US Asks VW For Electric Cars (news.com.au)

US authorities have asked the German carmaker Volkswagen to produce electric vehicles in the United States as a way of making up for its rigging of emission tests. German newspaper Welt am Sonntag claims the US Environmental Protection Agency is currently in talks with Volkswagen with the aim of agreeing on a fix for nearly 600,000 diesel vehicles that emit up to 40 times legal pollution limits. The paper, which gave no source for its report on Sunday, said the EPA was asking VW to produce electric vehicles at its plant in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and to help build a network of charging stations for electric vehicles in the United States.

Comments

This is good because of network nature

[JoshuaZ]

This is a very good solution. Rather than just try to slap VW with a fine that they'd shrug off, this would use the resources to help push the entire car market into a better environmental situation and one that is less dependent on fossil fuels as a whole. Electric cars are a technology which works better when there are more electric cars and more charging stations. This is essentially a networking effect. So the resulting push by having another major manufacturer make more electric cars will be substantially more positive than simply fining them.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Kinda have to agree.

Who ever thought of this was pretty astute in gauging the environmental impact of the VW fiasco, and working towards ameliorating it in a way that not only gets buy in from VW and improves the air quality in a way better than the original regs.

The only hiccup is if this turns into a gimme to VW as a way to ensure compliance.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Obfuscant]

This is a very good solution.

This is a very bad solution. The US government should not be telling companies, domestic or foreign, what products they must make or what services they must provide. Telling VW they must provide charging stations for cars they don't want to make in the first place is just wrong.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

it's actually a stupid solution, will compete with Tesla, an American company. Stupid America.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[haruchai]

When you break the law and get caught, the gov't gets to tell you a lot of things you can & can't do.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Right. A proper solution is that they take the 600,000 cars back and provide something that respects environmental norms, while providing at least the performance/quality/durability/confort/safety of the original product, and then also pay for the environmental impact.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[schwit1]

A truly bad idea. If VW's heart is not in it they will only do the minimum to keep the government off their back.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Better than them choking up the environment with more farfegnugen.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

That doesn't make it good or ethical. In fact, 250 years ago, governments were so notoriously bad about what they did to people who broke arbitrary laws, that the framers deliberately prohibited cruel and unusual punishments.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[frnic]

I am not sure what planet you live on, governments tell companies what they can and can not do all the time, and should. DO you have seat belts, air bags, catalytic convectors? Does your refrigerator not have a locking dock, does your new house have lead based paint, do you kids toys have lead based paint, do you drink clean water? I could go on for hours, but you would simply say they should do any of that stuff, people should take care of painting their own homes and processing their own water...

But, whatever works for you.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. Two wrongs don't make a right!

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

"Telling VW they must provide charging stations for cars they don't want to make in the first place is just wrong." ...so is rigging emission tests and further harming the environment....

Less you forget, Government in America is supposed to be an expression of the will of The People. Being one of The People, I support this.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[MacTO]

The US said that cars must meet certain standards in order to be sold in their country. Not only did the vehicles not meet those standards, but VW falsified the results. When someone breaks the law, they are typically told what they have to do. Sometimes it's jail time. Sometimes it's a fine. Sometimes it's community service. I guess this would be filed under the latter.

Suggesting that they should not be told what to do is counter productive. It would be akin to saying: these are the laws and there are no consequences to breaking the laws, so you may as well do as you want to.. Some companies may follow the laws to avoid bad PR, but a lot wouldn't.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[PopeRatzo]

DO you have seat belts, air bags, catalytic convectors?

Real Americans disable all that big brother shit first thing. Live free or die. Or in this case, both.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Frosty Piss]

The laws that VW broke are not "arbitrary".

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

It is appropriate that this is with VW because it smells of fascism.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[haruchai]

I'm good with VW paying the fine, just as I had to do when I broke the speeding & stop light laws.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[angel'o'sphere]

You are disillusioned. The [..] government should not be telling companies, domestic or foreign, what products they must make or what services they must provide.
That is exactly what a government is for. If the "companies" don't grasp by themselves what products they must make or what services they must provide. then the government has to force them. That is why we vote for government representatives.

Oh, you must be american, never mind then ...

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds more like a Corleone family tactic.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[mrscott]

Then make it a choice for them: "We can either fine you a bazillion dollars, which, based on your actions, you absolutely deserve, or you can help the country as a whole by doing these things, which will probably end up costing you less in the long run and maybe, just maybe, helping you regain the trust of the people you screwed." Then, they get to make the choice.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[saigon_from_europe]

The best solution would be to make VW to fix the mess and to put VW managment to jail. Hefty fine would probably hurt only VW employees anyway. Jail term would hopefully learn big fat cats that rules are to be obeyed.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[WindBourne]

yes,it is horrible when American gov takes actions likes conserves energy by encouraging EVs so that our nation does not have to go to war, but it is worse when the feds do not give free access to public lands to pump free/cheap oil. Likewise,ppl like you get upset when the feds do not give our minerals freely and you expect that we will allow your business to pollute air, water,and land.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

The emissions standards *that they broke* are arbitrary. There's no clear data supporting them, and they most certainly increase CO2 emissions, which are a much more significant long-term problem.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[legoleg]

Elon Musk had the same idea:
http://news.slashdot.org/story...

Re:This is good because of network nature

[bugs2squash]

That was my first thought too, except that it's probably a good thing for all concerned if the total market grows and pushes demand for charging stations etc.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Midnight Thunder]

I'm good with VW paying the fine, just as I had to do when I broke the speeding & stop light laws.

I think the government should either have them pay the fine or build infrastructure in the USA. Anything else sounds like a double fine. Of course VW could turn this to their advantage and into a win - making me think of how the record companies instance on DRM helped make iTunes a dominant player in the downloadable music market (maybe this is not the right analogy, but this is the thought that pops into my mind).

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Midnight Thunder]

A truly bad idea. If VW's heart is not in it they will only do the minimum to keep the government off their back.

That is possible, depending on how the requirements are worded. At the same time, this did occur to me as well. They could develop a vehicle just for the US market, that was cheap to build and market. I am thinking maybe something like an affordable version of the Smart car?

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

This is so stupid. Electric vehicles are a fad.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean some kind of vehicle for regular folks?

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Christian Smith]

I'm good with VW paying the fine, just as I had to do when I broke the speeding & stop light laws.

... Of course VW could turn this to their advantage and into a win - making me think of how the record companies instance on DRM helped make iTunes a dominant player in the downloadable music market (maybe this is not the right analogy, but this is the thought that pops into my mind).

You must be new here. We explain computer issues with car analogies, not the other way round.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Christian Smith]

Right. A proper solution is that they take the 600,000 cars back and provide something that respects environmental norms, while providing at least the performance/quality/durability/confort/safety of the original product, and then also pay for the environmental impact.

Seriously? Slightly hypocritical considering the average american car pollutes more than the average VW diesel car.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Dcnjoe60]

Right and maybe if you or I break the law we can just get to go on as nothing has happened. This solution only rewards them by having them do what they were going to do in the first place.

Here is a novel idea, have them fix the vehicles at their cost and then fine them to the maximum allowed by law and use the proceeds to build charging stations.

This proposed settlement is a bit like saying if you are a utility caught violating clean air laws, it's okay, for your punishment, go produce clean energy.

There is nothing positive about this settlement unless you are VW.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Dcnjoe60]

When you break the law and get caught, the gov't gets to tell you a lot of things you can & can't do.

But rarely does the government tell you that for your punishment, to go produce a new product instead of paying a fine.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anomalyst]

But two Wrights made an airplane.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Since the generation of electricity in the United States is 100% from renewable resources, not coal or diesel or something that produces nuclear waste, these electric cars are perfect!

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Dcnjoe60]

I'm good with VW paying the fine, just as I had to do when I broke the speeding & stop light laws.

I think the government should either have them pay the fine or build infrastructure in the USA. Anything else sounds like a double fine. Of course VW could turn this to their advantage and into a win - making me think of how the record companies instance on DRM helped make iTunes a dominant player in the downloadable music market (maybe this is not the right analogy, but this is the thought that pops into my mind).

A correct remedy for violating the emission standards would be a fine. But this is more than violating emissions. People purchased these vehicles because of the supposedly clean nature of the vehicle along with the high mpg. Of course bringing the cars in line with the emissions will kill the mpg. VW new this was the case and as such this is fraud. They should be required to refund the purchase price of the vehicles to those who purchased them for breach of contract and intent to defraud. That would be in addition to the fine charged by the government for violating emission standards.

Put differently, VW intentionally misrepresented the product they were selling to the public. This, by definition, was a scam and they should be held accountable and make whole the people they scammed.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Midnight Thunder]

I'm good with VW paying the fine, just as I had to do when I broke the speeding & stop light laws.

... Of course VW could turn this to their advantage and into a win - making me think of how the record companies instance on DRM helped make iTunes a dominant player in the downloadable music market (maybe this is not the right analogy, but this is the thought that pops into my mind).

You must be new here. We explain computer issues with car analogies, not the other way round.

But I don't know anymore if electric cars are computers on wheels or cars with computers? -confused-

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Dcnjoe60]

"Telling VW they must provide charging stations for cars they don't want to make in the first place is just wrong." ...so is rigging emission tests and further harming the environment....

Less you forget, Government in America is supposed to be an expression of the will of The People. Being one of The People, I support this.

Unfortunately, since the SCOTUS determined that corporations are people, too. You aren't one of the people that government listens to. As for this solution, how does it remedy those who purchased a product that had false advertising and will, once fixed, be nowhere near being able to achieve the mileage they were promised. Shouldn't those people receive some justice?

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Dcnjoe60]

Then make it a choice for them: "We can either fine you a bazillion dollars, which, based on your actions, you absolutely deserve, or you can help the country as a whole by doing these things, which will probably end up costing you less in the long run and maybe, just maybe, helping you regain the trust of the people you screwed." Then, they get to make the choice.

How does this "settlement" help the people who were defrauded by VW when they purchased these vehicles? How does this settlement change corporate behavior given that VW was already going to produce electric cars? How does this settlement do anything other than let VW and its shareholders off the hook?

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Smidge204]

Except it wouldn't be a new product.

VW has been teasing an all-electric Golf for a few years now, including auto show appearances, but has been dragging their feet bringing it to market. The 2016 e-Golf is only available at select dealers in a handful of states.

They *have* the product, they just aren't selling it 'cause their bread-n-butter is internal combustion. So the choice is a few billion in fines, or a few billion in getting serious about selling electric cars. ...and the fine won't do anything to offset the environmental damage done, which is what the requirements were for in the first place. It's not only an equitable solution, it's a logical one that actually fulfills the purpose of the law that was broken.
=Smidge=

Re: This is good because of network nature

[LoverOfJoy]

I'm good with VW paying the fine, just as I had to do when I broke the speeding & stop light laws.

... Of course VW could turn this to their advantage and into a win - making me think of how the record companies instance on DRM helped make iTunes a dominant player in the downloadable music market (maybe this is not the right analogy, but this is the thought that pops into my mind).

You must be new here. We explain computer issues with car analogies, not the other way round.

Must be from Soviet Russia

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd rather someone give the government money? That shit would be squirrled away in to some crony's pockets before you could count it.

This is a clever solution that is befitting the crime.

Fuck people the government actually figured something out one fucking time? And you're gonna bitch? Thats like smacking the dog on the nose when he finally does do it outside.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[amRadioHed]

So what? Most people aren't capable of producing a product that would significantly benefit society.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Who said it was going to stop at this? Go get in your pink bug and weep. Frankly I hope you dont get anything for being such a cunt to other people for no reason.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

Oh eat shit. They were caught breaking emissions laws. They can do the right thing or they can get fined into insolvency. Take your "Capitalism Uber Alles" apologist bullshit, fold it until it's all sharp corners, and shove it up your ass.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

How DOES this let VW and its shareholders off the hook? Please explain. Seems like taking choice away and saying "do this or suffer" isn't letting them off the hoook.

From all accounts, VW will make things right with people who bought vehicles and were defrauded. If they ever expect to sell another vehicle, they'd fucking well better.

This is over and above that. Either become an environmentally responsible company, or perish.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Bartles]

When everything is illegal, it gives authority great power to shape society. They get to pick who to punish, and whom to not. They get to direct action and free will suffers as a consequence.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Bartles]

They have the power to force people to consume certain products, why shouldn't they also have the power to force certain people to produce certain products? To all the people that wanted more government, this is what more government looks like.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

"There is nothing positive about this settlement unless you are VW."

Or you're a human being that wants more electric cars on the road.

This doesn't settle things between VW and all the consumers that can and will sue the living fuck out of them, it simply offers them a solution that will increase the percentage of electric vehicles sold.

What good is building charging stations with that money going to do? It's not going to increase the number of cars on the road using electric power. It might enrich some speculative companies vested in installing charging stations that might never be used, however.

Build the vehicles, and companies will be falling over each other to build charging stations. Finance charging stations without a plan, and you're just pissing money away to shysters.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Bartles]

What they have one? A dozen? Is that enough or are they going to have to PRODUCE more? Sorry, but that was a pretty moronic comment you made.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

This settlement has nothing to do with the individual lawsuits that VW is going to be buried in. It has to do with the specific Enviromental violations that the government has interest in sanctioning them for.

People that got screwed on this still can and will sue the living fuck out of VW.

Wake me when Company Execs can be individually held to account for the company's actions. That's when things start to get better.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

That would be fantastic, but company management is usually shielded by the corporation in this case.

A nice dose of "torches, pitchforks and guillotines" might be in order though.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Austerity Empowers]

It's not necessarily a good solution. They can produce some compliance cars that meet the letter of the agreement, that no one wants to buy, and it won't do any actual good.

If however VW wants to enter the electric car space anyway, this might let them retain the capital required for that investment and shrug off any shareholders (particularly those with oil interests).

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't this be the same as the EU demanding an American company who has done wrong to close a factory in the US and open one in the EU instead? My country has a VW factory that's ready to start producing electric cars. The workers are being retrained and they started building the new production line. The production of the electric cars should start in 2017.
 
This is basically the US telling that they should kill the 2500 jobs in my country and move them to the US, or pay fines. For me this sounds more like blackmailing.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Ichijo]

This is true, but one could make the claim that those emissions standards aren't arbitrary because they were whatever was politically possible at the time.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[haruchai]

Bread & circuses have done as much to shape society as authoritarianism.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[drinkypoo]

Here is a novel idea, have them fix the vehicles at their cost and then fine them to the maximum allowed by law and use the proceeds to build charging stations.

No, you don't get it. They're still not going to get out of dealing with those vehicles and their responsibility to consumers somehow. This is just about their responsibility to the state. VW may well end up having to actually buy those vehicles back, yet! Besides, there is really no feasible way to "fix" those vehicles. They can make them suck by degrading their mileage and making them drive like turds, but there's no room to retrofit the emissions equipment that they would need to install in order to improve emissions without a performance hit.

The ideal solution would be to make them buy back the vehicles and/or convert them to EVs, at the buyer's discretion. While a vehicle purpose-designed to be an EV is a better EV than one converted, conversions do work. As front-heavy as VAG products tend to be, it might even be possible to get the car to have decent weight distribution at the end of the process.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[drinkypoo]

Proud to not be a Real American(tm) then. Back when I put an exhaust system on my 240SX, I could have put a dump pipe on it. It was registered in one of the two California counties where there's no recurring registration requirement. I got a cat anyway. They make high-flow ones. Sadly, they are not legal for OBD-II vehicles...

Re:This is good because of network nature

[drinkypoo]

The best solution would be to make VW to fix the mess and to put VW managment to jail.

Sure, let's just go round up ol' Wolfgang Piech and tell him that he was very very naughty for telling all those departments that they had better produce a result OR THEY ARE GETTING FIRED... Let's face it, that's how capitalism works. You want to shake the trunk of that tree. Good luck!

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Frosty Piss]

I think that's irrelevant. Whatever standards where in place by the Powers That Be here in the US, those are the standards. VW broke the rules in a calculated way. These cars, if not fixed, will have negligible resale value and if fixed, still a lesser resale value. They were sold to customers under dishonest false pretenses (redundant?) and these customers deserve compensation up to and including a full refund.

VW must be punished for this dishonesty in a way that discourages them from ever doing this again (as well as discouraging other from doing this as well), and a fine does not cut it because a fine is simply "the cost of doing business". What the US is asking is something that will not be forgotten by VW.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

I see what you did there

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a very good solution. Rather than just try to slap VW with a fine that they'd shrug off, this would use the resources to help push the entire car market into a better environmental situation and one that is less dependent on fossil fuels as a whole. Electric cars are a technology which works better when there are more electric cars and more charging stations. This is essentially a networking effect. So the resulting push by having another major manufacturer make more electric cars will be substantially more positive than simply fining them.

Just watch.. it will be 5 years before VW produces an electric vehicle it will end up making Teslas look cheap by comparison. So after 3 years of basically no sales, they will cancel the whole line without ever putting in a single charging station. Alternatively, they will use a nonstandard connector for charging so that the only place you can change is a VW approved charging station ( think of it as a cross country tour of all the VW dealerships).

Re:This is good because of network nature

[PopeRatzo]

Back when I put an exhaust system on my 240SX,

I had a '90 240SX and it was a blast to drive. Fortunately in Chicago, where I lived at the time, there is no requirement for cars manufactured in 1995 or previously to meet any emissions requirements or to even be tested.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

Why not? let's shake that trunk with pitchforks and guillotines.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Grishnakh]

Give it up, you're arguing with a libertarian. They think people should be able to do whatever they want without any interference from the government, even if what they want involves murdering people. They're really nothing more than dressed-up anarchists, and this guy proves it.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember when CARB was forcing auto makers to make electric cars for CA, Ford took a stock Ford Ranger, gutted the ICE and put an electric motor in the front and a bunch of batteries in the bed of the truck. GM did come out with the EV1 but as soon as CARB was suckered into Bush/Cheney's hydrogen bullshit GM collected and destroyed all the EV1's(See "Who Killed the Electric Car" ).

So it might work and it might not and it will depend on how willing VW is to put engineering into the task.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[drinkypoo]

I miss that car a lot, but it wasn't practical here in pothole country because it had race suspension on it. That makes me miss it even more today... but (knock on wood) my A8 looks like it's going to pass smog finally. I guess that's assuming it doesn't have a bad cat or something. It got certified as a gross polluter but now I have a new knock sensor and new injector seals, and my lambda correction values look sensible so I'm going to give it another go. I have it on a temporary permit and it is a goddamned rocketship. I realize that by modern standards it is relatively poky for cars in its class, and a slush box will impress no one, but it is probably actually faster over the Hopland Grade (my benchmark, since I like canyons) than my 240SX or my Impreza was. They both had gutless stock power. I could keep up with a C6 'vette by fighting hard with the Impreza, which had WRX wheels. The 240SX's speed was basically gravel-limited in that environment.

Saw a video not too long ago of a S13 fastback with the engine from my A8 in it. Probably about 3000 pounds of car with stripped interior and a rollcage. I bet that would really be hot shit. I could kill myself in that quicker than shit

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

This doesn't put a stop to the class action law suit, I'm sure that will still happen.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Dcnjoe60]

How DOES this let VW and its shareholders off the hook? Please explain. Seems like taking choice away and saying "do this or suffer" isn't letting them off the hoook.

VW was already planning on selling electric vehicles. So, in effect, their "punishment" is to do what they were already going to do.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[zieroh]

it's actually a stupid solution, will compete with Tesla, an American company. Stupid America.

I'm fairly certain Tesla welcomes the competition. Their goal is less about selling cars and more about changing the world for the better.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[zieroh]

What they have one? A dozen? Is that enough or are they going to have to PRODUCE more? Sorry, but that was a pretty moronic comment you made.

They're currently on the road in California. I've actually seen a couple of them. So the product is fully developed and won't require any significant new R&D. Just production of something they are already producing, but on a larger scale.

Not a moronic comment at all.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[zieroh]

A truly bad idea. If VW's heart is not in it they will only do the minimum to keep the government off their back.

Don't be so sure. The largest auto makers are required to produce electric cars for the California market, and all of them are actually doing a pretty good job. Even Fiat, who bitches about it incessantly, managed to make the Fiat 500e, which is a hoot to drive. Not all of the electric cars in the California market are necessarily exciting, but none of them actually suck.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[zieroh]

They could develop a vehicle just for the US market, that was cheap to build and market. I am thinking maybe something like an affordable version of the Smart car?

They already have. It's called the eGolf, and it's already for sale in California.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. I guess they just press a button and they pop into existence.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[BasilBrush]

And it's a good thing.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[BasilBrush]

"Everything" isn't illegal. But fraud is, that that's one of the crimes that VW committed. And in no small way.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not sure what planet you live on, governments tell companies what they can and can not do all the time

The government creates standards that apply to the entire market. They don't tell a particular company what product they must make.

I have owned many VWs. I support VW. I think what they did was wrong, but GM and Takata have killed more people (then again,I don't see how Takata survives). If the electric car plan is what the US government is expecting VW to do to make amends, I think that they should pull out of the US market. People here with the pitchfork seem to forget that the US portion of their global sales is smaller than most of the other auto manufacturers. I would be bummed, but I think that would be the best thing in the long run if the alternate is the government telling you what your product line should be.

In case you haven't heard, with low fuel prices, Americans are buying trucks. The new production line is Chattanooga is for a SUV designed to US market tastes. Americans are not buying fuel efficient cars now. So, VW should stop making a vehicle that might sell in the US and started making a class of vehicle whose market share is declining. Is that how VW achieves its goal of increasing US sales? If that is their option, they might as well leave the US market because they are just going to loose money, either through penalties or through making a car that won't sell.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[phorm]

Yes and no. It will compete for a certain market segment of cars, but more charging stations is better for EVERYONE who sells an EV. The EV market itself is not overly saturated so Tesla could very well benefit from this.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[KGIII]

I can help with this! There's a few of us but, for the moment, I'm the resident automotive aficionado.

It's still an automobile (or car). It just also has a computer. Many cars have computers and they are, in fact, better for it - in many ways. There are some exceptions but, for the most part, they've been using computers in cars for ages and it's still just a car with a computer in it. It's just more computer than usual.

I'm also not a believer that it takes internal combustion to make an automotive experience enjoyable. While it has its benefits, it is not exclusive. There's plenty of enjoyment to be had in an EV in a whole host of situations. I can even find good things to say about a Lada and yes, yes I have driven one.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

When everything is illegal, it gives authority great power to shape society. They get to pick who to punish, and whom to not. They get to direct action and free will suffers as a consequence.

We call it illegal when the government says not to do it. We, nominally, have the ability to change the government. When a company tells you not to do it, they can deny you service if you violate their terms. You get no say in those terms nor who decides to change them. Without government, the companies would pretty much all merge into one cartel and you would work for a company that owned your house, medical plan, mortgage and bank account. Not that you would have the luxury of the last two for long.

Government sucks, but it sucks quite a bit less than the absence of government. If you disagree, be thankful that you can't sign a binding legal agreement that lets me kill you can take your stuff "if I can" in a world where "everything is legal". Because I don't actually care about your stuff, so it's a lot easier to kill you if I burn you alive in your home after pouring gasoline on the entrances and exits. I still get to keep the fireproof stuff after all, and its a lot less risky than a fist fight. See also the Pinkertons.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[KGIII]

Yes, but to accept the former (fully) means to accept some level of responsibility as well as an obligation to work towards fixing it.

The other option is to blame it all on authoritarianism and do nothing and accept no part of the problem nor seek solutions. Which do you think people will pick?

Yes, yes it is a self-feeding problem and it's fueled as much by ego as well. No, no I don't actually have a solution either. But damn if these aren't a fine circus and the bread's not bad either... *sighs*

There's truth to that adage about the getting the government you deserve.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[KGIII]

*sighs* No, no we're not. They're arguing with an idiot who may (or may not be) self-identifying as a Libertarian. The important part is that they're quite probably retarded. Very few Libertarians are Anarchists. Some are minarchists. I'm actually damned near a Socialist - albeit for very different reasons, on the scale. Quite a few of us are similarly minded. Corporations have rights but they're somewhere below that of the individual and the commons. They are afforded certain protections and rights and have an obligation to uphold their end of the social contract.

Ayn Rand was an idiot. Rand Paul is not a Libertarian. Most of the vocal people utilizing the moniker are actually ashamed Republicans. Oddly enough, when you look at their beliefs and the Libertarian ideology, it's hard to see where they could possibly even be wedged in there. I can assure you, I'm far more concerned with your liberty, your ability to make best use of your freedom, and ensuring we do what we can to maintain a functional society with reasonable protections, opportunity, and upward mobility. I really couldn't give two shits about the health of a single corporation, life finds a way.

And no, no... I've been a member of the party for nearly 40 years. We used to be the "loony left." Somehow, everyone got confused, and now we're assumed to be the anarchists or the folks on the right. We might have been stoned but I'm pretty sure we gave you a brochure. You did get one, right? If not then I can probably find you one.

In all seriousness... I'll get you a brochure - even if I gotta write the damned thing myself. Or, you can just read the first four or so paragraphs on Wikipedia and get a good idea of what a Libertarian might be. It's not a bad article, I am kind of surprised. Some Libertarians are, indeed, Anarchists. You can safely ignore them. They're just noisy but they're not allowed to use the fine china. It'd be antithetical if we told them that they didn't belong or took away their microphone so it is what it is.

In all seriousness, not even the majority of Libertarians are retarded. Oh, we have our share of fruitcakes and retards, don't get me wrong. But they're actually just the noisy people and they get the most attention. Most of us aren't followers of Rand, Republicans ashamed to use the name in polite company, or even teens. We actually understand the ideology, the precepts, and have varied ways to reach those goals or work towards them - except for our vocal set of nimrods. Sorry for the confusion.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[KGIII]

I'll help your English out. "Disillusioned." That means they've had their illusions stripped away. They're "delusional." If they pay attention and agree to your post, they might be disillusioned. Probably not but it could happen. Either way, disillusioned happens when you're no longer subject to the illusion.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Go read the law. It wasnt calculated to slip through the cracks. I thought so at first too. But the law they broke is probably one of the most specific laws I have ever read. It was designed specifically for there not to be loopholes around it.

I think this is a great solution for such a brazen breaking of the law. We wont fine you. We are just going to force you to invest your own money to create a solution to the problem you tried to side step.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[KGIII]

I want to extend my sincere appreciation. No, I've been saying (since about day two, maybe even day one) that I hope their shares tank in value. They've done a decent drop. I can't wait until they get low enough. As promised then, and reiterated now, I'll actually let Slashdot know when I pull the trigger.

I'm going to wait until their share value drops, I'll buy up to 2000 shares, and then I'll hold it for at least a year and see where it is. (Always at least a year - I don't even check fluctuations in that time.) I'll let folks know when I sell 'em too. Yes, it's a big investment but I can risk it. I also don't need an immediate return but I expect their return growth rate to be really, really high compared to the averages and adjusted for inflation. I won't be greedy. I'll wait until it's down at like $25/share. I'll wait until it's $250 to sell. It'll be back at those numbers in six months. In a year it will be a bit more healthy.

So, drive that share value into the ground. Make them damned near worthless based on market reactions and speculation. I'll donate 10% of the profit to EFF and another 10% to the ACLU. Drive 'em into the basement. I'm all for it. You, my outraged fellow Slashdotters, are doing good things and those of us who can take the risks applaud your efforts.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[davester666]

This is TOTALLY WRONG. The gov't must get out of the way of the free market, as it is ALWAYS self-correcting. VW would eventually come around and produce clean-burning diesel vehicles on their own, just through normal market forces, or they would go out of business. It's a fundamental law of nature. Like gravity.

Everybody knows this.

Once Trump get's elected, this will get fixed up real good.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[thegarbz]

They *have* the product, they just aren't selling it 'cause their bread-n-butter is internal combustion. So the choice is a few billion in fines, or a few billion in getting serious about selling electric cars.

Maybe they have a product but aren't selling it because it is no viable or finished? Porsche's first car was electric, why aren't all cars electric? etc.

The government should not be dictating the technology used, they should be dictating the goals and letting manufacturers chose the technology. Nothing good ever comes from stifling potential innovation by telling someone what to design.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[thegarbz]

The best solution would be to make VW to fix the mess and to put VW managment to jail.

Given that the people ultimately responsible for the decision are not Americans and not living in America, how do you propose to do this?

Re:This is good because of network nature

[thegarbz]

I am not sure what planet you live on, governments tell companies what they can and can not do all the time, and should. DO you have seat belts, air bags, catalytic convectors?

Industry solutions to specific problems, now part of a government standard. No one says you're not allowed to manufacture a car without seatbelts just that it won't be road worthy, and no one says exactly how that seatbelt should look, but rather only set minimum requirements.

Does your refrigerator not have a locking dock

A what?

does your new house have lead based paint, do you kids toys have lead based paint,

It still has paint and can still be the same colour.

do you drink clean water?

I do. But no one is mandating I drink coke because the water isn't clean.

I could go on for hours, but you would simply say they should do any of that stuff, people should take care of painting their own homes and processing their own water...

Please don't, because all regulations aren't the same. That's one fundamental thing you're missing here. The government in this case is dictating the technology not the outcome. I can't go to you and say you will now manufacturer a computer screen. That's a very specific flavour of government right there. I can however say if you manufacturer a screen you will be required to meet the following measurable outcome criteria.

When the government specifies a technology everyone loses. The government didn't specify what the alternative to lead was. They don't specify the exact process to get water to meet the specifications.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Take a step back.

Thus far we've had VW falsify emissions in response to the free market demands for higher MPG and power, and somehow even more free markets will help correct this?

Bit of corkscrews in the brain.

And while forcing them to pay boat loads of money in fines or throwing executives in jail does satisfy the revenge tendency, it really doesn't correct the problem.

Or, you can have them build infrastructure and electric vehicles, hopefully turn a small profit on it, and satisfy the requirements the original regs were meant to address in the first place.

You give people who thoughtfully support free markets a bad name.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[drinkypoo]

What they have one? A dozen? Is that enough or are they going to have to PRODUCE more? Sorry, but that was a pretty moronic comment you made.

News flash: Volkswagen is an automaker. That is to say, they make automobiles. If they have to produce more, well, they can do that. Besides the e-Golf, they've recently shown an electric minivan, to show off their new EV platform. VW wants us to believe that they are ready to produce EVs if they so choose, so... their bluff has been called. They can put up, or fuck off.

EVs are selling like dookie right now, because OPEC. But they'll pick up again, with the fuel prices. It's not a matter of whether fuel prices will rise again, but how long before it happens. Auto company economists are betting that it won't be exceptionally soon, but they are expecting it in the mid-term, not the long-term.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

I think a feel a breeze on the back of my neck. It's making a kind of whooshing sound, as if somewhere, someone missed obvious sarcasm.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[pablo_max]

Hefty fine would probably hurt only VW employees anyway.

Are you joking? I can't tell.
The "fine" and following lawsuits which are being proposed are actually enough to bankrupt the VAG. This does not ONLY impact VAG (VW Audi Group). There is a massive supply chain which goes into car production. There is a fare numbers of VWs made in the US, did you know that?
Did you know that a great many companies in the US produce the electronics for VW and Audi?
What about the dealers? Do they not employ people? VAG employees almost 600,000 people world wide. That is a LOT of lives which rely on VW for their well-being. Do all of those people deserve to suffer because the management cheated?

Also, what is the US government going to do with the money VW gives them? Buy more bombs to drop on brown people? Will that somehow help you?
Why not have them spend the money on something which actually make the situation better in the long term?

Re:This is good because of network nature

[FlyHelicopters]

I had a '90 240SX and it was a blast to drive. Fortunately in Chicago, where I lived at the time, there is no requirement for cars manufactured in 1995 or previously to meet any emissions requirements or to even be tested.

Why is that "fortunate"?

That is terrible and is part of the problem of pollution, grandfathering...

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would it be better for the environment to move production of electric cars to the U.S.? If they expand production in Germany they will probably use cleaner power and cleaner-produced components and raw materials. Environmental laws are generally a lot stricter in Europe.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, actually I do - if you want to turn a blind eye to corporate malfeasance in the name of an ideological conformance to capitalism, you're welcome to it.

Those of us who don't would like to make this world a better place, not create a shithole for the love of money.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

They have been selling electric Golfs for years, just mostly in countries where they think there is a sizeable market. Companies tend not to offer products when they don't think they will sell any.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

That hasn't quite been proven yet. Anyway, VW seems to get treated a lot more harshly than all the other car makers who did similar things.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

While not arbitrary in the sense that they took a lot of lobbying to get to those precise figures, they are arbitrary with respect to the purpose that they claim to serve. There is no sane environmental or public health reason to have extremely strict NOx limits and very lax particulates and carbon monoxide limits at the same time. Nor is there to have a different (and more permissive) set of rules for large and heavy vehicles that were arbitrarily designated as light commercial vehicles, even though they are primarily used to transport people.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Maxo-Texas]

So right. The government should just fine VW a billion dollars and bankrupt the company. Then waste the money on some extra tanks to park in the desert and not use to keep the corporate welfare going to people in states with senior senators and representatives.

Oh wait... that's terrible. The original plan is an awesome plan. It's a great plan. Not as good as charging flame throwers head on but pretty good. I LOVE the original plan.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Smidge204]

Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy then, isn't it?

=Smidge=

Re:This is good because of network nature

[zazzel]

Hell yeah, "asking VW". Essentially, they are "asking" VW in the same way that the mob "asks" for protection money (lest you want a severed horse's head on your doorstep, and more). That is statism. Some agency decides what customers are to buy. On a side note, I always wonder where that notion is coming from that (current) electric cars were "cleaner" overall, given that the electricity they use is not renewable, and the lithium used in batteries is produced from mines you don't want to see.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only did the vehicles not meet those standards, but VW falsified the results.

That's not actually true. If you read into the matter, you will find that the issue is that some of VW's diesel engines change behaviour during test conditions. The results were not falsified - they are merely not indicative of real-world driving. That's a different violation (when done on purpose).

Suggesting that they should not be told what to do is counter productive.

It makes total sense. VW should fix the vehicles to remove defeat device software and make sure they are within limits under all realistic conditions, like they are doing with affected cars in Europe and in principle it is reasonable that they should pay a fine that is proportionate to the offence, but in this case the badmouthing and outright lying by American government officials, politicians and the media has already done far more damage than is reasonable given the offence.

Building an electric charging network would be good, but I don't think that is VW's responsibility any more than others. If it has a sound business case, they will do it. Moving production of electric cars to the U.S. only makes sense if there is enough demand in North America. Producing in the U.S. for the local market is generally a lot cheaper, but when producing vehicles that meet European customer expectations, the cost goes up. That only works out if you have a reasonably high-margin product where demand is stronger in the U.S. than elsewhere (like the BMW X5). Electric versions of bread-and-butter cars like the Polo and the Golf are low-margin and mostly sold in Europe. Maybe it would make sense to build an electric SUV in Tennessee, or an electric version of the Amarok.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Smidge204]

Maybe they have a product but aren't selling it because it is no viable or finished?

It is finished. It's on the market, but only if you happen to live in on the of the handful of places that sells it. Even if you find a dealer what sells them, you'll have to ask for it explicitly and they'll probably try to sell you something else anyway.

The government should not be dictating the technology used, they should be dictating the goals and letting manufacturers chose the technology.

They DID set the goals, and the manufacturers cheated. So now the manufacturers blew their chance and they get more restrictions. Good, I say.

Nothing good ever comes from stifling potential innovation by telling someone what to design.

Well, good thing that's not at all what's being discussed then, huh?
=Smidge=

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you don't get it. They're still not going to get out of dealing with those vehicles and their responsibility to consumers somehow. This is just about their responsibility to the state. VW may well end up having to actually buy those vehicles back, yet! Besides, there is really no feasible way to "fix" those vehicles. They can make them suck by degrading their mileage and making them drive like turds, but there's no room to retrofit the emissions equipment that they would need to install in order to improve emissions without a performance hit.

They can retrofrit an AdBlue SCR system. That does not take up much space and we are talking about the US market, so the Golf is actually the smallest car they sell over there. The big challenge is probably to make a retrofit kit that dealers can install quickly. However, the biggest challenge is probably to get the US EPA and CARB to agree. They seem to be taking their time and rejecting everything proposed without telling anyone why. Meanwhile, recalls in Europe were approved months ago and are already well underway.

The ideal solution would be to make them buy back the vehicles and/or convert them to EVs, at the buyer's discretion.

I think that is a pretty elaborate case of scope creep. The issue is that the cars do not currently adhere to local regulations and all that is called for is to amend that without any serious disadvantages to the customer. VW are doing that right now in Europe and while it may take a more expensive solution to meet CARB norms than Euro 5, it can be done.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[AmiMoJo]

Electric VWs have been on sale for a while in Europe. They are okay, unremarkable and not particularly interesting or competitively priced.

This year is going to be a big year for EVs, so it's likely VW will announce something either way. In March we will have Tesla announcing the Model 3 and beginning pre-orders, although delivery won't be until early 2018 which is kinda crazy. The Model 3 will set the benchmark - they have confirmed the $35k before subsidy pricing for the base model, and we expect a 200 mile range.

Nissan plan to release a new Leaf by the end of the year, which will probably have similar range and pricing to the Tesla. Renault have been teasing a 200 mile range Zoe EV too. Early next we GM will release their 200 mile range EV.

Those cars should fix most of the range anxiety issues and get prices down to the level the majority of new cars sell at. Then EVs will really start to become mainstream, as people realize that the maintenance costs and fuelling costs are so much lower.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Once you say Trump supporter, all bets are off.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

How does this "settlement" help the people who were defrauded by VW when they purchased these vehicles?

Nobody was defrauded by VW. Firstly, VW did not know their engines contained this code. Secondly, the customers where not disadvantaged in any way. Moreover, the purpose of the settlement is not to help people, but to get money from a foreign company into U.S. coffers.

How does this settlement do anything other than let VW and its shareholders off the hook?

Why should VW's shareholders and anyone within VW other than the people who actually ordered and did this be punished? They had no part and are having to deal with the consequences more than anyone else already.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

EVs are selling like dookie right now, because OPEC.

Only because of stupid people. Electricity is cheaper than even the cheapest gasoline. If this was not so, you would cut the connection to the utility company and use a gas-powered generator to power your home & TV - it'd be cheaper! But that is not going to happen. The only time you ever use a generator is when electricity is "infinitely expensive" because there is no (working) power lines nearby.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[thegarbz]

but only if you happen to live in on the of the handful of places that sells it.

I wonder why that is? Tell me, do you have an electric car? Would you buy a Tesla without the ability to charge it anywhere? I see electric cars constantly, and I do see e-Golfs around the place. Typically I see them plugged into publically available power outlets which every parking garage in my city provides, and every other street provides too. Do you have those in your city? Why should a company be forced to sell a product that doesn't work in your area and isn't popular in your area?

They DID set the goals, and the manufacturers cheated. So now the manufacturers blew their chance and they get more restrictions. Good, I say.

Bad I say. If you think a "Good" outcome is government to design a final product and force you to sell it then all you achieve is a business pulling out.
On the other hand someone cheated on regulations. Are you saying your regulations and regulatory bodies have no teeth? Sounds like I should start doing business in the USA. Speaking of, if I get a very large fine, can I ask the government to bail me out? The way you government handles corporations is a true disgrace.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Smidge204]

I wonder why that is?

Because of corporate inertia, mostly. There's too much money to be made in the status quot and the risks to breaking out into a new market are not clear enough for some.

For others, however, it's clearly the way forward. Nissan in particular has bet a lot on electric cars being a sizable market segment and have been making good progress despite being one of the first to really stick their necks out.

Tell me, do you have an electric car?

No, but then again I've owned my current car for about 10 years and it's still in great shape. I've never advocated junking a perfectly good car for new and shiny.

However, my next car will absolutely be electric. It's a question of when, not if.

Would you buy a Tesla without the ability to charge it anywhere?

If I didn't have the ability to charge an electric car, I would think twice about buying *any* car - because that would mean I don't have access to electricity, which implies I don't even have a place to live. So I guess the answer to your question is "No" but not for the reasons you wanted it to be.

I see electric cars constantly, and I do see e-Golfs around the place.

This statement conflicts with things you've said earlier. So where you being a disingenuous dickhead previously, or are you lying now?

On the other hand someone cheated on regulations. Are you saying your regulations and regulatory bodies have no teeth?

The teeth are in forcing the manufacturers to act a certain way, like producing a product that meets specific requirements.

You are now simultaneously complaining about a regulatory agency not having teeth AND that same regulatory agency using its teeth to force manufacturers into compliance with the law. Can't have it both ways, bub.
=Smidge=

Re:This is good because of network nature

[KozmoStevnNaut]

Black helicopters.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

you are in cloud cuckoo land.

EV's are only OK for short distances, and you need to drive them over 200,000 just to wipe out the purchase cost V fuel cost of a normal car.

live 15 miles to work then your probably OK.

20+ miles and your going to be worried all time if your going to get home, and in the winter you will freeze your ass off.

nice tech but way too many problems so far.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

put VW managment to jail

Why not put the people who did it in jail instead?

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry to inform you that north of 80% of what rolls off the e-Golf production line in Wolfsburg is literally heading north. To Norway to be precise.

The phenomenal tax breaks and other benefits electric mobility is enjoying in Norway means e-Golf is even outselling its fossile siblings, and that Golf regardless of fuel is the single most selling car model in Norway with some margin. But that still amounts to just 10.000 e-Golfs a year. Second most popular electric vehicle is Tesla Model S with 4000 vehicles. Even so, that makes Model S the fifth most popular car model in Norway 2015. Then follows Nissan Leaf with 3000 vehicles.

Sooo, I've got one of these fabled e-Golfs. And here where I live they are anything but mythical. Great car, but sub-par SW.

Why so? Electric vehicles are for the time being tax exempt in Norway. Fossils may easily be taxed up to a 100%

Re:This is good because of network nature

[squiggleslash]

The government is offering this instead of a fine. What do you think happens if VW says "No"? Its executives are hauled off to jail? VW is banned in the US?

No. What happens is the original penalties apply.

This is the equivalent of the police telling a serial shoplifter they have two options: A trial and likely jail sentence, or they can go on a community service program cleaning up the roads in front of the businesses they damaged.

It is entirely fine, proper, and in the public interest, for the government to offer an offender the option of doing something that would benefit the community at large as an alternative to a punishment that wouldn't change a thing.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[vivian]

Yeah but besides seat belts, air bags, catalytic converters, locking docks, lead paint bans and clean water, what has the government ever done for us?

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Dcnjoe60]

The government is offering this instead of a fine. What do you think happens if VW says "No"? Its executives are hauled off to jail? VW is banned in the US?

No. What happens is the original penalties apply.

This is the equivalent of the police telling a serial shoplifter they have two options: A trial and likely jail sentence, or they can go on a community service program cleaning up the roads in front of the businesses they damaged.

It is entirely fine, proper, and in the public interest, for the government to offer an offender the option of doing something that would benefit the community at large as an alternative to a punishment that wouldn't change a thing.

That would be fine if they were caught shoplifting. However, they falsified government records. They, perjured themselves and in terms of monetary damage, it falls under grand theft. Would a prosecutor (the police don't get the choice), really let such a person off with community service.

What VW did is equivalent to what Bernie Madoff did. Both bilked the public of millions of dollars and both falsified government records. Why not let him off and for his punishment, he has to sell investments? That is the equivalent of this so called punishment.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Truth_Quark]

The other aspect of the dishonesty was that they gave themselves an advantage over their competitors.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

The US government should not be telling companies, domestic or foreign, what products they must make or what services they must provide.

Why do Libertairians hate sovereignty?

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Forgefather]

That and it pushes the EV market closer to the critical mass point where large scale deployment of charging stations becomes economically viable, thus ameliorating the largest barrier to buying and EV: range anxiety.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Forgefather]

The big problem with just paying the fine is the sheer scale of money at stake. If the US government were to actually fine VW for the full amount then VW would go bankrupt causing the destruction of untold numbers of jobs, as well as putting a serious damper on relations with Germany. If they reduce the fine so that VW is able to pay then VW wraps the fine into the cost of business and goes on its merry way. Obviously neither of these are an ideal solution which is why a third option was presented.

The third solution is to force VW to pay the full amount of the fine in a manner that doesn't bankrupt them. IE investing in certain infrastructure an manufacturing that repays America for the laws that they broke, while also offering them the possibility of earning back their investment. This has several benefits for the American people, most obvious of which is that it brings high skill manufacturing jobs to the United States. Manufacturing jobs are almost always excellent for the economy as it represents a large chain of supply benefiting many people along the way.

Another benefit is that is cements America as the center for development on electric vehicles. This is a position that could be invaluable in the long term as it represents the potential for large influxes of talent into American markets and the potential for high value exports. All of this will directly benefit the American people, who were the people harmed by the flaunting of the law in the first place.

While I do agree that it doesn't feel right to see them get off "scott free" the solutions that have everyone win are often times worth the sacrifice. This method, if implemented well, could represent a genuinely positive long term solution.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[LifesABeach]

And the crouch bros are ok with this?

Re:This is good because of network nature

[LifesABeach]

I see the dumb ass irony. So, how about VW pay the government to do this instead? I think that would make negotiations with the Elon Musk plan conclude a little smother?

Re:This is good because of network nature

[drinkypoo]

EVs are selling like dookie right now, because OPEC.

Only because of stupid people. Electricity is cheaper than even the cheapest gasoline.

It costs substantially more up front to buy an EV and a charger than to buy a gasoline vehicle. If you're not swimming in cash, it's difficult to justify such purchases. Remember, more people are living paycheck to paycheck these days, the economy has not recovered to the extent that people think it has just because some of the people who do have jobs can afford to buy cars. Most of them are basing their purchase decisions on low fuel prices, which are just going to go back up and drive a lot of them to default on their loans.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[saigon_from_europe]

That is pretty much standard procedure. They have made a conspiracy in order to break the US law, and they have broken USA law. US should bring charges against them in US court. If they don't appear in court, US can ask their extradition. If Germany refuses to do so, USA can make an international warrant for them. First time they leave Germany, the country where they are would arrest them and then USA will have to start a procedure to get them to USA. It takes some time, but it is pretty much standard and established procedure.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[saigon_from_europe]

put VW managment to jail

Why not put the people who did it in jail instead?

VW managment was the one who did this. They knew about this and did nothing about it, so they were/are a part of a criminal conspiracy.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, I'm sure the government is willing to give VW a choice. They're not going to force VW to make/sell EVs. VW could always choose to just leave the American market altogether.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

So then VW will be as profitable as Tesla ? SCNR

Re: This is good because of network nature

[silentcoder]

Nor is this punishment "cruel". It does say cruel AND unusual not "cruel OR unusual".

It's also not even very unusual - a lot of the law is about suitable recompense for harm. The entire civil justice system is like that. A huge part of VW's crime was fraud - they lied to consumers about what they were buying, this would be a suitable recompense to both those consumers and the government I think.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[silentcoder]

You're conflating the legal and the common meanings of "arbitrary" - but in terms of that constitutional right only the former applies, and these standards meet none of the requirements for it.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[silentcoder]

I would be okay with "instead of a refund, we could give you this brand new electric vehicle".

Re:This is good because of network nature

[silentcoder]

Nowhere is government here wanting to "design a final product", they are merely setting a product requirement, how that is met is still up to VW. But nice strawman.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

it will be 5 years before VW produces an electric vehicle it will end up making Teslas look cheap by comparison

VW already sells electric vehilces that make Teslas look cheap by comparison.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[silentcoder]

Erm... if you're worried about making a trip which is less than half of even the lowest-rated EV's range, then the problem isn't with the cars, it's with your education.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[silentcoder]

If this is what "more government" looks like - you've just made all the republican scare-talk about it's evils evaporate.

Apparently, "more government" is a sudden attack of good sense !

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

How? Explicitly checking for test conditions rather than optimising for them (like most competitors seem to be doing) may be slightly more 'evil', but it does not make the engine any cheaper to build or more attractive to the customer.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[silentcoder]

Brand them terrorists (this would actually be a more apt meaning of "eco-terrorism" than what it usually refers to) and throw them in Gitmo.

If you can do it a sheep-herder from middle-of-fucking-nowhere Afghanistan then you can do it to the CEO of a billion dollar multinational corporation. If you can't do it to the latter, you can't do it to the former either. That's the whole POINT of your constitution. Get that one right or get out of town, the rest is simply less important because without that one - the others are an illusion anyway, you will never actually get to USE those rights without getting this one fixed. A plutocracy is no better for freedom than an autocracy, and in many ways worse since autocrats have far less interest in the average individual citizen than plutocrats do.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[silentcoder]

What do you propose ? That Durex offers a returns program ? You can return yourself and be replaced by a cleaner model ?

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia VUU!

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

A correct remedy for violating the emission standards would be a fine. But this is more than violating emissions. People purchased these vehicles because of the supposedly clean nature of the vehicle along with the high mpg.

This is really utter nonsense. Very few (if any) buyers select a car based on NOx emissions. Additionally, VW never claimed these vehicles to be any cleaner than competing vehicles. They claimed they met Euro 5 norms (as did other cars for sale at the time) and now it turns out that they did so by cheating. However, the real-world emissions are comparable to other Euro 5 cars and lower even than some (supposedly not cheating) Euro 6 cars.

Of course bringing the cars in line with the emissions will kill the mpg.

Not necessarily. VW claims that the EA189 recalls will not negatively affect fuel economy or performance. So far, this seems to hold up for the Amaroks that have already had their software updated.

VW new this was the case and as such this is fraud.

Fraud is, by definition, intentional. VW did not even know about the suspicion of a defeat device software until 2014 and they weren't sure until 2015.

They should be required to refund the purchase price of the vehicles to those who purchased them for breach of contract and intent to defraud.

VW needs to fix the cars at their cost and nothing more. The car owners did not experience any disadvantages due to the illegal software. VW was already extremely generous in offering them $1000 without any conditions.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[pastafazou]

Regarding the issue of defrauding customers, a full refund is a bit ridiculous, as these cars are years old. Second, people aren't buying them because they're advertised as clean. They're buying them for the high mpg, and assume that they meet the required emissions standards. Customers who put an emphasis on clean emissions would put all electric or hybrid vehicles well ahead of a VW diesel. Maybe VW should be forced to buy back customer's vehicles at fair market value or install the proper tech to clean up the emissions for those that want to keep their VW diesel.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Dcnjoe60]

I agree people purchased them for the high mpg. To remedy the issue with the emission standards, they will no longer have that high mpg. VW can't buy them back at fair market value because the value has plummeted because of this. VW sold a very expensive consumer product that was intentionally mislabeled and deceptive. Other companies in a similar situation have had to issue full refunds. How old the vehicle is shouldn't matter. If you are caught cheating, you need to make the consumer whole again. Whether it is a full refund or a new vehicle, doesn't matter. Either will work and there is actually precedent for it.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

The big problem with just paying the fine is the sheer scale of money at stake. If the US government were to actually fine VW for the full amount then VW would go bankrupt causing the destruction of untold numbers of jobs, as well as putting a serious damper on relations with Germany.

Why do you suppose they would not simply pull out of the US and kindly ask the US to treat their own companies the same way in the future? The U.S. is a small market for VW. They will not hold on to it at any cost.

The third solution is to force VW to pay the full amount of the fine in a manner that doesn't bankrupt them. IE investing in certain infrastructure an manufacturing that repays America for the laws that they broke, while also offering them the possibility of earning back their investment.

Why should America be "repaid" for broken laws? It has not cost America any money. It is only fair that VW should fix the affected cars and maybe pay for measures to offset any environmental damage if it can be established there actually was any, but I don't see why the Americans should profit from it. They have already caused a great deal of unnecessary damage by blowing this issue so much out of proportion (especially compared to how they handled it when GM was caught doing the same thing) and by stalling and rejecting every recall proposal VW throws at them.

All of this will directly benefit the American people, who were the people harmed by the flaunting of the law in the first place.

How? Firstly, nobody was harmed. Secondly, less than five percent of the cars affected were sold in the U.S.

While I do agree that it doesn't feel right to see them get off "scott free" the solutions that have everyone win are often times worth the sacrifice. This method, if implemented well, could represent a genuinely positive long term solution.

Moving production to the U.S. does not mean that everybody wins. It means the Americans get rewarded for their disgusting tactics and other possible production locations lose. I don't think that is fair or reasonable in any way.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

I can pretty much guarantee you they will not be stupid enough to travel to a country that will extradite people to a country they have probably never even set foot in for supposedly conspiring to break laws they probably never heard of.

If they broke any actual laws, they should be prosecuted in Germany. Investigations are still ongoing. If they did not, they just have to be careful not to enter countries that have crept too deep in Washington's rectum.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

The main point of a constitution is that it applies to the country it is the constitution of. It is irrelevant elsewhere. Additionally, it is a bit of a stretch to call cheating an emissions test 'eco-terrorism'. It's like claiming cheating during an exam is the exact same thing as a school shooting. Kidnapping and detaining people unlawfully, like you propose, is a couple of orders of magnitude worse, for example.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

This is totally bogus. Their original quest to end ultra high mileage diesel began with the premise that it was TOO efficient and they made up an impossible solution to the non-problem: to make it less polluting they say it had to be made LESS efficient. Now think about that for a minute. In order to make it less polluting, it must get far less mileage and therefore produce much more carbon per mile.
 
The only thing wrong with it is neither the oil companies nor government think they were making enough money off of it, consumers were getting something close to free energy, and so it had to go. The solution? A non-scandal about how much mileage it got and that it should not get that much mileage ("turn in your illegally fuel-efficient vehicle") and the public bought it. Barnum was right.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[AmiMoJo]

I live about 16 miles from work, but sometimes have to make trips to another location about 15 miles away during the day. So a total of over 60 miles per day sometimes. I normally charge my car to 80% to extend battery life. It's a Nissan Leaf and I have no trouble at all covering that distance.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

That will surely teach VW not to make a vehicle that gets such highly fuel efficient mileage. Don't they know the oil companies don't like cars like that because they don't make as much money for oil executives? And the government doesn't like not making as much taxes off of cars that use so little fuel (44% greater than the average car on the road today). Punish them! Make something up on them! Get them!

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you not follow the news? They stopped selling affected cars and they started organising a recall right after they found out.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

It costs substantially more up front to buy an EV and a charger than to buy a gasoline vehicle.

You're right, it does. But costs are coming down every year. There are some big announcements due this year from several manufacturers that will bring the cost of an EV down further. We are no longer in first-adopter territory; EVs are mainstream now and continuing to get cheaper.

If you're not swimming in cash, it's difficult to justify such purchases.

That applies to all new cars. Almost all new cars are bought with loans which means that people pay monthly for them.

EVs have lower running costs which offsets a slightly higher loan payment. If you plan to actually use the car, the EV will probably be cheaper for you month-on-month.

But even then I'll say again: the prices are coming down, and coming down quickly. The costs of buying a car with a traditional IC engine are not changing at all. At the current rate of change, it'll only take a few more years for EVs to start having cheaper sticker prices than ICs, even without considering the fuel savings.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Verdatum]

When the government has a company over a barrel for screwing up royally, then they potentially get the ability to make negotiations, such as "promise to set up production and we will fine you the minimum", or cut you some grant money or whatever.

It's true the oil prices are currently low, but tooling up to make electric cars in TN could take 5 years, easily. Oil prices will almost certainly not still be low then.

Penalties are a straight loss. Setting up production for a car, even if it doesn't sell much (and it will sell at least some, VW fanboys will be drooling all over whatever they make) they have the potential to at least come closer to breaking even if not adding revenue.

Curiously, I suspect the government's real interest here is to add jobs to Chattanooga. That place has plenty of potential, but a huge chunk of their industry ran off, leaving massive unemployment.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

The other choice might have been to bankrupt VW and use the money they drain from them to implement this _government_policy_ anyway. This way the government is business friendly I'd say :)

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only has it been proven, it has been *admitted* by VW.
You're more than a little behind the curve there with your protestations.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

How? They advertised a car that gets X MPG, and Y HP, with pollution level Z or lower.
The car, in fact, could not do all of those things at the same time.
In fact, it could *only* achieve the pollution threshold when running in a special mode specifically intended to handle the test, under which conditions it could *not* achieve the MPG *or* HP thresholds.

What the sold to customers was a car that did X, Y, and Z.
What the customers *got* was a car that did X and/or Y, but wasn't legal to *drive*, because it failed Z.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Firstly, VW did not know their engines contained this code.

Let's see... VW car... VW engine... VW engine controller... code written by VW engineers...

How could anybody *possibly* get the idea that VW knew anything about this?! It's *impossible* that VW could be at fault for code written by their engineers, controlling their engines, in their cars!!!!

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

The electricity they use is as clean as the source used to generate it. That can be anything from wind to nuclear to coal, *any* of which are less polluting than the ICE in a gasoline or diesel automobile.

The lithium used in batteries is, indeed produced from mines. So is coal. So is oil (we just don't *call* those 'mines', because they look different). The *only* way electric cars aren't cleaner than gasoline or diesel cars is if you take all the inputs to create the electric car, but *ignore* anything other than the fuel actually burned by the ICE car.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Could you cite me a source to either proof or admission of fraud? That is what GP was claiming. As far as I am aware, VW only admitted violating the Clean Air Act.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[sjames]

You must not be aware of prison work programs. Are you telling me all those prisoners want to make license plates and clean up litter as a hobby?

Re:This is good because of network nature

[sjames]

sell a product that doesn't work in your area

That's why they're also to be required to set up charging stations. Problem solved!

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Dcnjoe60]

You must not be aware of prison work programs. Are you telling me all those prisoners want to make license plates and clean up litter as a hobby?

You find a way to put VW in prison and then we can discuss prison work programs. Until then, its a moot point.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[sjames]

Well, bodily putting VW in prison is problematic at best but there's no reason not to put it in a work program.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[ProfBooty]

I just checked autotrader, surprisingly TDIs are still selling for a premium, even with double the miles of other trimlines. Around 3-5k or so, just like they did before the scandal.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[pastafazou]

All that's needed is to add a urea tank; it'll cost VW thousands per car, but it will maintain the mpg while achieving the emissions reductions required. As far as fair market value, you would base the value on an equivalent non-VW, as opposed to market value for a non-compliant VW.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[silentcoder]

Cheating on a school exam doesnt usually kill anyone. Cheating on a safety test always kills lots of people. VWs cheating has directly caused 60 deaths so far this year and its only February. Hell even the LRA - deadliest terrorist group on earth - cant manage an average of 2.4 people every day. Not even close.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

VWs cheating has directly caused 60 deaths so far this year and its only February

How?

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

That would be fine if they were caught shoplifting. However, they falsified government records.

Dieselgate is about engines that behave differently when performing certain emissions tests, not about falsification of government records.

What VW did is equivalent to what Bernie Madoff did.

Madoff ran a Ponzi scheme; VW sold cars that contain software that is not allowed by regulations. Frankly, I cannot think of a single similarity.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

How? They advertised a car that gets X MPG, and Y HP, with pollution level Z or lower.

They did not actually advertise that. I have never seen a car advert that mentioned NOx emissions.

What the customers *got* was a car that did X and/or Y, but wasn't legal to *drive*, because it failed Z.

Firstly, it is not legal to sell it, but it is perfectly legal to drive it. Secondly, the reason is not that its NOx emissions exceed a given value, but because it performs differently (by design of the software) during tests than on the road. That is the breach this whole case is about. The vast majority of diesel cars emit many times more NOx on the road than in tests, but that is legal as long as they do not check for testing conditions explicitly in the engine management software.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree people purchased them for the high mpg. To remedy the issue with the emission standards, they will no longer have that high mpg.

The cars that have already been recalled have retained their fuel economy. If needed, they may resort to SCR or other more expensive solutions for the recall in the U.S., but I cannot imagine it will involve tradeoffs that disadvantage the owner. That would be very stupid at this point.

VW sold a very expensive consumer product that was intentionally mislabeled and deceptive.

It was not intentionally mislabelled. VW did not know it contained illicit software.

Other companies in a similar situation have had to issue full refunds

All previous cases of defeat devices were handled with recalls and a small fine. The $1000 VW paid to owners of EA189-equipped cars is already unprecedented.

Either will work and there is actually precedent for it.

Please enlighten us with a source that documents this case. I cannot find any.

Re:This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Except for the lead paint bans (which came in place long after manufacturers stopped making leaded paint) and clean water, none of those things were developed by the government.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[silentcoder]

Poisoning them.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

[citation needed]

Re: This is good because of network nature

[silentcoder]

Go suck an exhaust pipe. Citation enough ?

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[silentcoder]

Since you didnt actually do the experiment, your dismisal of the predicted results is fraudulent.

Re: This is good because of network nature

[Anonymous Coward]

You are making an absurd claim, so the burden of proof lies on your side, not on mine. Please suck on an exhaust pipe yourself and show me the references that produces to support your original statement.

Good call

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember someone here proposed just this as a suggested penalty.

Whoever it was ... good call !!

Re:Good call

[Anonymous Coward]

I think Elon Musk said something like this in a Slashdot article

Nuclear Power

[johnsmithperson123]

I'm still not buying one until I can swap out the batteries with a nuclear reactor. Alert: Low Fuel: 1,000,000,000 miles before empty.

Re:Nuclear Power

[Anonymous Coward]

With nuclear power, it's not the radioactive materials you have to replace, it's the coolant.

Re:Nuclear Power

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Utterly impractical. Want to die from unshielded radiation?

Re:Nuclear Power

[Anonymous Coward]

My ex's heart should be enough to cool it down forever.

Re:Nuclear Power

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you not play fallout 3 or 4? They illustrate perfectly "What could possibly go wrong?".

Re:Nuclear Power

[Anonymous Coward]

You just add a shield. Since you don't have to refuel, you might as well just add a bigger engine and it can handle the weight of a proper shield. The real problem would be what if you have a head on collision with another nuclear powered car? The risk of uncontrollable meltdowns is what killed the fusion car. It was in the design phase at some point, but never built due to concerns regarding collisions.

Re:Nuclear Power

[Christian Smith]

The risk of uncontrollable meltdowns is what killed the fusion car. It was in the design phase at some point, but never built due to concerns regarding collisions.

That, and the fact we don't even have static fusion power yet.

Re:Nuclear Power

[Christian Smith]

I'm still not buying one until I can swap out the batteries with a nuclear reactor.
Alert: Low Fuel: 1,000,000,000 miles before empty.

Nah. Just the ability to swap the batteries at the "filling station" would be good enough. A 200 mile range is no problem if all you have to do is a 5 minute battery change.

Re: Nuclear Power

[WindBourne]

Really? How often do you drive more than 200 miles in a day.

Re: Nuclear Power

[Anonymous Coward]

The answer for the *vast* majority of people: "Rarely, which is why a quick-swap station would be a perfect solution for those scenarios."
The answer for 'super special flowers' who claim electric vehicles are utterly impractical for *anybody* because they can't go 500 miles on a charge, and recharge in 30 seconds: "Every day! That's why I *need* a quick-swap station, but even then a 5-minute swap is too slow! It's got to be 1 second or less, from the moment I pull off the road to the moment I'm back up to highway speeds!"

Re: Nuclear Power

[WindBourne]

lol. and tesla has a 90 second change time. Impressive when you think about it.

Re:Nuclear Power

[K. S. Kyosuke]

No, you don't. It would be too heavy in a car. Even the Topaz series reactors weighing hundreds of kilograms were mostly unshielded. "And uncontrollable meltdown in a fusion car"? Are you on drugs?

Re:Nuclear Power

[K. S. Kyosuke]

That's why having uncontrollable meltdowns would be amazing. I bet the fusion researchers actually have wet dreams about uncontrollable meltdowns because it would mean that they're actually producing more energy than what they put in.

we ask us to get out of wmd on credit cabal bollix

[Anonymous Coward]

start with the ordinary citizen terror tolerance stipend (a 3X6 submersible bunker & anti-aircraft guns for the back of our pickups), being postponed indefinitely again?? cease fire stand down.... the sound of silence followed by more & more ice us, drown us & burn us out incidents (some still calling this 'weather''?) no bomb us more mom us... hugs not thugs... truth+mercy=justice.. hand in hand we stand.. in the moms we trust...

VW has lost trust, needs fines and free software

[jbn-o]

No it's not a very good solution. VW has behaved in a way that requires punishment (and high fines are a perfectly appropriate way to make them change their behavior and send a message to other manufacturers that the US is serious), and every country should be requiring complete corresponding source code under a free software license from VW and any other automaker that lied, sold equipment under false pretense, or dodged environmental regulation. That will help prevent this particular cheating from recurring. No need to get into the "we're not expert/trustworthy enough to do the right thing with regard to environmental regulation" argument as VW's own behavior shows us what happens when proprietors are trusted with that power.

To do less is to send the opposite message -- your country sucks up to businesses, doesn't value human life and safety, and only seeks punishment on a small scale unlikely to threaten the status quo. I know where the US stood on these issues well before this issue came up, I know where the US stands on these issues today, and I'm not surprised that corruption continues apace. We don't need to champion more behavior likely to continue corruption by calling the decision "very good".

The Actual Message:

[Anonymous Coward]

"Hey, we hear you might get fined by the US Government for something north of the value of your entire company. It'd be a real shame if that happened. You know? It'd be really cool if you started producing electric cars in the US. Yeah, that'd be really cool. Too bad about that fine, though."

Re:The Actual Message:

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't realistically fine an international corporation more then they are worth, only slightly less than your country's market is worth to them.

Only electric in test mode

[dfn5]

As it turns out, the new VW electric cars will only be electric in test mode.

Re:Only electric in test mode

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally, a joke. Thank you, this story has too much bitching in it.

Re:Only electric in test mode

[blindseer]

Test engineer 1, "WTF? This electric car sure seems to need a lot of lubricating oil. Where does it go anyway? I don't see it leaking."

Test engineer 2, "I don't get it either. Are you feeling light headed too? I think we need to open a window on the car testing bay, get some fresh air in here."

Re:VW has lost trust, needs fines and free softwar

[Anonymous Coward]

In other news, US authorities require VW to produce cars run on Unicorn Dust, and arrange for Peace on Earth...

Does anyone think that if electric vehicles were economically viable for a large market, VW WOULDN'T be in there making them? Of course they would. So I'm not sure how forcing a company to do something which is not marketable will help anyone...

I disagree...

[rsilvergun]

This is bad because it's not punishment. It's something they would have done anyway if they were following the law and it will still make them enormous profit. While I'm not saying we should bankrupt them, they need to be hurt. Hell, if I did what they did (cheated emissions and got caught) I'd be looking a fines many times the cost of fixing my car up to pass.

VW asks US to resume rare earth mining

[tlambert]

VW asks US to resume rare earth mining ... to supply the batteries for the electric cars which the US has asked VW to provide.

Re:VW asks US to resume rare earth mining

[Smidge204]

The typical electric vehicle battery pack - a lithium technology - uses no rare earth metals.

Don't confuse it with NiMH cells which often do use rare earth metals.
=Smidge=

Re:VW asks US to resume rare earth mining

[Anonymous Coward]

But there are already problems in the areas that are rich in lithium. The people have to hand over their land to some foreign company and then have to work for very low wages on their own land. But they are no longer self sufficient by producing food on land that was once theirs, they have to do unhealthy work in mines. They can buy the food from the new stores that are owned by the companies that took their land. But unfortunately they don't earn enough to buy the same quality of food they once produced. So they have to start working double shifts or have to find a second job to pay for the food they are used to (or just eat bad food and become obese like the rest of the modern world). This is already causing a lot of unrest in those regions, and the unrest in the world will just increase. Also the hatred to the west will increase. Even with electric vehicles we will still depend on oil to produce the cars and electricity.
 
Electric vehicles look like an easy solution to the pollution problem and the dependency on oil rich countries, but it will just be an extra dependency on lithium rich countries and a shift in pollution.
 
Decision takers are planning as if they were creating a 5-year plan in a Communist one party system. It will work because they say so. But the problem is not really the fact that we drive cars that burn fossil fuels. The real problem is that we have created a society where everyone depends on owning and driving a car. And electric car doesn't take away our dependency on cars.
 
The only solution will be taking away that so called freedom of being able to drive to the other side of the continent in your own vehicle whenever you want. This was pure marketing propaganda and is still considered the ultimate freedom. People forget the high costs for such a vehicle and the fact that they have to give up more freedom to work to own the car that provides that so called freedom. The give up so much freedom they can not even drive to the other side of the continent. They could have easily just used any other form of transport that didn't cost them a year worth of salary.

Re:VW asks US to resume rare earth mining

[WindBourne]

give me a break. There are plenty of lithium reserves. In addition, the oceans are loaded with it. For now, china and a few south american nations have been wicked towards their citizens. However, that does not mean that all nations are like this. In fact, Tesla is buying all of their lithium from North America and no issues with pushing ppl off lands.

Re:VW asks US to resume rare earth mining

[blindseer]

That may be true but I suspect the motor uses plenty of rare earth metals. While the GPP may have where those metals end up in the car wrong they do end up in the car somewhere.

An electric motor can certainly be made without rare earth metals but it will be heavier and less efficient. Given the weight and performance gap electric cars already have compared to internal combustion competitors they cannot afford to not use rare earth metals.

I'm sure someone is thinking that electric cars can outperform most any ICE powered car. Well, let me know when electric tractor/trailers are on the market. Diesel engines rule the road, rail, and sea. Until we get batteries that can compete with fuel oil and diesel fuel on weight, volume, and cost we will continue to see electric vehicles as novelties and penis size compensators.

Re:VW asks US to resume rare earth mining

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure someone is thinking that electric cars can outperform most any ICE powered car. Well, let me know when electric tractor/trailers are on the market. Diesel engines rule the road, rail, and sea. Until we get batteries that can compete with fuel oil and diesel fuel on weight, volume, and cost we will continue to see electric vehicles as novelties and penis size compensators.

I forget the name, but there's actually a small pilot project using all electric rail. It's in a quirky little town and they named it after a sandwich shop, of all things. Like global warming, the data isn't conclusive yet and more time needs to be spent on studying it, but it seems to be a promising start. I think a couple other places are trying it more recently too.

Oh yeah, it's call the New York City Subway. Diesel free and seems to be ok, but lets hear both sides of the "controversy".

Re:VW asks US to resume rare earth mining

[Firethorn]

That may be true but I suspect the motor uses plenty of rare earth metals. While the GPP may have where those metals end up in the car wrong they do end up in the car somewhere.

Your suspicions are most likely incorrect, unless you count copper as a rare earth metal. Most serious EV vehicles use AC motors. This is explicitly true for Tesla. No rare earths are required for it's motor.

FTA: Unlike the DC brushless rotor, the induction rotor has no magnets – just stacked steel laminations with buried peripheral conductors that form a “shorted structure.”

It's the hybrids that are using DC motors that need magnets, preferably rare earth ones.

An electric motor can certainly be made without rare earth metals but it will be heavier and less efficient.

Not when you want performance, or go over a certain performance level:

Thus, the induction machine when operated with a smart inverter has an advantage over a DC brushless machine – magnetic and conduction losses can be traded such that efficiency is optimized. This advantage becomes increasingly important as performance is increased. With DC brushless, as machine size grows, the magnetic losses increase proportionately and part load efficiency drops. With induction, as machine size grows, losses do not necessarily grow. Thus, induction drives may be the favored approach where high-performance is desired; peak efficiency will be a little less than with DC brushless, but average efficiency may actually be better.

Diesel engines rule the road, rail, and sea.

Speaking of rails... Have you heard of the "Diesel-electric transmission"? They've been in nearly all locomotives for many decades. We've had diesel electric ships since 1903, and their use is becoming more popular.

The concept is simple enough. Rather than having a mechanical gearbox, you hook your diesel engines up to a generator, then run power lines to electric motors that power the wheels. The diesel provides the energy, the motors provide the power for movement.

Well, let me know when electric tractor/trailers are on the market.

Consider yourself informed.

Until we get batteries that can compete with fuel oil and diesel fuel on weight, volume, and cost we will continue to see electric vehicles as novelties and penis size compensators.

Not really, the weight and energy density of diesel is not necessary for all applications, and batteries have (recently) become cheap enough that electric is finally cheaper than diesel - at least in the applications most suited for them. Tesla is looking to cut costs in half again for their batteries, allowing them to break into the market a step down from the luxury section.

Saying that electric won't be suitable for semi-tractor trailers anytime soon is like saying that jet engines aren't suited for use because they can't reach the moon. Long haul tractor trailers are the most demanding common application I can think of, the most suited for diesel. Long before they go electric, it will be highly practical and economical for 99% of consumer automobiles to be electric. Including trucks such as UPS delivery vehicles.

Re: VW asks US to resume rare earth mining

[WindBourne]

Nope. Only a perm mag DC motor uses rare earth. Most are AC motors and use windings.

Re:VW asks US to resume rare earth mining

[blindseer]

Your examples of diesel/electric systems only prove my point. Those vehicles run on diesel fuel, the electric drive is merely the means to transfer the power from the ICE to the drive shaft.

There are no batteries in the drive train, all the energy to move the vehicle come from the fuel.

Re:VW asks US to resume rare earth mining

[Firethorn]

There are no batteries in the drive train,

They've started to put batteries into the drive train though. Lets them save fuel when there are hills and such.

all the energy to move the vehicle come from the fuel.

That's the thing about electricity - there's fuel being used somewhere. Don't forget that some trains are hybrid - they can use power lines or a third rail when available to avoid having to burn on-board diesel.

Re:VW asks US to resume rare earth mining

[blindseer]

"Don't forget that some trains are hybrid - they can use power lines or a third rail when available to avoid having to burn on-board diesel."

Which means that they can run without electricity, but they won't run without diesel fuel.

If this were a discussion about diesel-electric cars then you might have a point but this is about battery electric vehicles. When those trains run from batteries on board then you can make your point. Until then battery electric vehicles remain a novelty.

Re:VW asks US to resume rare earth mining

[Firethorn]

Which means that they can run without electricity, but they won't run without diesel fuel.

Incorrect. As long as they have an electrified rail available, they could be bone dry and operate just fine. See 'subways', they don't even have diesel engines.

Until then battery electric vehicles remain a novelty.

You're moving the goal-posts here. Earlier you only said electric vehicles, not battery electric.

Some of the largest vehicles on earth, such as the Bagger 288, are electric. Some of the smallest as well. Diesel comes into it's own only when separated from the grid. Now, this is a very valid use case, and I don't disagree that battery prices need to come down.

But battery electric vehicles will be more than a novelty LONG before ships, trains, and long-haul trucks are nearly-exclusively battery electric.

Or do you consider consumer automobiles 'novelty items'? Chop the price of battery packs down to 1/2-1/3rd of where they are now, and electric cars will make perfect sense as commuter vehicles. Cities will love them for the lowered air pollution in their area, etc...

Re:VW asks US to resume rare earth mining

[blindseer]

"You're moving the goal-posts here. Earlier you only said electric vehicles, not battery electric."

I compared the energy density of batteries to diesel fuel and then you reply with diesel electric vehicles. If you read what I wrote in the first place you'd see that I was clearly speaking of battery electric vehicles.

"Incorrect. As long as they have an electrified rail available,"

When they run out of electric rail the train stops. If the electric rail is there the train can still run on diesel if, for example, there is a grid failure.

" See 'subways', they don't even have diesel engines."

Actually they do. The maintenance trains are diesel. I seem to recall a failure of the electric train that runs through the Chunnel, to get the train and passengers out a diesel prime mover was brought in.

"Or do you consider consumer automobiles 'novelty items'? Chop the price of battery packs down to 1/2-1/3rd of where they are now"

While you have engineers bringing down the price of batteries there are other engineers working on improving the ICE. Battery electric vehicles are aiming at a moving target, and one with a massive lead. Any improvement on things like lighter automotive frames, aerodynamic shapes and coatings, energy optimizing electronics, can all be applied to the ICE as well as the BEV.

Let's assume that someone builds a car frame from aluminum so that the ICE car now weighs 1/2 what it did before. A comparable BEV will only see a reduction of 1/4 or so. Those batteries will still be made of lithium, nickel, or whatever, and will not get any lighter. So, barring some leap in battery technology the ICE will win out on price, performance, range, and comfort.

Re:VW has lost trust, needs fines and free softwar

[haruchai]

Newsflash. VW already makes & sells BEVs.

So much bullshit over this, even months later

[Anonymous Coward]

FTFA:

Five months after the emissions scandal broke in the United States, Europe's leading carmaker has yet to come up with a technical fix for almost 600,000 diesel cars, and is facing a growing number of legal claims.

The only modification required is a software update. The engines already have all the required hardware which is how they were able to pass the emissions tests in the first place.

US offer meant to ban VW form fuel-cell electrics!

[Anonymous Coward]

> US authorities have asked the German carmaker Volkswagen to produce electric vehicles ... and to help build a network of charging stations for electric vehicles in the United States.

This racketeering-worded offer to VW it is not about protecting the environment, but simply meant to reinforce the US based (Elon Musk) battery-electric camp versus the japanese fuel-cell electric camp.

Everybody can see that batteries are not sustainable, because the whole Earth would need to be strip-mined into moonscape to harvest enough rare earth metal ores. China already is, pity her population... In contrast, fuel-cells need only 2 troy ounces of platinum each plus a few kilos of commodity industrial metals (mostly stainless steel) for their structure. While Pt is not cheap when measured in money, so little amount is needed it becomes cheap for the planet, as there is no high cost for the natural environment.

That is why the japanese fuel-cell camp is right and will own the future (except Panasonic, who sold their soul to Elon Musk).

Unlikely

[Dirk Becher]

You can be pretty sure that tort law will pretty much bankrupt VW or at least their US branch.

Re:Unlikely

[Anonymous Coward]

Other companies doing similar things (e.g. GM) got away with fines in the order of dozens of millions. Now I agree that the U.S. does not normally treat foreign companies the same way they treat domestic comanies, but three orders of magnitude will be very hard to justify.

there is one already: eGolf

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems most people don't know, but they already make the eGolf (which I have). It would be great if they invested more on this techno. The car drives very nicely (better than any other golf, gti included).

Re:US offer meant to ban VW form fuel-cell electri

[jandjmh]

At the moment there are no hydrogen refueling stations near most of the U.S. population. And when I just checked the California station finder map a significant fraction were "offline." On the other hand, almost everyone who can buy a new car also has electricity at their house. Our Tesla charges overnight at home - with nearly zero extra time taken beyond parking the car. Even if a fuel cell car fills faster, if I have to drive somewhere to fill it the time it takes out of my day is greater.
Tesla's supercharger network is already good, and getting better. Long trips are now pretty painless (as long as you are traveling on major route that has stations)
Perfect? Certainly not. But it is getting better, and so-called destination charging spots are being added even faster than supercharger locations. Tesla made the smart choice to put a 10KW charger onboard every car. So all a destination (hotel, resort, all-day attraction) needs to install is a simple 50A 240V outlet, of a type that is already the de facto standard at RV parks. No expensive charger to buy and maintain for the destination owner. Just a low cost plug that should work virtually forever once installed. It is going to be a lot harder to build out a nationwide network of hydrogen stations.

Clever

[drolli]

Instead of punishing, force them to invest. Maybe for a few years that is a loss for the company, but if played right it could actually help them in the long run. (Since it forces shareholders to accept reduced earnings for some time, which they normally would no be willing to).

Re:Clever

[Anonymous Coward]

VW already invests more in R&D than any other company.

Re:VW has lost trust, needs fines and free softwar

[Christian Smith]

..., and every country should be requiring complete corresponding source code under a free software license from VW and any other automaker that lied, sold equipment under false pretense, or dodged environmental regulation.

Except the "source code" is usually the property of the ECU maker, not the car maker. The car maker provides only data input and tables to the ECU, which then acts accordingly.

EPA Settlements are corrupt

[Kohath]

The EPA of corrupt settlements in legal cases. If crimes were committed, why should VW (or anyone) get away with them by funding leftist feel-good projects?

Here's hoping that the next administration starts "settling" these cases for an apology and a big donation to the NRA. Then maybe people will start paying attention to how corrupt this process is.

Re:EPA Settlements are corrupt

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

That would require a Republican adminstration, which at this point woudl be Trump or Cruze. Fuck that shit. Either Hitler 2.0, or the living embodiment of Nehemiah Scudder.

I wont' accept either of those results.

Re:EPA Settlements are corrupt

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing is, it is probably very hard to prove that VW actually committed a crime. A settlement means guaranteed money and/or good PR results for the American environmental agencies and for VW and clearness for its shareholders. Going to court is a risk for both parties and the EPA will definitely not be able to get anything other than money from it.

Re:EPA Settlements are corrupt

[Anonymous Coward]

That would require a Republican adminstration, which at this point woudl be Trump or Cruze. Fuck that shit. Either Hitler 2.0, or the living embodiment of Nehemiah Scudder.

I wont' accept either of those results.

Why not? Those of us on the right have had to live under your incompetent, petty, American-hating president for the last 7 years. I think you can manage if someone besides an old corrupt crone or a dried-up commie wins.

Besides, that would let you clowns 'speak truth to power' again, instead of constantly explaining away every failure of your man in Washington. Aren't you people happier when you can pretend to be radicals instead of blatantly serving the man?

Re:EPA Settlements are corrupt

[ToddInSF]

LOL, insect troll coward makes a series of phony "right wing" remarks, looking for a response, but not realizing it's 2016 now, and nobody cares what conservatrolls say anymore.

Good luck with your bullshit Jesus/child molestation/pro corrupt cop platform. I'm sure it'll be a hit with your tiny church-going base of drooling bapt-tards.

Re:US offer meant to ban VW form fuel-cell electri

[Anonymous Coward]

At least a battery doesn't constantly leak its expensive fuel all over the place, and it also burns up somewhat less spectacularly in case of a crash.

Nuclear Powered Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

VW will NOT comply. So why not ask for nuclear powered cars. They will not, and above all cannot deliver that!

Ha ha

Do not agree

[Anonymous Coward]

let the U.S inflate the accusations as much as they want, but don't let them wrestle you into something that will benefit them more than you, in a completely disproportionate manner. Fight it out in court and settle the fines, and stick to building what you build best, and operate in the market that is best for you.

Fascism?

[Spudboy2003]

It's this the definition of fascism? Strange how people embrace this so often.

hypocretes

[Anonymous Coward]

yet US canceled Clean Power Plan, pathetic...

Re:US offer meant to ban VW form fuel-cell electri

[WindBourne]

Only an idiot would think that Fuel Cells have a chance.

Re:US offer meant to ban VW form fuel-cell electri

[drinkypoo]

Only an idiot would think that Fuel Cells have a chance.

Well, call me an idiot then. I think they have a chance simply because so much effort is being spent pushing them. EVs are scary to the entrenched energy cartels because you can charge them off-grid.

Re: US offer meant to ban VW form fuel-cell electr

[WindBourne]

There are 19 h2 stations in all of America. In general, each station is over $2m to add, and take 6m to build. Otoh, there are over 12,000 EV charge spots not including any of the RVs, or even residential or business spots. By end of 2016, Tesla should have their supercharger network covering all of America and Europe. So, how will h2 compete?

Crooked little deal at the expense of third party

[rodia]

Making Volkswagen open a production plant in the US that would have normally been built in some other place is not as much of a punishment for VW as it is for that other place. But as long as you can force VW to give you the jobs and the taxes, you know, screw the auto workers and taxpayers in Otherplace, right? If you want to make this a new standard in your legal system, maybe next time somebody is convicted for assault, make the perpetrator pay a fine by mugging someone the judge really doesn't give a shit about. And now go and vote Trump, because this guy also wants more jobs for the US and shits on moral and legal principles, just like you.

Change....nope

[wkwilley2]

What's the point in making electric cars? They still rely on coal power plants in order to charge the damn things.

Even when big oil loses, they win.

In order to make an actual impact, it's going to have to be biodiesel, hydrogen or some other viable fuel alternative that doesn't rely on coal power.

Re:Change....nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. I didn't know that the only way to make electricity was to burn coal... I thought you could get it from *any* source, so long as you could use that source to spin an alternator. Silly me.

Did you kill 60 people when you broke those Laws?

[Truth_Quark]

I'm fine with that too, but given that this isn't victimless there should be criminal prosecutions against individuals as well.

Re: US offer meant to ban VW form fuel-cell electr

[drinkypoo]

So, how will h2 compete?

It will compete just like Supercharger stations did even when there were few of them: in limited markets at first, but growing over time. Mind you, I think hydrogen is stupid, but it still has a chance to "succeed". Remember, it doesn't have to become the only motor fuel to be successful. It just has to make money.

Re:Did you kill 60 people when you broke those Law

[Anonymous Coward]

That study makes no sense at all. It is based entirely on wrong assumptions:
- Cars that have not been shown to cheat emission tests emit less NOx than the affected VW TDis (false)
- The probability of additional NOx causing health damage is independent of concentrations (widely known to be false)

Most importantly: they only look at NOx. The affected vehicles emit far less of all other pollutants than the emissions standards allow. It would only be fair to subtract the number of people who would have died additionally if the cars had emitted the maximum permissible amount of all other pollutants. They would probably have ended up with a large negative number.

If you would apply MIT's findings to lorries, buses and power stations, everyone alive today would have been long dead. It is based on fundamentally flawed assumptions. The software is bad because they cheated; it should not have happened and air quality might have been slightly better otherwise, but let's not pretend any significant actual damage was done. Any additional NOx was a drop in the bucket and many comparable cars manage to produce even more NOx without defeat devices (as far as we now).

Big Conflict

[JimSadler]

This type of justice could cause race riots. VW screws up big time in a very meaningful and harmful way and as a consequence is given a wonderful sales opportunity. Meanwhile a black fellow, walking down the street, is stopped, searched and arrested for carrying a pocket knife and sent o jail or fined a fortune. Our tradition of law in the US is always to punish offenders. But when the offender is a big company everything seems to change. A more usual response would be to disallow any sales of VW products in the US for a decade or so. And making the situation even more complex ordering VW to build and sell a certain number of electric cars in the US is probably a better way to go than traditional thinking would allow. Maybe we need to apply some of this enlightenment in punishments to the little guys and work from the bottom up as doing this amplifies the feeling of injustice that many already have.

Re: Big Conflict

[Anonymous Coward]

A more usual response would be to disallow any sales of VW products in the US for a decade or so.

I doubt the many employees at VW, dealerships and suppliers in the US would be very happy with that. It will also make other foreign investors reconsider their plans to create jobs in the US. The extreme contrast between how American government agencies treat American and foreign corporations is already holding back investment, as is the draconian legal system. I don't think the US need any more of that in the current economy, even if we disregard how unfair and disportionate such a measure would be.

tug-of-war

[billdale]

There are the good guys, and the bad guys, and they are fighting mightily over EVs entering the mainstream market. The Koch Brothers, assisted by their minions, the Koch Suckers, are about to spend $10 million in an effort to suppress EV production and implementation here in the US, since the more EVs on the road, the less profit for the Fossil Fool industry. What has always mystified me is why somebody as obscenely rich as the Kochs would think their lifestyle would be any more enhanced by another billion or three. You would think that they would be afraid of stepping over the line at, some point, with the Justice Department ready to deprive them of not only a bug chunk of that previous cash they love, but a few years in prison for their misdeeds-- and at their ages, with any time behind bars they just might not make it out alive.

reverse that ...

[micahraleigh]

Ask the US gov to make up for systematically targeting and abusing tea party groups.

Ask the US gov to make up for failing to stop the christmas day bomber, the times square bomber, the boston marathon bombers, etc ...

Ask the US gov to make up for all the people who lost their jobs because of the ACA.

If this is the case, they get off for time served.

[Anonymous Coward]

VW bugs and vans were the most fuel efficient vehicles in the USA for the 50-70's when Detroit was churning out 8 cylinder gas guzzlers. I think they have more then made up for any wrong doing when looked at as a whole.

Re: US offer meant to ban VW form fuel-cell electr

[WindBourne]

Zero chance.
The reason why I say that, is that even without Superchargers, there were still many ways to fill up. All of the tesla owners simply charged at home and remained with 100 miles of home.
OTOH, with H2, there are roughly 3 areas in America that have H2. And you can not fill up at home.
And there are a whopping 644 stations throughout the world.
Finally, the real problem is that it costs to replace the fuel cells every 50K miles or so, AND the H2 is like buying $5/gal of gas. IOW, it is actually more expensive than either gas or nat gas powered cars. This is esp. true since I just paid .89 / gal for gas today.

Re:US offer meant to ban VW form fuel-cell electri

[ThatsMyNick]

And only an idiot would think Fuel Cells have no chance ever. I will just wait to pass judgement, thanks.