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US Says It Would Use 'Court System' Again To Defeat Encryption (arstechnica.com)
An anonymous reader shares an Ars Technica report: U.S. government officials from the FBI director down have said repeatedly that the FBI-Apple legal brouhaha was just about a single phone -- the seized iPhone used by Syed Farook, one of the San Bernardino shooters. And just last week, James Comey, the FBI director, said his fight with Apple wasn't about setting precedent; rather, it was about battling terrorism. But it seems that the storyline has changed. The Justice Department now says it will not hesitate to invoke the precedent it won in its iPhone unlocking case. Having won the court and technological battle a triumphant Department of Justice warned late Monday that its legal battle for what many say amounts to judicially ordered encryption backdoors has only just begun. "It remains a priority for the government to ensure that law enforcement can obtain crucial digital information to protect national security and public safety, either with cooperation from relevant parties, or through the court system when cooperation fails," Melanie Newman, a Justice Department spokesman, wrote in an e-mail to Ars. "We will continue to pursue all available options for this mission, including seeking the cooperation of manufacturers and relying upon the creativity of both the public and private sectors."
No one can defeat it that is all you are pushing people to One can be made that in 10,000 years you still wont get in.
news at 11
Add the letters "ab" to the front of "use" and you'll get a better idea of what the FBI appears to want to do with the courts in this case...
...Apple overlords!
There are still people who believes government lies.
It was obvious right from the beginning that it wasn't about one phone. Enjoy what remain of your privacy while you can.
Now, can I have my +5 mod? Well, I am AC, so I will probably get beaten to it by a logged-in user with a karma bonus.
So now the FBI is claiming they won the court battle? Shameless.
Did the FBI just get one judge to issue an illegal order, then they withdrew the case while that order was under appeal, and claim a precedent-setting win?
How, even by the FBI's twisted reasoning, does the FBI withdrawing it's court order to Apple translate as "legal precedent"? I'd like to think this is the FBI shirking due process, but I suspect the writer of this article may have neglected to clarify some details.
They won't risk the liability issues that can affect their stock price, or possibly mean jail for the executives. Only the open source crowd can mitigate the threat, through anonymous development if need be. Whatever it takes.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
i knew as soon as they got the order the case would be dropped and they would announce they got into the phone. this entire bs was about setting a legal precedent.
Laws and rules exist so we can rule over you. If you won't bend a knee, we'll break it. And make no mistake, we're accountable to no one. That's the attitude throughout the US government.
hate us so much. So much
Of course you aren't. Everyone who isn't in the government was saying this since the FBI first demanded it.
But the real terrorists do not use encryption like that. They don't have to.
The government is trying to push the narrative that the world is just like a Hollywood movie. It isn't. We do not need to give up our privacy so that the government can fight the "bad" men.
When you weaken encryption, you just make the "good" people more vulnerable to criminals.
patriot act 2 will fix this!
Here is how you can vote for real change. Vote with your production. Don't convert your production to dollars. If enough productive people (not sure what the critical mass would be) stopped using dollars as their currency, then the government would collapse without a single shot being fired. There would have to be austerity. Use alternative currencies like gold, silver, bitcoin, litecoin -- anything that isn't tracked/taxed. Yes all bitcoin transactions are logged but the actual person(s) using a bitcoin address doesn't have to be recorded anywhere. I'm sure the government is going to try and mandate that at some point in the future, but all I have to say is good luck with that!
If you want to weaken an out of control government, then stop creating taxable events. Leaving the country is another way.
Of course the FBI & the DOJ will prosecute their 3rd party helpers to the fullest extent possible for DMCA violations, right? I mean that iPhone didn't just unencrypt itself...
When all of your wishes have been granted, many of your dreams will be destroyed - Marilyn Manson
Both Apple & the government of the USA have learned from the recent spat, partly on the technical front and also on how to present their case in the court of public opinion.
Apple will further remove its ability to break into encrypted 'phones but as importantly be able to paint in bad colours any government that tries to make it do such things. This is assuming that this was not for show to fool ''undesirables'' that Apple 'phones are safe - something that would benefit Apple (more sales) and the government (more good data on the 'phones that it cracks).
The government will look for an even more compelling case so that it can accuse Apple of helping terrorists/paedophiles/... and so win the legal case that sets precedent or be able to pass laws that let it do so.
...the makers of devices and encryption software will fight the US with every fiber of their beings...
Out of curiosity are all safe manufacturers in the United States required to provided master keys to all of their locking mechanisms to the FBI? If a criminal happens to throw some important evidence in a safe do they go after the safe manufacturers?
I was under the impression that the FBI brought in a professional to crack the safe for them. Or if they were really desperate they just blew the thing up knowing that they might damage the contents. Doesn't the same apply here?
Original court case: GOOD TRY
Quitting and declaring success: GOOD STRATEGY
Publishing that you have a zero day exploit that makes a great many users less secure and not disclosing it to Apple so it can get fixed: GOOD OPPORTUNITY FOR IMPROVEMENT (with little additional security cost, because new generations of h/w will make the disclosure a non-issue in the near future.)
I would think that a way to achieve compromise is to individualize the encryption to the device so that, if ordered by the court, the manufacturer could hand over the key(s) for that particular device to get the data at rest. That key would be useless for any other device and it would be useless for data in transit.
I am sure that this could be further secured by also requiring the manufacturer to use a government key as well. So the end effect would be that the manufacturer has one individual key for that device, the government has a key and both would be required to decrypt the data at rest.
In the case of a breach of one or the other, the keys gathered would be useless alone.
Is this technically impossible? I don't know much about encryption (as may be obvious) but it seems like if we don't reach a compromise, things are going to end a lot worse with the government ultimately getting its way without any input from the industry.
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
Of course the Gov't will pursue this, in their best interests of establishing a legal precedent to force companies to acquiesce. Which is exactly why we have to be proactive in ensuring that never, ever happens.
That said, I believe what Snowden suggested that the idea the Gov't didn't have resources or knowledge of how to do this was "bullshit". So, assuming that, this is more political theatrics than anything. Or, it's the FBI not wanting to go asking big brother NSA to help. Or both.
.... What's old is new again!
And you call the FBI to report it, they don't do anything.
They want weak encryption (or no encryption) that is easily cracked, with plenty of backdoors, and then when criminals expose these weaknesses, the government does nothing to protect the citizens from crime.
But hey, shoot up a private party, and as long as you have a funny-sounding name and vaguely brownish skin color, then the government wants to protect you, at any cost.
Of course, double standard -- if you're a white christian male and you shoot up a school full of kids, the response is "hey, shit happens", and the government does nothing.
Really, this country is fucked. Completely.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
Shit got vacated. That means the court order they obtained in the Farook iPhone case is null and void.
They talking about the weak one they got in New York? Yea, that one won't fly very far, either.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
It was never credible that they could pledge not to do something and stick to it.
U.S. government forces Microsoft and Apple to put backdoors into their products equals nobody buying anything from these two American companies anymore.
The U.S. government is destroying its own economy!
Gee. if only the FBI put as much work into making sure automatic weapons don't get into the hands of criminals as much as they worried about telephones getting into the hands of criminals.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
Of course they'll say that. It's not like THEY'RE paying for it.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
We already know secret courts have approved things "for the benfit of the people" to protect them.
The various elements of the US government are already doing the things they wish to "make legal".
It's not about terrorism or even about setting a precedent because that already happened "legally", in a court ruling you never knew existed. IMHO this is about saving face and following the "proper channels" to act in a manner that is acceptable by the multitudes.
You think all the money, time and effort put into mass surveillance and weakening encryption is just going to go away because it's no legal? it wasn't legal to begin with but it happened.
They want to go through a regular court, backed by "the people" (preferably by popular consensus) that will give them the power they already have so next time it will all be legal and "acceptable" because Joe Sixpack agreed.
They will try again and again in many guises until it becomes law. It would have been pushed regardless of who you voted for because you have no vote in matters of security. It cannot be discussed because we're being protected in our name, against our will.
A 'singular oddity' is an event that cannot be explained and only happens when you are alone.
Apple has already caved to the Chinese government on this exact subject. Apple is only grandstanding here, and understand that the encryption on iPhones is ONLY to protect the walled garden, and has NOTHING AT ALL to do with protecting you from government. This is a marketing stunt, nothing more.
Slow Down Guys!! I need a nice story on IoT catboxes or maybe a calm bit on programming lava lamps. This government mind-fuck crap needs a rest. PLEASE!!
In Soviet Americastan, the encryption is in you.
... can be defeated via 'Court System', you're doing it wrong.
How is this different than judicially ordered cooperation from the manufacturer of a bank vault?
The manufacturer can only do so much to help. The rest is governed by physics.
This just gives Apple the push it needs to make the next gen of phones even more secure than the 5S, 6 and 6S.
The FBI thought they had it easy using Cellibrite to unlock a 5C which doesn't even have a dedicated encryption chip, they've got another thing coming.
Have you ever fallen asleep at the keybhanusdiog?
I reserve the write to mangle english.
First, the Great Wall Of Mexico, second the Great Firewall Of Encryption Backdoors. Welcome to Red America.
Who needs pesky laws when you have a court system in your back pocket.
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
The FBI hacks expose the US energy and research infrastructure to backdoor and frontdoor hacks that are now being used by state and non-state players, Russia, China, and ISIL, to attack us.
SHUT DOWN THESE HACKS!
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Apple refused to sabotage their equipment. The courts refused to order them to do so.
They proved they didn't need to sabotage the software. Demonstrating lie to their own words.
Now this idiot thinks he can still win? The more he pushes, the more we will push back. Better for him to leave it up in the air without a legal ruling declaring his desired actions unconstitional.
If he pushes more, we will push back and he will find himself wearing uncomfortable restrictions ordered by the SCOTUS.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
Did the FBI just get one judge to issue an illegal order, then they withdrew the case while that order was under appeal, and claim a precedent-setting win?
Claiming a win? Sure, because you have people with careers having the biggest-profile case in their life who want to keep their jobs and careers from taking a black mark. Realistically it was sort of a draw and sort of a "let's back the hell off because we might lose this one right now..."
But not exactly on the order. The order wasn't illegal; it's just that it basically issued but Apple could challenge it legally. The briefing to the magistrate judge (which was basically the government vs. the entire tech industry, and was maybe the most extensively briefed issue at the magistrate level in history), would have been the place where it was decided in the first instance, with appeals from there to the district court judge, the court of appeals, and then a petition for (and likely grant of) a writ of certiorari from the Supreme Court, where we would have gotten an answer that would probably change when Congress changed the law.
I'm not sure why "court system" is in quotes in the headline, but I like how it implies the courts are a sham really when it comes to the government wanting to get its way to fight "terrorism".
the justice department has become the terrorists.
FBI == a tool for the Gay (Homosexual) extortionists who work there, this is an undeniable fact.
The FBI does not represent the states (read federal). The FBI's interests are in direct conflict with state governments. Especially their homosexual agenda.
They withdrew because Apple can afford to defend itself. They will try to set precedent on some other case where the defendant isn't the wealthiest Corp in the world.
This is how the FBI/DOJ turns their utter defeat into a victory. They ran a shitty legal argument against Apple through a stupid judge, got the initial order, and then drop the whole case before Apple is able to appeal it up through the court system and get the shitty argument overturned. Now they can claim "precedent" because nobody was allowed to counter-argue during the appeals.
It's the equivalent to cutting off the microphone for your guest after you accuse them of terrorism and before they can reply to explain how you're a liar.
But hey, shoot up a private party, and as long as you have a funny-sounding name and vaguely brownish skin color, then the government wants to protect you, at any cost.
So the government protects you if you're a minority. And that's bad.
Of course, double standard -- if you're a white christian male and you shoot up a school full of kids, the response is "hey, shit happens", and the government does nothing.
Really, this country is fucked. Completely.
But the government protects you if you're a white Christian male. And that's bad.
So wait ... what was your point again?
Nope, no sig
FBI: We will use the courts to gain access (we will bludgeon you into submission) to build on this great win. Now if you will excuse me I need to get this anal tearing repaired.
"US Says It Would Use 'Court System' Again To Defeat Encryption"
Yet, the failed. There is no "Again" since they did not use the court system to defeat the encryption. This is all just PR and spin propaganda about their failure and intimidation tactics. I'd love to see the Supreme Court reach down and nail this government vampire with a wooden stake to kill government overreach and abuse of powers. Dreaming...
Liberalism is a mental disorder.
If and when the Gov. gets this mandated back door it immediately takes on the responsibility to ensure that everyone who purchase said encryption software has in fact a reliable and safe encryption application. As such if and when said application's has been compromised the Gov. will immediately, not weeks, months or years later but as soon as it has been broken, pay for a new version with new encryption keys for everyone who purchased said application. The Gov. wants a back door to an application then the Gov. takes on the responsibility for ensuring the application is available to all users. If it's broke the Gov. fixes it for free!
OK ladies and gents,,
after all is sed and dun,
whats the outcome here??
whats the value of the information gained after entry?
How about, does the value or amount of info gathered outweigh the effort, $ and time wasted fighting/defending this issue?
whom are the real winners?
and Whom are the real wieners?
I even wonder if the info gathered would outweigh the effort and time putting this rebuttal together?
bla bla bla,, some one has to have something to do, Right?
Oh, THAT'S a surprise! I think I'm gonna have a heart attack and DIE of NOT SURPRISE.
Captcha = repress, how... fitting.
Its amazing to me that these people are such sumbags, everyone knows they are scumbags doing scummy things and yet no matter how blatantly scummy they are, these scumbags continue to operate.
P.S. Scumbags.
Yours Truly, A Non Scumbag
How exactly did they use the "court system" or any legal system to defeat encryption? A third-party was able to [so says FBI] access the data on said iPhone but unless they were legally compelled to help the FBI again how did they use the "court system" to defeat encryption?
They lied about just about everything this time around -- the number of phones they wanted unlocked, the fact that there wasn't any alternative to having Apple write some new software for it, whatever that shit was about a deadly cyber pathogen on the phone, and it still looked pretty bad for them. Clearly they just didn't lie enough. Next time they should say that if the phone's not unlocked, everyone will get super AIDs. Maybe that would be enough for them to get their way with their clearly illegal and unconstitutional demands.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Why is it that we keep giving more power to the government but all we seem to get is more terrorist attacks?
100% absolute control of the people, then we'll be safe.
I think that all our data is protected from other people via encryption (much like locking the front door our house) is in the interest of public safety. Not creating a "skeleton key".
.. they will force you to decrypt your brain too !
The FBI did not win any precedent in this situation. They withdrew from the case so no precedent. The FBI and the Justice department will not hesitate to pull the same stunt again. A significant number of software companies have already moved out of the US. Apple becoming a Belgium company is not impossible.
They didn't win shit! Withdrawing the case is akin to admitting defeat, making their claim of a win total nonsense.
Is this like me using my "mad foo skillz" to defeat a charging rhino?
Obama Faces Growing Momentum to Support Widespread Encryption, by Ellen Nakashima and Andrea Peterson
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/tech-trade-agencies-push-to-disavow-law-requiring-decryption-of-phones/2015/09/16/1fca5f72-5adf-11e5-b38e-06883aacba64_story.html
US Safer with Fully Encrypted Phones: Former NSA/CIA Chief, by Tom
DiChristopher, originally published on February 23, 2016
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/02/23/us-safer-with-fully-encrypted-phones-former-nsa-cia-chief-michael-hayden.html
Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism,
Clarke Says, by David Greene
http://www.npr.org/2016/03/14/470347719/encryption-and-privacy-are-larger-issues-than-fighting-terrorism-clarke-says
David Greene talks to former national security official Richard Clarke
47 U.S.C. 1002(b)(3)
(3) Encryption
A telecommunications carrier shall not be responsible for decrypting, or ensuring the government’s ability to decrypt, any communication encrypted by a subscriber or customer, unless the encryption was provided by the carrier and the carrier possesses the information necessary to decrypt the communication.
Most of the assholes associated with the Court System don't know what an Operating System is... Let's talk about Ferguson who sat on death row for 31 years for raping and killing16 girls. Let's fund that.
Or when my friend was shot by a cop. The cops that weren't even on shift that night "witnessed" him attack the cop with a knife. 6. Really? It's the good 'ol boy system and unless you are a Free Mason or in that tight circle of knuckle-heads, you will lose.