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Panama Papers: Data Leak Exposes Massive Official Corruption (theguardian.com)

An anonymous reader writes: The hidden wealth of some of the world's most prominent leaders, politicians and celebrities has been revealed by an unprecedented leak of millions of documents that show the myriad ways in which the rich can exploit secretive offshore tax regimes. The Guardian, working with global partners, will set out details from the first tranche of what are being called "the Panama Papers". Journalists from more than 80 countries have been reviewing 11.5m files leaked from the database of Mossack Fonseca, the world's fourth biggest offshore law firm.

Twelve national leaders are among 143 politicians, their families and close associates from around the world known to have been using offshore tax havens. Among national leaders with offshore wealth are Vladimir Putin, Nawaz Sharif, Pakistan's prime minister; Ayad Allawi, ex-interim prime minister and former vice-president of Iraq; Petro Poroshenko, president of Ukraine; Alaa Mubarak, son of Egypt's former president; and the prime minister of Iceland, Sigmundur Davio Gunnlaugsson. The leak is one of the biggest ever - larger than the US diplomatic cables released by WikiLeaks in 2010, and the secret intelligence documents given to journalists by Edward Snowden in 2013.
More here. Search the Offshore Leaks Database here.

87 of 364 comments (clear)

  1. I may sound cynic by polar+red · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But I am not surprised. Time to do some 1789?

    --
    Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
  2. Iceland by Rei · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's Sigmundur Davið - that's an eth, not an o. And yes, people were already furious with the way he's been running our government, now it's boiling over. Hopefully we'll be getting rid of him soon enough....

    --
    If I ever become wealthy and mad, I'll leave Companion Cubes on desert islands for shipwreck survivors.
    1. Re:Iceland by whipslash · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah.. Unicode issue for stories. It'll be fixed soon-ish

    2. Re:Iceland by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Funny

      Like holographic storage soonish?

      Or fusion power soonish?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    3. Re:Iceland by Rei · · Score: 2

      Lol, you really think that this guy qualifies as a viking? A guy who once left in the middle of a parliamentary session while answering questions because he had a craving for chocolate cake?

      --
      If I ever become wealthy and mad, I'll leave Companion Cubes on desert islands for shipwreck survivors.
    4. Re:Iceland by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      ... before bashing your prime minister, you should give him credit for 2 relevant achievements:

      1) He kept Iceland out of the EU, protecting its national sovereignty. Believe me, the vast majority of the citizens of EU member-nations envy you for this

      2) He respected the will of the Icelandic people - as expressed in two referenda - to let state-owned banks to default on their foreign debts, instead of bowing to the IMF and the foreign investors (by the way, this means that according to today's leak, he probably acted against his own interests!)

      Now look at Greece instead: their coward prime minister bowed to the Troika instead of defaulting and exiting the eurozone, although in a referendum the Greek people had rejected the agreement with foreign creditors as well. He did all the neoliberal "reforms" requested by the Troika itself (slashing the budget, erasing workers' rights, etc...), and now his country is third world. That's exactly how Iceland would be today if your prime minister behaved the same way. And ask yourself if today's leak isn't maybe some sort of "retribution" for that...

    5. Re:Iceland by Rei · · Score: 4, Informative

      Oh thank you so much! Because I was so looking forward to being lectured about how AWESOME Framsóknarflokkurinn is from someone who's never lied here! Who gives a rat's arse that they've repeatedly stolen from the nation to enrich themselves, smuggled guns into the country, shot us down the rankings in terms of press freedom by numerous actions against the media, gutted government services to pay for policies to benefit the wealthy, and on and on. No, no, we're supposed to be thankful that they broke their campaign promise where they said that we'd get a vote on EU membership - instead breaking the law by bypassing parliament (who had the actual legal right to withdraw our membership) to withdraw it without giving the nation a vote - even though a popular vote would most likely have rejected EU membership anyway.

      Yes, I'm supposed to be SO BLOODY THRILLED with them. Thank you very much, Person-Who-Does-Not-Live-Here!

      As for your "#2", SIMMI HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. Quite to the contrary, Framsóknarflokkurinn and Sjálfstæðisflokkurinn were organizing the agreement with the British that ultimately got voted down. It was our president, Ólafur Ragnar Grímsson, who sent it to referrendum. But don't get too thrilled about King Ólafur, he's a penultimate politician; he was the best friend of the banksters when the economy was doing well, called them role models... but he sure knows how to sail a turning tide. Thankfully, he's going to be gone soon, too.

      And FYI, we DID bow down to the IMF. Seriously, read what the IMF wrote about us. We took on an IMF package and fully implemented it. We're their new poster child. Contrary to popular belief, our government has always paid its debts. What we have not paid is non-government debts - which the EFTA court ruled were not owed. The British and Dutch actions in Icesave were ridiculous; it explicitly spelled out in the Icesave accounts, one link from the front page, that they were backed by a private fund not the government as the primary insurance, and that the secondary insurance was (as is proper under treaty) the British and Dutch governments, respectivevly. Their attempt to try to pass on their loan obligations to Iceland was just shameful (although certainly in line with their long history of exploiting us - hey Brits, ever plan to pay us back for all the cod you stole???).

      Also FYI, Greece had government backed banks. And the issue was over whether or not to reject government owned debt, which nobody at all on any side disputed was government-owned. And they, unlike us, had a severe income problem as well; we had balanced budgets (before our economy fell off a cliff, at least), and a low amount of government debt (again, before we heavily indebted ourselves over the crisis trying to get the banks back on their feet - yes, we did pump large amounts of money into the banking industry, even though we let some go into receivership)

      But no, please please, tell me more about my country and how we're supposed to love our corrupt gun-smuggling perpetually-lying media-crushing government!

      --
      If I ever become wealthy and mad, I'll leave Companion Cubes on desert islands for shipwreck survivors.
    6. Re:Iceland by KGIII · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > A guy who once left [grapevine.is] in the middle of a parliamentary session while answering questions because he had a craving for chocolate cake?

      I hate to say this but it has to be said. I didn't click your link because I trust you'd not lie to me.

      I'm sorry but if someone has the balls and temerity to skip out on a parliamentary session while THEY are the one being questioned just because they had a hankering for some cake then that is kind of awesome. I know... I know it's bad for governance but the sheer balls of that? The temerity? The virtual slap that was done? The loss of face for the authorities?

      That is AWESOME!

      It's retarded - but still awesome. That would be fantastic. Other countries get shoes thrown, full on fist fights, desks and chairs broken, and people going to the hospital. The US doesn't really get anything like that at the major league level and our individual States aren't usually that exciting but they sometimes have some amusing antics.

      No, I'm not sorry to say it. That's really kind of awesome in its own little fashion.

      Anyhow... Regarding your follow-up post about an executioner. I'm familiar with Iceland, a little bit, and I also know that they've an absolutely outstandingly large percent of giants there. How many times has someone from Iceland won the World's Strongman (or is it Toughest Man) Competitions? They do things like move 500 pound kegs, carry 1500 pounds on their shoulders, move giant rocks and anvils, and lug buses and cars around. They lift hundreds and hundreds of pounds and blow out BONES from the weight and sheer torque applied to them by the muscles. In other words, sometimes their muscle fibers, ligaments, and tendons are stronger than their bones and are so strong that they break their bones!

      And little tiny Iceland, with a total population of 185 people, some seals, and an angry volcano god has a disproportionate number of winners or top-level competitors. Pretty much every year, they've got at least one person in the championship. They even have SEVERAL schools/training facilities just for this.

      I suspect there's a secret breeding program going on up there and they're feeding 'em some strange stuff and tweaking their genes. Some of those guys are huge and absurdly strong.

      I can't pronounce or spell any of their names. I can't even recollect where the two (that I know of) training facilities are. I'm gonna guess that if Iceland needs an executioner, they're well and truly able to grow their own. :-)

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    7. Re:Iceland by KGIII · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's amazing what revisionist history has done for the French Revolution. (No, not accusing you - you were the one citing actual history.)

      I believe you're from France? I don't know if you're aware of this but a lot of people who are not from France have romanticized the French Revolution and think that it had the desired income. They'll outright disbelieve you when you point out that the revolutionaries all ended up dead (for the most part). They'll refuse to look at the evidence to see that it was more than just a few royal people who died. They'll forget about the violent oppression and the wild pendulum swing (where even the wealthy mimicked the poor in things like manner of dress and social behaviors LEST THEY DIE). They'll ignore that people died for, pretty much, not being happy enough - or faking it. They don't know about the zany calendar changes, the whole swing away from allowing religion, and that it lasted, largely, up until Napoleon where he finally managed to inspire the army into action - and then promptly went crazy AND got away with coming back from exile.

      They think the Revolution was over with after a couple of heads were lopped off. They have no idea about the media manipulation that was so bad that some young lady went all the way to find the paper's publisher - stomped half-way across the country with a knife - and killed him. Then she got her head lopped off too.

      I am, by no means, a historian but I've read a bunch and there are actually a few good, objective and information dense, documentaries on the subject. One of my favorites is entitled simply that, "The French Revolution." It's not too bad - it's four or five hours long, as I recall. (I'm too lazy to look it up.)

      But yeah, I don't know if you know this but outside of your country there are a whole bunch of people who think the French Revolution was a rosy affair that ended the way it was intended to end and was over when the kids (plural?) disappeared and Marie lost her head. The Revolutionaries were batshit insane and the whole society went batshit insane for quite a while. Yet, they've a romantic image that denies the reality.

      It ended up exactly nothing like what was intended. They tried to one-up each other to be the most common, for example. Complete with their manner of dress. I believe that it still impacts some of the customs today - but I forget which ones. Something about articles of clothing, socks, pointy shoes - or lack of them, or something like that.

      They've a crazy belief that it was something other than what it was - a time of insanity that culminated with Emperor Bonaparte and his eventual failings vs. Russians and English (Lord Nelson, maybe? I am NOT a historian) and was quite a dreadful affair. They, these people who romanticize it without knowing a damned thing about it, want us to emulate it - or at least express such sentiments. I don't think they know what they speak of.

      What I do not understand is who did the revisionist history? I don't think it was by the French. I know some French people and have been to France multiple times and even discussed it with a number of citizens and ex-pats. They're quite frank and realistic about it. They largely (at least in the ones I've communicated with) accept that it really wasn't all that it was cracked up to be but that it sort of worked out in the end.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    8. Re:Iceland by KGIII · · Score: 2

      A number of people have recommended caution when proceeding forward with Unicode support - and for a variety of good reasons. That you were quite specific, something I've noticed about you - and appreciate, is that you said "for stories."

      That's probably the best choice as well as expanding a the subset that we're able to use currently. It might even be time to *gasp* slap an editor on there and let people use markdown.

      However, the complaints raised against Unicode are many and the things to be wary of are also many. Others have expressed it much more articulately than I can and I'll avoid boring you with repetition. Suffice to say, it does not look well when others can point, laugh, and say that you were warned. That you specifically stated stories makes me have high hopes for you.

      Given my druthers, I'd like to see some additional support but I see no use for the various kanji/emoticons/poop piles.

      Don't get me wrong - that will amuse me for days on end. If you enable the poop Unicode then I am going to use that character. I am going to find creative and unique ways to use that character and more. When they said that you don't want to allow that what they actually meant was that I visit and, because of this, the fewer buttons there are to push, the better off we'll be in the long-term.

      'Cause if you put a big red button that says, "DO NOT PUSH" and I in the same room together, I'm pushing that button as soon as you leave the room. It might blow up the world. It might lock the door and gas me. I'm still pushing that button. I am not even remotely unique in those regards. If you give me the poop icon or a new way to Rick-roll people, I will do that. I will do that to *you* on day one - and I actually appreciate you.

      It's probably important that you understand this. 'Cause I will find a way to make Unicode say things it does not and link to things it does not appear to link to. I can register a free domain name in about ten minutes and set up a redirection service even faster than people can figure it out. I've got time, patience, skill, and the maturity of a five year old.

      That said, I'm still waiting on you to find and change ONE number. It is literally one number and needs to be changed once. Use a text editor, search, select files and sub-folders, and search the code base for "50." Make that a new number. Any number > 50 is an improvement. If you want, I can do this for you - you just tell me what the number it is that you want there and promise to not press charges - in writing. ;-)

      Then again, it might take me a while to find that number. It's Perl. It's a combination of chicken-scratch and wingding fonts - worse, it's still actually gotta be translated from those into the original Norse before you can even work on it. But, eventually - I will find the right number. There are a finite number of values to change and the neighborhood kid has Ritalin and Adderall.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    9. Re:Iceland by Nostromo21 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Two truisms that came out of the FR:

      1. You can't make the poor rich by making the rich poor
      2. In order for the oppressed to overcome their oppressors, they invariably have to become like them

    10. Re:Iceland by KGIII · · Score: 2

      Yes, it's the comment limit and I just saw it the other day. Within the past week - I even commented as an AC to you not that long ago - a week and a half, maybe?

      Let me see what I can discover... *goes off searching and returns a few minutes later*

      Aright, I'm in the upper 40s right now. I'll post this and then, if it doesn't happen (I can take care of figuring this out in pretty quick order) I'll get back to you by my user account and, if it does, there will be an AC post. I'm sure you can tell the difference. I'm using my home in Maine as my proxy. I do have (and use) a VPN but I will avoid using it for this set of messages. (I believe admins see IP addresses, or did when I was playing with the earlier, open source, code.)

      Gimme a few minutes. I think I'm currently on post #45 for a 24 hour period.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    11. Re:Iceland by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your rant doesn't change these three elementary facts, no matter whether one lives in Iceland or not:

      1) Iceland and Greece where basically on the same boat 6 years ago: they were going bankrupt, although for different reasons. The Icelandic banks were nationalized, hence markets considered their debt equivalent to government debt. It doesn't matter that Greece's crisis depended on the general budget while yours on your banks, the macroeconomic result was the same (government bonds' yields skyrocketing and liquidity freeze)

      2) Iceland has stayed out of the EU and defaulted on its (state-owned banks') foreign debts, while Greece did not default, remained in the EU and in the eurozone, and enforced the Troika-mandated reforms that Iceland Did_Not_Do (you think you "bowed"? Really? Then, by comparison, what did the Greeks do? They transformed themselves into human carpets?!)

      3) These are the self-speaking macroeconomic results (y/y GDP growth) of the two different strategies:
      https://www.imf.org/external/p...

      Iceland is doing great, at least for a country that 6 years ago was almost bankrupt, while Greece is now basically a second-world country. And I'm really sorry for its citizens, that I love (I'm Italian, I consider the Greeks my brothers).

      None of these facts depend on one's home address or country of residence, no matter how many caps locks you use in your writing.

    12. Re:Iceland by Martin+Blank · · Score: 2

      History is complicated ... look at the american secession war. The modern myth is: it was all about slaves. However the slave issue only came "into the news" 2 or 3 years after the secession and as it seemed that the south was "winning". (Defending its cause and staying separated, not winning as in "conquering the north")

      As you say, history is complicated. You claim that the modern myth is that it was all about slaves, while many claim that it had nothing to do with slaves and was about states' rights, but the truth is more complicated.

      The secessions themselves were triggered by slavery, or rather a perceived threat to slavery. The South feared that the incoming President Lincoln would try to reduce or even end slavery, and states started seceding even before he took office in March 1861, with seven of the eleven states that would secede publishing secession declarations by that time (and thus most seceded during the presidency of Buchanan, who did essentially nothing to stop it). Those declarations made very clear that secession was about protecting slavery.

      Lincoln did want to see an end to slavery, but even more, he wanted to preserve the Union. In a letter to the editor of the New York Tribune, he wrote:

      If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.

      (Emphasis mine.)

      He held this view honestly, as slaves in states that did not secede (plus some parishes in Louisiana and a few counties in Virginia that I believe were held by Union forces) were not freed by the Emancipation Proclamation. The initial proclamation was made on 22 Sept 1862 and gave Confederate states until the end of the year to return to the Union, in which case they would be allowed to keep their slaves. After that, all slaves in rebel territory would be free in the eyes of the Union.

      This came 17 months after the start of hostilities, after the victory of Union forces at Antietam when the South's General Robert E. Lee withdrew from the battlefield before the North's General George McClellan did. McClellan's victory was almost accidental, but it prevented victory in the first major incursion by Confederate forces into Union territory. The victory was important enough for Lincoln to seize it as the moment to publicly announce the Emancipation Proclamation, which made the Civil War about slavery in the North as well as in the South. From that point on, foreign nations who had abolished slavery could no longer risk recognizing the Confederacy as an independent nation, dooming the CSA's economy and what little chance they had at winning.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    13. Re:Iceland by itsownreward · · Score: 2

      Fusion power, artificial general intelligence and unicode at Slashdot: three things that will always happen always twenty years in the future, no matter when asked.

      (On the plus side it used to be four things, but "Duke Nukem Forever" was finally published so there is some real hope. On the downside, it was really disappointing when it finally came to be, so...)

    14. Re:Iceland by Martin+Blank · · Score: 2

      Tariffs and boycotts were after-the-fact excuses. The one people blame was the Morrill Tariff, but Buchanan didn't sign that until March 1861, shortly before he left office and after seven states had already seceded (which also deprived opponents of the bill the number of senators needed to block its passage).

      If Lincoln hadn't been elected, it's unlikely the states would have seceded, at least at that time. They feared the loss of the institution of slavery that they believed Lincoln would pursue. (He probably would have, but by winding it down over time and possibly compensating Southerners for their transition to a non-slave economy.)

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
  3. Definitely nothing to see here. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Remember citizens, 'conspiracy theorists' are just nutjob losers who want to blame the reptilians or whatever for the fact that their lives suck and their tinfoil hats are too tight. The world is, in fact, basically decent and as-described. Carry on.

    1. Re:Definitely nothing to see here. by dugancent · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Conspiracy Theorist are nut job losers. Reporters, truly dedicated professionals and insiders are the ones that make this kind of information available, not people who post on conspiracy forums and rant on tumblr.

      You have to get away from the keyboard if you want to make a difference.

      --
      SJWs are the new boogeyman. -Me
    2. Re:Definitely nothing to see here. by quantaman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Remember citizens, 'conspiracy theorists' are just nutjob losers who want to blame the reptilians or whatever for the fact that their lives suck and their tinfoil hats are too tight. The world is, in fact, basically decent and as-described. Carry on.

      You might as well hand the conspiracy theorists credit for saying that WWE is fake. It's common knowledge that the super-rich hide assets, especially the politically elite in countries with weak democratic institutions.

      Twelve national leaders are among 143 politicians, their families and close associates from around the world known to have been using offshore tax havens. Among national leaders with offshore wealth are Vladimir Putin, Nawaz Sharif, Pakistan's prime minister; Ayad Allawi, ex-interim prime minister and former vice-president of Iraq; Petro Poroshenko, president of Ukraine; Alaa Mubarak, son of Egypt's former president; and the prime minister of Iceland, Sigmundur Davio Gunnlaugsson.

      The only remotely surprising one on that list is the Icelandic Prime Minister, there's a smaller bombshell in:

      Six members of the House of Lords, three former Conservative MPs and dozens of donors to UK political parties have had offshore assets.

      But again it's not that surprising, even in well developed western democracies there's corruption, the question is how many and who. It isn't even evidence that the rich are corrupt, middle class folks steal and cheat as well, there's no reason to think that getting a boatload of money magically makes people honest.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    3. Re:Definitely nothing to see here. by Khyber · · Score: 2

      "Reporters, truly dedicated professionals and insiders are the ones that make this kind of information available, not people who post on conspiracy forums and rant on tumblr."

      I doubt reporters are doing the hacking necessary to get these files leaked. So, no, the conspiracy theorist hackers that can PROVE shit (as is constantly being leaked left and fucking right) are the people you want to listen to.

      It's the very people behind the keyboards releasing this stuff. There's no 'real journalist' or 'professional reporter' anymore as they're all bought-out media fucks. Even NPR has fallen.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    4. Re:Definitely nothing to see here. by allcoolnameswheretak · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Talking about conspiracy theories, I find it interesting that the "Panama Leaks" is making front page news on European news outlets, Aljazeera, and others, but I can't find anything about it on any of the major American news outlets like CNN, Fox or MSNBC.

    5. Re:Definitely nothing to see here. by peragrin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It would take longer than 10 years. Closer to 50. That's the trick with big social change you need to cycle through generations to make it stick. After all we are just coming to terms with the sexual and color rights revolution of the 60's.

      You have to let the generation who lead the revolution die of old age before you can say it was a success. That is why now is a great time to for the USA to get involved with Cuba. Raul and Fidel will be dead within the decade and their Cuba will die with them. Same goes to Russia. Russia hasn't really given democracy a chance yet. They haven't had the time and had too few leaders to make a change.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    6. Re:Definitely nothing to see here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Except that "the journalists" aren't doing anything here, except cherry-picking what to publish in a very suspicious way: they have 11.5 million documents from a Panama law firm whose clients are mostly from the west, however, they only published 149 documents (out of the 11.5 millions), mostly about Putin, Assad and the Chinese President.

      Note that the organization that received all the documents is the so called "International Consortium of Investigative Journalists", whose biggest donor is George Soros' Open Society Foundation..

      Hopefully Wikileaks will soon get their hands on all of the files, so we'll finally have the whole picture. And it will surely be FUN.

    7. Re:Definitely nothing to see here. by dryeo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The thing with democracy is people who have no experience with it need to be eased into it. The countries descended from the English have done not too bad with democracy as they were eased into it over hundreds of years. Some of the other western countries had a rocky road to democracy, France with how many republics, other countries such as Spain with side trips into Fascism.
      This is why most all the Socialist revolutions failed, they were very naive, attempted to go from serfdom to full democracy and in almost all cases the revolutions got hijacked by authoritarian arseholes who didn't give one shit about the people.
      How to ease them into democracy, I'm not sure.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  4. Nobody from the USA? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Looking around, it doesn't look like there are any people listed from the US.

    https://panamapapers.icij.org/the_power_players/

    1. Re:Nobody from the USA? by nedlohs · · Score: 4, Funny

      Americans don't use the "fourth largest" provider or such services... It's not even in the top 3!

    2. Re:Nobody from the USA? by Torvac · · Score: 2

      exactly my first reaction. and the headline has "putin" everywhere - (putins best friend actually). quite obvious who leaked this stuff, and also the timing is just right. this is how you use intelligence data to get stuff done.

  5. Good Friends by alphatel · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Concert cellist Sergei Roldugin has known Vladimir Putin since they were teenagers and is godfather to the president's daughter Maria. On paper, Mr Roldugin has personally made hundreds of millions of dollars in profits from suspicious deals. But documents from Mr Roldugin's companies state that: "The company is a corporate screen established principally to protect the identity and confidentiality of the ultimate beneficial owner of the company."

    Tomorrow's papers: Sergei Roldugin was found in his Moscow apartment this afternoon, apparently from a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the back of the head.

    --
    When the foot seeks the place of the head, the line is crossed. Know your place. Keep your place. Be a shoe.
    1. Re:Good Friends by KGIII · · Score: 2

      This might not make sense but I'll try to explain my line of thinking and then you may, or may not, agree. However, hear me out for a minute...

      If that happened, it would be a good sign. I know, someone will have died. However, it'd be an indicator that they're scared and worried about the repercussions from an angry populace. It would mean that they want retribution. It would mean that they are worried about other information getting released.

      That nothing has happened, or will happen, is a sure sign that they're not worried about winning any more. They're no longer worried about being caught. They no longer fear the repercussions. More importantly, they no longer fear the citizenry - to the point where they're comfortable with their dirty laundry being aired and have absolutely no intentions on stopping the bad behavior now.

      That they don't care, that this man is still alive, those are bad things. In a way, it would be great if it was found having stabbed himself in the back, to death, tomorrow morning. That'd mean they care and, if caught, would face punishment and they worry about it.

      Hmm... That's not the most articulate but if you can turn that word jumble into something meaningful then you'll understand what I'm trying to say. The government should be afraid of the citizens, not the other way around. Fear, in some cases, is nothing more than a healthy respect. It doesn't have to be bad that the government fears the citizens. In fact, it's ideal that they do - though there's always the Law of Diminishing Returns. Well, almost always such a law. The Law, itself, seemingly subject to itself.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    2. Re:Good Friends by roman_mir · · Score: 2

      Nothing at all will happen. Putin doesn't care about this 'revelation' any more than he or his cohorts cared about information released about the Attorney General of Russia Chaika and his children (video) This person still keeps going strong, so do his children, and the information released about them ties them to the criminal organization responsible for the biggest case of multiple murders including little children in Russia in the last decade.

  6. curious bias in summary by sittingnut · · Score: 5, Interesting

    these papers implicate lots of western politicians directly, esp from uk. to quote "Six members of the House of Lords, three former Conservative MPs and dozens of donors to UK political parties", and david cameron family .

    in contrast, putin's implication is indirect at best, with vague indefinite connections,"The Russian president’s best friend – a cellist called Sergei Roldugin - is at the centre of a scheme in which money from Russian state banks is hidden offshore. Some of it ends up in a ski resort where in 2013 Putin’s daughter Katerina got married."
    best friend not described as that before? and location of a wedding reception?

    but this summary only mentions non western leaders(if we ignore iceland), as of now. curious!
    who is /. afraid of ?

    1. Re:curious bias in summary by bug1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A story about probable corrupt practices and conspiracy to defraud by thousands of powerful organisations going back to 1970.

      And your concerned about the bias in the summary on one of thousands of sites linking to it.... priorities, my friend.

    2. Re:curious bias in summary by whipslash · · Score: 2

      We have no fear. This story was submitted by a user, as are most of our stories, and that's what they wrote. Luckily we have great commenters to add color to the story.

    3. Re:curious bias in summary by whipslash · · Score: 5, Informative

      Also the leaders mentioned were mentioned by name in the Guardian article, where as the rest were not

  7. "Massive Corruption"? by tomhath · · Score: 4, Interesting
    FTFA:

    Though there is nothing unlawful about using offshore companies, the files raise fundamental questions about the ethics of such tax havens

    So the leaks don't expose much of anything. This does raise the obvious question of where did that money come from in the first place, but that's old news.

    1. Re:"Massive Corruption"? by cryptolemur · · Score: 5, Informative

      While it's not illegal to use offshore companies, the moment one "forgets" to mention to his friendly, local tax official about the 500 million pounds/dollars one "earned" last year, and are now hidden behind the facade of these offshore companies (that actually exists only for that sole purpose), it becomes illegal. At least in Europe.

      Well, at leat for now. Our marvelous right-wing cabinet did try to make tax evasion legal, but they received enough of a shit-storm to delay the plan.

  8. Where are the US politicians and businessman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Hmmm... Weird. Also, Canadians, British, Germans, etc. Something is not right.

    1. Re:Where are the US politicians and businessman? by hazeii · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is a very good point;it's almost less what's there, than what's been left out.

      As i understand the story so far, some southerm german paper gets this leak and enlists a *Washington DC* organisation (ICIJ) to ensure the relevant informatiion is appropriately publicised.

      --
      All your ghosts are just false positives.
    2. Re:Where are the US politicians and businessman? by Tapewolf · · Score: 2

      This is a very good point;it's almost less what's there, than what's been left out.

      As i understand the story so far, some southerm german paper gets this leak and enlists a *Washington DC* organisation (ICIJ) to ensure the relevant informatiion is appropriately publicised.

      If I'm reading it right, this is the first tranche. The US might get its turn later.

  9. Carefully composed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    so as little dirt as possible falls on the U.S. Corruption in global sports organizations, corruption in global oil business, and now this as well, and very little of it falls on the U.S. Very suspicious.

    I believe all of these have come to light and under investigation on intentions by the U.S, to wash their hands a bit after the NSA fall-out, and to make the whole world look bad and corrupt, while trying to look like shining white knights themselves.

    1. Re:Carefully composed by onepoint · · Score: 2

      It's real simple, Americans HATE with passion cheaters in sports and once proven without a shadow of a doubt, they are completely banned for mostly life and have no chance of being in the hall of fame

      a) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      b) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      classic example is Pete Rose

      --
      if you see me, smile and say hello.
    2. Re:Carefully composed by Anonymous_Coward_No1 · · Score: 2

      Cheating is the most terrible thing an athlete can do. Best to keep to honest hobbies like beating women and forcing animals to fight to death.

  10. Re:Nah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Is that so? Are you sure?

  11. Putin's on the list? Not surprising by smooth+wombat · · Score: 2, Informative

    The man who once ran Putin's campaign to take over all independent media in Russia was found bludgeoned to death in a Washington, D.C. hotel room. He would have been privy to all kinds of insider information, including money Putin has stolen from the Russian people. Take note of the NY Times article where, before an investigation had even begun, the Russia state media was already lying about what happened to Lesin: he had a heart attack.

    But this wasn't the first Russian who had inside knowledge of Putin's thefts, and who met a similar fate. Considering the billions Putin has squirreled away overseas, it's understandable people such as Lesin would need to be liquidated, especially, if the reports are true, they are giving inside information to the U.S. or others.

    This other article from the Guardian appears to be more in depth, detailing how Putin and his oligarchs have amassed personal fortunes worth anywhere from hundreds of millions of dollars to billions of dollars, all stolen via the endemic corruption of Russian business. Bank Rossiya is essentially Putin's personal bank from which he doles out billions to those who please him. To those who fall out of favor, they have to watch their backs or face the same fate as Lesin.

    I'm sure there will be denials about all the facts, but since there is no word for truth in Russian, it's understandable. After all, how can a report about someone's death being from a heart attack come out when the investigation hadn't even begun if you don't want the truth to be known?

    --
    We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    1. Re:Putin's on the list? Not surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      You didn't choose particularly good example with the death of Mr. Lesin in Washington, D.C. The problem is that first, US was saying this:

      In the days after his death on the night of Nov. 4, neither the local police nor federal investigators appeared overly alarmed. One law enforcement official said there were no obvious signs of forced entry or foul play in his hotel room. Mr. Lesin did, however, appear disheveled when he returned to the hotel, according to the video surveillance cameras, the official said.

      After four months they suddenly changed tune and now he died "of blunt force injuries to his head." So either US investigators are so incompetent they can't spot when somebody has been smashed in the head, or there is something else going on...

  12. Re:Nah by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Nobody is starving just because people with money are using legal tax shelters.

    Sure they are; government assistance programs are not as funded as they could be.

  13. Re:Nah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can name a nation of people suffering because fucks like David Cameron and George Osbourne are removing welfare that WORKING people need in order to work and be independent, while they and their cronies all benefit from a wage increase.

    And now to find out they are probably throwing money through these tax schemes on top?
    They will get destroyed if any link is found. Absolutely destruction of their whole party.
    I would hardly be surprised if the lying hypocrite fuck is part of it. He lies through his teeth so hard every single day.

    These people, just like scummy multinationals, are stealing money from taxpayers in every country they work.
    Money owed to the state.
    Don't give me your "but capitalism" bullshit, capitalism is at the core of corruption in the financial world and regulation IS needed to keep them in order.
    The free market is the worst thing. It should be banned universally.
    All it has lead to it regulatory committees being paid off, or being created BY said companies just to appease a government-run agency, despite them doing absolutely nothing to stop the corruption they should be stopping. (hell, then you have groups like the FDA and FCC in the US being paid off all the damn time to turn away and ignore things)

    People are literally dying horrible, painful slow deaths because of these companies releasing toxic foods and products that go out for years before 3rd parties catch them.
    It matters for naught, as nothing can be done anyway besides "hey, hey guys, stop selling these things okay?", so it is pretty pointless them saying anything!

    It needs to stop. NOW.

  14. Re:Nah by Cederic · · Score: 5, Informative

    And now to find out they are probably throwing money through these tax schemes on top?

    So you're basically just ranting with no actual facts, just blind ignorance.

    Made more ironic that it's been known for years that Cameron's family fortune was in fact made through tax havens:
    http://www.theguardian.com/pol...

    Try and be a little more informed, a little less blinkered and a fuckload less bloody stupid.

  15. Explains cozy relationship between banks and govt by JoeyRox · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Each has secrets that can destroy the other.

  16. Um... we already knew they were doing this by rsilvergun · · Score: 4, Insightful

    so I hardly see this as news. At worst It's moderately annoying for the people involved. Also the leakers are probably going to die soon (poor bastards).

    Remember all those reforms that happened after Snowden's leaks? No? That's because there weren't any. So long as social issues exist to divide the working class into easily manageable groups you're not gonna see squat. Let me know when you figure out how to get people to stop caring about Abortion, Gays and guns long enough to care about economics..

    --
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  17. So are we going to ask for military trials? by guruevi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If it's American documents released, there would've been 50 comments in the first 5 minutes begging for military trials and how these leaks are damaging to the country, how we need to protect our military and their assets. People were crying out for the DoJ to arrest, prosecute, stow away in Guantanamo and even execute the leakers. Now that it's primarily about other countries, I don't see any of that outcry. I don't see any media, mobs or prosecutors demanding for these leakers to go through anything like what Assange, Swartz or Snowden are going through.

    I hope they find a Hillary/Obama/Sanders threesome somewhere in there.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  18. Re:Nah by KGIII · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Non sequitur... It does not follow. Literally.

    It does not follow that if the government had more money that they'd be spending it on social safety nets. It does not matter the government, it simply does not follow. It is not necessarily true that they'd be more inclined to feed the hungry than they would be to make a down payment on yet-another-expensive-defense-project.

    I've been alive for quite a while and that doesn't necessarily make me wise - but it does mean I've had the chance to witness a lot of things. One of the things I've witnessed is that governments, at least the more stable of them, don't actually have an income problem. Not at all. They have a spending problem. We talk about the tax breaks and the tax rates while ignoring the fact that the overall taxation rate on GDP is actually as high was it has ever been.

    No, the governments have plenty of money. They just spend it on some really stupid things - like another bomber, fighter, aircraft carrier, or straight up hookers and blow. A trivial, nearly meaningless, sum might actually go/have gone to needy people but that's not even a certainty. Hell, it's not even a high probability. So, that doesn't follow. If the government had more money, there's almost certain more hookers and more blow and those just aren't going to do themselves, you know.

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  19. Soros by labnet · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Beware,
    This 'event' was 'sponsored' by a Soros funded entity AND there are currently no USA names on the list AND the biggest fingers are pointing at people the USA doesn't like.
    Sounds like a setup.

    --
    46137
    1. Re:Soros by Greyfox · · Score: 2

      Either our corruption laws are good enough, or we're a lot better at hiding our shit. Or maybe you just openly form a corporation here and blatantly set up your tax haven office with 1 guy in Ireland. Perhaps a combination of all three.

      --

      I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  20. Clinton Foundation? by TapeCutter · · Score: 2

    Is not the Clinton's money, it's a charity organisation and their books are open for inspection..

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    1. Re:Clinton Foundation? by budgenator · · Score: 2

      The Clinton Foundation, It's for Charity, all 15% that doesn't go to "overhead"!

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  21. Give it ot Wikileaks, please!!! by zedaroca · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Some journalists are going to publish only part of it, to damage only those that they have interest in hurting. Wikileaks publishes everything, and that's what we need, so that every citizen can go through it and show what's inside.

    People who have access to it, please, leak it all.

    (I was checking the journalists in ICIJ from my country, they are not from very different media outlets. I can see a lot staying hidden and I imagine it will be the same for other countries)

  22. Re:Nah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No, people might not literally starve. But the rest of us will pay more in taxes to cover the costs of running the government while the ultra-weathy exercise legal options to avoid taxes that regular taxpayers can't. Even if you accept that government simply spends too much, what it does spend still comes out of those taxpayers that pay their taxes, whether at full rate or spectacularly discounted through creative legal methods. Sure, we can work to lower the costs and the need for tax revenue in the first place, but it has to come from *somewhere*, and the ultra-weathy have done fine income-wise or in terms of lower tax rates over the last couple of decades.

    That's assuming the methods being used are actually legal.

  23. Panama postless by Nostromo21 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Not so surprisingly, Slashdot is about the only regular site I go to that I've found allowing comments on this leak. Most news sites & others I frequent have them all disabled. Funny that. Journalistic bravery, or self-preservation? :)

    Even less surprisingly, top Russian communist leader corrupt...news at 11.

    In any case, rather than follow the money, just keep en eye out for Mossack Fonseca's execs who are reported suddenly 'missing', or have 'accidents' in the near future. The shitstorm over this hasn't even begun yet. Popcorn time.

    1. Re:Panama postless by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2

      Again, Russia is many things right now, but none of them are communist, neither in name nor in spirit.

      It's an authoritarian country with a populist regime that uses symbolism and achievements from all periods - Soviet included - to prop its own legitimacy as a worthy successor. But it's most definitely a capitalist regime.

  24. Getting angry about the wrong thing by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 5, Interesting

    David Cameron and George Osbourne are removing welfare that WORKING people need in order to work and be independent

    What is wrong with this is not that they are removing it but that working people need welfare in order to work and be independent in the first place. Paying welfare to people who are in work just allows companies to pay lower wages increasing the profits for the fat cats at the top.

    1. Re:Getting angry about the wrong thing by JoeMerchant · · Score: 4, Insightful

      David Cameron and George Osbourne are removing welfare that WORKING people need in order to work and be independent

      What is wrong with this is not that they are removing it but that working people need welfare in order to work and be independent in the first place. Paying welfare to people who are in work just allows companies to pay lower wages increasing the profits for the fat cats at the top.

      Wal-Mart - family of the fattest cats from Arkansas.

    2. Re:Getting angry about the wrong thing by Methadras · · Score: 2

      Who worked very hard to get there. You think being the fattest cats in america came for free?

    3. Re:Getting angry about the wrong thing by Methadras · · Score: 2

      Welfare, the great shackle of society. Want to keep people pitiless, penniless, and defeated, then put them on a government subsidized free hand out scheme where ambition is killed, apathy and cynicism are promoted.

    4. Re:Getting angry about the wrong thing by JoeMerchant · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Who worked very hard to get there. You think being the fattest cats in america came for free?

      Thousands (perhaps millions) of Americans have worked as hard, harder, and much harder than the Wal family over the last 50 years, and have much less to show for it today. Luck in timing, luck in connections, luck in starting from a good place - these are stronger determining factors for Wal level success than "worked very hard" - some hard work is usually also required, but it's not the component most highly correlated with unusual levels of success.

  25. Brave Sir Robin by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 2

    A guy who once left [grapevine.is] in the middle of a parliamentary session while answering questions because he had a craving for chocolate cake?

    Leaving seems to be a thing with him: he apparently walked out of an interview when they asked him about his off shore accounts. Perhaps there was some more cake on offer.

  26. Re:Nah by KGIII · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I don't really have a problem with tax breaks, as some call them. Many people don't understand them and will call them "subsidies" or "tax-breaks" or other things without actually understanding them. For example, it'd be fucking moronic to tax a business on income other than its profit. Lots of people who complain about things like taxation (and this is NOT an accusation about you personally - let me make that clear) don't even know the difference between revenue and profit.

    I've had conversations that went a bit like this:

    They: That company had 1.2 billion in revenue. There's no reason they shouldn't be paying half of that in taxes.
    Me: Their profit was .3 billion.
    They: Then they need to make more money.

    They: All corporations suck!
    Me: Did you mean that? Really?
    They: Yes. Every corporation is evil, money-grubbing, thieves.
    Me: You mean like the EFF or Linux Foundation? How about the ACLU, Habitat for Humanities, or BSD?

    They: No, they can't let the guy park his car in the underground parking lot for free. It's against the law.
    Me: Wait, what?
    They: They have a legal obligation to make all the money they can, at any expense, and anything else puts the CEO in jail.
    Me: Are you high?
    They: It's called fiduciary duty, you fucking idiot. Look it up on Wikipedia! It's predatory stock-holders doing it!

    I've had multiples of those conversations in the past month.

    So, you'll have to pardon my skepticism when it comes to people, on this site in particular, attempting to discuss matters not pertaining to computers and technology.

    I don't know what your income bracket is but I know that I sold my business and retired 8 years ago. As such, I know what the "wealthy" pay in taxes. I also pay attention to the numbers.

    Now, this part might be confusing for you. I'll try to make it clear but I'm not the most articulate.

    I have a few dollars. You'd call me rich or wealthy if you saw my bank account. And yes, if you need verification then I've actually met multiple people from this very site - in person. I have also been doxxed, back before it was even a thing.

    My tax records are not a matter of public record but I pay capital gains rates. I don't do short-term investing. Just so that you know, a good rule of thumb is that if you hold onto it for longer than a year then it is taxed at capital gains rates. If you hold it less than that then it counts as regular income and is taxed at regular income rates - on the same exact form that you have access to. But, so you know, my overall rate, prior to reducing my burden, is 23% - counting both State and Federal. I can reduce it further than that, in a whole host of ways, but I don't really bother.

    This is leading to the confusing part...

    I not only don't mind taxes but I feel that I could pay more in taxes and not even notice. It's my duty to not really pay more than is required. I'm not very good at that - ask my accountant. I don't save receipts, I donate anonymously, I don't write off/down most of the things I buy that are business related.

    Business related? Absolutely. I'm still very much the chief executive officer for several incorporated groups of people. They're rather passive things but the information, the articles of incorporation/corporate charter, can all be dug out of the records easily enough. That's besides the point.

    The point is, you can incorporate if you want. Hire yourself as a sub-contractor and pay you to go to your day job. It might be worth it, if your tax burden is high enough.

    But, like I said... I don't mind taxes and would actually happily pay more if I had any reason to believe it'd be spent wisely. When I sold my business, I did donate to the government. Yes, donate. I gave the US Government money, my money, and without force. I specifically was able to donate to NASA. In case your'e curious, you can donate to NASA but you can't earmark the donation for a project. Donations must go to the general operations fund. I was wantin

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  27. Re:Nah by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 2

    Tax havens exist for everybody.

    Everyone can craft a limited liability company or incorporated in a tax haven. They are actually usually no "tax havens" but have simply retarded laws regarding "offshore companies". Try to live in such a tax haven and they tax you like any other country.

    Most of the time it is easy from any country - where ever you live - and obviously even completely legal.

    Everyone who is not doing it, has his own reasons, probably just o lazy to do the paper work or lack of trust in the the lawyers needed in the "destination country".

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  28. try going back to an earlier age by liquid_schwartz · · Score: 2

    It would be fun if letters of marque could be used for people who engage in tax doges. Find the cheat and get a large share, not the relatively small share that the IRS alleges they will give you with a ton of strings attached. Another notion is what a cool book or movie it would be for someone to take over a small tax haven and transfer the assets before the law shows up. You could have fun with that plot line. The sequels could involve various extortion angles while the thieves are on the run. It would be one of the times that people root for the pirates.

  29. Re:Nah by KGIII · · Score: 3, Informative

    Consult a legal professional.

    However, filing an application to incorporate isn't hard. You generally need three people. One will be president, the VP, and the third will be the treasurer. Or, COO, COE, or COO. Or whatever, really. You just need to fill in those parts of the document.

    You basically use your SSN as your tax ID number - they work just fine for that purpose. If the asset's primary use is for the business (in this case, you doing your job) then you can write it off. You can't write off lunch with your wife - necessarily. If she's in sales and you're entertaining a prospective customer then you can write it off. You probably won't be able to write off your whole car but you might get some depreciation. (Don't forget to claim it when you sold it or traded it in.)

    There are lots of things to do. Incorporate AND hire an accountant and keep the lawyer on retainer. Depending on how much you make, it'll probably save you money in the first year. You can incorporate and get the protections associated with it. Your boss might need to be amicable to this.

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  30. Oh.. I see what you did there. by pablo_max · · Score: 3, Funny

    You made a reference to the first macaroni machine brought to the US by Thomas Jefferson on his return from Europe in ... 1789.
    Well done Sir.

  31. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  32. Re:Nah by mjwx · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Non sequitur... It does not follow. Literally.

    For one as limited as you, you may struggle to see the connection but it is obvious. It is largely a zero sum game with a run off valve. There are X pounds in tax to be paid, there are Y pounds circulating around the economy, there are also Z costs that need to be paid. When greedy citizen A uses the run off valve to remove some of the money for his own purposes, this means that the shortfall in X has to be covered by the rest of us in the form of higher taxes. This affects the lowest earning citizens the most and yes, in many cases literally means they cannot afford food or other necessities.

    You see the issue is, when you and I, as working stiffs hide our money from Mr Cameron, he sends some nice men from HMRC to your house with a nice letter that says "pay or go to jail". However when someone like Mr Cameron does it, he's hard done by.

    No, the governments have plenty of money.

    Only the truly naive believe this. The fact is a lot of costs need to be paid and if not paid by the government end up being pushed onto you with a markup. The US health insurance system is a good demonstration of this. Despite all the flaws of the NHS, it's still cheaper than the US system and more effective for anyone except those earning above 150,000 pounds.

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  33. easy : they cheat by aepervius · · Score: 5, Informative

    "congress had an overall approval rating of 13%. Yet, 95% of the incumbents retained their seat." Only they don't call it cheating they call it gerrymandering. A nasty little way to make sure the districts are sliced in a way that popular voting does not count, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering "how to steal an election") you probably know that but I wanted to remind all our US friend how they get fucked in the ass by their politician.

    --
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    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  34. Re:Nah by jawtheshark · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I live in one of these tax havens... I pay taxes. Quite a lot of them. Less than in the neighbouring countries, but since it's so tiny here, living here is so very expensive that I sometimes think people in neighbouring countries have it better due to a lower cost of living.

    Anyway, that's not what I came to say. While it is most certainly true that everybody could profit from these tax havens by "filing the paperwork", that is not entirely true. Many require you to create companies and I know as a fact, than in my country that's not cheap. Well, okay, it'll cost you about the price of a small family car. Is that much? Not really if you've got millions or billions. So, that is one barrier of entry.

    Also keep in mind that many smaller businesses and private persons, need their income to actually live. So, that 100000$ income you have? You need it. No way you offshore it all, so you can save on taxes. Bigger companies and very rich individuals have the luxury of having a certain fluidity and can do with that "extra money", including making it disappear in shady tax schemes.

    Finally, the above problems didn't exist, you have to look at the return of investment. If I'm setting up a complicated, perhaps even borderline illegal, tax scheme to avoid taxes of, let's say 500$ a year, am I investing my time wisely? We're talking 1.37$ saved a day... That's not even the overpriced latte at Starbucks. Drop the caffeine habit, and save more...

    So, I'm not really all that sure it's a matter of "too lazy to do the paperwork".

    --
    Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
  35. Re:Nah by Gussington · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Everyone who is not doing it, has his own reasons, probably just o lazy to do the paper work or lack of trust in the the lawyers needed in the "destination country".

    Half of the world live on less than $2/day, I'm sure there's probably other reasons than not trusting your lawyer...

  36. Re:Nah by Xest · · Score: 2

    In many countries, rather than being paid directly you can register as a business, whether that's as a sole trader, or some other type really depends on your country, it's laws, and it's options.

    Whilst it's getting harder in some countries, such as the UK, what you were long able to do is get your employer to pay your business entity, rather than you, and then pay yourself from your company the minimum salary you can get away with that is either tax free, or low tax. The extra money paid to your business will typically then be paid to you via a mechanism such as dividends, which you will not pay standard income tax bands on, but will pay capital gains bands, which are generally lower.

    So for example, in the UK, the tax bands on standard income are roughly as follows:

    £0 - £10,000 = 0% tax
    £10,000 - £42,000 = 20% tax
    £42,000 - £150,000 = 40% tax
    £150,000+ = 45% tax

    So if you were earning say £60k a year, you'd pay 0% on the first £10,000, 20% on the £32,000 between £10,000 and £42,000, and then 40% on the £18,000 between £42,000 and £60,000. That is:

    £0 (0% rate) + £6,400 (20% rate) + £7,200 (40% rate) = £13,600

    (Note: You also pay NI tax in the UK, but I'm keeping it simple here).

    Now, if you'd instead paid via your company using the aforementioned low salary + capital gains combo, the capital gains tax rates were, until Friday I believe roughly:

    £0 - £11,000 = 0% tax
    £11,000+ = 20% tax IF you are paying 40% income tax
    £11,000+ = 10% tax IF you are NOT paying 40% income tax

    So you'd end up paying:

    £0 (0% income tax) + £0 (0% CGT tax allowance) + £3,900 (10% CGT tax) = £3,900 tax.

    This is because you're paying yourself a salary of £10,000 on which no income tax is owed, and then £50,000 in dividends which are owed at only the non-40% CGT rate, because your salary paid to yourself isn't in the 40% bracket, so 10% is owed on this.

    Now, you do typically have other costs from doing this - you have to pay a chartered accountant for example, which narrows the gap, but these costs are typically fixed.

    Again this is a very simplified example, other taxes and costs do come in to play, and countries have been cracking down on this kind of avoidance to varying degrees, but hopefully this illustrates the sort of tactic that has long been abused. Effectively it's only worth it if your salary justifies it - the problem is if you're on a lower salary (say £30k), you may find that by the time you've paid your accountant et. al. that you've not really achieved anything other than wasting an awful lot of your time filling in tax returns - it's not worth the effort unless your salary is high enough for the fixed costs and hassle to disappear into irrelevance compared to the tax saving.

    Again, depending on the country you're in this may not even be possible any more (if it ever was), or the rates may be adjusted to make it not worthwhile - i.e. some countries have more progressive tax rates than the UK, and some have smaller gaps between income and CGT rates. I don't know how the numbers work out in the US to put it in the context of the GP's point.

  37. Re:Nah by cardpuncher · · Score: 3, Insightful

    it'd be fucking moronic to tax a business on income other than its profit

    No it wouldn't. It would be moronic to tax a business on income other than its profit at the rates that currently apply to profit, but there is a lot to be said for a low rate of tax on turnover:

    • Turnover is less easy to disguise through service and IP payments to parent entities
    • Turnover cannot be reduced by putting money in an overseas bank and inflating your share price on the basis you might be able to repatriate it one day
    • Businesses still use the resources of their host nation (transport, security, education...) whether they are making a profit or not
    • Rent, property taxes, labour costs and raw materials are all payable regardless of profit, so why not tax?
    • Private citizens are not typically taxed on the money they have left over after paying for necessities, but on their total income, so why not corporations?
  38. Re:Nah by andydread · · Score: 2
    I'll bite....

    it seems that these documents were leaked from a prestigious law firm no? So that being the case it seems that you would be better served to hire them to deal with hiding your money. Now I'm not sure that the people that used this law firm "did the paperwork" themselves. And so there is a financial barrier to entry obviously

    so your arguement falls flat on its face hard

  39. Re:Nah by Eloking · · Score: 2

    Don't give me your "but capitalism" bullshit, capitalism is at the core of corruption in the financial world and regulation IS needed to keep them in order.

    Stopped reading there.

    All you need to do is a quick review of the Quality Of Life of the population's lower and middle class during the last 5000 years to conclude that, while capitalism isn't perfect, it's the best system humanity have come up with so far.

    --
    Elok
  40. Re:Nah by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2

    If you think the market is anything approaching an idealistic "free," you've been drinking the kool-aid without reading the label.

  41. Re:Nah by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2

    So, think of the suffering hookers, pimps and blow dealers who aren't getting that additional business because the government is getting end-run and can't tax the hidden money.

    To me, the real problem is that the money is hidden - squirreled away in private control, ready to splash out as a personal power-play whenever the urge strikes. Unlike government programs, these guys already have all the money they need to satisfy their hookers and blow appetites. What these guys do is arbitrarily splash out a big pile of cash when the urge strikes them to own some waterfront property, or a yacht, or jet - they employ a ton of people on a more or less temporary basis and then close their wallet and let everybody go looking for work again. As their numbers decline (per capita), there aren't enough of them to form a stable working economy.

    If you could rely on the rich to spend their money, they wouldn't be a problem. Hell, even if they only spend 1/2 of it before they die, that's enough to keep the wheels spinning for the rest of the world. But, when they go all Steve Jobs and sit on their billions until they die, and worse yet squirrel it away out of sight, that starves the economy, depression style.

  42. Re:Nah by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

    Really> What percentage of those people receiving benefits are cheats? Go on, provide the statistics.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  43. Re:Nah by jhol13 · · Score: 2

    "Me: Their profit was .3 billion."

    Do you know why their profit was so low? Because (some of them) funneled their profits to the company in tax heaven. How they do that? For example, by buying new logo for 1 billion, taking loan for that witn 20% interest rate, or by licencing for huge value, etc. From the company in the tax heaven.

    Legal? Maybe. Ethical? You answer that.

  44. Re:Nah by PRMan · · Score: 2

    Regulated capitalism. Look at what happened in the US with the train and oil monopolies and you can see that when one person owns it all, lots of people suffer and they don't care.

    --
    Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
  45. Re:Nah by Jahta · · Score: 5, Informative

    Really> What percentage of those people receiving benefits are cheats? Go on, provide the statistics.

    Here's a couple. By the UK government's own figures 0.7% of the entire welfare budget is accounted for by fraud. That's less even than the amount due to clerical errors by the Department of Work and Pensions, which comes to 0.9% of the total budget.

    Better yet, there is good evidence that the welfare system is effectively subsidising large companies, like Tesco and fashion chain Next, who are paying employees on or below the poverty line and letting the welfare system pick up the pieces. Of course you will never see wealthy companies (or their wealthy executives and shareholders) called "benefit cheats"; they are merely "optimising their cash flow".

  46. Re:Nah by peektwice · · Score: 2

    Your very first sentence is self-contradictory. People need government welfare programs so they can remain independent. What? If one is dependent on a government welfare program, you are not independent. I stopped reading after that. It just wasn't worth my time to continue to find fallacious assertions such as those.

    --
    Other than this text, there is no discernible information contained in this sig.