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Linux Mint Hack Is an Indicator of a Larger Problem (techrepublic.com)
An anonymous reader writes: On February 20th, a hacker working under the handle 'Peace' took control of the website of Linux Mint, a popular Linux distribution derived from Ubuntu (and Debian) targeted toward non-technical users and power users unhappy with modern desktop environments. While these attacks are regrettable, and part of an infrastructure problem rather than a problem with the distribution itself, it increasingly appears that the Linux Mint team is spread too thin when it comes to security. The distribution itself blacklists updates that work perfectly in Ubuntu and Debian, and the graphical utilities don't update the kernel. Because the value added by Linux Mint is in Cinnamon, why do the developers need to distribute a broken version of Ubuntu when the Cinnamon DE could be distributed as an Ubuntu spin?
Wake me up when they hack the Denver mint.
I think it means three things: "Why do people use Mint when Ubuntu is better in every way? Some people think the only answer is 'Cinnamon' . Ubuntu should port that over so they are the awesome and Mint can die"
Your ad here. Ask me how!
and the graphical utilities don't update the kernel. Because the value added by Linux Mint is in Cinnamon, why do the developers need to distribute a broken version of Ubuntu when the Cinnamon DE could be distributed as an Ubuntu spin?
My guess would be that most - or allot - of Mint users are looking for more than just Ubuntu with Cinnamon. If that is all Mint users where looking for, there would not be a KDE version, a XFCE version, or a Mate version. If that is all they wanted, they would download Ubuntu and add the ppas for their desktop of choice. People find value with those "graphical utilities".
The author is confusing what he wants from Mint for what others want.
Actually, Linux Mint's value add was originally (and still is) providing an Ubuntu distribution that includes non-free software and codecs pre-installed and configured right out of the box (e.g. DVD playback, MP3 playback, 3D graphics drivers like then visual binary blob, Flash, JAVA, etc.). Yes, these features can be separately stalled by users in Ubuntu. But for first time or novice users, this could be difficult and Linux Mint took the approach of making sure these features were installed, configured, and working out of the box.
Cinnamon is a separate project to provide an alternative to Gnome3. Linux Mint sponsored it and is the primary user of it. But it's not the only "value add".
That said, Linux Mint did make some weird design decisions. I always thought it would be easier to just create and publish a custom Ubuntu spin that included these features rather than create a whole distribution from scratch.
I'm moving to Arch
Good for you. Arch is not for newbie users as it lacks a tool to perform automated installs, but once it is up and running i'd venture to say is the most reliable, easiest to use distro out there.
Non-technical users should use a Mac, as it simply works.
I wish this was true so I wouldn't have to deal with so many support requests from Mac users.
I think it means three things: "Why do people use Mint when Ubuntu is better in every way? Some people think the only answer is 'Cinnamon' . Ubuntu should port that over so they are the awesome and Mint can die"
I agree with your interpretation. I even (unlike you, probably) kind of agree with the original author's point. I would be pretty happy if the Ubuntu team offered Cinnamon as an alternative of Unity. But of course they never will, because they specifically developed Unity to replace Gnome in the first place, thus creating all this demand for Cinnamon and Linux Mint.
I tried mint a few years ago when I found the default install of Ubuntu desktop unusable. Could I have customized it to the desktop I wanted? Sure. Or, I could try this new distribution that has a DE that is actually intuitive. If Ubuntu shipped with Cinnamon by default I'd go back to Ubuntu. Ubuntu really shot themselves in the foot a few years ago and I got tired of being a beta tester.
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The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Non-technical users should use a Mac, as it simply works.
"Non-technical users should use $WHAT_I_THINK_IS_BEST_FOR_THEM_BECAUSE_I_UNDERSTAND_ALL_USE_CASES as it simply works". Gotcha.
I think it means three things: "Why do people use Mint when Ubuntu is better in every way? Some people think the only answer is 'Cinnamon' . Ubuntu should port that over so they are the awesome and Mint can die"
I agree with your interpretation. I even (unlike you, probably) kind of agree with the original author's point. I would be pretty happy if the Ubuntu team offered Cinnamon as an alternative of Unity. But of course they never will, because they specifically developed Unity to replace Gnome in the first place, thus creating all this demand for Cinnamon and Linux Mint.
and now we're telling the folks at Mint to go fork themselves?
{ducks}
You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
Linux Mint isn't just Ubuntu. They also provide Linux Mint Debian Edition, which is far superior, IMHO.
Non-technical users should use a Mac, as it simply works.
Well, the problem is that the cost to buy (including maintenance) a Mac is a lot more expensive than to buy a PC... $500 may be little to you, but it could be a much higher value to many others...
"Non-technical users should use $WHAT_I_THINK_IS_BEST_FOR_THEM_BECAUSE_I_UNDERSTAND_ALL_USE_CASES as it simply works". Gotcha.
Some of the better IT shops are giving users the choice between Mac and PC. From what I've seen in the field, non-technical users and engineers prefer the Mac. Macs and PCs are pretty much interchangeable these days.
It's what passes for trash talk from anonymous story contributors, a loaded question like 'when will the developers stop beating their wives?' Mint is not just Cinnamon, of course, and not all versions are even based on Ubuntu, 'broken' or otherwise. Mint fans might want to point out that Ubuntu-Mate, by far the best version of Ubuntu (see what I did there?), owes a great deal to Mint's support of the MATE desktop project...
If you don't think they do it well, clone it and roll your own. It's a free OS. Or, if you have a suggestion that's simple and easy to implement, why not talk to the maintainers and politely suggest it, instead of ragging on them in a third party forum?
I am so friggin tired of distro wars, and people criticizing maintainers who provide a service to others for free on third-party forums instead of making actual suggestions. You want to show off how much smarter you are than the people who do this for a living? Screw you.
Please realise. There is no secure way for a non technical user to install new software on a mac. Where you or I use
and the software comes, beginners need an interface like Ubuntu Software Centre or Android Play. Without it they just have to download and install random things from the web. On a Mac if you want to be secure, you have to know how to get checksums off the internet, check them, verify the source, know who writes and distributes what software.
Macs are really only suitable for top level security experts. Certainly not non-technical users.
Top 5 reasons why Arch Linux sucks:
1) Lead arch developer got his computer hacked 3 times. see: https://web.archive.org/web/20120805043450/https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=12192&p=1
2) Unstable. Go check out arch's forum instead of listening to the fanboy to see the enormous amounts of issues.
3) Unprofessional. Arch isn't used in any professional environment for a good reason. Made by amateurs.
4) Community. Pretentious, trendy, ricer, hippie morons.
5) Forum. Full of noob questions (can't help it as majority is ex-ubuntu users)
Well, the problem is that the cost to buy (including maintenance) a Mac is a lot more expensive than to buy a PC.
My 2006 MacBook lasted for eight years. The only reason I retired it so soon is because it had a 32-bit processor and many of the programs I've used stopped upgrading the 32-bit version. The only repair job I had was a replacement fan and a new battery in 2014. Most Macs maintain high resale values because they're better made than many PCs.
The site in question used WordPress, which gets hacked early and often. Being hacked had nothing to do with how many Mint developers there are; it's more a commentary on flaws most php based platforms have.
Linux Mint chooses to blacklist certain applications in line with the project goals; these of course can be overridden at user's choice.
What a pile of FUD, I smell jealousy of Linux Mint's success as unlike Ubuntu the team does listen to end user needs and wants; while Ubuntu instead crams badly designed UI (Unity) down throats that neither meets needs nor was requested by anyone
I use it with Mate since day one.
I'm not a developer but Software architect and Mint Mate just do the job without any cumbersome thing to make it works with a normal stable DE unlike ubuntu.
And The distribution itself [DOESN'T] blacklists updates that work perfectly in Ubuntu and Debian, and the graphical utilities [DO] update the kernel when correctly configured when YRTF !
Ceci n'est pas une Signature !
Right now hardly anyone knows that Ubuntu Mate exists.
In two months (16.04), expect a lot of Mint MATE and vanilla Ubuntu (Unity) users to discover that Ubuntu MATE exists. Once that happens, I expect to see Ubuntu MATE hit #1 on distrowatch. Currently, the lack of an LTS release is the main reason a lot of Mint MATE users haven't swiched to Ubuntu Mate already; that's why Mint is still #1 on distrowatch.
---
Gnome2 for life.
You mean like the Anonymous Coward who says "graphical utilities don't update the kernel"
This person should simply click the Mint update manager on their bar which brings up the graphical Update Manager Window. Then you click "View", and from that drop-down menu select "Linux Kernels". From there you can choose from all of the available kernels for Linux Mint.
I don't know about you, but that is certainly looks fairly graphical to me!
CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
Macs are really only suitable for top level security experts. Certainly not non-technical users.
You obviously haven't spend much time at an Apple Store. I seriously doubt that Grandma is a top level security expert.
They were trying to portray as bad certain packages are by default not allowed, but its because of design decisions. of course that can be overridden...but I don't even get what basis their claim of no kernel updates comes from, of course it does them but doesn't jump kernel versions
My Minis didn't last anywhere near that long. Comparable PCs have outlasted them by a wide margin. Normal PCs just keep on chugging along until you don't know what to do with them any more.
Plus you can upgrade them (PCs) and extend their useful lifespan even further, long after a Mac would be an obsolescence driven doorstop.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
I see your comment and add that I have been using a G4 mac mini up until last month as media center but only because it doesn't like the new router because appart from not booting when connected to the new router it still works fine.
That's the value for me, it works out of the box for all the hardware I've used it on so far. Unlike Ubuntu which has issues of it's own lately for me. Before the hack hit I had Mint installed on an MSI laptop with and Nvidia card and the thing fired up out of the box with no issues. Only thing I had to do was turn off that secure boot garbage in the bios which was easy.
Maybe Mint isn't the ideal distribution for people and maybe it could be done better. Still it's doing things right enough for me to use it and run Steam on it with no issues for all the games that provide native Linux ports. Could Ubuntu do it? Maybe but I hate Unity and Gnome 3. I also don't want one of the side distributions because unlike Mint I feel like they're treated as second class from the main one.
While I understand that the overlords of commerce like to pretend that nothing could ever be wrong with anything even remotely advertising-related, the reality is that Ubuntu foundation did itself some irreparable damage with that incident.
Rule 35 of the internet: "If it can be hacked, it will be". - Charles Stross
Manual process, that's not user friendly - how many non-technical users would know what a "kernel" is, let alone be able to judge what one to install?
Mint is Ubuntu with an additional repository that contains Cinnamon, and a different set of default packages. When I say Mint is Ubuntu with ..., I mean that literally, as in (for Rosa):
"Ubuntu Spin" is the term given to a variant of Ubuntu that's the result of a collaboration between Canonical and an interested community. For example, KUbuntu is a spin with KDE replacing Unity as the desktop.
So...
What the author is saying is given Mint is just Cinnamon + Ubuntu, why distribute this somewhat hacked together kludge, rather than collaborating with Canonical? If the two works together, then the "Mint" side would be able to build on Ubuntu in cooperation with Canonical, leaving "CUbuntu" to have the same advantages as other spins (for example, up to date releases, testing so that changes in one part of Ubuntu do not damage CUbuntu, etc) while still getting a Cinnamon desktop.
That's one solution, another is to get more people and disentangle the project from Ubuntu completely. It depends upon what the Mint team actually want.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
And the author is an ass. Mint includes, among other things, full multimedia support. Ubuntu does not have that. That's why it is very popular. Ubuntu made a choice not to include full multimedia support.
I keep reading this claim, I'm not sure what's being referred to. Ubuntu most certainly does play movies and music out of the box. It seems to have at the very least the same multimedia support that, say, Windows does.
(I just checked, Rhythmbox and "Videos" installed by default on the Ubuntu system I'm using now.)
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Macs and PCs are pretty much interchangeable these days.
Not really. Macs require a much more current IT staff. Unfortunately many IT departments have been force fed the Microsoft dribble for so long that they don't know what real IT looks like. Adding Macs to corporate infrastructure should be done carefully.
It's not about the user or the OS. It's about the infrastructure behind it.
I know you're making a joke, but FWIW both Mac OS X and Windowses 8 through 10 come with app stores now.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Oh for mod points. Amen.
"Non-technical users"? Fuck off. It's an OS that is designed to be used, not endlessly fiddled with. But for some self-appointed gatekeepers, that's somehow become an unbearable eternal-September thing for linux.
They wouldn't replace Unity with Cinnamon in the primary version of Ubuntu, but given they have no problems distributing versions of Ubuntu with KDE, GNOME 3, XFCE, LXDE, and even MATE (the other thing that came out of the Unity sucks movement), I don't see why they wouldn't do a Cinnamon version if there was a community willing to maintain it.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Probably codecs that Mint has but Ubuntu doesn't include by default for legal reasons
I don't see why it couldn't be moved to Ubuntu.
The only reason reason why not would be if it takes away developer or test time and resources from their other, higher priority offerings. It would be an alternative, and Ubuntu does already offer alternatives. Unity or not, as long as the only work they had to do was minimal, offering the choice seems to not harm Ubuntu at all.
Look into Slackware
I support a non-profit with about 150 users. About 75% of these are Macs. I've been in IT since the late 90 and here is what I've seen:
- Apple HW, in general, is more prone to errors than PC HW.
- Microsoft SW, in general, is more prone to errors than Apple SW.
I will take a Mac any day. Why? As an IT guy, it has a proper command line environment. Don't even mention PowerShell. I tried it and it feels awkward compared to BASH, Perl, and Python, which are the three I'm comfy with.
Apple controls the HW and SW stack, and arguably is more stable. As a former UNIX admin, I prefer anything POSIX- or UNIX-like over alternatives.
I think it means three things: "Why do people use Mint when Ubuntu is better in every way? Some people think the only answer is 'Cinnamon' . Ubuntu should port that over so they are the awesome and Mint can die"
I agree with your interpretation. I even (unlike you, probably) kind of agree with the original author's point. I would be pretty happy if the Ubuntu team offered Cinnamon as an alternative of Unity. But of course they never will, because they specifically developed Unity to replace Gnome in the first place, thus creating all this demand for Cinnamon and Linux Mint.
There are a variety of different Ubuntu 'flavors', which is basically Ubuntu+Alternate DE. So why couldn't Linux Mint be like that rather than a much larger project that's harder to maintain?
Do you actually believe that PCs are made like crap compared to Macs when they both use the same parts?
The Dell, HP and Lenovo laptops that are issued to non-technical workers in a corporate environment are typically crap. A comparable Mac laptop is better engineered and last longer. My company recently gave me a $3,000 Dell laptop as a desktop replacement, which is much better engineered than any Mac Pro laptop that I ever used.
He's still using it as his primary computer.
My nine-years-old gaming system is still using the original AMD 690 motherboard and DDR2 memory, second processor (dual core to quad core), and fourth OS (Windows Vista to Windows 10). Long overdue for an upgrade. I could get an AMD 970 motherboard and DDR3 memory to extend its useful. I'm waiting to see how AMD Zen plays out this year. You typically don't buy Macs to play high-end games on.
What is that, 14 years or so? Didn't even need to replace any fans.
I once opened up a ten-year-old Windows 98 system at a job, and found a softball-sized dust ball underneath the fan intake.
Encrypted DVDs don't play out of the box on Ubuntu, you have to manually install libdvd-pkg. Which admittedly isn't hard, but it is an extra step. And there may well be other codecs they don't support I'm not aware of.
I'm using Windows 10, but I'll use whatever is in front of me if it does the job. I gave my father my Mac mini when it was no longer fast enough for me, and he's required virtually no tech support in the years since, other than doing a fresh install of Mavericks for him.
What I'd like is to have OSX on my parts-built PC without doing a Hackintosh. Apple should know by now that opening up the OS to other hardware would mean making even more off the App Store.
My only caveat for friends who look at buying Mac is to never, ever buy first generation hardware. Wait six months. There's always something wrong with the first generation of the latest "hot and sexy" out of Apple. But they figure it out.
I like the subjects in comments, douche nozzle.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
I don't know what to do at this point.
I do. Wipe your i-don-wanna can't-do-it tears in your fucking sleeve, pick yourself up out of your self-pity, tie your shoes like a big boy and get to work figuring things out, working hard and making things better like the rest of us.
Honestly. I've had it with you people. You want a nice little machine to fellate you? Ask Redmond or Cupertino. You want to build your own hot rod? Be a man and hit the books, FFS.
Macs require a much more current IT staff.
A tech manager who been with the company for 15+ years recently threw a fit. He was trying to replace the hard drive in a new Dell laptop. There was no slot for the 2.5" hard drive he wanted to install. He took the whole laptop apart and couldn't find the hard drive. Some of the techs pointed out a card on the logic board that was the new hard drive standard. He screamed that the card was the wireless card, and got madder when they pointed to the wireless card with the antenna connections. The laptop remains on the back shelf because he can't fix it with a standard 2.5" hard drive.
If the IT department is not current, it's a management problem and not a technology problem.
Bless tech support, of course. But you can't fix stupid. I am working with someone who wants a new win install, but does not know how to boot from CD.
Apple should know by now that opening up the OS to other hardware would mean making even more off the App Store.
Apple tried licensing to third-party hardware makers and saw their hardware sales decline as the cheaper Macs became popular. That was the first thing Steve Jobs killed off when he came back to Apple.
It's in "Update Manager", "View", "Linux Kernels".
Also allows to delete kernels although that is slow, and must be done one by one.
It has to be said, although updates to the kernel are never automatic. Thus pproximately no one does them I'd say.
In fact, with straight Ubuntu I had to do the apt-get get dist-upgrade described in the story to update the kernel (which I did very rarely) and I did not bother with graphical tools. Now there's a likable graphical tool for updates, so instead of the graphical stuff disabled or not present I get notified for every software non-kernel update that comes up.
I don't know about security updates held up, and I don't use Cinnamon (can't buy an Intel graphics card to run a desktop). This I believe is where's most of the hackery due to e.g. GTK3 upstream constantly trying to ruin the game for devs that are not building UIs that look like a cross of Mac OS and Windows 8.
The article seems fairly preposterous. For me the Mate and Xfce editions are where it's at and yes the default themes etc. are a good reason, along with cross-DE tools. Not gonna using and pushing some hastily thrown together desktop with e.g. a black task bar on top rather than a gray task bar on bottom, ugly icons and wallpapers and so on.
sudo apt-get install cinnamon
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
That was two decades before the App Store came into being. The slice they take on that would make up for the hardware sales now easily.
Windows 10 will pay for itself out of its own App Store and MS knows it.
Well they also have a debian edition and there was some discussion a while ago, no idea if it is still happening, of shifting their base from Ubuntu to debian.
You can get 4GB DDR2 sticks of memory from ebay for real cheap (a pair of them). They only run on AMD deskops.
5) Forum. Full of noob questions
And you call them pretentious?
You want a nice little machine to fellate you?
Apparently I've been buying the wrong computers. Tell me more about these nice little machines.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." Col. Jeff Cooper
That's why they do it. The official line is "Don't replace the kernel unless you have a reason to."
Kernels update automatically as part of the graphical process. The kernel replacement procedure above is to change kernel versions. I've currently go 3.16.0-38 installed. As long as I don't do anything, any updates to 3.16.0-38 will automatically be installed.
If I want a newer version of the kernel I can bring up the kernel upgrade dialog mentioned above and scroll down through all the available kernels. I note that 3.19.0-33 has a check mark in the "recommended" column. Versions up to 4.2.0-30 are in the list, but only certain ones have the "recommended" status.
Seems user-friendly enough to me. Enough detail to help someone who wants to upgrade, hidden enough to discourage someone who really shouldn't, and automatic enough to keep the current version safely up to date.
Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
For the majority, just 'ubuntu-restricted-extras' will get you started but yeah, you'll need to do extra work for some DVDs and BluRay discs. All of them can be found by the name of the thing you want to play (blueray) and your OS (Lubuntu) and what the hell you want to do (play). 'play bluray lubuntu' seems to work just fine.
For the packages specific to your flavor, change Ubuntu to Lubuntu or Kubuntu or whatever official flavor you use. (Dunno about others.)
Hmm... For DVD it is: /usr/share/doc/libdvdread4/install-css.sh
sudo
At least that's what's in bash_history from a few days ago.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Windows 10 will pay for itself out of its own App Store and MS knows it.
I ignore the App Stores on both Mac and Windows. Neither company are making extra money from me by having an app store.
Linux Mint Cinnamon was a bubble waiting to burst. Bursting it did last week in an oblique way. If you want Cinnamon, install it under Debian or Ubuntu.
You can get 4GB DDR2 sticks of memory from ebay for real cheap (a pair of them). They only run on AMD deskops.
Do I get more DDR2 memory for a nine-year-old AMD 690 motherboard that limits my quad-core processor to 800MHz and maxes out at 16GB RAM. Or do I buy a brand new AMD 970 motherboard that runs my quad-core processor at 1600Mhz, maxes out to 64GB, and upgrade to an eight-core processor at later date. Decisions, decisions, decisions.
Non-technical users should use a Mac, as it simply works.
Since I use a mac, I really really wish that were true... but it's not.
Well, the problem is that the cost to buy (including maintenance) a Mac is a lot more expensive than to buy a PC... $500 may be little to you, but it could be a much higher value to many others...
Yes... but no. The purchase cost of a computer really is the least important cost. If it is frustrating to use and wastes your time, saving a few hundred dollars on purchase was a poor bargain.
Depends on what you want to do, of course. Either option has advantages for some things. Windows machines do have some bargain basement units... but you may have to make up that cost in problems. Or you may not. Depends on what you need it for.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
Xfce has stagnated.
Great! I'd rather have something that goes nowhere at all than something that goes downhill. Software that improves itself while avoiding the eventual downhill part is extremely hard to come by, which is backed up by all the examples you posted. Putting a bunch of developers on a project yet managing to make it worse is just a waste of human resources.
A friend uses Samba on his Linux Mint machine to read video on the set-top box, which presumably runs linux.
The nice part is he set it up by himself! likely by right-clicking the directory. Formerly known as the guy whom every body wouldn't dare touch his Windows XP PC full of god knows what spyware and inscrutable cruft.
I've not tried it, but I can't imagine it would avoid the same problems. The issue isn't Ubuntu, it's that a third party controls, directly, 90% of the software that makes up a Mint distribution.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
While I'm not sure that every *buntu "distro" needs to actually be a discrete distro, we're in this mess to begin with because DEs just love to shoot themselves in the foot. KDE 4 (at least they've improved somewhat), GNOME 3, Unity, you name it.
did i read that right? if that writer just called mint "broken ubuntu" I want to buy him a beer then slap him upside the head, as that is damn comical.
You also read Slashdot, and probably get a lot of apps from GitHub, like I do.
But there are tons of people who like the convenience of app stores.
That's a problem well beyond being current. His problem is his unwillingness to get current when it wouldn't take a whole hour on the net to learn what he needs to know. It seems he may even have somehow taken it personally that some new tech came along and made him not current.
Yup, and even if you go through and set up the settings that *can* be turned off, the next patch turns them right back on again by default.
It has also changed my default apps like Notepad++ back to the MS equivalents after a patch too.
I do like some of the features of it, like on my tablet I can switch between a tablet UI and a full windows desktop for mouse and keyboard usage cleanly (much better than the nasty windows 8), but damn if the intrusiveness isn't a major downside.
Top 5 reasons why Arch Linux sucks:
1) Lead arch developer got his computer hacked 3 times. see: https://web.archive.org/web/20... 2) Unstable. Go check out arch's forum instead of listening to the fanboy to see the enormous amounts of issues. 3) Unprofessional. Arch isn't used in any professional environment for a good reason. Made by amateurs. 4) Community. Pretentious, trendy, ricer, hippie morons. 5) Forum. Full of noob questions (can't help it as majority is ex-ubuntu users)
Top 5 reasons why Arch Linux sucks
1) That was 2005. Cut the guy some slack, Arch wasn't even really a "thing" yet. Show us a recent breach?
2) Unstable? Citation please? Other than "go read the forum"...
3) Unprofessional? See above. It seems you missed the whole point of a rolling-release distro geared for developers. Nobody in their right mind would replace RHEL with Arch and it was never meant to! That is not to say professionals do not use arch. You tried to hard to make this a black-and-white debate.
4) Now you've totally lost it. Calling Arch users "trendy" is just stupid. We are like 1% of the Linux user base and most of us are into esoteric stuff.
5) Show me a distro who's forum not full of noob questions. That's pretty much what they exist for.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have backups to corrupt.
I'm running mate on debian.
So the point is why a desktop environment needs its own distro, rather than polishing debian/ubuntu upstream.
But isn't Ubuntu just a derivative of Debian? They probably use 80%+ pure Debian in their releases so you could argue why don't they just partner with Debian instead of rolling their own.
I also could be biased though as Mint is my distro of choice. I prefer its interface and how it works to every other distro I have used. As for the comments in the article it feels to me more that he has an axe to grind because he doesn't agree with how mint is structured. He talks about why not partner with cannonical and become a Cbuntu. But if they did that they stop be able to brand differentiate and will essentially disappear in short order. Longer term I expect that mint will start to role its own packages as it gets more and more popular.
The other thing is that mint and ubuntu have different goals and design principals. The user interface of mint is extremely stable. I run one machine with mint 13 on it and one with the latest shiny on it. You can move from one to another with almost no change to work flow.
Finally I question his other assertion that because of blacklisting packages or not upgrading kernels in place the machine is inherently more prone to security issues. The whole concept of the LTS releases of ubuntu is that they receive long term updates for security. I doubt very much that there will be a blacklisted package upgrade in mint which has security implications. That is the sort of package upgrade that they would make work. There is no question that you may not be running the latest version of every piece of software but that isn't unique to mint. If you run an LTS version of Ubuntu you won't be running the latest versions of the same software.
I don't know what to do at this point. Switching to FreeBSD is looking like the most likely option. It still suffers from some of the same problems as Linux distros do, due to it using a lot of open source software, too. But at least it will minimize the problems by FreeBSD itself being of an extraordinarily high quality, and it using better alternatives (like Clang and LLVM instead of GCC) where possible.
I can install and use Clang and LLVM under Linux as well. Interesting troll though.
There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
I think it means three things: "Why do people use Mint when Ubuntu is better in every way? Some people think the only answer is 'Cinnamon' . Ubuntu should port that over so they are the awesome and Mint can die"
I use Fedora which IMHO is better. Now let the battle lines be drawn and I will get the popcorn \{^,^)/
There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
Thanks for pointing that out, hadn't heard of the project. And after spending some time on the site, it looks like you may be right. This may be the distro that fixes the damage from the UI wars. Going to try it in a VM and throw a few bucks in the tip jar just because they seem to have their heads screwed on straight.
Write your own and open source it
Exactly what is wrong with opensource right now. So much crap. Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's not crap. Please, please. Don't just start your own code unless you know what you're doing.
I didn't like Gnome 3 or Unity at all, KDE was ok, but annoyed me in small ways that eventually caused me to switch (granted that was years ago, might be better now), while XFCE was ok. When I tried Cinnamon though, I loved it.
Cinnamon (2.6.13) is available in Ubuntu universe repositories. For me, apt-get wants to install 88 additional packages when installing that meta package.
http://packages.ubuntu.com/wil...
I haven't tried to use it so I have no idea if works well.
[...] probably get a lot of apps from GitHub [...]
Nope.
Better than what came to my mind first.... C....untu....
What the author is saying is given Mint is just Cinnamon + Ubuntu, why distribute this somewhat hacked together kludge, rather than collaborating with Canonical?
I don't get how that's a hacked together kludge. Ubuntu + repo + default packages seems like it's using the package system exactly the way it's supposed to be. I mean, every person I know running linux adds extra repos, and switches out the default packages at some point. This doesn't sound like a kludge so much as a slightly differently configured base install. Whether that's a significant enough difference to merit a new distro name might be a reasonable question, but it doesn't sound very kludgey.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
There are many things Mint does that Buntu does not. For example, the software centre is much better and comes with important software such as Steam. Buntu, last time I checked, blacklisted Steam because they probably view them as a competitor. Furthermore, I'm glad they hold back on some of Ubuntu updates until they're tested more.
Re the comment on kernel updates, it could hardly be easier in Mint. Open the update manager where the regular updates are listed. Select "View" from the Menu bar, then select "Kernels" which opens up a list of all the kernels.
I really liked Windowmaker. At one moment I went to XFCE due to driver issues, What I liked is that the only thing it did was out things on my desktop. It did not try to do anything else.
Now we have a booty system that wants to do everything, running a kernel that trees to do everything, launching a desktop that tries to do everything with a browser that wants to do everything.
One of the reasons I started with Linux, because I liked how everything was separated (Last Windows version was Windows 95 without IE) and now we have this mess.
I like that I have 25 different programs and that each program can be replaced with something I like for reason only I know and only I need to know.
At this moment I run KDE, GNOME and XFCE programs at the same time, because sometimes I like one more than the other for any random reason.
Mmmm. Perhaps I should look back into Windowmaker as new drivers are out since a few years.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Anon really hates Mint.
Mark Shuttleworth, is that you?
So the point is why a desktop environment needs its own distro, rather than polishing debian/ubuntu upstream.
Mint isn't a single desktop distro, quite the reverse - the Ubuntu-based edition is available in MATE, Cinnamon, Xfce and KDE versions, and the Debian-based version in Cinnamon or MATE. It exists for much the same reason as any other distribution - the developers wanted to do something different to what was already out there, and their changes weren't limited to the DE (before Gnome 3 and Unity happened, Mint ran Gnome 2 like Ubuntu, but still had its own character).
They already do ship cinnamon packages apparently. But here we're essentially talking about a "You install the operating system and it comes with everything set up more or less how Mint would do it" type experience, hence the talk of a Cinnamon Ubuntu spin.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Sure, that would be another option. That said, Ubuntu has nailed the "Install it and it just works" aspect of distributions in a way virtually nobody else has, and they're already set up and have a proven track record in the distribution spins ("our distribution with these modifications to create a different user experience") department. So if it were up to me, and partnering was the only option on the table I'd pick Canonical over Debian.
As far as security goes, I mostly agree in that I don't think Ubuntu/Canonical and its integration would be the principle problem with security holes. But the team doesn't appear to have a security focus and probably doesn't have the expertise required to have that focus. It's too small a group, and probably needs the (appropriate) people posting enthusiastically about it to start involving themselves in its development. Otherwise it's destined to become a Ron Paul of operating systems, loved enthusiastically by those who are attached to it, but too small to actually make a difference.
I'm a Mint user myself, but after 20 years or so of using GNU/Linux, Slackware, RedHat (pre-RHEL), RHEL/CentOS, Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu, and now Mint, I've learned not to attach myself emotionally to any particular system. Originally I thought that sharing repositories with Ubuntu was a great thing given Ubuntu is a great operating system marred only by a relatively poor UI, but I'm not as inclined to agree right now.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
There's a world of difference between adding a repo to add some extra applications, and distributing an operating system where the majority of core components are coming in via a repo you don't have control over. That's why I think the word kludge is appropriate here.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
His problem is his unwillingness to get current when it wouldn't take a whole hour on the net to learn what he needs to know.
His problem is typical of full-time employees with many years at a company. They stop learning, become comfortable and panic at the slightest hint of change. I had two friends with software engineering degrees who fell into this trap, getting great jobs out of college and getting laid off six years later in the dot com bust, unable to find a job with obsolete skills, and still working as drug store clerks years later.
You want a nice little machine to fellate you?
Apparently I've been buying the wrong computers. Tell me more about these nice little machines.
Well, it's generally illegal (and socially frowned upon) to outright purchase them. However, you can request one. Random expenditures (patterned fabric, very small bits of precision forged metal, and colorful plants) and dialog are usually requirements, and their firmware is generally considered to be difficult to understand and changes frequently with minimal documentation. If you manage to acquire one in exclusivity, upgrading is incredibly expensive.
If the entire point is to make it easy for end users, then yeah, it's worth it for them to have a separate .ISO that has everything configured from the get go, rather than say "You want a user friendly version of Ubuntu with a traditional desktop? Sure, just download the ISO, install it, and now follow the following list of instructions. 1. Log in. 2. Go to the Ubuntu logo, click on it, and wait for the menu to appear. Now type "Terminal" in the search box and press return. Now select the Terminal icon. Now, in the terminal type 'sudo apt-get...'"...
The aim here is to make it simple for end users. A simple alternative ISO isn't going to be hard to make. It's not as if the ISO will need to be maintained after making it, beyond making new versions for each major Ubuntu release.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Many modern desktops require 3D.
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
Case in point: Microsoft Windows UI, which peaked at Windows 7 and is showing no signs of anything as good as stagnating since.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
The App Store is a relatively small part of Apple's profits. Despite their focus as a company, they make most of their money selling hardware.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
That's two problems in one. Nobody is current. I don't care how much time you dedicate to learning the new thing, there's another new thing out there you haven't learned yet. The difference is a willingness to learn when needed.
Some people in the field lack that willingness. Then, too, far too many HR departments think the flavor of the day is a checklist for employability. The guy who has all of today's checklist but isn't willing to learn is a much worse choice than the guy who's resume reads like yesterday's news but he has a willingness and ability to get up to speed with whatever a new employer might happen to actually be using. Especially if he is willing to consider a new thing for a new project.
Do you always base your product selection on the personality of the owner of the company? That's like the last thing I look at, particularly if I never meet or interact with that person.
Thanks for the information, I might give LMDE another try.
You forgot about the "power users unhappy with modern desktop environments"
I guess I shouldn't be using LMDE or OpenBox.
left at the release 12 when clem got a) very political about Palestine b) very commercially focussed. c) obsessed by cinnamon when actually KDE was the most stable and popular spin oh I went to manjaro coz it has a boss i3 spin. https://manjaro.github.io/Manj...
Then, too, far too many HR departments think the flavor of the day is a checklist for employability.
The only time I run into the HR checklist is for a job is the Red Hat GUI thing. I've got plenty of command line experience in Linux, but I generally use a minimalist window manager for terminal and web browser windows. I'm willing to learn the Red Hat GUI thing. Since none of my Linux experience matches the Red Hat GUI thing on the checklist, the recruiter hangs up on me.
It is fairly common. You're fortunate to have only seen it once.
Yes, Arch Linux is unstable. I used Arch Linux for a while and I absolutely loved what they were doing with it, right up until a series of updates that occurred which broke the system to such a degree that I ran for the hills. These updates were known to cause serious issues, and if you were following their newsreel and reading everything they posted you could have avoid having your system hosed, but otherwise you fired off the bog-standard update command your system was FUCKED.
And they deprecated their installer around the same time, claiming it wasn't maintainable and not worth the time.
What a bunch of buffoons.
You're one user out of millions though. They wouldn't have rolled it out for free if they didn't know it would be profitable and you know it.
Oblivion Awaits
I thought the original intent of Linux Mint was to include non open source software like flash and codecs so the user didn't have to mess with finding/adding repositories and things like that.
The bit about Gnome 3 was spot on though.
Not sure where I said PCs are made like crap compared to Macs??? I simply said Macs products are very expensive compared to PCs, and that is the issue for many people. The GP suggested to switch from PC to Mac, but I don't believe it is a good solution.
If you are seeing and understanding the issue from the point I stated, you will understand why QUALITY is IRRELEVANT and is NOT a concerned when one is buying a product. Also per your statement, it means that buyers should put their trust on the brand when they spend more than they can afford on the brand's products. Should it really be the way to go in current American consumer culture?
Seriously, why do (American) people think that those who can't afford should still spend more than they can afford anyway because they believe (or hope) that the money will be well worthwhile in a long run. Think about it... For example, a person can afford only $200 right now. A PC (3-5 years lifetime product) costs $200 and a Mac (10-12 years lifetime product) costs $500. What make you think that the person would buy a Mac? In theory, yes Mac would be worth more for money (per your statement), but that has NOTHING to do with AFFORDABILITY.
It is fairly common. You're fortunate to have only seen it once.
I've been through the Red Hat GUI Thing about a half-dozen times. I can't tell you how many times I went through a checklist with a thick-accented Indian recruiter, which I always answer "yes" until he asks me again for that one question near the end that requires a "no" answer. I've actually gotten a few interviews that way.
I misinterpreted, my bad.
Yes, it's all too common. In some industries it's much worse.
The really sad part with the GUI thing is that often when there's a network issue, the best you can get is a serial console, so the command line is actually much more important. If you can see the GUI, the command line is still just a click away.
Another common case is where they want X years of Java. They don't care if you have X years of C, X years of Python, and X-1 years of Java, it didn't meet the criterion. It's also funny when they demand C++ and it turns out all of their code is in C.
It's also funny when they demand C++ and it turns out all of their code is in C.
They probably meant C/C++. ;)
If you are seeing and understanding the issue from the point I stated, you will understand why QUALITY is IRRELEVANT and is NOT a concerned when one is buying a product.
When I worked for Dell on PC refresh projects, the number one request from the programmers was that they wanted a Mac instead of a Dell. Needless to say, that drove the Dell project manager up the wall. The Fortune 500 company spent a million bucks on Dells, but the programmers wanted Macs. Go figure.
For example, a person can afford only $200 right now. A PC (3-5 years lifetime product) costs $200 and a Mac (10-12 years lifetime product) costs $500.
If a person has $200, they're not going to buy a brand new Mac because doesn't Apple doesn't compete at that price point. If you do an apple to apple comparison (pun intended), most Macs are price competitive with similar hardware from other vendors. If someone wants to buy a used Mac, OWC has them for $350+.
http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/Apple_Systems/Used/Macs_and_Tablets?_ga=1.141130353.2131978726.1453008213
In theory, yes Mac would be worth more for money (per your statement), but that has NOTHING to do with AFFORDABILITY.
I had $1,300 to buy a 2006 MacBook because I COULD AFFORD IT. Yes, I did paid the $200 premium for a black MacBook because it was cooler than white. When I took it into the Apple Store for repair in 2012, every employee stopped by to look at it because very few of them have ever seen a legendary black MacBook. Some even wept because they never got one at the time. Ten years later, thanks to this thread, I'm dusting it off, ordering a new battery and a tool kit to fix the fan, and installing Mac OS X Snow Leopard (the finest version of the OS ever). I just might get another ten years out of it.
Nah, it's not that I'm a pussy, it's that an operating system which breaks horribly to such a degree has no value to someone using their computer for work.
Listen to Joe's Garage, Zappa explains it all. Di-chromium in serious leather