So much for the myth of high quality German engineering and standards.
Except that VW is far from the only existing car manufacturer.
And lots of them are NOT in the EU.
If the first caught lying happened to be Japanese, you would be saying "So much for the myth of Japanese technological innovation."
What, you expected VW to be the only one lying ? They just happen to have been the first caught doing it.
Car manufacturer and lying is a redundancy.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Here's the reason why I want a full refund. I traded in my 4x4 because my commute to work increased from 30 miles/day to 105 miles /day. A TDI was a perfect match for it. Now keep in mind a new TDI requires more maintenance but the high efficiency more than compensates for it. I purchased my TDi new on 5/18/2015 completely loaded with a 400w Fender Stereo, RNS510 NAV/head unit, dual climate control, power sunroof, black VTEX interior, halon projector headlights. averaging 62mpg for long road trips (300 miles), 56mpg moderate road trips (120 miles) and 48 mpg for my commute to work during rush hour. awesome.
I am not requesting a refund because I'm looking for a handout. I am because the fix will reduce efficiency and performance. I don't know if any of you test drove a new TDI, they perform well the way they are configured. The car is quick. Lots of torque. If the car didn't perform the way it did then I would not have bought it.
Once the fix is available I will be forced to comply and get it done or the DMV will not allow the car on the road. So.. I want a refund.
The German manufacture lied. I joined a group action lawsuit through the Pulanski Law firm. VW committed fraud. The dealership committed Negligent Misrepresentation of the vehicle. VW did not design the defeat device... Bosch wrote the code as a diagnostic feature and warned VW to not implement the feature.
A LNT emissions system that has a DPF is rated for 120k miles. A LNT system basically incinerates soot that is collected in the LNT to ash. Ash is stored and eventually the LNT system needs to be replaced. If the LNT system is on more often than it is currently (DPF regen averages 1 in every 600 miles) then the DPS would need to be replaced more often. A DPF is not cheap and it's a pain in the ass to replace since the floor pan needs to be dropped!
I think the government needs to stand in line. VW TDI owners are the ones that are screwed. We will be forced to comply with the recall once a fix is avaialble and the car will not be the same. This is one of the reasons why CARB and the EPA rejected the fix that was just submitted. The only way VW can recover is
if the current vehicles on the road are grandfathered in. I do not think they will since a 2.0 TDI emits more NOx than a Semi Truck. High NOx is a product of a lean diesel burn. A catalytic converter large enough to reduce NOx would be much larger than what the space available to install it.
Even the 2.0 TDI with addblue FAILS NOx emissions.
I'm not a friggen do gooder. Basically I didn't want to pay $600/month for fuel to commute to work. I went from 18mpg to 48mpg
I miss my Wragnler LOL and now I am working closer to home again. Hopefully I'll be able to free up the money I used to buy my TDI, get a refund and buy
a new Rubicon.
Did they just loo at the total cars and assume nobody would have bought that car? Or did they calculate the difference of what was advertised and what was reality?
In Belgium when asked, people did not really care and would buy the car anyway. Having a sunroof or not is more important.
That said: as they did pas the test, is not the test what has failed? It is like using a ping test to see if a website is up and running.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Look. Older vehicles are known polluters, but it is factored in that they'll eventually end up on the scrap heap. Of course, there are many nations that will be unable to immediately upgrade to the Western nations' standards of pollutant emissions, but again, it is factored in. We can't hold the poorest of us to the same standard.
The nations with the most advantages and resources have to take the lead in these reductions, and to be fair, we have probably been polluting the longest.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
There is a law that says you can't change the law in a way it adversely affects you restrospectively. That is the principle under which some old products are exempted from food labeling, ingredient disclosure requirements, and the rule under which coal power plants operate under older pollution standards. So the affected citizen can claim "the new law can not take away my right to sue VW retrospectively". But VW is safe there too. The claim has to be adjudicated by the Roberts court. There is no court in the world that is more friendly than Roberts' court for Corporations, who are people. So all bases are covered.
But still there are some appeals courts and district courts that show autonomy. The issue will soon be fixed by TPP. Corportate lawyers will form arbitration boards and hear complaints argued by other corporate lawyers, who would be sitting as arbitrators in other proceedings where these arbitrators will be pleading for their clients. It is all chummy-chummy clubby atmosphere with lots of give and take. The arbitrators give tax payer funds and the corporations take it.
So let us all look forward to this brave new world.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
It doesn't excuse VWs misdeeds, but it does make the "economic death penalty" that the EPA is holding over VWs head appear to serve a hidden agenda which has nothing to do with environmental protection, especially in a country that steers its populace to buy SUVs by giving them large tax credits.
You cannot sue over damages that might statistically occur to unknown individuals.
You can if you make the laws.
~Loyal
I aim to misbehave.
Older vehicles are known polluters, but it is factored in that they'll eventually end up on the scrap heap.
Scrap? In Argentina, we don't know about scrap. We fix everything and old things keep running forever. Take a look at the vehicles in our country... there are a lot of new ones, yes, but also there are a lot of old diesel trucks with a cloaking device (aka accelerator).
For comparison's sake, look at India where just one of the 40 year old buses spewing black smoke is emitting thousands times more pollutants than a VW car, and then think that India has millions of these vehicles on the road.
Have you ever been to India? I guess not, since you will not find any diesel buses in the capital, New Delhi. The last diesel bus in Delhi ran in 2002! All buses and all auto-rickshaws have been converted to CNG, and do not spit out black smoke.
There are clearly other factors at play there, since New Delhi is the city with the worst air pollution on earth (bypassing even Beijng), such as delivery trucks and industry.
You don't get it. VW commited Negligent Misrepresentation of the car.. took advantage of the free money for designing clean diesel.. sell the techology as clean diesel. I'm pissed because I will be forced to get my car to comply to EPA standards. This will result in lower performance and effeciency.
I would not have purchased a TDI if it didn't get crazy mileage or performed well. the new TDI is pretty quick. 0 - 80mph is great.
"the societal impact of this extra NOx: 46 excess expected deaths and $430 million in excess damages."
Let me guess - these numbers were output by a computer model and can't be verified (and, no, you cannot see the source code).
So was that just in New Delhi? The last time I was there (about 10 years ago) in Pune they were just getting started with the push to get the auto ricks running on CNG but it was just a suggestion.
Time to offend someone
They poisoned the water and for months, covered up the problem. But no one will be fined, no one will go to jail, and probably, no one will ever fix the issue. Meanwhile your taxes will then go to supporting kids with crippling brain damage as a result. So the governor could pocket a few bucks.
The point is: what VW did is no different from what anybody else is doing -- we're all screwing each other for a few bucks. Why is one bad while the other is not bad?
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
Nope. No one lies like VW has.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...
No. There are just :
- either those who got caught lying
- or those who didn't yet.
(And maybe a couple few exceptions in the middle who forgot that they could be lying).
"But they all do it" is not an excuse.
"But they all do it"
- DOES NOT mean that it should be considered normal
- DOES MEAN that you can't just single out the random one which by (lack of) chance happen to have been caught. You can't consider VW, or all german manufacturer worse than everybody else. They are not worse than everybody, but nearly everybody is just as bad as them.
Or in more practictal terms:
- As VW got caught red-handed, you shouldn't be just pointing fingers at them, and vilify them and consider them as the worst ever.
- You should instead go in panick mode and try to investigate ALL THE OTHERS AS FAST AS POSSIBLE, because it's almost a certainty they have been cheating (but just had the luck of not being discovered yet) and you need to find out fast, before they've had the time to cover their arses.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
46 excess expected deaths / 320,000,000 US population
in other words they guessed. The lack of error bars, the data points less than the noise floor, Report by a NGO nonprofit based on a paywalled paper, yup all of the warning signs are there.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Using this same logic I can create ridiculous "facts" too.
Consuming 6 liters of water in one hour can cause water intoxication and death.
Americans drink an average of 42 gallons of water per year.
42 gallons per year * 316 million people * 3.78 liters per gallon / 6 liters / 8760 hours in a year = 954,493 people killed by drinking water in the US * each year.
* (results do not account for water quality in Flint, MI)
CAFE standards have cost the lives of between 41,600 to 124,800 people. VW are strictly amateurs compared to the US government.
BULLSHIT.
Even scumbags should be considered innocent until proven guilty. That does not mean we should not keep a watchful eye on others who are likely to commit similar crimes, but we cannot presume their guilt.
Yup, I never say we should immediately punish every single car manufacturer out there, just because VW was found guilty.
That's why I said:
You should instead go in panick mode and try to investigate ALL THE OTHERS AS FAST AS POSSIBLE, because it's almost a certainty they have been cheating (but just had the luck of not being discovered yet) and you need to find out fast, before they've had the time to cover their arses.
I was speaking about investigating fast before the tracks are covered. Not about fining them without even having found out if they are actually guilty (they are very likely to be, but you need formal proof before sending fine).
Also, keep in mind that the should be considered innocent until proven guilty mainly concerns legal proceedings: you can't punish someone without having proper confirmation that they were guilty in the first place.
That has a lot less to do with dictating with general behaviour and prudence.
Speaking of sayings, there another one going : fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
As we have been repeatedly abused by the whole auto industry (car manufacturer, car dealers, auto repair shops, etc.), one would really need to be a complete fool not to have any suspicion about the current diesel pollution scandal.
It's one thing not to go in "lynch mob" mode and not to punish a person based only on hear-say and suspicion,
it's another thing not be a little bit prudent around confirmed repeat offenders.
And to go back to the reason I entered the thread:
- Could you all people please stop to single out VW as the only evil brand in the land of innocent white lambs ?
(when probably every single last one of them is probably as evil as them anyway)
(maybe except Tesla. Not that they are holier than anyone else. They just don't produce internal combustion engines, so they don't get the chance to lie about them).
- Or stop repeating that the reputation of superior german engineering is overrated now suddenly all just because VQ got caught doing what probably every thing else is doing ? (The fact that everybody is probably lying about pollution, doesn't change the tendency of germans usually being good at engineering designs). (Or in other words, German design wasn't wrongfully consider better because VW was lying. German design tend to be more often praised due to some technical merits and 1 single German company happen to have been caught cheating with pollution).
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
How "clean" were these engines compared to those of the previous model year?
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Why are we still discussing the misdoings of VW? The long haul tractor trailer based industry has barely any emissions restrictions to deal with. With thousands over thousands of trucks carrying goods across the country the question to discuss is how to drastically reduce this insanity by moving more freight to rail and putting clean engines into the trucks that are still needed. The few dirty Golfs are almost negligible compared to the poison and sud spewing out of the pipes of trucks every single minute. I guess it is much easier to keep beating up an easy target rather than start with something that would have real impact!
Wow! Awesome reply!
We went to trade in our 2009 Jetta gasoline car and found out that in the previous month KBB (Kelly Blue Book) http://www.kbb.com/ had dropped the trade in value from $6500 to $4000 in one month from this. It had nothing to do with diesel. I've personally lost $2500 to these assholes and will never buy another VW, let alone a diesel VW.