Microsoft Losing Ground On Windows Store and UWP For Gaming

Vigile writes: Microsoft has big plans to try and merge the experiences of the Xbox One and Windows for gaming but the push back from the community and from major developers and personalities is mounting. Earlier this week PC Perspective posted a story that detailed the controversy around DX12 performance analysis without an exclusive full screen mode, changes to multi-GPU configurations and even compatibility issues with variable refresh that crop up from games from the Windows Store. Microsoft's only official response so far as been that it is listening to feedback and plans to address it with upcoming changes. Now today, Epic's Tim Sweeney has posted an editorial at The Guardian with an even more dramatic tone, saying that UWP (Unified Windows Platform) "can, should, must and will, die..." Clearly the stakes are being placed in the ground and even damage control from Phil Spencer on Twitter isn't likely to hold back angry PC users.

Comments

Angry PC Users?

[110010001000]

Seriously, 99% of PC users don't even understand what it means to be upset about "around DX12 performance analysis without an exclusive full screen mode, changes to multi-GPU configurations and even compatibility issues with variable refresh that crop up from games from the Windows Store". Or what UWP is. Does it mean that games aren't working? Maybe you mean Game DEVELOPERS are upset.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[cfalcon]

Who fucking cares about 99% of PC users. Gamers care about this shit, and gamers are nerds, and this is news for nerds.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

PC users? Sure. PC gamers, the people who spend tons of cashola on PC gaming hardware and game software will notice.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[110010001000]

Really? Gamers care? What Gamer is running games from the Windows store???

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is a list someone made:

        No SLI/Crossfire,
        Windows 10 store download is buggy,
        No refund policy explained,
        Vsync is always on,
        Always borderless fullscreen,
        Game files are protected,
        Can't launch it via the exe (So adding it as a non steam game will not work)
        No fps/hardware monitor software works with it,
        You need to take control of the folder as admin if you want access to the files
        Mouse software which lets you create custom binds for each game doesn't work
        Say bye to using sweetfx and mods
        Since no fps/hardware monitor software works, this means overlays meaning no Steam Controller since you can't use Big Picture Mode

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

It said "Angry PC Users", and the context was "PC Users angry about [the list of things]"

If 99% of PC users don't understand those things, then they aren't Angry PC Users so they aren't what they were talking about.

I might as well say "Game DEVELOPERS are upset? Seriously, 99% of developers actually build real estate, they don't know games. Maybe you mean software ENGINEERS are upset".

Then you say "software ENGINEERS are upset? Seriously, 99% of engineers don't know how to use computers, they run trains. I think you mean code MONKEYS are upset".

Then I say "code MONKEYS are upset? Seriously, 99% of monkeys can't drive trains, they spend their days shit-slinging. I think you mean ludonarrative ARTISTS".

Etc.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[110010001000]

Damn. Then don't buy games from the Windows Store. Problem soved!

Re:Angry PC Users?

[MightyMartian]

Oh fuck off! I don't think it's extreme at all to plunk $2,500 on the Megazapaplus 512GPU 512gb Uber Duber video card. Sure, I had to cut a hole in my case to fit it, and have to keep the whole unit in a chest freezer, but, I mean, that's totally normal, right?

Re:Angry PC Users?

[110010001000]

What. The. F?

Re:Angry PC Users?

[spire3661]

If Microsoft has their way, it will be ALL OF US. This is why Steam OS exists, to try and help stave off this future where Microsoft controls the PC gaming market. You saw what plans they had at the Xbox One launch shitshow, they havent abandoned them, just delayed.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[EvilSS]

Really? Gamers care? What Gamer is running games from the Windows store???

None, that's just it though. Microsoft is pushing it for their PC releases. Quantum Break, for example, is going to be exclusive to the Windows Store. It won't be on Steam or any other 3rd party platform. They are moving all of their 1st party games this direction and the fear is they are pushing 3rd party devs to do it as well.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[110010001000]

N00b. The Megazapaplus 512GPU is totally obsolete.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

So some FUD and some features a fraction of a percent of gamers use are part of UWP?

So programmers should use Win32 and code their solutions themselves. What's the problem?

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, no true ludonarrative artist...

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're not on a business-grade electricity tariff to cool and power your gaming rig, you're small time :P

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't tell if you're trolling or not, but there are a lot of features on that list that many, many gamers have become used to or even dependent on. Lacking the ability to mod games in particular will cause a lot of outcry. Even worse is the limitation to borderless fullscreen; every PC gamer I know swears by the holy writ of borderless windowed modes, which sound the same but absolutely are not.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Forgefather]

Maybe a gamer who wanted the to play the games that are exclusive to the windows store such as Quantum Break, which is what caused the entire controversy in the first place. What this represents is the carving up of the PC space into a console like model of distribution where Microsoft is the gatekeeper of the PC gaming experience.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[110010001000]

Yeah, I am pretty sure you should have seen THAT coming for years. Walled gardens. Don't use Windows if you don't like it.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Really?

GP gave a series of absurd examples to illustrate that your pedantic OP is absurd and unnecessary.

Everybody else simply gets the conclusion you made in your OP, but little old you needed to write it out to satisfy some obsessive compulsive ritual. I could have given you the benefit of the doubt, that you understood it outright like everyone else and just wanted to do some pedant showboating, but then you say WTF to the response...

Number 1 is off. Number 2 is off. Number 3 is off. Number 4 is off. All the elements are off because number 1 is off, number 2 is off, number 3 is off...

captcha: firers

Re: Angry PC Users?

[Type44Q]

You're either still not getting it (i.e. you're stupid) or you're being deliberately obtuse. My money's on both. :)

Re:Angry PC Users?

[ArhcAngel]

Remember Windows RT? This is Windows RT repackaged. It's the slow to a boil cooking method. Once they reach critical acceptance they will deprecate the Win32 API in Windows and ONLY UWP API's will work. This will take years but Microsoft has always gone for the long game. Remember when they lost the browser wars to Netscape or the time they were five years late to the internet?

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish I had mod points so I could mod this comment down. Find another site to troll.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, good. Because trying to kill Remedy failed last time when they let them port Alan Wake to PC.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Penguinisto]

Never thought I'd say this, but as someone who uses OSX in addition to Linux, even the Apple-loving side of me is looking down its nose and tut-tutting about lock-in...

Re: Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

im sure theres somthing relatively inconsequential you care more about than most. if you dont care about peformance gaming why are you here posting?

Re: Angry PC Users?

[vel-ex-tech]

I think GP has a valid point here. If that many things are broken (the file permission item seems a little blown out of proportion--so what if one needs to use Administrator; I sudo all the time in Linux), then don't buy games from the Windows Store.

The Windows Store becomes unprofitable because gamers stick with Steam? Boo hoo.

Pondering a bit about the next move from Microsoft to pursue their Unified Windows Platform. Windows 10 locks gaming down so tight that Steam can't run on Windows? Developers and gamers finally switch to Linux.

I can't imagine Microsoft would actually be dumb enough to chase gaming over to Linux. On the other hand, I've paid for all my games. I yarr! pirated Fallout 4 because I caved to peer pressure and the roommate already had the thing downloaded. Then it promptly blew my socks off and I bought a legit copy. The only thing in the software stack I've yarr! pirated and have every intention to continue to use without paying is Windows.

If I've completely missed the issue please help me out. I'm not much of a gamer myself but there is the occasional title now and then that dominates my spare time.

It will be interesting what happens when Windows 8.1 reaches end of life. I would be very hesitant to install Windows 10 unless there's a yarr! pirated release that's been neutered of telemetry. As far as I care, Windows is ArcadeOS. I keep updates disabled and only do important stuff when booted into Linux.

tl;dr if Microsoft wants to sufficiently piss off gamers, Steam+Linux is waiting in the wings.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

UWP doesn't have APIs, you filthy LUDDITE. It has APPY I's because UWP only apps apps, NOT LUDDITE GAMES!

Apps!

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Darinbob]

Every platform is stupid and has exclusive games. So what? Anyone playing games for awhile has learned that you can't play all of them. Can't play the xbox ones, can't play the playstation ones can't even play the windows games, it's an old story. On the other hand 9 out of 10 games are utter crap so you're not really missing anything. Any game from Microsoft is worth skipping anyway.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Darinbob]

Sure, but for 12 whole seconds it was state of the art.

Re: Angry PC Users?

[vel-ex-tech]

I gave the Wikipedia article about Quantum Break a once over. Probably should have done that before opening my mouth, but the only thing I have to add is that if Quantum Break does poorly, maybe it was a bad game. The concept seemed intriguing, sort of like an FPS/scifi take on Braid.

If releasing as a Windows 10/Windows Store exclusive becomes a clearly unprofitable decision, then developers won't be keen to release more Windows Store exclusives. Also looks like I won't be playing Quantum Break any time soon.

On the other hand, if all that happens is a bunch of gamergaters yelling loudly while releasing Windows Store exclusive is profitable, then this is the future of PC gaming, say sorry.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[lgw]

I never understood the furor around the XBox One launch. Who in their right mind still wants to haul physical disks around? Is this some console peasant fetish that we PC Gaming Overlords don't understand? Making everything effectively a download, like Steam or GOG, seemed like an improvement to me.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Darinbob]

But don't buy their games then there's no problem. You act as if Microsoft is making these changes to all PC games, which they can't do without making Windows completely closed and retroactively closing Windows 7 and 8 at the same time. No one is being forced to buy these upcoming games. 9 out of 10 new games are crap anyway, and 10 out of 10 games from Microsoft are crap. So a few titles that you can't easily play is no big deal.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[blue9steel]

Well if it's not on Steam I won't be buying it, so problem solved.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be new to PC gaming. Almost every single one of those issues is a major problem to PC gamers. Especially the no SLI/Crossfire, buggy download, no refund policy, forced vsync, windowed fullscreen, protected game files/no mods, inability to run from executable and no keyboard/mouse macros.

That's on top of all of the serious issues already present in Windows 10, such as spyware that can't be fully disabled, forced updates, forced reboots and the possibility of it damaging hardware.

Re: Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

That was not the aspect of the xbone launch that people hated. Sony got a huge applause just for saying there was no DRM hindering you from playing your disc on another console.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[blue9steel]

Which is why you run four of them, duh!

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Agent0013]

Not to mention that the article even said the only controller that will work is the XBOX controller. So who needs to configure a Steam controller if the controller won't even work with any games. I absolutely LOVE my Steam controller. I will very easily switch to gaming on Linux before I will give up that thing. Linux is already my non-gaming computer, so switching my gaming one over is an easy step.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Pax681]

Any game from Microsoft is worth skipping anyway.

Nah.. Freelancer was pretty damned good and had and still has a modding community.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

I never understood the furor around the XBox One launch. Who in their right mind still wants to haul physical disks around? Is this some console peasant fetish that we PC Gaming Overlords don't understand? Making everything effectively a download, like Steam or GOG, seemed like an improvement to me.

There are still use cases for carrying around physical media. Let's say you have an Xbox One. I bought a game that I want to show you. So I come over, log in to my Xbox live account on your Xbox One and then start downloading the game.

Then we sit on your couch for four hours downloading 40GB worth of data before we can do anything. Or I can bring the disk over, we can install the version on the disk (which might be out of date, but patches auto-download in the background), and be up and running in a few minutes.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think Microsoft has years left. When you consider the momentum building for developers to release x-platform to steam and console, open-source tools being developed to help with that, and the current state of the Linux desktop becoming quite user-friendly; then take the direction that MS is heading with forced full screen advertising, snoopware, and tighter restrictions and controls; It's the beginning of the end. It won't be long before some Wall Street Bean Counter realizes that Microsoft is more valuable in pieces.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody cares about that shit, you fucking retard.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[ArmoredDragon]

A good way to help fix this:

Any time you're asked to fix a computer with Windows 8 or 10, do the person a favor and unpin the Windows Store icon from the taskbar and start menu to make room for things that are actually useful.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[lgw]

Windows as a walled garden will die, and die quickly. The niche of Windows is the absence of the walls, for better or for worse.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Dutch Gun]

I was surprised at this as well. Do you know who apparently still like physical disks? Kids. They enjoy being able to lug their games over to a friend's house, throw it in their game console, and start playing. Personally, I've gone 100% digital. The idea of never having to touch another disk to launch a game is a joy, but not everyone cares.

That being said, part of the furor was the notion that MS is forcing you to check in with them once a day or your games simply don't work. That's pretty draconian. Losing the secondary used game market was also deemed unacceptable. Yes, it was a bit of an overreaction, but MS brought in on themselves by their "fuck you, peon, you'll like what we tell you to like" attitude, and the general impression that they were ignoring their core constituency: hardcore gamers. Plus, toss in the ridiculous forced inclusion of the Kinnect device, bumping up the price for a moderately inferior console, and it's not hard to see why the Xbox had a PR disaster early in it's lifecycle, and is likely paying the price even now.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[CronoCloud]

Who in their right mind still wants to haul physical disks around? Is this some console peasant fetish that we PC Gaming Overlords don't understand?

Bandwidth caps
Non-optimal speed with VERY large games.

Sure for games less than 10GB it's not a big thing, but titles larger than that?

Nothing can beat the bandwidth of a truck full of blu rays.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Different AC here and wanted to say I pretty much agree but also disagree. Console and PC gaming have always been two different worlds in my mind.

With console gaming, I have the same hardware as everyone else, the same peripherals as everyone else, and I'm going to have the same experience as everyone else. If the platform doesn't stream to $service, then I'm not going to be streaming $console_game to $service either. It's a given that the only mods $console_game will see will be DLC.

With PC gaming, the sky is the limit. Always has been, always will be. I've already tried a few Fallout 4 mods, and there's no official support for mods yet! Mods have kept Freelancer installed on my box for years and years since it was a thing. I'm not big on streaming but occasionally friends I only know through IRC who aren't gamers are interested in what's been sucking up all my free time lately.

As far as I can tell, the Windows Store/Windows 10/xbone is just another console platform. Like any console platform, I may miss out on exclusives, but Armored Core and Gran Turismo are pretty much the only franchises that motivate me to buy new consoles. Even then I'm getting older and finding that my priorities have shifted. Maybe I'll buy a PS7 to play Gran Turismo or Armored Core 10 with VR gear. I didn't really see a reason to buy Gran Turismo 6.

Another thing about PC gaming is that anybody can create a PC game. True, these days it takes more than just a lone wolf programmer to create something worth playing. Maybe the big players will have their Windows 10 exclusives. I guess what I'm saying is even if small-time indie developers move to Linux, there will always be PC gaming, even if there happens to be a console platform (UWP) that runs on your PC.

If gaming moves to Linux (or even if not), the big players would be foolish to pretend that they're selling to the PC gaming market by selling UWP exclusives. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not worried that this is a threat to Steam. Nobody would care if Quantum Break were a PS4 exclusive. Either way I'm not buying a PS4 to play a PS4 exclusive, and I'm not installing Windows 10 or buying an xbone to play that game. I've lost nothing of value and nothing's really changed.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Dutch Gun]

The key phrase is "once they reach critical acceptance". I realistically interpret this as "never". At the moment, they're not exactly making a lot of progress replacing traditional desktop apps, and they've got almost no presence at all in mobile.

No, Microsoft will not be killing the Win32 API, even if some in the company would like to. They'd kill one of their core constituency, which is businesses, obsoleting all the millions of legacy applications that run only on Windows which, realistically speaking, will *never* be ported. The idea that the desktop is going away anytime in the foreseeable future is a fantasy. If Microsoft is stupid enough to force people's hands to switch to a non-compatible platform, why wouldn't people then just switch to platform-neutral models like web apps, or even choose a non-MS platform?

Windows most significant advantage is its incredibly vast application ecosystem and robust backward compatibility. They want to keep people on their platforms, not drive them away in some mad power grab on a platform that's already shrinking in general significance.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Really the best solution would be to have games come on high speed USB flash drives or a mini SSD of some kind. No wasting time and bandwidth downloading, no installation needed because it runs right from its own media and more durable than an optical disc.

In a way it's almost like having cartridges again, only much smaller, cheaper to produce, faster and they can be written to for configuration, save games and other stuff.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[spire3661]

Physical discs have different laws and doctrines surrounding them. They have an intrinsic value that Microsoft was trying to move completely to their side of the table. It was about removing the physical value discs represent from the market. Further, they had NO DETAILS or proven implementations of the plans and wanted everyone to take it on faith. You are referencing something that was incredibly poorly conceived and had no tentpoles established of any kind. You are defending vaporware.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[spire3661]

Physical discs have REAL WORLD VALUE to the bearer. Microsofts plan was to move the entirety of that value to their side of the table.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Really the best solution would be to have games come on high speed USB flash drives or a mini SSD of some kind. No wasting time and bandwidth downloading, no installation needed because it runs right from its own media and more durable than an optical disc.

In a way it's almost like having cartridges again, only much smaller, cheaper to produce, faster and they can be written to for configuration, save games and other stuff.

The USB connector is really easy to damage and break if you're not careful, and since kids are a big user of consoles, 'careful' isn't something that they do very often. Plus the stress of inserting and removing a USB drive potentially thousands of times over the lifetime of the console means that you're just begging for the port to fail, either from the thousands of insertions/removals, or from someone not paying attention to which way the drive is oriented and forcing it in the wrong way.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why Steam OS exists, to try and help stave off this future where Microsoft controls the PC gaming market.

LOL. Because a future where Valve controls the PC gaming market is so much better.

I don't have a Steam account, because its terms are unacceptable to me. I used to call myself a gamer, but thanks to Steam, I stopped. Most games I used to play became Steam-only (here's looking at you Paradox and SI). Which ment they were no longer available to me. After paying for years, I was locked out. Nowadays I get my gaming fix mostly from GoG. Acceptable terms of use, full no-drm ownership and an optional client. Thanks to games such as Factorio (indepently launched, now also available on Steam, not yet on GoG) (also, shameless plug, I *love* this game), I am starting to refer to myself again as gamer.

From where I'm standing you're part of the problem: complaining about the chains of Microsoft while offering your wrists to Valve. I am thankful games are being released independently, or through competitors, and that more and more people seem fed up with Valve. Here's to GiD (GoG's new Games In Development, including rollback, yay!) outperforming Steam Greenlight.

If only we could get Linux ready for the desktop. ..... I wish I was kidding.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet consoles still have USB ports on them...

Anyhow, I call BS. I've been using USB since it first arrived and have never had a port simply wear out with normal use, there are newer USB connectors that are rated to be more durable and optical discs, optical drives and hard drives are far more fragile, yet they are still used in consoles, so your argument doesn't hold up.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Better is to just install Linux. You'll certainly never be asked to help them debug a Windows issue again, one way or another!

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Make sure you disable the Windows Store Service service too.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Actually, I do RTFA]

gamers are nerds

Gamers aren't nerds. They end to be under-35, but that's pretty much it. Games are mainstream.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[ArhcAngel]

I tend to agree with your assessment I was merely explaining why UWP matters and developers SHOULD be leery.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm like you. I don't like Steam and have never used it, but if I have to choose between Microsoft and Valve, I choose Valve. Mostly because I am less concerned about a company knowing which games I buy and play than I am a company that has embedded spyware directly into the operating system giving them access to everything on my PC. Secondly because I can run Steam on my choice of Linux distribution, which leaves ultimate control up to me.

Fortunately, I still have a backlog of games I've been wanting to play that aren't connected to either. gog.com, Amazon, ebay and torrents are good places to get many of those older titles. I am concerned with the direction gog.com is going though. They are trying to push this utterly redundant "Gog Galaxy" launcher, so I hope they don't eventually go power crazy and start making it a requirement, locking things down or implementing DRM.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

What this represents is the carving up of the PC space

Hi, non Steam account owner here. The PC space is already carved up. Steam, UPlay, Origin, Battle.net: all walled gardens.

So, no idea how you have to describe Microsofts attempt. Recarve? Precarve? I'm going with a misguided oldfashioned Embrace, Extend, Extinguish attempt. They are forgetting that they're not the powerhouse they were.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Jade Empire was also a fantastic game.

MechWarrior 4 and its standalone expansion were pretty good too. Nowhere near as good as MechWarrior 2, but better than MechWarrior 3.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Dutch Gun]

Remember that value depends on perception. The only value game discs have for me is entertainment value, and that value is actually enhanced when I have immediate access to the game rather than having to hunt down a disc I've forgotten I even own.

Naturally, MS and game publishers would certainly love to kill physical media, not because it has real world value, but the secondary effects of that - the used game market. Digital goods are a bit unlike physical goods in that there's no real penalty for owning a used copy. It's 100% identical to the brand new copy, and won't ever degrade, making the used market a *very* long tail that tends to eat into the long tail of game sales. Digital downloads sold to an individual user are the answer to that, of course.

Eventually the sheer convenience of digital downloads will make physical media obsolete. I think that will make a lot of people sad, but I'm not sure I'll be one of them, so long as we have some real competition in the gaming market to keep companies from turning into complete overlord-style asshats, which is otherwise near inevitable. Ultimately, that's our best trump card - the simple fact that we can take our entertainment dollars elsewhere if we choose.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhh, Microsoft won the browser war against Netscape. In the beginning, Navigator was the better browser, but IE surpassed it around v5.0 and Netscape died shortly afterwards.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Like I said, Galaxy is fully optional (and not supported on Linux yet).

They claim

We will release all of our games simultaneously through GOG Galaxy and the website.

and

GOG Galaxy is fully optional because you don’t need it to play games on GOG.com. If you want to, you can simply download your game via your browser, install it manually, and launch it offline, just like we've always done it on GOG.com.

But we'll have to see. Meanwhile, I'm a happy customer. What helps is drm-free is currently the main difference between GoG and Steam, I think (and hope), that they understand that fact.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

The average age of someone who plays games is 31 years old. In fact, more gamers are over the age of 36 than between the ages of 18 to 35 or under the age of 18. They are also mostly men, but by a slimming margin. Men make up 52 percent. From 2012 to 2013, the number of women gamers over the age of 50 grew by 32 percent.

Source

Re:Angry PC Users?

[torkus]

Nothing can beat the bandwidth of a truck full of blu rays.

Since it's /. I get to geek out and say nuh'uh

BDXL = 128GB = 120mm Dia x 1.2 mm = 9MB/mm^2
2.5" HDD = 4TB = 100mmx70x19 = 27MB/mm^2
3.5" HDD = 10TB = 146mmx102x25 = 30MB/mm^2
microSDXC = 200GB = 15mmx11x1 - 1212MB/mm^2

Flash wins by three orders of magnitude :)

26' uHaul truck (since we're geeks not CDL drivers) holds 7400lbs or 3357KG
uSDXC weights .25g so you can carry 13,428,000 (by volume is 2x higher but...max weight)
2,685,600,000GB or 2.7EB

Let's say we're going 100km/hr and going NYC to SF for 4700km or 47 hours or 169,200 seconds
So that's about 16000GB/s

The approximate bandwidth of a 26' uHaul is 127tbps.

Those cards are $100 each so it'd only cost $1.3 billion (plus gas, tolls, and rental)
Let me know next time you want to move 2.7EB from NYC to SF - I'm down.

Re: Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think they were using "the sarcasm" there, chief.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Physical discs have REAL WORLD VALUE to the bearer.

Ain't worth squat to a big chunk of the population; Steam is proof of that.

Microsofts plan was to move the entirety of that value to their side of the table.

Steam, uPlay, the Epic launcher whose name I can't recall at the moment? Let's not forget the Android and Apple stores. If anything, M$ is late to the party (as usual). LOL

Re:Angry PC Users?

[sexconker]

You mean how like you need UPlay for Ubisoft titles or Steam for Valve titles (or any of the other titles using Steamworks) or Origin for EA titles?

There's no reason for them to not have their own store/platform.
There's no reason for them to not make their own games exclusive to their own store/platform.
There's no reason for them to not entice 3rd parties into signing exclusivity contracts, or entice them in general by taking less of a cut.

More stores is a good thing. It promotes competition. Currently ever store takes 30% of sales by default. That's the same as physical retail, despite all the promises of digital being cheaper for publishers. This is why EA and Ubisoft made their own store. Steam was taking in a huge cut for doing nothing. MS should do the same.

If you have a problem with a particular game on the MS store or with UWP in general, tell MS and the developers/publishers and DON'T buy the game.
Make them fix it. Make 3rd parties avoid exclusivity deals. Do NOT buy the game as if you have no choice, because that just encourages them to keep taking choice away from you.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

people that want to lend or resell them, which is their right of first sale.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

I still like physical disks because I can sell the games when I'm done with them.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

512GPU eh? How many Bungholio Marks does it score?

Re:Angry PC Users?

[lgw]

Then we sit on your couch for four hours downloading 40GB worth of data before we can do anything. Or I can bring the disk over, we can install the version on the disk (which might be out of date, but patches auto-download in the background), and be up and running in a few minutes.

I only boughy a few games on the Xbone, but all of them downloaded the 40GB after installing from disk. I blame EA.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[lgw]

What intrinsic value? You buy, say, an EA game, and you're forced to create an Origin account and the disk gets locked to that account, right? At least, I always assumed tha was the point of Origin: to prevent resale. At least with the MS plan there was some sort of half-assed resale idea for downloads.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

DRM slave.

Only morons buy DRM-infested games.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[rtb61]

Purposefully obtuse is just annoying. The physical disk with the physical box and the physical manual can be sold. None of the digital distributors allows you to trade you games with other members, NONE. I am sick of marketdroid bullshit and spin. Now the pushback, demand regulations that force first sale doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... onto digital media, no please sir may I have another watery bowl of gruel, a swift kick in the goolies and I take the chicken from the table, laws to force first sale doctrine on digital media.

Re: Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhh, no, they weren't.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Except most PC gamers.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[jtmach]

It sounds awesome, but the latency will kill you.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

1/ not everyone lives in the US with cheap and easy access to bandwidth.

2/ Attaching a digital game to a account kills the second hand market. when you pay full price for a console game on dis , at least you can recover some of that money back. Do you really think ms would have dropped xbox game prices to steam sale prices if ms got their way with the xbox one launch?

3/ Console owners are poor. They cant afford a big outlay like pc users can on a pc or spend the equiv of a new console on a new graphics card every 2-3 years. Taking away the second hand market from them would really hurt them.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

This will take years but Microsoft has always gone for the long game

Please excuse me while I laugh at your absurd statement. Yes it is absurd. Why? MS pivots on tech every 3-5 years. How many different names has DirectX had? Quite a few. From DOS->WIN16->WIN32->MFC->ATL->COM->back to ATL->COM->DCOM->.NET 2 thru 4 -> WinForms->WPF->WPC and now 'universal apps'.

MS does this shit every few years.

The store is where they need people buying things from. But if they lock people out of using the APIs they want the store will be exactly where people do NOT put their applications. Gamers and game makers are nearly the same bunch of people. We don't put up with that sort of shit. We will just ignore it like the 5 previous game platforms MS has tried to lock people into.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[thegarbz]

You can halve your latency by using a hyrbid model transferring the 2.7EB from NYC to SF via truck, and then sending a single ACK packet back to NYC via the internet.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[im_thatoneguy]

Bandwidth has to be measured end-to-end. I can transmit terrabits per second over laser of random noise. So you have to take into account the time to copy data to a MicroSD at 90MB/s. So it's 169,200 seconds + the heat death of the universe over USB 2.0 to copy to each MicroSD. :D

Re:Angry PC Users?

[im_thatoneguy]

Dumb users:
"Windows sucks, it's full of viruses and malware!"

Microsoft:
"Introducing UWP, a sandboxed environment in which an app can't infect your computer with any viruses!"

Dumb users:
"Microsoft is trying to steal my ability to infect myself with viruses!"

There is nothing inherently wrong with UWP/WinRT. The APIs are still very immature and nowhere near the depth of Win32 which has had 30 years to bake but pretty much anything you can do in Win32 you can do in UWP.

And contrary to popular belief, you can install a UWP app without using the Windows Store. You can even distribute UWP apps without using the store. I made an app and just zipped it up and sent it to people. So yes, I do hope that Microsoft Deprecates Win32 sooner rather than later. Win32 is a whole mess of security nightmares. And Linux is no better. UWP is really ahead of the curve in being both powerful and also relatively secure. It's somewhat akin to running a container but without all of the virtualization hassles.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[im_thatoneguy]

Steam has a near monopoly on the PC gaming market (75%). And you're afraid that Microsoft might have a monopoly on the gaming market? Steam charges developers a fee, the same fee as Microsoft.

The "Xbox One launch shit show" was offering a system that gave customers more flexibility than Steam did.

If you don't like the Windows Store, then just sell your product with an installer and a sideload. UWP apps run by default without any system reconfiguration in Windows 10. But publishers *want* to be in a store. Publishers are more than happy (along with indies for that matter) to give Valve or Microsoft a 30% cut in exchange for payment processing, promotion and hosting fees. The Steam/Microsoft Store cut is still less or at least comparable to the Wholesale discount physical retail stores demand to sell physical disks. Sure you could throw up a website and try to sell through that. Or you could just sell it through steam and let them deal with DRM (yes steam is DRM), money and hopefully a featured banner on the front page.

The only thing Valve is pissed off about in regards to the Windows Store, is that Microsoft is competing on their turf doing the exact same thing.

Re: Angry PC Users?

[Black LED]

Sony is the only console maker that does anything "original". All of the rest have taken off the shelf parts and haphazardly stuck them together. Sony makes custom hardware for all of their consoles up to the PS4, which sitll has GDDR5 RAM.

You are just a Microsoft fanboi or shill.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

You act as if Microsoft is making these changes to all PC games, which they can't do without making Windows completely closed and retroactively closing Windows 7 and 8 at the same time.

So you don't see making DX12 Win10 only as being an attempt to do such a thing?

Re:Angry PC Users?

[CronoCloud]

AWESOME! someone did the math. So I guess that the bandwidth of a truck full of microsdxc is the one to beat. I wonder what the math would show if we added in cost as a modifier.

It might be cheaper to send several trucks of blu-rays.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you remember Netscape?
Then what happened to it after IE became part of windows?

Re:Angry PC Users?

[spire3661]

People who defend MS like this simply have not been watching them long enough to understand what they are. They are a PROVEN threat to consumers, over and over and over. Convicted abusive monopolist, right there next to Standard Oil and AT&T. They tried to outright kill Linux by funding SCO. People like you dont understand the incredible pain MS inflicted on computer science. I have been watching MS for almost 25 years, they havent changed much in that time. Still a ravenous, obtuse, stumbling elephant.

Re:Angry PC Users?

[torkus]

That's exactly what I was thinking as I clicked submit too...

Who's Phil Spencer?

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

>> even damage control from Phil Spencer

Who?

>> damage control...on Twitter

Yeah, time to rethink your PR strategy then because no one reads/forwards/retweets apologizes on Twitter. In fact, the only live people left over there seem to be reporters looking for the next drunk/racist/sexist celebrity/politician/athlete tweet, so craft accordingly...

Re:Who's Phil Spencer?

[Anonymous Coward]

You just gotta love this guy.

Re:Who's Phil Spencer?

[ZeroSerenity]

Head of the Xbox division.

One size fits all?

[QuietLagoon]

I've yet to see anything touted as "one size fits all" that does.

Re:One size fits all?

[Anonymous Coward]

One size for all. Fitting is optional.

Re:One size fits all?

[Cley Faye]

It's the same as "write once, run everywhere". Might looks good on paper, but once you get to use the thing you keep falling into cornercases.
Obviously in this case, the "cornercase" is that everyone will have to be dumbed down to fit, but hey, it will be easier right? (No it won't either).

Left a long time ago

[Anonymous Coward]

I left MS because of the abomination that was Windows 8. The last couple of years have proven my initial thoughts correct. MS cannot be trusted. Their products are a privacy nightmare. They screwed the pooch on mobile, they're doing it again here.

I fled to FreeBSD/OpenBSD and Sony PS4 (which also Runs FreeBSD). Never to return...

Impressive

[somenickname]

I dislike Microsoft as much as the next guy but, it's impressive to see a tech giant scrambling to try and remain relevant. So far it seems like their efforts are failing miserably but, I commend them for not just putting their fingers in their ears and chanting, "La La La". In classic Microsoft style, they have instead decided to just give their users and partners the middle finger. Stay classy, Microsoft.

Re:Impressive

[loonycyborg]

Makes sense for them since google play, appstore and valve steam can be taxed by companies owning them while open platform that windows is can't. In fact, taxes from store sales could easily yield more income per user than cost of single os licence. Can as well make OS license itself de jure free.

Re:Impressive

[blue9steel]

I find it a bit confusing, they're big and have cash, why not just buy Valve and call it a day?

Re:Impressive

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Well, they bought Minecraft recently. But yeah, I don't get why not. I believe they have a decent enough reputation in letting companies they buy run themselves that Valve could keep its flat organization (if negotiated into the purchase)

Re:Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

Because Valve would never agree to be bought by Microsoft.

Re:Impressive

[spire3661]

Valve is not for sale, it is privately held.

Re:Impressive

[blue9steel]

Everything is for sale at the right price. Being privately held just means they can't do a hostile takeover.

What is the point of the Windows Store?

[LichtSpektren]

What advantages are there to buying a game on the Windows Store versus Steam or GOG? Seriously, I cannot think of a single one. It has inferior performance, functionality, portability, etc.--I'm literally paying the same for less.

Re:What is the point of the Windows Store?

[Quince alPillan]

Windows Store has more mobile games that have been ported to Windows 10 than Steam or GoG. I've also seen a lot of "free" games that have huge advertising banners covering most of the screen. They're the same type of cheap and easy to make clones filled with advertisements and pay-to-win crapware that you'll find on any other mobile platform.

These aren't AAA titles, nor are they decent, older games with great gameplay like you'd find at Steam or GoG.

Re:What is the point of the Windows Store?

[DingerX]

Well, the chief advantage is that Microsoft can force its practical monopoly on gaming OSs to run Steam and GOG out of business. Then again, Valve has built up enough cash that they probably could make SteamOS into a serious contender, with a free office suite that actually had a UI that made sense.* In short, they've continually done wrong by gamers to the degree that, if they make a serious effort to move from "Windows DXnn -- Required for serious gaming" to "Windows UWP App store -- Required for PC gaming", then those who've made piles of cash from gamers will realize that they have to adapt or die, and to adapt, all they need is to produce a decent office suite and let Adobe do their thing. And Microsoft has been dropping the ball for so long, it'll be a cakewalk. *Consider the instructions to turn off the autoformatting that continually screws up your text in Word: Click on the File Pane, in the column ont he left, click on the Options icon-button. In the window that pops up, select in the left+colum the "Proofing" option (note: this is not the same as the "Proofing" field on the review Pane). Under the field "AutoCorrect" Options, press the button labeled "AutoCorrect Options". This will bring up a (Word XP, if not 6.0) dialogue. Click on the tab "AutoFormat As You Type" and de-select everything. In short, to make the program work for most of us, you need to navigate through the thirty-year history of the program, and every single UI change they made. Well, that's not entirely true. Thank God those variable drop-menus were dumped. But that just goes to show that Microsoft's cash cow has been vulnerable to a revolution for a long time, as Office has been the inefficient "Only Choice in Town". On the other hand, MS has never been good at the gaming market, simply because they can't overcome their B2B mentality and adopt one of fanatics.

Re:What is the point of the Windows Store?

[Billly Gates]

What advantages are there to buying a game on the Windows Store versus Steam or GOG? Seriously, I cannot think of a single one. It has inferior performance, functionality, portability, etc.--I'm literally paying the same for less.

1. Apple the arch enemy made sooo much money and overtook MS on size due to success of their store with Itunes and mobile apps. MS wants a piece of the action too! Not a feature for you, but for them
2. Theoretically with Redstone Windows 10.1 and 10.2 (early 2017) you can run the same games for your XBoxONE and XBoxONE will have access to pc software and games and apps like Nook, Netflix, etc.This is a feature for developers so they can just write once and forget.. Supposedly it can benefit some users who have a large collection of both games. UWP will be the glue to tie the experience and ecosystems together as one

However, it is far from ready based on the other comments. Windows 10 is very Vista like in my opinion. It is a concept not baked and even XP took Sp 2 before it was ready. I hope it will be enough by 2018 when Windows 7 goes EOL.

You will all use Windows 10 whether you like it or not by 2018 and 2019 at work and for pc hardware not being 7 compatible. MS needs to rapidly bake this as the turd Vista eventually turned into 7 after 3 years.

Re:What is the point of the Windows Store?

[HalAtWork]

The advantages are for Microsoft, to create a platform that is a walled garden and move away from Windows proper to this new floating platform that can work across devices, called Universal Windows Platform.

Re:What is the point of the Windows Store?

[Anonymous Coward]

You need to start think on how to exit this "matrix"

Re:What is the point of the Windows Store?

[Anonymous Coward]

What advantages it has does not matter as you will only be able to buy these games through their store.
They are basically slowly turning windows into a walled garden OS like IOS or consoles.
As long as the big AAA companies sign up for this we will be completely screwed and many of them will probably do so because in long run it will mean more control, less piracy and will prevent people from using third party software to cheat in multiplayer games.
The bigger hardware companies that make controllers will probably also be onboard. Now they can make deals with microsoft so that they can take away support for your logitech g27 or last gen controller so that you will be forced to buy a new one.

The end game is probably to cut off any third party software to be installed unless they are microsoft certified.

Re:What is the point of the Windows Store?

[im_thatoneguy]

The advantage is that you can use Xbox Live chat and ideally get cross-buy and cross play. So your game saves transfer between the Xbox and PC. That's a selling point for me. However not all Windows Store apps are cross buy.

Re:What is the point of the Windows Store?

[PincushionMan]

Problem with platforms is, sometimes they explode or catch on fire. As someone famously said:

“There is a pertinent story about a man who was working on an oil platform in the North Sea. He woke up one night from a loud explosion, which suddenly set his entire oil platform on fire. In mere moments, he was surrounded by flames. Through the smoke and heat, he barely made his way out of the chaos to the platform’s edge. When he looked down over the edge, all he could see were the dark, cold, foreboding Atlantic waters.

As the fire approached him, the man had mere seconds to react. He could stand on the platform, and inevitably be consumed by the burning flames. Or, he could plunge 30 meters in to the freezing waters. The man was standing upon a “burning platform,” and he needed to make a choice.

He decided to jump. It was unexpected. In ordinary circumstances, the man would never consider plunging into icy waters. But these were not ordinary times – his platform was on fire. The man survived the fall and the waters. After he was rescued, he noted that a “burning platform” caused a radical change in his behaviour."

We too, are standing on a “burning platform,” and we must decide how we are going to change our behaviour."

[1]

Thank you, Mr Elop!

Why do people want to switch to the Unified Windows Platform again? This platform may not explode, software can be left unsupported, deprecated, or superseded. For similar examples from Microsoft, see Stacker/Doublespace, Zune, PlaysForSure, Windows CE, Windows Java (and/or J#), and the WinPhone 7 to 8 transition.

[1] Wall Street Journal paywall/limited access.

As a casual user

[imgod2u]

I'd consider myself a "gamer" in a previous life. Nowadays, I have exactly one machine (my media PC) that has a decent-ish GPU that I rarely use to play games. My typical gaming? Plants vs Zombies on an iPad.

There are hordes more like me than there are multi-GPU people. And Microsoft is doing the smart thing here. The "PC gaming gods" that complain about this shit and want to "boycott" it are holding Windows as a whole back a decade. I want a Windows tablet (like the Surface) but I'm forced to admit, the iPad has *way way way* more apps. And part of that reason is because neckbeards who are very vocal but by far in the minority are guiding the platform for the majority of users.

Re:As a casual user

[110010001000]

100% correct. No one cares about "DX12 performance analysis without an exclusive full screen mode". Christ.

Re:As a casual user

[spire3661]

" The "PC gaming gods" that complain about this shit and want to "boycott" it are holding Windows as a whole back a decade."

Fuck you. Bill Gates PERSONALLY held back computing at least 2 decades and we are still paying for it and will continue to do so for a while.. you can shove this tripe up your ass.

Re:As a casual user

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought slashdot of all places would understand what is happening here. Microsoft is trying to force an app store that they control and curate (and probably take a cut of sales on). If this was about Microsoft locking down normal programs and only allowing installations from the Windows App Store slashdot would be up in arms. Dismissing this because the only games you play are Planets and Zombies is shortsighted.

Re:As a casual user

[110010001000]

We don't use Windows on Slashdot. We have been telling you for years that closed gardens are bad. Now you are learning your lesson.

Re:As a casual user

[epyT-R]

The existing traditional platform supports your plants vs zombies just fine. There's no reason to limit it with obviously consumer hostile 'app stores'. I don't get this relatively recent negative attitude towards open, diverse platforms. Windows has had this for decades, supporting casual and hardcore gaming quite well. MS shouldn't fuck with it.

If you're not a 'neckbeard' (your derogatory term for enthusiast) anymore, why do you still post to slashdot? Perhaps reddit or a gawker gaming site is more your speed?

Re:As a casual user

[epyT-R]

I bet if you grepped the logs for the site for user agents, you'd find quite the variety of operating systems.

Re:As a casual user

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you should ruminate on how many times you've had to tell people they don't care about something.

Re:As a casual user

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck you. Install linux today.

Market Stratification

[Anonymous Coward]

The purpose of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act of 1890 (and later laws) was to keep a single company from having full market share.

The result is that to expand, companies are forced to engage in market stratification. If you own a tire company, you can't own all other tire companies, but you can also start making the cars/tractors/golf carts you put the tires on, and you can buy your own rubber processing plants and your own rubber tree plantations.

Microsoft is simply trying to get to the point where they make the computer that they put their operating system on. In a sense they have already done this through the X-Box. What they will have to fight through is the divergence in the minds of many between a computer and a video game. Realistically there isn't much difference at this point.

Good for Linux

[Ormy]

I like using Linux for most things, but Windows 7 is my main OS because it plays all my games reliably, Linux is still lacking in this area. I'd love if this UWP fiasco finally pushed gamers and developers off of Windows for good,

Re:Good for Linux

[The Raven]

The only remaining big hangup preventing wide-scale adoption is the shitty video drivers on Linux. Until NVIDIA and AMD pour resources into better Linux drivers (or someone else pours even MORE resources into good open-source drivers) we will continue to see crappy performance, and that will keep potential developers at bay.

Re:Good for Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I like using Linux for most things, but Windows 7 is my main OS because it plays all my games reliably, Linux is still lacking in this area. I'd love if this UWP fiasco finally pushed gamers and developers off of Windows for good,

We can only dream....

Re:Good for Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I like using Linux for most things, but Windows 7 is my main OS because it plays all my games reliably, Linux is still lacking in this area. I'd love if this UWP fiasco finally pushed gamers and developers off of Windows for good,

I was a lot like you for a long time. Use Linux on some hobby computers and maybe a server or two, and use Windows for everything else. Use the best tool for the job, and all that. Windows was (and still is, really) the best OS for gaming, because that's what the majority of games and drivers target. But about six months ago, I decided that I had enough of Microsoft's shenanigans and I converted my main computer overfrom Windows 10 to FreeBSD and kept a cheap 'play' computer for Linux. Sure, it sucks to lose access to a large chunk of my Steam library and a lot of old Windows games that I've accumulated over the years, but that's the price I was willing to pay.

It's really easy to say that you like Linux or BSD or whatever, and it's really easy to say that you hope that more games and software will be ported to something other than Windows (and I'm sure you actually do mean it!). But the thing is, saying things and hoping does precisely squat. You have to actually affect the change you want to happen.

Until there's a critical mass of people actually actively switching away from Windows the status quo won't change, and I suspect, from talking to people and reading forums like right here on Slashdot, that a lot of people who use Windows "just for games" or just for one "critical" application (like Photoshop or something) and totally would switch, but X doesn't work. Those people will never actually switch away from Windows. It doesn't matter that there is a large enough variety of applications that Linux and BSD can do 90% or more of what you do now with your computer (especially with lots if stuff being served up in a web browser these days anyway, and programs like Wine and Crossover let you have access to a lot of Windows stuff on Not Windows). Lots of people just won't switch to Linux or BSD or even MacOS until they can run all of their pet Windows applications natively, without a shim like Wine.

Re:Good for Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

UWP is just a jail that dictates a set of APIs and platforms your app can run on. You must use a specific set of APIs, must release through Windows Store, and you can target whatever devices you choose from windows tablets to windows phones and windows PCs and windows TV boxes.

Re:Good for Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget shitty audio stack.

Re:Good for Linux

[antdude]

I thought NVIDIA has good drivers in Linux!

Re:Good for Linux

[Cley Faye]

They are working on it (both AMD and NVidia), either by releasing more documentation or by rewriting their binary drivers, now that people actually care ;)

Re:Good for Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, because my experience with Linux and OS X have been an absolute nightmare. Bash, for me, has also been a nightmare. They're both unintuitive piles of garbage and I loathe having to work with them over good ole windows. Granted, Windows 10 is not Windows 7, but it's definitely an innovative step in the right direction. And I'm sure someone with an encyclopedic knowledge of bash or Linux can come tell me how wrong I am, but honestly, I'm having trouble seeing it since I haven't spent the time immersing myself in a counterintuitive pseudo-scripting language with awful syntax.

So here's what I'm going to do, instead of playing around with your weird whatever GUI framework you use (probably Qt, but that may not be hip enough), I'm going to keep making apps in WPF, which isn't going anywhere. Then, using MVVM, I can hook it up to UWP pretty easily, if I want to. All made easy with Blend and VS. And while C# isn't quite portable for GUIs just yet, it won't stop .NET Core from making it truly portable.

Or better yet, if you really care about developing cross platform, use Node.

There's a reason why Windows 10 will do well, and if you can't see it, that just makes you retarded. Because it's quite a work of art in some areas, leaving Linux crying in the dust with its cool and seamless features. Even the drivers just magically install themselves. And don't you dare get me started on directory viewing, or the fact there are good UWP apps. But keep whining about how Windows is awful because that's what you have been led to believe without really questioning if the underlying operating system is really that bad or if there's a reason it has such a dominant marketshare.

But sure, enjoy developing for 10% of the desktop market because uhh, M$FT SUCKS! Yeah!

Re:Good for Linux

[The Raven]

No, NVIDIA has not-shitty drivers for Linux. They still under-perform, and under-feature their Windows counterpart, while still over-crashing.

They are not utter shit like the AMD drivers, but Windows gets all the developer attention, and thus the better drivers.

Re:Good for Linux

[antdude]

Ah, yeah. That was always a problem. I am more disappointed with AMD's opensourced drivers. :(

Micosoft

[frankd1988]

Microsoft has been losing grounds in everything but computers

Re:Micosoft

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they are losing ground on desktop and laptop PCs as well. Look at their financials...they are mainly earning money from enterprise...and the VAST majority of that is from Windows 7 and Office.

Windows 10 still has only about 20% market share...even after forcing upgrades on people who didn't ask for their PC to be "upgraded"...and even after offering the "upgrade" for free on home systems.

People DO NOT LIKE Windows 10, and this gives them more reasons to avoid it. It's "Games for Windows Live" all over again.

Re:Micosoft

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to break it to you, but Microsoft is really all about computers.

What exactly is the down side?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are people mad about this? It might potentially mean Halo for PC again.

Re:What exactly is the down side?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because UWP apps are harder to pirate than regular apps, and gamers are giant man-children who don't like paying for their entertainment.

Re:What exactly is the down side?

[epyT-R]

What, a shitty port of an fps that went full derp on console game'play' mechanics years ago?

Re:What exactly is the down side?

[epyT-R]

No. These people understand value and wish to retain access to doing the things they're used to doing with gaming. Three big ones are

1. user generated content
2. user run dedicated servers
3. not getting ripped off by treadmill dlc schemes.
4. no headaches from oppressive drm schemes

Re:What exactly is the down side?

[Anonymous Coward]

No thanks. I'd rather keep garbage like Halo as far away from PCs as possible.

Just remember...

[darkain]

Just remember that this opinion rant on The Guardian is coming from someone who cannot figure out how to sideload apps on his Android phone, because apparently opening an APK from any number of the existing file explorers out there and then having it directly prompt the user to temporarily enable side loading is a "hidden" feature that makes it difficult, just like how Windows has had UAC for a decade now.

Re:Just remember...

[UnknownSoldier]

> just remember that this opinion rant on The Guardian is coming from someone ...

This isn't just some dumb schmo off the internet. Maybe if you had written the Unreal Engine, or an optimized texture mapper in x86 assembly that supported dithering, written an whitepaper entitled The Next Mainstream Programming Language", AND been responsible for open sourcing the entire Unreal Engine then maybe we'd find you to be a little more credible. Tim is looking at the *big* picture, along with Valve. The more MS tries to be like Apple or Google the more game devs they piss off. Continued long enough it will reach critical mass.

> just like how Windows has had UAC for a decade now.

Riiight, because MS's solution is to *spam the user with modal dialog boxes*. When most people that crap off how is it solving the problem again???

Re:Just remember...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have no idea wtf language you just spoke, and don't know why you think your pet feature is anything close to mainstream.

Barring govt action

[rsilvergun]

I don't see how this won't fly. They're locking dx12 to it, and it sounds like dx12 is a huge performance boost. I know Vulcan is supposed to compete but I'll believe it when I've got games built of it in my Steam library...

Re:Barring govt action

[spacepimp]

DX12 is locked to Win10, so building games fro UWP locks out older versions of the OS as well as Linux/OSX/PS4 Android and iOS ports, then there is the 30% MS Tax. But in return you can save dev time on the XBOX one.

I think MS is shooting themselves in the foot, and the evidence thus far is the rapidly devolving of an app store into a ghost town. This is going to be as popular as WinRT, and probably will have a lifespan less than silverlight.

Re:Barring govt action

[rsilvergun]

Yeah, but the 30% Microsoft Tax is no different than the Valve tax. You get a lot for that 30%. Hosting, a patching service, full installer, DRM, etc, etc. Being locked to Win10 isn't such a problem for AA and AAA titles. Microsoft is giving it away, so you're Win7/8 users can just upgrade. The bigger titles weren't going to be Android/iOS ports and the PS4 is a DirectX Box too (albeit a DX11 one) and you were stuck doing a port over to it anyway.

Microsoft has the right idea. 30% of virtually all software sales is too sweet a deal to pass up for them. The only question is will Vulcan be a real alternative? I'll be shocked if it is. nVidia isn't scared of Microsoft. They guy that runs it is used to playing hardball. Unless AMD pulls off something big in the next 18 months they won't have the capital to support two competing graphics APIs in their driver. Even if they try one of them (read:Vulcan) is going to go to shit. It'll either be slow, crashy or both. That'll leave developers (and gamers) going back to DX12 whether they like it or not.

Re:Barring govt action

[Anonymous Coward]

The only question is will Vulcan be a real alternative?

The Roman god or the Star Trek planet?
The Graphics API is Vulkan.

Re:Barring govt action

[hairyfeet]

You probably ALREADY HAVE games that are Vulkan on your system....got any Mantle games? There ya go, Vulkan is Mantle 2.0.

And DX12 is gonna be a non-starter, since it won't support Win 7/8/8.1 which is more than 2/3rds of the Windows PC gaming market. Do you honestly think any game dev is gonna make a DX12 exclusive knowing that they 1.- Cut out 2/3rds of the market AND 2.- Get the "fun" of paying a 30% MSFT tax for being dumb enough to use it?

Re:Barring govt action

[Anonymous Coward]

Fear, uncertainty, doubt.

You nailed it.

Stop rewarding the...

[krisbrowne42]

...AAA industry for developing Windows Only.

There are literally THOUSANDS of games for Linux and Mac on Steam, and for every DirectX/Windows exclusive purchased on launch you could comfortably buy 2-4 of those and get just as much time, enjoyment, story and entertainment if not more.

Reward devs who support the platforms you want to use. Buy their software, and don't buy software from companies who don't want you.

The same goes for hardware. If you reliably buy GPUs that support Linux drivers well, and give feedback wherever possible that it was a contributing factor in your choice, they will do it more.

Vote with your $$

Pay to Play PC games online

[Anonymous Coward]

When you have to start paying for XBL to play your PC games online, you will change your tune. When game mods go away and replay value takes a dump, you will care. Well, unless you yourself are not a PC gamer then I don't suppose that you'd care at all.

Re:Pay to Play PC games online

[110010001000]

No, I won't care because I don't use Windows.

Re:Pay to Play PC games online

[epyT-R]

Well, if you don't care, and have no reason to, why are you posting here?

Re:Pay to Play PC games online

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

No, I won't care because I don't use Windows.

I'm on the verge of abandoning Win 7 (which I actually like) and moving over to Linux Mint.

I've got it installed (dual boot) on a laptop and it rocks. So far I've kept MS from 'upgrading' my PC to Win 10, but the moment that happens, *boom* I'm gone.

In fact I'll probably switch before then, but for the moment as long as my venerable Win 7 install keeps running I'll use it.

However, as soon as I buy a new bit of gear that doesn't have Win 7 drivers, that'll be the reason I jump ship (assuming that the new gear will work under Mint).

So basically it's just a matter of time until I switch....

Re:Pay to Play PC games online

[Anonymous Coward]

PC gaming isn't going anywhere. Well, I should rephrase that. PC gaming may move to Linux. From over here that sounds like a win+win. Yeah, games released for Windows may not have modding communities or replay value. How's that not true of every FPS of the moment exclusive release for any other console?

Windows just becomes another console that happens to run on x86_64 hardware. PC gaming moves to Linux. The infrastructure is pretty much there with Steam.

Re: Pay to Play PC games online

[Anonymous Coward]

This.

Re:Pay to Play PC games online

[WallyL]

I have already moved to Fedora to avoid Win 10. Truly, my personal Year of Linux on the Desktop.

Vulkan to the rescue?

[edxwelch]

I think this would be a great opportunity for Vulkan. Run your games on Windows 7 / Linux with no restrictions...

developers, listen up!

[Gravis Zero]

hey developers, if you use open APIs you are no longer at the mercy of one company's "vision" of what a platform should be and can get more users without having to repeatedly porting your code.

Re:developers, listen up!

[Billly Gates]

hey developers, if you use open APIs you are no longer at the mercy of one company's "vision" of what a platform should be and can get more users without having to repeatedly porting your code.

Well go write one then. DirectX won due to being more than just a renderer like OpenGL. It has directSound, DirectInput, and other features. Also one unfair advantage was the MBA phb types were so terrified over piracy they decided to focus just on the xbox. Backport it to PC if it compiles etc. So guess which API was supported on the xbox?

So write a competing one? Port it to Android and MacOSX as well and then you have some leverage? UWP right now is buggy but it is compelling if I were a game developer as I could target that for the xboxone and tell the pc users to just upgrade to Windows 10 and spend $0 for a pc port.

Re:developers, listen up!

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, your little retarded rant would make a whole lot more sense, if OpenAL and SDL didn't already exist.

Re:developers, listen up!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't mind the sock puppet. He's just trying to meet his reputation management quota for the day.

Re:developers, listen up!

[Anonymous Coward]

Then it's a good thing that you aren't a game developer. With that kind of attitude, you would soon be digging through dumpsters for your next meal.

DX12 must die

[ttyX]

DX12 must die for Vulkan to truly succeed, I hope it happens sooner than later.

Re:DX12 must die

[yodleboy]

Before DX we were heading down the path of proprietary API's from everyone that made video hardware. DX, OpenGL, custom crap like GLide. Would you really want GPU and API to look like the Android fragmentation. Do you think the quality or number of games would be better if every developer had to support 10 different API's? We'd have ended up with the equivalent of console "exclusive titles" that only ran on some graphics hardware. In fact, without the common standard of DX, video gaming might well have condensed into ONLY console gaming. Without a single, high performance, constantly evolving API like DX, would there even be a market for Vulkan? I think they owe a great deal to MS and DX for providing them with an environment to even exist.

MS has and continues to screw up a lot of things, but DX isn't one of them. There's a reason Vulkan likes to tout its "DX12 level of performance"...

Re:DX12 must die

[spacepimp]

DX12 is locked to Win 10. So is it a better world that a developer has to target his product at Win 10 and lose the people who didn't want to upgrade? Android fragmentation is about as relevant as windows fragmentation will be after DX12 games won't work on people's machines.

Re:DX12 must die

[Anonymous Coward]

Games would have (and some in fact have) managed with OpenGL as well.
Especially if people had made an effort and put pressure on Kronos earlier.
And GLide was well on the way out at that point.
Btw. OpenGL games from 1998 generally still work. DirectX 5/6 games from 1998 don't. And not because the games were written badly, but because silently all GPU manufacturers (and Microsoft itself at least to the level to not bother writing a compatibility layer) have dropped support for it. Typical Microsoft short-term planning, leaving the long-term mess they create to someone else to sort out.
Sure DirectX did a lot of nice things (Microsoft sure wrote more useful tests than Kronos OpenGL conformance for example). It sure doesn't belong on the pedestal you put it on though.

Re:DX12 must die

[Anonymous Coward]

What Android fragmentation? There is no fragmentation of GPU APIs on Android. It's OpenGL ES or go home. Maybe you're trying to make a ham-fisted analogy to the other parts of Android that are fragmented, but I'm not sure what the hell that has to do with GPU APIs. Obvious Microsoft shill is obvious.

Re:DX12 must die

[Anonymous Coward]

Your reference to "Android fragmentation" was really odd. It's as if you don't know what you're talking about. Have you even used an Android device?

So you built your business on M$

[Anonymous Coward]

and you're surprised their strategy interferes with yours. And this is news to you?! Darwinian business model will sort itself out. The entertainment industry is a joke that feeds off it's own hype and drama. Grow up, get out, and create something meaningful already.

Re:So you built your business on M$

[epyT-R]

Such as? The majority of software is redundant meaninglessness, designed to model the shuffling of paper from one end of a desk to another, or from one desk to another. How is that meaningful? It might get one a paycheck, but otherwise..

the app store lock down sucks!

[Joe_Dragon]

the app store lock down sucks!

Losing Ground?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bad headline - it implies they actually held some ground to lose.

Fixed Headline

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

The real headline should be, "Microsoft Losing Ground"

For the last decade most of what they've done has been either miserable or an outright disaster...Windows Me, Vista, MSN Messenger, the Zune, the Kin, the Windows Phones, Windows Mobile, Win 8 and 10, the Surface tablet, Bing, their app store....they're doing well with Azure but not a lot else.

Re:As usual, the Herd fights a good idea

[Anonymous Coward]

UWP (Universal Windows Platform) allows developers to create experiences that are easily deployed across all Windows 10 devices, from PCs to tablets to phones to Xbox One.

No one likes MSFT's anti-piracy behavior, nor its stodgy and standards-resistant approach to, well, anything, but -- looking at this objectively -- the idea of allowing one development platform across these different devices is an advancement for us all. Yes, let's stop developing for the idiosyncrasies of devices and start using standards like DirectX for what they were designed for: to free us from hardware, and make code that will run in the future without being trapped in the peculiarities of one chip or another.

$0.02

As long as that hardware is running a Microsoft OS, right?

Tim Sweeney cites UWP-exclusive features

[HalAtWork]

Tim Sweeney is saying "Microsoft has launched new PC Windows features exclusively in UWP and is effectively telling developers you can use these Windows features only if you submit to the control of our locked-down UWP ecosystem."
 
What features are these? Is he talking about newer DirectX features being exclusive to UWP or other important features that would put games on, say, Steam at a disadvantage? To create a UWP program you must distribute through the Windows Store, and this could make Vulkan (a competing/alternative graphics API) all the more important, but also could force developers to make tough choices about APIs and distribution together where previously the two were not linked.

The Linux Gaming Desktop

[evolutionary]

This may well push people to using Linux for their desktop gaming. With the Unity engine able to do Linux builds it makes it a LOT easier for major (and minor) game developer to just do Linux builds without the limitation that MS is trying to use. Steam (along with Steam OS) helps a bit too. But I'm seeing a LOT more titles for Linux in the past two years than every, including AAA rated games. The indies of course were first. Once DRM poisoned games like EA and Ubisoft get on board, MS may need to get worried. There is nothing that MS has that Linux doesn't. Once the hardware vendors get the message (Nvidia has, wish AMD would take it more seriously sooner), it will be a HUGE game changer. Only thing I'm worried about is that bloody PulseAudio. It's latency has issues. I always preferred OSS but I understand the temptation of having that PulseAudio layer (in combination with ALSA, which has up to this day not produced the same sound quality as OSS and I think OSS performs faster too). But MS I think knows it's in a losing battle. The world is starting to drop the MS desktop (Russian, Germany, China, among others) with fear of potentially private/secret/compromising data being sent through the Windows 10 "telemetry" data. The XBox, although the strongest hardware in the console world now I believe, no console will outperform a tower, especially with a mid-high end video card (and decent sound card, although most people don't seem to care nearly as much about that...go figure). At least support for Asus audio cards (which are quite good actually) in Linux is solid. Looking forward to a non-MS dominated gaming environment.

And just remember...

[Anonymous Coward]

All of you modding the parent up as "insightful" are doing so to a post written by someone who clearly did not read the article or disregarded large portions of it, as the article states nowhere that the author was unable to sideload apps on his Android phone, just that the way to do so is made deliberately obscure. "Insightful" indeed, jackass.

Re:As usual, the Herd fights a good idea

[spacepimp]

The hardware has to run Win10 or later, you are already trapped if you use win 7 win 8/8.1. All apps designed for UWP have to use DX12, The future trappings you are referring to only exist in a closed system with closed API"s with closed code on a locked down walled garden platform. But yeah we are better off for it?

Being Screwed by MS

[simpz]

What did people think would happen if you invest in a platform you don't control.

MS have a long history of screwing partners, especially if the partner has started to make real money in an area.

My sympathy for these developers is limited, yes release on Windows but you maybe want to do another platform so you have a plan B.

Re:As usual, the Herd fights a good idea

[epyT-R]

It's a bit more complicated than that. The 'app stores' are the antithesis of freedom.

PC gaming in flux

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft is obviously trying to reinvent how they make money. Since giving away Windows 10 was a obvious ploy to get users locked into a ecosystem and the Xbox One is basically part of that locked system. Steam has its issues, but at least its better then what PC gamer's had in the past. I do not like the future Microsoft is trying to do with Windows.

Re:PC gaming in flux

[LesFerg]

Microsoft is obviously trying to reinvent how they make money.

Well I am mystified myself; I finally decided to open up the windows store app and see if I could buy something, only to find that the dialog box that pops up for entering my credit card details into keeps turning black when I try to type into it. Completely black dialog except for the text entry fields. The colors flicker on and off as you scroll or click a hidden dropdown list, but basically I cannot type text into the textboxes and read the field labels at the same time. I have not seen such crap software in decades. It did not inspire me to use anything written for this platform.

Can anybody tell me what the windows 10 store app was written in? cos I don't want to use that toolset for developing software.

And for a first-time user of the store, that has put me off before I ever buy anything.

Re:PC gaming in flux

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi, I worked on the app. We used Visual Basic.

Re:PC gaming in flux

[LesFerg]

Hi, I worked on the app. We used Visual Basic.

heh. that would be tragic if it wasn't so funny

Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

is a disease that needs to be cured and eradicated, with every new version it try's to spread to a different organism using all possible method, hijack, kill, capture - it's time to kill it once and for all

time is now - kill windows!

MS have too much to gain

[SkunkPussy]

This is their play to get their own app store. If they can get a 30% cut on all games involving DX14 for example (by obliging DX14 games to use their app store), then they will be raking it in. There is no way they will give up on this strategy, as the benefits are too high.

Personally I say fuck them, they shit on PC gaming with GfWL because they were focusing on xbox, so I'm glad that Steam ate their lunch while they weren't looking. To add insult to injury, there are games now that are defunct because they relied on GfWL which was then abandoned by MS.

It turns out that Gaben was right all along about the need for SteamOS.

Intel may eventually help

[Anonymous Coward]

My theory is that eventually GPU's will reach a similar point to CPU's: by which I mean that the average/low end is far more than most gamers will realistically need.
Intel's Iris Pro work is a good step towards that.

Re:Intel may eventually help

[Anonymous Coward]

I think GPUs already reached that point some time ago.

Advantage for the developer

[Anonymous Coward]

I imagine the advantages are for the developers. You have one build system, which makes it easy to make a game that works on PC, Xbox One, Tablet, and phone. Microsoft takes care of all the retail, and billing stuff. Sounds like it could save a lot of time, and frustration for a small dev.

As for the user, I don't see a benefit.

Linux's problem is Market Share

[rsilvergun]

Linux is too small a share for devs to support it and make a profit. Unless Linux can find a way in the door and not have it slammed shut by Microsoft throwing their weight around (netbooks anyone) then it's not going anywhere. If all else fails Microsoft just refuses to support dual boot computers like they did when Hitachi shipped a dual boot BeOS computer. OEMs have a long history of depending on Microsoft to dump their tough support calls on, so that's a death knell right there. Oh, and Linux is still a nightmare to install anything on that's not open source. Yeah, you can apt-get anything in the repository, but life gets tough when you have to redistribute closed source software; and games are closed source. Maybe SteamOS will fix all that. We'll find out in about 3 years when the hardware gets cheap enough.

Re:Linux's problem is Market Share

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you could install Ubuntu (I recommend Ubuntu Gnome, but some like Unity or KDE...) today on your own hardware and get everything that SteamOS offers today. No need to wait for the overpriced SteamOS machines to get less overpriced.

There are at least two porting companies that spend time moving games from Windows to Linux, so there has to be at least *some* money in it. And since there are more and more titles being ported, there's apparently profitable money in it.

Linux usage has gone up by about 50% in the past two years based on browser statistics. That's also encouraging.

Re:Linux's problem is Market Share

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not really that Linux will catch up, because it won't. It's perpetually behind the curve because it's written by programmers for programmers. The end-user non-programmer barely enters the picture. Most gamers are non-programmers and even if you could teach them basic bash, couldn't use it to save their lives. Or even Linux at all. They'll just complain why everything just doesn't magically work like it does on Windows.

I mean, having to install drivers manually? That's absurd! They don't even know what that is!

Steam OS might be the ticket though. They do understand how to design things for the end-user.

Sounds good in theory

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, Microsoft is being smart, by making it easy to write an application once, and sell it electronically on PC, Xbox one, tablet, and phone.

However, for the PC, the software I buy, I pay >$50 for it, and buy it at a store. I don't want to use it on a tablet. For the tablet, there are small, cheap applications, which I buy easily. I don't want to use those apps on a PC. I don't want to use apps on my PC. I don't want to use PC programs on my tablet. I think it will be a small market, but people will continue to buy big PC only software in the store.

Re:How is it different?

[unixisc]

It's different in most of their apps & games suck in comparison to their iOS or Android equivalents. Even for some apps that are available on ALL platforms, the Windows versions are often crippled. Example is banking apps where the Windows versions can't deposit checks, even though the Android or iOS versions can.

Re: That's because UWP means APPS!

[Anonymous Coward]

Apps are for cows. Moo!

It'll work as well as XNA did

[scdeimos]

XNA was focused on .NET-based games development for Xbox and Windows and got abandoned by Microsoft in 2013. UWP is supposed to be a generic application development system, not games-specific, so how long will it really last?

hacked GPU drivers

[Anonymous Coward]

What is to stop GPU drivers, and Windows, from being hacked, and enabling some of these features for boxed software?

Walled gardens

[Anonymous Coward]

Walled gardens have never kept me trapped inside. The walls always kept me out.

What valve needs to do

[HalAtWork]

Is turn SteamOS libs into a portable runtime that also works on Windows, helping devs bring games to a format that works well on Linux

T.S.

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck you, install linux today!

sweeney i mostly agree

[Anonymous Coward]

...but...

the sideloading in windows and android certainly isn't really buried and/or obfuscated... ..and win32 NEEDS to die. Continued development of 32b apps should be discouraged, and i wish that ms would just kill the 32b windows skus.