US Steel Says China Is Using Cyber Stealth To Steal Its Secrets (npr.org)

An anonymous reader writes: U.S. Steel Corp. filed a trade complaint with the International Trade Commission: "The Chinese industry has formed a cartel that sets purchase and sale prices, and controls production and export volumes to target export markets. The Chinese industry has used its government to steal U.S. Steel's closely guarded trade secrets and uses those trade secrets to produce advanced steel products it could not make on its own." The steelmaker based in Pittsburgh argues its Chinese rivals must be investigated and that they will "use every tool available to fight for fair trade." The ITC has 30 days to review the complaint and determine whether or not it's worth investigating. In the meantime, China's Commerce Ministry said the complaints "have no factual basis," urging the ITC to reject U.S. Steel's case. The investigation will likely take a while if the ITC decides to proceed with an investigation, as they'll be dealing with three separate issues: price fixing, false labeling to avoid duties, and theft of trade secrets.

Comments

Pick one

[axewolf]

Fair trade
or
Trade secrets
Pick one.

obviously 266% duties imposed in march failed

[sittingnut]

usa imposed 266% duty on chinese steel imports in march.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-...

seems that failed to help push overpriced bad products

Re:obviously 266% duties imposed in march failed

[axewolf]

Hahaha wow, that seems like kind of a key detail to the situation.

Re:obviously 266% duties imposed in march failed

[inode_buddha]

... and thats not NEARLY enough by an order of magnitude. (disclaimer: I have been in the biz for 25 yrs, and the chinese stuff is the worst...)

Re:obviously 266% duties imposed in march failed

[Austerity Empowers]

Wow, their steel is worse than their plastic?

Re:obviously 266% duties imposed in march failed

[ArmoredDragon]

No amount will really do anything to maintain US market share. There's no escaping the fact that it's a global economy, no matter how you try to implement mercantilism. Sure, you might stop US customers from buying, but even though you raise the price in the US, there's nothing stopping say Russia or Japan from buying their steel. The only way you can do anything about dumping is through diplomacy, and by that I mean treaty organizations that provide sanctions that not just the US follows. As you can see, they really don't give a shit about US sanctions alone.

Re:obviously 266% duties imposed in march failed

[ShanghaiBill]

usa imposed 266% duty on chinese steel imports in march.

These sorts of tariffs tend to be counter-productive. America has way more users of steel than producers of steel. So this will raise costs for American car companies, appliance manufacturers, and everyone else that builds stuff out of steel, making their products less competitive. So instead of importing Chinese steel, we will import more cars, and finished goods.

Re:obviously 266% duties imposed in march failed

[TheRealHocusLocus]

Well it sure isn't helping that Obama is trying to bankrupt US coal producers whose financial health directly impacts US steel production. In the place of a real presidential cabinet where things are weighed with all factors and research is done before taking a position... we have had the Department Of CO2 Is Evil And Fuck Everything Else calling the shots. I would go so far as to assume these 'save de planet coal haters' did not even know that coal is a critical precursor to steel production, which is a keystone of domestic manufacture. It was probably on page 3 of the memo.

And Hillary also thinks that intermittent energy can replace constant coal in electricity production.
March of the stupids.
We have met the enemy and he (and she!) is within U.S.

Re:obviously 266% duties imposed in march failed

[DarkOx]

no matter how you try to implement mercantilism. Sure, you might stop US customers from buying, but even though you raise the price in the US, there's nothing stopping say Russia or Japan from buying their steel.

Nonsense there might not be much you can do about Russia but you can certainly put back the old East-West first world second world system. Its easy as telling our security umbrella clients you WILL participate in our trade embargos or we WON'T provide the military protection when you require it.

"Hey Japan it would be a shame if we just let the Chinese do whatever they wanted in the South China Sea."

Mercantilism certainly did work in the past and it certainly could work again.

Re:obviously 266% duties imposed in march failed

[gweihir]

If their stuff is so bad, why are they a threat at all? Why are artificial measures needed to make their stuff more expensive?

Re:obviously 266% duties imposed in march failed

[ooloorie]

The only way you can do anything about dumping is through diplomacy

If "dumping" were a real thing, we should be grateful for it: we are getting a valuable commodity subsidized by the Chinese government.

Re:obviously 266% duties imposed in march failed

[gtall]

The price of natural gas is what is fucking American coal miners. And talk to the people of Norfolk, Va. or Rhode Island about rising sea levels due to CO2. Countries are now tripping over themselves to use the new and improved Northern sea route between the Atlantic and Pacific. Even China is getting into the act.

Even if you don't believe in global warming, look at the coral reefs bleaching because CO2 is making the oceans acidic. This is the base of the food chain. If you think coal miners have problems now, wait another 20-30 years.

Re:obviously 266% duties imposed in march failed

[gtall]

Trump is mostly all wrong. NATO is cheap to afford and without it, the U.S. will be paying much more for defense as it must then go it alone.

Trump has no solutions, at least he hasn't fielded any. Saying he'll shake things up is not a policy nor a solution. Acting like bull in a china shop will damage the U.S. The things he thinks are true will be damaging if he could ever get them past Congress, which he won't since the Dems will probably take the Senate.

The rest of your post is simply nonsensical raving. It is what I'd expect out of someone who thinks Trump is a good idea.

Re:obviously 266% duties imposed in march failed

[imboboage0]

Also worked in the industry, yes, it's badddd. Way bad. Their plastic is arguably good compared to the shit I keep snapping om german cars...

Criminal yes, Poor Security yes

[Nethemas the Great]

Sure China likes to commit industrial espionage. Everyone know that. However, when are corporations (individuals) going to stop hiding behind laws--in the hopes that they will save them--and start taking responsibility for their own security? When in the history of the world has a law stopped a sufficiently motivated criminal?

Re:Criminal yes, Poor Security yes

[axewolf]

You say that like american business didn't invent modern industrial espionage. Did you miss WW2?

Re:Criminal yes, Poor Security yes

[Nethemas the Great]

I've got a hunch China, et al. aren't leaving the key under the mat for the US...

Re:Criminal yes, Poor Security yes

[Anonymous Coward]

The Chinese government runs large programs specifically designed to steal everything and hand it over to government controlled corporations.

If you don't think that you've every been hacked then you either don't have something worth hacking, or don't know what's going on in your own servers.

Re: Criminal yes, Poor Security yes

[WindBourne]

Really? Please provide links that show that American businesses developed espionage,and something from Pravda, xinhua, or people's daily.

Re:Criminal yes, Poor Security yes

[Gravis Zero]

when are corporations (individuals) going to stop hiding behind laws--in the hopes that they will save them

Just as soon as they holding executives liable for their negligence (corporate responsibility) or after it starts putting companies out of business (survival of the fittest).

Re: Criminal yes, Poor Security yes

[WindBourne]

Sad thing is, that at one time, American businesses and government was decent at security. Now, it is a joke.

Re:Criminal yes, Poor Security yes

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't think that you've every been hacked then you either don't have something worth hacking, or don't know what's going on in your own servers.

Or it's Pwnd so badly that the attackers keep it running smoothly so that their access to it is assured.

Re:Criminal yes, Poor Security yes

[canuck57]

Protectionism taxing American business just drives up costs and makes them less competitive.

Better find a better solution. As protectionism on a country level is like a snake eating its own tail. The more you protect, the more uncompetative the nation becomes. How many offices will buy furniture at say $20,000 for a basic metal desk and chair, then be able to compete?

Its why the existing protectionism taxes for rich and unions is not working. A Chinese or Indian can buy a nice car for only $10,000, pay less than half to maintain it, thus they can work for less. Cannot keep inflating the economics with debt, false hope, BS, higher costs of government.

But hey, some career government glass house mentality types have a lye for ya. False hope for a vote. And over $9 trillion of added debt to support with little benefiting the main stream middle class. Ya, government is working hard, but not business/job smart. Working hard doing the wrong things as the wrong things are not politically correct/corrupt enough.

Re:Criminal yes, Poor Security yes

[AmiMoJo]

Does everyone know that? As usual there is zero evidence provided here, and in the few cases where there has been evidence it has been extremely weak, like an IP address that is in China (because hackers never use proxies).

Maybe the Chinese have figured some stuff out on their own. The have a huge number of highly trained engineers and scientists.

Re: Criminal yes, Poor Security yes

[WindBourne]

Longer than the CHinese? You think that a culture that has been around for 4000 years has not been doing it longer than a culture that is less than 400 years?

Industrial Espionage

[rmdingler]

Sometimes we forget: It's not just governments spying on other governments or their citizens... sometimes this is done for fun and profit.

Just don't pretend you've a right to the high road. Chances are, your gov't engages in this subterfuge, too.

Re:China launches cyberattacks against thebUS

[WarJolt]

And Slashdot will defend China because most of the users here inexplicably hate the US.

That's bullshit. American /.ers hate either American big business (aka wallstreet) or they hate the American government (aka mainstreet). Some /.ers hate both. This is no different than the rest of America. In China they are basically the same thing, so you're just wrong.

This is about anti-dumping

[eegeerg]

From TFA:

"The Chinese industry has formed a cartel that sets purchase and sale prices, and controls production and export volumes to target export markets." But then it added a 21st century twist: "The Chinese industry has used its government to steal U.S. Steel's closely guarded trade secrets and uses those trade secrets to produce advanced steel products it could not make on its own."

Re:China launches cyberattacks against thebUS

[inode_buddha]

THIS +1000

Chinese "Baghdad Bob"

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course a real investigation takes some time, 30 days to even decide whether to pursue an investigation. Meanwhile Chinese Baghdad Bob only takes zero days to do his own complete investigation into the matter before he's able to assert with total confidence that none of it's true.

Unless of course he's nothing but a lying propagandist whose quotes aren't worth the paper they're not even printed on.

fuck off USA

[Anonymous Coward]

you have been stealing secrets for a few centuries now

Re:fuck off USA

[Ferocitus]

Maybe the Chinese government has decided that it is in the best interests for China to appropriate the best technology that is available. (Plus a little extra as payback for the Treaty of Wanghia and the Opium Wars.)
I'm sure that China will advise the US when the debt has been squared.

You gave it to them

[Anonymous Coward]

The Chinese industry has used its government to steal U.S. Steel's closely guarded trade secrets and uses those trade secrets to produce advanced steel products it could not make on its own."

Really? Really?! You could have fooled me with all those US steel engineers flying out with specs and plans and installing new hardware and software and generally doing just about everything to move the entire fucking industrial supply chain out to China to cut down on labour costs. Is there a single thing that US steel manufacturers didn't teach their Chinese sub-contractors to do over the last 20 years? Out of curiosity. Indulge me here.

Keep IP off the Internet and...

[Streetlight]

Why do companies put their most secret and important intellectual property (IP) on servers connected to the Internet? What they should do is put phony, but looking somewhat reasonable, IP on their "secure" servers. The IP thieves should have some significant difficulty getting at it to make them feel like it's the real stuff. When they spend millions or billions building a factory to duplicate the stuff and then find out it was bogus, so much the better. Maybe the thieves will stop stealing and spend their money and time on innovation.

Re:Keep IP off the Internet and...

[Gravis Zero]

Why do companies put their most secret and important intellectual property (IP) on servers connected to the Internet?

Willful ignorance and/or hubris.

What they should do is put phony, but looking somewhat reasonable, IP on their "secure" servers. The IP thieves should have some significant difficulty getting at it to make them feel like it's the real stuff.

This is called a honeypot.

When they spend millions or billions building a factory to duplicate the stuff and then find out it was bogus, so much the better.

The Chinese aren't stupid, they would investigate the material and determine it's validity.

Maybe the thieves will stop stealing and spend their money and time on innovation.

Or maybe we could stop hoarding knowledge and further all of humanity at once instead of acting like selfish petulant children.

Re:Keep IP off the Internet and...

[DivineKnight]

We really need a filter for these kind of stories on /. I mean, the problem and solution is always the same: Company A has no network security because 1.) they went cheap, and the solution is stop doing that.

Whining to the government after your open-barn-door network gets cracked (if barely, would not be surprised to find an anonymous FTP running on the company's production servers) is merely an attempt to keep your own 'cost-center' low by shoving the problem off onto someone else.

Re:Keep IP off the Internet and...

[ohnocitizen]

Why is this marked insightful? Companies need to communicate, including about their IP. OF COURSE they put IP on the internet. Also who has the time and money to create convincing yet fake IP? As if IP is just a text file with secret words in it. IP can include anything from diagrams to formulas, videos, spreadsheets, etc. Not all IP can be convincingly faked, or perhaps even faked at all.

Also who would spend millions building a factory without having checked out what was stolen first?

This is the kind of armchair opinion that when exposed to an ounce of scrutiny immediately turns to dust.

Wow, what a surprise...

[mikeiver1]

Maybe if American companies didn't put their most sensitive information on servers maintained by cheap out of country IT workers and protect said data with cheap off the shelf hardware configured by the cheapest IT staff they can lay hands on they would not find themselves being literally put out of business by their lesser competition.

Wow

[rsilvergun]

I'm shocked we managed to get a Tariff through. It's got nothing to do with bad products. 266% is not enough when they treat their workers as disposable and spew poison into the air. If we go back to doing that we could compete too. I think they call it "Race to the Bottom".

Re:Wow

[inode_buddha]

Believe it or not, the south african stuff was higher quality but the worker treatment was probably worse than the chinese even. That is not to say that it was particularly good, it was just relatively somewhat better. If I want good stuff from a modern mill, I get Thyssen-Krupp. That said, the best structural steel I ever used, bar none, was prewar Bethlehem old stock. That stuff was simply amazing. And yes indeed, its a race to the bottom for the workers (me) while the bosses are racing to the top....

Why is this a headline anymore?

[QuietLagoon]

Haven't we've seen this type of story multiple times before?

.
A headline should be for something new and unexpected?

Re:China launches cyberattacks against thebUS

[Dunbal]

Wait, did you just say that American government is "main street"? ROFL. Main street is over here. The US government is way the hell over there doing god knows what.

translation: management whine

[dltaylor]

We don't want to spend the resources to properly secure our data and infrastructure, so we're going to whine about it, instead, and hope we can get someone else (like the US taxpayers) to solve the problem we've created for ourselves.

Not quite

[JBMcB]

You can sue someone for "misappropriating" your trade secrets under US law, as long as you take reasonable precautions to keep it a secret.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Mr Pot meet Mr Kettle

[IckySplat]

> and uses those trade secrets to produce advanced steel products it could not make on its own
Airbus *cough* Boeing *cough*

Should have patented it

[AK Marc]

So, China is steeling trade secrets. The kinds of secrets Patents were invented to protect. Since the steel companies didn't try to protect their inventions in the ways set up that greatly benefit corporations, they deserve to lose them to the Public Domain (where trade secrets lost end up). The people of the US are better off, now that we can legally use the same tech. It's corporate greed. They didn't want to have it exclusively for only 14+ years, so kept it secret until they lost it. They gambled and lost, and had the intention to keep it hidden forever.

Further proof that IP laws don't work.

Re:Should have patented it

[roman_mir]

They didn't want to have it exclusively for only 14+ years, so kept it secret until they lost it. They gambled and lost, and had the intention to keep it hidden forever.

- trade secrets is the way to go, there shouldn't be government protections for anybody's monopoly, so AFAIC the trade secret is the way to protect your property right. As to 'gambled and lost', so for how long have they had their trade secrets, if they had them for longer than 14 years then they gambled and won.

Re:Should have patented it

[AK Marc]

Trade secret for the replacement for patent, yes. But since we have a patent system now, not using it isn't the fault of the Chinese, who more likely reverse engineered it, and US Steel is mad that China is charging less. It's about profit, not tradecraft.

if they had them for longer than 14 years then they gambled and won.

For someone who sometimes says smart things, you spend most of your time pretending to be dumb. Patents are good for much longer than that. Velcro is still being protected with patents, invented in 1948. Yes, I know you disagree, argue with reality, not the messenger who points out reality doesn't match your strawman. Yes, I know how long a patent is for. I also know the result of derivatory patents. Effectively, patents are 14 years with 14 year extensions available, even if that's not how it's supposed to be.

US Steel must be angry...

[hyades1]

...that somebody came along and stole all the technology US Stelle looted from Stelco in Canada, and moved down to their US plants.

Now if China found a way to steal pensions, too, it would really be a case of poetic justice.

Screw 'Em

[SoVi3t]

US Steel lied to every single person involved with their purchase of Stelco steel company, and has dragged out the case for so long, while people I know, and their families, get shafted. http://www.thespec.com/news-st.... I hate chinese/russian hackers as much as the next guy, but I could care less about US Steel and their scummy tactics.

Re: China launches cyberattacks against thebUS

[WarJolt]

Let me explain.

  If you make the government as huge as many politicians want it then there's no room for wallstreet. The government will seize large portions of the economy. You won't need wall street anymore.

It's silly to think small investment firms are less likely to screw you out of your money. I always thought main street being the antithesis of wallstreet was a euphemism politicians use for big government that somehow made their constituents all warm and fuzzy inside because it implies sticking it to the evil wall street, but maybe I made a leap others didn't. Maybe politicians really do support small local investment firms. I doubt it though.

Re:China launches cyberattacks against thebUS

[liquid_schwartz]

... or they hate the American government (aka mainstreet)....

I must have missed the part where the American government is mainstreet. I don't think that many positions that the government takes including its stances on NSA, civil forfeiture, H1B and immigration in general, free trade, foreign aid, and a great many other topics represent main street. Indeed the US has been shown to be an oligarchy where what government does bears little resemblance to what the people want. Citations:

http://www.washingtontimes.com...

Re:Hard to believe

[gweihir]

That is just the thing with protectionism: It looks good short-term, but long term it _assures_ failure because innovation and modernization are delayed forever. The voters are to stupid to grasp even elementary and obvious things like that and the politicians do not care as long as they get to keep their power. An increased call to protectionism is a good indicator that a country is in serious economic trouble, typically of their own making.

Re:Falcata

[lgw]

If you don't understand it, it must be easy, right?

U.S. Steel shafts Stelco

[CrashNBrn]

A little more detail on this: Stelco's takeover by U.S. Steel no net benefit for Canada

In remaking Stelco into U.S. Steel Canada Inc., the Pittsburgh parent committed to a number of binding undertakings, 31 in all. Chief among them were production levels (an increase in annual steel production to at least 4.3 million tons a year) and employment (no fewer than 3,950 full-time employees).

Seven years later, in September, 2014, the Canadian operation was granted protection under the Companies’ Creditors Arrangement Act, which is still winding its way through the courts. So that pretty much tells you that events did not unfold as planned.

Re:Falcata

[gtall]

Yep, steel production has not progressed much in 4000 years. Those alloys we have now, those ancient peoples must sure have had them. Those modern techniques in steel production, hey, they had water wheels, what else did they need run a modern plant.

Metallurgy? Ever hear of it? Science, math? Ring a bell?

Re:Falcata

[PopeRatzo]

Thanks for answering my question. So the trade secrets would be in the formulas of the alloys? That make sense. I don't know from metallurgy.

Re:China launches cyberattacks against thebUS

[AK Marc]

No, we just recognize the hypocrisy. Because China sells steel less than the US Steel people can sell it for and make a 50% profit on it, it must be illegally dumped. If the quality is almost as good as US Steel, then the quality must have been stolen. No proof of either accusation is presented. Just an undesirable business outcome that US Steel wants to turn into an international incident, because that's easier than making good steel.

Re:China launches cyberattacks against thebUS

[lsatenstein]

And Slashdot will defend China because most of the users here inexplicably hate the US.

That's bullshit. American /.ers hate either American big business (aka wallstreet) or they hate the American government (aka mainstreet). Some /.ers hate both. This is no different than the rest of America. In China they are basically the same thing, so you're just wrong.

Canadians do not dislike or hate Americans!!! We have a Bernie Sanders mindset, and want to see a more equitable society. And we enjoy watching Trump, Hillary, Bernie, and the others who we find clueless.

Anyone running for president should have been a tourist in the various countries in Europe and Latin America. They will discover how well the poor in those countries live, versus the poor in America.

Re:China launches cyberattacks against thebUS

[mikeiver1]

I hate neither big business nor wall street. I just think they operate in a morally and ethically shitty fashion. They manipulate the government and the laws in a manner that is designed to do the maximum damage to the general public and enrich the few that are owners/ controllers of corporations. IE, moving the control and wealth from the middle class and the poor to themselves. I am also realistic enough to know that there is nothing that we can do about it at this point other than surrender our morals and ethics to become one of them. Dennis Leary put it best "Life sucks, get a fucking helmet!"

Re:China launches cyberattacks against thebUS

[Coren22]

The poor in America have a roof over their head, food on their table, a phone in their pocket, and money to spend. How exactly are Canadian or European poor significantly different?

America has a homeless problem, but this is generally not caused by being poor but by some kind of mental illness (such as addiction). There are many programs for these people, but for various reasons, they prefer to live the homeless lifestyle. This is a totally different issue.

Re:China launches cyberattacks against thebUS

[Anonymous Cow Ward]

Why'd you bring Canada into this?

Also, the poor in most of Latin America are significantly worse off than those in America. The poor in Europe are sometimes better off, although it really depends on the country, and on what you consider "poor".