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Nest Reminds Customers That Ownership Isn't What It Used To Be (eff.org)
Alphabet-owned Nest recently announced that it will be turning off Revolv Hub next month. An anonymous reader shares an article on EFF, a privacy rights group: Nest Labs, a home automation company acquired by Google in 2014, will disable some of its customers' home automation control devices in May. This move is causing quite a stir among people who purchased the $300 Revolv Hub devices -- customers who reasonably expected that the promised "lifetime" of updates would enable the hardware they paid for to actually work, only to discover the manufacturer can turn their device into a useless brick when it so chooses. This is far from the first time that customers' software and electronics have been downgraded by manufacturers. Updates can disable features the customer paid for that have fallen out of favor with the vendor, as when Google disabled privacy settings on Android or Sony took away the ability to run GNU/Linux on a Playstation 3. Manufacturers can even render a device unusable until the customer "agrees" to new terms of use, as Nintendo did with the Wii U. Other software and devices, including some video games, are designed so they simply stop working when they can no longer dial home to a server run by the vendor.
Call a pig a pig and stop beating around the bush.
Modern app appers know that ONLY apps can app apps, NOT LUDDITE SOFTWARE like Revolv Hub!
Apps!
Dear Canucks, under your provincial consumer protection laws(varies by province) you are likely entitled to a full refund of the product price regardless of when you bought it. Revocation of a lifetime agreement, even when the company is bought out is considered a breach of said warranty and support agreement under the law, and you are permitted to a full refund. Remember, if refused it only costs $20-40 to file in small claims court over this, and you do not have to settle for arbitration in Canada, jumping through that hoop is not required.
Om, nomnomnom...
They disabled LTE on my Nexus 4 with an update. Nothing like a "flagship" device that has 3G...
Property rights are an anachronism, you own nothing, get used to it.
Why doesn't Google just release the source code and/or the protocols needed to make it work? They can keep proprietary bits that they don't own the source for (radio drivers, etc) as closed source blobs and open the rest of the code that they own.
Look, we were already over this earlier this week, with the story that lied about them bricking the hubs. There's nothing to stop anyone from reverse-engineering the protocol and getting the devices to work as intended again - nothing but money. This is what you get for trusting the cloud.
You wanted an app that could work from your phone from anywhere else in the world? Either run your own server, pay someone else to, or do without the remote functionality.
Yet another IoT fail.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Welcome to the future of the Internet of Everything!
I hate to say it, but the general population doesn't really care. If they did, they wouldn't buy/use this stuff and the companies would go out of business. It's not a situation where people aren't informed, they just don't care.
We already had this topic this week. Sigh. Do you people in charge not actually READ Slashdot?
There are two classes of product that we might get upset about:
(1) A product (hardware and/or software) that requires a Service to operate. Examples include a multiplayer video game, which may stop working if they turn off the servers. This appears to be the situation with the Revolv.
(2) A product that does not require a Service to operate. Like a Wii, or a Blu-ray player. This product might use a Service to update itself, or gain additional features, but should keep working indefinitely without the Service.
Service products die all the time. I can't play some of my old games. While I love Diablo 3, it will die eventually (Diablo II will live on in LAN parties). Yes, there is reason to be upset. I wish all Service products had a fail-safe that let me be in charge of it when the Service died. But that is simply not what I purchased.
And over there we have the labyrinth guards. One always lies, one always tells the truth, and one stabs people who ask t
I wonder if the high level of technological obsolescence (whether planned or just practical) makes the notion of "lifetime support" kind of wink-and-a-nod sort of thing where most people think that lifetime only matters for the next three years and that nobody really expects support for the next 10 years.
If technology lasted as long as my washer-dryer, I might take lifetime more seriously.
(Yes, you in the back taking notes on a Palm Pilot, you are an outlier.)
Sony removed PSN and the ability to run post 2011 games on the PS3.
If you want to spout opensource propaganda, don't stop half way!
CAPTCHA: 'overflow'.
It's just that all those lovely cloud servers it relies on to do useful stuff will go away. You still own the hardware though. Feel free to use it as a paperweight or door stop all you like.
As an aside, are there any decent non-cloud-dependent home automation controllers that a) don't cost a fortune (aka most commercially available ones), b) actually work properly*, and c) work with common off-the-shelf protocols like zigbee and zwave?
*and by that, I mean something who's primary property isn't being a Rube Goldberg contest entry?
I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
We are shutting down your pacemaker at the end of this month as we are focusing on artificial hearts instead.
We recommend getting your affairs in order prior to that date.
As a sign of thanks for your years of loyalty, we've randomly picked the exact time that your pacemaker will stop working, so your actual death will still be genuine surprise.
We hope you continue to use our products for years to come,
Yet another example of:
"The lesson everyone should take from this is: you don't own something which requires a network connection and can be updated via the network."
http://boingboing.net/2012/07/03/cisco-locks-customers-out-of-t.html
to avoid this nonsense is to drop the object like a hot potato, write off the loss and try to avoid this BS in the future.
In a way, any use of toys makes you dependent for the sole purpose to transfer $$'s into different pockets, once it's there, you are at other's whim and open for frustration having your expectations killed.
Does one really need all this hype? Good question, seems to stimulate something in people's nervous systems.
Same goes for those popup intrusions - open in a new window/tab and if it acts up, close it. Some jerk-programmers still come up with this "wait, do you really want..." idiocy.
Takes all the fun out of it.
Maybe I need some more coffee..
I last saw this sordid tale yesterday.
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
Seriously, I've never had a light switch or door key get bricked by the manufacturer. The more I go through life the more I want less electronics in places where the value is dubious. My time is worth a lot, and having to unearth documentation, or deal with software revisions is a real pain. I want the Easy Button for all the day to day stuff I don't want to think about.
There will always that small subset (over represented here) that get joy and fulfillment fiddling with things for the sake of fiddling with things. In some parts of my life I am the same. Home automation is not one of them. Having the source code to compile my own distro for home automation is not desired, I want it so simple and bullet proof that I never have to think about it after installation, or I don't want it (no matter what "it" is).
My fridge should never phone home, get viruses, get bricked, lose/gain features, spy on me, or have a touch panel. It should make cold using the smallest amount of energy for as many years as possible, full stop.
> the manufacturer can turn their device into a useless brick when it so chooses
I learned this with the Chumby.
And, I will never make that mistake again.
That is also why I will never use Windows 10.
I don't want MS to mess with my OS.
It's bad enough when you come home to find that Dr. Phil has reprogrammed your wife.
Verizon just recently discontinued their XBOX and Smart TV apps, giving us exactly two weeks notice. I was using this service to avoid renting cable boxes at $10/mo each. When I called to complain they said "Rent some cable boxes." Instead I used the opportunity to cut the cord. Bye Bye Verizon!
Mike @ The Geek Pub. Let's Make Stuff!
he Internet of Things falls into a few categories:
1) Devices that are to be used against you.
Example: The "Smart Meters", which form a 'mesh' network, and can be turned off remotely to 'save power', etc. Water meters have been made doing the same thing, "to save water". Expect them to first be 'voluntary', and then 'mandatory'. Usage patterns will then be flagged, for 'suspicious' behavior.
2) Devices that function like the extension of the supermarket loyalty card.
Example: The "Smart refrigerator" which keeps track of your diet, what's inside, and what your ordering from the supermarket. All helpfully passed onto 3rd party marketeers. You are the product being sold.
3) Devices that monitor you for 3rd parties.
Examples: Smart TVs & Consoles. The smart device watches you, while you watch it. I've read that some refuse to work if they are unplugged from the internet (I think one example was LG TV). I've also read that the manufacturers have worked on image recognition, so they can keep track of who comes & goes during which program segments, to help tailor the audience for advertisers.
Obviously, I'm a Luddite, and have none of these devices. But I also don't believe that my personal life is any business of an uninvited 3rd party, nor do I believe that when I purchase an appliance, it's the right of the manufacturer to maintain control of it.
Now I have a good reason to never buy an android device.
While I don't like this at all. Just whose "lifetime of support" do they really mean? The purchaser, or the company that created the product?
If the company no longer exists in its original form, the lifetime of the original company is over. It could be argued that the lifetime is over.
IANAL.
What has changed is that big media companies want you to adopt their sad, broken, version of non-ownership and believe that it is some new kind of ownership when in fact it is not ownership at all.
How you can compare the hardware or software of a video game, used for entertainment, to things like light switches and other parts of a functioning home is beyond me. I've been holding back from making purchases in this particular growth area of technology and the attitude of the market leader tells me I should continue to do so. This is a total crock.
Google disabled privacy settings on Android
App ops was obviously test software and had not been advertised as a feature. You needed third party apps to enable it and many apps would crash since the (correct, I might add) assumption was that the app would have access to all permissions it had requested. While it's taken them a long time, a modified variant of it has made its way into Marshmallow which now offers granular permissions and requests each when the app first makes use of it, allowing you to determine if the request is justified or not.
ReplayTV's auto-commercial skip worked well until it was removed and then replaced with the crippling 30 second skip which is now today's standard in most set top boxes. TV Networks say you're breaking The Law when auto skipping commercials.
And guess what? The Corpocrats know exactly how this game works, so together with the Bureaucrats they concoct verbiage in Trade Agreements that protect this scheme, not allowing you to remove/bypass the DRM (unless you want to be a criminal). The elected representative only get to say Yay or Nay against the whole thing ("I'll have the Deluxe burger but hold the tomato" doesn't work here, you're going to have to swallow the tomato as well).
Say, has anybody had the courage to ask Mrs. Clinton what her current stance on TPP is? A few months ago she was a bit foggy about it, and "it in it's current form" doesn't apply as it cannot be changed, only ratified or not ratified.
When the copyright term is "forever minus a day", live every day like it's the last.
Business is too one sided. The buyers need to be much more assertive regarding their rights. When a company abandons a product, they should not be allowed to have any rights over it. It all has to be put into the public domain. If we don't demand it, then we will continue to suffer.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
I get the point with the Nest that It's easy to configure through a web browser on a computer screen compared to the typical programmable thermostat, with a tiny monochrome screen and something like three buttons. The thing is that you don't really need to go through a cloud service to accomplish that. They could implement it like the internal configuration page of a broadband router or a printer, operating only within your own LAN. That's how I would want such a device to operate. If you really wanted to adjust your heat from outside, you could use a remote desktop application to get into your LAN. Any statistics could be computed and kept right on the device. There is just no benefit to the consumer of using a cloud service for these functions that I can think of. So, I think the Nest was designed to be a data collection device. It was not designed to serve the customer.
As linked in an archive.org link yesterday, Nest promised to keep supporting Revolv too. If they hadn't done that, I would have had a little sympathy for the company. Now, I have none since they promised AFTER acquisition to keep supporting it, and are breaking that promise.
https://web.archive.org/web/20141227184337/http://revolv.com/static-index.html
The Internet of Things falls into a few categories:
1) Devices that are to be used against you.
Example: The "Smart Meters", which form a 'mesh' network, and can be turned off remotely to 'save power', etc. Water meters have been made doing the same thing, "to save water". Expect them to first be 'voluntary', and then 'mandatory'. Usage patterns will then be flagged, for 'suspicious' behavior.
Smart Meters are far more about saving money for the utility company. Unless you're outsourcing to the post office (which is designed for this), sending people out to read everyone's meter is expensive and time consuming when simple telemetry can provide what's needed. They only send people out when they think there might be a problem.
Maybe you're thinking of NEST-like thermostats and whatnot, but those are different from "Smart Meters" as the phrase is currently used in the US.
2) Devices that function like the extension of the supermarket loyalty card.
Example: The "Smart refrigerator" which keeps track of your diet, what's inside, and what your ordering from the supermarket. All helpfully passed onto 3rd party marketeers. You are the product being sold.
Maybe it's different where you live, but where I'm at supermarket loyalty cards are entirely about market research and correlation for the store. They make money selling offers to other companies, but it's dwarfed by the value you're providing internally. That's why they don't reduce your savings AT ALL if you opt-out of third party marketing through them.
Today's society is about understanding your own value. My value allows me to save 30-40% at VONS if I shop intelligently and use savings when they come up. For me (and roommates I might shop for communally), that's a deal I've taken since they were introduced here in the '90s.
3) Devices that monitor you for 3rd parties.
Examples: Smart TVs & Consoles. The smart device watches you, while you watch it. I've read that some refuse to work if they are unplugged from the internet (I think one example was LG TV). I've also read that the manufacturers have worked on image recognition, so they can keep track of who comes & goes during which program segments, to help tailor the audience for advertisers.
Yeah, that's creepy. Apple's invocation of an Orwellian future rings a bit hollow when they were the company that most popularized the telescreens sitting in everyone's pockets.
I don't use a smart TV, but do have a PlayStation which has cameras, though I've disabled that functionality. I actually trust Sony more than I do the other manufacturers here as "collecting personal data" is an insignificant part of their PS business model.
Obviously, I'm a Luddite, and have none of these devices. But I also don't believe that my personal life is any business of an uninvited 3rd party, nor do I believe that when I purchase an appliance, it's the right of the manufacturer to maintain control of it.
Good for you. If you've purchased a device and are happy with how it initially functions, one easy thing to do is to remove the network config you may have already used, then open it up and disconnect (and/or cut) the circuits to the wireless antennae. With luck, there's still a USB firmware update option you might be able to use in the future, but either way it won't be communicating back without your knowledge or without someone having near-physical access to it.
Hire a Linux system administrator, systems engineer,
Thanks Google, you've lost my business... FYI - I have a four zone house that I was planning on swapping over to Nests. That's not going to happen now...
You bill more than the Indians. You're not in demand.
This kind of thing should never be allowed to go unpunished. If the law says its fine, those who made it that way need to be made examples of as well.
Civilians cannot simply allow even their right to ownership be stripped from them by those who would once again make them their serfs, now that these very items we pay for are often required to function as members of society (try getting a job without a phone).
The right to self-defense exists precisely for such things, and this is nothing if not an attack by traitors to humanity.
I would like to see a button in Android that disables all Google functions, applications, and connectivity to Google servers.
The FCC, or perhaps the FTC, would be wise to force this.
I would rather not see the European Union mandate this "forced feature" - the U.S. still lacks the "right to be forgotten" (AFAIK).
There are many who omit gapps when they load Cyanogenmod, but the carriers are making a wipe of /system increasingly difficult.
There are times when I want Google completely off of my devices. I own the device, it's my prerogative, and I would very much like to see a legal entity with appropriate jurisdiction make it happen.
I just don't get how even the people that are (rightfully) up in arms about all this will still inevitably go right out and buy another product (even from the same manufacturer that screwed them once already) that blatantly uses proprietary lock-in crap to remove ultimate control/ownership from the customer, and even allows the manufacture to data mine your life and decide what you can do with your own damn property, including disabling the it at any time with no comebacks.
Where does this ridiculously naive mindset even come from?
Microsoft, Apple, Sony, Tesla I'm looking at you, amongst others.
It is very unwise to purchase non-core telecommunications products from Verizon, as they do not last.
Digital and/or software products are an especially risky purchase.
why I refuse to put any of my home systems under control of anything that depends on the Net to function. I've been looking for simple Bluetooth-enabled thermostats (etc.) for a long time, and Nest is not the solution.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Sony took away the ability to run GNU/Linux on a Playstation 3.
If you upgraded the firmware.
Which almost everyone did without a second thought.
It was a clever hack buying wholesale lots of the heavily subsidized PS3 to build your high performance computer. Rather than SONY's more expensive commercial grade Cell hardware. But it guaranteed that the Other OS was going away and never coming back.
That puts most of us in the "in-demand field" and "skilled profession" buckets. That's not to say that the financial and other costs of emigrating are trivial...
The PT can't stay in power forever, can they? From what I've read in papers and social media and heard from familia, I'm a bit surprised Dilma hasn't been impeached.
have known this for years. RIP PS2!
Smart Meters are far more about saving money for the utility company. Unless you're outsourcing to the post office (which is designed for this), sending people out to read everyone's meter is expensive and time consuming when simple telemetry can provide what's needed. They only send people out when they think there might be a problem.
That is the most immediate benefit but I think the real reason is deeper
For the electricity grid to be stable power in needs to match power out. Currently this is achived mostly through supply-side management but that is expensive, it means leaving generation capacity idle most of the time. "use it or lose it" renewables makes the situation worse.
Smart meters give them the technical ability to introduce variable pricing depending on current load. Obviously there is a legal and political side to introducing that too but having the technical capability in place is the first step.
At least the smart meters they are fitting in the UK also have a remote disconnect contactor. This would allow implementation of higher precision blackouts (i.e. a blackout that exempted people who had medical conditions or exempted people who agree to pay more) in the event of an electricity shortage.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
That is the most immediate benefit but I think the real reason is deeper
For the electricity grid to be stable power in needs to match power out. Currently this is achived mostly through supply-side management but that is expensive, it means leaving generation capacity idle most of the time. "use it or lose it" renewables makes the situation worse.
Smart meters give them the technical ability to introduce variable pricing depending on current load. Obviously there is a legal and political side to introducing that too but having the technical capability in place is the first step.
At least the smart meters they are fitting in the UK also have a remote disconnect contactor. This would allow implementation of higher precision blackouts (i.e. a blackout that exempted people who had medical conditions or exempted people who agree to pay more) in the event of an electricity shortage.
Possibly, but power operations in the US are managed mostly state-by-state. In California, we've already been subject to rolling blackouts (infamously in the early 2000's; less-so recently). They've had the ability to exclude certain locations when they shut off a grid, but it's probably something that needs to be hard-coded. In an emergency, they're more likely to want to cut off a larger chunk at once (simpler, more reliable) than attempt to toggle lots of smaller switches independently.
Hire a Linux system administrator, systems engineer,
In California, we've already been subject to rolling blackouts (infamously in the early 2000's; less-so recently). They've had the ability to exclude certain locations when they shut off a grid, but it's probably something that needs to be hard-coded.
California's rolling blackouts were before PG&E deployed smartmeters. They had to shut off "blocks" - sections of the grid that were downstream of a particular remote-controllable switch, and which would typically cover several neighborhoods. these are the same switches that cut off a section of the grid when a line is down. (They were cagey about publishing the boundaries of the blocks, to avoid terrorism or retaliatory attacks, or something, so you can't find a map of them.) If you happened to share such a final-level switch with some major emergency service (as my residence does, probably with the cop-shop of our town), you are in "block 50" and didn't get blacked out.
The smartmeters let them remotely shut down houses on a per-meter basis. If we ever get into rotating blackouts again (and they have enough command-and-control bandwidth), being in block 50 may no longer protect you.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Just wondering why the main story links to another slashdot article, which itself doesn't track back to any original "source" article. Revolv.com is more concise and without the vitriol. I can appreciate commentary now and again, but reading "news" through somebody else's interpretation and opinions - which I don't necessarily share... Is there an RSS expectation and formatting convention that prevents linking to source pages, or is the slashdot feed automated and posts a link to whatever web address is supplied by a post submitter?
Smart Meters are far more about saving money for the utility company. Unless you're outsourcing to the post office (which is designed for this), sending people out to read everyone's meter is expensive and time consuming when simple telemetry can provide what's needed. They only send people out when they think there might be a problem.
But as long as they were already replacing the meters to avoid truck-rolls for reading them, they also added other "value added features" to them - which they are using.
- Remote cut-off: Why roll a truck to turn off a load (and again to turn it back on) when they can program their payments database to automagically do it by remote control? And since it costs next to nothing and they can still bill the user as if they rolled trucks twice, it's profitable to reduce the grace period before a late payment cuts the power.
- Fine grained billing: Measure usage over small (like 15-minute) intervals - and archive it forever. This gives both the opportunity to do all sorts of variable-by-time-etc. billing schemes and for data mining, again nearly for free once the device is in place. (The power company at my Nevada vacation/retirement ranch, shortly after they installed a smartmeter, started providing me with a daily bar chart of usage - mapped against heating degree-days. So I know they are recording that data.)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
BTW, German IT website Heise Online is reporting frequent problems reactivating Windows 7 from used Windows 7 Professional licenses. URL:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Windows-7-Aktivierungsprobleme-bei-gebrauchten-Recovery-DVDs-3163528.html
According to the article it is still unclear why exactly the keys were blocked, Microsoft has not answered inquiries from Heise yet. I guess one may assume that some keys were pirated, but the sudden increase of rejected keys still makes me wonder...
C - the footgun of programming languages
" Manufacturers can even render a device unusable until the customer "agrees" to new terms of use, as Nintendo did with the Wii U. "
Samsung just did that to my Note 3. Constant nag unless I agree to terms of service, for a service I never want to use. F U Samsung.
This shit is why I want a console to play games. Appliances that do one thing reliably and correct as often as possible is the best for me. But shit doesn't always work out. My stove doesn't work properly, one of the burners is always on max heat no matter what you turn it to on the dial. It's 2016 and my fridge still gets water at the bottom, I had to rig a thermistor to fix this myself. My vacuum stopped working as well all of a sudden. Amazing though how much money I saved using google to fix these problems for pennies instead of hundreds in less than five minutes each. I guess tech is both good and bad. Hope people stop throwing away and replacing stuff the way the trends are. Use wikihow, use google, do anything but settle for a useless doorstop of a device.
Can't you just disable the update? Block the IP range, disconnect device from Internet.. Anything..
:/
And keep it working?
Better yet, pull its current software and mod it? If it's that widely used, surely a small community can handle this
my sig pwns your sig
How many Revolve hubs were purchased?
Aphagogbit can give them their money back. Would that shutup this story?
I'm mostly thinking of the situation where due to under-investment and the unpredictability of renewables demand sometimes outstrips supply and this is a reasonablly predictable/routine thing.
Without smart meters there is little* incentive for customers to move their electricity consumption to low-demand times and if the supplier does have to resort to cutting customers off they can only include/exclude customers in large blocks. That means the only way they can forciblly reduce consumption is rolling blackouts and they have to be really stingy with who they give out exemptions to since exempting one customer will likely also exempt a bunch arround them.
Having near-realtime metering and a power switch at every customer connection gives them far more options. It may be that variable pricing schemes are enough of a carrot on their own to make people move their consumption to quieter times but if they prove insufficient then rationing schemes would also be possible.
* Some areas have multi-rate conventional meters, but these are a fairly blunt instrument and can only work on long term trends (e.g. day/night), they can't help much with sudden peaks or troughs.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register