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Boeing's Self-Cleaning Aircraft Bathroom Lets You Use Loo Without Touching Anything

Posted by timothy on from the infomercial-in-the-making dept.

coondoggie writes: With barely enough space to um, sit, and with high capacity usage, the commercial airline toilet perhaps is an engineering marvel but little else. Boeing however is looking to that notion with a self-cleaning aircraft bathroom -- known as the Fresh Lavatory -- that the company says uses ultraviolet (UV) light to kill 99.99% of germs in the loo -- and even puts down the toilet seat lid. "We're trying to alleviate the anxiety we all face when using a restroom that gets a workout during a flight," said Jeanne Yu, Boeing Commercial Airplanes Director of Environmental Performance in a statement. "In the prototype, we position the lights throughout the lavatory so that it floods the touch surfaces like the toilet seat, sink and countertops with the UV light once a person exits the lavatory. This sanitizing even helps eliminate odors."

81 of 135 comments (clear)

  1. Article title by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    does not in any way reflect the content of the story. If people leave paper or 'water' all over the floor, it will still be there.

    1. Re: Article title by Type44Q · · Score: 4, Funny

      Seriously. If I don't touch anything, I'm liable to piss all over myself.

    2. Re:Article title by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not as good as the self-cleaning street toilets I have seen in Paris.

    3. Re: Article title by beelsebob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And thus how Aircraft bathrooms get in the state they do - everyone tries to use them without touching anything.

    4. Re: Article title by fulldecent1341 · · Score: 1

      With high XP, and male tooling, it is possible to operate the entire session using only your feet. The one exception is using a knee to select the "occupied" lever.

    5. Re: Article title by jxander · · Score: 1

      How much XP do you require before your tooling can operate a zipper?

      --
      This signature is false.
    6. Re: Article title by Malc · · Score: 1

      Yeah the cleaning industry, media etc have done an amazing job exploting people's ignorance and paranoia about "germs", making a lot of people unreasonably neurotic. When I lived in N. America I couldn't beleive the number of adverts on TV on topics like making your home's kitchen more sterile than a hospital's surgery. And you wonder why we're having more problems with superbugs and people's immune systems are all messed up?

    7. Re: Article title by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Infectious disease is actually one of the major problems facing humanity. And there's a huge amount that can be done to reduce the incidence of infectious disease by reducing the rates of transmission. So the fundamental problem is ignorance - although that can lead to people putting their faith in ineffective methods of reducing transmission - which is paranoia in a very broad sense.

      Part of the problem is that there are just so many different pathogens out there in the world. First, down at the protein level there are the prion diseases - mad cow, kuru, etc. Then you get up to the level of viruses and, wow, that's a big one: AIDS, influenza, smallpox, West Nile, all the various "common cold" viruses, Ebola, the various "stomach flu" viruses, polio, and the various forms of herpes, just to name a few. Up one more level and you get the bacteria: the bubonic plague, tuberculosis, syphilis, chlamidia, cholera, shigella, and all kinds of other bacterial species that causes disease ranging from diarrhea to pneumonia to meningitis. Up another level and you've got your fungi - giving you things like athletes foot and jock itch in addition to all the nasty fatal stuff - not to forget malaria, of course. But, speaking of nasty, if you live in a developing country and don't have access to modern medical care, it's the higher level parasites that are truly horrifying - lymphatic filariasis and river blindess, for example.

      Anyway, there point is that there's a lot of pathogens out there - some even that are still undiscovered. And for most we really don't know the details of the mechanisms of transmission. Some pathogens are almost certainly rely primarily on airborne transmission - while other pathogens almost certainly rely on contact with contaminated surfaces. For the pathogens that rely on airborne transmission, the situation is complex. For example, many cold viruses are killed on desiccation. That is, they are coughed or sneezed out from the infected host in little aerosol droplets of water. But they are very fragile: when they eventually settle out onto a surface their plasma membrane (obtained from budding off of the hist cell) is disrupted and they "die". Of course, other viruses have a tough protein coat and can survive on a surface for days or even weeks. And volume goes as the cube of distance. So if an infected person sneezes then the concentration of infected aerosol droplets decreases very rapidly with distance. That is, there's a much higher chance of infection if someone sneezes right in your face than if they sneeze ten feet away. But the exact risks depend on the precise details of the air flow in the surrounding environment.

      TL;DR - there are things you can do to significantly reduce your risk of infection - but, generally speaking, those are not the products being advertised in TV.

    8. Re: Article title by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      Seriously. If I don't touch anything, I'm liable to piss all over myself.

      Yes, it would be like taking a piss in the vomit comet

    9. Re: Article title by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2

      We're getting into Howard Hughes levels of germ paranoia here. If you are worried about the "occupied" lever being dirty, just unlatch it and then wash your hands. Problem solved.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    10. Re: Article title by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I was on a 787 with ANA recently. First time I've ever dared to touch an airline toilet seat, except to lift it with a barrier of toilet paper for protection from cooties. I'm putting it down to having a proper toilet, not something that looks like it was borrowed from a prison cell, with a nice seat and washlet built in, and having cleaning supplies on hand. The ability to wipe the seat down with disinfectant is pretty important to me.

      I am kinda germophobic, although in my defence I do actually have a medical reason to be. But the point is that if you give people something nice and the ability to clean it, they will treat it with more respect.

      It would probably help if guys could be convinced to sit down to pee too, because the airplane toilets are extra small and the aircraft is moving around and probably on a slight incline and most people can't aim anyway.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    11. Re:Article title by Ogive17 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, my wife and I used those while in Paris. They seemed to be larger than needed and required 3 or 4 minutes between use to be ready for the next person.

      --
      "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
    12. Re:Article title by edtice1559 · · Score: 1

      I don't know about the self-cleaning toilets in Paris, only the ones in Switzerland. For a land-based self-cleaning toilet, it's okay to use a lot of water to rinse away the urine and feces that end up outside the bowl. On a plane you just can't carry as much so you have to be very water efficient. Hence an evacuation system rather than flushing. Nobody has talked about this. And as much as irradiating the germs sounds nice, it doesn't eliminate the gross toilet paper on the floor soaked with urine or the droplets that may be from sloppy hand washing but might be the result of poor aim. I'm thankful every time I take a plane that I have male tooling.

    13. Re: Article title by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Yeah the cleaning industry, media etc have done an amazing job exploting people's ignorance and paranoia about "germs", making a lot of people unreasonably neurotic.

      I saw a commercial for an automatic soap dispenser that touted that you wouldn't get germs on your hands if you used it to get soap. My response was: But you're putting soap on your hands at that point, shouldn't any germs you get on your hands at that point just die/get washed off soon afterwards? Why would you need something like this at your house?

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    14. Re: Article title by dj245 · · Score: 2

      And thus how Aircraft bathrooms get in the state they do - everyone tries to use them without touching anything.

      The first users, when the bathroom is clean, probably don't do that. It's when a bathroom starts getting untidy that a self-reinforcing feedback loop takes over. The dirtier the bathroom gets, the more successive users make it exponentially worse.

      Some airlines, particularly Japanese and Korean ones, have the flight attendants put on rubber gloves and clean up the bathroom periodically mid-flight. It's a bizarre concept, I know, but it seems to be a good solution.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    15. Re: Article title by fisted · · Score: 1

      That would be the job of your female seat neighbor. Got two 300 pound manwhales on the four seats left and right? Tough luck!

      --
      CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
    16. Re: Article title by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      Soap doesn't kill germs. All it does is makes oily substances more likely to be pulled along by water than they were before.

    17. Re: Article title by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      More than likely women trying to 'hover'. People that have had to work any kind of office cleaning job know which bathrooms are the most disgusting.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    18. Re: Article title by Idarubicin · · Score: 4, Informative

      Soap doesn't kill germs. All it does is makes oily substances more likely to be pulled along by water than they were before.

      Soap certainly kills some germs. There are lots of bacteria and viruses which are vulnerable to the SDS (sodium dodecyl sulfate), a detergent widely used in hand soaps, shampoos, and a bunch of other sudsy consumer products. The detergent disrupts the cell membranes of many bacteria, and it denatures (unfolds) important proteins in many strains of viruses and bacteria.

      Sure, the improvements to mechanical cleaning and suspension of oily matter are important, too. And there are certainly some things (spores and other more robust pathogens) which are resistant to SDS and other detergents, particularly at short exposure times. But "soap doesn't kill every germ" is a long way from "soap doesn't kill germs".

      --
      ~Idarubicin
    19. Re: Article title by chihowa · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the automatic soap dispensers seem the goofiest from a germaphobic point of view. I think that they're installed to limit how much soap is dispensed and save money for the owner.

      Automatic faucets make a lot of sense, though. The faucet control is touched by everybody before they wash their hands and then again immediately after they wash their hands. It took seeing an actual smear of feces on a faucet knob to really drive home how ineffective manually operated faucets in public restrooms really are.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    20. Re:Article title by chihowa · · Score: 1

      I've had nightmares about being stuck in one of those during the cleaning cycle.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    21. Re: Article title by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Do you travel frequently with the American Numismatic Association?

    22. Re: Article title by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      What, someone doing the job that definitely is for someone else. No, you can't go around doing that. The union won't allow it!

    23. Re: Article title by davester666 · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure I want a machine to unzip me and dig out my penis. Even going commando, it wouldn't be the easiest thing for the robot hand to get out, nevermind through the opening in boxers or briefs.

      Let's just say, I'm willing to get my hands dirty, to keep my johnson safe.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    24. Re: Article title by EdwardFurlong · · Score: 1

      There was a study that found automatic dispensing faucets harbored more germs.

  2. UV light =/= self cleaning by MrLogic17 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Sure, it's a good idea to kill of germs with UV light - but that ain't self cleaning. Someone sprinkles all over the seat, and leaves shaving hair in the sink, and you're going to need a lot more than a black light bulb.

    Sounds like this is a PR stunt to make passengers happy, without doing much on their end.

    I do wonder how all the plastics in the room will hold up with the extra UV light.

    1. Re:UV light =/= self cleaning by VernonNemitz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It depends on the surfaces being exposed to UV. Surfaces with titanium dioxide in them do tend to be self-cleaning.

    2. Re:UV light =/= self cleaning by Deadstick · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I liked the self-cleaning crappers in gas stations on the German/Austrian Autobahn. The seat is circular. As soon as you get up off it, the toilet flushes; a mechanical arm swings down with a sprayer and a brush; and the sprayer shpritzes and the brush spins while the seat rotates 360,

      You have to drop one euro in a slot to get in, but it gives you a receipt that gets you your money back if you buy anything.

    3. Re:UV light =/= self cleaning by throx · · Score: 1

      Sure, it's a good idea to kill of germs with UV light - but that ain't self cleaning. Someone sprinkles all over the seat, and leaves shaving hair in the sink, and you're going to need a lot more than a black light bulb.

      It really all depends on how much UV you use, doesn't it? (evil grin)

      --

      Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means

    4. Re:UV light =/= self cleaning by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Amazingly you are exposed to UV light every day. I know. Amazing!

    5. Re:UV light =/= self cleaning by hawguy · · Score: 3, Informative

      There is the issue about someone being in the bathroom. A small kid that the IR sensor doesn't detect, someone accidentally tapping the "door closed sensor twice", or other items... UV lights come on, and now the airline has a big fat lawsuit on their hands.

      Look at toilet sensors and how relatively inaccurate they are. Yes, they tend to be OK to not spray water on you in general, but cataract-causing UV light isn't something to be considered "good enough".

      If you didn't have those cataracts, you'd have been able to read the (short) article:

      The lavatory uses Far UV light that would be activated only when the lavatory is unoccupied. Far UV is different from the UVA or UVB light in tanning beds, and is not harmful to people

    6. Re:UV light =/= self cleaning by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Weightless kid that stands on the faucet?

    7. Re:UV light =/= self cleaning by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I do wonder how all the plastics in the room will hold up with the extra UV light.

      In 1986 I knew a few chemists that were working on making sure that they would.
      Is this supposed to be news for nerds or for people decades out of touch?

    8. Re:UV light =/= self cleaning by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 4, Funny

      You have to drop one euro in a slot to get in, but it gives you a receipt that gets you your money back if you buy anything.

      What would I want to buy from the toilet?

      --
      This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    9. Re:UV light =/= self cleaning by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 2

      "why did I read that as, "the shprayer shpritzes and the brush shpins while the sheat rotatesh"?"

      That's how you read it when you have the good dunkelbier.

    10. Re:UV light =/= self cleaning by arth1 · · Score: 2

      If you didn't have those cataracts, you'd have been able to read the (short) article:

      The lavatory uses Far UV light that would be activated only when the lavatory is unoccupied. Far UV is different from the UVA or UVB light in tanning beds, and is not harmful to people

      UVC at 100-280 nm encompasses the entire "Far UV" band of 122-200 nm. And UVC is, perhaps the most dangerous of all the UV bands, and that's precisely why it's used for sterilization. It's germicidal, mutagenic and carcinogenic.

      UV lights used in many public toilets and back alleys in the 80s[*] were banned many places, because of the harmful effects.

      [*]: For the multi-purpose of:
      - Mild sterilization.
      - Everything looks clean, no matter how dirty.
      - Customers would not spend too much time.
      - Heroin users would not be able to see veins to shoot up.

    11. Re:UV light =/= self cleaning by BlackPignouf · · Score: 1

      receipt that gets you your money back if you buy anything.

      No, you get 50c€ back, and everything you can buy there is at least 2€ more expensive than everywhere else.
      The best method to save money is to not buy anything.

  3. It doubles as a tanning booth by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1, Funny

    It's a dessert topping AND a floor wax.

    1. Re: It doubles as a tanning booth by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      "It stays crunchy, even in milk!"

  4. Loo? by msauve · · Score: 4, Funny

    I can see Boing (a US company) calling it a bathroom, a restroom, a toilet, or a head. But loo? That's Airbus territory.

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    1. Re:Loo? by darthsilun · · Score: 2

      I can see Boing (a US company) ...

      I'm not sure what country Boing is in. Bo_e_ing however is.

    2. Re:Loo? by msauve · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yeah. Damn muscle memory in my fingers sometimes gets in the way of spelling. Probably less of an issue for someone who hunts and pecks. Glad you were able to figure it out though.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    3. Re: Loo? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      No, todger country.

      --
      Table-ized A.I.
    4. Re:Loo? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      You type boing often?

    5. Re:Loo? by msauve · · Score: 1

      I type lots of words with the digraph "oi" in them. Do you use many words with "oei?" Can you even name a common one other than Boeing?

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    6. Re:Loo? by PPH · · Score: 1

      Boing? What do they make?

      Nothing springs to mind at the moment. Sorry.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    7. Re:Loo? by Tim+the+Gecko · · Score: 1

      Challenge accepted

  5. Re:Nothing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They should use the Tesla robotic tentacle to make it touchless.

  6. I'm a man by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 1

    >> Self-Cleaning Aircraft Bathroom Lets You Use Loo Without Touching Anything

    I'm a man. I don't ever recall having this problem.

  7. A little behind the times... by darthsilun · · Score: 2

    With barely enough space to um, sit, ....

    I see someone hasn't flown on a 787 or an A380 yet.

    1. Re:A little behind the times... by Harald+Paulsen · · Score: 1

      I have flown a A380, and the toilet had barely enough space to sit.

      http://images.theage.com.au/ft...

      (note: I was on a lufthansa, not qantas)

      I actually need to spread my legs a little to pee while sitting.

      However, there is a glimpse of hope, as there is supposed to be larger lavatories like these somewhere:
      http://www.wired.com/images_bl...

      --
      Harald
  8. street by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

    I'll use the designated shitting street.

    --
    Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    1. Re:street by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      The airplane aisle, or what?

      --
      10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
  9. Re:Without touching anything? by rossdee · · Score: 1

    "some sort of zero G loo?"

    and while that my be possible on an aircraft, its going to require a lot of cleaning as the rest of the passengers throw up all over the cabin...

  10. Re:Nothing? by flopsquad · · Score: 1

    Lets You Use Loo Without Touching Anything

    Welllll... I might have to touch ONE thing at least or else there will be a mess on my shoes.

    We have a solution for that too! Boeing Potty 3.0 lets you go completely hands-free by interfacing your personal device directly with the exterior of the fuselage!

    The gentle vacuum seal and brisk sensation let you know you're ready to Defile the Friendly Skies(TM).

    --
    Nothing posted to /. has ever been legal advice, including this.
  11. Re:But does it wipe my ass? by sims+2 · · Score: 1

    How's that damn three seashell thing work?

    --
    Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
  12. Speak of the devil by mdsolar · · Score: 3, Funny

    News for plumbers--stuff that flushes.

    1. Re:Speak of the devil by 8086 · · Score: 1

      where are my mod points when I need them

  13. I tried this one by goombah99 · · Score: 1

    I tried not touching anything once but I ended up peeing on my shoe. Sometimes you need to shake that last trip off. And it's kinda frightening operating the zipper without tucking things in just so.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  14. I call BS by romit_icarus · · Score: 1

    Quite obviously a PR/marketing stunt pandering to the obsessive fear of "germs", than any substantial improvement in the general quality of onboard health.

    It's no secret that the air in most long haul flights is unhealthy, with cabin humidity under 10% most of which being other passengers' body fluids. If Boeing and the airline industry really cared about the well being of its passengers it would modify the ratio of fresh to recirculated air than make a big song about adding UV lamps in the toilets.

  15. Reminds me by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

    Of the time I ate too many prunes and had to skip to my loo.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  16. "Lets You Use Loo" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Poor Mr. Loo

  17. UV doesn't necessarily mean germicidal. by GrpA · · Score: 2

    All germicidal lights produce copious quantities of ozone, which is toxic at concentrations at which your nose can detect it -

    Just another case of exchanging one form of toxin for another -

    GrpA

    --
    Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
    1. Re:UV doesn't necessarily mean germicidal. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      I expect they'll keep the room well-ventilated for odour reasons anyway.

    2. Re:UV doesn't necessarily mean germicidal. by PPH · · Score: 1

      All germicidal lights produce copious quantities of ozone

      Nope. That requires UV with a wavelength shorter than 240 nm. Germicidal lamps or fixtures are filtered to block wavelengths below 254 nm. Of course, if you don't like ozone, you shouldn't be flying around in the upper atmosphere where all that ozone is pumped through the cabin in the first place.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  18. Hands-free door latch by penguinoid · · Score: 1

    A hands-free door latch ... also under study,

    This sounds wonderful for a bathroom door especially considering how reliable hands-free sensors always are.

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
  19. Not the filthiest thing on an airplane by Edis+Krad · · Score: 4, Informative

    That jewel goes to the pulldown tray in front of you... where you eat your meals.
    http://edition.cnn.com/2015/09...

    1. Re:Not the filthiest thing on an airplane by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Take anti-bacterial wet wipes with you everywhere. It's the only way to be sure.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  20. Wow by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

    Light can clean up puddles of piss?!

    --
    Wanna buy a shirt?
    https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
  21. "More sterile than a hospital's surgery" ?? by Salgak1 · · Score: 1

    Mind you, hospitals aren't all that sterile. In an article less than a year old, it was estimated that ~4% of hospital patients acquired infections while in the hospital. And having family members on a hospital staff, I've experienced how infectious diseases tend to concentrate in hospitals. MRSA infections of surgical wounds come immediately to mind. . .but less serious infectious diseases seem to cluster in hospitals as well, like colds and influenzas. . .

    1. Re:"More sterile than a hospital's surgery" ?? by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      If only sick people would stop going to there maybe there wouldn't be so many infectious diseases at hospitals.

      Part of the problem with transmission is that doctors and nurses are not as good as they should be at washing their hands. For example this study looked at two hospital wards and found doctors were about 47% compliant. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p...

  22. I wonder by Dunbal · · Score: 1

    But will the toilet be smart enough to deal with this.

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  23. Hmmm. . . . by Salgak1 · · Score: 1

    The above post brings an ENTIRELY new meaning to "Slashdot Flame War" (grin)

  24. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  25. Re:But does it wipe my ass? by darthsilun · · Score: 2

    Try this simple trick before your next flight: take a shit BEFORE boarding the plane! Amazing, I know.

    Said the guy who has never spent 24 hours getting from origin to destination.

    When my body says "it's that time" nine hours in on a ten hour flight flight, I'm not going to see if I can tough it out through landing, taxiing, the passport line, waiting for my luggage, and a 60 minute drive to my hotel.

    I'm just not.[1]




    [1] because not every airport has toilets between the arrival gate and luggage.

  26. Re:But does it wipe my ass? by fredrated · · Score: 1

    Really? Are you able to shit on demand?

  27. Can we make the seat tables self-cleaning by gurps_npc · · Score: 1

    Because from what I hear, people do despicable things on them, and then little kids get on the next flight and pour cereal out onto them.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  28. How is that possible by dayton967 · · Score: 1

    The size of airplane bathrooms you can't be in them without touching all 4 walls with one part of your body or another. Sardine can's would even be larger.

  29. Patent? by PPH · · Score: 1

    From TFA:

    Boeing has filed for a patent on this concept.

    I've had a bathroom fixture with a germicidal lamp (fluorescent) for a few decades now.

    At one time, I looked into what it would take to replace my fluorescent lamp with UV-C LEDs. Close to a thousand dollars IIRC. I wonder if LED prices have come down significantly since then.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  30. So by Lauriy · · Score: 1

    if there's shit slowly sliding down the wall I can keep calm as it's microbe-free?

  31. Other reasons... by martinfb · · Score: 1

    The reason I 'miss when I piss' is because I am unstable from SITTING IN A SEAT THAT IS WAY TOO SMALL FOR ME - and I am a NORMAL sized person. Further, I am usually crammed next to someone that should have bought my seat as they take up 1.5 to 2 seats themselves. Airlines now charge extra for a seat with a little more room (Economy class, that is). My point is that Boeing (i.e. aircraft mfgrs) need to consider making even Economy class tolerable for humans. Perhaps they should ALL be required to fly economy in a full plane at least once a week! And then made to use the lav towards the middle of the flight!

    --


    Self-importance and self-indulgence is the root of ALL evil.