New Study Shows Mystery 'Hobbits' Not Humans Like Us (phys.org)

According to a study published on Monday, diminutive humans that died out on an Indonesian island some 15,000 years ago were not homo sapiens, but rather a different species. The Homo floresiensis, known as "hobbits" since they looked like small humans, were found to be a distinct species based on the layers in the specimens' skulls. This discovery could be the end of one of the most heated arguments in anthropology.

Comments

I was looking forward

[Anonymous Coward]

to their new show on TLC

Re:I was looking forward

[Anonymous Coward]

to their new show on TLC

No! Please don't preempt any "Bigfoot" showings!

Re: I was looking forward

[Anonymous Coward]

Is Meet the Kardashians still running?

Re: I was looking forward

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because she lives in a Smial unlike normal humans does not mean that she is in fact a hobbit.

Re: I was looking forward

[plopez]

I haven't heard a peep on pedal extremities or body hair yet. So it is still too early to tell.

Re:I was looking forward

[meta-monkey]

"There's a squatch in these woods!" --> "There's a hobbit in these holes!"

Re:I was looking forward

[Anonymous Coward]

Forget TLC...PornHub!

Some of the tightest pussy around.

Re: I was looking forward

[Anonymous Coward]

NO, no, what matters is to know if they were pink-white or the color of their own excrement or diarrhea.

Ao hobbits was an approriate name

[the_womble]

So, they were called hobbits because they look like small humans. They are NOT humans, but they still LOOK like humans, just like Tolkein's hobbits (the commonest association), so the name is appropriate.

Re:Ao hobbits was an approriate name

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as you don't call'em "aliens". We can't have that, as we know best!

Re: Ao hobbits was an approriate name

[Anonymous Coward]

All the aliens are making their way into the US because we dont even protrct our own border. This is worse than any sci-fi you could imagine.

Re:Ao hobbits was an approriate name

[Anonymous Coward]

These are not the Hobbits you are looking for?

Re: Ao hobbits was an approriate name

[Anonymous Coward]

Grow up

Re:Ao hobbits was an approriate name

[sumdumass]

Would they truly be aliens if they lived here? You don't suppose they fell in love , flew to another planet to reproduce, and came back to live and die or anything do you?

Well I guess they could have died in space and just got dumped in the cave instead of space. But you would assume if that was the case you would find artifacts somewhat more advanced nearby.

Re:Ao hobbits was an approriate name

[skovnymfe]

They sent away their hairdressers and door to door salesmen and phone cleaners, and the ones that didn't die out from phone-transmitted diseases regressed to the point of cavemen due to bad hair and nothing to buy.

Re:Ao hobbits was an approriate name

[ausekilis]

You don't suppose they fell in love , flew to another planet to reproduce, and came back to live and die or anything do you?

Or maybe they were the rejects that an alien species wanted to get rid of. They could be the Biebers or Jersey Shore of some ancient alien race. We just haven't developed the technology to get rid of said rejects.

Re:Ao hobbits was an approriate name

[neoritter]

Hobbits were humans in Tolkien's universe much closer to humans than the Orcs were to Elves because they weren't twisted by magic.

Re:Ao hobbits was an approriate name

[jellomizer]

I am curious about many mythological creatures were based off of prehistoric encounters with creatures and subspecies.

Neanderthals seem to have many aspects we would point out to Trolls and Ogres.
We have had a bunch of species that were around when we were too, many of them having divergent evolutionary traits. As humans had expanded we were in competition. And humans had the ability to win. But with such challenges, I would expect word of mouth tales about the evil monsters who once inhabited the land.

Re: Ao hobbits was an approriate name

[Anonymous Coward]

One anal probing - ok unfortunate but the sheer number of Alien anal probings you guys claim? admit it you Guys enjoy it.

Re:Ao hobbits was an approriate name

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Neanderthals are just Basque.

Re:Ao hobbits was an approriate name

[Anonymous Coward]

I ve stated as thesis: bone handling is social behaviour in the Human species. This means rationality is implied in some way or another even if it was **instinctive** behavior, since the start of Human. We disposed so effectively of the bones and remains of competitor/predator/prey species throughout Prehistory we will not find fossils (a lucky fate event at most) of our favorite extinct species, so all we have is indeed the word of mouth tales of those species. (Or... the evolutionarily imprinted void/background of whatever adaptation those extinct species imprinted on us while we shared an ecosystem, sustaining the recurrence of those tales...). Strong candidates to have gone through this handling are Dragons, Satyrs and Devil. Dragons are a favorite, we seem to need them so much because they could speak, smoke and understood material wealth they win all over over traditional memories of dinosaurs or anything else, but then we extinguished them because they could speak (silly), smoke (plant competition) and understood material wealth (thieves); and Chinese seem to still try to hide the fact they helped the extinction... Ahem! Satyrs and Devils were common deviations of our own species and obvious candidates to extinction by discrimination (bent legs on hooves is not really aesthetic and horns were certainly dangerous). I d add gargoyles and gryphs but as far as I know there is very little evidence of phyla with arthropoidal articulation evolving into arms/wings/hind leg body. Of course, many monsters of Human form are _still_ represented in our population, you just had to visit my high school to... OK, sorry, we ll find very little material evidence for these, but sidewise methods may yield a lot of light to matters we still call deep psyche but are actually rooted in our evolutionary memory. - Danilo J Bonsignore

Re:Ao hobbits was an approriate name

[mcswell]

Wow, a seriously bad article. Nearly everything it says about Basque (except for its being a language isolate) is wrong. E.g. "The structure of the Basque language is also very distinctive, it is said to contain only nouns, verbs, and suffixes." Hundreds of languages fit that description: having suffixes and lacking adjectives. But Basque isn't one of them; it has adjectives (see e.g. http://mylanguages.org/basque_..., or the Wikipedia article on Basque grammar), and at least two prefixes. And the article is wrong about Basque vowels (it does have the 'ee' vowel, what linguists would write as /i/)--in fact it has all the vowels that Spanish has (and one dialect has an additional one).

As for Basque being an isolate, hundreds of languages are isolates, with no known related languages.

I'm a linguist, those inaccuracies jumped out; I can't comment on the accuracy of the other points.

I suppose your posting was a joke, although the linked-to-page appears not to be.

"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[Anonymous Coward]

How do we have to imagine this? More "english gentlemen drinking brandy in front of a stuffed Lion, disagreeing slightly", or more "Thunderdome!!! Two opinions enter, one opinion leaves!"...?

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[Anonymous Coward]

I read it as 'emacs vs. vim' kind of an argument.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[Flavianoep]

I imagine this like more like a grad student researching for a thesis in a library and then finding out a matter that happened the be not yet methodically proven. Then he or she resolves to do the boring work to get his or her doctorate.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[Feral Nerd]

I read it as 'emacs vs. vim' kind of an argument.

The argument has been a bit more heated than that. For many decades humans, unlike all other known species, were thought to have an evolutionary tree without any branches. Over the last couple of decades it turns out that:

1) The human evolutionary tree had many, many, many branches.
2) Dwarfism in humans existed, i.e. the hobbits.
3) Archaic forms of humans existed until fairly recently, again the hobbits.
4) It turns out you can recover large amounts of DNA from ridiculously old samples and discover extinct species of humans without ever touching a shovel and scraping at dirt with a bricklayer's trowel.
5) Some of the diverse branches of the human evolutionary tree merged again when modern humans mated with archaic forms of human. Well know examples of this are Neanderthals, Denisovans plus at least a couple of other archaic species unknown from anything except DNA. Upwards of 20% of the DNA of the Neanderthal for example still exist in our genome.
6) There are a lot of surprises still left to discover, like Albert Perry's Y-chromasome which pre-dates the oldest know modern human fossil by 140000 years.

I really love it when things like this happen. Scientific communities tend to settle into a routine. They are like a bunch of people in a conference room who have dominant theories to explain much of the way things work and most of the work that still need doing is to extend and improve these theories and the oddballs with weird theories have been pushed into a corner and are being ignored. Then, just as people were settling into a routine under the fatherly guidance of the big names in the field, somebody opens the door and brings in a discovery like this or Svante Pääbo's discovery of Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA in modern humans (Ian Tattersall has been eating crow on that score ever since) or my other recent favourite contribution to the human origins debate which is Eske Willerslev 's discovery of people that were genetically closely related to modern Europeans but who lived in Siberia. It turns out that these people contributed significantly to the groups that settled the Americas, meaning that Native Americans and Europeans are actually very closely connected by genetic bonds that stretch back way, way, way, way before Columbus (as in 24000 years ago)... so here we once again have the revenge of the scientific oddballs.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[silentcoder]

The archeologists who discovered the bones said it had all the hallmarks of a distinct homo species right from when they first discovered it. They published papers to that effect 10 years ago. This was however controversial due to the very young age of the bones. No other homo species except us is known to have survived past the last ice age, the claim that these did - and were not the same species as us - was very controversial. Especially since the fossils were so recent that it is entirely possible that humans could have encountered them (remember - most dead bodies don't leave fossils - if the fossils we have is a mere 15-thousand years old, they could have been alive as recently as 5000 or even 1000 years ago).
So a lot of scientists were understandably skeptical about their conclusions even though they were seriously thorough, they didn't publish their findings for almost two years after the discovery as they spent all that time checking and rechecking to test every likely counter-theory and only published it when all those tests were negative and they could find no other possible explanation.

That it remained controversial despite that just shows that contradicting pet theories can upset people - and sometimes, the pet theories are wrong. Interestingly, if any homo species was going to survive the ice age without our technology these guys had about the best shot. Living on a small tropical island - they probably barely even noticed it happened.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[Anonymous Coward]

Then he or she resolves to do the boring work to get his or her doctorate.

And spends the next seven years telling everyone and every goddamned happy hour about how she or he is "going to resolve the most heated argument in anthropology" until she or he finally gives up and gets a copy editing job.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[TapeCutter]

The bones and artifacts were turned over to the Indonesian government shortly after they were discovered by some Aussie scientists, since then getting a look at them has been extraordinarily difficult, even for the people who dug them up. Lack of access to the fossils is the reason we have been hearing arguments rather than test results. Perhaps the academic who was jealously guarding the bones has retired?

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[jeffb (2.718)]

I wish I had mod points for this.

One question, though. Did you really mean to talk about "archaic species" if they were close enough to interbreed and re-merge? I understand that there are lots of subtleties, but the concept of species as lines distinct enough not to interbreed was drilled into us pretty heavily at school...

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[Rockoon]

but the concept of species as lines distinct enough not to interbreed was drilled into us pretty heavily at school...

So they never once brought up Horses and Donkeys, and how they can interbreed to produce Mules, and Hinny's?

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[meta-monkey]

That's a lot of fun gobbledygook but if they just cracked open the Bible for once they'd know God did it. Mystery solved!

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[ACDChook]

Species are generally considered to be separate if they can't breed to create FERTILE offspring. Lots of closely-related species can breed, but the offspring are usually sterile.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[Feral Nerd]

I wish I had mod points for this.

One question, though. Did you really mean to talk about "archaic species" if they were close enough to interbreed and re-merge? I understand that there are lots of subtleties, but the concept of species as lines distinct enough not to interbreed was drilled into us pretty heavily at school...

I may have used the term species a bit loosely but that also brings us to an interesting question. When have two groups of a species 'evolved apart' enough to be considered separate species? Turns out there is no hard and fast definition of this. In the old days this was done by analysing morphological differences of animals, however, recently it turns out that animals we thought were unrelated were actually genetically rather closely related or vice versa so morphology is not the best determinant all on it's own. In my opinion you have got two different species when the difference in their DNA is so great they can't produce live offspring and the ability to produce infertile offspring is then the transitional state. This means that genetics and not morphology is the best way to classify species and that is controversial. But morphology cannot be ignored. There are also cases where two different animal groups cannot practically mate due to anatomical differences even though one may be able to interbreed them in a petri dish and produce live, and even fertile offspring via artificial implanting of embryos. Are those separate species? It'a a matter of definition. Neanderthals for example are referred to as a 'species or subspecies of human in the genus Homo' in the Wikipedia article i.e. scientists are still bickering about whether the Neanderthals should be called Homo Neanderthalensis (species) or Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis (subspecies of H. Sapiens). Personally I'm inclined to go with "can no longer produce offspring or only produce sterile offspring" as being the point when you get a new species and that still leaves us with the problem of defining a sub-species. According to geneticists Neanderthals and Modern humans were rather close to this point when the interbreeding events took place but they were still able to produce fertile offspring or we would not be carrying around H. Neanderthalensis and H. Denisovensis DNA now would we?

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[bondsbw]

More importantly, that definition leaves out the subject at hand, that past species of humans interbred and created clearly fertile offspring (considering that large numbers of their descendants are still alive and probably commenting on this forum today).

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[hey!]

Species are generally considered to be separate if they can't breed to create FERTILE offspring. Lots of closely-related species can breed, but the offspring are usually sterile.

Usually sterile, but not always, and not always to the same degree. And therein lies the rub: placing a thing in one category or another implies the difference is discrete and readily observable, but in the cases of populations of organisms differences are along a continuum.

The way high school students are taught about what a species is is simplistic; or at least it seems to be to me after years of working with scientists to support their data needs. I believe you can think of the concept of "species" as describing, not just a population of organisms, but a population of researchers studying those organisms. A taxonomic designation is a tool researchers use to communicate with each other; a division of a population into two species is dependent upon the their communication needs, not some kind of objective Truth.

Inability to crossbreed to produce fertile offspring is certainly one thing that researchers need species to tell them; if two populations can't interbreed then that will certainly force researchers to distinguish between them. But there are other reasons to recognize new species, and I've certainly seen cases where populations that can interbreed to produce entirely viable offspring have been put into two different species. Let me tell you that's a PITA for people who are keeping records. "We collected species X, species Y, and what appears to be an X/Y hybrid..."

It would be really nice if there were some simple, objective, observable criterion for generating a new species designation, but that's not how it works. The way it actually works is some journal editor accepts an article describing the proposed new species. Then after the ensuing argument a consensus is formed that some people like, some people dislike, but most people can live with. It's a matter of how people feel about the impact of the new species on their work, not some objective distinction -- although because objective distinctions like physical traits are involved I think researchers sometimes lose sight of the fact that naming a population with those traits is a mere convention. It's easier to see the essential arbitrariness of the process when you're sitting off on the sidelines watching.

So bottom line: "species" reflects the needs of researchers to communicate with each other, not some kind of objective reality. Reality can force researchers to recognize a new species, but it can't prevent them from doing that.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[Anonymous Coward]

It may have been that Humans and Neanderthals were only partially fertile. It is one of the possible solutions to the lack of any detected Neanderthal mtDNA in modern humans.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[drinkypoo]

The way high school students are taught about what a species is is simplistic;

the problem is that even scientists don't agree on what a species is, and besides, if there is some reasonable basis it's genetic and they don't have enough genetics yet because school sucks. it's reasonable to provide an abstraction. the problem is that in school they teach you THIS IS HOW IT IS and not just this is good enough for now, and that is what is contrary to actual science

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[Anonymous Coward]

Upwards of 20% of the DNA of the Neanderthal for example still exist in our genome.

Wasn't that number 2-4% for the particular modern populations? You probably meant to write 2%, not 20%.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[serviscope_minor]

The way high school students are taught about what a species is is simplistic; or at least it seems to be to me after years of working with scientists to support their data needs.

Absolutely, yes. The tree of life is not a tree. it's a directed acyclic (has to be causal) graph. At coarse scales, it looks very much a tree. Defining species is essentially the same as performing clustering on nodes of the tree (or leaves if you happen to be a cladist) such that the clusters represent a good compression of the graph in that the tree structure of the clusters is similar to the structure of the underlying graph.

Choosing the right cluster size and partitioning scheme, as with any clustering problem is very hard and the results will never be perfect. If the clustering is too coarse, it lacks descriptive power, and likewise if it's too fine, it over segments and the clusters aren't semantically meaningful.

Most of the time, fortunately, the clustering is easy. Humans for example, fir very neatly in to one cluster, and we look noticable different from and cannot breed with our pair of closest relatives.

The breeding thing covers most of it. Can breed -> same species, can't breed -> different species.

It's not perfect because some closely related species such as horses and donkeys can produce offspring ans sometimes those offspring are also fertile. However, they're not often fertile, the males never are and they have different numbers of chromosomes.

Then you get ring species ,where A can breed with B, B with C, C with D, but A can't breed with C and etc. A and D may or may not be able to breed depending on the type of ring.

And that's animals. Then you get plants which are all kinds of fucked up.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[chmod a x mojo]

Maybe that is why the general consensus for categorizing similar but distinct asexually reproducing organisms ( especially viral organisms) are "strains"?

That is beside the fact that the sciences generally are not using the OLD way of categorizing things into kingdom > genus > species > subspecies anymore when talking about evolutionary trees. Now it is defined by phylogenetic trees, but the old descriptors haven't fully died out from the old fogeys in the field yet.

A better descriptor that is starting to be commonly used is "branches", with closer branches having a more likely chance of producing viable offspring.... which possibly could start a new branch, or get absorbed back into one of the original branches.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially since the fossils were so recent that it is entirely possible that humans could have encountered them (remember - most dead bodies don't leave fossils - if the fossils we have is a mere 15-thousand years old, they could have been alive as recently as 5000 or even 1000 years ago).

An encounter with modern humans is very likely. The people on the next island has folklore telling of small people in the "hobbit island". It has detailed descriptions, some with match the bones and some which can't be seen on the bones. For instance the women had long saggy breasts and to get around, they hung them on the shoulders. The folklore is mainly centered on one fact and that is those small people were extremely aggressive and they would likely kill you if you would be stupid enough to go to their island. In other words like most folklore it's a warning of "if you do this, you die", though this one might be even more accurate than most.

In Japan folklore tells of evil beings living in mountains and stuff. A good example is a mountain with a monster (forgot the Japanese names, sorry), which eats all the people it can find. In modern times the same mountain is a no-go area. Heavy rain is frequent even if the weather is good when you leave home and dying of hypothermia is a real risk. Being covered with a dense forest, dead people are unlikely to be found and even less likely considering people are warned not to go there (no traffic or local population). This mean while the explanation in the folklore is incorrect, the fact with "if you go there, you have a high risk of vanishing without a trace" is true. In other words, there is a real warning hidden inside the fairytale.

Also fairly recently scientists revealed that the terrain in the north west US was made when an inland sea bursts through a wall of ice when the ice age ended. When presented to the locals, a native to the area said "great lecture, but we knew it already. The folklore told us of this event" and digging into that aspect of the story, the folklore told of a strong flashflood washing away all tribes who didn't make it to the hilltops. Further upstream the wall itself was in the folklore and how it was a disaster that the inland sea vanished for all the tribes feeding on the fish. Gathering all the folklore came to the same conclusion as the university study of the terrain and all the info matches up.

Considering modern humans spread to Indonesia and reached Australia 50k years ago, we know from the date of the bones that they must have been in Indonesia at the same time at some point, possibly for many years. Indonesia is a big place, which makes it hard to proof that they encountered each other, but the window of opportunity is quite big. With no media or knowledge of foreign influence, the evenings were free to talk about folklore and common knowledge. A record of a major event like a different human species would live on forever and 15k years ago isn't even far from the report of the end of the ice age in North America.

Conclusion: if the folklore tells that modern humans encountered the hobbits, they most likely did. Remember folklore is to people without a written language what history books are to us. This mean if the folklore matches the modern findings, it's a good chance it's not just by chance. It would be reasonable to say "it's most likely like that" until proven otherwise.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[T.E.D.]

is Eske Willerslev 's discovery [nature.com] of people that were genetically closely related to modern Europeans but who lived in Siberia. It turns out that these people contributed significantly to the groups that settled the Americas, meaning that Native Americans and Europeans are actually very closely connected by genetic bonds that stretch back way, way, way, way before Columbus (as in 24000 years ago)...

Interesting. I'd heard relations like that proposed by linguists 30 years ago, and more recently links of PIE ancestors to Siberian people a decade ago. But there are so many proposed macro-language families, that could just be luck.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[armanox]

While that is the easy answer - saying that G-d did it, Genesis is a little light on details there, and also has more then one creation story in it....

Re: "most heated arguments in anthropology"

[silentcoder]

I know about the folklore but thanks for the detailed explanation. I didnt know any details about it.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[Anonymous Coward]

There is so much wrong with this list of 'facts'. Way too many generalizations and half-truths.

One example, you do not "recover large amounts of DNA from ridiculously old samples" and "discover extinct species of humans without ever touching a shovel".

Having worked in a world-class ancient human DNA lab at a major university, I encourage readers to be skeptical of such statements. There is a lot of hard work both in the lab and in the field associated with these findings. Simplifying the process is an insult to the researchers that spend years on-site digging and lab workers who struggle to obtain intact genomes.

If you want a clear view of current research, you need to take the time to read actual research papers and give particular attention to the section called 'Methods'.

Also, being condescending to scientists and current research does not make you look more intelligent or 'right'. Scientific communities do not settle into routines. It is a constant discussion, as science should be. 'Opening doors' to new thought is what keeps it exciting.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[Gr8Apes]

...It's not perfect because some closely related species such as horses and donkeys can produce offspring ans sometimes those offspring are also fertile.

And it only takes this happening once where that fertile offspring survives and a whole bunch of others are wiped out that the fertile offspring then generates significantly more DNA into the pool. Note that in this case it is likely male children or the female child(ren) of a homo sapiens female that were fertile and passed on the Neanderthal DNA, due to the current lack of observed Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA. Same for the Denisovans, etc. That interpretation is open to future data proving it wrong as more DNA analysis of the population as a whole proceeds.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[Anonymous Coward]

Conclusion: if the folklore tells that modern humans encountered the hobbits, they most likely did.

That does not seem like an accurate conclusion from your stories. A similar conclusion would be that the mountain in Japan had monsters, and there's no evidence of that. (See also many other folkloric creatures.) Which doesn't mean that folklore can't be useful, but drawing easy conclusions from it is hard and unreliable.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[TemporalBeing]

It turns out you can recover large amounts of DNA from ridiculously old samples

Or may be the samples are not as old as they thought

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[Anonymous Coward]

I disagree with your reasoning. The conclusion seems to be based on how folklore and excavation results match. The folklore tells about the hobbits BEFORE they are found. This makes it reasonable to assume it could be correct. If you take data unrelated to the folklore and try to find contradictions without finding any and you see how they can all coexist and dates match up, then it becomes more likely that it's true. There isn't any proof for/against them encountering each other.

The folklore of the end of the ice age is a much better one for this context. It is also backed up by "scientific methods" where scientists can confirm the physical parts of the story took place like the folklore states. The chance that the folklore just happen to have guessed right by chance seems unlikely and the most likely explanation is that people for 10k-12k years kept on telling their children about the time long ago when the entire area was flooded.

The evidence for the Japanese monster is totally different since AFAIK no monster bones have been found. Without physical evidence we have no reason to believe it to be present. However even as farfetched as it sounds, it sounds like the message is real "you die if you do that", which still makes it more than a random story. It's a good example of why you shouldn't trust anything without evidence while at the same time shouldn't discard anything unless proven to be wrong. After all the message in the story is real even if the monster isn't.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[hey!]

Note that in this case it is likely male children or the female child(ren) of a homo sapiens female that were fertile and passed on the Neanderthal DNA, due to the current lack of observed Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA. Same for the Denisovans, etc. That interpretation is open to future data proving it wrong as more DNA analysis of the population as a whole proceeds.

One of the possibilities that fascinates me is that this lack of mitochondrial DNA evidence for Neanderthal ancestry through the female line may be because we haven't sampled enough of the modern human population; after all as atypical as it is to have your DNA analyzed, it's far, far more rare to have your mitochondrial haplotype analyzed.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[dataspel]

+1 for "scraping at dirt with a bricklayer's trowel"

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[Anonymous Coward]

( you left African dangling, and I do insist they _are_ a different species, as well as Indians [Indians, Arabs, Hindi] are, and Orientals, too).

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[cwsumner]

... Did you really mean to talk about "archaic species" if they were close enough to interbreed and re-merge? I understand that there are lots of subtleties, but the concept of species as lines distinct enough not to interbreed was drilled into us pretty heavily at school...

Short answer: It was thought that they were separate species, so they wrote it up that way. Then they found out different, but the books were all printed the old way! Result, much wringing of hands and ignoring the problem... 8-)

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[cwsumner]

Conclusion: if the folklore tells that modern humans encountered the hobbits, they most likely did.

That does not seem like an accurate conclusion from your stories. A similar conclusion would be that the mountain in Japan had monsters, and there's no evidence of that....

You know as well as I do, that just because we don't have evidence that it is there, does not actually prove it does not exist. I really don't think they have done any detail searches of the surrounding area.

Of course, claiming it -is- there, without any evidence, can piss people off and waste a lot of time. But that's different.

Re:"most heated arguments in anthropology"

[mcswell]

I dunno about the genetics, but about the languages: A small group of nearly extinct Siberian languages (not believed to be related, btw, to Indo European languages) is quite likely related to the Na-Dene languages of North America (Tlingit, Navajo/ Dene, Slave, Carrier, and perhaps a dozen other Athabaskan languages whose names I don't recall). You can read about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.... And the Inuit ("Eskimo") languages around the polar regions are related. But afaik, there is no indication that any other language outside of the Americas is related to any other language of the Americas, nor is there evidence that any of the Na-Dene languages are related to any other native American languages.

we're not much like we were told to be....

[Anonymous Coward]

& we're getting better than we ever were supposed to... spirit of creation undefeated since/until forever,,, cease fire,, in the moms we trust...

Re:we're not much like we were told to be....

[Anonymous Coward]

You realise that doesn't make any sense, right?

Re:we're not much like we were told to be....

[plopez]

sheer poetry

*snicker*

[Anonymous Coward]

"heated arguments in anthropology"

Two men enter, one man leaves.

Re:*snicker*

[Anonymous Coward]

In this case one species of man entered the argument, and two left.

That's the old hobbits. What about the new?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm over six feet tall. Everywhere I go it feels like I'm surrounded by a sea of people who are five feet or less.
While there's a fair number of other six footers, but I wonder if we're somehow breeding a new species of short people.

Re:That's the old hobbits. What about the new?

[Anonymous Coward]

They are new technology people. Smaller, and use less energy.

Re:That's the old hobbits. What about the new?

[Maritz]

Pretty sure the numbers show that we're getting taller, by and large. Good example of how anecdotal evidence isn't evidence. ;)

Re: That's the old hobbits. What about the new?

[Anonymous Coward]

The opposite is happening. We are breeding humans for height, because women only want tall men. In 100 years or so, the average height will be well over 6 feet, if not close to 7.

Re:That's the old hobbits. What about the new?

[plopez]

I blame the airlines :)

Re: That's the old hobbits. What about the new?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorta.

While small women aren't entirely undesirable, and in some cases prefered, short men are neber prefered (unless they are extremely rich, and in that case the women is often seeing a tall handsome man on the side while milking the beta for cash). So short men are not reproducing, while tall men are enjoying just about any chick they desire, mutliple if they so wish. This IS pushing up the average human height, and years from now we will see the result of this "breeding out" of short men.

Re: That's the old hobbits. What about the new?

[zAPPzAPP]

The recent developements in average height, as well as within the next 100 years are not due to genetics. The timeframe for that is much too small to affect a huge population in the 100mio significantly.

They are mostly attributed to better food, lack of child deseases and (debated) growth hormons in food or other industrial substances that may have the same effect.

Re: That's the old hobbits. What about the new?

[Anonymous Coward]

The recent developements in average height, as well as within the next 100 years are not due to genetics. The timeframe for that is much too small to affect a huge population in the 100mio significantly.

They are mostly attributed to better food, lack of child deseases and (debated) growth hormons in food or other industrial substances that may have the same effect.

Yep, much of it is due to diet. I had a friend in college who was Indian but he and his brother grew up entirely in the USA on an American diet unlike his immigrant parents. Both of them were nearly a foot taller than their parents and their relatives back home, this change happened in only a single generation.

Also we used to say in college that you could often guess pretty accurately from a distance which of the Asian girls were foreign students and which were American-raised just from their bust size alone.

Re: That's the old hobbits. What about the new?

[EvilAlphonso]

Also we used to say in college that you could often guess pretty accurately from a distance which of the Asian girls were foreign students and which were American-raised just from their bust size alone.

It's even worse than that... you can guess if their home town had a McD/KFC based on that metric alone. Bust sizes went up in Japan once McD became common.

Re: That's the old hobbits. What about the new?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank GOD for McD's;)

Re: That's the old hobbits. What about the new?

[PPH]

This IS pushing up the average human height,

Good. More 'rekt' videos on some of the gore websites. Tall people seem to suffer from the really hideous skeletal injuries to a greater degree than short ones. The down side of this; as height is selected, there is no more Darwinian 'survival of the fittest' in operation to weed the tall ones out. They will continue among us, limping around like cripples and breeding.

Re: That's the old hobbits. What about the new?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure the Japanese women with breast cancer don't feel that way.

Re: That's the old hobbits. What about the new?

[ChrisMaple]

There is an inverse correlation between female hormone levels and height (in women). High levels of female hormones also correlate with large breasts and other feminine physical characteristics. Assuming adequate nutrition, small women tend to look more feminine, hence more attractive.

Also, some guys are intimidated by tall women.

Re: That's the old hobbits. What about the new?

[Anonymous Coward]

Taller dumber. It is in the Bible! But it is because of brain irrigation and the law of cubes.

Re: That's the old hobbits. What about the new?

[Anonymous Coward]

(while non Indians non Africans in USA are getting disproportionately bigger numbers of midgets, passing as real children their whole life out of shame. Sure, it is the FOOD, and who dispenses food these days in the USA, eh, Africans?)

Re:That's the old hobbits. What about the new?

[mcswell]

You should go to Hong Kong some time. I felt tall for the first time in my life (I'm a 5'8" male). At least until I got into an elevator with some Germans...

Not like us?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, unbelievable!

Not humans like us?

[KeensMustard]

Speak for yourself meatbag

special people

[Anonymous Coward]

still made of the same (almost vaporous) goo & electricity as the rest of us, with a hint of need to feel superior...?

Re:So will the creationists

[Maritz]

They'll probably say they were just short people. They'll say the dating is wrong. They might even stick their fingers in their ears and go 'na na na na na'.

Define human!

[darthsilun]

Were Neanderthals human? Does the fact that they could interbreed with Home Sapiens make them human?

What exactly is the definition of human? The dictionary just says human = people.

So, were the hobbits people? If so, then they were humans, just like us, even if they weren't Homo Sapiens.

Re:Define human!

[Anonymous Coward]

Were Neanderthals human? Does the fact that they could interbreed with Home Sapiens make them human? What exactly is the definition of human? The dictionary just says human = people. So, were the hobbits people? If so, then they were humans, just like us, even if they weren't Homo Sapiens.

Problem with Neanderthals is that they did NOT hunt rabbits

Re:Define human!

[Anonymous Coward]

Were Neanderthals human?

They are called "homo neanderthalensis", which is Latin for "human of Neanderthal".

Re:Define human!

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely agree!

Re:Define human!

[Anonymous Coward]

More so: the englisch word human derives directly from the latin word homo.

Re:Define human!

[Anonymous Coward]

You're absolutely right. It's MUCH better to masturbate furiously and tearfully in your corner. Or, equivalently, to post replies anonymously agreeing with yourself.

Re:Define human!

[Punko]

Lets just say this: Human is not the same as Homo sapiens. There are many members of our species that I would not classify as human beings - primarily for their lack of humanity.

Members of Homo sapiens are persons (biological into legal) and under American terminology, natural persons.

It is not sufficient for two organism types to be able to breed to be the same species, only that they have viable offspring. A mule is sterile, as is a liger.

These "hobbits" and Neanderthals, if alive today, would almost certainly be considered persons under the law. They would probably be viewed as human, but they would not be considered Homo Sapiens.

Technical and precise terms are required. Generalized words, like human, cannot be precise. Use the right tool for the job. Someone with far more brains and artistic skill could probably produce a Venn diagram highlighting this discussion

Re:Define human!

[laie_techie]

More so: the englisch word human derives directly from the latin word homo.

homo means same in Greek (homonym = same name; homophone=same sound, etc). The English word human derives from the Latin humanus by way of French.

Re:Define human!

[micahraleigh]

"Neanderthals" were homo sapiens.

The word comes from the valley where the fossils were found.

Everyone agrees the surrounding fossils were homosapiens. That is the context.

The few different ones had bendier bones ... rickets. A deformity caused by a lack of calcium.

All "neanderthal" specimens in the fossil records are openly contested by secular scientists.

Dwarves

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck Hobbits. We need to revitalize the Dwarven race.
We need to get as many midgets as we can to become fat, alcoholics, and to make it mandatory for them to grow beards forever and groom them into dwarven styles.
Get all of them to that giant quarry in Australia with underground housing. We must prepare the Dwarven race for space travel and asteroid mining.

Re:So will the creationists

[plopez]

Ask them, "If God is so smart why do men have nipples?"

On the origin of "species"

[wonkey_monkey]

were found to be a distinct species based on

...the abstract and ill-defined concept of "species."

Re:On the origin of "species"

[Anonymous Coward]

n. pl. species

1. Biology A group of closely related organisms that are very similar to each other and are usually capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. The species is the fundamental category of taxonomic classification, ranking below a genus or subgenus. Species names are represented in binomial nomenclature by an uncapitalized Latin adjective or noun following a capitalized genus name, as in Ananas comosus, the pineapple, and Equus caballus, the horse.

Re:On the origin of "species"

[Anonymous Coward]

On what are they basing the idea that we can not interbreed with hobbits?

Re:On the origin of "species"

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd assume the same way they were able to confirm Neanderthals did interbreed with us - by checking for matching DNA markers. If no one alive has any of their DNA, then we probably couldn't interbreed. Because you know those crazy humans... if they can breed with something, they WILL.

Re:On the origin of "species"

[GrumpySteen]

Because you know those crazy humans... if they can breed with something, they WILL.

Let's be honest... it doesn't matter if they can breed with it. As long as there is a suitably sized hole or protrusion, someone will try to have sex with it.

Re:On the origin of "species"

[wonkey_monkey]

A group of closely related organisms that are very similar to each other

A may be "very similar" to B, and B may be "very similar" to C, but A may not be "very similar" to C.

So how do you divide A, B, and C up into species?

Re:On the origin of "species"

[wonkey_monkey]

Wrong:

found to be a distinct species based on the layers in the specimens' skulls.

Re:On the origin of "species"

[ChrisMaple]

If no one alive has any of their DNA

Considering that humans have a great deal of DNA in common with monkeys, much in common with dogs, elephants, etc., your comment requires considerable rewriting to make it correct.

Re:So will the creationists

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally admit evolution happened? Or did God design these little people just to go extinct too?

It's a race with socialists recognizing economics.

Re: So will the creationists

[Maritz]

If evolution is real and men don't need nipples then why haven't they lost them over time?

It's a fun question. I guess men aren't a species. :)

I'd pray to god if I knew which one would be most likely to reply. No-one likes to be left hanging.

My explanation of this

[Applehu Akbar]

Short guys don't get dates, and since money had not been invented yet, the hobbits were selected out.

Re:My explanation of this

[Anonymous Coward]

The fools didn't fly!

Re: So will the creationists

[Punko]

This is why folks without any knowledge of biology should not engage in technical discussions about biology. Your quasi-theological response to such a question just shows that you shouldn't be at the adults table.

Are you sure?

[Anonymous Coward]

The picture looks like an indonesian to me...

Re:Are you sure?

[ChrisMaple]

The picture should be regarded as a poor representation. For instance, the eyes are blue, very unlikely.

Keep them as pets?

[Torontoman]

It would be very cool to have a pet one of these. Start the Chinese clone factories up.

What is new here?

[meadow]

Doesn't the fact that they are named Homo floresiensis - not Homo sapiens - already mean they weren't considered humans? Not sure what the news is here.

Re:So will the creationists

[king neckbeard]

I think they will just declare Randy Newman a prophet, and claim that "short people have no reason to live," and thus they died out by God's will.

Re: So will the creationists

[plopez]

They are already vestigial. Beyond clamp holders they have no use. Besides Adam was created first, so it makes no sense based on Biblical "evidence". Unless since God is female or He likes nipple clamps.

Re: So will the creationists

[slew]

If evolution is real and men don't need nipples then why haven't they lost them over time?

Embryos are created female. Then later during development (~60 days) they become male. Nipples are formed before 60 days.

Doesn't anyone take biology classes in high school anymore? Or is just sex education? (e.g., how, not why)

More settled science

[micahraleigh]

... just like piltdown man and Java man.

Come to think of it ... wasn't Java man a complete hoax pitched as an intermediate species (i.e. missing link) from Indonesia?

This is becoming like the Nigerian scam of anthropology. Can't they pick a different locale with their scams?

Re: So will the creationists

[micahraleigh]

What ??

Even embryos are XX or XY.

Re: So will the creationists

[Anonymous Coward]

The testosterone doesn't kick in till 60 days so *developmentally* all embryos are female.

Re: So will the creationists

[ChrisMaple]

Although male human lactation is rare, it does happen occasionally. It can be promoted with the hormone prolactin.

Aren't they also known as menehune?

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't they also known as menehune in Hawaiian lore?