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Raspberry Pi 3 Brings Wi-Fi and Bluetooth (i-programmer.info)
mikejuk writes: Details of the next in the family of the successful Raspberry Pi family have become available as part of FCC testing documents. The Pi 3 finally includes WiFi and Bluetooth/LE. Comparing the board with the Pi 2 it is clear that most of the electronics has stayed the same. A Raspberry Pi with built in WiFi and Bluetooth puts it directly in competition with the new Linux based Arduinos, Intel's Edison and its derivatives, and with the ESP8266 — a very low cost (about $2) but not well known WiFi board. And of course, it will be in competition with its own stablemates. If the Pi 3 is only a few dollars more than the Pi 2 then it will be the obvious first choice. This would effectively make the Pi Zero, at $5 with no networking, king of the low end and the Pi 3 the choice at the other end of the spectrum. Let's hope they make more than one or two before the launch because the $5 Pi Zero is still out of stock most places three months after being announced and it is annoying a lot of potential users.
I'd rather see faster IO than built-in wireless. I can easily add a dongle for wifi or bluetooth if I want it, but the current architectural constraints mean the Pi's not a great board for a low-end, low-power file server.
Can they instead get direct communication to the ethernet port, not that shitty solution over USB?
It's not just the ethernet-port that is over USB, but it and all four of the USB-ports are all connected to a single, internal hub, meaning they all share the 480Mbps bandwidth. That's kind of crappy, would be nice to have it more like e.g. my Orange Pi PC is, ie. it has 3 USB-ports that are all fully capable of the 480Mbps -- no internal hub, whatsoever, and no sharing of bandwidth -- and the ethernet-interface is actually connected directly to the SoC, too. Though, unlike you, I would definitely want built-in WiFi and I heartily welcome that in RPi3.
As an aside, I wonder if RPi3 will finally bring HEVC-support with it. It's one of those things I care a lot about.
No. Most people don't give a shit about that for what they are using this for. The nice thing about the ecosysytem today is that if you have a list of must-have features, you can find something that works for you. Complaining because you want high-end performance and networking in what is and has always been a low end part is just retarded. Pick the right part for your application and if it costs a few dollars extra there is a good reason for it.
The Pi is a general-purpose device that's pretty cheap and therefore accessible to a lot of people willing to do reasonably simple things.
Considering what you get for your money it's actually pretty good.
If you use it for one thing at a time it's pretty decent. And it's a great platform to learn embedded solutions on. Also realize that a lot of embedded devices out there are a lot more constrained than what the Pi is.
If you want something cheaper you can go for the Atmega, but then you lack a lot of the features offered by a real OS.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Well, the only thing I miss in the Pi2 is an audio in connector, not the end of the world though since I can use an USB sound card instead.
What I have used it for so far is to set up an APRS digipeater/igate and as a controller for a radio repeater with subtone control.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Then list them. Otherwise we don't know about them. As soon as I have looked into the alternatives I have realized that everyone of them have some shortcoming.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Yep, you got it. For those of us with a life who only have time to learn details of one device, it's the best all-purpose deal going. Best at any one thing? Nope, but pretty good at a lot of things and has very broad support. Don't like it? Don't use it. I'm not trashing 'duinos, they just aren't for me right now.
I have no idea why idiots keep buying them considering there's better options for everyone by everyone in the same price bracket
This argument always breaks down when the person making it is asked to provide actual alternatives.
So let's see if it still holds true. Pick one of each Raspberry Pi model and then show me your better faster cheaper alternative. Instant loss of points if the device fails to run Linux out of the box or has a shipping cost higher than the device itself given that the current RPi series is available from any remotely decent cornershop electronics store.
Good luck finding the Zero board anywhere, let alone your local electronics store.
Indeed. Hardware designed by semi-competents. It is really pathetic that this abomination with its missing documentation, no real sound, unreliable networking, no SATA, etc. is such a success, when far better designs are available at comparable prices.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Now if only the Orange Pi had software that used its four procesors and was stable
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
> About the only thing you could criticize in the current line up of Raspberry Pi single board computers is the fact that you have to add a WiFi or Bluetooth dongle
I don't give a rats ass about WiFi.
I just want quadcore cpu + 4 GB RAM onboard < $50. I've seen devices north of $125 but nothing for a cheap "cluster" with 4GB RAM.
What's the point of having a quadcore when you only have 1 GB RAM -- which is split amongst each core. That is only 255 MB / core; not useful for my applications.
* https://www.raspberrypi.org/he...
Because they're cheap and have decent performance for their cheapness. I don't actually give a flying crap about I/O speed. About the only thing I wish it had was a variant with two of those USB-Ethernet dongles built in, wifi built in, and retaining at least a couple USB ports. If I need multiple Ethernet ports, I've been attaching dongles anyhow, so why not build them in? The benefit is the device is that it is dirt cheap. I have a number of them in service in manufacturing acting as web servers for performing specific tasks (mostly for flashing microcontrollers and loading configurations on boards that cost 3-50 times as much). Sure, I could put a cheap desktop in there, but we're talking a massive increase in cost and physical size (I do use one of these where I/O would be a problem with a RasPi). It's all about using the right tool for the job...
no there are a bunch of suckalicious unsupported "rasberry pi killers". Topping the list is the Orange Pi, which has great specs and non working software.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
My experience has not led me to that conclusion.
I have three of them. all bought at different times, using different drive cards. B+ units. One was set up as a console-centric machine, no desktop. One with a desktop, but it ended up being used as a console machine as well. The other was set up as a desktop, and used that way (my SO plays with it from time to time.)
Her Pi, which isn't powered up all that often, is still working.
The others, which were in always-on service, are not.
Both worked for several months, and then the drive cards failed (I think.) If the Pis are powered down and up, you can see some activity on the drive LED for about three seconds, then it stops, and nothing goes any further. Both machines are backed up on my desktop, and I may see if they'll come up with new cards, but I'm not really motivated because it's just so disappointing that they both failed.
That's not all. One was set up to drive some hardware on one of my aquariums. I wanted to see if I could set up timers for aeration and so forth. I got that all going, very useful because when I feed them, I want the aeration off so the food isn't churned by the motion on the surface of the water. So once a day I would log in via console and turn off the aeration, and then feed them, then the aeration would automatically come back on 15 minutes later without further action from me. In addition, various other things got switched on and off. Lighting, etc. It seemed like a great use for a Pi. I used a Python script that ran from cron every few minutes. Nothing fancy.
But.
About half the time I tried to log in to that Pi, there would be no network connection, and I'd have to try over and over again to get it to work. Eventually it would. If I left it connected with a shell window open here on my desktop, I would go to do something and find the shell not connected. Nothing else on my network drops connections. Either the Pi has a lousy networking interface, or the Pi networking software is teh suck. Either way, it's annoying and doesn't lead me to "ooo, a new pi, lemme try that out!" I tried switching network cables and ports on the main network switch here - didn't help.
The whole business with the failure and subsequent refusal to boot... that's really off-putting.
My feeling is that for a small machine, it's just not reliable enough. Better to spend a little, put a small computer with an actual drive and a real networking interface in place, and have something that will can stay in service for more than a couple of months.
It's anecdotal -- just my experience, not in any way a blanket condemnation in the sense of advice to others -- I'd be interested in input from those who have Pi units in always-on service. Drive reliability? Networking reliability?
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Most users don't need the I/O headers either. Many people don't need the wired Ethernet. The Raspberry Pi is a compromise device, but it's a pretty good compromise. And the high volume keeps the price down more than saving on any single piece of hardware.
The primary design goal of the Raspberry Pi is still a cheap general purpose computer people can use for learning and education. That's why it has an HDMI port, and that's why Bluetooth (keyboard, mouse) and WiFi also make sense.
"...far better designs are available at comparable prices."
Please give examples. We would all like to know.
By the way, I have no problem with "missing documentation", or sound or networking. on the Pi. What are you talking about?
No, there aren't. You can't list 10 in that price range that outperform it.
Pi2 makes a great Kodi system but falls short on 1080i/p. It needs just a bit more power hopefully this new Pi will do it
DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
This argument always breaks down when the person making it is asked to provide actual alternatives.
It also breaks down when you look at actual use cases. For many people, compatibility and ecosystem are far more important than performance. My use case: A classroom full of 4-6 graders, and a bunch of SD-Cards, electronic components, and prototype boards. The RPi "just works". It boots Linux, there are lots and lots of online tutorials, sample code, and projects that kids can do. The only other board that comes close is Arduino, and we use those too, but it can't do the same high level stuff as a RPi, such as running a webserver.
The Raspberry Pi is designed for broad pedagogical support. It's not for hackers or nerds. It's to introduce school kids to hardware. It's a cheap package with a support organization behind it so that regular people, like school teachers, can come up to speed with it enough that kids get exposed to it.
It has never been intended to be a hacker's platform, nor a low-cost SBC for 20-70 year olds to use.
I run all my network on Raspberry's. They are are a great bit of kit. All you need is to run a decent OS on it -> http://rpi.fatdog.eu/
Actually, Orange Pis were heavily overclocked and overvolted by Steven and whoever are behind the designs, bringing the clocks and volts down to within the range designed by Allwinner fixes stability - issues and thermals -- no need to underclock or undervolt. That said, they are selling Orange Pis and advertising with the heavily - overclocked and overvolted specs, which is kind of dishonest.
What do you mean? There's nothing stopping you from using all four cores. Stability is also fine if you use e.g. Armbian where the voltages and clocks have been brought back into Allwinner's reference - range, or you modify the fex - files yourself to do that. As I said in the other comment, Steven et. al. are selling and advertising OPis based on heavily-overclocked and -overvolted specs and that's where the stability-issues stem from.
I think everyone who's even remotely into hobby electronics knows what the ESP8266 is. They would also know that it has a tiny TINY microcontroller which can only run rudimentary code on it and puts it more in line with a WiFi dongle than anything else on your list.
It is capable of a whole lot more than what you give it credit for, see e.g. https://youtu.be/SSiRkpgwVKY?t... for a very neat example.
The ESP8266 isn't that tiny. It's still a lot better than the ATmega328P used on a basic Arduino and you see tons of people make projects with those. Sure it doesn't have as much I/O pins, DACs, etc but for the CPU/RAM part, it's way better.
ATmega328:
8-bit AVR RISC-based CPU running at 20 MHz (16 MHz on Arduino)
32 KiB flash memory for instructions, 1 KiB EEPROM, 2 KiB SRAM
ESP8266:
32-bit RISC CPU running at 80 MHz
64 KiB of instruction RAM, 96 KiB of data RAM
You can actually run the ESP8266 at 160MHz too just fine, no stability-issues whatsoever, and that gives it a whole lot more grunt. The lack of ADCs and I/O-pins and such are a bit of a downside depending on what one is planning to do with it, but then again, one could just use I2C - based extenders for those if one needs them. I have a PCF8574 8 - pin I/O - expander, for example -- if I don't need interrupts on those pins all it takes is the two pins for I2C on the ESP8266, if I need interrupts it's one more pin used. Also, the beauty of I2C is that one can chain multiple I2C - devices on the same bus, like e.g. with the PCF8574 I mentioned one could extend the amount of I/O - pins available by up to 128 pins, all just by using two pins on the ESP8266's side!
It's the much larger amount of RAM and built-in WiFi that makes the ESP8266 so great for so many things, they are fabulous little devices for low-power, WiFi-connected needs!
Fifteen years ago math and science students would have *killed* for the opportunity to get a PC with a Mathematica license and this kind of performance, especially when you can get the whole thing for under $50.
The Mathematica performance isn't impressive now - a normal PC will be more than 10x faster- but it's passable for simple work, and Mathematica licenses can be very expensive.
(Mathematica on the original RPi was just a gimmick, since it was really much too slow even to use the interface. But the RPi2 is a big step forward.)
And NONE of them have the community RPi does. Technical superiority is never a guarantee of success. The Rpis bigest fault is the internal busses are pretty weak, other than that its a solid SoC for the money. Nothing can touch the Pi Zero in performance per dollar, its fantastic. I have one with a 128 GB micro SD card capturing himawari-8 data every 10 minutes and displaying it on my living room TV.
Good-bye
Right, 400MHz Atheros with 64MB RAM as a competition to RPi. It's something completely different, in fact.
It's not the fall that kills you. It's the sudden stop at the end. -Douglas Adams
Perfect example. For what you want to do it's 'better'. However, for my project I need to connect a NrF24L01 radio to it. This is necessary because my arduino based sensors are powered by a pair of AA batteries. If I used the GL.iNet networking I would probably have to make my sensors ESP8266 baded and transmit the data via WiFi. This would use 6-8x the amount of power over what the NrF24L01 uses and I would need to buy a WiFi access point if I didn't already have one (although that's last part is probably not much of an issue for most of us).
While the GL.iNet has better networking capabilities the RPi 2 has a quad core CPU running at 900 MHz instead of 400 MHz. Since I store the data to a SQL database and then use JPGraph to convert it to images on the web pages that I use to view the data summary the CPU is a bigger issue for me. And for $13 more I have a device that can be repurposed into a media center at a later date if I find another solution to use as a reciever/database/webserver.
Which isn't to say that the GL.iNet is a bad device. If I want to build a portable TOR modem it would be a much better choice than the RPi. 'Better' all comes down to what you are doing.
I don't need luck. Just like all the previous models the Zero will be available from my local electronics store just after the initial run supply issues are sorted out.
But hey if you want to base all your arguements on this, then add "within 2 months from launch" to the list of requirements.
For many people, compatibility and ecosystem are far more important than performance.
Exactly. There are many alternatives to the Raspberry Pi (though I'm still not sure any can match it on cost). But none of them ship with something like NOOBS, a simple installation script that will magic on any number of very specific purpose built Linux distributions like super slim RISC, media centres like OpenELEC, just general Rasbian, (equips demonic shield with +10 fire resistance) Windows 10 IoT edition.
I didn't want to add "ease of getting started" to my wish list, because I'm still keen to know if the GP is actually capable of naming a better performing device for the same price.
Why are you comparing it to an 8bit AVR?
The summary and I are comparing it to a 1.2GHz 32bit ARM with 512MB of RAM.
You can actually run the ESP8266 at 160MHz too just fine,
Stop it with all the knowledge. This is supposed to be a "not well known" board. :-)
I found something better: http://www.dx.com/p/gl-inet-wi...
Dual Ethernet. $22. OpenWRT. I like the PI, but it needs better networking options.
Does that have GPIO pins? An active helpful user community? Hell, even the ability to connect to some form of video out? No? Well then.
I don't care about the overhead of a $5 USB Wifi dongle, the killer is the at the time possibly OK but in perpetuating it totally stupid decision to power the thing from a freaking cellphone charger rather than a 12V barrel jack connector. Anything I build with a Pi that involves attaching USB peripherals tends to end up as a spaghetti mess of a UBEC with splitter to feed the Pi and a powered USB hub hacked up to not backfeed power to the Pi but power the peripherals that the Pi can't power itself. I've ended up with Pi's pushed into the corner of a largeish weatherproof case that's otherwise filled with all the wiring and kludgery to get around the power problems.
Considering the price difference, the only thing that comes close to the ESP8266 is the Arduino Pro mini clones from China.
But you're right, compared to the Raspberry Pi, the ESP8266 is tiny. It's all relative.
Well, true, I certainly don't disagree with you there! The comparison is rather silly, but maybe Timothy was hoping to look smart by name-dropping "nerdy" things?
Then list them. Otherwise we don't know about them. As soon as I have looked into the alternatives I have realized that everyone of them have some shortcoming.
This. I've been looking for any boards similar that have RS422 / RS485 and a decent power in plug. Powering over USB is just stupid for so many reasons - however we're looking at designing our own UART -> RS422/485 port as well as trying to get a nice 5v-30v input power pack.
The limitations for more widespread use of the pi is just frustrating.
Oh, and put a god damn 4Gb storage chip on the thing!
Sendmail is like emacs: A nice operating system, but missing an editor and a MTA.
I guess that's one reason this new model includes Bluetooth - so you can throw away your perfectly functional USB peripherals such as keyboard and mouse and replace them with bt equivalents.
That actually makes its shortcomings _worse_. Hackers can get around them somehow (the USB and Network is a real pain though), but how are ordinary people expected to do so? Or are you saying ordinary people do not deserve good hardware? If so, I strongly disagree!
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Indeed. And they come with native USB and network, instead of the half-assed unreliable trash the RPi is using. But I guess when you have to use Broadcom chips, then you cannot really produce anything good.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Yup, you called it. Looking for a full 32-bit address space with the ability to partition mem sizes depending on the need "allocating" or "locking" them per core. With the ability to choose anywhere from 1 GB/core to the full 4 GB for a single thread (minus the overhead of the OS) a total of minimum 4GB RAM is plenty enough for an inexpensive embedded box. Would also like a 8 GB RAM Pi < $75 but that isn't going to happen anytime soon either.
Wireless for 2$ extra is fine, but I rather see them add SATA to the board. The SD storage is just too slow and too small.
The raspberry pi exposes school kids to an accessable higher level porogramming envuronment, with languages like Python, but also incorporates a set of general purpose i/o pins (GPIO) so they can interface real things to it. The design leverages a low cost processor really intended for a tablet or cellphone. It is obviously a compromise design, but has proven to be a successful compromise.
We could nitpick at it indefinitely, but it's thus far been a resounding success at what it was originally intended for.