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SCO Is Undeniably, Reliably Dead (fossforce.com)

An anonymous reader writes: On Friday, IBM and SCO filed an agreement with the US district court in Utah to accept a ruling of dismissal of the last remaining claims by SCO against IBM. Says the linked article, in line with our most recent other mentions of the long-due death spiral: This agreement wasn't unexpected, and in fact, came down right on deadline. On February 10, I reported that Judge David Nuffer with the U.S. District Court in Utah had ruled to dismiss a couple of interference claims SCO had filed against IBM, and had ordered both parties to reach an agreement on whether to accept the dismissal by February 26, which was Friday. In all likelihood this is the last we'll ever hear from SCO as its current owner, the California based software company Xinuos which now owns and markets many of SCO's old products, will probably remove what's left of SCO from life support.

112 of 172 comments (clear)

  1. They are? by Revek · · Score: 4, Funny

    In that case I make claim to all of linux.

    1. Re:They are? by Penguinisto · · Score: 2

      Too late - I already made claim to C/C++, and everyone (including Mssrs. Kernighan and Ritchie) owes me a frigload of money. Pay up, suckas.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    2. Re:They are? by halivar · · Score: 4, Funny

      So you're to blame for systemd. Damn you, Revek, damn you!

      And will you please, for the love of God, fix the video drivers?

    3. Re:They are? by unixisc · · Score: 1

      In that case I make claim to all of linux.

      I will claim SVR5 & Unixware and rebrand it as SVRV. And then put it under GPLv3.

      But seriously, SCO's product is still available - from Xinuos. They have made a product based on FreeBSD - a big departure from SCO, which was System V based.

    4. Re:They are? by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 1

      Righrt so now SCO is gone who get's to pull the plug on Yahoo?

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    5. Re:They are? by Shirley+Marquez · · Score: 1

      Yahoo is unlikely to close. It will just muddle along, becoming increasingly irrelevant. After all, Lycos (remember them?) still exists.

  2. Can't even get unicode right on the front page... by damn_registrars · · Score: 4, Funny

    Here we thought unicode support was just broken in comments and discussion, apparently it doesn't work anywhere here...

    I know this came up in the discussion back on February 2 after someone accidentally bought slashdot, but apparently it still isn't that important a month later...

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
  3. In other news, UTF8 still alive and going strong by lorinc · · Score: 4, Insightful

    March 2016, still UTF8 errors on /.

  4. Oh shit. by grub · · Score: 4, Funny


    Where do I send my $99 licensing fee?

    --
    Trolling is a art,
    1. Re:Oh shit. by Penguinisto · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Use some of it to buy Ms. Pamela Jones a nice scotch.

      If anyone has earned it...

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    2. Re:Oh shit. by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2

      Where is the +1 and/or "Like" button?

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    3. Re:Oh shit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      IIRC she wanted a red dress, or redress.

    4. Re:Oh shit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      WTF?

      Site is online, copyright owned by the posters, hers under creative commons.

  5. Copyrights did this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And we owe this 30 year court battle over Linux to... copyright law! I'm sure we all feel glad our work is protected by such an efficient and fair system!

    1. Re:Copyrights did this by bws111 · · Score: 1

      First of all, it was a 12 year battle, not 30, and second, how do you intend to enforce whatever FOSS license you like without copyright law? Suppose the case was the FSF suing IBM for putting GPL Linux code into their proprietary AIX product, would you still be complaining about copyright law?

      And, no, we don't owe this battle to copyright law, we owe it to a corrupt company attempting to pull a scam using copyright law. WTF is wrong with the mods?

    2. Re:Copyrights did this by KGIII · · Score: 1

      I should point out that Linux is protected because of copyright and that this case is one where it turned out right in the end. Unfortunately, there are no repercussions for the losing party - other than they lost some money. However, they're well and truly dead, as they should be.

      Point is, copyright is not bad (in and of itself - as a concept) but the current process and regulations could sure use some adjustments.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    3. Re:Copyrights did this by HiThere · · Score: 1

      AND to a corrupt legal system that doesn't rate justice very highly in it's decisions. The case should properly have ended early in January of the second year.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  6. still? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I can't believe this went on for so long. What is it, 14 years?

    Anybody remember that 'We own all your code' picture?

    1. Re:still? by Penguinisto · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Started in mid-2003, so not quite 13.

      While not successful in its original goal (that is, to destroy Linux) it did last long enough to serve Microsoft's purpose (to at least keep Linux off the mainstream user's desktop and blunt server adoption).

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    2. Re: still? by cyber-vandal · · Score: 2

      The Linux desktop developers did a better job than SCO ever could have.

    3. Re:still? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 2

      I can't believe this went on for so long. What is it, 14 years?

      Oh, now, you're making me feel old! I remember getting an email from the Chief Counsel from IBM, instructing me that I would have to give a sworn deposition concerning this case. This was because I had access to the AIX source code, and also did some work for the the IBM Linux Technology Center. CSI: Austin, Texas!

      The lawyer assigned to me had a Park Avenue address in New York City. I'm normally not the best friend of lawyers, but this guy was really good. I explained to him that I did some work with the AIX TCP/IP stack, and later did some device driver stuff for Linux, and he understood it all.

      It was all still pretty creepy, but the lawyer told me that SCO was just grabbing at straws, and trying to intimidate folks.

      Wow! Right out of the "Theater of the Hard to Believe!"

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    4. Re:still? by ClickOnThis · · Score: 1

      Anybody remember that 'We own all your code' picture?

      For those who don't, you can see it here.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
  7. I love SCO by sjbe · · Score: 1

    I made a killing shorting their stock about 10 years ago when they first sued IBM. Too bad they aren't still around to do more stupid things I could make money from.

  8. Not until... by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Has Netcraft confirmed it?

    --
    That is all.
  9. Where's the SCO is for Cows comments?!? by GerardAtJob · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I was wondering what's happening with the "XXX is for cows" comments... the only time it could be insightful the anonymous coward isn't making it...

    --
    I can't call that English ;-)
  10. "will probably remove what's left of SCO" by Nutria · · Score: 1

    Why? If it's even vaguely profitable, what's the reason for not selling it anymore?

    --
    "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    1. Re: "will probably remove what's left of SCO" by ebh · · Score: 1

      Also Ethan Allen furniture. Saw it last weekend.

  11. This breaking news just in... by mjpollard · · Score: 2

    Generallisimo Francisco Franco is still dead.

  12. Red Hat's suit? by Burdell · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Red Hat sued SCO in 2003 for false advertising, and that case was stayed pending resolution of the IBM case. Is that still pending (and can Red Hat try to get damages)?

    1. Re:Red Hat's suit? by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      Red Hat sued SCO in 2003 for false advertising, and that case was stayed pending resolution of the IBM case. Is that still pending (and can Red Hat try to get damages)?

      SCO has no money. Trying to revive that suit would only be a waste of legal fees.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    2. Re:Red Hat's suit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Don't think so. Red Hat's only chance of getting any money would be contingent on SCO emerging from bankruptcy. In order to that, though, SCO would need to win against IBM. Since that's impossible now, so I imagine that case will be ended (if it wasn't already).

  13. Pining by OzPeter · · Score: 4, Funny

    Sure its not just pining for the fjords? Or maybe just stunned?

    --
    I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
  14. Muchkin coroner's report by Ed+Avis · · Score: 2

    (adopt high-pitched voice) ...and SCO's not only merely dead,
    it's really most sincerely dead!

    --
    -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
  15. Unicode vs SCO - Why is SCO winning? by mykepredko · · Score: 2

    The SCO lawsuit started in 2003 and, in comparison, Unicode version 1.0 was released in 1992. So, it's not like this is a new standard, preceding the lawsuit by ten years. Unicode support in Linux seems to be around 1999.

    I guess somebody at /. (or, more likely submitters) are getting a perverse kick out of copy and pasting unicode characters on the SCO article and I'm trying to figure out why. Maybe /. article editor tools make the unicode characters invisible to them but this has been going on long enough.

    Timothy, et al, could you take this back to your new masters and get it fixed - one way or another? I, like probably a lot of people who come to this site, when we see the acronym "SCO" immediately look to see how many unicode characters are embedded in the summary.

    1. Re:Unicode vs SCO - Why is SCO winning? by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      RMS does not like Unicode. Therefore, I do not like Unicode.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
  16. Unixware Master Ace by sumdumgai · · Score: 1

    Guess my Unixware and Openserver Master Ace is worthless now?

    --
    âoeIn theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not." â Albert Einstein
  17. I fear for the future of Linux. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm getting quite worried about the future of Linux. We're seeing numerous factors converging, and it's not looking good for Linux.

    The first problem is that Linux is making no inroads into the desktop/workstation market. Desktop environments like GNOME 3 and Unity are widely disliked. Systemd has caused stability issues for many. There's no compelling open source applications, and the ones that might be candidates, like Firefox or GIMP, pale in comparison to their main competitors.

    Worse, Linux is becoming questioned as a server OS. Systemd has caused too many admins too many problems. The OpenSSL and Bash security woes have not helped. Now there are licensing questions about using ZFS with Linux. Meanwhile, we've seen OSes like FreeBSD and OpenBSD avoid many of these problems, or do a much better effort at prevent further problems.

    We've also seen recent versions of Windows Server become much more appealing options. There are now very minimal versions available, and they're extremely usable and practical. Best of all, they allow the use of the .NET stack and C#, which are among the best around. Serious developers prefer to use C# and .NET instead of the more amateurish PHP platform that's so common on Linux.

    While the Linux kernel does see widespread use in mobile devices through Android, it's critical to note that it's well hidden, with little use made of GNU or other open source software. Most Android users, and even many developers, wouldn't have any idea that Linux is involved, it's so well disguised.

    So we see Linux having totally failed in the desktop/workstation segment of the market. It's faltering within the server segment. It's barely visible within the mobile segment. It's facing strong competition from FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Windows and OS X. More and more people have found Linux's quality and robustness to be decreasing. And there's nothing to suggest that things will be improving for Linux any time soon.

    I'm really worried about all of this. I really hope that things will turn around, but it all seems so uncertain to me at this point.

    1. Re:I fear for the future of Linux. by tatman · · Score: 1

      All good points. To me, it's nothing new. Linux has "always been that way", so to speak. Die hard Linux users and admins will continue to admire, exclaim its superiority, and use it for their main OS. Business will swap directions as the winds blow. Hobbyists will continue to use with passive interest. This has been par for the course for as long as I can remember (for point of reference I started in Unix (ok technically not linux) on the now defunct unix SVR 5). I feel what it means is linux it will continue to hold similar market shares it does, and remain in use in similar capacities.

      --
      I've always said English was my second language. Had Romeo and Juliet been written in C, I might have understood it.
    2. Re:I fear for the future of Linux. by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      Linux is becoming questioned as a server OS.

      I hope you are not suggesting that Windows is a viable alternative. You might need to read up on Windows 10.

      I think the future for Linux could be great if the Unity/Systemd lessons are learned. (Not holding my breath. )

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    3. Re:I fear for the future of Linux. by Hylandr · · Score: 1

      I see this as really a good thing. My Wife and I lament frequently about the 'good ole days' of the Internet before the World Wide Web became popular.

      I don't want the bulk of 'AOL User mentality' on Linux desktops trashing the direction of a good solid OS.

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    4. Re:I fear for the future of Linux. by KGIII · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > Serious developers prefer to use C# and .NET instead of the more amateurish PHP platform that's so common on Linux.

      First, let me say that your post reeks of "concern trolling." The quoted part is a good example. So, if they aren't using C# and .NET they're not serious developers? Not only is that childish, it's wrong. I know this and I'm not even a developer - but I do know many, many developers. I know developers who, not out of idealism, use the tools they feel do the best. If you think serious development is limited to just C# and .NET then you're sorely mistaken.

      I could go on and dissect the rest of your post but that's all I need to point out for others to go back and reread your post in a new light. Your post is full of non-sequitur and assuming facts not in evidence. It's not even original and the only reason I'm bothering to reply is I've seen this same damned post a half dozen times in the past two weeks. Normally, it's moderated down - as it should be. Unfortunately, you've probably found a non-developer who decided that your post looked right so they voted it up.

      No, no I am *not* a developer (and neither are you). I do, on the other hand, know developers from all across the globe. Some of them are Windows users and develop on and for Windows. You might even say that they're in the majority. However, that number hasn't changed in the direction you seem to think it has changed, never mind not changing to the degree that you think it has changed.

      Other than a few rabid folks, nobody's switching from Linux to BSD over systemd and no major install bases are converting their servers to either BSD or to Windows. And lest you think I'm some sort of fanboy, I think it'd be prudent for me to point out that I was an MS MVP (multiple categories, multiple awards) for 6 or 7 years, have purchased more Apple devices than anyone on this site, love GhostBSD, and use Linux ever day while having a Windows phone. I really don't *care* what OS you use, be it libre or proprietary. I'd just prefer we base our arguments on things like facts, reason, and actual evidence.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    5. Re:I fear for the future of Linux. by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      I don't want the bulk of 'AOL User mentality' on Linux desktops trashing the direction of a good solid OS.

      A bit late for that. 35 years, 4 months, and 15 daystoo late, to be precise.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    6. Re:I fear for the future of Linux. by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Have you and many of the haters researched SystemD at all?

      Youtube (sorry it is blocked at work) had a great video on how a hater turned into a proponent and showed started ngnix as an example. In SystemD you create a Unit file with \\pathtodaemon startup type:x and that is it. No complicating scripting with evil nasty bash scripts if/fi statements all over.SystemD also is event driven so when one thing happens it can trigger something else if you set it up that way.

    7. Re:I fear for the future of Linux. by Hylandr · · Score: 1

      Can you justify your assertion with a link to a relevant link to that date ?

      Beyond Gates selling DOS to IBM.

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    8. Re:I fear for the future of Linux. by galen · · Score: 1

      As a real honest to god software developer for the past twenty years and having worked with just about every language and environment one might care to name, I can say that the prevailing sentiment amongst myself and my peers is that we're tired of all the platform/language headaches. From our perspective, there's little compelling reason to write in anything other than Java. As requirements; speed, efficiency, frugal resource usage, etc. pale in comparison to needing maintainable, reusable, run-anywhere code. Time and again we've had to rewrite engineering models, data services, etc just because their old code wouldn't fit in to whatever system was being put together. There are certainly specialty problems where absolute efficiency is of paramount importance, but I'd be weary of short-term gains at the cost of long-term maintainability.

      (For the similar reasons, this is why we favor open-source tools. I've written millions of lines of code that can no longer be run because some crucial third-party component's license expired a decade ago.)

    9. Re:I fear for the future of Linux. by BigZee · · Score: 1
      I don't think you should worry. The organisation I work for (a truely massive multinational) is only putting Linux and Windows servers on the floor (with the occasional AIX box). If you're running any enterprise s/w, with the exceptions of the obvious ones that need windows (Lync, Outlook etc), everything has to be on Linux. FreeBSD and OPenBSD don't have the support of enough support third-parties. Things like ZFS really aren't of interest at our level and if you need something like that, RHEL and Oracle have options. Its worth remembering as well that whilst windows might be making steps forward, it just doesn't tick the right HA and disaster abilities of a well configured cluster.

      In one other respect, Linux is also very successful - smartphones and other mobile devices. Sure, it's not the GNU/Linux we were expecting but the far is that Linux is in the palm of a lot of hands and this is still increasing.

    10. Re:I fear for the future of Linux. by tibit · · Score: 1

      The OpenSSL and Bash security woes have not helped.

      I think it's an issue of marketing. When you're on Windows 10, you'll get a nice "Windows cumulative upgrade blah blah". When you're on Linux, you get updates to all the packages, with nice informative change summaries that include security bugs fixed etc.

      The truth is, all mainstream platforms equally suffer from security bugs. Linux is no better and no worse here, I think.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    11. Re:I fear for the future of Linux. by knorthern+knight · · Score: 1

      > As requirements; speed, efficiency, frugal resource usage, etc. pale
      > in comparison to needing maintainable, reusable, run-anywhere code.

      What is this "run-anywhere code" you speak of? One PITA with Java is that for anything significantly more complex than "Hello World", an app written under e.g. Java 1.2.3.4.5 will run *ONLY* "anywhere Java 1.2.3.4.5 is installed"... not under Java 1.2.3.4.4 and not under Java 1.2.3.4.6. The end result is that some places have to keep multiple versions of Java around, including older versions with serious security holes.

      If people had to throw out all their apps with each Windows Service Pack, or each revision bump to the linux kernel, or else run multiple VMs of different versions to keep their old apps, they would be up in arms. Yet Java developers seem to expect exactly that, i.e. run multiple versions of the Java VM.

      --

      I'm not repeating myself
      I'm an X window user; I'm an ex-Windows user
    12. Re:I fear for the future of Linux. by Hognoxious · · Score: 2
      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    13. Re:I fear for the future of Linux. by galen · · Score: 1

      Not in my experience. I maintain and continue to develop several apps that are largely indifferent to the JVM version. In most cases there is a minimum necessary version and very rarely does an update change behavior at all. Those times that updates have forced code changes, they've always been minimally intrusive. Furthermore, to safeguard against update screwiness, just package your own favorite version of the JRE with your app; something that can't be done with .NET's system-wide deployment.

  18. ... and they escape by charlieo88 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How do all the bad actors in this case just get to walk away?

  19. Re:Can't even get unicode right on the front page. by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

    Here we thought unicode support was just broken in comments and discussion, apparently it doesn't work anywhere here...

    The strange thing is that the so-called "editors" don't filter out stuff that makes the text "break" in the presentation.

    --
    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
  20. Re:systemd has harmed Linux more than SCO did. by walterbyrd · · Score: 1, Troll

    Similar scams.

    Microsoft was behind scox scam, scox was just a pawn.

    Now Microsoft has partnered with Red Hat, and declared that only Red Hat Linux is immune from Microsoft patent lawsuits.

    So MS is still using IP scams to kill Linux. Instead of scox, MS is now partnering with Red Hat.

  21. So much for optimizing my supply chain by Nunya666 · · Score: 1

    SCO = Supply Chain Optimization

  22. She's really most sincerely dead by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

    As Coroner I must aver, I thoroughly examined her. And she's not only merely dead, she's really most sincerely dead

  23. Kinda like Franco by fredrated · · Score: 1

    Man it took him a long time to die.

    1. Re:Kinda like Franco by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but at least he is still dead.

  24. Great story to encapsulate major slashdot issues.. by Ecuador · · Score: 1

    Great summary to show off a couple of slashdot's worst issues: no unicode support for things as simple as quotes and useless "editing" that doesn't even correct the aforementioned obvious problem with the summary.
    So, new /. overlords, are you "on it" as you claimed or not?

    --
    Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
  25. SCO OpenServer V by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1

    FTW!

    --
    We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
  26. Actually not quite over by Mostly+a+lurker · · Score: 5, Informative

    What SCO agreed to is dismissing remaining motions for summary judgment . This is more IBM agreeing there is no point delaying SCO's option of appealing the motions that went against them. It is still possible that SCO might try one last gasp effort in the appeals court. I am not sure how long they have before they must file such an appeal.

    1. Re:Actually not quite over by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Plus, even if this case dies, SCO still has cases against a few companies that have been stayed pending the resolution of this one. I can't remember the particulars, but the death of this case may not be fatal to those. But there is also the change that collateral estoppel may apply as well.

    2. Re:Actually not quite over by sk999 · · Score: 1

      The lawsuits that SCO filed against other companies are all resolved. It lost against Novell and DaimlerChrysler and settled out of court against AutoZone (apparently getting a chunk of change from the latter).

      The only other pending lawsuit is Red Hat against SCO, and that case is adminstratively closed, likely to never be reopened.

      R.E. IBM, SCO will undoubtedly file an appeal, so saying that that SCO is absolutely dead is still premature. Kind of like that Monty Python skit https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    3. Re:Actually not quite over by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      How the hell are they paying their lawyers?

  27. Ding Dong the Sco is Dead! by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    Is there a grave-stone we can dance on, and perform other bodily activities?

    They made one for COBOL, although it was quite premature.

    1. Re: Ding Dong the Sco is Dead! by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      It's still not dead. I got an email from a recruiter about a COBOL contract yesterday.

    2. Re: Ding Dong the Sco is Dead! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Did they say how much money they were offering?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    3. Re: Ding Dong the Sco is Dead! by ebh · · Score: 1

      State of NJ? I've gotten them from every hole-in-the-wall contract house in seven states.

    4. Re: Ding Dong the Sco is Dead! by Tablizer · · Score: 2

      That's why I said "quite premature".

      COBOL lives because it's well-tuned by time for its niche of high-volume reliable back-end business and monetary processing, and isn't jacked around by fads, trends, and whims.

      It's like Latin: it's used in science and church documents BECAUSE it's a "dead" language not subject to societal whims. Nobody messes with it; here today, here tomorrow.

    5. Re: Ding Dong the Sco is Dead! by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      £280 a day. Not bad for dead tech. I haven't done any COBOL for 12 years so I don't think I'd be much use to them.

    6. Re: Ding Dong the Sco is Dead! by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      Nah Swindon, UK.

  28. Re:Can't even get unicode right on the front page. by wardrich86 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    after someone accidentally bought slashdot

    This bit here made me laugh way too fucking hard. Thanks damn_registrars - you've made my gloomy Tuesday a bit brighter :)

  29. Re:systemd has harmed Linux more than SCO did. by dAzED1 · · Score: 1, Troll

    have you volunteered with any of the other distros? They're all going to systemd. With all the problems that could be fixed, init still isn't one of them. Installed Fedora just to see what it's like these days - my laptop starts up fast unless it crashes, but then I have to sit staring at it for a minute or so until the network port icon indicates it's finished. Yay! Hope I didn't want to bind any services to that IP...except, I'll actually do something about it, by going back to a system which doesn't use systemd. And I'll help out with that poettering-free system, and make my voice heard during planning. And want to blame someone? Blame Ubuntu for being the first to "solve" a problem that didn't exist.

  30. Re:Can't even get unicode right on the front page. by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    tbh cleaning up advertising and making sure there is no malware in it seemed more important than unicode to me, too......I'll bet even Rei would agree.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  31. It's a trap... by dywolf · · Score: 1

    Get an axe.

    --
    The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
  32. Re:systemd has harmed Linux more than SCO did. by vel-ex-tech · · Score: 1

    Uh, wow. So instead of systemd causing you a problem, it was NetworkManager. *slow clap*

    The only time I've used NetworkManager was while I had BodhiLinux installed on a laptop that's since died. The damned thing would not reliably connect to the correct access point. I eventually just ripped NetworkManager out, configured wpa_supplicant, and it worked perfectly. Really, I should have just installed Gentoo, especially since I found an overlay that has a systemd-free Enlightenment E19. (Haven't seen whether or not E20 will compile as easily without systemd.)

    I say compile, but I haven't typed "./configure && make && make install" in ages.

    My Gentoo boxes are all still Poettering/RedHat-free. No systemd. No PulseAudio. No NetworkManager. I have a desktop, a wireless access point/IPv4 NAT/IPv6 router, and a server in the clouds all running Poettering-free Gentoo.

  33. Have another drink PJ! by Chas · · Score: 1

    You deserve it!

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  34. The real question remains by Lead+Butthead · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Why aren't Darl Mcbride and his cronies locked up in Club Fed for pump-n-dump scam they perpetuated?

    --
    ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
  35. Linux is fine by sjbe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The first problem is that Linux is making no inroads into the desktop/workstation market.

    Nothing new there. It's going to be virtually impossible to push Windows out of this desktop market. It's simple network effects. Linux would have to offer something that isn't available on Windows that people care strongly about for people to switch. Unlikely that is going to happen. The only thing that linux has that Windows doesn't is that it is available for free. But until the applications they use are also available on linux AND it is installed from day 1 they aren't going to switch en-mass.

    Worse, Linux is becoming questioned as a server OS.

    Not really. Yes it has problems but that's nothing new and none of them are so awful that it's going to change the landscape. People that use Windows servers will mostly continue to do so and people that use linux servers will mostly continue to do so. There really aren't any other serious options for most use cases. BSD isn't really terribly different (porting software between them is trivial) and OS X isn't really used for servers.

    While the Linux kernel does see widespread use in mobile devices through Android, it's critical to note that it's well hidden, with little use made of GNU or other open source software.

    So what? That's nothing new either. Whether or not people are aware they are using linux is mostly not very important. Most people don't care so long as it does what they want. Whether or not they know it is open source is similarly immaterial. It's important that it be open source but awareness of it is a peripheral concern.

    1. Re:Linux is fine by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Linux would have to offer something that isn't available on Windows that people care strongly about for people to switch.

      Like a decent UI or privacy?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    2. Re:Linux is fine by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Nothing new there. It's going to be virtually impossible to push Windows out of this desktop market. It's simple network effects. Linux would have to offer something that isn't available on Windows that people care strongly about for people to switch. Unlikely that is going to happen. The only thing that linux has that Windows doesn't is that it is available for free. But until the applications they use are also available on linux AND it is installed from day 1 they aren't going to switch en-mass.

      If Google didn't have Chromebooks I think they'd have crawled into Microsoft's "convertible" space with Android by now but to Google's business model a cloud-oriented laptop is much better than Linux. The smartphone/tablet market has been dealing Windows the death of a thousand pin pricks, sure there are a few professional applications with no real match but more and more the "light" mobile versions are good enough. What's really missing is someone to do the platform push, people aren't going to look for ISOs to reinstall their OS. To get things in real motion someone must get behind it and put it on the shop floor for people to buy.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    3. Re:Linux is fine by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Meh, I can say this to you without you getting irate or thinking that I'm attempting to do something other than what I am claiming to do...

      It is "en masse." I usually type it en masse but I made a mistake not long ago. Nobody picked up on it but then, just a few hours later, I noticed someone got dinged for it. That's when I thought about it and realized that I'd typed the same thing. I slunk (is that past-tense for slink?) off and was never discovered!

      'Masse' is French for mass. It's also in pool as the "masse shot." (Where you hit off center mass, intentionally, in order to make the ball do new and unusual things and tear the felt at your best friend's house and he kicks you out until you buy him a new felt and have it installed, and seeing as you're there you might as well have it leveled.)

      So, basically 'en' is French, as is 'masse.' When you type 'en mass,' you're mixing French and English. So, you're not technically wrong but you're sure as hell not right. If you're gonna stick with English then it is 'in mass.' 'In mass' is a fine way to put it. 'En mass' makes you look like you're not smart and we both know that's not true.

      Unlike most Grammar Nazis, I'm a polite Grammar Nazi. That and, well... My grammar isn't good enough to approach the subject with any ego attached. I just figure you don't want to look silly and we both know you're not dumb. I'm guilty of the same thing even though I know better. I think that, in my case, it was just me seeing the squiggly-line-of-doom and thinking I'd better change it. I've since added it to the custom dictionary.

      At any rate, I guess it's not technically wrong? It's just a bit silly to use the French 'en' and the English 'mass' when the goal is to use the phrase.

      As for the rest of your views, I'm inclined to agree. Windows has the desktop market and will for the foreseeable future. I don't think many people still cling to the idea of Linux on the desktop for the masses. I know that I don't - and I never have. I do not need affirmation, my ego is not that frail. I'm okay without needing others to tell me that I made the right choice for my operating system.

      I use an official Ubuntu 'flavor' and it's the least popular of all of them. I don't use it because it's the least popular, I use it because I prefer it. It has LXDE and I'm happiest with that and, as it is an official flavor, I've got access to the Ubuntu ecosystem and can use pretty much all the software available and all the resources available for it. I like that. That's why I picked it. I encourage others to make informed choices.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    4. Re:Linux is fine by Shirley+Marquez · · Score: 1

      Chromebooks run Linux. So do Android phones. Linux is alive and well as an end user OS in those forms. It's just the typical GNU/Linux desktop that has failed to break out of the enthusiast niche.

  36. Re:In other news, UTF8 still alive and going stron by tlhIngan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    March 2016, still UTF8 errors on /.

    You may not believe it, but /. supported Unicode for probably over 15 years now.

    Its just early abuse by posters destined to misuse it forced the implementation of a whitelist of acceptable UTF-8 characters, which basically are all the printables between 32 through 127. Everything else is effectively stripped. Since UTF-8 uses the high-bit to indicate that the codepoint consists of additional bytes,

    (The Unicode support came as part of Slashdot.jp way back when.).

    If you google for erocS or even 5:erocS, you can try to guess what the Unicode "fun" posters and trolls did that forced the implementation of the whitelist.

  37. Dead? Undead? by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1

    I will believe it when I see a picture of the stake through Darl's heart.

    --
    Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
  38. Re:Hasta la vista, Baby! by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
    What, or who, is "sianara"?

    My auntie that looks like a member of the Adams family.

    --
    Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
  39. Ob CSTB by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    Would the licensing fee happen to be around $699?

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  40. As coroner of Linux land, by wonderboss · · Score: 1

    I have thoroughly examined them,
    And they are not just merely dead,
    They are really quite sincerely dead.

    --
    more cowbell
  41. The battle is elsewhere now by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Like a decent UI or privacy?

    I'll presume you are being serious. Most people are familiar enough with Windows that anything other than a completely revolutionary gotta-have-it huge improvement isn't going to matter. If they haven't done it in 20 years I don't think we should reasonably expect it any time soon. Furthermore any such improvement could likely be easily copied by Microsoft in short order.

    As for privacy, people clearly aren't too concerned with that. If you need evidence I refer you to Facebook as exhibit A. A few people care greatly about it but they are a tiny tiny minority. Most people don't care much about privacy as an abstract concept.

    Neither of those things is going to cause people to switch who weren't already strongly inclined to switch anyway. The desktop PC battle is over and Microsoft won. However look at tablets and phones and Linux has a real opportunity there through Android. Tablets are making a huge dent in desktop PC sales and Android tablets are a big part of that.

  42. Re:SCO are dead by malditaenvidia · · Score: 1

    But I'm a satanist, you insensitive clod.

  43. I think scox-scam started in March 2003 by walterbyrd · · Score: 1

    > On March 6, 2003, the SCO Group (formerly known as Caldera International and Caldera Systems) filed a $1 billion lawsuit in the United States against IBM for allegedly “devaluing” its version of the UNIX operating system.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO_Group,_Inc._v._International_Business_Machines_Corp.

  44. Attention: whipslash! Mod abuse has been detected! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    whipslash, if you're reading this, can you please investigate what walterbyrd is talking about? I too find it suspicious how systemd-related comments in this submission and others so often get modded down, even when they're completely on-topic, relevant, insightful and informative.

    This is a case where anyone who modded down any of the systemd-related comments for this submission has committed mod abuse, should have all of the downmods they've ever made undone, and should be banned from ever moderating again. What they've done has harmed the discussion here, and that's inexcusable.

  45. Re:Hasta la vista, Baby! by aquabat · · Score: 1

    Is it what you say after a failed #kudatah?

    --
    A republic cannot succeed till it contains a certain body of men imbued with the principles of justice and honour.
  46. Re:In other news, UTF8 still alive and going stron by KGIII · · Score: 1

    €‘’öóíúüëéåäáßðfghïøñb®©£½¼¾÷¦”“ÖÓÍÚÜËÉÅÄÁÐFGHÏ‘B®ÆÆ

    Then there are HTML entities like < ± — – and even & are in there.

    If you're (or anyone else) curious as to how to input them, then hit reply and quote parent. Then you should see what goes into it. The first row is via keyboard input using AltGr keys and the second is via HTML. Not all HTML works, not all keyboard entry works. Quoting should reveal some of the ones that do not work.

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  47. Re:Ten Years by KGIII · · Score: 1

    I'm not quite sure when the trials started but they've been covering it, this whole thing, for longer than that.
    http://slashdot.org/?page=56&v...

    (I go through and look at old threads once in a while. I use the search fairly often for that.)

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  48. Darl McBride by GPLDAN · · Score: 2

    History should record that the whole SCO fiasco was the brain child of this scam artist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... It was a patent submarine attack and one of history's ugliest. The guy is now the CEO of some company he made up in his garage. Check out this garbageL https://www.crowdfunder.com/sh... What a joke. He got what he deserved.

  49. Re:systemd has harmed Linux more than SCO did. by KGIII · · Score: 1

    Did I miss something? How is this Ubuntu's fault? Unless I'm mistaken, isn't systemd from RedHat? Or are you mad that Ubuntu put it in their distro?

    Serious questions - I'm thinking I missed something. I'd thought I understood everything that had gone on.

    Hmm... I should add...

    I do maintain a number of servers, including remote and colo hosted servers. I have a full rack (and a part of one) in my basement at home. Everything in there, at the bare metal level, runs Linux and I want to say all of them have systemd on them - but I'm not worried about enterprise-level results, yet I seem to get them. Barring intentional downtime, I have to be near the five nines with just my home equipment. (Home is solar powered and it's effectively a house-wide UPS with mains and a generator as a backup.)

    I've never looked into it but I probably have better uptime at home than I do on colo stuff. Connectivity wouldn't be in the five nines, Home is in very, very rural NW Maine. I'm considering adding mobile connectivity as a fail-over and my uptime should hit those types of numbers. I've been away from home since September and have had zero unexpected downtime since I left. Even then, it has only been partially down, I can spin up a new VM pretty quickly.

    Full disclosure: I don't actively hate systemd. I learned a few new commands and it has come in handy. I'm an admin but not a professional admin. I've paid attention to the angst about systemd and haven't actually learned to hate it. You indicate that this is Ubuntu's fault and I'm kind of curious as to why that is. I'm not sure how Ubuntu plays into it when (unless i'm missing something) RedHat is responsible for systemd.

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  50. The people, the people! by Trogre · · Score: 1

    That's great that Caldera, later rebranded as SCO, is dead. Now what about the actual perpetrators of that Linux debacle, Darl McBride and Chris Sonntag?

    --
    "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
  51. Oh Yeah? by Greyfox · · Score: 1

    Did someone drive a stake through the body? Then burn it. Then drive a stake through the ashes and bury them. And then drive a stake through the ground where they were buried?

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  52. Re:Hasta la vista, Baby! by unixisc · · Score: 1

    Illiterate Japs, or others?

  53. pointless.... by sdinfoserv · · Score: 1

    What a huge waste... IBM's startup disks used to be Linux based. Boot, configure RAID, etc was all Linux. Now it's some stripped down Windows device code that takes 10 times longer to load, has less features and is less user friendly.
    Micro$soft must have had a huge bounty up to get big blue to switch... all rendering this case rather ... pointless....

  54. Re:The meaning of SCO by sdinfoserv · · Score: 1

    This was all Daryl McBride, former CEO of SCO. For a while, he was the most hated man on the internet. He was hitting every company he could find using Linux with a copyright infringement demanding payola. Many companies just paid to make it go away, Chrylser for example paid. There was a great website dedicated to this long painful process, I can't remember at the moment but some gal named Pam documented the entire process and translated the legaleze to English for the following techies.

  55. Re:All comments about systemd are modded down by SpaceDave · · Score: 1

    The comment in question compares the relative damage of the SCO saga vs systemd issues. Although it's easy to get sidetracked from there I do think the comparison is a relevant contribution. SCO is often assumed to have been one of the biggest ever threats to Linux. Comparing it to the systemd situation, with relevant arguments and examples, puts the SCO story in perspective.

    I for one agree with this perspective. I'm not a server admin myself but I was involved in our business decisions during the SCO "scare". There was never any question that we would pay a fee or drop Linux - it was always going to be business as usual. Other issues have had an impact though, and although we still use it for web servers we've since dropped Linux on most of our desktop computers. So in summary I think it is relevant to mention that there have always been bigger threats than SCO.

  56. Re:Just a flesh wound by HiThere · · Score: 1

    There's reasonable evidence, though not proof as far as I know, that Microsoft was bankrolling at least part of the case. You'd probably need to read back through Groklaw to find the reports of it though.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  57. Re:systemd has harmed Linux more than SCO did. by dAzED1 · · Score: 1

    where did I say Ubuntu was the first (big distro) with systemd? I said it was the first to solve that non-existent problem.

  58. Re:systemd has harmed Linux more than SCO did. by dAzED1 · · Score: 1

    ps - just in case you weren't aware, upstart predates systemd by like, 4 years. And pss, I've been a UNIX admin for 20 years (well, I'm a bit past it now for a while). A fresh, unmolested install of a newbie distro (like fedora) shouldn't require effort to make it happy. That I'll be back to a from-scratch system sometime in a week or two is also irrelevant. The larger point is that one shouldn't just point the finger at redhat for this - pretty much all major distros are using systemd now. And your gentoo example (which I did use for a year or two, many years ago)? Also not using init anymore.

  59. Re:systemd has harmed Linux more than SCO did. by KGIII · · Score: 1

    This is what you said:

    Blame Ubuntu for being the first to "solve" a problem that didn't exist.

    Wouldn't Redhat be the first? And, if not, are you saying that it solved a problem for RedHat?

    What non-existent problem did Ubuntu fix?

    I'm still, after all this time, trying to wrap my head around this. I was working on Unix systems back in the late starting at just about 1990. While I did administration duties, I'd still humbly submit that I am not an admin. It's a bit like I've written many lines of code but I am not a programmer. In both cases, I learned out of necessity and with the aid of many kind and knowledgeable people. I have absolutely no formal training in either but I do have a lot of hands-on.

    I noticed your post was moderated troll. The thing is, I'm not really sure if your post *is* a troll. If that makes sense.

    I see a lot of complaints with systemd but, in my experience, that's not borne out and some of the complaints seem a bit odd. Like the lack of binary logs. Err... You can not only output binary logs but you can still read them from another OS. I find journalctl to be pretty handy and the startup blame to be handy. You can even still use init scripts and I understand that they work exactly as they have for a long time. Don't ask me *how* to do that, I've not needed to look into it. I have it on good authority that it's not only doable, it's just like it was before.

    I mostly learned a few new commands and moved on. I've had no system instability. I've had no problems. But...

    I am *not* a professional administrator. I am not administrating 5,000 servers. Lemme count.... Only servers? Only bare metal? I maintain 23. I think... All of them Linux, varied distros. I think all the bare metal have systemd on them. I'm pretty sure at any rate - a quick bit of SSH tells me that this is so for the first half dozen.

    Oh, I've had problems. I just recently reconverted to using Linux exclusively, including on the desktop. I used Windows for a long time, I was even an MS MVP award winner for like 6 or 7 years (in various categories) and I'm actually kind of OS agnostic. I not only don't really care what other people use, I'm not all that particular about what I'll use. I'll even use OS X if I gotta.

    But, yes... I've had problems. I've had loads of problems over the years. I may not be a diagnostic expert but, as near as I can tell, none of them stem from systemd. If anything, systemd has helped me - on multiple occasions.

    So, I'm not sure I follow... What non-existent problem was Ubuntu the first to fix and why is RedHat not the first if they were the first ones to incorporate it?

    In your other post, you referenced a comment that I made about Gentoo. I didn't mention Gentoo? Given that spell check is flagging it as an incorrect word, and knowing my own proclivities, I'm inclined to think that I've never mentioned Gentoo. I don't use it. I do have it in a VM somewhere but it's not spun up. I'm also not sure about the upstart comment. I'm wondering if you've confused me with someone else at this point.

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  60. Re:systemd has harmed Linux more than SCO did. by dAzED1 · · Score: 1

    do you not get context? systemd, talk about doing it just to speed up boot time, yet I'm still waiting on my system to initialize anyway (regardless whether I have a desktop screen, it's worthless without a network). Do you not remember what init is, or does that simply predate you?

  61. Is SCO "Dead"? by walterbyrd · · Score: 1

    Sep 14, 2007
    http://www.unixresources.net/linux/clf/linuxtalk/archive/00/00/65/85/658554.html
    "Stick a fork in SCO. They're done."

    Nov 24, 2008
    http://www.cnet.com/news/ding-dong-sco-is-dead/
    "Ding, dong SCO is dead"

    Apr 14, 2011
    http://www.zdnet.com/article/sco-is-dead-sco-unix-lives-on/
    "SCO is dead ..."

    Aug 13, 2011
    http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/SCO-vs-Linux-it-s-over-1333900.html
    "SCO vs Linux: it's over"

    Aug 8, 2012
    http://www.zdnet.com/article/sco-is-finally-dead-parrot-dead/
    "SCO is finally 'Dead Parrot' Dead"

    Aug 8, 2012
    http://www.internetnews.com/blog/skerner/is-linux-nemesis-sco-finally-dead-now.html
    "Is Linux Nemesis SCO *FINALLY* Dead Now?"

    Feb 29, 2016
    http://fossforce.com/2016/02/sco-is-undeniably-and-reliably-dead/
    "SCO Is Undeniably and Reliably Dead"

  62. Re:systemd has harmed Linux more than SCO did. by KGIII · · Score: 1

    Oh no, I'm well aware of what init is. You can still use your init scripts, or so I'm told. I've never tried, I've never needed to. At any rate, init is a daemon that starts with the system. I want to say it has PID 1 but I suppose it might be 0 in some systems.

    Maybe I'm not getting this "context" or anything but I'm starting to think it might not be my fault. That's not actually a very articulate answer and doesn't actually answer any of the questions.

    What was Ubuntu first to fix that didn't need fixing? If it was Ubuntu who first fixed a non-problem with systemd then RedHat's usage must have fixed an existing problem seeing as they did it first and it wasn't a non-problem. I can only go by what you said were your positions. You are quite adamant that Ubuntu is to blame for having done this first and this first was fixing a non-problem. Except, well... RedHat did it first and that must have been a real problem that they fixed? That's what's remaining, unless I'm missing another option in there.

    I must be missing something.

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  63. Re:systemd has harmed Linux more than SCO did. by KGIII · · Score: 1

    Ah - I think I've got you. upstart! Ubuntu wrote and included upstart. I'm not sure that worked well - ever.

    Alright, so you're angry that they changed the initialization system? Hmm... Okay, why?

    I guess I'd be angry if it were forced on me. I guess, technically, it isn't. I'm kind of annoyed that it's now decided to include far more than the init system - there's no reason for it to be more than that - that's annoying but, so far so good.

    But, it's not like it's the first alternative? There's launchd, busybox, SMF (I'm most familiar with that and I think there's a port to Linux?), SystemStarter, etc..

    Why not rip it out and put it in there on your own? I guess it might be a bit of work but if there are enough angry people then it's likely some of them know what they're doing well enough to lend a hand? I think (don't quote me on this) Slackware's not systemd yet - or it wasn't the last time I looked.

    At any rate, what I'm not seeing is any problems - at all - here. That surely doesn't mean you're not having problems. I've just not seen any. What's up with your config that you're having issues? How often do you have these problems?

    Err... If I had to make a wild-ass guess, and I get to count VMs but only VMs that get spun up on a regular basis, I'm gonna take a stab at it and guess that I've probably got 100 or so installs. I realize that's nothing compared with however many you might have to deal with. But, it's on some very varied hardware and doing lots of interesting things. I've had zero issues with systemd itself.

    That's not meant to discount your problems or concerns, but meant as an indicator to show why I'm kind of baffled as to what people are doing. 'Cause you're not in the majority - as near as I can tell. I guess I'd complain most about them wrapping more and more things into it and the likelihood that systemd may eat away at developer time and the resulting monoculture more difficult for those wishing to avoid systemd, for whatever reasons they might have.

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  64. Windows isn't going anywhere by sjbe · · Score: 1

    There is always the fact the Windows security is abysmal.

    Which again is something people clearly don't care much about. Certainly not enough to switch to linux. And it's not as if the security on linux devices is universally bullet proof. It's better than Windows in many ways (talk about damning with faint praise...) but there are still plenty of security issues. Outside of certain security conscious organizations (like the DoD), security is a second or third order consideration.

    The DoD has been replacing Windows for mission critical systems for some years now.

    I could point out plenty of organizations that have found linux to be a better solution for their particular needs than Windows. Wall street is making pretty heavy use of linux too. That said, Windows still has somewhere around 90%+ of the desktop market and somewhere around 30% of the server market and those numbers have held steady for quite some time. Anecdotal stories of particular organizations (even large ones) switching doesn't tell us anything very useful. I'm not trying to downplay the importance of linux. Merely pointing out that it simply isn't going to win the fight on the desktop against Windows and that Windows isn't capturing meaningful market share from linux on servers.

  65. Re:systemd has harmed Linux more than SCO did. by dAzED1 · · Score: 1

    That's the thing - the people who don't understand what the problem is - and this is absolutely not meant as an insult in any way - don't *understand* what the problem is. They don't get that the whole community, and UNIX in general, was founded on KISS. I should be able to start in single user mode, and step through each thing along the way until the thing that breaks breaks, and fix it. But I can't really do that anymore - sure, systemd is ignorable when everything is working, but when it isn't, then one has to wonder why the 1 second I saved on bootup was necessary. Further - I'm not angry at anything. I'm simply saying that blaming Redhat for systemd is silly, when they weren't the first major distro to replace init (not by a long shot) and it's not like every other major distro hasn't also done the same now. Init wasn't broken, but the replacements are - they don't behave properly, LP is an ass, they break fundamental principles of the community, they make things complicated what should be simple, they decrease stability, they make things more complicated, and all to...make bootup a second or two faster. Err...what why huh? Now I can't even have a functional system unless I've mounted /usr, and sometimes even /var, of all things. Bloody hell, why? Not everything needs to be Windows, where things work at a basic level but can't be troubleshot deeply if anything goes wrong - if the tradeoff to not needing experts is to make something even experts can't easily fix, then you've only lost out, not gained.