Facebook Exec Explains Why Technical Skills Aren't Enough To Be a Great Engineer (geekwire.com)

It is all a rat race by ickleberry · 2016-03-20 08:21 · Score: 4, Insightful

Nothing is ever enough for these corporations while there are still dollars in circulation that don't belong to them. Facebook is about making amazing solutions to fill Mark Zuckerberg's pocket, nothing more, nothing less. "Real people in the real world" my bollox

Re:It is all a rat race by Aighearach · 2016-03-20 08:31 · Score: 4, Insightful

Yeah, the crap about "pushing mankind to its outer limits" is hard to read. Is that really what engineering does?
Obviously, understanding the humans and the use cases is more important to being a great engineer than just math; the math is just a base requirement, not the job of engineering.
Re:It is all a rat race by phrostie · 2016-03-20 08:36 · Score: 2

Engineers find solutions to problems.
Marketing tells consumers that they just didn't know they needed it(insert new thinner/faster product here).
Re:It is all a rat race by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 08:38 · Score: 0

You can be brilliant in the Math and Science of your filed, and be Imaginative and Creative, but if Management sucks for one of a variety of reasons ( Not Invented Here, Protectors of existing Territory, Credit Stealing Asshats and so on....) or you are just not well connected, then your ideas will go nowhere.
Any large company like Facebook is FILLED with such people.
Re:It is all a rat race by WarJolt · 2016-03-20 08:53 · Score: 2

It's not always marketings fault. For example I know plenty of brilliant "engineers" who don't understand why global memory is a bad thing. He's great at solving problems but the code is atrocious. I know other great coders who can't think outside of the box and be creative, but if you tell them exactly what to work on they produce good results.
Great engineers have a good balance of creativity, discipline, skill, intelligence and drive. Usually I identify them by their willingness to learn new things.
Re:It is all a rat race by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:04 · Score: 0

The earlier phrasing about "encouraging someone else to speak up" is the general subtext behind "white people stop contributing, only minorities are allowed to contribute."
Re: It is all a rat race by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:12 · Score: 0

Well they needed a way to discriminate against the top US talent, and I guess they didn't want to up and say born in India was the deciding factor these days.
Re:It is all a rat race by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:22 · Score: 0

Or a reaction to the typical composition of software development teams - a bunch of introverts with perhaps one extrovert, in which brainstorming sessions are dominated by the extrovert simply because they speak the loudest.
Re:It is all a rat race by clovis · 2016-03-20 09:44 · Score: 2

Yeah, the crap about "pushing mankind to its outer limits" is hard to read. Is that really what engineering does?
I don't know about engineers, but raising teenagers will sure do that.
Re: It is all a rat race by BarbaraHudson · 2016-03-20 10:12 · Score: 2

Definitely not "in the real world." Somebody's been reading their own pep talks and mistaking them for reality. Why is this even a story?

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"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Re:It is all a rat race by Kjella · 2016-03-20 10:22 · Score: 5, Interesting

Nothing is ever enough for these corporations while there are still dollars in circulation that don't belong to them. Facebook is about making amazing solutions to fill Mark Zuckerberg's pocket, nothing more, nothing less. "Real people in the real world" my bollox
And yet... how many of us have actually made a product 1+ billion "real people in the real world" use and how many are just being Internet warriors in the comments field? I've seen a lot of engineers get lost in technical or academic challenges, philosophical issues or just perceived wants and needs the customers/users would have that they really don't. Cue the infamous "No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame." when Apple released the iPod. Or why "assume a spherical cow" has become a running joke of theoretical models.
There is a lot of hubris that it's what the STEM people do that's important and everything else is fluff. If nobody else will stick their neck out, I will: I don't really understand people, like what the mainstream wants or why. And that's okay, because the people who do generally haven't don't know much about actually building it. And sometimes the economists will tell you that yes, people want it and yes, we could build it but you'd be spending $100 for a solution to a $10 problem. And sometimes you build it and it's the best solution nobody's heard about.
real world <-- investigate, analyze --> problems
problems <-- design, build, test --> solutions
solutions <-- communicate, distribute --> real world
I've written a lot of good code that went to naught not because there was anything wrong with it, but because it wasn't actually solving real world problems. And you can of course blame the spec or that the user is holding it wrong, but at the end of the day it just isn't providing value. So I try to go beyond what they teach in STEM classes and work on what's the user really trying to achieve and can I deliver on that. Or maybe it's just in-house what the business analyst wants or the way the architect or development team wants to build things but there's hardly any position where you don't need those skills.
I have this person at work in mind, no doubt he's very bright but he's also quite terrible at talking to people in a way they can understand. Even for an IT person it becomes an incoherent rant of technical details, niche concepts and proscribing solutions instead of explaining them. Meanwhile I pushed through a good technical change recently asking "What if the person changes his mind?" because the proposed solution failed to take that into account. That I pointed out how we'd already solved this other places helped, of course. But if nobody pays attention, we're going to reinvent the wheel and poorly, over and over again.

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Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Re:It is all a rat race by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 10:32 · Score: 0

It's not always marketings fault. For example I know plenty of brilliant "engineers" who don't understand why global memory is a bad thing.
Global memory is not necessarily a bad thing. I'm not sure quite why you use that as an example of a great engineer. Global memory allows loosely coupled producer consumer models that outperform pretty much any other solution. You don't even need locks if you are careful in what your doing. Of course, even here, it is generally not truly global, but limited to one application. Sure, it adds risks, since interactions can be complex and hard to debug, but if you need the flexibility and performance and are willing to pay for it, then it is a valid solution.
Now using global memory everywhere needlessly is generally bad. If for instance you are interfacing C# and C and doing nothing particularly interesting in either one, just accept the marshalling overhead and move on. It will make debugging and maintaining easier.
Engineering is about solving problems within constraints. It is not about ignoring a possible solution because it isn't what is "ideal."
Re:It is all a rat race by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 10:37 · Score: 0

I'm no fan of facebook (don't even have an account), but there's a possibility that what drives Zuckerberg *now* is not money but some altruism towards all man kind. No matter what happens, he's likely to die a billionare, so now the question is whether he's trying to do something worthwhile with his life? Plenty of rich people come and go, will he be one of those that makes no difference to the human race?
Re:It is all a rat race by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 10:45 · Score: 1

Dunno about pushing mankind to its outer limits, but the apps that Facebook engineers write push my phone batter to its outer limits
Re:It is all a rat race by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 10:47 · Score: 0

Note that even with the previous, the use of global variables should be limited in scope. The producer with potentially many consumers model mentioned works well, but the only data global is the data flowing between the producer and the multiple potential destinations. They work well in the simple case since the producer can just keep throwing things into a circular buffer and doesn't care when or if they are ever read. It just increments a U64 and keeps doing its thing. The consumer(s) don't care about the producer, other than knowing if they get too far behind where they must drop data, because the producer has overwritten it. They just remove items one at a time and keep track of where they are. They only look at the actual buffer and that U64 the producer is incrementing, which is strictly increasing. It is this kind of design that just thrives in a multi-threaded environment. Variations can even make the producer pause till all the consumers catch up, though if one isn't careful, then locking will eventually be needed.
Configuration and all the rest of the universe is generally not global. Use them when appropriate, but only when appropriate.
Re:It is all a rat race by BronsCon · 2016-03-20 12:09 · Score: 1

You know what will end that? If we do it. If we just stop contributing and make 1/3 of the world's population do all the work to support the whole. Suddenly, we'll be allowed to contribute again. Or, just do what most of us do, be a damn adult and realize that the demands of a relatively few highly vocal idiots would lead to the destruction of society, ignore them, and carry on as always. Let them learn that they have to be willing to contribute something worthwhile in order for their contribution to be accepted; most of the minority population has realized this already and they contribute what they can, it is only the vocal few who have nothing more to contribute than their loud mouths who aren't contributing in any useful or meaningful way.

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APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Re:It is all a rat race by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 12:19 · Score: 0

how many of us have actually made a product 1+ billion "real people in the real world" use
Given how facebook counts their users, it could be pretty much anyone who has ever written anything more complicated than a "Hello World!" program.
Re:It is all a rat race by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 13:01 · Score: 0

> my phone batter
You're doing it wrong.
Re:It is all a rat race by Ol+Olsoc · 2016-03-20 13:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

Yeah, the crap about "pushing mankind to its outer limits" is hard to read. Is that really what engineering does?
Well a little. But I don near shit myself when includedn in the quote was "The impact of engineers goes well beyond the mobile apps, the gadgets,
Because yeh - once upon a time we went to the moon, using simple computers and slide rules. That's pressing the limits.
Now pressing the limits is writing apps. http://img.memecdn.com/Cutting...

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The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Re:It is all a rat race by Darinbob · 2016-03-20 15:21 · Score: 2

1) Never trust an executive to tell what makes a great engineer. 2) Never let anyone at Facebook tell you what makes a great engineer.
Re:It is all a rat race by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 15:48 · Score: 0

Yeah. How many times do we have to tell you that you're supposed to steam your phone with rice, not deep fry it.
Re:It is all a rat race by davester666 · 2016-03-20 17:31 · Score: 1

Yeah, he's looking for sociopaths.
It's mainly about "which group of poor people have we not yet started to get money from, either directly or indirectly, preferably both"

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Re:It is all a rat race by Cederic · 2016-03-20 23:45 · Score: 1

That's a facilitator failure though.
It's easy to run workshops where introverts get to contribute too - and brainstorming sessions are included in that.
A good manager will also use a range of mechanisms to get input from across the team, and understand which approaches work best with each team member.
Re:It is all a rat race by Aighearach · 2016-03-21 04:25 · Score: 1

Those are well established, middle limits.
People whose child-rearing pushed them outside humanity's limits... usually all died.
You end up totally insane, but that is the expected outcome.
Re:It is all a rat race by Aighearach · 2016-03-21 04:58 · Score: 1

Going to the moon didn't press any limits. Sending humans to orbit did. But the moon part was a fancy vicarious vacation for the masses, a feat of pure engineering.
The Wright Brothers pressed more limits with their flights than we did going to moon. Going to the moon was done carefully, with a lot of money, and a boatload of engineers calculating all the limits before taking actions to prevent going beyond any of them.
I'd say Gandhi pressed the limits more than the moon shot. They stood up and tested the limits, found many of them.
Not sure why you would link a site with "meme" in the name as support for your claim that writing apps is seen as "pressing the limits."
I'll make a medium-term prediction, though: the limits of humanity's ability to live on the ocean will be tested and pushed back as the sea level rises over the next few decades.
Re:It is all a rat race by Aighearach · 2016-03-21 05:03 · Score: 1

It seems highly more probable that they're interested in receiving money from people who have more of it, not people with less. The poor already glue themselves to facebook and provide advertising revenue... and that is all they can provide.
The rich don't have nearly the same facebook uptake. They're more likely to hire somebody to do it for them then actually submit themselves to it directly. Maybe that is what the droid meant; pushing beyond the current limits of consumer demographics!
Re:It is all a rat race by Ol+Olsoc · 2016-03-21 05:46 · Score: 1

Going to the moon didn't press any limits.
I'm not certain I understand. It sounds like you are saying making Candy Crush Saga is the equivalent of going to the moon.

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The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Re:It is all a rat race by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-21 06:20 · Score: 0

>Going to the moon didn't press any limits.
Very easy to say in retrospect, 40+ years later when SW does't run from ropes of magnetic cores and there's more compute power in a cheap watch then in the entire Apollo stack.
Going to the moon damn near failed twice: Apollo 11 just about crash-landed at fuel exhaustion (unspoken from Armstrong until later was that no way in hell was flying back out; he was going to put that lander down SOMEWHERE) and Apollo 13. Apollo 12 got hit by lightning twice on the way up; that damn near fried their entire electrical system: only shifting the signal conditioning circuitry to the backup kept us from having a semi-permanent monument to NASA failure in near-Earth orbit ("Try SCE to Aux").
Not to mention that we killed three people trying: the Apollo 1 fire killed some of my boyhood heroes, Grissom, Chaffee, and White.
Pressing limits enough for you? Or is death not a limit for you?
Apollo was the most marginal of all the mission types (greater distance, longer time, more "moving parts"), but all were at the extreme limits of then-SOTA technology.
"The systems were heavily loaded, the margins were slim." - Neil Armstrong
Re:It is all a rat race by Ol+Olsoc · 2016-03-21 07:30 · Score: 1

>Going to the moon didn't press any limits.
Very easy to say in retrospect, 40+ years later when SW does't run from ropes of magnetic cores and there's more compute power in a cheap watch then in the entire Apollo stack.
If poster could look up from his apps for a second, maybe go down to Kennedy Space center, and see just what they did at the time - and in truth are still doing, it might possibly impress him enough that he wouldn't think that Candy Crush is the epitome of humankind. That apps somehow are moving humanity toward a bright new future.
If that sounds sarcastic - yup - it was meant to. That the F1 rocket engine was designed and built when it was, using the incredibly primitive design tools of the day, ranks among mankind's greatest achievements, like it or not.
But today, Facebook and Twitter are the crowning acheivement of humanity.
No, no - they are not. Not even remotely, its the small minded success of small minded people. There is a whole world - nay - a whole universe out there, both beautiful and fascinating, if only we'd look up from the stupid gaddamned phone for a moment.

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The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Re:It is all a rat race by Aighearach · 2016-03-21 08:08 · Score: 1

Right, that is because you took part of what I said, added on something totally absurd that is in the opposite direction than my comments were going, and found that the thing I said, plus the thing I didn't say that you added, don't make any sense together.
That should have told you not to add in crap about what I assume is a mobile game.
If you haven't yet comprehended my point, it might be premature to try to expand it. ;)
Re:It is all a rat race by Aighearach · 2016-03-21 08:11 · Score: 1

Just assume I know what the space race was. I wasn't born yesterday, unlike you. (check your user id kiddo)
You can't imagine that people's opinions are their opinions. You have to imagine that if I only knew what you knew, I'd just change my mind. Well, maybe that oversteps what you can know, eh?
Instead of talking about apps, which is all you, you could simply continue parsing my comments until they make sense. If it sounds like something that makes no sense, you simply did not yet apply the literal word meanings for which the statements are reasonable. That is all you. If you have questions, ask reasoned questions. If you don't ask questions, and don't understand... no need to project stuff about apps.
Re:It is all a rat race by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-21 11:31 · Score: 0

It's all feel good marketing pablum. It's just another way to put a happy face on pushing engineers even harder to create profit at the expense of their life force. Period.
Re:It is all a rat race by Ol+Olsoc · 2016-03-21 12:36 · Score: 1

Right, that is because you took part of what I said, added on something totally absurd that is in the opposite direction than my comments were going, and found that the thing I said, plus the thing I didn't say that you added, don't make any sense together.
That should have told you not to add in crap about what I assume is a mobile game.
If you haven't yet comprehended my point, it might be premature to try to expand it. ;)
I comprehend much. I also comprehend what the Facebook woman said. I fully comprehend what you wrote.
What I really really disagree with you on is your completely wrong idea that going to the moon did not press any limits. A response like you made deserves at the very least an incredulous response, sarcasm is just as good though.
To be brutally honest, your idea that going to the moon wasn't pressing the limits isn't only not even wrong, it is clueless. I am firmly convinced that you are completely clueless. There's no sarcasm, but opinion based upon experience. I might be wrong, but I didn't make the idiotic statement in the first place.
So I responded mocking you for your stupidity. Sometimes it is kinder to be sarcastic than call a person out like I am now. And exactly what I would expect from people who stare at their phones all day long. Hence my sarcastic reaction. And you have the unmitigated nerve coupled with large doses of duh to question my powers of comprehension? You are reaching the bottom of the whoosh barrel, my dear fellow. Redeem yourself if you can, what do you think presses the outer limits of mankind?

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The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Re:It is all a rat race by Aighearach · 2016-03-21 16:54 · Score: 1

See, you go way off the rails. You imply you didn't understand, because instead of just saying you disagree, you say it is "clueless."
That is an explicit statement of not comprehending the reasons for what you're disagreeing with.
It may be that there is a fundamentally subjective question here; having a different opinion is good. Everybody can have an opinion. But claiming other opinions are "wrong" or "clueless" is pretty much the only way for you to be factually wrong in a subjective judgment. ;)
All that it would take to get from my opinion to yours, if you take out the pejorative nonsense, is to be less easily impressed by raw engineering. Not everybody is impressed by a bridge that is merely longer or taller than other bridges, but uses the same design.
It should be pretty obvious what my (perfectly reasonable) opinion was when I said that getting humans into orbit was impressive, but going to the moon wasn't. The moon is just a location in orbit with good television optics. It didn't use new rocket concepts; it used bigger rockets. That was the whole point; to get good at the known engineering problems of big rockets. Building a niche industry is great and all that, but it doesn't necessarily expand humanity's limits.
The "stupidity" stuff I have to say is rather "stupid."

H1b and the will to work 80 hours a week by Joe_Dragon · 2016-03-20 08:22 · Score: 4, Insightful

H1b and the will to work 80 hours a week is what they really want.

Another exec pumping "leadership" by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 08:23 · Score: 0

I keep hearing this mantra over and over, but it is mostly false and mostly pressed by execs of organizations that produce nothing of their own but rather slap a label
On the hard work of others. Because it is difficult to find people willing to endure difficult degree programs in STEM and then turn around to do nothing or just program management, these execs xo tongue to spread their BS in order to encourage suckers.

Managerial engineering. by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 08:23 · Score: 0

So basically [manager]+[engineer]=???

Re: Managerial engineering. by BarbaraHudson · 2016-03-20 10:16 · Score: 1

Managerial engineering is another way to say a cattle prod, a rolled up carpet, a couple of bags of lime and 2 shovels.

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"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.

"protecting" 1.6 billion people? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 08:24 · Score: 1

"protecting" 1.6 billion people? from what exactly?

remember when this was "news for nerds"? reads more like "news for social studies majors". and it isn't even SJW friday.

c'mon slashdot!

Re: "protecting" 1.6 billion people? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 08:35 · Score: 1, Insightful

and it isn't even SJW friday.
The anti-SJW crowd sure is a more whining attention seaking bunch, at every opportunity relevant or not, than the SJWs they are so angry at.
Re: "protecting" 1.6 billion people? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:20 · Score: 0

I'm not really found of hate groups oppressing other peoples 1st amendment rights.
But hey, I was taught to respect other points of view, even if I don't agree with em.
Re: "protecting" 1.6 billion people? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:32 · Score: 0

SJWs don't have opinions. They have bullshit masquerading as opinions. Your attempt to pretend SJWs are the "good guys" and that everyone else are the ones trying to plug their ears has failed miserably.

Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 08:25 · Score: 1

Translation: My company is built on unicorn dust and bullshit, so your technical skills are worth squat to me; Call a stylist.

Facebook by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 08:28 · Score: 1

What on earth does Facebook "engineer"? Web pages?

Re:Facebook by __aaclcg7560 · 2016-03-20 08:48 · Score: 1

Someone has to feed and take care of all those hamsters running the servers.
Re:Facebook by dgatwood · 2016-03-20 15:52 · Score: 1

Hence, the giant robot army. And, of course, building a giant robot army that is capable of feeding and caring for hamsters is a particularly brutal technical challenge, which is why Facebook has such a hard time finding qualified engineers.
Or maybe it's just because the commute to Menlo Park is unholy from pretty much everywhere. Either way.

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Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Re:Facebook by ThunderBird89 · 2016-03-20 21:13 · Score: 2

Have you ever used ReactJS? That's being developed by Facebook in the majority.
Then there's a lot of graph theory being applied to your network connections to determine who are you likely to know. A lot of analysis of your browsing habits on FB (and off it, admittedly) to determine what ads you are likely to click on and what pages/communities you may be interested in.
Like it or not, Facebook is doing a LOT of research to keep itself relevant, both in engineering and in the minds of people.

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Hyperbole: I use it liberally!
Re:Facebook by Cederic · 2016-03-21 00:19 · Score: 2, Insightful

I don't even use Facebook but it's easy to admire their engineering.
To be fair, it's about all I do admire.
But scaling a website to a billion users a day, 8 billion video views a day, however hundreds of billions of ads served per day - and bear in mind they calculate which ad to serve to each user.
That's some pretty solid engineering.

Really people? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 08:30 · Score: 1

... it's about making amazing solutions for real people in the real world."

Define "Amazing solutions"? It sure as hell isn't anything Facebook has to offer.

It's about pushing mankind to its outer limits by inspiring the world to imagine bigger solutions than our hands can hold.

Nonsense that can be interpreted subjectively. By using that "benchmark", I could use it to turn away anyone I want. Sorry old guy (40 something) but you didn't " imagine bigger solutions than our hands can hold". Same for you miss, your solution isn't "big enough".

The capricious reasons that employers come up with to screen people out is just getting out of hand. I guess they have to do that in order to not be considered liars when they say "we can't get enough qualified people."

Not just math and science, sure by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 08:31 · Score: 1

You also need the ability to say no, a bullshit detector, and enough people skills to explain to someone that their idea is terrible and will have terrible consequences without causing them to lose face.

Meaningful solutions? by Viol8 · 2016-03-20 08:32 · Score: 1

Wake me up when Facebook does something meaningful rather than yet more social media tat and BS using code that could have been written by an undergraduate.

Re:Meaningful solutions? by whh3 · 2016-03-20 09:29 · Score: 1

Knock knock. Time to get up.
I may not use their service and I may absolutely, 100% completely disagree with the way that they hijack privacy to make money, but they are definitely doing interesting CS and engineering.

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Insightful by El_Muerte_TDS · 2016-03-20 08:33 · Score: 5, Funny

And that's why she earns the big bucks. Because she's the one with this insightful knowledge which no one ever though about before.

Re:Insightful by Tablizer · 2016-03-20 18:36 · Score: 3, Insightful

And that's why she earns the big bucks. Because she's the one with this insightful knowledge which no one ever though about before.
No, she earns the big bucks because she can make her bosses think it's insightful.
The corporate world is the Art of Bullshitting. In other words, she's a Bullshit Engineer (at least for this article).

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Table-ized A.I.

Okay, it's an old one but here it is by willoughby · 2016-03-20 08:34 · Score: 1

Every engineer has five senses:
sight
hearing
touch
smell
taste

Every great engineer has two additional senses
horse
common

Re:Okay, it's an old one but here it is by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 10:00 · Score: 0

An old guy (now long long retired) that I worked with at NASA once told me that they'd done a study as to who makes the best engineers and he told me that it was people who grew up on farms tinkering with machinery, rebuilding tractors and water pumps.
I can't say how many times I got into trouble for taking apart radios or clocks or vacuum cleaners when I was a kid. A lot of times when I was very young, I'd watch my dad take apart something and once asked him if he had instructions on how to fix something to which he replied, no you just look at it and see how it is put together. We built all kinds of things together.
Re:Okay, it's an old one but here it is by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 10:20 · Score: 0

What is the difference between common and horse sense?
When I look it up, it looks like horse sense is interchangeable with common sense. When searching for the difference, google fails to locate trustworthy sources and those it does find all have unique answers, as in both identical and different and not two use the same reason for the answer, most of them without any reason or source for the answer at all, it just is because I say so (which as we all know is the greatest argument ever). I wonder if the answer to the question is undefined.
Re:Okay, it's an old one but here it is by dgatwood · 2016-03-20 16:20 · Score: 1

I can't say how many times I got into trouble for taking apart radios or clocks or vacuum cleaners when I was a kid. A lot of times when I was very young, I'd watch my dad take apart something and once asked him if he had instructions on how to fix something to which he replied, no you just look at it and see how it is put together. We built all kinds of things together.
I terrified the folks at my nursery school by taking apart and putting back together rotary-dial phones. Sometimes, I even fixed them. I don't think it has anything to do with whether people actually tinkered, though. I think that's just a symptom of an underlying curiosity about how things work. People who have that curiosity—we'll call it "the knack"—are inherently drawn to engineering, and tend to be good at it.

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Re:Okay, it's an old one but here it is by KGIII · 2016-03-20 16:25 · Score: 1

I doubt it has a formal answer. Commonsense is that which everyone should know. Horse sense is that which certain people, probably in a specific area, would have (or should have) learned through experience.
That's just my interpretation. It's not authoritative but it is so because I said it is so! ;-) (After all, it's commonsense.)

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"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Re:Okay, it's an old one but here it is by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 20:29 · Score: 0

I thought the horse sense is from a saying similar to bull ... or horse ... something.
Re:Okay, it's an old one but here it is by KGIII · 2016-03-20 20:59 · Score: 2

I went and found this:
http://www.phrases.org.uk/mean...
I am, by no means, an authority on the subject. I didn't even read all of the page. It just seems to be the better of the few - others listed it and had some usage. That one gets into where it comes from - or where they claim it comes from. Buggered if I know, buggered if I am an authority.
It's up to you, I suppose, as to what you believe. Horses do things like take you home when you're drunk. I figured it came from there and things like that - things learned in experience. I'd never heard it used as a pejorative. My linguistic capacity is mere grunts and occasional pointing. Any of my utterances making sense is entirely incidental and orthogonal to intent. You'd probably get better etymology information from a trained monkey than you will from me.
But, that's how I understand it and how I've seen it used. The validity of that use is subject to debate, a debate for which I am unqualified, and I can only share how I've witnessed the usage and interpreted said usage. ;-)

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"So long and thanks for all the fish."

News flash by Kohath · 2016-03-20 08:37 · Score: 1

Being good at math doesn't help you build UIs at Facebook. But there's more to engineering than building UIs.

Math guys need UI guys and UI guys need math guys. What we don't need is more false nonsense about how one is "better" or more necessary than the other.

Re:News flash by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 14:10 · Score: 0

We don't need UI guys to get to the moon. We do need math guys to get to the moon.
Re:News flash by Kohath · 2016-03-21 03:01 · Score: 1

You aren't going to the moon. No one goes there. There's no reason for them to go there.

Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 08:37 · Score: 1

For it to work like that, the suits would have to listen to the engineers. In reality there is always a sweet spot for getting into a new technology: Shortly after mass-market availability: After the early kinks have been eliminated, before the quality has been lowered to the minimum that creates the most profit. It's so fitting that a Facebook exec would spout that bullshit: Engineers gave us the Internet. The suits are turning it into Facebook.

What the hell ... by Rudisaurus · 2016-03-20 08:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

... would Facebook know about "real solutions for real people"? It's a frickin' social network, fer Chrissake! What exactly do they produce? What particular problems do they address? How is mankind's lot significantly improved by the presence of Facebook?

Signed,
an engineer

--
licet differant, aequabitur

Re:What the hell ... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:27 · Score: 0

What exactly do they produce?
Libraries for a language that is only as popular as it is because it is the only option.
Re:What the hell ... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:34 · Score: 0

Thought experiment: Take your post, and run the following transformations:
s/Facebook/Porsche/g
s/Facebook/Google/g
s/Facebook/Tesla Motors/g
s/Facebook/Hyperloop/g
Then explain to me how your argument is meaningful, except in exposing the particular biases and subjective preferences you think are important?
If nothing else, Facebook is pushing the boundaries of massive scale, where there are incredibly complex and interesting problems to solve, all of which can have extremely broad implications throughout the software world.
That *you* don't happen to like their products is not a clear measure of their lack of value.
Re:What the hell ... by Lurks · 2016-03-20 09:40 · Score: 3, Interesting

> ... would Facebook know about "real solutions for real people"?
In fact, more than virtually any other company in the world, excepting perhaps Microsoft.
> What exactly do they produce? What particular problems do they address? How is mankind's lot significantly improved by the presence of Facebook?
They produce a social network. There are many problems that these address. Sure, from your point of view, people post cat baby photos. Around the world Facebook is virtually the Internet, because it provides the means to connect with a social graph of people in similar circumstances. The breadth of communities, NGOs and government agencies worldwide that use Facebook groups to communicate with small communities, where there exists no infrastructure to build and publicise traditional web sites, is beyond large. Today I fly out to the rural mountains of Taiwan where I will be working with the Taiwanese indiginous people to document their own language. They face a great many difficulties but the various tribes have been able to pull together to share information, organise events, publicise their political struggles, all via Facebook and mobile networks (another great engineering achievement, which presumably you actually rate?)
Signed,
Also an engineer (one who develops solutions for people outside of the rich white-anglosphere).
Re:What the hell ... by DerekLyons · 2016-03-20 10:49 · Score: 4, Interesting
How is mankind's lot significantly improved by the presence of Facebook?
Let's see what I've accomplished on Facebook today...
- - Corresponded with my sister on a medieval recipe recreation we're both working on.
- - Took part in a discussion in a group dedicated to Food and Society on the relationship between geography and food choices.
- - Helped someone in the KSP group with the design of a new lifter.
- - Voted on the anime we'll be watching at next month's meeting of our local anime club.
- - Helped a fellow photographer troubleshoot a problem he had in processing an image.
- - Commented on a restaurant review in a group about local restaurants. (The reviewer had gotten the hours wrong.)
- - Commented on an analysis of SpaceX's landing attempts that was posted to a group dedicated to discussion of space related businesses.
- - Helped someone new to our local SCA branch hook up with the local expert on a topic he's interested in.
All that - and it's only quarter to four in the afternoon on a slow Sunday.
You may not find communicating with your fellows useful, but I certainly do. Contrary to the ignorant and idiotic position often seen here on /. (and one continues to be held in defiance of repeated corrections on the matter), there's a lot more to Facebook than playing Farmville and posting inane photographs.
Re:What the hell ... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 12:06 · Score: 0

or people outside of the rich white-anglosphere
What, so only white people live in the so-called "anglosphere" now? Fuck you, racist piece of shit. Come up out of your basement sometime.
Re: What the hell ... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 16:37 · Score: 0

Someone watches too many movies. Enjoy your flight and documenting. Stop pretending you are an engineer
Re: What the hell ... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 16:40 · Score: 0

You are wasting your day away. Get off the internet and start living.
Re:What the hell ... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 22:04 · Score: 1

All of those are things that people did before Facebook somewhere else. Like newsgroups first and then forums later. And at least personally I still find the forum's format a lot better than FB for discussions like these.
Re:What the hell ... by dywolf · 2016-03-20 23:57 · Score: 1

she doesn't want an engineer.
she wants an ad executive who can spin BS out of thin air.
people like her are why 'sales engineer' is a thing.

--
The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
Re: What the hell ... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-21 02:10 · Score: 0

Based on his interests, spending all day on Facebook would be a step up.
Re:What the hell ... by jbmartin6 · 2016-03-21 02:36 · Score: 1

Thanks goodness my life isn't subject to your opinion as to what is useful. Civilization depends on people having different preferences and priorities.

--
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
Re:What the hell ... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-21 06:39 · Score: 0

>Like newsgroups first and then forums later
and on them, nobody is monetizing your life by selling you and your data to whomever they want to.
Re:What the hell ... by Rudisaurus · 2016-03-21 11:25 · Score: 1

You gave me a reasoned and thoughtful reply, so I'll give you one in turn.

Facebook is a microscopically thin veneer sitting atop the infrastructure that we call the internet. There is nothing that they provide that cannot be accomplished in any number of other ways and with other tools. In fact, many people communicate, network, exchange information and ideas, document their history and enterprises, and carry on social networking very well without Facebook at all. Remember email? Works brilliantly. That's why it's still around. For those times when you want a whole group participating in a discussion, a BBS (e.g. Google Groups) works very well. You don't need Facebook for any of it!

I'm not arguing against the value of social networking -- although very few, if any, people will die tomorrow if Facebook vanishes from existence. The kind of engineering I'm talking about and the kind of engineering that real engineers talk about is the kind where work is checked and rechecked because actual lives are at stake if someone makes a mistake. That's why I take issue with the inflated self-importance of Facebook's grandiose announcement.

Cheers

--
licet differant, aequabitur
Re:What the hell ... by Rudisaurus · 2016-03-21 11:34 · Score: 1

Civilization depends on people putting food on your table, a roof over your head, clothing on your back, and transporting you safely from place to place. That kind of stuff is hard. People used to die trying to get it done -- and still do, sometimes. That's what real engineering is about, not the kind of fluff that self-aggrandizing Facebook is trying to sell you. That's why "sales engineer" or "support engineer" aren't disciplines recognized by any professional engineering association anywhere.

I absolutely respect your preferences and priorities. But ask yourself: will you die if they vanish tomorrow?

--
licet differant, aequabitur
Re:What the hell ... by Rudisaurus · 2016-03-21 11:46 · Score: 1

You make it sound as if Facebook invented group communication. Judging by your /. ID, you've been around at least as long as I have -- or well before the internet, so you must be well aware that there are any number of other ways to accomplish exactly what you carried out on your busy Sunday afternoon equally well. Oh, I get it: it's just so much more convenient doing it all in Facebook. Fine, but don't try to pretend that there's nothing else and no other way. So the whole "quest to engineer meaningful solutions... is not just about math and science, it's about making amazing solutions for real people in the real world. It's about pushing mankind to its outer limits by inspiring the world to imagine bigger solutions than our hands can hold" is just so much meaningless nauseating babble.

--
licet differant, aequabitur
Re:What the hell ... by jbmartin6 · 2016-03-21 11:48 · Score: 1

No, nor would I die if my car, television, iPod, computers, etc. all vanished tomorrow. So your point seems a bit vague. People managed to eat and find shelter long before we had civilization, your implication not nothing else has any value is, if you will pardon the phrase, most uncivilized.

--
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
Re:What the hell ... by Rudisaurus · 2016-03-21 12:37 · Score: 1

Depends on the context, doesn't it? I've never suggested that nothing else has any value, and if you think that, I suggest you go back and reread what was written. I have asserted that there are questions of priority and significance and that cat videos come fairly low on the totem pole. You are, of course, within your rights to disagree.

--
licet differant, aequabitur
Re:What the hell ... by DerekLyons · 2016-03-21 12:43 · Score: 1

You make it sound as if Facebook invented group communication.
Only if you're a clueless idiot with an axe to grind.

Judging by your /. ID, you've been around at least as long as I have -- or well before the internet, so you must be well aware that there are any number of other ways to accomplish exactly what you carried out on your busy Sunday afternoon equally well. Oh, I get it: it's just so much more convenient doing it all in Facebook. Fine, but don't try to pretend that there's nothing else and no other way.
Not being a clueless idiot, yes, I am quite aware that there any number of ways - almost none of them with the simple utility and clear UI that Facebook offers. And certainly none of them offering the diversity on a single site that Facebook offers. Nor did I ever pretend there weren't other ways - you asked what Facebook provided and I answered.

So the whole "quest to engineer meaningful solutions... is not just about math and science, it's about making amazing solutions for real people in the real world. It's about pushing mankind to its outer limits by inspiring the world to imagine bigger solutions than our hands can hold" is just so much meaningless nauseating babble.
I can easily see how a clueless idiot with an axe to grind could believe that.
Re:What the hell ... by Rudisaurus · 2016-03-21 17:29 · Score: 1

OK, well,I thought I possibly might be communicating with someone of some intelligence. Now I understand that you're just an asshole. Your years have taught you very little, I see. You can go back to flogging Facebook with your free hand now.

--
licet differant, aequabitur
Re:What the hell ... by Rudisaurus · 2016-03-21 19:14 · Score: 1

Hey Derek, here's some of the groundbreaking, really cutting edge "amazing solutions for real people in the real world" that Facebook has been working on lately:

Facebook explains that it is totally not doing racial profiling

I completely get why you're so turgid about them.

--
licet differant, aequabitur

Facebook? by klapek · 2016-03-20 08:46 · Score: 1

After having worked with facebook's API for a while I have really strong objections against them telling what it means to be a great engineer. Facebook is a mess. (However, their js solutions are quite neat)

Facebook offering engineering advice? by JoeyRox · 2016-03-20 08:47 · Score: 1

That's like Briebart running a seminar on ethics in journalism.

Yes, but... by Raenex · 2016-03-20 08:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

Facebook's Regina Wallace-Jones, who is in charge of protecting 1.6 billion people on the social network

Who's in charge of protecting 1.6 billion people from the social network?

Re:Yes, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 10:02 · Score: 0

You mean 7 billion. Facebook does not limit its abuse to only those that signed up to be abused.
Re:Yes, but... by Beerdood · 2016-03-21 04:12 · Score: 1

Help! Help! A giant social network monster is attacking me! It's asking me if I want to join, and it's eaten most of my friends! Ahhhhhh, not my metadata! Now it knows I like cats and anime! That could be used to *gasp* send me targeted ads one day!

--
Global warming and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking number of pirates - Gospel of the FSM
Re:Yes, but... by Raenex · 2016-03-21 05:07 · Score: 1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
I know, some people don't mind living in a fishbowl. "If you've got nothing to hide, blah blah." Even if it was just ads, it would still bother me. But you've also got employers, insurers, and government poking their noses around too.

This... by fyngyrz · 2016-03-20 08:53 · Score: 5, Insightful

The quest to engineer meaningful solutions

This... coming from Facebook... is just about the funniest thing I've seen in several days.

"meaningful"

Ah ha.

Ha ha ha ha. :)

--
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.

Re:This... by AmiMoJo · 2016-03-20 10:16 · Score: 1, Insightful

This thread proves them right. Real engineers like us (I include myself) would never have built Facebook. We would have balked at the privacy issues, thought the whole thing was trivial and stupid. We would have avoided the buzzword bullshit that somehow has grown it into a network with a billion users.
Like it or not, a lot of prior like Facebook and the fact that we can't see the attraction is why we aren't billionaires or front end developers at their company.

--
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Re: This... by fyngyrz · 2016-03-20 10:29 · Score: 4, Insightful

Billionaire != meaningful.

--
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Re: This... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 10:52 · Score: 0

to you maybe, but to the billion or so users it is meaningful to a greater or lesser degree.
I have tracked down some old school friends who had shifted country and their parents are dead. It was quick and easy.
Yes there are other ways, but they could have taken days/weeks/months instead of a few minutes.
Facebook in 2010 had over 60,000 servers, accounted for about 8% of the worlds internet traffic and 1 trillion page views each month.
No matter what you think of Facebook , its still good engineering from a server farm, hardware, software POV.
Re:This... by epyT-R · 2016-03-20 14:22 · Score: 2

Well, not quite.
Engineers focus on the details of how. This requires a certain outlook that eschews emotional appeal. Reality doesn't care about what we want to work. In contrast, most people are so wrapped up in wanting what they want to have a shot at implementing it. Big dreamers can catalyze, but they often have trouble with details, especially technical ones. Rare is the person who can do both, but even then there are limits. Zuckerberg started the site, but he couldn't grow it to where it is now alone. Same thing with Gates and microsoft. When was the last time either of them touched code that went into a final product? I am not sure, but it was probably long ago.
There's a reason why few expected good temperament from engineers. Their minds were different, world focused rather than people focused. Often, this led them down paths of conforming reality to suit the emotional ideals of those in charge. It was hard, often stressful, work. This hasn't changed. The only difference is that the relatively recent cultural embrace of emotion over reason now expects engineers to be hypersocial, too. In my experience, the best engineers are NOT and I doubt this will change. The result is loss of engineering talent for the sake of feelings as these engineers are replaced with less able people who are more socially sensitive. Too bad. Society suffers every time someone is chosen (or not) because of irrelevant attributes.
Facebook is an example of appealing to and encouraging the sharp increase in narcissistic tendencies in the culture. I'll bet that the 'front end' developers at facebook likely don't give a shit beyond their large paychecks.
Re:This... by Darinbob · 2016-03-20 15:24 · Score: 1

People like us would never have built Facebook, because Facebook is a silly idea. Sure, it's a silly idea that makes money but it's still a silly idea. Getting rich is not the same as providing something of benefit to the human race, no matter how much the rich execs try to tell engineers that making money is the only goal out there.
Re: This... by drinkypoo · 2016-03-21 00:25 · Score: 3, Insightful

Billionaire != meaningful.
Strongly disagree. If you are a billionaire you will have more influence over the lives of others than someone who is not. How is that not meaningful? It doesn't make the meaning positive.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:This... by Aighearach · 2016-03-21 04:19 · Score: 1

From an engineering perspective, the main problem that facebook solves is "keeping in touch with people you knew when you were in school."
When they launched, myspace was already solving that problem.
And the technical side of it is trivial; it is just a website with basic features. Nothing to solve, only stuff to implement.
The privacy issues are irrelevant. That is a concern for the user, not the builder.
Re:This... by Aighearach · 2016-03-21 04:22 · Score: 1

Well, I just want to stand up and say, "I've worked on silly projects too."
Am I the only one who made money on checking for "Y2K" bugs?
I'd make a silly website right now if somebody wanted to pay the right amount for it.
Re:This... by AmiMoJo · 2016-03-21 05:14 · Score: 1, Interesting

Engineers focus on the details of how. This requires a certain outlook that eschews emotional appeal.
No, it really is the exact opposite. To be a successful engineer you need to know not only the technical stuff, but to understand how people will use and even feel about your products. It's always been that way, it's not really new. Engine designers have been considering the tone of the exhaust system since at least the 50s, probably before.
Often it's the engineers job to understand not only when a requested feature is technically impossible, but when users will react badly to it.

--
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Re:This... by Darinbob · 2016-03-21 06:00 · Score: 1

Peter Gibbons, is that you?
Re:This... by Grishnakh · 2016-03-21 06:58 · Score: 1

This is why engineers need to build some offworld colonies so we can start a new society where reason is more valued than narcissism and we don't have to deal with emotional idiots electing sociopathic politicians.
Re:This... by Aighearach · 2016-03-21 08:12 · Score: 1

Derpy derp, derp derp derp?
I presume that is some guy you like to bully, try it my face bullyboy.
Re:This... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-21 08:23 · Score: 0

Nope, the hero of the Office Space movie, where they work at a company doing Y2K fixing.
Re: This... by fyngyrz · 2016-03-23 04:45 · Score: 1

No. If you are a billionaire or millionaire, you may be able to exert such influence. Doesn't mean you will. Even some that choose to try, fail.
"Meaningful" is one of those words that can carry import of a particular type to one person, and quite another to the next.
I would speculate that "consequential" might be more what you're thinking of. Consequences are the inevitable result of actions. Meaning... not.

--
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.

Proof nobody reads the article by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:02 · Score: 0

Everyone saw "Facebook" and started Facebook bashing but had they read the article they would have noticed it's about a female engineer and started would have started complaining about SJW articles.

nice article by mohamedosama87 · 2016-03-20 09:02 · Score: 0

very nice article thanks

--
i'm writer on: http://www.creati-ve.com/

Re:SJW crapola by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:04 · Score: 1, Insightful

Or your a white guy who isn't as good as he thinks he is at his profession. Given the your rant, I suspect this is exactly the case.

Hint, not being an asshole goes a long way towards landing a job. Also a bath.

Facebook does engineering? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:05 · Score: 0

Color me surprised. I thought Facebook was company mostly of software developers and network administrators. Engineers build bridges and airplanes.

Re: Facebook does engineering? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:26 · Score: 0

They have a few custodial engineers I bet.
Re:Facebook does engineering? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:32 · Score: 0

I thought engineers drove trains.
Re:Facebook does engineering? by russotto · 2016-03-21 00:20 · Score: 1

Bridges and airplanes? Engineers drive trains and run steam plants.

Only by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:06 · Score: 0

Only a person who was already paid and wasn't actually developing anything would say that.

It's about being paid in Rupees! by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:08 · Score: 0

small amounts of reupees....

Don't confuse necessary but not sufficient by karlandtanya · 2016-03-20 09:08 · Score: 1

with not necessary.
You gotta have the skills to do the job.

And if you look around for two seconds you'll also see that technical skills alone can be sufficient--in sufficient force.

If your technical skills in *any* profession--musician, carpenter, race car driver, professional athlete, and even engineer--are good enough, you can be an asshole and still keep your job.

BUT--that doesn't mean that if you're a nice enough person they'll let your incompetence slide.

--
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick

The outer limits by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:09 · Score: 0

Wallace-Jones went on to say, "Good engineering is just one of the elements we need for Facebook's vitality. We need employees with passion and dedication to make great products that connect on a global level. We need them to have a heart and soul... and to give those over to us for all eternity." She then lifted her hands and shouted, "Make it transparent!" before disappearing. Several squirrels were later reported to have mysteriously perished in the vicinity, capturing the attention of everyone for miles around the Seattle metropolitan area.

UI has less value than Math by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:10 · Score: 0

For every good solid "math guy" there are 100's of "UI guys". On top of that, you don't even need an army of people working on UI, generally the fewer cooks you have in the kitchen the better the results. But you can really never have enough people who are strong in math and science. Not only will they improve the core of your products and services, and improve the processes within your company, they will be the ones generating the patents as well.

Re:UI has less value than Math by narcc · 2016-03-20 12:28 · Score: 1

The mistake here is assuming that those 100 "UI guys" are equally or even minimally competent. Good designers are just as difficult to find, and it's much harder to separate the wheat from the chaff. When it comes to developers, those with a strong aesthetic sense tend to produce more legible and maintainable code than those with a stronger technical background. Finding people with a mix of both is difficult, but ideal.
Privileging one set of skills and trivializing another is foolish. It's a lesson many of us have learned the hard way.

--
Required reading for internet skeptics
Re:UI has less value than Math by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 12:42 · Score: 0

"Too many cooks in the kitchen" applies to any situation where you can only have so many people with a vision. Infrastructure works best when it has a unified vision, even more so than UIs. Generally, you need more UI programmers than core infrastructure programmers. An army of math and science people is great for R&D, but not great to implementation.
Re:UI has less value than Math by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-22 12:30 · Score: 0

I work with a team of 500+ other engineers developing next generation graphics cards. There are only a handful of people who are allowed to do the UI parts, but the bread and butter for my company are the folks who have solid math, CS and EE skills.

Buzzwords come in value packs now, apparently. by Dega704 · 2016-03-20 09:17 · Score: 1

Yeah, he basically said math and science aren't enough...... then described math and science. The headline actually made me think he had something insightful to say.

Well duh ... by Tetch · 2016-03-20 09:27 · Score: 5, Insightful

Regina Wallace-Jones apparently said:

"The impact of engineers goes well beyond the mobile apps, the gadgets, and the security systems that we build. The quest to engineer meaningful solutions... is not just about math and science, it's about making amazing solutions for real people in the real world"

Regina, this is not news. Any software engineer worth their salt (i.e. with a natural aptitude for computer and software engineering and science) knows this. The whole problem with our industry is that management has seen fit to offer jobs to just about anyone who wants to "work with computers". Worse, they employ the ones who *don't* even like the work ... they just want the money (they've heard there's good money in IT), but actually detest the work ... you'll never get inspirational work out of them.

Could it be that you're one of those managers who think they have a monopoly on intelligence and insight ? Some of us have known what you've just said for a decade or two, but management didn't want to listen, because "the numbers". Now that your numbers are looking good, some of you are stumbling on our prior art as if it's new and deep wisdom.

--
If you don't pray in my school, I won't think in your church.

This post temporarily blinded me by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:28 · Score: 0

No, really, it did. Whilst reading TFS, my eyes reflexively rolled back into my head so hard it took 5 minutes before I got them to go back to normal. How 'bout a trigger warning next time, submitter?

Math vs soft skills by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:38 · Score: 0

Nor is bullshit / soft skills is enough to be a great engineer. It's a rare combination when the same person can bullshit and be precise at the same time.

Re:Math vs soft skills by Mryll · 2016-03-20 10:16 · Score: 1

Looking at her background she does at least have a B.S. in Electrical Engineering. Then she went to grad school for public policy. She might be on the right track for that.

Just shell out 10b for a Moon base to prove it by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:39 · Score: 0

If all these companies' pretended good intentions about "pushing mankind to its outer limits by inspiring the world to imagine bigger solutions than our hands can hold." were true then could prove it shelling out a mere 10b to build a Moon base. Pocket change for them but they will kept it tight.

elaborate further ... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:54 · Score: 0

Explain that please

Re: elaborate further ... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 10:20 · Score: 0

Yeah. What's a horse common?
Re: elaborate further ... by fyngyrz · 2016-03-20 10:32 · Score: 1

Just start looking, horse common should be just as easy to find as horse rare, at least in France.

--
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Re:elaborate further ... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 19:02 · Score: 0

Common sense is mostly logic / reasoning.
Horse sense is instinct not to jump off a cliff even when you're busy taking orders from someone telling you to full speed ahead.
Yeah, it's common sense not to jump off the cliff, but sometimes it's hard to realize it before it's too late -- especially when things are moving fast and you're under pressure.

Facebook Exec by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:55 · Score: 0

rationalizes having a job shes not very good at.

Tools of the trade by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:56 · Score: 0

Math and science are the only tools to translate those big ideas into the real world consisting of real people. Doing it otherwise is just deluding the gullible investors during the next boom cycle. Pushing the boundaries is making science so that the engineering can begin within those new boundaries.

Good grades and school smarts aren't enough? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 09:59 · Score: 1

Gee... whodathunk.

Next, they're going to be claiming that being a physical specimen that can jump high and bench press 220 lbs isn't enough to succeed in the pro sports leagues!

Hey Regina... by jcr · 2016-03-20 10:25 · Score: 1

Tell Facebook to quit begging for my phone number. You don't need it, and I don't want to give it to you. Every time it happens, I see Zuck as a clingy bitch.

-jcr

--
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."

People Skills! by Irate+Engineer · 2016-03-20 10:33 · Score: 1

1st Bob: What you do at Initech is you take the specifications from the customer and bring them down to the software engineers? Tom: Yes, yes that's right. 2nd Bob: Well then I just have to ask why can't the customers take them directly to the software people? Tom: Well, I'll tell you why... because... engineers are not good at dealing with customers... 1st Bob: So you physically take the specs from the customer? Tom: Well... No. My secretary does that... or they're faxed. 2nd Bob: So then you must physically bring them to the software people? Tom: Well... No. ah sometimes. 1st Bob: What would you say you do here? Tom: Look I already told you, I deal with the @#$% customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills! I am good at dealing with people, can't you understand that? WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!

--

Left MS Windows for Linux Mint and never looked back!

Vote for Bernie in 2016!

Cut the crap by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 10:34 · Score: 0

Turing, Otto, Korolev, Watt, da Vinci, Santos Dumont, Tesla, Carnot, Navier, Real engineering is only about math and science... Anything else is administration, marketing or corporate crap - sometimes they are necessary skills, but they are not engineering.

Re:Cut the crap by Cederic · 2016-03-20 23:24 · Score: 1

Bullshit.
For a start, your list is flawed. e.g. Turing was a scientist, and spent much of his time doing administration. He worked with engineers who did a lot of the design work and all of the physical engineering.
Engineering is not only about maths and science. It's the intersection of maths and science with people.
Shit, I hadn't even heard of Korolev (I'm not Russian) but his wikipedia page even states "his greatest strengths proved to be in design integration, organization and strategic planning".
Organisation and strategic planning. Fuck all to do with maths or science.
If you think you're an engineer and a large proportion of your work doesn't involve communication, you're deluding yourself.

Shut up by JustAnotherOldGuy · 2016-03-20 10:58 · Score: 1

"Don't let anyone tell you that engineering is only about math and science or that engineering expertise is all you have to offer the world."

Except no one has ever told me that, and if they did I've have told them to "shut up and fuck off."

--
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...

Re:Shut up by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-21 03:01 · Score: 0

Those people skillz ....
;-)

if the skills... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 11:04 · Score: 0

... i would create a company, not work for some corporation..

Re:if the skills... by russotto · 2016-03-20 16:18 · Score: 2

Precisely. This "you need more than technical ability, you need soft skills" stuff is just one in a long line of things to keep good technical people "in their place". No one ever tell a salesperson that to advance in sales, they'll need to learn to build the product. Nor does a marketing person get told they'll need to service it to advance in marketing. But engineering? Sorry, if you can't do absolutely everything, technical and "soft", you're just a low-level drone. As you say, if I could do everything, I'd found my own damn company.

Who said "engineering is only about math..."? by dsmatthews9379 · 2016-03-20 11:05 · Score: 2

Nobody ever said "engineering is only about math and science". I've never seen it written or heard somebody ever even imply that, nor do engineering curriculums limit themselves in such a way. Reading between the lines it would seem that one person feels inadequate around people with significantly superior "math and science" knowledge and feels the need to justify their self image (and position) by implying that other people are somehow incomplete or defective.

Re:Who said "engineering is only about math..."? by tommeke100 · 2016-03-20 12:16 · Score: 1

She holds a BS in Electrical Engineering from Stanford, so she probably knows a thing or two about Math and Science ;)
However, using these ridiculous stereotypes as if being an engineer suddenly incapacitates you from showing common sense or empathy with your users or customers is getting old.
Re: Who said "engineering is only about math..."? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 16:47 · Score: 0

She holds a BS in Electrical Engineering from Stanford, so she probably knows a thing or two about Math and Science ;)
Somehow it makes her a good ui developer.

Artists by Spazmania · 2016-03-20 11:18 · Score: 2

Engineering *is* all about math and science. Software developers are not engineers. Devs are artists with strong sub-calculus math skills with a knack for flawlessly drawing within the lines while imagining a result far beyond them. We're artists first.

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Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.

Re:Artists by serviscope_minor · 2016-03-20 22:10 · Score: 1

Engineering *is* all about math and science.
There's as much of intuition and artistry about good engineering. The maths and science will tell you that what you've build won't fall down, but it won't tell you how to design it in the first place.

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SJW n. One who posts facts.
Re:Artists by K.+S.+Kyosuke · 2016-03-21 03:35 · Score: 1

Engineering *is* all about math and science. Software developers are not engineers.
True, engineering is about math and science, while programming is only about math (albeit a special kind of it).

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Ezekiel 23:20
Re:Artists by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-21 06:31 · Score: 0

The famous Spitfire fighter plane was roughly designed by calculations and then hand-worked by "rack of eye" to its final configuration by the main designer, R. J. Mitchell.
He knew what "looked right". And he WAS right.

Personal character is very important. by hey! · 2016-03-20 11:18 · Score: 2

Honesty to others, and especially honesty to self. An engineer has to be a realist in a world of wishful thinkers. He's got to work well with others, but be able to stand up to them as well. He also ought to be bold, but conscientious; sometimes taking risks but never unnecessary or sloppy ones.

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Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.

Re:Personal character is very important. by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 13:40 · Score: 0

And yet, a sociopath can fake those attributes and rapidly climb the corporate ladder faster than healthy, normal person.
There is no more dangerous foe than a sociopath who wants to take you down. He can wait for years, plotting & planning, with no limitations on ethics or morality. I know this from first hand experience.
It's taken me a while to spot them, but when I see one, I run. They will climb the ladder faster than you, and stab in the back everyone who stands in their way.
Re:Personal character is very important. by hey! · 2016-03-20 23:12 · Score: 1

I'm assuming people don't want to hire sociopaths.

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Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Re:Personal character is very important. by PPH · 2016-03-21 02:54 · Score: 1

Try spotting them. Sociopaths excel at manipulation. If you don't have the skills to spot them and they get in, you put yourself at risk trying to get them back out.
This is one reason that actual, licensed engineers have a strict code of ethics. Problem: Software 'engineering' doesn't fall under most states' PE licensing laws. So a lot of the bad actors tend to gravitate toward that profession.

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Have gnu, will travel.

Cool, so... by Fragnet · 2016-03-20 11:20 · Score: 1

is not just about math and science, it's about making amazing solutions for real people in the real world

When's Facebook going to make a start on that?

Which is why... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 11:32 · Score: 0

" Your experiences and your perspectives can help inspire a company to find a different approach to a problem or encourage someone else to speak up"

Which is why those gray hairs of tech have something to offer that the still-wet-behind-the-ears often do not. The specific tech might change, but the fundamentals do not. Experience counts.

Re:SJW crapola by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 11:58 · Score: 0

>>Or your a white guy who isn't as good as he thinks he is at his profession.

1) It's 'you're', genius. Try to spell properly when you're attacking others.

2) It is incredibly ironic that you've chosen this article to write this. It's specifically BECAUSE whites and asians are so good at their professions that Chief Diversity Wizard Regina needs to downplay math and engineering qualifications in favor of 'life experience', which is code for 'we have to hire more minorities and need some justification to explain why their credentials are shit.'

HP's example by tomhath · 2016-03-20 12:02 · Score: 2

Maybe they should hire more Medieval History majors. That worked out so well for HP.

The world according to facebook ! by khz6955 · 2016-03-20 12:24 · Score: 1

"I can visualise, for example, a world ten years from now where every activity of one's life will be constantly recorded .. Great portions of our waking state will be spent in a constant mood of self-awareness and excitement, endlessly replaying the simplest basic life experiences." ref

Re: SJW crapola by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 12:38 · Score: 0

the good old "white heterosexual man" cultural marxism

Re:SJW crapola by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 13:14 · Score: 0

1) That's the best response to the argument you have?

2) The "life experience" you deride, others would call cross-domain knowledge. That is what they are after here, someone who can code "okay" but also has knowledge outside of just CS.

But you know, just make it about how downtrodden you are. You are just as bad as all the goddamn SJW idiots out here. Wah wah I'm a white guy who is just getting FUCKED by all these goddamn minorities, taking MUH JERB! Fuck dude, be so good at your job that these people CANNOT REPLACE YOU.

If you are replaceable at your job, you suck at it anyways.

Re:SJW crapola by bug_hunter · 2016-03-20 13:21 · Score: 2, Informative

Here's the quote that you're referring to
"Don’t let anyone tell you that engineering is only about math and science or that engineering expertise is all you have to offer the world. Your experiences and your perspectives can help inspire a company to find a different approach to a problem or encourage someone else to speak up."

The headline is a bit inflammatory, the actual quote is about how engineers should have *more* say about how things are done.
At no point did she say that maths and science aren't important.
So maybe pause for 5 seconds before you hate on everything.

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It's turtles all the way down.

You need to specify "software engineers" by Swampash · 2016-03-20 13:35 · Score: 1

So we know you're not talking about real, actual engineers.

Meaningful by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 14:20 · Score: 0

Blah blah blah

Re:SJW crapola by KGIII · 2016-03-20 15:46 · Score: 1

I did not know that. I wonder where the outrage is, seriously? I've been told, many times, that a boss sleeping with an employee can never be consensual. I'm told that it starts on uneven terms and that there's no way that the employee can make the choice to be a part of that relationship. I've been told this multiple times and by multiple people.

I'm going to speculate that, by being the owner of the company, they're in a position of authority (or were) and thus any relationship is coercive and illegal/immoral/rape - depending on who has shared those views. I'm really kind of surprised I'd not heard about this. I'm surprised that nobody is outraged or was outraged.

Ah well... That is fairly off-topic, I suppose.

--
"So long and thanks for all the fish."

Oral Masturbation With Heavy Antibiotics by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 15:50 · Score: 0

At facebook, like apple, and microsoft the real talent is in sucking penis' like at a crazy pace and not getting sick.

It's also about being responsible by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 15:54 · Score: 1

I can't count how many engineers I've come across who are absolutely brilliant but can't for the life of them prioritize problems correctly, stay communicative on their challenges, and find pragmatic ways around issues. Want to be a great engineer? Learn that your talent is merely a tool, and how you use it is every bit as important.

Re:SJW crapola by dgatwood · 2016-03-20 16:16 · Score: 1

At no point did she say that maths and science aren't important.

Of course, for probably 99% of CS jobs, they aren't particularly important, which makes it kind of disappointing that she didn't say that. :-)

--

Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

A lot of hate for a good point by laddiebuck · 2016-03-20 17:36 · Score: 1

There's a lot of hate here for what is not a novel point, but a good one. Who likes to work with the technically brilliant arrogant jerk? What's the point of an awesomely engineered solution that took 5 times longer to develop than a simpler one which also did the job? If you want to do computer science research, go to a university, but 99% of you have not done that and would not thrive in that setting. Software engineering is about building good solutions with simple maintainable code, not about programming whiz tricks. Even if you're working on very performance-sensitive code, like say graphics, I'd rather you code something up based on the research or use the right library rather than spend a lot of time cooking up a possibly half-baked solution yourself. If you spend all of your time coding and don't know how to interact with people, you are a team of one, and for all but a vanishingly few, that hugely limits what you can achieve. There is no question as to Facebook's social value, just ask your grandmother where she shares her pictures. And for all the people scoffing at Facebook's technical achievements, what about HHVM, OpenCompute, Cassandra, Hive, Flux, React, GraphQL, M, and hundreds of random open source projects. And who employs the coreutils maintainer?

Facebook in General as an Engineering Proposition by hackus · 2016-03-20 17:45 · Score: 1

I can't see anything that Facebook does as any sort of serious engineering.

Your are essentially an organization that is an extension of the intelligence agency that started you out the gate.

Facebook has no engineering goals outside of its narrow mission of intelligence gathering worth discussing when organizations with far less fake value, and far more real value are doing erious operating systems kernel reengineering with real goals to improve the human condition in engineering, financial areas.

I especially don't like the fact that Zuckerburg feels he can subvert the political and deocratic process by escaping to an island with a bunch of other crony capitalists and figure out how to subvert the voting process because the "Donald" is giving them acid reflux.

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Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.

Re:SJW crapola by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-20 23:33 · Score: 0

Awww, you poor wittle cracker. What's wrong whitey, can't stand the fact your white privilege is eroding away? What, you don't like being treated like quite a few non-whites have been treated throughout history by your fellow honkeys? Facee it, the cracker race is the last remnance of the neanderthal race that died off so long ago and the quicker white privilege disappears the better. If you don't want to be known as racist then it is simple, become a slave for people of Afrikan descent and take physical abuse for even the smallest of reasons, either that or go die in a fucking fire whitey.

Shouldn't a great engineer determine what skills.. by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-21 00:30 · Score: 0

...make a great engineer?

Certainly not a Facebook anything (executive especially.)

Stupid Brogrammers by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-21 01:54 · Score: 0

People say crap like that when they lack math, science or engineering expertise. This new age of the "social programmer" is making life hard for people with actual technical skills. It use to be only guys like Gates and Jobs were living parasitically off real engineers. Now tons of douche bags are doing it, and claims the reals engineers are at fault.

Re:SJW crapola by Phantom+of+the+Opera · 2016-03-21 03:23 · Score: 1

Agreed.
I have to go further than that and agree with her absolutely. Math and Science must pass a sufficient threshold to get things done. Knowing PI to the 125th digit is more mathy, but will probably not particularly help solving any problem. Knowing Partial Differential Equations probably would help in many instances, but when was the last time they came to use for you in programming? Many of us learn more and more about math and science because we love it; we love knowledge.

Engineers have to solve problems first and foremost. It's critical that an engineer have the skills to realize what the problems actually are. Perceiving the problems takes more than math and science.

Computer programmers are not paid to write computer programs; computer programmers are paid to solve problems. Many confuse the medium with the purpose. It just happens to be that computer programs are good at solving problems.

Wtf. by kuzb · 2016-03-21 05:18 · Score: 1

When did we start listening to EXECUTIVES about what it takes to be good at a job? These are the parasites that don't do any real work, but claim all the credit for things done by other people.

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BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.

Re:SJW crapola by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-21 06:14 · Score: 0

Some time after you land your first job, you will learn that nobody is irreplaceable. Oh, there can be dire consequences for replacing them, but that doesn't mean that caution can't be thrown to the wind. Of course, if you're a conman jumping to the next mark or a blame-shifting bailout baby, this realization may never dawn upon you. But your (lack of) perception isn't a 1:1 substitute for reality.

I cry BS.. by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-21 06:18 · Score: 0

ZuckerBerg, Please..

Facebook wants people whom do the work, with out any excuses..
Engineers are perfect for this. give them a task, let them go at it their own way and pay them when done.
That's it..
Engineers are the most maintainence free, for the fact we dont want to be labled as a trouble "child" which no one wants to work with, and which people avoid..
companies dont want "Human engineers" they want drones they can give a task to for completion with out any human support required..

HR's Wet dream..

Another point to consider, if an engineer needs to much "human" support, they can just offshore the job. This way they cant see the engineer when an insurmountable project is dumped upon them..He that individual starts to break down, some one else will be waiting, hungry and ready to take food away from his fellow..

Lets ask a better question..
What happens to an engineer when their human side starts to surface and they need support? What happens when an engineer has a personal emergency, husband hits the hospital, Wife is having a baby, my daughter has a play at her school to which must be attended?
Well if the enginner is not able/willing to abide by managements OVERLY AGGRESSIVE TIME SCHEDULE. Pls see above..
If at a Mcdonnalds someone doesnt show up for what ever reason, just call sonmeone else, and hopefully that indiuvidual will abide by their shifts tomorrow.
Lets be real, when Engineers become human, companies avoid them like the plague..
they want someone in and out, bo BS in the middle, and if we can get away with not inviting them to company events derrived from their hard work, thats even better.. I mean who wants an engineer whom has to have meal paid for, due to their hard work. Ridiculous Right??

relevant Dilbert by Anonymous Coward · 2016-03-28 03:25 · Score: 0

http://dilbert.com/strip/2013-06-02

That is all.

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Facebook Exec Explains Why Technical Skills Aren't Enough To Be a Great Engineer (geekwire.com)

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