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Thirty Meter Telescope Likely Never Gets Built ... In Hawaii
An anonymous reader writes: After years of its backers of doing everything the state of Hawaii demanded in order to get permission to build the Thirty Meter Telescope, a state judge today ordered that the whole process should start over again. Since this order was instigated by the protesters, and that it appears the government favors those protesters, it appears that there is no chance TMT will ever get approval to build in Hawaii. We've been following the back and forth, back and forth story of this telescope for a while.
Hippie burnouts. Luddite native simpletons. There are already 4 observatories near the sacred summit of Mauna Kea. What harm would one more do? Whose state is it anyway?
an ill wind that blows no good
> it appears that there is no chance TMT will ever get approval to build in Hawaii.
Er, no. Sounds like you want failure to justify your political biases.
If the telescope doesn't get built it will be because the people who want to build it aren't willing to make the compromises that are required as part of a democratic process. Don't get sour grapes over the fact that a historically marginalized people are now getting their legitimate say in the process. The fact that they've been shut out for decades is the tragedy. They finally get a voice and you want to whine about it? Grow up.
First Post!
... that it likely never gets built, when the article says that officials have said that they'll continue the process? You're basically just changing actual reporting into an opinion piece, and presenting said opinion as if it's in the reporting.
It's times like this I wish I had a friend named 'The Professor'.
I consider Mauna Kea sacred ground that should be used only for telescopic exploration of the heavens. How can these heretics deny me my constitutional right of freedom of religion? Thomas Jefferson had a telescope, and it was obviously his intent when he wrote the First Amendment that people should be free to practice telescopy in sacred places such as Mauna Kea.
A tiny pressure group can stop virtually any big project, by filing court action after court action, delaying it until everyone gets tired of it and gives up. If they hadn't succeeded this time, they would have found some endangered flea, argued indefinitely until they won or lost, and lose, try again with a newly-invented religious icon.
It happens time and again. For example, the NFL (with regard to the Washington Redskins) is on record for saying "if one person objects, we will take action". Whether you think the word is offensive is beside the point. This sort of thinking allows the loudest complainers to exert veto power over virtually anything. So we get absolutely nowhere.
Stand against science.
The argument against the TMT is that it would be built on sacred ground, essentially for religious reasons. Isn't that an establishment of religion and, therefore, in violation of the first amendment?
Another victory of religion and superstition and the self interests of a few people who have appointed themselves as religious leaders over science and reason and public interest.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Science: 0
superstition: 1
greed: 4.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
Bernie Sanders believes in scientific progress. Meanwhile, Hillary believes http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/hillary-clinton-believe-candidate-stands-10-issues/.
Sounds a lot like what happened to the company that tried to run ferry service between the islands, the government supported the company and helped them start up, 2 years (and several lawsuits) later a judge shut them down because whatever law was passed by the government was against Hawaii's constitution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
In December 2008, environmental groups and the company returned to court for an appeal of the previous ruling. On March 16, 2009 the Hawaii Supreme Court ruled that allowing the Superferry to operate prior to completion of the environmental study was unconstitutional.[37] The company immediately suspended service and laid off its 236 employees.
Hundreds of jobs and hundreds of millions of dollars of investment lost.... and probably hundreds of millions of future investments lost because investors won't invest in infrastructure when they have no assurance that when the government says "we need this, do it", that they really mean it.
I actually had tickets to ride the boat, but the company had already shut down before my trip.
Seriously:
- fuck you and your ridiculous stone age religious sympathies. (BTW I'd say the same thing to Christians if they prevented building a telescope on a Chilean mountain because "Jesus' spirit lives here")
- fuck you and your revisionist history; if Hawaii was still its own country, you'd have your own 1%ers that would instead own that land, the normal people STILL wouldn't be allowed there, and the astronomers could build their telescope there simply by paying someone a hefty bribe with probably 10% the complications
- fuck you generally.
-Styopa
Thirty Meter Telescope Likely Never Gets Built ... In Hawaii
Yeesh, what tense is that?
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
If these guys wanted to build their telescope over Stone Henge in England. For whatever scientific reason. I would object very violently.
Call me a pagan.
On another tack, physicists and cosmologists have, in recent times, determined that the "universe" is way to big. And getting bigger at an accelerating rate. We are never getting off this planet to any other hospitable place. We, humans, are done.
Finding out more details of this inevitable end does not justify trampling on what we have here.
In the abstract, intellectual sense, you can be all for the rights of "marginalized peoples" and against the "the man".
But when you naively put theory into practice, you start to get some less-than-happy outcomes and get mugged by reality and start to get a visceral understanding of some facts, like
1. Turns out that the marginalized peoples are marginalized not because they're innocent noble pacifists more in tune with nature, but because they're superstitious anti-science savages who worship sacred rocks and can't be reasoned with.
2. The Man actually has a millenia-long tradition of scientific inquiry and exploration, which is how you get to have a roof over your head, food on the table, indoor plumbing, electric lights, and a lifespan longer than 30.
3. Fighting for Justice (TM) is all well and good. But when we're sitting pretty in the civilized world, there really isn't much real injustice to fight against. So like a child raised in a sterile environment only to develop allergies to everything, a society taught to attack "injustice" will turn its energies against itself, and superstition and paganism can trump science.
4. Freedom of religion is all well and good, but we in the west tend to have more personal and private religions, where my faith doesn't place any demands on your lifestyle. The savages, on the other hand, tend to have communal 'religions' with sacrifices to pagan idols in the extreme case, and elaborate restrictions on the freedom of their inherents in the most charitable interpretation. One is compatible with capital-f Freedom, one is not. Our culture is about freedom, theirs isn't. You can't compromise between the two.
This was actually the result of a proxy fight.
It was a proxy for the ke ea Hawai‘i movement, which is a movement that is demanding some form of sovereignty for Hawaii. they have been around forever, and they make themselves a pain in the ass wherever they can in order to attempt to draw media attention to their cause.
Their favorite hobby horses are self-determination and self-governance, for Hawaii as an independent nation, or for people of native Hawaiian ancestry to obtain "tribal sovereignty" similar to the relationship with Native Americans, for Native Hawaiians.
They generally don't care about "sacred spots" unless caring about them publicly will get major headlines.
Alphabetically, the organizations involved include: ALOHA, Hawaiian Kingdom, Hawaiian Kingdom Government, Ka Lhui, Ka Pkaukau, Mauna Kea Anaina Hou, Nation of Hawai'i, Nou Ke Akua Ke Aupuni O Hawaii, Poka Laenui, and Protect Kahoolawe Ohana (PKO).
Frankly, I'm surprised there is not a "Bring Queen Lili'uokalani Back From The Dead Society". They are unhappy with the 1893 U.S. Marine invasion that got rid of the hereditary monarchy, and they are unhappy with the U.S. annexation of 1898.
We know who vigorously supports eminent domain for public projects...
The retarded states of America.
As other will do the science we do not.
This shows how low the pecking order of science in society really is.
Mala tempora.
I have mixed feelings on this after spending 10 years on several Hawaiian islands. Hawaiians have a deep reverence and connection to the land which is one thing they ABSOLUTELY get right. I'm not sure where the sweet spot is w/r/t progress / preserving the land, but categorically reducing the Hawaiians through name calling is not fair, and quite naive in my book, when you haven't lived there to fully grok where many of them are coming from.
Anti-science is winning, or hasn't anyone noticed.
The lesson was this:
Sure we're all supposed to share resources and we all support Bernie Sanders taking from people and giving to others. But if there's a native group involved, then they have an absolute right to completely control any resource, for any reason. Even if the resource is infinitely valuable, and not sharing it will result in poverty and starvation for billions of people. The natives can't even be asked to talk about sharing it; their rights are supreme because they have the righteous skin color.
I consider Mauna Kea sacred ground that should be used only for telescopic exploration of the heavens. How can these heretics deny me my constitutional right of freedom of religion?
It doesn't matter. You don't have the righteous skin color, nor the righteous cultural origins. So, as far as the left is considered, you can fuck off.
Angry anti-religious zealots abound here and have since the beginning.
The new TPP treaty lets foreign corporations override local laws, if money is at stake. I'm sure we can find some excuse to make a claim, and get the telescope built.
It seems like easter Island would be a great spot as there is no light pollution to worry about and all that land with nobody on it for any size telescope.
It seems odd to me that people are protesting against something being built somewhere, where they never actually go. I've never been to Hawaii, and some might argue that I have no voice in the argument, having never gone there and visited myself. But I could grab hold of that argument and ask "how many protesters have visited the site of the telescope?" How many would even know if a telescope were built there or not. Could you actually even see it from where you live? Do you have a special set of snow tracks that you want preserved (I've seen pictures of where they want to build the telescope, its covered by snow all year and very cold). So the argument then is: who is actually being harmed, except the idea that someone thought that a place was pristine and they didn't want anyone setting foot on it or something, but its all philosophical. Perhaps a compromise, like "don't step foot on my pristine beach or swim in my pristine water and I won't build on your pristine mountain. If you break the deal, so do I" Its not even that any protester will be out-of-pocket or suffering illness or lose in any way their ability to go about their day-to-day lives. Its all just "the idea of the thing". And in that regard, its all bat crap crazy. Its not even a real thing, its just an idea of a thing. Its virtual.
Sad but not unexpected to see posters slathering on ad hominem attacks rather than addressing the issues. The subtext of most of the messages here today is unmistakable: the nerve of these savages.
I majored in science at university. I read most of the technical books I was supposed to read. I quit religion as soon as I could get away from it. I can clearly see the progress for humanity fostered by reason, empiricism, and applied technology. But.
When I look at what has been done to this world in the previous century-and-a-half, I accept my share of responsibility for what we've done to this incredible, and only, spaceship we have. Here in the US, from the genocides to the atom-bomb to the water in Flint, it's a cornucopia of disasters. We all know the list. And yet, when someone suggests that we step away from the course we've taken, and seriously consider engaging with some traditional notions of sane, caring, thoughtful stewardship, some of us choose to stomp our feet and demand that the Luddites be pushed aside, that their ideas are laughable, that their "feelings" are just manipulation.
Gentlemen (I assert that most of you are), your exhibition of foot-stomping here today reminds me of Sagan attacking Velikovsky. Not of his apology for attempting to crush another POV without regard for its merits.
"You must try to forget all you have learned. You must begin to dream." -- Sherwood Anderson
Political correctness was invented by the communists to defeat capitalism and democracy without a war they couldn't win. Until you're willing to fight them facing this reality, they will win.
13 year Hawaii resident, lacking mod points, so chiming in to say that tlambert hit the nail on the head. The sovereignty and similar aligned organizations have little political power, other than what they can exercise in the state courts.
I used to argue with sovereignty advocates (via Maui News letters to editor) that if they wanted to make some real headway, they should consider forming a party and contesting elective office like the various Puerto Rican independentistas, rather than expending all of their energies in front of judges.
But, those at the pointy end of the Hawaii movements seem to labor under the delusion that a tribunal in The Hague or D.C. can and will separate Hawaii from the remainder of the Union by the stroke of a pen, so back to court we go...
Luke, help me take this mask off
Build the damn telescope, but instead of a typical telescope looking building to house it, carve it into the shape of a giant Tiki Fire God head who shoots flames from his nose when the scope isn't actually in use.
Watch how fast that thing gets built.
For every person who blocked the construction of the telescope: Then to not be total disgusting fucking hypocrites:
When you have a serious injury and are in need of medical support, please do you partake of the services of a trauma center and the beneficial modern technology which made it possible.
When your loved ones are suffering and dying from some fatal disease, do you partake of advanced medications which could potentially cure them or extend their lives.
Do not drive a fucking car, use a computer, take an airplane, or utilize any other aspect of modern technology.
Because otherwise you are disgusting, full-of-shit hypocrites who deserve to rot.
in a decade of reading slashdot.
Astronomer here, I live and work on the Big Island. You are completely wrong to assume this means the end of TMT in Hawaii, it was pretty much what was expected to happen after the state supreme court vacated the permit last December. While the new permitting process is going to take more time (months or years, nobody knows for sure), TMT seem to be taking their time deciding on their next step and are still hoping to continue as planned. I have heard nothing that would suggest otherwise. Please understand a big project like that doesn't just up and leave after having so much invested. Supporters of the TMT here (of which there are plenty) are still hoping a new, watertight permit will come out of all this. Frankly, we're more shocked by the recent news about another batch of anti-TMT protesters being acquitted because they claimed to have "prevented a greater harm from occurring". But then again, this is Hawaii, and that's how things work here.
Since there seems to be a lot of criticism of religion here, I'd like to take a moment to mention that the Catholic Church has an observatory in the Vatican. So much for superstition winning out.
The problem isn't religion or science. The problem is a group of people who dislike another group of people and will pervert the justice system to get what the want. In this case, they're hiding behind religion. You see the same thing with Black Live Matter. They're using race relations (bad race relations) to get back at whitey. Both depend heavily on guilt to get their way. Neither is sincere about their stated objectives. Our justice system has devolved into ab "ends justifies the means" system where anyone takes a noble cause and perverts it to fit their agenda. Pretty sad.
These green's used a lack of due process to pause the project today.
But I think they have no respect for the privilege, and so will ultimately loose.
Due process is there so that everybody's ideas can be heard and considered and then a decision rendered.
As the telescope folks learned, it is not to be ignored without dotting every 'i' and crossing every 't'.
What the greens need to learn is that it is not there as a vehicle for a never-ending stream of objections.
All sides need a chance to present their cases and let the facts and law drive the conclusion.
This should at least include these greens, the rest of the native population, and the scientists (Maybe history, ecology, and astronomy).
Once this is done these folks should not be able to come back to the due process well.
From where things are today, it should be relatively easy to backup to where things went wrong and proceed.
Most of the leg work has presumably been done.
Democracy it there to partly to prevent the majority from overrunning a minority.
But the reverse should be true as well.
Those who install telescopes out of view of inhabited areas generally don't throw large sums of money at politicians. Those who build cell towers near inhabitants generally do, if needed, and generally get their way. Those who wish to strip coal from the tops of mountains generally do as well, and generally get their way. See a pattern?
Just because the process for permitting the TMT goes back to court doesn't mean it won't get built. Hale started the process of building the 200 in. telescope at Mt. Palomar in the mid 1920's; it didn't see first light until 1949 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hale_Telescope). The building of a space-based telescope - what became the Hubble - also started decades earlier.
Yes, the USA abandons some projects (i.s., the SSC, or "Desertron" / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_Super_Collider), so it is still possible the TMT won't be built at all. But I would prefer to believe that eventually common sense will win out - that building on a site with existing telescopes with lots of associated existing infrastructure etc. would be better than picking a net new site somewhere else.
While those that took all this to court won this round, this kind of project ALWAYS takes a while; now it may just take longer.
JAAC
PS - And remember / the SSC site is still "available". Eventually a replacement for the LHC will be needed. If building the CERN device was successful in part because of the benefit of using existing tunnels, etc. then perhaps the tunnels in Texas can generate the same kind of benefits in about 10 years or so.
"You are terrified someone will steal your software if you publish the source code." - by Coren22 (1625475)
WTF? A respected other in security & competent coder has OK'd it as clean/safe!
I don't give it away to everyone W/ GOOD REASON (Google's mistake w/ CHROME = prime example) -> http://it.slashdot.org/story/1...
---
"You have yet to address the issue of name resolution performance of anything not found in your hosts file. This is a serious issue when the hosts file is so large" - by Coren22 (1625475)
By placing users FAVORITE SITES where they spend 95++% of their time online @ TOP of hosts files cached in RAM gets them to sites FASTER & MORE RELIABLY than a more-than-potentially REDIRECT POISONED DNS SERVER (99.999% of ISP DNS aren't patched vs. the kaminsky flaw, stupid).
---
"DNS outperforms your hosts file solution several fold" - by Coren22 (1625475)
No it doesn't (see using hardcoded favorites above) - & DNS outperforms hosts in GOING DOWN (does a lot) OR poisoning users via redirect poisonings (DNS amp attacks is another).
---
"so why not just run your own DNS server? Oh, resources eh?" - by Coren22 (1625475)
More resource consumption + moving parts complexity + POWER USE doesn't = a GOOD solution vs. hosts by using redirect poisoning/DNS amp attack exploitable DNS w/ only a few systems @ home.
---
"But you have no problem running 100k copies of the hosts file in a domain" - by Coren22 (1625475)
It works easily migrated by central admins via scripts or chronjobs/scheduled tasks with less moving parts complexity, room for exploit & breakdown, OR power usage.
---
"You have yet to submit to a code review from anyone but your friend. No, I don't trust that he has thoroughly assessed your software." - by Coren22 (1625475)
I have to a seasoned security pro AND competent coder himself (unlike you).
---
"you are stealing other people's work in your code" - by Coren22 (1625475)
I don't "steal" (you project YOU DO)!
APK
P.S.=> You FAIL, MENIAL.. apk
"the secretary at MalwareBytes took a look at his source code and said it looked all good to them" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
My code went thru verification by Mr. Steven Burn of Malwarebytes' hpHosts
hpHosts Site Admin Mr. Steven Burn quoted:
"I've been asked to further clarify so for the record yes I've seen the code, and yes, it is safe."
FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi...
(On my latest 9.0++ code engine above & from past versions -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... )
A competent coder & BEST security researcher I know of FROM THE BEST ANTIMALWARE THERE IS http://www.av-test.org/en/news...
NOT a secretary!
I don't give away work to be stolen OR misused like GOOGLE CHROME http://it.slashdot.org/story/1...
---
"won't demonstrate security of his product be exposing the source" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Bullshit: 62 reputable sources + /. users say different:
Safe by 57 antivirus programs in 64-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
+
the 32-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
&
Per VirScan (installer too)-> http://f.virscan.org/APKHostsF...
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl... & MalwareBytes = BEST antivirus per this VERY recent testing of them all http://www.av-test.org/en/news...
APK
P.S.=> Eat your words, scumbag:
Tell us about AD + DNS too while you're @ it & how you said I said not to run DNS when I use it myself & said to NOT use external to network DNS with AD http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
OR
About how my program NEEDS admin privelege to update too (& it doesn't http://slashdot.org/comments.p... )
LOL... fool - 'eat your words' on ALL those accounts chump!
... apk
"You are terrified someone will steal your software if you publish the source code." - by Coren22 (1625475)
WTF? A respected other in security & competent coder has OK'd it as clean/safe!
I don't give it away to everyone W/ GOOD REASON (Google's mistake w/ CHROME = prime example) -> http://it.slashdot.org/story/1...
---
"You have yet to address the issue of name resolution performance of anything not found in your hosts file. This is a serious issue when the hosts file is so large" - by Coren22 (1625475)
By placing users FAVORITE SITES where they spend 95++% of their time online @ TOP of hosts files cached in RAM gets them to sites FASTER & MORE RELIABLY than a more-than-potentially REDIRECT POISONED DNS SERVER (99.999% of ISP DNS aren't patched vs. the kaminsky flaw, stupid).
---
"DNS outperforms your hosts file solution several fold" - by Coren22 (1625475)
No it doesn't (see using hardcoded favorites above) - & DNS outperforms hosts in GOING DOWN (does a lot) OR poisoning users via redirect poisonings (DNS amp attacks is another).
---
"so why not just run your own DNS server? Oh, resources eh?" - by Coren22 (1625475)
More resource consumption + moving parts complexity + POWER USE doesn't = a GOOD solution vs. hosts by using redirect poisoning/DNS amp attack exploitable DNS w/ only a few systems @ home.
---
"But you have no problem running 100k copies of the hosts file in a domain" - by Coren22 (1625475)
It works easily migrated by central admins via scripts or chronjobs/scheduled tasks with less moving parts complexity, room for exploit & breakdown, OR power usage.
---
"You have yet to submit to a code review from anyone but your friend. No, I don't trust that he has thoroughly assessed your software." - by Coren22 (1625475)
I have to a seasoned security pro AND competent coder himself (unlike you).
---
"you are stealing other people's work in your code" - by Coren22 (1625475)
I don't "steal" (you project YOU DO)!
APK
P.S.=> You FAIL, MENIAL.. apk
"the secretary at MalwareBytes took a look at his source code and said it looked all good to them" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
My code went thru verification by Mr. Steven Burn of Malwarebytes' hpHosts
hpHosts Site Admin Mr. Steven Burn quoted:
"I've been asked to further clarify so for the record yes I've seen the code, and yes, it is safe."
FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi...
(On my latest 9.0++ code engine above & from past versions -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... )
A competent coder & BEST security researcher I know of FROM THE BEST ANTIMALWARE THERE IS http://www.av-test.org/en/news...
NOT a secretary!
I don't give away work to be stolen OR misused like GOOGLE CHROME http://it.slashdot.org/story/1...
---
"won't demonstrate security of his product be exposing the source" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Bullshit: 62 reputable sources + /. users say different:
Safe by 57 antivirus programs in 64-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
+
the 32-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
&
Per VirScan (installer too)-> http://f.virscan.org/APKHostsF...
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl... & MalwareBytes = BEST antivirus per this VERY recent testing of them all http://www.av-test.org/en/news...
APK
P.S.=> Eat your words, scumbag:
Tell us about AD + DNS too while you're @ it & how you said I said not to run DNS when I use it myself & said to NOT use external to network DNS with AD http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
OR
About how my program NEEDS admin privelege to update too (& it doesn't http://slashdot.org/comments.p... )
LOL... fool - 'eat your words' on ALL those accounts chump!
... apk
The European EELT will cover the southern hemisphere. So it is logical the TMT people want to build their instrument in the northern one.
Except there are no that many sites. You need a calm and clean laminar atmosphere and a high altitude. Sites facing an ocean to the west are good because it is where the dominant winds come from. No hills or mountains there to create turbulences.
South California is in Mexico, a moderately stable country plagued by banditry and mafias. Some people have suggested Morocco for European scopes but the country isn't very secure either. The Tibetan plateau is behind mountains which generate turbulences. The Canary Islands are nice, but not as nice as Hawaii in term of altitude and dryness of air.