Slashdot Mirror
Russian Online Trolls Resist The Light
Rick Zeman writes: Since the beginning of the public Internet on Usenet and now following on comment boards worldwide, live the trolls, the online creatures dedicated to stirring up trouble with their versions of online flaming, fact-twisting, and overall being a menace to online society. Russia, by paying state-sponsored trolls, has elevated the troll to the level of professional propagandists spewing the party line. In neighboring Finland, a country again precariously balanced between Europe and the Russian bear, Finnish journalist Jessikka Aro's investigations have opened a new front in the (dis)information war (Warning: source may be paywalled) where "'There are so many layers of fakery you get lost,' said Ms. Aro, who was awarded the Finnish Grand Prize for Journalism in March," reports the NYT. All because "A member of the European Union with an 830-mile-long border with Russia, Finland has stayed outside the United States-led military alliance but, unnerved by Russian military actions in Ukraine and its saber-rattling in the Baltic Sea, has expanded cooperation with NATO and debated whether to apply for full membership." The NYT article explores many of the actions that the Russian propagandists use to keep Finland out of NATO, and some of the more indefensible ones directed personally at Aro. She says, "They get inside your head, and you start thinking: If I do this, what will the trolls do next?"
Is there any person reading this who genuinely believes the United States doesn't engage in exactly the same behavior, if not worse?
The meaning of troll seems to have been lost. Just because you don't like them, doesn't mean they are trolls.
The latest trend being ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS A TROLL! TROOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
A good troll breaks tedium, adds flavor and annoys wusses.
We get them on slashdot too, but they're very obvious. That's what mod points are for, and any forum that is disrupted, needs to consider Slashdot's mod and meta-mod as an option.
EU is probably doing more harm by highlighting the troll to public figures, where those public figures otherwise would never read the troll or give it credance, they're hyped into tackling a threat of free speech, best handled by ignoring it.
A lot of this is not about Ukraine, its about Putin. If Putin was popular he wouldn't be invading neighboring countries, so the best way forward is to continue to expose Putin's corruption / the rigged election, fix TOR to protect the free speech of Russians etc.
Troll recursion.
Table-ized A.I.
Of course Russia would ry and influence public opinion. Finland is a direct neighbour. And they're certainly not the only ones. China does it, Europe^Wthe EU does it, even the USoA does it. Sometimes overtly, sometimes less so. Sometimes subtle, sometimes less so. Sometimes even naked threats, innit, mr. Cameron?
So yeah, nothing surprising here. If you're honest you don't try and spin it like a scandal story, like you're a SJW or something. Because if you do that you're really lying to yourself: This isn't extraordinary. It is much more useful to scetch the scene matter-of-factly, so that everyone knows what is happening and how.
That is the point. In a word where you cannot control the population by controlling the information supply anymore, you just pollute the well so much that it becomes unusable for anyone, except for those having the knowledge, time and resources to filter out the shit. ...) has really only one option, and that is to decide who he trusts based on completely unrelated, and possibly also incorrect, data.
On any non-trivial subject that is not average Joe. He (make that 'We'
The US elections are another prime example of this.
Euros are not much better informed (am one), and Americans are no better than Russians.
We (europe) need to cut the shit with both of you and build independent European defences.
I view both as equal threats to European countries. I'm further from Russia than our suomi buddies though.
Our American friends have their peculiarities but I'll pick the USA to be my ally over the Russians any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Just about the only thing that would make me rethink that attitude is if Trump gains the presidency and even then only if he actually does what the is currently saying he will do (which I doubt). That's how much worse Russia is than the US.
This link(EU vs disinfo) was burried deep in the story, but is rather interesting, though it is unfortunate this particular service only targets pro-Kremlin disinformation.
This one story though can apply anywhere: Three classic "disinformation recipes" put to use
Trolls are by definition people who enjoy causing strife by broaching subjects that cause friction. They're not political propagandists. Trolling isn't a good tool of propaganda because heart of trolling isn't creating falsehood but uncovering unpleasant truth. And such truth seeking does never serve a particular political need. So in my mind calling potential Kremlin propagandists trolls implies that they bring up unpleasant truth. While generally actual propagandists work by highlighting truths that further political goals while downplaying unpleasant truths that doesn't. So basically accusing propagandists in trolling is tantamount to complaining that there's too much truth in propaganda..
Project Bluebird, MKUltra, etc.
Tuskegee Airmen
Gulf War Syndrome
Tracking via Cell Phones
TSA body scanners
Secret Courts, laws, watch lists, no fly lists
Deflected asteroid attack on Buenos Aires
Roswell
Kennedy assassination
AIDS
Aurora Project
Bay of Pigs
Iran Contra
Robot Al Gore
Recording all cell phone meta data
Monitoring all cell phone calls
Recording every packet crossing over any pipe an American ISP owns
Distributing crack to blacks
9/11
Operation Gunrunner / Fast and Furious
How there's only ever one person working at the post office
Watergate
The DMV
Steve Irwin Assassination
Philadelphia Experiment
Operation Northwood
Project Grey Box
Clipper chips / Palladium
Terminator 3
Operation Rainfall
Pan Am 103
Assassination of Lady Diana
Fluoride
Reptilian overlords
Chem trails
The red menace / McCarthyism
Breaking Bad Season 6
Global warming
Phantom time
etc.
etc.
Considering how many "crackpot" conspiracy theories turn out to be true, and often far worse than theorized, paranoia should be the default state.
I don't understand the desire to bash the US that seems so rampant on Slashdot. Equating the US to Russia is quite foolish.
We have our problems, sure, but they're not really a threat to you. I keep hearing that it would be a big problem if Trump is elected President. That's pretty unlikely, for one. And if he were, Congress would stand in the way of him doing substantial damage. Trump might accidentally succeed in something both Bush and Obama failed at, which is getting Congress to work together.
Europeans aren't inherently better than the US. You guys have countries seriously considering leaving the EU. You guys have some pretty serious financial issues, far worse than our debt crisis in Puerto Rico. You guys are dealing with the threat of terror and are quickly going down the road toward mass surveillance. The UK is already there and is probably worse than the US. You guys have plenty of racism directed toward refugees; why do you think the word "untermenschen" appears in Slashdot comments with some regularity? It sure isn't a slur that's used in the US.
Our government pretty clearly isn't paying people to troll the internet. The government doesn't control the US media, not even close. The wealthy and powerful almost completely control our media. It's not a great situation, but it's a far cry from anything going on in Russia.
With respect to defenses, I don't trust Europe to be more militarily responsible than the US. When you have power, there's a temptation to use it, and often it's not used for good. From time to time, we have to relearn the lessons of war as a new generation begins influencing our decisions, one who hasn't seen what war can do. We fought in WWI, WWII, and Vietnam, but many of us had forgotten how bad war can be. We've relearned that lesson from our experiences in Afghanistan and Iraq. Americans don't want more wars, because we've learned that lesson once again. These problems are not inherent to Americans; Europeans are not inherently better than Americans.
We could tell Europe to get lost and return to the Monroe Doctrine of two centuries ago. We're better off not doing that, though.
Since it's Finland, it could also have been a Scandinavian mile and not English mile, in which case one mile is defined as 10.0km.
He's not that likely to be elected.
People said that about George W. Bush.
This list reads like a really crap version of "We Didn't Start the Fire" by Billy Joel.
I knew I needed to stop reading Slashdot and finish my PhD when I started to miss articles by Bennett Haselton.
Found the Russian troll.
As has been repeatedly stated, but you Russian trolls repeatedly ignore because it exposes your lies, the U.S. does not have an army of paid trolls spewing nonsense on social media like Russia does. We know Russia pays people, its citizens, to put out lies because one woman sued the Russian government over the practice.
But as always from Russian trolls there will be an excuse or an attempt at deflecting the truth just like when it is pointed out Russia has lost over 2,000 soldiers during its invasion of Ukraine, that Russian soldiers "on vacation" keep getting captured in Ukraine, that Russia funds the terrorists in Eastern Ukraine, that the takeover of Crimea has cost Russia untold amounts of money because supporting a peninsula isn't as easy as Putin said it would be, that Russia has stolen businesses from the people in Crimea and given them over to oligarchs aligned with Putin, that the Tartars of Crimea are forbidden from speaking their own language or having their own schools, that Tartar newspapers have been shut down because they don't post what Putin tells them to do.
All this, and much, much more, is the truth but Russian trolls always find an excuse to deny the truth. Because that is what they are paid to do.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Probably you are russian troll also. Whatever americans have done, it's nothing compared to millions killed, raped, jailed and deported by russians.
stirring up trouble with their versions of online flaming, fact-twisting, and overall being a menace to online society.
Speaking of trolls...
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
The truth is not nearly as simple as you think it is.
First of all, Russia hasn't invaded Ukraine. If it actually had, the whole Ukraine would have been occupied long ago - you cannot even imagine how badly Ukrainian army is equipped and how many people there try to dodge the draft nowadays. It is telling that two thirds of Ukrainian soldiers stationed on Crimea have joined the Russian army.
What Russia does is supporting the separatists in Donbass with hardware and manpower so they can continue keeping Ukraine destabilised, because NATO treaty basically says that countries with ethnic or territorial disputes cannot join until these issues are resolved.
Second, "stealing" businesses is, in fact, business as usual in Ukraine. Every time a regime change happens there, the oligarchs of the new regime steal from the oligarchs of the old one. That was basically the reason for the latest coup (a.k.a Euromaidan) - Poroshenko has profited quite handsomely from being a president.
And as for the takeover of Crimea being expensive, well, duh. I've been in Ukraine a few times, it is not far away from being sort of European Zimbabwe. For the last 25 years Ukraine has sold basically everything they have inherited from the USSR and never invested in the country's infrastructure. Hence the expenses.
And before you call me a Putin troll - I've been on Slashdot even before Putin became a president of Russia. I just have some perspective by the fact of having actually visited Ukraine and by the fact of speaking several Slavic languages - being originally from the other Germany has its bonuses, you know.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
so many "miles" to choose from. :)
in what way, exactly, is the US a "massive threat to us (Euro)"?
Is any European country at risk of invasion by the US, for example? Ask the Baltic countries about the threat of invasion by Russia. That is entirely possible.
Does the US control strategic gas supplies for heating Europe? Does it use that to exert political leverage in Europe? Again, no, that would be Russia.
This notion of "a plague on both your houses" is just lazy thinking.
Finland has a long history of "neutrality" and trying to play off both sides of the cold war against each other for their own benefit. It didn't take Russian propaganda to make the Finns pursue such a strategy. It's also hardly news that the Russians have been trying to place propaganda in Western media, that there are actual Russophiles in Europe and European media, or that the typical response of European government and media to speech they don't like is to stomp down on it. So, why is this crap on Slashdot?
1. If you're a Finn, you're a particularly stupid one.
2. Who gives a flying fuck that "She is known for being convicted for amphetamine-related drug-charges in Finland"? What has that to do with her credibility as a journalist? Did you really read that kind of ad hominem attack and say "well, shit, if she was once convicted of possessing speed, I can't believe her journalism"? As I said, if you really are a Finn, you're a particularly stupid one.
3. Someone fired a gun next to a phone because they didn't agree with this woman's politics. And you're defending them!
Let's play Spot the Crazy Person!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Didn't you read the article? The USA/NATO trolls are "special units" which are set up to protect the West against a "growing threat [to] civil discourse."
Any foreign or independent opinions which run contrary to the narrative spelled out in Western media propaganda are a "threat"
An American here. Also studied American and World History on a college level and as a hobby. I also find Russian history fascinating.
Russia is very dysfunctional. On a totally different level than the rest of Europe, half of Asia, and the West. It's a miracle they haven't started WWIII yet.
While I think Trump would make an awful president, I don't think he lacks intelligence. He is able to articulate an opinion that resonates with a significant part of the population and gets them to vote on emotion rather than intellect. Obama did the same with his message of hope, change, and transparency, and voters mindlessly ate it up, he was even nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize before he was in office and won it without any accomplishments. Emotion can cloud even smart people's judgement. You need a majority of the population to get elected, half the people are dumber then the average person, and the average person is not too bright. To appeal to the dumb masses you need to do it based on emotion as they don't care to hear about some boring plan to fix something, they want to have a tingle run up their leg when their candidate speaks, not fall asleep when their candidate talks about tax reform.
Knowledge = Power
P= W/t
t=Money
Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
Communism — first implemented in and spread with support of Russia — has killed 94 million people in the 20th century. What have the Americans ever done to you to even approach — much less equal — that?
I invite you to compare Western Germany, dominated by Americans, with Eastern Germany... Are you still certain, the threats are equal? Or are you too young to even know, what I'm talking about?
Stalin is — thanks in part to the propaganda campaign described in TFA — once again a Russia's hero. A "strong leader"... The moment it "rose from its knees" (Russian propaganda's favorite expression), the country went on to attack neighbors. And not just to right wrongs — real or perceived — but to annex territory and expand borders. With overwhelming support from the citizenry — who forgive their own squalor to their rulers in exchange for military victories. Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine — all European countries — have already become victims.
America's last land-acquisition was Hawaii... Are you still sure, the threats are equal?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
People say a lot of things. Some of which turn out to be true.
Looking at those correlations is not going to get you anywhere close to a correct prediction.
I personally believe that what we are seeing now is the motivated core party members voting. I believe that in a general election Trump does not stand a chance against Clinton.
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
Polls mean pretty much nothing until a month or so before the actual election. They rarely reflect reality and often show contradictory results.
People said that about George W. Bush.
Nobody said that about GWB. He was ahead in the polls from the start, had a solid record as governor of Texas, and he ran as a center-right "compassionate conservative" moderate. For the first year, he also governed as a center-right moderate. It wasn't until his 2002 "axis-of-evil" speech that his presidency went off the rails.
The MK-Ultra one always gets me. I was sure it was all just a made-up kookie conspiracy theory and when it turned out to be true I had to really adjust my thinking.
Also, Ronald Reagan flooding the inner cities with crack cocaine. As much as I hated Reagan, I figured that had to be a crazy fever dream. But no...
You are welcome on my lawn.
I don't understand the desire to bash the US that seems so rampant on Slashdot.
Don't take it personally. America is on top, and people have a natural inclination to complain about the top dog. But they don't really mean it. Very few people in Europe would prefer a Russian or Chinese world order over what they have now.
Is any European country at risk of invasion by the US, for example?
Militarily, no. Culturally, yes. There are a dozen McDonalds within walking distance of the Louvre. Europeans search with Google, and socialize with Facebook. American culture, mostly from American corporations, is pervasive in Europe, and many of them don't like it.
Even a month before the election they don't mean much. We had a couple of Provincial races here in Canada where the polls were totally wrong and the last Federal election was interesting as for the first time ever, it was a 3 way race out of the gate and all 3 parties took turns leading the polls, there ended up being a record amount of strategic voting giving the winner a bigger win then predicted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
This list reads like a really crap version of "We Didn't Start the Fire" by Billy Joel.
You win the internet today.
I nominate rick zeman as faggot shill of the year
Spasibo. An insult from a troll is a compliment indeed!
Sovereign trolls in online comments are wasting their resources. The high stakes strategic target for sovereign trolls is Wikipedia's administrative structure.
Seastead this.
Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize for getting Republicans out of power. Isn't that kinda obvious?
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Last I lived in Europe, I must have missed all the armed squads of Americans forcing poor Europeans into McDonalds, making the locals use Google, and enforcing Facebook edicts. Yep, ordinary Americans living in central Texas really give a rodent's rectum where Europeans eat, browse and share stupid photos.
Anyone who seriously entertains the notion that the US/UK or for that matter any country hosting governments interested in information control is not employing paid trolls, shills, misinfo and disinfo agents in an attempt to control the narrative and beliefs of their populace (or at least muddy the waters beyond comprehension) is to this writer's mind either lost in cognitive dissonance, or worse, willfully ignorant.
I have no doubt that at least the US does this to some extent, but I doubt that it exists on a level equal to the Russian trolls, or we would be hearing more about it. Unless you believe in some vast shadowy conspiracy that has a stranglehold over all media and prevents news of this from coming to light, in which case you should really just go out and get more tinfoil.
One reason that I think it is unlikely that the US employs a huge number of people for this is just the question of getting people qualified in a language other than English. To have even a few hundred Russian speaking pro english trolls who are orchestrated and controlled by the government would be a significant recruiting effort, particularly if they need to keep their work secret.
A request for clarification - are these a list of conspiracy theories on the internet, a list of conspiracy theories that have been proven to be true, a list of conspiracy theories proven to be false? Seriously, what the fuck is this supposed to be?
Can you provide some specifics here, because your message is unclear (not that I'm surprised by that):
The Tuskegee Airmen? What, the segregated US Army Air Corp fighter squadron? Or were you thinking of the untreated Syphilis experiment?
How there's only ever one person working at the post office ? What, do they use mirrors, because when I go there, I usually see several different individuals behind the counter.
Aurora Project ? You mean the B2 Bomber?
The DMV ? What about it? That it's a large agency that's not optimized? Like Comcast's customer support is better
Chem trails condensation of the products of combustion? Or is it the generally poor science education in the US?
Terminator 3 Not the best of movies, but you want to list it with MK Ultra? please specify?
Global warming For or against?
I wish I could vote you up! I work in Europe a lot, and frankly, Europeans seem to like Kentucky Fried Chicken a hell of a lot more than I do! If you don't want it there, then stop using it, and it will go out of business in your country...
My not responding to your flame is in no way indicative of my submission to your statement, it just means I don't have t
If we're going back in history as far as WWII, then we're going back as far as Stalin. I doubt all the deaths attributable to all US presidents since WWII add up to the numbers slaughtered by Stalin. The insistence on seeing the US as dramatically more evil than every other state is patently absurd.
Nigel? On Slashdot? In the words of INXS, "Two worlds colliding..."
The longer it takes, the less time Clinton will have to hold her new, post pivot, centrist position.
I'm comfortable with the gridlock that would come from any conceivable outcome of this election. Even if Clinton wins _and_ takes the Senate, she wouldn't hold it more than two years.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
They should talk to the Thai and Vietnamese, see how they handled the arrogant foreigners.
If the French really wanted to kill McDonald's they should learn to cook a good hamburger. It's hard to make a burger as bad as McDonald's. I'm sure the French can do it (actually both, 'bad as' and 'good'), they invented 'French Fries' after all.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
There's a good, not malicious, reason why people on Slashdot are anti-Russia and anti-China. Russia is run by a kleptocrat thug who poisons dissidents on the streets of London (round the corner from my frigging office, so I remain quite indignant). China is run by an autocrat who is tightening power and clamping down on all dissent. Both states routinely forbid the mass of their citizenry from doing things that those of us in the West take for granted. The restrictions on freedom of speech, of belief, of religious practice, of sexual identity and behaviour, etc, are orders of magnitude greater than anything we in the West have to contemplate. There is no Great Firewall of the US. The one in China is all too real. This stuff matters, and ought not to be downplayed.
They make a better burger. And they make steak hache, which is glorious.
Just you people tell me when we start injecting cyanide behind grandpa's ears and eating babies at breakfast! ...
Let's play Spot the Person with a Raging Inferiority Complex!
I'm a citizen of a country that made the tragic mistake to be part of the EU, hopefully not forever, and I see the EU itself as a threat to the sovereignty of my own homeland.
I'm going to guess you're British, I know I am. English before that, though I now reside in Wales. I have also resided elsewhere(s) around to world, at various times in my life. Any (international) agreement we enter into is, in a sense, a reaction to a 'threat' to our sovereignty. Once you accept that there are other individuals / tribes / nations / associations of nations you can enter into a conversation with them. There's nothing wrong with you or me as an individual being a part of any of those units on the 'scale of nations' as you seem to perceive it. [Of course I might be wrong about your slant, I'm just deducing from what (I think) you intimated in your post. ...
The EU is not a nation, it's an association of nations, which could take a number of 'political' forms, certainly its 3 parlimentary structures are a little confusing at first glance. The question is whether we are better off not being an active internal particpant (and donor / recipient) of this association, at all, or better off being an active part of it now, and, now having the power (however little that may be, merely by virtue of being a member) to change the organisation, asking can we change it, and can we change it for the better of all within it?
I had been teetering on the fence for some while, sometimes leaning one way, other-times swaying the other or back again.
Now I'm 'certain. It is almost certainly better (for me, for you, for everyone else within the union, and potentially for everyone outside it too) to be (remain) in!*
*IMO, YMMV...
There is some debate about where french fries were invented.
Pizza has been reinvented twice. And swiss cheese is American. It was just named swiss cheese because it bears a similarity to some actually swiss cheese.
Polls are pretty good indicators... until the fraud kicks in.
Funny: There was a Kentucky Fried Chicken right next to my work. It just went out of business because 2 years ago, a pair of Greek guys opened a nice little chargrilled chicken place across the road.
Nobody went to KFC anymore.
Amazing that Breaking Bad Season 6 didn't make your list...what about it?
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
He's not that likely to be elected.
People said that about George W. Bush.
Twice.
blindly antisocialist = antisocial