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Last January Was the Hottest Global Temperature Anomaly In Recorded History

merbs writes: NASA has released its global temperature data for January 2016, and, once again, the record for the hottest month in recorded history has been shattered. At a time when these kinds of records are broken with some regularity, it takes a particularly scorching month to raise eyebrows in the climate science community. It has to be the hottest hottest month by a pretty hot margin. Sure enough, last January did the trick: It was 1.13 C warmer than the global average of 1951-1980 (the benchmark NASA uses to measure warming trends)—in other words, a full 2F warmer than pre-1980 levels.

393 comments

  1. Michigan..... by beheaderaswp · · Score: 4, Funny

    Here in Michigan- it's been a fine spring so far!

    --
    Another consultant who stuck it out.

    "We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx..."
    1. Re:Michigan..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Just don't drink the water!

    2. Re:Michigan..... by Molt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To be fair Flint used to have people, but then they drank the water.

      --
      404 Not Found: No such file or resource as '.sig'
    3. Re:Michigan..... by vel-ex-tech · · Score: 2

      Well, it was a nice spring, but it seems to have given summer and fall a miss and gone straight on to winter again!

    4. Re:Michigan..... by raind · · Score: 1

      Just don't drive on the water, though many do - every year something happens (like six cars parked next to each other go in the drink)...especially this "winter" though we have had some cold spells.

      --
      Get up!
    5. Re:Michigan..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And don't breathe the air!

      Pollution! Pollution! They got smog and sewage and mud! Turn on your tap, and get hot and cold running crud.

    6. Re:Michigan..... by dunkelfalke · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Here in the western part of Germany we had no winter for at least three consecutive years. We had just a late autumn going over to a very early spring. In fact, we had such a warm december (up to +15C) that blackbirds started to breed and the offspring was quickly killed by the lack of suitable food in january.

      I have several pairs of cross country skis in the cellar that haven't seen snow for years even though I live in the mountains. I didn't even have to change my bicycle tyres to studded tyres this winter and last two winters I had to change tyres only for two days or so.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    7. Re: Michigan..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amazing how you have that weather there when we have to go back more than a century ago to get colder temperatures in the New England states. Dangerously cold weather so bad that people freeze to death. Windnchills more than -30 below 0 fehrenheit. Maybe I can believe in global warming when it stopped snowing in northern Florida of all places

    8. Re:Michigan..... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      I spy with my little eyes, a Dr. Demento fan.

      You can use the latest toothpaste, and then rinse your mouth with industrial waste.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    9. Re: Michigan..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Effectively, you're talking about weather, he's talking about climate. Of course when the gulf stream pulls down northerly winds it gets cold, but that's just weather, it isn't climate.

    10. Re:Michigan..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Up to 15C? Shit Adolf, here in SoCal I go to the beach in December because it's always summer. We might hit 15C in the dead of the night during the "winter" months, but the days are always above 24C. Deutschland sounds like a miserably cold place. Plus you gotta deal with all of that censorship crap there.

    11. Re: Michigan..... by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      That sounds funny because Hitler once argued that his men didn't need winter gear in Russia because he was still wearing shorts I'm the German winter.

      Of course, that did nothing to stop the cold from literally freezing his soldiers' feet and eyelids off.

    12. Re: Michigan..... by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      I'm = in

    13. Re:Michigan..... by H0p313ss · · Score: 1

      If you think 15C is miserable then you should never come to Canada, we hit -30 over the weekend in the capital and we're having a warm winter.

      --
      XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
    14. Re: Michigan..... by NeoMorphy · · Score: 1

      Amazing how you have that weather there when we have to go back more than a century ago to get colder temperatures in the New England states. Dangerously cold weather so bad that people freeze to death. Windnchills more than -30 below 0 fehrenheit. Maybe I can believe in global warming when it stopped snowing in northern Florida of all places

      It's "Global Climate Change", not "New England Weather Gets Warmer Every Single Day". It's not as if the daily temperature is based solely on how much sunlight we are getting. There are "Cold Fronts"/"Warm Fronts"/"Nor'Easters"/"Gulf Stream(thermohaline circulation)"/"El Nino/La Nina"/"Jet Stream"/etc, some places will be warmer and some will be cooler, but the average is warmer. One person running around his yard with a thermometer is not going to disprove/prove "Global Climate Change".

      This past winter has been very mild for New England. You had to wait until a couple of weeks ago to complain about cold weather. The first 10 days of December averaged 50 degrees high temperature, and today it's supposed to reach 54, otoh yesterday was freaking cold!. If you've been here long enough you would know that this past winter was very mild. Again, this past winter in New England is not a direct relation to "Global Climate Change", that was probably one of many factors like "El Nino". You would have to look at the entire planet to understand the impact. To make a judgement based on one or two regions is as ridiculous as trying to extract a model of the entire universe by studying it's effect on a piece of fairy cake.

    15. Re:Michigan..... by turkeyfish · · Score: 1

      Hate to break it to you, but the Flint River drainage encompasses more than 2% of Michigan. In time, the groundwater of a lot of Michigan is going to be as toxic as that in Flint. But don't worry, the State of Michigan with the help of Rick Snyder and the GOP legislature is moving to change the reporting requirements for well water so not to worry you should you look at the tests.

    16. Re: Michigan..... by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      What exactly is your point? You don't realise that Germany is on about the same latitude as Canada?

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    17. Re: Michigan..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a liberal nut spewing nonsense

    18. Re: Michigan..... by finlan · · Score: 1

      What censorship? It's about 1000000 times more open than the US.

    19. Re: Michigan..... by NetNed · · Score: 1

      Oh no, you are going to get the "weather is not the climate, but we will claim that the extreme weather that always has happened is a result of climate change". If you think about the double talk too much it will make your head hurt. That's why we have the claims already going month by month now. Money must be an issue. But yeah, northern Florida snow gets skipped right over for the "It's GLOBAL, not LOCAL" delusions.

    20. Re: Michigan..... by NetNed · · Score: 1

      Is that like realizing that Germany has never had a climate similar to Canada also?

    21. Re:Michigan..... by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      Here in Michigan- it's been a fine spring so far!

      In Montreal, winter arrived two weeks later than the year to year arrivals of 50 years ago. Same lateness as last year. We used to get two to 3 weeks of -20C (0F-5F) from the beginning starting end December until around around Feb 20. No more. Ski hills are closed, This past January has been the warmest ever. My home heating bill is half the cost for the same period last year and lower than it was 8 years ago.

      Yes, its getting warmer every year.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    22. Re:Michigan..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm in Phoenix. We had a 'cold' winter compared to Phoenix standards, most likely to due to El Nino. Then , this month, out of no where, we became spring. Record highs for a week. Its now going to reach 91, beating the _earliest_ 90+ degree day recorded in Phoenix. Average high is 72.

    23. Re:Michigan..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here in SoCal, it's been a fine Summer so far....

      Hold it, wait, isn't it still February?

    24. Re:Michigan..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OMG!!! We are all fucked. Don't you understand? People will get warm and stuff...

    25. Re: Michigan..... by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      to stop the cold from literally freezing his soldiers' feet and eyelids off.

      That doesn't mean what you think it means.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    26. Re: Michigan..... by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      In fact it had. Frankfurt am Main and Toronto had a very similar climate in 1850.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    27. Re:Michigan..... by Ann+O'Nymous-Coward · · Score: 1

      Tom Lehrer actually :)

      "The breakfast garbage you throw into the Bay, they drink for lunch in San Jose!"

    28. Re: Michigan..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...bleated a conservetard.

    29. Re:Michigan..... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Dr. Demento - DJ that did the Dr. Demonto Show, which sometimes plays that song and many others of a similar bent. It's the typical route to learn of Lehrer though not so much these days as I don't think it's syndicated any more. However, you can get them online and he's still continuing to put his shows together. He gave Weird Al his start.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  2. YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by chrism238 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How many near consecutive broken records does it take for weather extremes to no longer be called 'anomalies'?

    1. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by beheaderaswp · · Score: 5, Funny

      For rational people? Or the other kind?

      --
      Another consultant who stuck it out.

      "We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx..."
    2. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It will take future analysis and records. If the trends continue, it's not an anomaly. If the temperature trends drop, then we know it was a temporary blip in the record. Only time will really tell.

      Geologically speaking, we've only been recording temperatures for an infinitesimally small amount of time. Moreover, there's obviously no experimental control possible - i.e., we can't tell what the temperature would be without humans with any certainty - it's all theoretical models that are describing the trends we're seeing.

      I'm not saying the models are necessarily incorrect. I'm just pointing out that they are, in fact, only predictions and models. The only way to judge their validity is to measure their ability to predict trends over time.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    3. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by thesupraman · · Score: 0, Troll

      Funny how when its extra cold (snow storms, record cold winters, etc) all we hear is 'weather is not climate'.
      However when its extra hot, is seems weather is climate?

      Just to avoid the 'but that doesnt happen!' here we have one:
      http://drsircus.com/world-news/february-2015-coldest-month-in-history/

      Not arguing a side here, just pointing out one of many many obvious logical faults both sides seem to have.

      It astounds me how high these extremes at both ends of this argument have climbed up their pedestals.

    4. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by russotto · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "Anomaly" in this case is a technical term meaning deviation from the reference value.

      And everyone warmist and denialist knows this one is due to El Nino, but that won't stop the warmists from crowing over it.

    5. Re: YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Fwipp · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Global temperature isn't weather. Regional temperature is.

    6. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Funny how when its extra cold (snow storms, record cold winters, etc) all we hear is 'weather is not climate'.
      However when its extra hot, is seems weather is climate?

      No.

      One exceptionally warm month, or even one warm winter, is not climate. (Nor one exceptionally cold one). Climate is long term,.

      What is noteworthy is how frequently records are being set. If the temperatures were random, and not rising, you would expect records to be set only on rare occasions.

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    7. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't believe it really has to do with climate scientists. Their descriptions consistently speak of increasing extremes, and a shifting of climates to from one location to another. I think the focus on heat is more of a media issue. The media for presumably historical reasons is stuck on the "global warming" notion and has a bias towards reporting stories about heat extremes, not cold extremes, not wet extremes, though sometimes dry extremes.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    8. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by pr0fessor · · Score: 0

      Quite a few when record keeping sucks... In 1978 we had an unusually warm winter and on Christmas went swimming at a local lake... this isn't recorded because they don't keep records from my little town just more populated areas miles away who although had a warm winters they weren't record breaking or enjoying the 80 degree weather we did. Today they keep records for the area but have substituted the prior records from over a 120 miles away for the previous years.

    9. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually, Antarctica just hit a new temperature record last year:
      http://news.nationalgeographic...

      But, as the climateologist do repeatedly note, weather is not climate.

    10. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      "For rational people or the other kind?"

      Rational people I'm assuming are the ones who can keep the argument straight.

      And the argument is about *causality* not some hilariously non-specific concept called "climate change".

      The Earth's temperature has never not been changing. With or without mankind it's going to get much, much hotter and much, much colder over the next 5 billion years. And it's going to happen both gradually and occasionally very suddenly. Because that's how Earth works.

      I for one don't think we should attempt to control nature. Or save beachfront real restate investors, for that matter.

      Carry on.

    11. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Funny

      Neither do I. I just want to have the right to shoot you when you try to escape the rising water levels by climbing up onto my hill.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    12. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by tentenone · · Score: 2

      I for one don't think we should attempt to control nature.

      What about air conditioning and heating, or purifying water?

    13. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by tentenone · · Score: 1

      I don't think there's been any major record breaking cold extremes recently, has there?

    14. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by mbkennel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      | The only way to judge their validity is to measure their ability to predict trends over time.

      And many other behaviors, and judge the validity by examining the quality of the physics implemented in them.

      There are effects which are directly a result of the underlying proposed mechanism (increased greenhouse gases), such as polar regions warming more than equatorial regions, night warming more than day, stratospheric cooling and distinguish from many other possible mechanisms.

      These signatures have been observed and are consistent with mainstream scientific climatological understanding.

      It's not just a matter of some particular models predicting one time series or not; it's about validating physics.

      And understanding physics is the historically most successful way to predict hypothesized results of physical systems.

    15. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Layzej · · Score: 5, Informative

      Part of the bias towards reporting heat records vs cold records is due to the fact that we haven't had any record cold months in over a century. The last time we had a record for the coldest month in recorded history was 1893 The last time we had a "warmest month in recorded history" was December. The prior record was October.

    16. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Sique · · Score: 4, Insightful
      We are controlling Nature. All the time. That's the whole point of being a planning, rationale being. We control the amount of rain water that hits our skin by staying indoors, or carrying an umbrella. We control the temperature of our environment by heating and air conditioning. We control the surface properties of the ground by laying tarmac along our often traveled paths. We control the species of plants growing around us by sowing, planting and weeding. We control the animals living near us by breeding them. As apes coming from a steppe landscape with sparse trees, we convert about any landscape we don't need for buildings, structures and food into a steppe landscape with sparse trees, and we call them parks, gardens and golf courses. We even control the functioning of our bodies by regular exercise and medicine.

      What the whole discussion of anthropogenic climate change is about is thinking about the less immediate effects of our ways to control Nature. How we control Nature does not average out in the end, on the whole our changes shift Nature into a less diverse, hotter and less stable state.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    17. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Namarrgon · · Score: 5, Interesting

      And everyone warmist knew that the so-called "pause" was due to a series of mild La Niñas following the extra-strong El Niño in 1998, but that didn't stop the denialists crowing over it.

      Every record-breaking hottest year/month/whatever will be during a strong El Niño; that's obvious, as that's the hottest point in the ENSO cycle. What's important is that this El Niño-boosted January was hotter than every other El Niño-boosted January we've ever seen. Again.

      We've had so many hottest-ever records recently that people are apparently getting blasé about them. Reminder: in the absence of a rising trend, record-breaking temperatures become steadily less common - each new record would require an ever-more unlikely confluence of factors to boost temperatures still higher than the last record.

      A constant stream of highest-yet record temperatures is more than just weather; it's a rising trend.

      --
      Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
    18. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by HiThere · · Score: 1

      I thought the east cost had some record cold last December, or possibly early January.

      I know that last week I was thinking what a beautiful spring day it was, but today it felt more like summer. I *do* acknowledge that this is weather rather than climate, but it's quite unusual weather. And climate is composed of the sum of lots of weather.

      P.S.: I've got to disagree with the above poster who called global weather climate. Climate isn't specifically global, but it is specifically a long term average...and what is long term can vary depending on lots of different things, including the point you're trying to make. Some words don't really have sharp boundaries around their definitions. But the climate of an area is the moving average of the weather in that area. To be sensible on planet Earth you need to compare days at the same time of year, of course. But one can reasonably talk about the climate of an area, which can be larger or smaller. Or even about the emotional climate. The meaning of the term is about the same.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    19. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want to talk about how to stop Earth's natural macro climatic shifts, then let's have that discussion.

      Because NOBODY is even trying to have that discussion.

    20. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by HiThere · · Score: 1

      It is probably as early and as extreme as it is due to El NiÅo, but it's a lot warmer a lot earlier than it was during the last strong El NiÅo. Perhaps it's just that this one's stronger, but that isn't entirely happenstance (only partially).

      Personally, I tend to blame it on the Arctic sea ice nearly disappearing last summer, so this winter it didn't make the ocean current flowing past it as cold as it usually does...but this is just my personal speculation, and I haven't run it past any expert for a critique. To me, however, it seems quite plausible.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    21. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Layzej · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I for one don't think we should attempt to control nature.

      What about air conditioning and heating, or purifying water?

      Or for that matter, burning fossil fuels...

    22. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny how when its extra cold (snow storms, record cold winters, etc) all we hear is 'weather is not climate'.

      Actually, all I hear is that GLOBAL WARMING IS A FRAUD AND HERE IS A SNOWBALL TO PROVE IT.

      Maybe you just have to listen to different people.

      Meanwhile, they were silent last month when it WAS abnormally warm around here.

    23. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your examples are silly. That is not the same as controlling nature at all.

    24. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by HiThere · · Score: 1

      The last time I checked we could be certain that most of the models were incorrect, because they differed significantly in their predictions. Of course, they tended to predict the same general class of thing. I don't think any predicted that there would be increased CO2 and decreased global warming.

      This is why the actual predictions that got published tended to be an average of an ensemble of predictions. And it was "pretty good, but sure not perfect". Unfortunately, when the average is better than any of the predictions it's not quite clear how to fix things.

      IIUC the current way to "validate" a model is to feed in some known past data set and see how well it predicts what actually happened next. None of them are all that good. Some people believe that it's because they need to take more local effects into consideration, which means smaller cells, which does horrible things to the amount of computer cycles required. It's too bad this seems such a plausible explanation...or perhaps it a good thing, as long as faster computers keep coming along. But weather models already run on the largest super computer they have access to.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    25. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Obfuscant · · Score: 0

      We are controlling Nature. All the time. That's the whole point of being a planning, rationale being. We control the amount of rain water that hits our skin by staying indoors

      That is not controlling "nature", that is controlling our individual environment.

      The difference is like when your Mother tells you to stop turning the air conditioning in the basement down below 72, and when she yells at you to close the damn door because "we aren't air conditioning the entire neighborhood".

    26. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Ost99 · · Score: 1

      True.
      And if the temperatures were random, you'd see roughly the same amount of broken high- and low- records. We're not.

      --
      ---- Sig. gone.
    27. Re: YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Bartles · · Score: 2

      Yeah, 18 years is too short. But the 29 years used as the baseline is plenty long enough. It's funny. Climatologists claim to have an excellent record stretching thousands of year. Why are we using 29 years as a baseline?

    28. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by raind · · Score: 1

      I think the idea is not to be a Master of Nature, but a Master in Nature.

      --
      Get up!
    29. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering the records are extremely limited and purposefully exclude the temperature extremes of the 90s because it makes it easier for the arrogant AGW nutjobs to push their agenda without evidence, I wouldn't put much faith in this "report".

    30. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2

      How many near consecutive broken records does it take for weather extremes to no longer be called 'anomalies'?

      Because we live in a country where people get their weather education from politicians and a Groundhog in Punxatawny PA, and not from scientists.

      Even when it' is found out that a leading oil company kew and lied about AGW decades ago - they still cling to their denialism.. So it ain't gonna happen.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    31. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      So you're willing to shoot someone casually strolling by? Or do you believe films like The Day After Tomorrow are reality based?

    32. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If the only two choices are "Absolutely right" or "completely wrong," this might make sense. The people who said "the earth is not flat, it's a sphere!" were, in fact, wrong. But, they were not as wrong as people who said that the Earth is flat.

      Science actually works by making progressively better models.

      The global warming models have error bars. Right now, the error bars are large-- plus or minus about 50%. But, the main feature-- the fact that increasing carbon dioxide does increase warming-- is pretty well established.

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    33. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by ScentCone · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Who said he was going to shoot you with a gun? There are lots of other options. Crossbows come to mind.

      And no, there's nothing wrong defending yourself against trespassers when you've taken the time and invested the resources to prepare for life threatening circumstances. When other people feel entitled to the work you put in to be prepared for something, the word you're looking for is not "refugees," it's "looters."

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    34. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      It will take future analysis and records. If the trends continue, it's not an anomaly. If the temperature trends drop, then we know it was a temporary blip in the record. Only time will really tell.

      Which means? Are you saying that 99 percent surety is non actionable? It must be 100 percent, or else full steam ahead?

      Geologically speaking, we've only been recording temperatures for an infinitesimally small amount of time.

      Infinitesimally is pretty vague, If you know it's infinitesimal, how many years is it?

      Moreover, there's obviously no experimental control possible - i.e., we can't tell what the temperature would be without humans with any certainty - it's all theoretical models that are describing the trends we're seeing.

      Here's part of your mistake. You are focusing on the "human" Humans don't make the CO2, they release it when they burn the sequestered CO2 in various fuels. That CO2 is the same as any other source, such as volcanic activity.

      I'm not saying the models are necessarily incorrect. I'm just pointing out that they are, in fact, only predictions and models. The only way to judge their validity is to measure their ability to predict trends over time.

      The problem is, the models are making predictions, and they are looking like a strong degree of correlation.

      Issues or things that don't look right are constantly being compared adjusted, and updated. Science doesn't sit still. One of the big claims of the denialists about the presumed slowdown of the warming trend was announced as solved when it was found that there were measurement errors between balloon data and satellite data even the scientist who noted the discrepency. Oddly or not oddly, the denialists don't mention the later work. I've cited the work in here before. I'm not home, so I don't have the documents and links at hand.

      Your post is thoughtful, so if you are interested, what I would suggest is to actually look into the data. And to look at both sides. In fact, go to denialist websites first and take a look at what they are using to refute AGW.

      Then do searches. Some times it is difficult, as citations are often incomplete. But the detective work is kind of fun.

      Then do a new search. Find the scientists who wrote the papers referred to. This is how I found the self refutation of one of the so called model failures. Self refutation might be a strong word - I don't meant to disparage the scientist involved, because he updated and agreed with the end correlation of data.

      Perhaps after enough perusal, you might agree with me that there is a lot of cherry picking going on, and using outdated research. There is also a fair amount of disingenuous messing with data.

      Check out some of the refutation sites as well. Those can be pretty illuminating.

      Finally - take a look at some of the Exxon data.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    35. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      The last time I checked we could be certain that most of the models were incorrect, because they differed significantly in their predictions.

      Which models and when did you check them? I'll do a little research for you and report back.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    36. Re: YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 5, Informative

      So what is 18 years of global temperature? I've been told its also weather since 18 years is far too short of a time to count for climate. But now 1 month counts as climate?

      lols

      Now, that's very peculiar. Why did you pick eighteen exactly, no more and no less? Why not, say, twenty? Why eighteen?

      We should always be suspicious when some very unusual number like that gets thrown up as baseline to compare against. Some blog somewhere told you to say eighteen years. Why?

      Here's the data:
      http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gist...

      OK, now we can see. Yes, eighteen years ago-- 1998-- was indeed a high point-- more than one standard deviation above the trend line. (Note that anthropogenic warming isn't instead of random variation-- it is in addition to random variation.) But, if you pick 1998 exactly as the starting point-- no more, no less-- up until 2013 you could kind of squint, and say "look, no warming since 1998". Pick the year before 1998 to start the graph, and the warming trend is clear. Pick the year after 1998 to start the graph, and the warming trend is clear. But if you picked 1998 exactly, no more, no less, up until 2013 you could draw the graph and make it almost look flat.

      Except, that was then. As of now, even with the high point at 1998... the overall warming trend is very obviously clear.

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    37. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Fuck up your economy, because we are kinda sure we guessed correctly.

      This isn't Science, it's a fucking guess game and competition for Government Grants.

    38. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are Fucking Ignorant.

      " temperatures plummeted to their lowest levels in decades in some locations of the Northeast at the start of Valentine's Day."

    39. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Funny how when its extra cold (snow storms, record cold winters, etc) all we hear is 'weather is not climate'. However when its extra hot, is seems weather is climate?

      Just to avoid the 'but that doesnt happen!' here we have one: http://drsircus.com/world-news...

      Umm, who exactly makes that argument that you are talking about? You are saying weather is climate, and you are cherry picking one area to do it from. Here is NOAA's global data. Rather different from your "Coldest month evah!" so there is no such thing as global warming.

      http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/...

      Even the fact that 2015 was a global record setter - that doesn't prove that the world is getting warmer. That's just one year. That's weather. But there is a trend of many warmer than normal years, and that is indicating climate.

      Not arguing a side here, just pointing out one of many many obvious logical faults both sides seem to have.

      It astounds me how high these extremes at both ends of this argument have climbed up their pedestals.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    40. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      I thought the east cost had some record cold last December, or possibly early January.

      I'm not certain, I live there, and had fine motorcycle rides both months.

      Seriously warm weather.

      Possibly, you are seeing what I call the Weather channel effect. Every winter, they go into hysterics mode, and report on record lows, huge snowstorms, and jumble it all together with various places, so that unless you have an hour to digest it, you would think that your place is going to be 20 below zero, and getting a record 100 inch snowfall. I almost never watch it, but the wife does occasionally, and they get worse every year.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    41. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      First: It is highly unlikely that you lived 120 miles from the nearest observation point. 1978 was a while ago, but unless you were in far southwestern Texas, they probably still had wayyyy better coverage than that in your area.

      Second: They don't just "substitute records from places over 120 miles away". Nobody does that. For places where weather stations are further apart, they use a method called bias-corrected statistical downscaling, based on a model of how temperature and precipitation correspond to topography. These models are calibrated based on k-fold validation, so we know they're actually very good at interpolating patterns. There is some error associated with it, but it is quite small. I would bet you money that they know exactly how hot that Christmas was, to within a tolerance of a degree or two.

      Third: Let's say your little town in the middle of BFE had some sort of crazy localized temperature anomaly that couldn't be picked up even by sophisticated methods. So what? That means almost exactly nothing when talking about global average temperatures. It's one grid cell out of hundreds of thousands, maybe millions.

      If you want a decent look at how these things are actually calculated (and what the observation station layout looks like), here's a good paper:

      http://www.prism.oregonstate.edu/documents/Daly2008_PhysiographicMapping_IntJnlClim.pdf

    42. Re: YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by slashping · · Score: 1

      30 years is long enough to remove the effects of weather. Longer periods don't buy you much for removing the weather effects, but start to blur the change in climate we want to identify.

    43. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Yaztromo · · Score: 2

      Funny how when its extra cold (snow storms, record cold winters, etc) all we hear is 'weather is not climate'. However when its extra hot, is seems weather is climate?

      Since when has it been extra cold on a global scale? When has it snowed within your lifetime all around the globe simultaneously?

      The "extra hot" we're discussing was measured on a global scale. Not local. The average temperature of the entire globe was a new record.

      This is the problem with armchair climate deniers. They see a big storm (or cold winter, or whatever) in their country, and presume that it's some sort of argument against global warming. Well guess what -- the globe is significantly bigger than your corner of it. The entirety of the United States could be in a deep freeze, but as the total area of the US is still less than 2% of the entire worlds surface, the wouldn't discount the average global temperature being higher than ever before.

      You're conflating local phenomena with a global phenomena. Weather is still not climate.

      Yaz

    44. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      As I read it Opportunist wants the right to shoot "refugees" who have been at least materially responsible for their own plight by denying that climate change is a problem and/or even exists. I suspect (subject to persuasive evidence to the contrary) that the average climate denier is not someone who would be wholly sympathetic to refugees, especially "economic" ones, so shooting them seems a harsh but just action?

    45. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Informative

      The global warming models have error bars

      The error bars weren't wide enough.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    46. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I just want to have the right to shoot you when you try to escape the rising water levels by climbing up onto my hill.

      You want the right to commit cold blooded murder of a refugee?

      According to that specific refugee that would be okay, because people have always died, so he wouldn't actually be responsible for his death. Keep up with the argument.

    47. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's just rabulism. Yes, a single person setting the air conditioning below 72 is not affecting much of Nature, but 7 billion people have 7 billion times the effect. Yes, Nature will change all the time with or without us. But the way 7 billion humans affect Nature makes changes much faster and more radical than before with the possible exception of a large meteor impact.

    48. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      I for one don't think we should attempt to control nature

      Funny because you're view corresponds to that of the people who are quite happy to completely fuck up nature.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    49. Re: YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by GeekWithAKnife · · Score: 1


      Thank you for clearing that up. I was losing hope that global warming is actually a thing.

      I'll be planning my move to tropical Sweden when it gets sufficiently warm.

      --
      A 'singular oddity' is an event that cannot be explained and only happens when you are alone.
    50. Re: YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Does pumping vast amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere not count as inadvertently "trying to control nature"?

    51. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why are people assuming I'm some "denialist"? I've already been modded down a couple of times as "overrated", which is shorthand for "I disagree with you and wish to silence you". It's hilarious... the slightest hint of wishing to validate claims with actual evidence and the pitchforks come out. And really... you must have a rather low opinion of my faculties if you seriously felt the need to point out that burning fossil fuels create the excess CO2, not the humans themselves. Sheesh.

      I sincerely try to look at the science objectively, and right now, the evidence looks pretty good that we're in a warming trend, and a lot of of scientists seem to think human activity has something to do with it. I have no qualms with that. But again, we're really not going to know if their predictive models are accurate or not until we match their predictions up with future data. That's all I'm saying.

      I have no problem with taking reasonable action to curb pollutants and emissions. I think that's a worthwhile goal in itself, regardless of what's happening with the climate. Moreover, it's common sense that we also need to start moving away from oil-based energy since there's a finite supply available to us - and that means investments in renewable energy sources. But let's not destroy or unnecessarily destabilize our economy in the process - that will simply derail efforts. No one gives a shit about the environment when they're about to get kicked out of their home since they can't get a job. Yes, I know... how dare I be pragmatic about human nature, right?

      It's important to get accurate models because a more accurate model will tell us how much time we have to implement necessary change. People who want us to go to take immediate extreme corrective measures are, in my opinion, doing more harm than good by generating massive political opposition needlessly. Early wolf-crying predictions were utterly disproved a few decades later. Thanks to that, many people don't believe the current round of worrisome predictions, even if this round turns out to be correct.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    52. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Florida, we have the Stand Your Ground law.

      And the water will start rising here first.

    53. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by AlterEager · · Score: 2

      The last time I checked we could be certain that most of the models were incorrect, because they differed significantly in their predictions.

      When did you check? Because that's not true.

      Individual model runs can produce different short term (< 30 year) outcomes, but the ensemble means match each other pretty well.

      (Individual model runs have to be different -- they include unpredictable events like volcanic eruptions and el-Ninos).

    54. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by AlterEager · · Score: 1

      Well, no.

      The summary of that paper is:

      Recent observed global warming is significantly less than that simulated by climate models. This difference might be explained by some combination of errors in external forcing, model response and internal climate variability.

      More recent papers show that the "errors in external forcing" and "model response" contributions are tiny compared to "internal climate variability". (And they missed another possibility that Cowtan et Al, 2015 pointed out -- the comparisons are often done badly).

    55. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by AlterEager · · Score: 1

      Funny how when its extra cold (snow storms, record cold winters, etc) all we hear is 'weather is not climate'.
      However when its extra hot, is seems weather is climate?

      Just to avoid the 'but that doesnt happen!' here we have one:
      http://drsircus.com/world-news...

      The first sentence in that article: "If you live in a handful of cities in the Northeast, [ of the USA ]".

      Oddly enough, not everyone does.

      Not arguing a side here, just pointing out one of many many obvious logical faults both sides seem to have.

      You're pointing out a logical fault by committing one?

      It astounds me how high these extremes at both ends of this argument have climbed up their pedestals.

      Since you appear to be at one of those "extremes" that's an odd thing to say.

    56. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by AlterEager · · Score: 1

      You are Fucking Ignorant.

      " temperatures plummeted to their lowest levels in decades in some locations of the Northeast at the start of Valentine's Day."

    57. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by AlterEager · · Score: 1

      Having the coldest and warmest months so close together proves climate change.

      Well, if you consider that 1893 is close to 2016...

    58. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by houghi · · Score: 1

      Not only rare, but also on both sides of the scale. So a highest in recorded history and a lowest in recorded history would be happening equally frequently rare.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    59. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by antdude · · Score: 1

      I thought So(uthern) CA(lifornia) was going to be hammered by heavy rain falls. Not much happened so far. :(

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    60. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      And everyone warmist and denialist knows this one is due to El Nino, but that won't stop the warmists from crowing over it.
      No it is not, how could it be?

      El Nino makes a some places hotter, but equally many it makes colder. That is the whole point of it: it makes it cold and hot at the wrong places for man kind, hence to much rain where we usually want less, not enough rain where we used to have more.

      La Nina is just the same, but into opposite direction (and not as variable in strength).

      The global trend of increasing temperatures is pretty unaffected from La Ninas and El Ninos. E.g. north Europe or Scandinavia is not affected at all ... I guess if one would look on a globe he finds plenty of places that are completely untouched by both phenomenas.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    61. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 2

      Even the fact that 2015 was a global record setter - that doesn't prove that the world is getting warmer. That's just one year. That's weather.
      No it is not weather. Weather phenomena don't cover the whole globe or big parts of it.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    62. Re: YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right, as soon as it doesn't snow in northern Florida anymore. You might as well prepare for a Bigfoot uprising. Because that is more likely to happen in your lifetime than any significant rise in sea level. Remember the people in the nineties who were screaming that the sky was falling said that the seas would be boiling by now.

    63. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by freedom_surfer · · Score: 2

      We should totally error on the side of fuck the children.

    64. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by freedom_surfer · · Score: 1

      So you get negatively modded two points for saying the F word regardless of context from the get go? This makes me a sad panda.

    65. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it was a cold snap. They happen. They're sure as hell not climate. They may be a part of the climate but they're not climate by themselves. With wind-chill, it was -45 to -50 where my home is. (I'm not there. I'm cheating and in Florida.) It also didn't last long. It's unseasonably warm again. I just checked my temperatures back home and it's 0800 and 25. It's going to snow, turn to ice, and then turn to *rain*. (I probably won't get either - my home's on a mountain. The weatherman lies to me all the time. The village will.) It's supposed to hit 40+ - into the night.

      My home is on the top of a mountain in NW Maine. Yeah... It *should* be somewhere in the 0 to 20 range. I do not make claims I can't substantiate. I have seen the *weather* change.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    66. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Don't read into this what I didn't say, please? ;-)

      Err... Um... I kinda *do* consider those close together. Those are but a drop in the bucket. A mere pittance, if you will.

      That said, I have seen HUGE changes in the weather. Huge... I retired to Maine. I came to Maine to go to school, many years ago. It used to go down below 0 deg. F and stay there - for a week. Then, it might rise to 10. (Those are the highs.) We'd get so much snow that we'd have to help the grounds crew. You would throw the snow up in the air (over your head) and the wind would blow it away. This was preparatory school - not elementary. The snow was deeper than we were tall. Often... They now have to make snow at the school's ski slope.

      There's snow coming today. To stick with that same area, it's going to snow, turn to ice, then turn to *rain* with the temperatures going over 40 - at night.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    67. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by AlterEager · · Score: 1

      Are you the AC above? I was replying to it. It seems to think there have been record cold global anomalies recently, it's of course right if by recently it means 1893.

    68. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are Fucking Ignorant.

      " temperatures plummeted to their lowest levels in decades in some locations of the Northeast at the start of Valentine's Day."

      Let's go through that again. Lowest level "in decades" instead of highest ever recorded in over a century. In some places in a relatively small region instead of the whole world. On one day instead of a month.

      But if you want to look at Valentine's Day specifically, there were lots of places with record highs (and not just in decades) too. Like Tuscon

    69. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by stevelinton · · Score: 1

      Anomaly is a technical term. If you want to compare how exceptionally warm January 2016 was with how exceptionally warm September 2015 was you need to remove the "normal" difference between September and January (and maybe a few smaller effects like the shift in the months of up to 18 hours due to leap years).
      The outcome of this is a number called the "temperature anomaly" which described how much hotter that month was than the same month in the average of a set of baseline years.

    70. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by KGIII · · Score: 1

      No no... If I was them I'd have said "that" instead of "this," for example. ;-) I'd have said don't read into that what I didn't say, or something like that. I was just tossing some more information out there and then adding some of what I've personally witnessed.

      But yeah that's a *tiny* section's worth of data. It's a potentially meaningless amount of data on a geological scale. I suspect if you made a time-line of the Earth's history that was ten feet long, that'd be about a quarter of an inch long. It really is a trivially short time. From 1893 until now is but a blink of an eye.

      Which is not to say that the climate is not changing. That's not even saying that humans aren't to blame for some of the change. It's just pointing out that, yes those two dates *are* close together. The rest was added because lots of people are absurd zealots who will make assumptions about my beliefs should I point something like that out. It was to indicate that I should not be assumed to be in denial. Indeed, I have seen change. It's just that those two dates really are very close to each other on a greater scale - a scale that is (and must be) accounted for by the scientists.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    71. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by cbeaudry · · Score: 1

      Last year the east coast all the way up to Canada has unusual cold for pretty much the whole winter.

      Started early in November and ended in late March.

      It was steady -20C for weeks on end overall probably months.

      Were as this year (here in Montreal) we have had 4 days in the last week of -20 and the rest of the winter has been pretty mild.

      Its par for the course with El Nino years though. Nothing much to see. It'll be very cold next year, it being a La Nina year, but then, the peanut gallery will be quite about that.

    72. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by AlterEager · · Score: 1

      That's not even saying that humans aren't to blame for some of the change.

      Slightly over 100% by current estimates.

    73. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's way more (statistically) interesting than that. If you have 1 day of measurements, Day 2 can be the same temp, the record high, or the record low. If you have 2 days of measurements, Day 3 is slightly less likely to be a 'record' high or low. If you have 1000 days of measurements, Day 1001 is not super likely to be a record high or record low.

      But it takes enough time to capture very rare extreme events that the chance of a 'record' high or low (or drought or precip) doesn't smoothly trend towards zero. If you look at weather records, there are distinct, order-of-magnitude-spaced blips in time of record-setting observations. Once in a decade heat-waves, hundred-year floods, etc.

      There is an entire (tiny) branch of climate science that looks at the statistical probability of extreme, record-setting events happening with and without climate change. The record-setting weather events captured in the last decade are very, very statistically unlikely to happen without outside forcing. It's not just record high temps - it's cold, flood, drought, storm intensity, etc. And if you look at what possible outside forcing could create events like these, there's really nothing other than anthropogenic climate change that could do it.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    74. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean like how NASA got caught falsifying data on AGW and how their confidence levels were only something like 40%. They gotta do something for an excuse to continue receiving funding. Might as well lie about the cause of climate change.

    75. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by KGIII · · Score: 1

      It's tempting to "correct" you but I'll assume good faith. Unfortunately, your post is technically wrong and may be misinterpreted by those who do not know better. So, I will type it out a bit more clearly. Yes, yes I do think it's a requirement to be specific, lest people think it is in error and use it for justification for erroneous conclusions.

      Virtually 100% of the current warming trend is caused by humans. Humans are not 100% (or even virtually 100%) responsible for climate change. The climate has changed before and will change again. This specific, and current, trend is believed to be nearly entirely the fault of humans. The rate at which it is currently changing is also believed to be caused by human activity. The Earth would have achieved this same level of warming on its own, it just would have warmed that same amount over a much, much longer period of time.

      It's not like I enjoy being this pedantic. There are many who will willfully misinterpret and many who seem to simply not know better.

      By the way, I have seen a claim of 97% of it being attributable to human activity but, if I remember the abstract properly, that's rather difficult to be certain of that. I'm quite positive that you know that it is just this specific trend that we're referencing. I'm not so positive that others will know.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    76. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by AlterEager · · Score: 1

      Virtually 100% of the current warming trend is caused by humans.

      Yes, I misspoke, the AR5 attribution statement is:

      It is extremely likely that more than half of the observed increase in global average surface temperature from 1951 to 2010 was caused by the anthropogenic increase in greenhouse gas concentrations and other anthropogenic forcings together. The best estimate of the human-induced contribution to warming is similar to the observed warming over this period.

      (my emphasis).

      I was only including the effect of human GHG emissions, which is probably more than 100% of current warming (offset by "other anthropogenic" effects and what seems to be a small natural cooling trend).

      By the way, I have seen a claim of 97% of it being attributable to human activity

      From everything I've seen the error bars are too big to be that precise.

    77. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      I dunno. How hot was it during the medieval warm period?

    78. Re: YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      nice argument, but it then puts the 29/30 year baseline into the same category!!.

      Nice try to have your cake and eat it!!.
       

    79. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Yup. Even the abstract was kind enough to point out that it wasn't very rigorous a finding. I took a quick look and I'm not seeing in in my favorites. I was keen on finding and linking it but, alas, it's missing. It was behind a paywall so I wasn't willing to pay for the complete study. I'd only found it because I was following up on some citations - that was actually a bit disturbing, that it was cited, as I seem to recall that they'd used that 97% figure authoritatively while the abstract indicated that it did not have a high confidence in that figure. Ah well...

      I find it easier, in some regards, to simply try to be more precise with my verbiage. There are a whole bunch of people who have intentionally twisted what has been said to make accusations or draw conclusions that are patently false. So, I try to communicate with more precision (or less precision). People still read into thing that which I did not say, that which I did not even hint at, and all sorts of other things.

      It's akin to pointing out that there's a flaw with the political left - the assumption is that I'm on the right. It's like pointing out a flaw with the progressives and having people I'm a conservative. It's like someone will read this and no assume I'm on the left even though I've made no indications of my beliefs in this post. I'm inclined to think it's human nature - I'm quite certain that I'm guilty of the same thing even though I do my best to avoid it.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    80. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We should totally error on the side of fuck the children.

      Good choice. That's our parents and grandparents all chose too.

    81. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Phronesis · · Score: 1

      And everyone warmist and denialist knows this one is due to El Nino, but that won't stop the warmists from crowing over it.

      The point being that there have been lots of El Niños before, and yet this El Niño is a lot warmer than any previous El Niño on record.

    82. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Well yes.
      There have been several attempts to explain away the problems with the climate models, as you correctly mention, but none of them are very convincing.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    83. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try looking closer at the numbers. This "hottest durp durp" is fabricated bullshit.

    84. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by AlterEager · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You cite a paper that says "This difference might be explained by some combination of errors in external forcing, model response and internal climate variability." but dismiss multiple papers that showed that there is little or no difference when internal climate variability was compensated for.

      I know what I don't find convincing and that's the single paper effect.

    85. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Already done. $19 Trillion in debt and climbing for the US. Europe is in a similar state.

    86. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      As long s he is not "looting property, that is still owned by a living person" he is not looting and a refugee.
      Climbing up a hill from rising waters: refugee.
      Climbing up a hill, you artificially raised (or mindfully occupied), while you caused the cause/reason why he became a refugee: legal self defense, don't you think so?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    87. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      The guy that buys a house in a flood zone has a claim to the house owned by the guy who bought one on a hill? Are you even listening to yourself? The guy who buys the house on elevated land is morally obligated to feed and house the guy who bought a house in a flood zone? The guy who buys the house outside of the flood zone does so, among other things, so that he won't BE one of those people who needs a Plan B when it rains. That's the whole point.

      Let me guess: you're implying that the person with the house on higher ground is somehow responsible for the weather in a way that the person who lives farther down the hill is not, right? Please.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    88. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by phantomfive · · Score: 0

      I know what I don't find convincing and that's the single paper effect.

      What you think isn't important, because you obviously don't know how to search for papers.
      Most likely you read realclimate.org or some other blog, and parrot what you read there. You have no capability of thought and research.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    89. Re: YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Bartles · · Score: 1

      I didn't know Ice ages appear at 30 year intervals.

    90. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      The guy who buys the house on elevated land is morally obligated to feed and house the guy who bought a house in a flood zone?
      "Feed"? Who said "Feed"?
      Morally obliged to give shelter? Yes. And in my country not only "morally" obliged but "by law" obliged. Morally obliged to share food? Most certainly.

      No idea in what moral desert you live, regardless of what religion or other believes, if you disagree: this planet has no place for you, mankind has no place for you, hope you reconsider and/or your "awakening" will not be to painful.

      The rest of your post is obviously trolling ...

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    91. Re: YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Beerdood · · Score: 2

      Personally, I like to call that time frame selection "Sportscaster statistics". If you're ever watching or listening to highlights or pre-game hype, you'll always hear the most convenient data sampling selection to fit the narrative of a winning or losing streak. "They've won 3 of their last 4!" means they won 3 of the last 5. "Dropped 7 of the last 9" almost certainly indicates they lost 7 of the last 10 games, or maybe 7 out of 11. For some reason, a team never seems to be just average, they're always on a hot or cold streak.

      If that number isn't rounded to 5 or 10, or a multiple of 10 (for a fairly low sampling size greater than 10 but less than 100), you should be skeptical of the data and immediately assume the number was picked to fit a narrative.

      --
      Global warming and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking number of pirates - Gospel of the FSM
    92. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      So you can't distinguish between being charitable, based on one's own moral code and circumstances, and being forced to do so? What sort of strange moral land do YOU live in that charity is such a good idea you have to use government force to make people do it? Must be a horrible place.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    93. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      How many near consecutive broken records does it take for weather extremes to no longer be called 'anomalies'?

      You misunderstand the use of the term "anomaly". When climate scientists want to compare temperatures it's often more useful to look at how the temperatures vary from some baseline temperature rather than just looking at an absolute temperature. An example of why this is useful: Consider two temperature stations 20 miles apart. There is usually a correlation between temperatures so close together. But if one station is 1000 feet higher than the other it will normally show a cooler temperature than the lower station just because of the higher elevation. But if you look at anomalies for the two stations, their variance from the baseline for each station, they may be the same. So the temperature at the lower elevation station might be 75 degrees F compared to a baseline temperature of 70F and the temperature at the higher station may be 72F compared to a baseline temperature of 67F. Different temperatures but the same anomaly.

    94. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 2

      Rescuing one from certain death is not "charity".
      Sorry, you are a moron.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    95. Re: YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by slashping · · Score: 1

      They don't. I'm not sure why you are so confused.

    96. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by turkeyfish · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, Its heartening to hear that all the political problems caused by and in Florida will over the next 75-100 years solve themselves.

    97. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by turkeyfish · · Score: 1

      "It will take future analysis and records. If the trends continue, it's not an anomaly."

      So how long do you propose we wait?

      Until car tires spontaneously combust? With asphalt now melting during periods of intense heat in many parts of the world, it looks like more and more like we won't have to wait long.

    98. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by turkeyfish · · Score: 1

      You seem to be operating under the delusion that global warming isn't already "fucking up" our economy.

      Do you have any idea how much more the US now spend on fighting forest fires than it did 100 years ago?

      Do you have any idea how much more frequent and more devastating storms are costing? Perhaps you don't but your insurance company has and they have built in global warming into their pricing models. You are paying for global warming, whether you want to believe in it or not.

    99. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Why are people assuming I'm some "denialist"? I've already been modded down a couple of times as "overrated", which is shorthand for "I disagree with you and wish to silence you". It's hilarious... the slightest hint of wishing to validate claims with actual evidence and the pitchforks come out. And really... you must have a rather low opinion of my faculties if you seriously felt the need to point out that burning fossil fuels create the excess CO2, not the humans themselves.

      To be certain, I didn't call you a denialist. If I assumed you were one, my response would have been much more pointed. Because in my book, Global warming denialists are in teh same camp as young esrth c reationists, tobacco industry lawyerists, and anti-vaxxers.

      Okay, I apologize, didn't mean to upset you. And won't bother you any more.

      Carry on.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    100. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      So your law requires each person to use their house to rescue other people from certain death? Here, we have a formal collection of emergency services and first responders who are far, far better equipped an trained to save you from "certain death" than is any average home owner. It must be strange to live in a country so poor and unsophisticated that your government chooses to require to run into burning buildings, go out to sinking ships, venture into flood waters, and sift through the rubble of collapsing buildings on your own, as a citizen. What happens if you don't run into that burning house to attempt to rescue someone who's trapped? Are you put in jail? Do you have to buy your own oxygen tanks and other turn-out gear so you're always ready in case you see a certain death situation?

      Or is it possible that you're basically lying in order to feebly attempt to make a murky point about how you're OK with your government forcing you to be nice to people in trouble, since you wouldn't do it on your own, otherwise? Either you live in a strange place, or you have a real problem in your need to have someone force you to be a decent person, since you seem to like that.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    101. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Even the fact that 2015 was a global record setter - that doesn't prove that the world is getting warmer. That's just one year. That's weather. No it is not weather. Weather phenomena don't cover the whole globe or big parts of it.

      Unless you made some sort of mistake in typing - I'm parsing that as you are saying some parts of the globe don't experience weather? All weather is phenomena.

      One year doesn't mean much. A decade or so is much more interesting. And if over many years, if the trend is upwards or downwards, more precipitation or less, it means the climate is altering.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    102. Re: YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For rising water levels be sure to watch ABC News who claimed back in 2007 that by June of 2015 New York City would be underwater. Oh I'm afraid the ocean will be in the same place it is now for the rest of our lifetimes. The pure fantasy land of the left exists only in their minds

    103. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      You mean like how NASA got caught falsifying data on AGW and how their confidence levels were only something like 40%. They gotta do something for an excuse to continue receiving funding. Might as well lie about the cause of climate change.

      I always invite people to provide me the citation on that. Because it almost always turns out to be the case I cited, and turns out the condemning evidence was incorrect and then reconciled. Considering the author of the evidence agreed with the reconciliation, - it's old and incorrect news.

      But just in case it's new, tell me, and I'll investigate and report back.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    104. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying the models are necessarily incorrect. I'm just pointing out that they are, in fact, only predictions and models. The only way to judge their validity is to measure their ability to predict trends over time.

      The only way to really measure the quality of a climate model is after the fact. Rerun the model with real world inputs such as the actual increase in greenhouse gases, the actual timing of ENSO, the actual timing of volcanic eruptions, the actual variation in TSI. When that is done the current climate models do quite well which gives us confidence in their quality.

    105. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by NetNed · · Score: 1

      What do you mean? Did you miss the articles that claim "the dry areas are soaking up the rising water levels" because their claims are not panning out?

    106. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Thanks. I don't live there, so my memory of the reported weather can be a bit unreliable. Or Perhaps it was Europe that was having some extremely cold weather.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    107. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by NetNed · · Score: 1

      The 2014 claim is dubious at best. The Nasa said the claim had a 36% chance of being right, which means it had a 64% chance of being wrong. The claim was also .02 Celsius warmer which Nasa said had a tolerance of correctness of ±.1 degrees. Haven't heard what the accuracy of the last two claims was, but with the numbers from 2014 that got little press, any one that isn't a little questioning of the claims is not true to the science or to math itself.

    108. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by HiThere · · Score: 1

      I didn't check particular models, I read how the published results were obtained. I'm not deeply into weather models, and though I was once deeply involved in traffic models and journey to work models what this did was convince me that a brief study of how a model worked would be useless, as things are extremely dependent on small assumptions.

      Consider, they're modeling a chaotic system, and the best they can ever hope to do is pick out where the boundaries between different state attractors is. And it's not like there's only just a few (either boundaries or attractors).

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    109. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Yeah, individual model runs have to be different, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about different models trying to predict the ensuing state when given the same data for the current state.

      OTOH, the report I read was 4-5 years ago. And it was a condensation of several technical reports intended of a "lay" audience. (I'm no expert in weather models.)

      Saying that " the ensemble means match each other pretty well" isn't exactly correct, though. Of course, history has already proven it wrong in detail (glaciers are collapsing a lot faster than predicted, nobody can explain the Antarctica Sea Ice, etc.).

      If there are ANY climate models that predicted BOTH the collapse of the ice in the Arctic and the rise of sea ice around Antarctica, then I haven't heard of them. it's my guess that the Antarctica sea ice will prove to be explainable within the current framework, but that hasn't yet been done. My wild guess is that the Antarctica continental ice is losing heat to the ocean faster than any of the models estimate, and this is what causes the expansion of sea ice. Unfortunately for this theory the sea ice doesn't seem to be as low in salinity as this would most easily predict. (The easiest mechanism of heat transfer would be via subsurface streams of thawed water such as have been seen in Greenland.) Perhaps there are caves under the ice where tidal surges flow in and out. That might speed the transference of heat.

      But as I said, I'm no expert, and these are just wild guesses.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    110. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are statistical tests.

    111. Re: YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      30 years is the World Meteorological Organization standard for climatology. So using 30 years is a standard practice.

    112. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try going back farther than your predetermined dataset. We broke a temperature record in December in the Washington DC metro area by 1 degree F. The previous record was set in 1889... next chicken little....

    113. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      He could shoot the refugee with a camera and put a snarky caption on it. Add a cat and it could go viral on YouTube.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    114. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Nobody's talking about stopping Earth's natural climate changes because they really aren't a problem right now. It's the human-caused stuff that's a problem.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    115. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I think he meant that any individual weather phenomenon covers only a small part of the Earth.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    116. Re: YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that is the case, its getting colder. It has not been this cold in the Northeast for 100 years. It was -114 in terms of wind chill on mount Adirondack today.

    117. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by pr0fessor · · Score: 1

      Well they are not numbers actually recorded at the site any way you slice it and my home town is in BFK for Kansas where there are still large sparsely populated areas of mostly farm land. Contrary to the vision of Hollywood the Ozarks kind of peter out into hills which cover a portion of the state and at the end of those hills is a corridor that enjoys it's own separate weather from the rest of the state which is where my home town is.

    118. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, I guess the fact that Venus is full of CO2 and is getting warmer because of it, means that pumping CO2 here on earth has zero effect?

      It doesn't matter where the CO2 comes from. Volcanic activity or a billion car tailpipes and factory chimneys.

      Dumbass.

    119. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by dywolf · · Score: 1

      Ah.
      The "I slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night" stance.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    120. Re: YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by dywolf · · Score: 1

      its not just "1 month". its a specific month in a known cycle, being compared to past months in the same place in the same cycle. for reference, the earth orbits the sun, and the earth is tilted. this created a cycle we call "seasons". this makes it possible to compare this January to previous Januaries, which provides information about how the cycle is changing at specific points in that cycle.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    121. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by dywolf · · Score: 1

      the only obvious logic fault is your own.
      you linked to an article pointing out a local record, not a global average record.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    122. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by dywolf · · Score: 1

      no that's not what it meant.
      that 38% number is being taken out of context and distorted.

      to explain it further, read this: https://www.washingtonpost.com...

      So what’s up with this 38 percent figure, and does it really undermine the idea that 2014 was the hottest year on record?

      The figure comes from slide 5 of the PowerPoint presentation mentioned above, where NASA scientists noted that there was a 38 percent chance that 2014 was the hottest year, but only a 23 percent chance that the honor goes to the next contender, 2010, and a 17 percent chance that it goes to 2005.

      The same slide shows that NOAA’s scientists were even more confident in the 2014 record, ranking it as having a 48 percent probability, compared with only an 18 percent chance for 2010 and a 13 percent chance for 2005. Here is the slide: http://img.washingtonpost.com/...

      so, as usual, scientists said something scientific, reasonably assuming a scientific understanding of statistics on the part of the listeners (it being intended for an audience familiar with the subject), and instead a group of ignorant people heard it, interpreted it wrongly, and ran with it, spreading misinformation in the process.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    123. Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly) by HiThere · · Score: 1

      And your credentials are?

      Unless you give me reason to consider that you have valid grounds for questioning my appraisal, then I'm not going to consider your response even remotely valuable.

      AFAICT, you are "arguing from authority" with yourself as the authority. Which is alright, provided you have a valid basis for the claim to authority. You haven't even asserted any.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  3. Well then by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 5, Funny

    I eagerly await the forthcoming rational, thoughtful, and respectful discourse from both sides!

    ... Where's the popcorn?

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:Well then by Alwin+Henseler · · Score: 3, Informative

      ... Where's the popcorn?

      Spread all over the land... Climate is changing so fast, the corn popped before they could harvest.

    2. Re:Well then by penguinoid · · Score: 1

      Would you rather listen to some cold-blooded people carefully calculating their own self-interest?
      Or some hot-headed fellow who's plan will ruin everything?

      Discuss.

      --
      Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
  4. lol by evil9000 · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Yeh, just remember Valantines day in the US was -14C: the Hottest Febuary 14th 2016 ever!!

    1. Re:lol by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      Here in Camarillo, CA (just north of Los Angeles) it's 91 F or just over 32.77C at 4 PM. If this is what Global Warming does, I'm not complaining as I hate cold weather.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    2. Re:lol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeh, "lol". Apparently the US does not include states like California. 85F right now in NoCal whereas typically it should be in the 50s. Coldest February ever!

    3. Re:lol by Dynedain · · Score: 1

      And here in LA at the beach it was in the upper 80s F when we'd usually expect something more like 65 F. Local temperatures != global average.

      --
      I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
  5. So? by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    It's just weather.

    I say that with a maximum of snark, but it truly is just weather. El Niño weather, to be precise. And the inflammatory headline is the usual nonsense, contradicted by its own summary. It says recorded history began in 1951. My parents might have something to say about that.

    Why do we have to put up with such bullshit reporting? Does Slashdot really make that much money off of the page views driven by irate commenters?

    1. Re:So? by Daetrin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just out of curiosity, where precisely do you believe it say recorded history began in 1951?

      In particular, the charts and graphs linked in the article shows January temperatures going back to 1880. (And yes, this January was warmer than all of them.) I think you may be conflating different statements into a single assumption?

      --
      This Space Intentionally Left Blank
    2. Re:So? by Yoda222 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The summary does not says that recorded history began in 1951. It says that 1951-1980 average serves as baseline for the temperature anomaly "0" level.

    3. Re:So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Three idiotic statements in a two-line post. Well done!

      First, it's not weather. The global mean temperature is remarkably resistant to seasonality and weather (by virtue of being, you know, GLOBAL). If it's winter in the northern hemisphere, it's summer in the southern. If there is a major high pressure system in one part of the world, it's usually offset by low pressure elsewhere in location and in time (unless you think of 30-day weather systems as being the norm). The global temperature hovers about 15 degrees, year-round, every year, apart from its slow upward creep.

      Second, El Niño isn't a global phenomenon (and even if it were, it's not so extreme an event that it could shift the global mean temperature to that magnitude). It is not responsible for the worldwide mean increasing. In fact, the severity of the system is a symptom of increasing amounts of thermal energy being stored by the planet.

      Third, it does not say the recorded history of earth began in 1951. At the most generous to your indignation, it implies that global mean temperature data has only been collected reliably since 1951 (and by satellite since 1978). However, pre-1951 data was collected and is presented back to 1880 with the caveat that it's imperfect.

      The real question is why we have to put up with such bullshit commentary by irate posters like yourself.

    4. Re:So? by blindseer · · Score: 0, Troll

      Right, it's just weather.

      When we have a cold snap the global warming types say "it's just weather" and so when we have a warm month here and there I believe I can rightfully say that "it's just weather".

      To all those people that say we need to "save the climate" I must ask, which climate would that be? Where I sit right now in the USA was at one time covered in tropical plants. At some other point in history it was under several hundred feet of water. At another point it was under a mile or so of ice. But let's not talk such extremes, then. At the time Little House on the Prairie was written the winters here were -40C. Is that what we want? I remember last winter, we had -50C wind chills, and yet that didn't seem to make the news.

      Let's assume for a minute that global warming is happening, that people are causing it, and this global warming will be bad for people. Okay then, let's do something about it. Let's do something that will make a real and actual reduction in our carbon output. Let's build nuclear power plants, like one new gigawatt scale plant somewhere in the world every month. Maybe we should build one every week.

      You think we can't do that? I think we can. We've got the ability to build a lot of things more difficult than a nuclear power plant. I'm not claiming we need to be haphazard about it, take your time in getting the design right, make sure it is safe and properly inspected. Just do it at a rate that actually makes a difference.

      Oh, I'm sure someone will ask what we are to do about the radioactive waste? We can bury it, reprocess it, or even dump it in the ocean. Whatever we do it's got to be better than oceans rising, famines, mega-storms, or whatever else global warming might bring. We're talking about saving the world, we can't worry about a few tons of radioactive waste every year, no?

      To those that think we should change out our light bulbs for LEDs, take the bus or bike to work, use low flow toilets, turn down the thermostat and wear a sweater, drive electric cars, eat locally grown foods, and so on... I say I'd rather have the global warming.

      We can choose living it up in a nuclear powered world, or suffer. If you think we have any other choice I say... bite me.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    5. Re:So? by DogDude · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Short sighted and stupid is no way to go through life, son.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    6. Re:So? by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 4, Informative

      Many of the environmentalists worried about the climate do, in fact, advocate nuclear power.

      James Hansen, for example, is probably the most well known person warning about climate change. He is strongly in favor of nuclear power. He stated:

      ..continued opposition to nuclear power threatens humanity’s ability to avoid dangerous climate change.
      We call on your organization to support the development and deployment of safer nuclear power systems as a practical means of addressing the climate change problem.... in the real world there is no credible path to climate stabilization that does not include a substantial role for nuclear power

      citation: http://grist.org/news/more-nuk...
      http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes....

      Or, check out this one:
      http://www.takepart.com/articl...

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    7. Re:So? by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      Yes, it is weather. Unprecedented weather, never recorded before since the start of the systematic observations. Yes, it's due to El Nino which is also the strongest one recorded so far.

      But sure, we're heading into an Ice Age. Just wait two or three years. And meanwhile feel free to burn as much gasoline as you can - it'll help to prevent Ice Age!

    8. Re:So? by Hussman32 · · Score: 1, Informative

      There are irate posters on both sides. Scientists, those that continue to review the evidence and not assume they are correct when an association has not satisfied all criteria for proof of causation, would note that California had 200 year long droughts when Heidelberg first started as a university, long before the industrial revolution or little ice age. Then the weather/climate would rapidly shift.

      Climate science is far from settled. Most of the peer-reviewed papers are cautious in their conclusions. Most of the journalists that misreport and misunderstand the conclusions in the abstracts resort to calling people religious terms like 'deniers.'

      --
      "Who are you?" "No one of consequence." "I must know." "Get used to disappointment."
    9. Re:So? by David_Hart · · Score: 1

      We can choose living it up in a nuclear powered world, or suffer. If you think we have any other choice I say... bite me.

      I agree with you. The biggest problem with nuclear power is that we aren't building new plants fast enough. The vast majority of nuclear power plants are old, really old, and past their original lifetimes.

      The one technology that I think can compete with nuclear going forward is tidal energy.

    10. Re:So? by quantaman · · Score: 1

      It's just weather.

      I say that with a maximum of snark, but it truly is just weather. El Niño weather, to be precise. And the inflammatory headline is the usual nonsense, contradicted by its own summary. It says recorded history began in 1951. My parents might have something to say about that.

      Why do we have to put up with such bullshit reporting? Does Slashdot really make that much money off of the page views driven by irate commenters?

      It's a big outlier, but that outlier is at least partly driven by a change in the mean and variance.

      As for the broader point it's not so much that the warm January is evidence itself of global warming but the warm January gives people something tangible to associate with global warming.

      It doesn't matter how good the science is, people don't even plan for their retirement, do you think they're going to care about the predicted climate 50 years from now? They need to see climate change doing something today.

      You need to give them something current and tangible if they're going to accept it, true the warm January is only caused by climate change the same way a heads is caused by an unfair coin, but you sometimes need to be fine with people coming to the right answer through the wrong route.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    11. Re:So? by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just out of curiosity, where precisely do you believe it say recorded history began in 1951?

      The summary does not says that recorded history began in 1951. It says that 1951-1980 average serves as baseline for the temperature anomaly "0" level.

      I'll respond to you and the sibling post simultaneously.

      The headline says "Last January Was the Hottest Global Temperature Anomaly In Recorded History". The summary says "It was 1.13 C warmer than the global average of 1951-1980". Taken together, that says that recorded history began in 1951. I mentioned both the words "headline" and "summary" in my original post. You were expected to put them together yourself.

    12. Re:So? by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 2

      I'll respond to you and the sibling post simultaneously.

      The headline says "Last January Was the Hottest Global Temperature Anomaly In Recorded History". The summary says "It was 1.13 C warmer than the global average of 1951-1980". Taken together, that says that recorded history began in 1951.

      +1, Funny.

      (You were attempting to be funny, yes?)

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    13. Re:So? by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Seems pointless to expect anything else from someone who puts his circular logic on display in his sig for all to admire.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    14. Re:So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      If 1951 - 1980 are the baseline with zero anomaly level ... why are there so many wild swings in that range? Just a 2-year span has nearly half a degree of fluctuation from one August to the next. Almost every month had at least a quarter-degree swing from one year to the next. That's not the stability upon which you should build your baseline.

      Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
      1963 -03 +18 -15 -05 -10 +02 +09 +23 +19 +14 +15 -01
      1964 -06 -11 -24 -31 -26 -09 -07 -23 -28 -30 -21 -30

      (plus signs and leading zeros added by me to try any maintain formatted columns)

    15. Re:So? by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      Just remember, when your multimillion dollar beach front apartment's ground floor is underwater and no one can drive there any more, remember it's just water, so big deal, you drink it by the glass full every day, get used to it. No difference to when the worlds ports become unusable and new ones need to be built. There are also a whole bunch of low lying coastal airports that need to be rebuilt. Roads and rail lines also and no one can really tell how destructive that period of a massive surge of suspended sediments in coastal waters will be. So coastal refugees counting in the billions, apparently also not a problem, shit we struggle with a million, what will be the impact of a billion, on countries suffering losses in the trillions. They will be out for blood and the descendants rolling around in wealth generated by the insanities of their parents, yeah, they will pay a very bitter price. No one ever controls a violent out of control mob, the bullets fly and people die and those who once thought they were all powerful, find themselves dangling at the end of a rope. Not a course any sane person set's on purpose.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    16. Re: So? by bloodstar · · Score: 1

      Well El Nino is actually a change in the Walker circulation brought on by a relaxation (or in extreme cases a reversal) of the trade winds over the equatorial Pacific region. This let's the water that had been piling up in the west pacific begin shifting back to the east. Which shifts the convection from the heated water to the east as well. You also have the upwelling along the west coast of south America also slow or cease. From there the changes in SSTs and convection will shift the various weather patterns. It's something of a cascading effect, which shows up most in the winter time air for the US. El Nino (and LA Nina) are more than weather, at least in a classic sense that it takes a lot of work to take out the shorter term variabilities to reveal the long term pattern. And when you do, you're left with a 6 to 9 month El Nino phase and 2 to 6 for the neutral and LA Nina phase. Now one of the next questions trying to be ironed out, what effect will the change in climate have on the walker circulation and the ENSO system.

      --
      "The bass, the rock, the mic, the treble. I like my coffee black, just like my metal" - Mindless Self Indulgence
    17. Re: So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you agree they are cherry picking years right?

    18. Re:So? by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      To those that think we should change out our light bulbs for LEDs, take the bus or bike to work, use low flow toilets, turn down the thermostat and wear a sweater, drive electric cars, eat locally grown foods, and so on... I say I'd rather have the global warming.

      To those that say that I'll say they are misguided if they believe tiny individual acts will amount to anything, although for sure get rid of the damn car. Without cars we could be living like king on $1K per month (plus free heatthcare). Hell, we shit on a personal sit-down toilet so we're living like kings already, but we don't know it yet.

      So, you can't buy a 100 watt bulb, but you can buy a 150 000 watt car? What the hell. As if 15 kilowatt would not be enough to move asses around. Technology like steam and electric give high torque at low power and speed limits could be dropped to somehing like 40 mph.
      I'm in favor of nuclear power, but to also take the bus or bike to work, turn down heat and put a sweater on. And use incandescent halogen, because I prefer a few lights with continuous spectrum to many with spiky spectrum.

    19. Re:So? by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1
      So, by your logic (and reading comprehension problems), are you implying that the current year is 1980? Since you seem to believe that "recorded history" in the title applies to the year span of 1951-1980, that must be the conclusion, no?

      Or are you saying history just stopped being recorded in 1980, and we're living in the post-historic era?

    20. Re:So? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Why can we buy a 150,000 watt car?

      Because most people prefer lame weak little engines. I'd set the minimum at 300,000 watts.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    21. Re:So? by pjbgravely · · Score: 1

      .... although for sure get rid of the damn car. Without cars we could be living like king on $1K per month (plus free heatthcare). Hell, we shit on a personal sit-down toilet so we're living like kings already, but we don't know it yet.

      So, you can't buy a 100 watt bulb, but you can buy a 150 000 watt car? What the hell. As if 15 kilowatt would not be enough to move asses around. Technology like steam and electric give high torque at low power and speed limits could be dropped to somehing like 40 mph...

      I am not sure how you think I would be living like a king walking or biking everywhere. It would take days just to get to the doctor to get my free health care. There are no buses here and I doubt there will ever be any. I would go broke taking a taxi everywhere on $1K a month. And no I am not going to move, I live very close to my job.

      --
      Star Trek, there maybe hope.
    22. Re: So? by ljw1004 · · Score: 2

      You've made a logical flaw. I don't know how to explain it because, well, your combining of the two sentences is wrong on a logical basis and also wrong on an "intuitively that's what it obviously means" basis and I don't know how or why you tried to combine them.

      The average 1951-1980 just provides a baseline for comparison. Maybe 1635 was 2 degrees warmer than that baseline. Maybe 1856 was 2.5 degrees colder than that baseline. Maybe 2015 was 1.15 degrees warmer.

      The baseline is just the "tare" or "zero calibration". It doesn't imply which years are compared to it.

    23. Re: So? by Yoda222 · · Score: 1

      They could have taken the years at the beginning of the recorded temperature (as the comment at the origin of this trend assumed), but the quality and uncertainty is bigger there. If they had done that, the current anomaly would bigger, but that does not really matter. The trend of the anomaly (= the trend of the average temperature) is the important part. And the fact that the anomaly has got several new high.

    24. Re:So? by Yoda222 · · Score: 1

      When we have a cold snap the global warming types say "it's just weather" and so when we have a warm month here and there I believe I can rightfully say that "it's just weather".

      When was the last time that the monthly (or yearly) global anomaly broke a low record? Was that at this point that you heard people say "it's just weather"?

    25. Re:So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WHich shows you how stupid climate scientist are!

      "lets stop using carbon which has some cycles that are beneficial to life on earth and switch to NUKES which is destructive to biological processes.."

      how SHORT SIGHTED AND STUPID!

    26. Re:So? by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      In those sorts of discussion everyone brings his bias and rationalizes his way of living as the true way or the reasonable way, and that includes myself obviously (in the car-less, bike-ful angle)

    27. Re:So? by fuzzyf · · Score: 3, Informative

      As Michael Chrichton pointed out once, it's odd that Nasa changed the 1880 temperature chart after publishing it.

      I couldn't find a good link, but this blog covers it pretty good:

      https://stevengoddard.wordpres...

      I'm not saying that global warming, or climate change, or whatever you want to call it doesn't happen. I'm just a bit sceptical about the "Either you are with us or you are against us"-mentality of it all.
      Let's do what we can to compesate and at the same time be open to information for all sides.

    28. Re:So? by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Kinda a circular argument, isn't it?

      You have no buses because everyone is driving cars ... and you think you still have no buses if you stop driving cars?

      Strange that even third world countries have usually a working bus network ... only your country can't do that.

      It would take days just to get to the doctor to get my free health care. that is also o very strange, unless you live in an really isolated part of the world, there should be a doctor in biking range, even if it is unconvenient to use the bike with a heavy cold.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    29. Re:So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what the article says ... that the comparison was made to data going back to 1951. That is what "recorded history" means to the author of the article.

    30. Re:So? by Daetrin · · Score: 1

      What it says is "the record for the hottest month in recorded history has been shattered" and then later "warmer than the global average of 1951-1980." And if you check the linked charts as mentioned before (this one being the most data intensive) you can see that the data goes back to 1880.

      Reading comprehension is good. So is logic. If you apply both you can see that if the reference period of 1951-1980 is (on average) warmer than the years before 1951 (which is the case, -0.001 avg vs -0.235 avg) and 2016 is warmer than the reference period of 1951-1980 (+1.13 vs -0.001 avg,) then by the simple application of the transitive property you can determine that 2016 is warmer than the years before 1951.

      This post really ought to be marked as redundant since i'm just details of the facts that i already pointed out in the first post, but unfortunately you still appear not to get it. Which means either you're a troll or... well, i don't want to get this marked as flamebait instead.

      --
      This Space Intentionally Left Blank
    31. Re:So? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Are you saying that, if I get rid of my car, there will automatically be good public transportation to where I want to go? Or that, if we put a lot of work into it, we could make cars a lot less necessary over a large part of the country? There are already cities that are plenty livable without a car, but currently without one I'd have to quit my job, switch my health care, and figure out how to get to my court date on time.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    32. Re:So? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Actually, a record-breaking warm January is evidence of global warming. It isn't conclusive evidence. The string of "warmest ever" periods is strong evidence of global warming.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    33. Re:So? by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      The 1951-1980 baseline is just the average temperature of those 30 years (the classical climate period as defined by the World Meteorological Organization). It includes all of those "wild swings" that you mention. It doesn't matter what you use as a baseline. The anomalies are just the temperature minus the baseline so the relative differences between temperatures is preserved. If you wanted to use the actual temperatures rather than anomalies you could show a graph that went from 55F to 61F (or 13C to 16C) but the curve of the graph wouldn't change.

      The "stability" of the baseline period doesn't matter. Even during the baseline period when you plot the actual temperatures of individual years they are above or below the baseline unless they just happen by coincidence hit the baseline.

    34. Re:So? by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Nuclear power's biggest problem is that it's too expensive to compete financially with most other forms of power production. The only way to significantly ramp up the rate of building nuclear power plants is with massive government subsidies.

    35. Re:So? by pjbgravely · · Score: 1

      True there is a basic doctor in biking distance but the specialists are in the cities. I am not blessed with simple illnesses. I have no idea why there are no buses, there are lots of people who can't drive and they are forced to waste their money on taxis.

      I am not sure why people think owning cars is so expensive. I buy them for 4 to 6 thousand and drive them for 10 to 15 years, by that time I have saved enough for the next one. Insurance is the biggest cost if you hyper-mile. I can do all my own repairs, I am not sure if a lot of people can do that.

      As for my country, yes it is the U.S.A. Every year services and opportunities disappear. Someday the rural areas will be 3rd world like and only some cities will resemble a modern society.

      --
      Star Trek, there maybe hope.
    36. Re:So? by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 2

      +1, Funny.

      (You were attempting to be funny, yes?)

      I was attempting +1 That's a Really Stupid Headline. Which it was. "In recorded history" means something, and it does not mean what the article submitter thinks it means. It's outrageously alarmist and therefore harmful.

      And I see the mods are schizophrenic today. The original post is at score 0, while the restatement of the same thing is at +4. Do you people read?

    37. Re:So? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      so your expert is the writer of Jurassic Park?
      Hate to point it out to ya...but he's not a climate scientist.
      and Goddard is also a crank.

      don't get me wrong, State of Fear was an entertaining story.
      but its just that: a story.

      the actual science and reality is far divorced from his book.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    38. Re:So? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      this post needs modded up

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    39. Re:So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      im personally not opposed to nukes, per se
      im simply not in favor of them anymore.

      20 years ago I favored them. but 20 years ago renewable tech, let alone manufacturing capacity, wasn't anything near to what it is today.
      given that, I believe that solar is the way forward, providing most of the same benefits, with none of the downsides of nukes.
      if we were further out, like say Mars distance (which gets something like 11% of the solar energy the Earth does), then I'd say nukes all the way.

      But we're not. and solar, wind, and other renewables can get us where we need to be, in our lifetimes, without the costly downsides of nukes.

      you don't need armed guards with a solar plant.
      you don't need continuous extensive (and extremely hazardous) maintenance.
      and two specifics for peoples miracle breeder fantasies: you don't need to worry about nuclear proliferation, and you don't need the even more costly (and again: hazardous) reprocessing facilities.

  6. Cue the huge argument by 14erCleaner · · Score: 1

    No it isn't, yes it is, etc., etc., etc.

    --
    Have you read my blog lately?
  7. What the Anomaly is by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 5, Informative

    How many near consecutive broken records does it take for weather extremes to no longer be called 'anomalies'?

    The "anomaly" is defined as the difference in temperature from the reference baseline. Even if that difference were zero, it would still be called the temperature anomaly-- it would be an anomaly of zero.

    FAQ: https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/moni...

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
  8. Higher than Average... by Tehrasha · · Score: 1
    So January was higher than an average of 30 years worth of Januarys...

    Since an average is just that, an average, how did January 2016 compare to the highest January in those 30 years?

    1. Re:Higher than Average... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      See for yourself: http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/tabledata_v3/GLB.Ts+dSST.txt

      January 2016 was not only 0.3C hotter than the previous record-holder (2015, unsurprisingly), but 0.8C hotter than any single January in the 1951-1980 baseline. It's also 0.6C hotter than any single month in that range. It's a lot, given that the global mean is so consistently stable.

    2. Re:Higher than Average... by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      January 2016 had a higher anomaly than 136 previous years of January's and had a higher anomaly than any of 1632 months from 1880 to 2015.

  9. Used to be a lot warmer. by viking80 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Used to be a lot warmer many times in history. Around year 1000, and for many generations, norsemen grew grains in Greenland. Antartica and Svalbard had tropical climate millions of years ago. It appears the earth was overall a lot wetter when is was warmer, which makes sense. Probably also a lot more violent weather.

    Maybe a new ice age would be more devastating than a wet heatwave.

    --
    don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
    1. Re:Used to be a lot warmer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah yes, the George Carlin argument: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB0aFPXr4n4

    2. Re:Used to be a lot warmer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      We know that to be true, but 1000 wasn't in the span of "recorded history!" Dude! It WASN'T... RECORDED... HISTORY. Full Stop.

      This article is yet another feeble attempt at persuasive hyperbole by the Climate Warriors on the fringe.

    3. Re:Used to be a lot warmer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, planet earth will have no problem with warmer temps, but what about humans that have built huge cities on coastal lines?

    4. Re:Used to be a lot warmer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Antartica was tropical when the continent was not situated at the south pole.

    5. Re:Used to be a lot warmer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which would be worse, your wife dying or your wife cheating on you? Hmm. Cold or hot.

    6. Re:Used to be a lot warmer. by jouassou · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I hear this argument a lot. You're right that there's nothing wrong with having a warmer climate, and as you say, it's a lot less destructive than another ice age. The problem occurs when the climate changes are too rapid. In this case, wild species don't have enough time to either migrate to suitable areas or adapt through evolution, possibly resulting in mass extinction and ecological disaster. For us humans, coastal cities would be affected by rising sealevels; climate changes would shuffle around which regions are suitable for farming and not; other food sources like fishing might be affected in unpredictable ways. So you're right that the Earth has been a lot warmer before, but that doesn't solve the short-term problems caused by rapid climate change.

    7. Re:Used to be a lot warmer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are we going to do when millions of Africans try to move to Europe because the land is turning into a dust bowl before their eyes? Invite then in because "yeah, we're sorry about the climate change, it's no big deal"...

    8. Re:Used to be a lot warmer. by vinlud · · Score: 1

      Svalbard moved from the southern hemisphere all the way up to its present position, crossing the equator, so yeah, there was a tropical climate on Svalbard (hence the coal layers) but not because of the reason you mention

      --
      Repeat after me: We are all individuals
    9. Re:Used to be a lot warmer. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Around year 1000, and for many generations, norsemen grew grains in Greenland
      If you call three generations "many" ... keep in mind we are growing food there again since 25 years or so.

      Antartica and Svalbard had tropical climate millions of years ago
      Yes: because Antarctica was not at the south pole at that time. Or do you really believe a tropical forrest grows in 6 month of "arctic night"? (well, considering the transition phases it is only 2 months surrounded by 2 months of "twilight")

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    10. Re:Used to be a lot warmer. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Okay, get one of those newfangled inventions called a "globe". Look at it. Look at Greenland and Europe. Now, look at the rest of the globe. Which is bigger?

      "Millions of years ago" is irrelevant to our purposes. The current problem is temperature changes over a few centuries, not over a million years.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    11. Re:Used to be a lot warmer. by viking80 · · Score: 1

      If you argue that humans are ruining the planet, you are of course right.
      - We are right now in the biggest and fastest mass extinction the world has ever seen. Except for when Theia sterilized the earth long ago.
      - The rainforest are cut down at a high rate, and will vanish.
      - 10 billion or more people will overload food supplies and resources
      - Oceans are all overfished
      - Natural resources of all kinds are depleted.

      Global warming is the least of our concerns. Global extinction is quite likely, warm or cold.

      --
      don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
  10. "Recorded History" is 136 years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    136 years is a few milliseconds on climatic and geologic time scales.

    1. Re:"Recorded History" is 136 years by hey! · · Score: 1

      136 years is a few milliseconds on climatic and geologic time scales.

      No, it's 136 years.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    2. Re:"Recorded History" is 136 years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Out of 4.5 billion... or 6000?

    3. Re:"Recorded History" is 136 years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, actually it's 65 years. The article states that the comparison was made to records reaching back to 1951.

    4. Re:"Recorded History" is 136 years by hey! · · Score: 1

      Out of 4.5 billion... or 6000?

      It's still 136 years. Or put another way, roughly two human lifetimes or about five generations. In other words, a long time for a human being.

      Indeed it is always possible to choose a longer yardstick by which comparison something else will seem like a short time. 4.5 billion years? Meh; the half life of a proton is on the order of 10^33 years. But then so what?

      It may be true that 136 years is a short time compared to 4.5 billion, but utterly irrelevant.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    5. Re:"Recorded History" is 136 years by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      You misinterpreted what you read. The baseline for the anomalies is 1951 to 1980 but the temperature record goes back to 1880, 136 years.

  11. Re:...as Slashdot continues to spiral down the dra by grcumb · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Slashdot is wondering what happened to their old tech/geek audience, while allowing the radical liberal activists and brainwashed "global warming" propagandists to take over the site - the same way Digg was destroyed.

    If the new owners want to see a future for slashdot, the first thing to do is kick out these idiot Global Warming activists.

    You know what? I'm a radicalised global warming (no scare quotes) activist. You know why? Because I live in a perfect island paradise in the South Pacific.

    Only these days, it ain't so perfect. First, we got hit with the most powerful cyclone in the history of this region. Then we got 8 months of extreme drought thanks to the most powerful El Niño event in recorded history.

    Neither cyclones nor the ENSO cycle are abnormal here. We are situated just south enough of the equator that we get an average of about 1.5 cyclones in our territorial waters every year. And ENSO has pretty much defined our climatic cycles since before humans ever inhabited here.

    But the severity of these events, and the abnormality of weather events in recent years, is indisputably increasing. This year alone, we've seen record high regional temperatures, cyclones crossing the equator—an hitherto unknown event—and just this week, we saw a weak hurricane reverse its path, redouble its strength to Category 3/4, and now we're waiting for it to make landfall in a country that is about 1000 miles from where the storm's typical path would be. We've also seen cyclonic storms forming outside of the tropical belt, and... well, the list goes on.

    Have I been brainwashed? Yes. Brainwashed by the evidence. You can cite all the skepticist bullshit you like, because I'm watching my climate change right in front of my eyes. And yes, I know the difference between weather and climate. I also know that virtually all of the climate prediction models call for increasingly wide fluctuations in weather behaviour, and that fits pretty much perfectly with the evidence in front of me.

    So respectfully: If I and my ilk have ruined Slashdot for you, then good. Feel free to fuck off out of here and leave the conversation to rational adults.

    --
    Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
  12. And yet by WindBourne · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ppl will continue to scream that America with less than 15% of total emissions, and dropping, is responsible, while china with more than 33% ( mid 40s% according to oco2 ) is OK to continue growing it. Far better to die, than to break political correctness and survive.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:And yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure that our proportion is a lot higher once you take into account the emissions from the manufacture and transportation of items destined for sale and consumption in the US.

    2. Re:And yet by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 5, Informative

      Wow, what a cheap shot! Way to make it America's fault...again. I've got some bad news for you, and it comes from one of your own high priests. Close your eyes...this is going to hurt.

      The fact is that even if every American citizen biked to work, carpooled to school, used only solar panels to power their homes, if we each planted a dozen trees, if we somehow eliminated all of our domestic greenhouse emissions, guess what â" that still wouldnâ(TM)t be enough to offset the carbon pollution coming from the rest of the world.
      If all the industrial nations went down to zero emissions...it wouldnâ(TM)t be enough, not when more than 65 percent of the worldâ(TM)s carbon pollution comes from the developing world.
      -- John Kerry, at the Paris summit, 2015

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    3. Re:And yet by HiThere · · Score: 1

      If you live in the US it is appropriate the scream that the US is responsible. This doesn't deny that China is doing more (though they are improving).

      FWIW, if you drive a car you are not only responsible for the emissions that you create when you drive, but also for the emissions created during the manufacture, and later during it's disposal. So while the manufacturers are responsible, SO ARE THE USERS.

      That said, if the US continues to decrease Carbon emissions, then the main problem will be consumption of goods which are polluting to create or to discard. It's improper to not count external costs.

      Do I think China needs to do more? Yes. And there should be an import tax that reflects the amount of gaseous/oceanic pollution that was externalized during the creation of any purchased merchandise. And an additional purchase tax that accounts for the cost of disposal. (When glass was expensive, companies did this via deposits on bottles that were large enough that people would bother to return them for the deposit. Something analogous seems appropriate.)

      Unfortunately, I acknowledge that my proposals would be more difficult to implement than to state. China has a history of importing coal plants with chimney scrubbers to clean the emissions, and having the installers intentionally neglect to put them into operation because they would result in the plant needing more fuel to generate the same amount of power. So determining the amount of externalized Carbon emissions might be difficult when imposing the tax.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    4. Re:And yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      china has already surpassed the US in the rate at which it greens its economy. it is in fact the largest producer and consumer of renewable energy and will be for all time. just some food for thought.

    5. Re:And yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      USA: 15% emissions, 4.5% population. Yeah, that's out of whack.

      China: 33% emissions, 19% population. Also out of whack, not as far per head as the USA.

      If china polluted at the USA per head level it would be a disaster. You can't just compare countries directly, or you're indirectly screwing over large countries (like the USA) as there are about 190 countries in the world. By that logic the USA is waaaaaaaay over its budget. Pollution per head of population is a much fairer metric, and on this both the USA and China are out of line, with the USA producing over 3x its relative pollution, China just over 1.5x.

    6. Re:And yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you notice how he failed to address the boatload of goods that the US buys form China, i.e. the exact thing the GP brought up?

    7. Re:And yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sorry to burst your bubble, but the US plays a big part in carbon dioxide emissions. Of course, any one country can't make a difference alone but the US has A LOT of impact. And Kerry's quote may be technically correct but the developing world's population is 83% compared to the total [1]. That means that the developed countries still produce more emissions per capita. And that doesn't even take account for factories that are in developing nations that produce stuff for consumption in the US and EU.

      The US has very high per capita carbon dioxide emissions. More than double than that of Chine and the EU. Its' country emissions are 2nd after China's but China has 4 times the population [2]. Kerry is full of BS here. Sure, if I stop using my 4000cc petrol car and my AC 24/7 it wont change much, since I'm only 0.000000000001% of the global emissions.

      [1] http://www.prb.org/pdf13/2013-population-data-sheet_eng.pdf
      [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions

    8. Re:And yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      China also has 4.3 times the population of the USA and they basically are slowly emerging from the industrial age the USA had a few centuries earlier. So it is rather shocking that per person the USA has over double the emissions of China.

    9. Re:And yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah....cause they're building our stuff.

    10. Re:And yet by NetNed · · Score: 1

      Hey, don't forget those pesky volcanoes that we need to get on board to clean the climate. Going to take a lot of virgin sacrifices to appease their emissions!

    11. Re:And yet by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      which per capita is irrelevant. the reason is that ppl do NOT make the majority of the co2 or even the choices on these. Businesses and gov do. As such, GDP matters more.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    12. Re:And yet by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Volcanoes are a rounding error compared to human emissions, which is fortunate. Otherwise, we'd have to depopulate Slashdot to find enough virgins to sacrifice.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    13. Re:And yet by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Jeez NetNed, I can't believe anyone is still trying to use volcano emissions of CO2 as a factor. That they are only around 1% as compared to anthropogenic CO2 emissions is well known and has been for over a decade.

    14. Re:And yet by NetNed · · Score: 1

      Oh you mean the figure that keeps going up and up? I can't believe you haven't read up on this since the 1992 report. It's called google, you can use it to find out how outdated your own information is.

    15. Re:And yet by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      So I Googled "volcanic emissions of carbon dioxide" and the scientific studies it finds all say that volcanic emissions of CO2 are about 1% of human emissions.

  13. Raw data? Methods? by jxander · · Score: 0, Troll

    One thing I see missing from all of these Global Warming articles is any semblance of actual science.

    Where are the sensors physically located? How many are there? Have they ever moved? Been replaced? Are the temperatures an aggregate? Mean? Median? What raw data are they gathering? Are these the same sensors that spawned the last 10 "hottest day ever" stories? Or was that a different set? How often are they recording? Etc. Etc. Etc. I'm sorry but a single number does not adequately convey the wildly varied data across nearly 200 million square miles of land and sea over a 31 day period. You just can't tell me that this impossibly massive amount of data filters down to "113," and that's supposed to scare me?

    I'm not trying to debunk climate change or AGW here. But I can only see so many of these "hottest month/year/day ever," in short succession before I start to question the validity of the science behind it all.

    --
    This signature is false.
    1. Re:Raw data? Methods? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then do your research. I'm sure that most of the information that you are requesting is readily available in various scholarly journals. If, on the other hand, you expect to find that detailed information in articles aimed at the general public, well, good luck.

    2. Re:Raw data? Methods? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then go and look it up. Seriously, if you question the science it's a simple google search away. Unless you just want to complain about not seeing it.

      GO LOOK IT UP!

      google.com
      wikipedia.org
      nasa.gov

      It's even referenced in the article at http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp

      Questioning the science isn't what you're doing, you're complaining, without spending even the most basic amount of effort to get the data and look at it for yourself.

      "I'm sorry but a single number does not adequately convey the wildly varied data across nearly 200 million square miles of land and sea over a 31 day period."

      Did you even read the article or click on the referenced link with an entire table of data linked in the very first line of the piece?
      Dig into the data if you want, but please shut up about not trusting the data without spending a second actually looking at it.

    3. Re:Raw data? Methods? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > One thing I see missing from all of these Global Warming articles is any semblance of actual science.

      It took me two clicks to reach this, for your study, brainiac.
      http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/

    4. Re: Raw data? Methods? by bloodstar · · Score: 5, Informative

      Here, let me get you started... A nice climate archive to start https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-... If you want to do some validation checking you can go through all the individual stations and check the data. One place is: https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/data... Another if you don't trust NOAA and want the absolute rawest data: http://mesowest.utah.edu/ Some of your questions on why certain corrections were made are explained here: https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/moni... And I find it incredibly sad that you think very little science has been done. That couldn't be further from the truth. Take the time to read some papers and do some of your own independent research.

      --
      "The bass, the rock, the mic, the treble. I like my coffee black, just like my metal" - Mindless Self Indulgence
    5. Re:Raw data? Methods? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... before I start to question the validity of the science behind it all.

      So there's no point in arguing with you because you have just stated that if the data contradicts your preconceptions it is the data that must be wrong. Talk about no semblance of actual science.

    6. Re: Raw data? Methods? by zapadnik · · Score: 1

      So, that's the (adjusted, and increasingly, ***estimated***) surface data subject to the Urban Heat Island effect and a bunch of other things.

      Now, AGW theory states that the lower tropical troposphere will have a temperature rise before the surface does. Could you please tell us all what the UAH and RSS satellites are showing?

      Furthermore, this year is an El Nino year. It is fully expected that the global temperature will increase a a result of NATURAL effects. And the last century and a half has been a temperature rise after the end of the Little Ice Age, but we're still colder today than the Minoan, Roman and Medieval Warm Periods.

      Here is some data that might help you put the NATURAL temperature variability into perspective
      http://jonova.s3.amazonaws.com...

      Given that the IPCC's computed (as in guessed) ECS and TCS and too high by a factor of 4 compared to the observed value (because they guessed at the effect of water vapor and got the sign and magnitude wrong) then anyone who believes human-emitted CO2 is the dominant driver of Climate Change should be given a 'Flat Earth' award for their refusal to follow the Scientific Method and look at the observations which falsify the AGW hypothesis at this time.

    7. Re:Raw data? Methods? by Maow · · Score: 1

      One thing I see missing from all of these Global Warming articles is any semblance of actual science.

      Then you aren't even trying to look. Yet here it is, handed to you on a virtual silver platter: Bloodstar has posted lots of links for you, and I'll contribute one about the models scientists use:

      Why trust climate models? It’s a matter of simple science

      Steve Easterbrook, a professor of computer science at the University of Toronto, has been studying climate models for several years. “I'd done a lot of research in the past studying the development of commercial and open source software systems, including four years with NASA studying the verification and validation processes used on their spacecraft flight control software,” he told Ars.

      When Easterbrook started looking into the processes followed by climate modeling groups, he was surprised by what he found. “I expected to see a messy process, dominated by quick fixes and muddling through, as that's the typical practice in much small-scale scientific software. What I found instead was a community that takes very seriously the importance of rigorous testing, and which is already using most of the tools a modern software development company would use (version control, automated testing, bug tracking systems, a planned release cycle, etc.).”

      “I was blown away by the testing process that every proposed change to the model has to go through,” Easterbrook wrote. “Basically, each change is set up like a scientific experiment, with a hypothesis describing the expected improvement in the simulation results. The old and new versions of the code are then treated as the two experimental conditions. They are run on the same simulations, and the results are compared in detail to see if the hypothesis was correct. Only after convincing each other that the change really does offer an improvement is it accepted into the model baseline.”

    8. Re: Raw data? Methods? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      So, that's the (adjusted, and increasingly, ***estimated***)

      All mesurements of everything are estimated, without exception.

      surface data subject to the Urban Heat Island effect and a bunch of other things.

      So we should pretent that urban heat islands don't exist?

      Furthermore, this year is an El Nino year. It is fully expected that the global temperature will increase a a result of NATURAL effects.

      Yes? And?

      but we're still colder today than the Minoan, Roman and Medieval Warm Periods.

      So what? That doesn't mean warming isn't happening.

      anyone who believes human-emitted CO2 is the dominant driver of Climate Change

      Nice strawman. Clearly the Sun is the dominant factor. As the sun warms, sometime in the next 4 billion years, the surface of the earth will become so hot it'll be molten. Then, if we escape being consumed, and the sun turns into a white dwarf, the earth will end up and a cold, bare, desolate planet.

      That doesn't mean however, that CO2 isn't having a measurable effect right now.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    9. Re:Raw data? Methods? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not trying to debunk climate change or AGW here.

      This is how you identify the climate truthers. They know their persistent denial that anything is happening makes them a laughing stock, so now they're in cloaking mode. "I'm just a rational guy asking questions" is the new mantra. You can tell they're not a normal guy asking questions because the questions they ask have been asked and answered millions of times, and the answers are readily available for anyone who cares to look them up.

    10. Re: Raw data? Methods? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, its not the Urban Heat Island effect: https://www.skepticalscience.c...

      Urban and rural regions show the same warming trend; the trend is the same for both urban and rural groups over any of the periods. Even in the case of developing urban areas, when averaged out over large areas, urban heat island has little impact on the warming trend.

      IE, if you exclude all the urban data from graph, it doesn't change it. It still shows the same trend.

    11. Re: Raw data? Methods? by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      ... but we're still colder today than the Minoan, Roman and Medieval Warm Periods.

      I'd really like to see you justify that statement with some serious cites of scientific papers.

      (But didn't we go over this a couple of threads back and you kept throwing things at me that weren't global in scope? So nevermind.)

    12. Re: Raw data? Methods? by zapadnik · · Score: 1

      Where is your data? of, and if you want citations I suggest you learn to read. It is right in front of your face - but apparently this is too hard for you. Let's see if you can work it out, because the fact you can't shows how hilarious your ignorant posture is.

    13. Re: Raw data? Methods? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      -the effect of el nino on the GLOBAL AVERAGE is tiny. even with el nino it still would have been the hottest year.
      http://www.slate.com/content/d...

      -the urban heat island effect isn't a factor. IE, remove all urban stations from the data and the trend still remains the same.
      https://www.skepticalscience.c...

      -your continual pointing to the RSS satellites show only that you are ignorant of what that data is and what it is capable of showing, let alone its relation to the overall picture from all the data.
      https://www.skepticalscience.c...

      -the corrections actually reduce the amount of warming shown in the data, by ~20%.

      -there are no observations which "falsify AGW all the time". there are only cranks like yourself who misinterpret the data (deliberately) in order to spread misinformation.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    14. Re: Raw data? Methods? by zapadnik · · Score: 1

      -the effect of el nino on the GLOBAL AVERAGE is tiny. even with el nino it still would have been the hottest year. http://www.slate.com/content/d... [slate.com]

      Why don't you add the missing bit? "Hottest year since modern surface records began in the 19th Century". Which is completely expected given the recovery since the Little Ice Age. Not the hottest year within the last 500 years, nor 1000, nor 2000. Look again at the REALITY that warmunists must deny:
      http://jonova.s3.amazonaws.com...

      Please tell us wall why the Vikings used to farm in Greenland, but are now buried under permafrost? could it be that today is COLDER than it used to be, and we are only getting back to relatively normal temperatures - and all of this is ****NATURAL****.

      ROFL you think "SkepticalScience" is anything except blinkered rants from eco-loons who deliberately ignore data (that is, REALITY) they don't like. They don't have neutral peer-review of their drivel.

      -your continual pointing to the RSS satellites show only that you are ignorant of what that data is and what it is capable of showing, let alone its relation to the overall picture from all the data. https://www.skepticalscience.c... [skepticalscience.com]

      BOOM! here you show you know NOTHING about the CAGW/AGW Hypothesis that predicts that the lower tropic troposphere will show warming before anything else, including the sea and surface. The predictions of this hypothesis are NOT observed (and the UAH and RSS satellites agree with each other, and the tens of thousands of weather balloons, and the well-sited surface stations, etc). The Scientific Method REQUIRES you to accept the Null Hypothesis instead of AGW based on the OBSERVATIONS (that is, reality) because the specific prediction of AGW is not observed (in fact, the counter is observed). Did you not know this?

      -the urban heat island effect isn't a factor. IE, remove all urban stations from the data and the trend still remains the same. https://www.skepticalscience.c... [skepticalscience.com]

      COMPLETELY FALSE. The apparent surface warming decreases significantly when UHI affected stations and the increasing proportion of ESTIMATED data is taken away. Here's a discussion of the developing story, that has been improved by wamists critiquing it:
      http://wattsupwiththat.com/201...

      -the corrections actually reduce the amount of warming shown in the data, by ~20%.

      Here you show a complete inability to reason statistically. Who cares if the absolute level is reduced? the 'corrections' introduce a systematic effect that cools the past and warms the present - artificially introducing a trend in the first time derivative. But you are not smart enough to see this and instead trot out a deception you were unable to see through.

      -there are no observations which "falsify AGW all the time". there are only cranks like yourself who misinterpret the data (deliberately) in order to spread misinformation.

      It is you spreading disinformation. It is you who merely parrots talking points because you don't understand the specific predictions of AGW and how the observational data have falsified this hypothesis. You refuse to follow the Scientific Method when it conflicts with your cultural Marxist "Progressive" Narrative. Even your byline "America, shining city on a hill, was built upon progressive ideals. Conservatism has only ever diminished its luster." shows how colossally ignorant you are of economics and American history. But hey, you are prepared to deny th

  14. Typical climate propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And by "recorded history" they're referring to the time temperature records begin, which is 1978 - less than forty years ago. Of course, using the expression "recorded history," which to most people means something like the 5-10,000 of civilization, makes this sound a lot more alarmist. Which I'm sure was the intent.

    1. Re: Typical climate propaganda by mixed_signal · · Score: 1

      Where do you get 1978 from? You clearly have never read any of the literature. Go enlighten yourself. An IPCC report or the NOAA sites are good starting points.

    2. Re: Typical climate propaganda by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      Actually, those of us have read a lot. And one of the things we are aware of is that they are using various temperature record sets. Be it modern satellites or glacial cores. First, in all measurements of the past, assumptions are made. Second, in trying to overlay historical data, modern data, and pre-historic data, there is a general lack of compatible metrics. To stay with the recent English vs Metric. We're trying to match an English bolt with a Metric nut.

      How they decided to match up the modern, historical, and ancient data sets was based on human opinons. Thus rather flawed. There is actual proof of these flaws, in the fact that a) their models have always failed to predict and b) we have human anthropological historical records that show them to be incorrect. (This is why they later recanted on the medieval warm period.)

      Also, all of it is moot, if we do not address the scope of what warm weather entails. Firstly, colder climates result in the following. Reduction in the number of flora and fauna species, the formation of deserts (because Earth's moisture is trapped in the poles). Hotter climates, result in an increase of diversity of flora and fauna, increase in global vegetation and a reduction in long ranging deserts.

      These are all fact that are seldom discussed in this debate. Nor is the fact that during the cretaceous period the temperature was 20 degrees hotter than today. Life still thrived.

      The truth is, humans may have to adapt and face consequences of a warming climate. But Earth and life will adapt as it always has. Humans are more disturbed by a change in status quo. But global warming is far more tolerable and of less consequence than a global cooling, glacier age. Which would result in starvation of millions.

    3. Re: Typical climate propaganda by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      And the effects of anthropogenic global warming, possible collapse of our global civilization, major shifts in agricultural regions may result in the starvation of billions.

    4. Re: Typical climate propaganda by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      *sighs*

      Actually, global warming is far less alarming than global cooling. But most of the extreme weather events that are pointed to for global warming are in fact dwarfed by recorded activities. California had greater droughts, and also a super flood in the 1800s.

      But these historical bits are ignored.

    5. Re: Typical climate propaganda by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Global cooling is nothing anyone has to worry about for thousands of years.

  15. It's the trend. by Layzej · · Score: 2

    When we have a cold snap the global warming types say "it's just weather"

    The last time we had a "coldest month in recorded history" was 1893.

    so when we have a warm month here and there I believe I can rightfully say that "it's just weather".

    Our global temperature is the sum of a secular warming trend and natural variability. Any new "hottest month" record is going to be the result of both together. Remove the secular warming trend and we would not have had a record. Remove natural variability and every month would be a record.

    And yeah, nukes sound great. Let's get building.

    1. Re:It's the trend. by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Well, to be fair, you can pretty much say that a single month is of no significant importance and irrelevant in the scale of things. So, for simplicity sake, it is just weather. Or, really, it's just a month of average temperatures across the globe and might not even have been fully refined. I'd be surprised (I didn't read the article) if all the adjustments have been made already and passed around for review.

      Just like if it were a cold month, it's just a month. By itself, it's nearly meaningless. Lots of people in here seem to be trying to assign more importance to it than it has. It's a human tendency, it supports their beliefs. The same thing happens when someone's got cold temperatures for a few days. But, really, it's statistically insignificant - by itself. It's not even, by itself, indicative of a greater trend. Combined with other date, there's a trend towards higher temperatures, more fluctuation, and isolated weather extremes with increased abnormalities from the historical norms.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    2. Re:It's the trend. by Layzej · · Score: 1

      Yeah. If you're a climate nerd it's exciting to see such a large excursion, but by itself it doesn't really tell you much. http://woodfortrees.org/plot/g...

  16. Cold! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where i live it has been impressively cold this january, more so than usual. So is it a new ice age or global warming?? I dont really care anymore ;)

  17. icehouse earth by emil · · Score: 3, Informative

    This raises the question of climate change. It should be conveyed and understood that we are in a phase of âoeicehouse earthâ that is abnormally cool for the planet. While this phase has lasted the entirety of human civilization and would have drastic consequences for many species should it end, it must be understood that temperatures and CO2 levels have normally been far higher. âoeWe find that CO2 emissions [during the Cretaceous] resulting from super-plume tectonics could have produced atmospheric CO2 levels from 3.7 to 14.7 times the modern pre-industrial value of 285 ppm.â http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/... âoeWe are talking about carbon dioxide levels 6 to 10 times the present carbon dioxide level. When you have high amounts of carbon dioxide in an atmosphere up to a certain limit, which is considerably higher than it is now, the result is green plants grow very much better... And it is precisely at this time that the recovery from the first dinosaur extinction takes place. When the super plumes come and carbon dioxide increases, and the oxygen correspondingly increases as a result of photosynthesis... And yet the super plumes did not last forever and they started to die at the end of Cretaceous.... In any event, large dinosaurs really required to be living in an oxygen tent. An atmosphere in the neighborhood of 35 percent oxygen would be considerably more compatible with large dinosaurs than one in the neighborhood of 28. And so this suggested to me that this was perhaps a significant reason for the first dinosaur extinction, and probably one of the major factors in the second, the terminal dinosaur extinction, other than the birds. It also neatly tied together all of the really bizarre features about the Cretaceous... The Cretaceous is clearly a green house period as opposed to the present ice house that we have... Well, the rich carbon dioxide of course provides for a much greater biogenic diversity.â http://www.ucl.ac.uk/.../sloan... âoeThe earth is currently in an icehouse stage, as ice sheets are present on both poles and glacial periods have occurred at regular intervals over the past million years... Earth is more commonly placed in a greenhouse state throughout the epochs, and the Earth has been in this state for approximately 80% of the past 500 million years... Permanent ice is actually a rare phenomenon in the history of the Earth, occurring only during the 20% of the time that the planet is under an icehouse effect.â https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    1. Re:icehouse earth by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 5, Informative

      Wow, a long comment that's mostly correct, but seems to mostly be irrelevant.

      The main point-- that the Earth right now is in the middle of an ice age is indeed accurate. Earth is much cooler than it is on the average-- in fact, most of the time, Earth doesn't have frozen water at the polar caps!

      And the climate was indeed much warmer (along with much higher levels of CO_2) during much of the Cretaceous. Rising CO_2 is NOT going to destroy the world-- the world has functioned just fine with higher temperatures and higher CO_2. It will adapt

      The tricky part is-- we've sort of built our civilization around the climate we currently have. Flooding the seacoast, turning farmland into desert (and tundra into farmland) all these would disrupt our civilization abruptly.

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    2. Re:icehouse earth by Namarrgon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      While true, what you say is not particularly relevant to us today. We've been in the current phase for tens of millions of years, and are unlikely to exit this anytime soon - unless perhaps by our own doing.

      The planetary biosphere may well eventually flourish, in a much warmer climate. But in the short term (hundreds of years, rather than millions), sudden and drastic changes to temperature such as those we are going through now do not give the biosphere sufficient time to adapt, and mass extinctions are likely to result. Further, we humans must also adapt, which will incur significant costs as we migrate our populations & cities, infrastructure and farmlands, to more favourable locations - and likewise, these costs rise fast if we're forced to adapt quickly. Many economic studies have been done on the financial consequences of climate mitigation vs adaption, and most find mitigation to be considerably cheaper.

      If we wanted to encourage a warmer planet, this is far from the optimal way to go about it.

      --
      Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
    3. Re:icehouse earth by janimal · · Score: 2

      The tricky part is-- we've sort of built our civilization around the climate we currently have. Flooding the seacoast, turning farmland into desert (and tundra into farmland) all these would disrupt our civilization abruptly.

      Thinking that this is any different than in prehistoric times is naive. As it turns out, much of Middle East's cities were erected around waterways that no longer exist. They didn't disappear because of man-made climate change. This is not a new problem, only this time around we can influence the rate of change to a small degree. What is debatable is whether the degree of control that we do have is enough to matter, and even if it is, is it good value for money and good use of our limited science/engineering resources relative to bigger problems, like pollution and garbage.

    4. Re:icehouse earth by AlterEager · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Correct... the fallacy that our climate is static is the number 1 reason I dont believe much of this debate

      1. There is no "debate"

      2. No scientist has ever claimed the climate is static.

      the tempa go up, the temps go down, constituent ingredients that make up our atmosphere change,

      No. The temperatures change for reasons. The constituent gases of the atmosphere change for reasons.

      yet Earth keeps on ticking, there is NOTHING we can do for this,

      Well, you are of course totally wrong. We not only can change the climate, we have.

      we ride on the Earth, hang on tight and make whatever adjustments you need to to survive.

      And, in order to survive the adjustment we will have to make is to stop emitting fossil CO2.

    5. Re: icehouse earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ABC News warned us back in 2007 that New York city would be underwater by June 2015. Oddly enough ABC News is still broadcasting from New York City at street level! How do they do it?

    6. Re:icehouse earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The progression of the sun through its main sequence ensures a warming earth, up to its becoming a cinder in 5 billion years. I chuckle to think you believe you can control that.

    7. Re:icehouse earth by danbert8 · · Score: 1

      Define abruptly... How many people live where their parents lived? How many people live or work in a structure more than 50 years old? If you live in the good ol' USA, that number is probably not a large block of the population. It's really hard to imagine not being able to adapt to climate change over the next hundred years considering 100 years ago: WWI was raging, the light switch was invented, and Walter Cronkite was just being born.

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    8. Re:icehouse earth by drewsup · · Score: 0, Troll

      1. There is no "debate"

      2. No scientist has ever claimed the climate is static.
      I never claimed a scientist had, its the chicken little followers that assume it was static, they cannot understand the change is the norm because they were fortunate enough to be born in a relatively stable period.

      No. The temperatures change for reasons. The constituent gases of the atmosphere change for reasons.
      Reasons that are not entirely understood, pointing to a an increase in CO2 that seems to correspond to a rise in temps is a nice reasoned assumption, but there a quite a few other other causes that "may" be factors up to and including the the relative albedo of a much cleaner atmosphere than previous generations had, rotational swing on the galaxy, the suns output, ocean currents etc..The scientists claim its settled, Thats a pretty obnoxious statement considering what we dont know about climate driving events.

      Well, you are of course totally wrong. We not only can change the climate, we have.
      Have we now??? Well, feel free to believe that, I will continue to KNOW that whatever small effect we have on this chunk of rock and water, there will be counter effects built in the natural feed back loop.
      When in doubt...follow the money on global warming scaremongering... who exactly IS profiting.

    9. Re:icehouse earth by AlterEager · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, you are of course totally wrong. We not only can change the climate, we have.

      Have we now??? Well, feel free to believe that, I will continue to KNOW that whatever small effect we have on this chunk of rock and water, there will be counter effects built in the natural feed back loop.

      How do you "know" this? My belief is based on science. Yours, not so much.

      When in doubt...follow the money on global warming scaremongering... who exactly IS profiting.

      Who is profiting from the denial of science? I'd guess it's the people who are funding it, you know, fossil fuel extraction companies.

    10. Re:icehouse earth by SomeoneFromBelgium · · Score: 1

      Ugh. You have it pretty bad, don't you?

      Attached to a report that once again the GLOBAL temperature of the world has broken a record again for the nth consecutive time you say "change? There is no change."

      And you question: who is to profit? Well the current energy producerrs (oil) are to profit from the status quo. Alternative energy producers from a change. Now who has the most money?

    11. Re:icehouse earth by stevelinton · · Score: 1

      On that timescale, there are plenty of ways of controlling that, perhaps most simply moving the Earth,

    12. Re: icehouse earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gigo. I would call bullshit on your statement. Did capernicous and Mann have the same ideas of science? Hardly. Is experimentations science as settled as climate science? Science changes, with the observer, with the observation comes new ideas, that may not fit the mold of settled science. If anything, bad science is a half truth. Like someone calling squirrel to a pack of dogs. To take your eye off reality.

    13. Re:icehouse earth by rally2xs · · Score: 2

      "And, in order to survive the adjustment we will have to make is to stop emitting fossil CO2."

      Want to see you achieve this. We absolutely have to drive cars to get to and from work, recreation, etc. If we don't go to these things, those that are providing the work and the recreation will go out of business, and be on welfare with everyone else. We absolutely have to have fossil fueled transportation bring us goods and services, we just don't know how to do it any other way. We have a population that is artifically high, and depends on fossil fuels to exist. If we don't burn fossil fuels, probably 90% of our population dies, and the only survivors are the cannibals.

      So, if you really want to attack this, get your PHD in materials science and electrochemistry and get your butt into a lab and invent for us the magic battery to enable electric cars, trucks, locomotives, airplanes, and ships. The magic battery has to be cheap and small and cheap and high capacity and cheap and quick charging and cheap and power dense and cheap. We don't have anything like that, and until we get it, we're not going to be able to run everything off the grid that hopefully will be more easily powered with non-CO2 sources such as wind, solar, nuclear, geothermal, tidal, etc. That can eventually work, but only if someone invents the magic battery.

    14. Re:icehouse earth by AlterEager · · Score: 1

      Want to see you achieve this. We absolutely have to drive cars to get to and from work, recreation, etc.

      We do? How odd, I don't own a car, I wonder how I do these things?

      Who ever said that getting over this problem would be easy?

    15. Re:icehouse earth by rally2xs · · Score: 1

      You're being deliberately dense to apply your rare situation of being within walking distance of either everything you need, or within walking distance of public transportation. About 99% of everyone else has to drive, or ride in a car driven by someone else, to get where they need to go. I'm 20 miles out in the freakin' boonies. I can't get where I want to go by walking or even bike-riding, I'm not going to be able to pull it off at the age of 68. If I could ride a bike to town and back (40 miles) I wouldn't, and all the businesses I support with my purchases would lack my support, and probably go out of business like I said. And you're not going to be doing farming without fossil fuels, you're not going to be transporting the food without fossil fuels, and you that think you're existence is fossil-fuel-free are going to arrive at your Starbucks and there's going to be no coffee, no food at the grocery, and so forth.

      So, be sane for a moment and admit our population depends 100% on the burning of fossil fuels, for now. Again, if you want to change that, invent for us the magic battery.

    16. Re:icehouse earth by silentcoder · · Score: 0

      >who exactly IS profiting.

      Nobody is profiting from global warming more than coal and oil companies. Hell ExonMobil actually scheduled the start of their arctic drilling to be delayed by well over a decade from when they first decided to do it - to take ADVANTAGE of global warming. See glaciers melting makes arctic drilling cheaper and more profitable. There are places they now drill 8 months a year which, in 1990, was only accessible for 3 months a year.
      So back in 1990 - they said "If we wait until after 2010 - we can make a lot more money from arctic drilling" - which is exactly what they did.

      You may not believe in man made climate change, but those who profit from the cause of it most certainly DO believe in it - and what's more, they caused the problem and they are now profiting FROM the problem, at least in part enabled by the fact that their constant lies to the public (i.e. the flat out 180 contradiction between what they knew and disccussed internally and what they said publicly) has allowed them to keep their plans for profiting from the effects quite secret as well. The fact that this is profit from misery for everybody else does not bother them in the least.

      And unlike YOUR crazy conspiracy theory - this is not a matter of conjecture, we have physical documentary PROOF of everything I just said - including the original internal Enron planning documents relating to Arctic Drilling that advised waiting until global warming had melted the glaciers more so they can make more money doing it.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    17. Re:icehouse earth by AlterEager · · Score: 1

      About 99% of everyone else has to drive, or ride in a car driven by someone else, to get where they need to go.

      Really? You think everyone in the world has access to a car?

      And you're not going to be doing farming without fossil fuels, you're not going to be transporting the food without fossil fuels, and you that think you're existence is fossil-fuel-free are going to arrive at your Starbucks and there's going to be no coffee, no food at the grocery, and so forth.

      Whether it's hard or not has exactly no influence on whether it's necessary.

      I don't drink Starbucks -- I like coffee.

    18. Re:icehouse earth by Raenex · · Score: 1

      1. There is no "debate"

      Yes there is. It's just that some would like to shut it down and claim "the science is settled". There are debates regarding models, measurements, history, and policy, just off the top of my head.

      And, in order to survive the adjustment we will have to make is to stop emitting fossil CO2.

      That's bullshit. Climate predictions say we'd have to deal with sea level rise and changing weather patterns, which is disruptive, but it's not going to wipe us out. But there is no "debate", right Mr. Alarmist?

    19. Re:icehouse earth by rally2xs · · Score: 1

      I'm talking about the USA. Yeah, other countries are small enough, most of 'em, to build public transport that allows more people not to have cars. But they still transport stuff by trucks to get it to markets, as, unlike the US which has the best freight rail on the planet, they' re using their rails to transport people instead. And of course there's lotsa countries that aren't modernized at all, and people live in mud huts and subsistence farm. But OUR population is artificially dense, and will mostly die off without fossil fuels.

    20. Re:icehouse earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who is profiting from the denial of science? I'd guess it's the people who are funding it, you know, fossil fuel extraction companies.

      At a first guess, I would say all of the people who are claiming that climate change is "settled science". Until the IPCC can take its models based on CO2 -- and only CO2 -- as the primary driver of global climate, run them backwards, and get temperature 'predictions' matching both the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age, my considered opinion is that there are other, more significant, sources of climate variation than the CO2 level, and that as long as the IPCC denies that there are any significant sources of climate variation besides the CO2 level, their models -- and therefore their doom-and-gloom predictions -- aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

    21. Re:icehouse earth by AlterEager · · Score: 1

      1. There is no "debate"

      Yes there is. It's just that some would like to shut it down and claim "the science is settled". There are debates regarding models, measurements, history, and policy, just off the top of my head.

      No, there is no "debate" about models or measurements or history. Science doesn't work by "debate". All those people who persist on denying the science are just masturbating.

      There can and should be debate about policy. Unfortunately the very people who should be involved in this debate spend all their time trying to pretend that the science doesn't exist.

    22. Re:icehouse earth by Raenex · · Score: 1

      No, there is no "debate" about models or measurements or history. Science doesn't work by "debate". All those people who persist on denying the science are just masturbating.

      You've clearly never seen science in action then, or paid any attention to the details of climate science. There's always been, and always will be, debate in science, including climate science. If the answers were cut and dry the science would be easy. It isn't.

    23. Re:icehouse earth by AlterEager · · Score: 1

      No, there is no "debate" about models or measurements or history. Science doesn't work by "debate". All those people who persist on denying the science are just masturbating.

      You've clearly never seen science in action then, or paid any attention to the details of climate science. There's always been, and always will be, debate in science, including climate science. If the answers were cut and dry the science would be easy. It isn't.

      No. "Debate" is just arguing about things. In order to do science you need evidence. You need to do experiments, write papers, show the flaws in other theories. You don't just blather on about international conspiracies and "follow the money" and other irrelevant shit.

    24. Re:icehouse earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's plenty of debate about models (that don't accurately predict anything), measurements (rings from one tree represent the temperature record from how much of North America?), and history ("There was no medieval warm period" was one famous quote). The fact that you don't want to acknowledge those debates because they contradict your new religion doesn't mean they don't exist.

    25. Re:icehouse earth by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      There is no debate, and there never was one.

      There are only idiots in american, America based, media that claim 'there is one', 'should be one' or 'nothing is settled' etc.

      That the planet goes CO2 wise downhill we *know* since 1870, that people living and can experience it, we know since the early 1970s.

      Everyone older than 16 or so who has not 'witnessed' himself dramatic changes in climate must be either living in an isolated region, or be extraordinary dumb.

      Sorry, to say that so bluntly.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    26. Re:icehouse earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no control over climate change. Climate is the result of land mass location, ocean currents and wind patterns plus the state of the Sun.
      None of which are in the slightest control of us. To state that we are responsible and can control the climate is hubris.

    27. Re:icehouse earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it happened abruptly.

      The fact is sea levels are rising at 1mm/year if you look at most tide guages. If you believe NASAs estimates it is 2-3mm/year. Or about 7" by the end of the century which is about what it did in the last century and the one before. There is no evidence of acceleration of sea level rise.

      Almost all the nation islands that people said would drown under rising seas have actually GAINED land. Check it out. Yeah. I didn't know this. Nobody bothers to mention that none of these islands is actually sinking.

      Lastly we just learned in the last week that parched earth has been soaking up so much more water that it has actually reversed sea level rise by 0.7mm/year.

      This is a huge overrated overhyped scare. How much do you want to spend to save beachfront property owners 100 years from now? For me. ZILCH.

    28. Re: icehouse earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow are you a douche. You failed to answer anything asked and instead reaffirmed how big of a self righteous prick you are.

      Please tell me more about how you consume no fossil fuels.

      Is all of your food locally produced using only equipment and fertilizers available locally that are solely transported by cart and horse?

      Is all of the electricity you use made from 100 percent green sources? And if it is was that equipment created, transported, and installed without the use of fossil fuels?

      What about the rest of your consumables and electronics? Even the toilet paper you use relies on fossil fuels.

      The rational among us realize there is a better way and changes can be made. We also recognize that as of right now completely doing away with fossil fuels is impossible.

      People like you do nothing to help the problem. Sure you may feel like you are helping within your small circle of irrational douche bag friends, but in reality by not facing the truth of the matter and admitting our present society could not exist without fossil fuels you do a disservice to your own cause by being dismissed by the majority as a self righteous prick with no grasp on reality.

    29. Re:icehouse earth by turkeyfish · · Score: 1

      The critical issue is what are the biological effects. As far as the atoms in inorganic molecules, they can handle extremes rather well without any complaints. For organic molecules in living systems the situation is quite different and different living systems have a very wide diversity of responses as is evidenced by what survived the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum. Survival is not only a function of the amount of change that can be "adapted to", it is also a function of how fast organisms can evolve to reach new higher levels of adaptation in the presence of events that exceed the ability to adapt, except for brief periods. Too fast and we don't see evolution. Rather we see extinction.

      If one looks at the fossil record in North America before and after the Paleocene-Eocene thermal maximum. Several things stand out. What were once broad redwood forests throughout much of Western North America before the maximum, rapidly became palm and palmetto forests afterward until Pleistocene glaciation. About 80% of the North American mammal fauna that preceded the maximum was replaced (ie went extinct).

      Now keeping in mind that even though the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal maximum was but a brief spike in geological times, it nonetheless lasted at a minimum of 6,000 to 10,000 years. Consequently, it was rather of long duration relative to the Anthropocene global-warming, which has occurred with the past 200 years. Importantly, the rate of heating at present is about 36 time more rapid than the rate of heating that occurred during the Paleocene-Eocene thermal maximum.

      Given that we are mammals, we might reasonably ask, how we expect to fare. Clearly, there are many ecological dimensions associated with such an answer, as the range of climate that we depend upon for our particular survival, has many components. One major component will be the availability of water. In a globally warmed world, we can expect two extremes to intensify. More evaporation over a planet whose surface is 2/3 water will mean far more water in the atmosphere, and so relatively coastal regions will see much greater rainfall, in many cases torrential during brief periods of time that can dramatically impact agriculture that depends on relatively stable periods for plant growth. Too much rain can wash away topsoil and the plants themselves or bury the plants in mud. In relatively terrestrial regions, we will see much higher soil temperatures that will tend to enforce regional high pressures leading to relatively less rain. Indeed, much of Central South America, Africa, the Middle East, and Asia are steadily drying out. Presently, the data suggest that this latter aspect has great potential to dramatically reduce world populations in these areas. A recent study suggests that humans are at considerable risk in the very near future, even in this very early stage of Anthropocene warming. Once montane glaciers that make it possible for rivers to flow during summer months are gone, this risk will rise dramatically, so much agriculture as it now exists will not be possible in areas like the Great Plains and parts of China and India that are currently regarded as "breadbaskets".

      The irony is that in relatively coastal areas, where the bulk of the population lives, these regions are highly dependent upon oceanic productivity. About 50% of all protein consumed by humans is from the oceans. Unfortunately, with Anthropocene global-warming tightly coupled with high levels of carbon dioxide and the propensity of carbon dioxide to dissolve readily in seawater, the pH of the oceans is dramatically decreasing. In a few hundred years, the oceans will reach the threshold where calcium carbonate production will be virtually impossible. This is already true in many relatively shallow areas of the North Pacific under certain oceanographic conditions, where wind driven upwelling can effectively end oyster production by killing all spat. Since the vast majority of marine

    30. Re:icehouse earth by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Real scientists debate things all the time, such as interpretation of evidence, design of experiments, merits of theories, etc. That you try to dismiss "debate" as just conspiracy theories is an error on your part.

    31. Re: icehouse earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wow logic amazing. something the libs can't understand.

    32. Re:icehouse earth by turkeyfish · · Score: 1

      Exactly, the question comes down to whether or not we can make "adjustments" fast enough to keep up with global climate change as it begins to express its exponential character. Remember, it is exponential because temperature rise is a function of the accumulation of carbon dioxide. We particularly need to concern ourselves with changes that WILL come if temperatures rise too high (loss of reflectance in the Arctic, increase of carbon from the disappearance of permafrost, peat bogs, and rain forests, and sublimation of marine methane clathrates). We don't want to get to these threshold levels of heating, because once we do, no amount of "adjustment" will be sufficient.

    33. Re:icehouse earth by turkeyfish · · Score: 1

      " but there a quite a few other other causes that "may" be factors up to and including the the relative albedo of a much cleaner atmosphere than previous generations had, rotational swing on the galaxy, the suns output, ocean currents etc.."

      The obvious problem with this line of reasoning is that there is NO evidence that anything other than the accumulation of carbon dioxide can explain the cause of global warming, despite the wishes of those invested in the fossil fuels industry.

      Zero evidence that the atmosphere as a whole is "cleaner", in fact satellite observations strongly indicate that in most parts of the world the opposite is true. You don't have to go to Beijing to see this, you can simply observe that about 20% of the atmospheric pollution in Washington State comes from China.

      Zero evidence that "rotational swings" of the Milky Way are involved, since the gravitational effects of movements of extra-solar mass are far too small and have changed far too slowly to account for the rapid rise in global temperatures over the past 200 years.

      Zero evidence that changes in solar activity play a role, because the magnitude of the variation of change of insolation over the past 200 years is far too small to account for the large change in global mean temperatures.

      To make matters worse for deniers, the change in isotopic composition of carbon dioxide is entirely consistent with the preponderance of all new carbon dioxide in the atmosphere in the past 200 years since global-climate warming has been observed is consistent with an origin from fossil fuels (not to mention entirely consistent with the amount of oil and coal produced during this same period).

      The probability that there "MAY" be an alternate explanation for global warming other than as a result of the accumulation of carbon dioxide that is greater than zero is very close to 0.00000000000001.

    34. Re:icehouse earth by Raenex · · Score: 1

      There is a debate. Some debate positions are more intelligent than others. The black and white stance you take is on the less intelligent end.

    35. Re:icehouse earth by andydouble07 · · Score: 1

      rotational swing on the galaxy

      I almost laughed myself do death reading this. You should really put a warning at the beginning of your post.

    36. Re: icehouse earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Everything you said above is incorrect.
          1. If there was no debate everyone would believe the earth to be hotter than it's ever been before despite the everyday observations to the contrary. We would also not be still having record-breaking cold it would be record breaking heat.
          2. Most of the scientists behind the global warming brainwash have claimed that the Earth's climate was very stable until modern times. Most notable was Michael Mann, the author of the hockey stick diagram which has now been thoroughly debunked if you've been paying any attention at all to it.
        If the left actually wanted carbon free energy we could have had it 40 years ago had they not gotten it stopped due to their unscientific emotions about it. I'm talking about nuclear power. It is safer than flying in an airplane, far safer than driving in a car, safer than crossing the street. Modern reactor designs actually can process their own waste and the waste of other nuclear reactors. This was a non problem with a solution we've had for more than 50 years which the left got stopped. They don't want a solution because they want a problem whereby they can extract money and rights from people to save them from the boogeyman. If it wasn't that they have to invent another false crisis to control and manipulate people using the power of government

    37. Re:icehouse earth by riverat1 · · Score: 2

      Reasons that are not entirely understood, pointing to a an increase in CO2 that seems to correspond to a rise in temps is a nice reasoned assumption, ...

      And there is a nice causal link in CO2's absorption spectrum in the infrared. That is not an assumption.

    38. Re:icehouse earth by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      AGW is happening, and it's going to have bad consequences. There is no ongoing debate about that. (I'm not saying there couldn't be one, but it would require evidence and explanations, and they don't seem to exist.) There are debates about pretty much everything else in the field, because climate is really complicated, nobody knows everything that's going to happen, and because what we should do is a political question, not a scientific.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    39. Re:icehouse earth by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Science works by debate. We observe stuff. Scientists argue about explanatory theories, and try to break everybody else's ideas. Sounds like debate to me.

      Ideally, debate is based on facts, evidence, and sound reasoning, which is why it works so well in science.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    40. Re:icehouse earth by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Now, suppose that we find some new and completely unexpected thing that can cause global warming. Now that we've explained it through interactions between cat fur and manga-related cosplay, we have a new problem: why the heck isn't all that extra CO2 causing warming also? Any theory that says the observed warming isn't caused by CO2 from humans burning fossil fuels has to explain that also.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    41. Re:icehouse earth by TheRealLifeboy · · Score: 1

      Sigh.

      Of course you didn't read any of the material that shows that the postulations that the climate models that are driving the climate change hysteria are built upon are wrong, did you? You also are not aware that the IPCC reports consistently say that we just don't know and that it's all speculation, but then the catastrophist media prophets simply cite the alarmist clauses out of context and all the non-reading (and thus practically illiterate) masses go: "Eeeeh, we're all gonna fry, we're all gonna die!"

      You should start with the classic take of Chicken Little... :-P

    42. Re:icehouse earth by TheRealLifeboy · · Score: 1

      Ugh. You have it pretty bad, don't you?

      Attached to a report that once again the GLOBAL temperature of the world has broken a record again for the nth consecutive time you say "change? There is no change."

      A record for the last 65 years... Uhm, the earth is older than 100 years

      Much older.

      So much older that these puny little 65 years can't even be shown on a timeline that shows the earth's total existence. That alone should tell you that the claim of a record is a nutter's claim. Yes, we may not have had thermometers all around earth at the time of the Romans or earlier, but we have scientific ways of determining a lot of data from the time. So, no, it's not a record. It's a little high in a lot of recent low, that's all.

      And you question: who is to profit? Well the current energy producerrs (oil) are to profit from the status quo. Alternative energy producers from a change. Now who has the most money?

      Of course all incumbents will protect their business as best they can and if a newcomer tries to steal their business with fraud and corruption they are entitled to defend themselves. The fact is that the incumbents also don't have clean hands, so it's a case of Dirty Harry versus Al Capone. The bigger gangsters win.

      So then it all reverts back to science. Not reporting about science. Not court cases where a pseudo scientist tries to sue his critics for defamation. Not newspapers' interpretation of science. It's all about the actual science. And to learn who's talking trash and who's correct, you have to read the research and then the criticism/reviews.

      Very little of the Anthropogenic Global Warming (incorrrectly renamed "climate change" by the media) is based on proven science and most of it is based on faulty climate models that have not even once been able to actually match measured temperatures, yet they are used to predict the catastrophic collapse of the world as we know it in a few (10, 20, 50 or 100) years.

      It's a pompous and preposterous, extremely arrogant claim and even more so when they drive to impose taxes on those that are much poorer that the imposers (or should I rather say imposters?) and whose very livelihoods are seriously affected by the lack of consistent low cost energy that could be available to them otherwise.

    43. Re:icehouse earth by AlterEager · · Score: 2

      Of course you didn't read any of the material that shows that the postulations that the climate models that are driving the climate change hysteria are built upon are wrong,

      Citation? To peer reviewed science, not some "auditor" or blog?

      You also are not aware that the IPCC reports consistently say that we just don't know and that it's all speculation,

      You want to brush up on your reading skills, what the IPCC actually says is:

      It is extremely likely that more than half of the observed increase in global average surface temperature from 1951 to 2010 was caused by the anthropogenic increase in greenhouse gas concentrations and other anthropogenic forcings together. The best estimate of the human-induced contribution to warming is similar to the observed warming over this period.

      http://www.climatechange2013.org/images/uploads/WGIAR5-SPM_Approved27Sep2013.pdf

    44. Re:icehouse earth by SomeoneFromBelgium · · Score: 1

      "Of course all incumbents will protect their business as best they can and if a newcomer tries to steal their business with fraud and corruption they are entitled to defend themselves. The fact is that the incumbents also don't have clean hands, so it's a case of Dirty Harry versus Al Capone. The bigger gangsters win."

      In your case that seems certainly true.

    45. Re:icehouse earth by Q-Hack! · · Score: 1

      Odd that the actual measured temperatures don't follow the pattern of exponential increase. When the climate models fail to predict actual measurements, perhaps there is a flaw in the fundamental theory. Just because this is the warmest year on record doesn't mean it is outside of statistical noise.

      --
      Some days I get the sinking feeling Orwell was an optimist.
  18. Flint before the Crash by billstewart · · Score: 2

    Flint used to be an ok working-class factory town before they closed the factories, though it's been rapidly downhill since, and of course before the criminally incompetent water administrators poisoned everybody who was left while drinking bottled water at the office.

    I've only been there once, back in the 80s, staying overnight because my connecting flight to Exciting Dayton Ohio got cancelled because of fog. If you needed to find a motel near the airport, fast food that was still open, and coffee in the morning, it was as good as anywhere else.

    The parts of Detroit and Windsor Ontario I was in around 2007 were ok also - we were bidding on upgrading data center equipment for GMAC (oops, the financial crash trashed that project), and we had some generic office space in some suburb near them. I did drive through the business parts of downtown (which were ok) and went to Windsor for dinner - there's good Middle Eastern food there, and I'd never driving south into Canada before.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    1. Re:Flint before the Crash by Ogive17 · · Score: 1

      Hey now.. Dayton is nice because it's only an hour or so from Indy, Columbus, and Cincinnati... and I just built a 4,000 sq. ft home for under $300k that's in a pretty good school district. :)

      --
      "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
  19. When is NASA releasing the raw data? by schwit1 · · Score: 0

    The unedited data before the past is tweaked cooler and the present hotter.

    1. Re: When is NASA releasing the raw data? by mixed_signal · · Score: 1

      It's all available. You have to click on the link in the article... See the other posts in this thread with more links to raw data, etc.

    2. Re:When is NASA releasing the raw data? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah....that's not actually what happens.

    3. Re:When is NASA releasing the raw data? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      The unedited data before the past is tweaked cooler and the present hotter.

      not what happens.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
  20. Because "science" by SuperKendall · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Fairly obvious that any stable baseline is undesirable for the climate "scientists", also hence the narrow starting window as a point of consideration...

    With too much or too stable data, it makes it a lot harder to rig numbers to show what you want!

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Because "science" by slashping · · Score: 1

      We're interesting in seeing relative changes. The actual baseline doesn't matter for that, but something close to zero works best. That's why we pick a recent baseline, big enough to average out most weather effects.

  21. Re: Hoax is as hoax does. by mixed_signal · · Score: 1

    You really should read up on the methodologies. It's not like these are unknown issues. And, no, airport sited stations are not the only data sources.

  22. Stacked deck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Up front: I am NOT a climate change denier but merely someone who likes to see arguments presented in a proper fashion.

    To compare short, indeed very short, periods to a rather long term average is playing with a stacked deck and does nothing for credibility. How many short term high temperatures were within that long term average? I know for a fact that there were quite a few, with some temperatures in the '60s making the current "trend" appear insignificant.

    For credibility to be established, let alone maintained, comparisons have to be of equivalent units. You can't compare apples to oranges and then claim the pears are too red.

  23. A quick and easy solution by petes_PoV · · Score: 1

    in other words, a full 2F warmer than pre-1980 levels.

    Simply devalue the degree Fahrenheit. Most of the world uses Celsius, so few people will be affected by it. And at a stroke you've managed what governments all over the world do when faced with an annoying problem: redefined it out of existence. The final step would be to rename Climate Change to something else, reset all the counters so that all old measurements cannot be converted. Then just carry on as if nothing had happened.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
  24. (offtopic)(meta-Slashdot) by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

    Dear new Slashdot owners,

    (and I don't mean this as a red-rag for the ASCII-only crowd, please consider before downmodding)

    It's a pet peeve of mine when foreign letters are mangled on here; it detracts from the discussion.

    El Ninyo being an illustrative example of why entry of foreign characters contained within common Latin-variant alphabets should be supported.

    One poster above has successfully entered the right html escape code but it's an input-dev pain in the rear, especially if you have an enye character on your Spanish keyboard!

    Please consider...

    1. Re:(offtopic)(meta-Slashdot) by KGIII · · Score: 1

      El Niño. You can type ñ or even Ñ

      © ® € £ ¥ ¼ ½ ½ ÷ × ó ö é í á ü ë etc...

      It's a limited subset, based on a whitelist. Just hit reply, quote parent and you'll see. You can also do this:

      © < &

      The first row of characters was inserted using the keyboard - the U+12345 doesn't work (well, always, normally?). Use the AltGr keys or dead keys.

      The second row is the HTML entity method. "& copy ;" (sans spaces) "& lt ;" (sans spaces) and, "& amp ;" (sans spaces) but the ampersand can be just typed normally. It's really easier if you just click reply, quote parent, and see what I typed - that's easier to explain and kinda how I figured out it worked. I then played with it and figured out which ones did what. We have *some* Unicode support. We could use a few more characters, micro would be nice. 'ug' does not look right.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  25. Source data and analysis methodology please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That is an bold claim to do. Can i please have your source data and and an description of your analysis methodology please? No? Well then you are full of shit!

    1. Re:Source data and analysis methodology please by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Oh FFS! Two clicks (the link in the story then the link to the first hyperlink on that page) take you to this page that is the source data you were too damn lazy to seek out. It would take more work and probably reading several scientific papers to understand the methodology used to produce it but it's out there if you're not too lazy to look it up on your own. You can't get everything delivered to you on a silver platter (unless you're wealthy enough to pay someone to do it for you). Sometimes you have to work for it.

  26. That's because sane people look at per-head by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And per head, China is still below the US.

  27. Hottest? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I sure as fuck didn't shovel two feet of 'partly cloudy' from my driveway last month.

  28. THIS January, not LAST. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    January 2016 is THIS January.

    January 2015 was LAST January.

    January 2017 is NEXT January.

    English 101.

    1. Re:THIS January, not LAST. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This January means the one coming fairly soon.
      January being recently gone means it wouldn't not quite be proper, but Jan 17 could be technically be called both This and Next.
      Last refers to the most recent one gone by. IE, Jan 16.

  29. The details always matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Earth is BILLIONS of years old. We launched the first Weather satellite approx 50 years ago and that one could not measure global temperatures. I'll be EXTREMELY generous and say we have 50 years of global temp data out of one billion years (generously discarding a much larger number more realistic and more beneficial to my position). Let's see now: 50/1000000000 (simplified to 1/20000000) ....... and based on THAT we're suppose to say "hottest ever"?????

    Truckloads of manure pretending to be science as an enabler of a political ideology.

    1. Re:The details always matter by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      Shh....don't exclaim the emperor's new clothes are invisible...

  30. www.climatedepot.com by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    www.wattsupwiththat.com

  31. I call 100% absolute pure BS by buck-yar · · Score: 0

    TOTAL BULLSHIT.

    Last January through end of February where I live was the coldest I can ever remember (and everyone I talk to). 9 days of below zero in January. 17 days below zero in Feb.

    1. Re:I call 100% absolute pure BS by Ogive17 · · Score: 1

      I will counter your regional weather anecdote with my own.

      It hit 60F multiple times in January where I live. This weekend, we're expecting to see temperatures in the 50s. So far this winter, we have not had more than 1 inch of snow on the ground. We have only had 1 week of sub-freezing temperatures. I haven't bothered to get my winter coat out, still wearing my light North Face jacket.

      It's sad, my son is now old enough that he wants to go outside and play in the snow.. the only problem is there hasn't been anything worthwhile to play in.

      On the bright side, our heating cost is only about 60% of what it normally is during winter.

      --
      "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
    2. Re:I call 100% absolute pure BS by Alioth · · Score: 1

      If it's anecdotes you want, then I'll rebut yours.

      I live at 54 degrees north (further north than the entire continental US, about as north as Anchorage, Alaska). However, despite this, our climate is reasonably mild, but winters still get cold. Thirty years ago you could count on scraping the ice of your car windscreen probably on at least 30 winter mornings.

      However, this winter I've still not had to scrape ice off the windscreen. I think I had to scrape the ice off maybe once or twice last year.

      I have a young washingtonia robusta in front of my house. At 54 degrees north. If you're not familiar with the plant, it's a Mexican fan palm. It has been so mild that this January it actually pushed out a new frond, despite being 25 degrees further north than its natural habitat and January days being much shorter and darker than in its natural range.

  32. It's getting Hot /s by wkwilley2 · · Score: 0

    Climate Scientists have it all wrong.

    We've been recording temperature data for less than 0.00001% of the lifespan of the planet, and they're still pompous enough to think they are identifying a trend.

    --
    Have you ever fallen asleep at the keybhanusdiog?
  33. Hottest Month? How about hottest Hour or Minute? by nicoleb_x · · Score: 1

    A month or even a year is too short to use as a period in talk about climate. I know that the public relates well to that talk but it's not appropriate.

  34. And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We're still here.

  35. Highest Anomaly not Hottest Month by mdsolar · · Score: 1

    Northern Hemisphere Summer is warmer than Winter globally basically because there is more land surface area north of the equator. (Oceans moderate seasonal temperature changes.) August 2014 might be the hottest Month but as Gavin Schmidt points out the whole method is based on anomalies so getting to the hot month might not be possible. https://twitter.com/ClimateOfG...

  36. Problem with this is as follows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem with the thinking in this article is the following:

    - if it's the hottest on record, it's global warming
    - if it's the coldest on record, it's global warming
    - if it's just average, then climate is not weather and shut up you science *denier*

    See the problem?

  37. Well not to worry - February is here... by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    And burr.....it brought back the winter...

  38. I have... by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    And most of the research resulted in the understanding that data collection is extremely inaccurate. That many of those former remote temperature measurement sites are now next to urban structures.

    That the overlaying of modern, historical, and prehistoric temperature data relied upon the opinions of scientists, thus subject to bias.

    And that all the models to date have proven woefully poor and inadequate at their predictions. Showing that their understanding is far from complete.

    NONE OF THIS MEANS WE SHOULDN'T STOP POLLUTING THE AIR AND OCEANS

    1. Re:I have... by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      And that all the models to date have proven woefully poor and inadequate at their predictions. Showing that their understanding is far from complete.

      Or maybe your understanding of what climate models do is too woefully poor and inadequate for you to judge how well they do.

      Regarding the surfacestations.org cite in your subsequent post you should read this paper [PDF] that uses the surfacestations list of poorly sited weather stations to test the compensation for UHI effects in the temperature record. It found that the adjustments for poorly sited weather stations actually have a slight cooling bias compared to well sited weather stations.

  39. Here is raw data you all ignore... by PortHaven · · Score: 3, Informative
  40. Simple by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    Stop pumping out billions of gallons of water from prehistoric aquifers to irrigate our crops. Where do folks think that water goes? In the oceans...

  41. Make stuff up [Re: icehouse earth] by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ABC News warned us back in 2007 that New York city would be underwater by June 2015.

    Meh.

    No real climate scientists ever actually predicted New York would be underwater by 2015. Not even the most extreme of the models predicted that. This is a 2100 scenario, not a 2015 prediction,

    The bottom line, don't get your science information from TV Morning specials. The media loves doomsday predictions.

  42. Misleading headline/summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When one reads the article headline and summary that we had the hottest month in "recorded history", one who is not a climatologist would think that goes back to Babylonian times or perhaps even further. (That is what "recorded history" means to most people.) I imagine that there are many rubes in the public (some of them perhaps even television news anchors) who would believe that, most of whom won't read beyond the first paragraph.

    Do you in the global warming advocacy wish to be taken seriously? Then correct these hack jobs whose interest lies in grabbing attention rather than accurate reporting. A person whose concern is swaying the public is not a scientist: he is a politician.

  43. Not static, but not extinction [Re:icehouse earth] by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

    ... the fallacy that our climate is static is the number 1 reason I dont believe much of this debate

    ...2. No scientist has ever claimed the climate is static.

    the tempa go up, the temps go down, constituent ingredients that make up our atmosphere change,

    No. The temperatures change for reasons. The constituent gases of the atmosphere change for reasons.

    yet Earth keeps on ticking, there is NOTHING we can do for this,

    Well, you are of course totally wrong. We not only can change the climate, we have.

    we ride on the Earth, hang on tight and make whatever adjustments you need to to survive.

    And, in order to survive the adjustment we will have to make is to stop emitting fossil CO2.

    This post is pretty much accurate: no, climate scientists don't claim that the climate is static. What they claim is that the natural sources of variation have been measured, and do not explain the rapid (on a geologic scale) temperature rises we currently see.

    The anthropogenic warming is not instead of natural variations. It is in addition to natural variations. But we are now very very accurately measuring the climate forcing factors. They're just not large enough to cause the current warming trend.

    The only part I have to take exception to is the final line: "in order to survive the adjustment we will have to make is to stop emitting fossil CO2."

    No; global warming may be disruptive, but that's going a bit too far. It's not going go cause extinction.

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
  44. Time scale is decades to centuries [Re:icehouse] by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

    Define abruptly....

    OK, fair point. "Abruptly" here means "on a time scale of decades to centuries."

    This is rapid on a scale of climate, and even on a scale of human civilization, but slow on a scale of human lifetime.

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
  45. Change the subject. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, when you're wrong, your response is to ignore the point and bring up something else.

    This is an example of "ABCs": Argument By Changing the subject

  46. CO2 (0.04%) x Anthropomorphic (3%) = 0.0012% by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Carbon Dioxide is 0.04% of the Earth's atmosphere and 3% of that is man-made, which comes to 0.0012%. Who would put any money (like billions of dollars) on 0.0012%? And even if there is "global warming", the planet thrives with warmer temperatures and more CO2 - so why listen to the Chicken Littles? Anybody considering solar activity in this scenario? Now NASA releases global temperature data for January 2016...so what? It will just get modified next year as it always does, because next year it will be colder and they'll have to lower this year's temperature to make it look like the temperature is still trending upwards - just like they retroactively flattened out the 1930's warming period. Besides, February has been a bit on the nippy side...

    1. Re:CO2 (0.04%) x Anthropomorphic (3%) = 0.0012% by NeoMorphy · · Score: 1

      And even if there is "global warming", the planet thrives with warmer temperatures and more CO2 - so why listen to the Chicken Littles?

      It's not the planet that's in danger. The planet will be perfectly fine after we are gone.

    2. Re:CO2 (0.04%) x Anthropomorphic (3%) = 0.0012% by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting how one little quip scores higher than the point that it did not disprove. Just goes to show how brainwashed some people are. Is it capitulation or hysterics when you ominously say "The planet will be perfectly fine after we are gone"...? Dodging the points made with a grim speculation is hardly scientific.

      This global warming religion certainly turns a lot of people who insist they are "scientific" into propaganda-spouting acolytes dutifully and unquestioningly attacking the heathens who dare to question their sacred (pseudo-) "science". So now there is "big climate" money to rival the "big oil" and "big coal" money that is constantly vilified. A new conspiracy to convince the uninformed about the evils of CO2 even though it is a natural byproduct and a requirement for photosynthesis - and when cataclysmic predictions and climate models fail time after time. Al Gore has gotten pretty rich for creating tons of CO2 and for being a hypocritical and disproven non-scientist / media figure. Even history is being modified to conform to this phony doctrine.

      No wonder "global warming" sycophants demand we have to do something "right now" - because as time passes, their predictions fail and they have to make up new ones to grab the uninformed's attention and siphon off more money into this fraudulent anti-science.

    3. Re:CO2 (0.04%) x Anthropomorphic (3%) = 0.0012% by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Cute little bit of mathturbation there. Yes, carbon dioxide is only 0.04% of the Earth's atmosphere but the rise in CO2 levels from about 280 ppm (where it was for the past ~8.000 years) to 400 ppm (where it is now) is entirely man-made. 3% isn't a lot but when you get an additional 3% every year it starts to add up.

  47. Mod [Re:YAA (Yet Another Anomaly)] by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So you get negatively modded two points for saying the F word regardless of context from the get go? This makes me a sad panda.

    Should get moderated down. Does not advance the conversation.

  48. Should measure CO2 emissions to GDP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Then Europe would probably be the worst offenders, but that's just a guess.

    1. Re:Should measure CO2 emissions to GDP by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Nope. Europe is in good shape. America would be in the middle to upper 1/3, while china and any nation that manipulates their money is in horrible shape. This is wiki with 2006 data (10 years ago). If you look at it today, china would remain at the bottom even with the false numbers from CDIAC . And things are MUCH MUCH worse by using empirical data from OCO2, as opposed to false data from the various govs.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  49. Statistics for the small-minded by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

    Averages and percentages are statistics for the small-minded.

  50. Re:Not static, but not extinction [Re:icehouse ear by silentcoder · · Score: 1

    >No; global warming may be disruptive, but that's going a bit too far. It's not going go cause extinction.

    You are probably partly right - but only probably and definitely only partly.
    Partly because we aren't the only species around and it will cause lots of others to go extinct, much smaller climate shifts than this have caused mass extinctions before - and those happened SLOWLY.
    Probably because you may be overestimating our ability, and speed, of adaptation. 97% of all species that ever existed are extinct (at least), we have no idea what our breaking point may be. We are far more dependent on other species than we realize and any of THEIR extinctions could prove to be the end of us, there are other impacts which could prove to be more than we can deal with. We have no real defense against virusses right now and one major aspect of climate change is to seriously shift the distribution of insects - which means spreading diseases to new areas. A disease that only existed in a sparsely populated place where the rare cases that got it always died but weren't very many... could be the plague that takes us out if climate change moves it to a highly populous area.

    There were dozens of homo species on this planet not so long ago (we're still discovering new ones). Only two of those survived the last major climate change. Just two - and the other survivor was confined to a tiny tropical island and probably never experienced it. They were around until 18-thousands years ago at least, that's the age of the most recent fossils we have - but most dead bodies don't fossilize, it's entirely possible they were actually around until as recently as 10 or even 5 thousand years ago, hell it could be 1000 years ago or less. The may have survived right until *we* arrived on their island !

    Either way - the fact is, while we as a species probably would not go extinct - it is a possibility. It's a very remote and absolute worst-case-scenario possibility, but it's not non-existent (and frankly the risk of an asteroid taking us out is quite a lot bigger). But billions of dead bodies, maybe half of us gone, maybe 3 quarters ... that's the MODERATE risk. That's the hedging your bets on the MIDDLE of the picture outcome.
    That's hardly a shocking outcome, killing 25% of the world's population is so easy we've done that TO EACH OTHER... TWICE in a single century ! And make no mistake, in a bad climate scenario, whatever number of people are killed by crop failures and diseases and floods and storms... we would kill 10 times as many ourselves.
    Every crop failure won't just cause a famine, everyone of them will also cause a war as hungry people fight their neighbours for food.

    That's what the "nah, we'll just adapt like we've always done" crowd never mentions... our history is full of evidence of just HOW humans adapt to calamities - we do it by killing each other in droves.

    --
    Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
  51. More/continuing shenanigans. by rickb928 · · Score: 0

    "warmer than the global average of 1951-1980 (the benchmark NASA uses to measure warming trends)"

    This is the most recent example of the failed credibility that demands I question the premise. What, the data from 1981-1990 isn't useful? Why not? Why not to 2000? Do the numbers somehow not fit the expectations? Give me a reason.

    Cherry-picking the data in drug research is being shown to have caused a few drugs to be released with either no efficacy or, worse, serious side effects that render them dangerous...

    Just give us the data. No, wait, we can find the data.Just not from you.

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    1. Re:More/continuing shenanigans. by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      1951-1980 is just the period that NASA uses for their baseline. The reason it it 30 years long is that is the classical climatological period as defined by the World Meteorological Organization. It is not cherry picking. You could use any 30 year period for your baseline and it would be just as meaningful. All a different baseline would do is shift the graph up or down without changing the shape of the curve at all.

      The data used for this particular story is here.

    2. Re: More/continuing shenanigans. by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      But they didn't choose 1980-2010.

      There is a reason. It isn't certain the reason is to use a random period.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    3. Re: More/continuing shenanigans. by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      I think they use 1951-1980 for consistency. That's the base period they used when they started producing anomaly tables back in the 1980s. By continuing to use the same period for baseline it's easier to compare all of their work. If they switched to a 1981-2010 baseline they'd update all of their old anomaly tables to the new baseline. It wouldn't make any difference to the relative differences between two temperatures or the shape of the curve, just where the zero anomaly line gets drawn in the graph.

  52. 1.13 degrees is "shattering" the record? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't believe the summary justified the sensationalist nature of this phrasing. It might be possible to justify it. It might not. But stating it without justification isn't acceptable.

  53. Re:...as Slashdot continues to spiral down the dra by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Surely you could supplement your anecdotes with some actual, relevant proof that they are caused by man-made co2? Seriously, first someone sould prove it! What, cause and effect is no longer important is these advanced times? Why do you eagerly assume that co2 is responsible for any of what you are experiencing? Did the big, bad Carbon monster cause the dust bowl of the 1930's then too? The present physics of radiative gasses tells us that additional atmospheric co2 has a rapidly diminishing effect. The water content of Earth's atmosphere is orders of magnitude greater in it's influence of temperatures. Without causal link between co2 and the so called feedbacks, the "climate science" has nothing. Well nothing but an epic chicken little/boy who cried wolf story, brought to us by greedy authoritarian fascists.
              Welcome to the climate change cult, its the new age eco-religion, complete with techno elite priests for the idiot masses. If you like your doctor/standard of living, you can keep your doctor/standard of living. - Obama. OMFG, now thats LOL!
              And so, with that, a big Fuck Off, to all these self righteous, do-gooding busybodies, and an even bigger Fuck Off to every other politically ambitious fool, and to their followers!

  54. Look at all the data, not a selected set by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

    nice argument, but it then puts the 29/30 year baseline into the same category!!.

    So, use the whole data set. Temperature is rising, and the rise is higher than the error bars.

    Data is here:
    http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gist...

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
  55. Paid comments anyone? by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

    As usual, the libertarian Climate Denialists are out in force.
    Do the Koch bothers pay in shares for this stuff?

  56. Measurement error by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

    Not really any different from any other record: records are always to within the accuracy of the measurement.

    When you look at, say, the world's record for the 100 meter dash, when Nesta Carter broke Maurice Greene's record with a time of 9.79 seconds, compared to Greene's 9.80 seconds, do you really think that the margin of error is less than 10 milliseconds? But it's the best measurement we have

    People are interested by records. Measurements have errors.

    In any case, if 2014 turned out not to be the record high, then 2010 had the record-- either way, the record is within the last few years. And 2015 beat them both-- it was high enough above 2014 (and 2010), that it was outside the measurement error as a record-breaking year-- it is the undisputed world record.

    All of the candidates for warmest year ever recorded are in the last few years (before 2010, the record had been 1998)-- that is hard to explain as measurement error.

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    1. Re:Measurement error by NetNed · · Score: 1

      So I take it you do not understand math or tolerances? When you have a percentage that bad and a tolerance that is bigger then the claimed number it means that the whole method to reach the number is total shit. Your example pretty much proves what I said, that the margin of error has to be less then the difference for the number to be even close to accurate. In the case of the tolerance for the warmest year ever, for it to apply to the 100 meter dash example the margin of error they would claim would have to be .2 seconds to compare, considering there are 1000 milliseconds in a second. When the "margin for error" or what normal people would call the tolerance of error is as high as NASA said it is, even 2010 could end up being not even close to the warmest year ever. It's math, plain and simple. Throw in that satellite data has been ignored even though that has been claimed to be more accurate, makes a reasonable person think the claims are questionable at best, and most likely no where near accurate.

  57. I call bullshit by BlackusDiamondus · · Score: 1
    If you look at the temperature map produced, it shows the vast majority of Australia as being 1-2 degrees Celsius above the base line.

    Doing some basic research by going to the Australian Bureau of Meteorology, their report says overall Australia was only 0.21 degrees above the base line...that's a pretty significant difference!

    http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/...

    I'd love to know how GISS comes up with these over-inflated figures?

    --
    Shit happens and it's usually caused by assholes
    1. Re:I call bullshit by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      The first thing you need to do when making the comparison you did is to find out if they used the same baseline. If they didn't then you need to shift one graph or the other in your comparison so they are using the same baseline. Otherwise your comparison is meaningless.

    2. Re:I call bullshit by BlackusDiamondus · · Score: 1

      That's true, but I'd find it truly bizarre if they were using different base lines for no apparent reason...

      --
      Shit happens and it's usually caused by assholes
    3. Re:I call bullshit by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      I think it's probably to much to ask to get all of the different organizations around the world to use the same baseline. In the end it's a rather arbitrary choice what baseline to use. Converting between different baselines is just a simple matter of addition or subtraction.

      I went and looked at your link and the baseline they were using is 1961-1990. The other difference between your link and the NASA data was that your link was for Australia only not the whole world. I suspect if you took the NASA data for Australia only and compared it to Australia BOM data the results would be pretty close to the same after adjusting the baseline.