IT Layoffs At Insurance Firm Are A 'Never-Ending Funeral' (computerworld.com)

dcblogs quotes a report from Computerworld: The IT layoffs at MassMutual Financial Group will happen over a period of many months, and it's going to be painful for employees. Employees say they are training overseas workers via web conferencing sessions. There are contractors in the office as well, some of whom may be working on temporary H-1B visas. Employees say they notice more foreign workers in the hallways. Approximately 100 employees are affected. The employees are angry but can't show it. A loss of composure, anything other than quiet acquiescence, means risking two weeks of severance pay for each year on the job. But maintaining composure is hard to do. "I know a few people that are probably close to a breakdown," said one IT employee. [A second IT employee described the emotional impact of the layoffs on employees in this way: "It's like a never-ending funeral."] Intel also confirmed major layoffs in April, which will affect some 12,000 employees or 11 percent of its total workforce.

Comments

This sort of thing is why people like Trump

[FlyHelicopters]

Now you may or may not think Trump will DO anything about it, that is a separate topic...

But a whole lot of people are tired of this and Trump keeps saying he'll do something about it.

At the end of the day, "Acting Presidential" is less important to the average person than not having their job outsourced overseas.

Re:This sort of thing is why people like Trump

[smooth wombat]

Which is why Trump has his name brand shirts made in Mexico and his other products are made in China.

Re:This sort of thing is why people like Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

He's a huckster, first and foremost, and has spent his entire career proving that people are stupid enough to fall for it, Presidential bid included.

Re:This sort of thing is why people like Trump

[FlyHelicopters]

Which is why Trump has his name brand shirts made in Mexico and his other products are made in China.

Again, you're missing the point...

People support Trump because he SAYS he'll do something about it. I have no idea if he will, and it may not even matter.

Bernie is telling everyone, "free everything", and he couldn't do that either, even if he wanted to.

People are clearly unhappy, and for good reason.

Profit is nice, but is that what we want our society to be all about? If not, then we need to change the rules.

Re:This sort of thing is why people like Trump

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

...Trump keeps saying he'll do something about it.

Yeah, and what he'll do is expand it. Trump loves the whole H-1B idea, and he's said so repeatedly.

Trump: “I’m in favor of people coming into this country legally. And you know what? They can have it any way you want. You can call it visas, you can call it work permits, you can call it anything you want...."

Trump: "We need highly skilled people in this country, and if we can’t do it, we’ll get them in. But, and we do need in Silicon Valley, we absolutely have to have."

Trump’s answer during the Megyn Kelly interview was consistent with his answer during the CNBC debate. He said again that Silicon Valley needs highly skilled workers, and showed his support for the H-1B program. Further, he appeared to support employers sponsoring H-1B workers for green cards, saying, “We absolutely have to be able to keep the brain power in this country.”

Also, he said, “I know the H-1B. I know the H2B. Nobody knows it better than me. I’m a businessman. These are laws. These are regulations. These are rules. We’re allowed to do it. I will take advantage of it; they’re the laws. But I’m the one that knows how to change it. Nobody else on this dais knows how to change it like I do, believe me.”

Re:This sort of thing is why people like Trump

[AK Marc]

Bernie's "free everything" has a funding plan that pays for all of it, and doesn't grow the debt. Only his haters imply the plan can't work, when it's about the same as everyone else's, with just a few numbers changed.

Re:This sort of thing is why people like Trump

[smooth wombat]

No, I got your point. I was showing the hypocrisy of those who blindly support him.

He says he'll bring jobs back to America yet refuses to manufacturer his own products in this country.

He say's the economy sucks yet he's making money at it by not employing Americans.

He talks about how much his stuff is worth, such as a golf course, yet his accountants value the same property at 1/10 what he says, thus depriving the community of taxes.

I read his book, Art of the Deal, way back when (unlike others just now jumping on the band wagon). In it he openly describes how he deceived and lied to banks to get his loans for the casinos in Atlantic City.

His famed Trump University? Nothing but a money-making scheme to get people to hand over their money. Even the people who used to work for him state it was all a big lie.

But none of this matters to his supporters. Not even the fact he considers failure (i.e bankruptcy) his first option rather than the last will dissuade those who are pissed a black guy is in office, the stock market is at its highest levels ever, all the jobs lost by the last president have been recovered and then some and gas prices are low. All they want to hear are platitudes and bloviating from a white guy who is on his third marriage.

Re:This sort of thing is why people like Trump

[CaptainDork]

There's a larger point to be made here.

Let's review our basic civics classes from back in elementary school and ask ourselves the test question. "What are the three branches of American government?"

Then let's ask ourselves which branch of government makes laws and provides for funding of issues like monitoring Muslims, building Walls, deporting 11 million people, kicking the fuck out of ISIS, changing tax laws, or even making America great again?

Re: This sort of thing is why people like Trump

[ogdenk]

Yep and the corrupt oligarch who flip-flops on every single issue every time she's handed a big wad of cash is any better.

I was willing to give Bernie a chance but not Hillary. Not ever. She's insane and completely fake. She's just as bad a narcissistic psychopath as Trump if not worse. Trump is an idiot and will be completely ineffective as a president as well as being stonewalled at every turn. I can deal with 4 years of zero progress and he'll help further the destruction of the GOP allowing a 3rd party to eventually rise. I'm OK with that.

Clinton OTOH I absolutely KNOW will try to strip me of my rights. Trump will leave me alone and his crazier ideas will never pass. If Trump wins, it's because the Dems and media screwed Bernie over while labeling him as an unelectable commie.

Me? I'm back to my usual Libertarian vote but I was willing to put up with the Social Democrat who was reasonably honest. Gary Johnson 2016! #FeelTheJohnson

Re:This sort of thing is why people like Trump

[losfromla]

30 years ago we had free, or next to free college in California. All the way through a Doctorate at the public universities UCs and CSUs, some of which were also world class.

Re: This sort of thing is why people like Trump

[NotQuiteReal]

Chose one:
[ ] Hillary - lying, cheating, corrupt politician who will deliver status quo, leaning left.
[ ] The Donald - Exaggerating bullshit artist who will deliver status quo (after hiring help), leaning ? (talks right, does left)
[ ] A Circus - multiple 3rd party candidates all jump in the race and the election is a free-for-all, winner will deliver status quo...


The biggest issue is who gets to nominate the next few Supreme Court justices... Hillary will be left, but tough to get thru the Senate, so maybe moderate. Trump will be more moderate straight-up, so maybe the results are the same either way.

Wait, did I just imply the election means nothing? (in results)

But a Trump victory would at least shake up the "establishment"... (but I wouldn't be surprised by the Circus scenario before November.)

Re: This sort of thing is why people like Trump

[rtb61]

Damn the Clinton political trolls are out in force. Seriously blaming Trump for the current state of out sourcing and H1B scammed major salary cuts is just so right wing daft, especially doing it on /. It is only the PR bubble that keeps it going, believing their own lies and believing everyone else believes (professional liars caught up in their own delusion of superiority). It comes off really lame and stupid blaming someone for something they adamantly had no control over and just straight up loses far more than it gains.

They should save the silly stuff for cheetos forums, where the sheep congregate, it just comes off a really lame and a reason to counter, not for any political reason but just to fuck up loathsome PR firms trolling forums.

I think Dr Jill Stein is the far better candidate better than Bernie Sanders and the even the Libertarian candidate is better than the other two. Perhaps the independents can throw the whole thing into chaos and ensure the other two are knocked out of the running. The Hillary Clinton paid trolls are certainly seem to be trying to make it happen in their clumsy right wing propaganda style. Typical of professionals trollers they are at the top of every forum thread, only to be shot down throughout the rest of the thread, so to those morons, really think you are winning, or just stinking up the place and losing.

Re: This sort of thing is why people like Trump

[ogdenk]

She was a big supporter of TPP until she flipped recently for the purpose of vote whoring. She'll flip again. Her and her husband supported that whole "Clipper Chip" fiasco and she is clearly anti-encryption. She supports criminalizing "hate speech". She supported CA's draconian 3-strikes BS. She absolutely hates the 2nd amendment. She's stated in the past that she'd happily engage in gun confiscation given half a chance.

Basically, she's an anti-liberty statist who has absolutely no qualms against screwing over anyone and everyone when it's convenient for her.

And don't think I'm saying Trump is better, he's not and I don't believe for a second he'll do anything about situations like TFA states. There's a reason the Libertarians are polling in the double digits and that can only be a good thing.

Re: This sort of thing is why people like Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

Better question: which branch ENFORCES the laws?

As in, it's already illegal to hire an Indian, er, H1-B, when an American is available. Clearly that's the case here and everywhere else. Why do we keep reading about people training their foreign replacements when it's not supposed to be happening, and why aren't executives in jail already?

Re:This sort of thing is why people like Trump

[sociocapitalist]

IIRC, Bernie's plan was "significantly increase taxes on the middle class", which might actually work, assuming the economy doesn't tank as a result of the taxes. I like his honesty. When politicians say "tax the rich" what they always mean is "increase taxes on the middle class", but people keep falling for that lie.

You could have taken three seconds to check before making such an inaccurate statement.

https://berniesanders.com/issu...

Bernie is the only sane hope for change at this time.

The most disgusting part..

[subk]

..Is that the company's sales are up 15% from 2015, and "represents the 10th consecutive year of record results".

Greedy bastards, plain and simple.

Re:The most disgusting part..

[supernova87a]

Do you hold yourself to the same standard? When you have reached some certain level of salary, do you give up a raise because you have earned enough and it's not reasonable for you to accept more for your efforts? Are you a greedy bastard when you advocate for a higher salary, instead of allowing a summer intern to be hired?

I just don't buy this logic. If a corporation, operating under the rules set by the government and regulators, can increase its profit and continue providing its services, why would it not do so? I don't see in law any requirement that companies have social welfare or domestic employment goals in their incorporation requirements

If we're unhappy with the results of this behavior, then we should set new rules. But blaming them for following the incentives we've set is silly.

Re:The most disgusting part..

[DiSKiLLeR]

Pretty much this.

I'm in favour of making H-1B have am minimum $120-$150k salary.

So it can only be used for skilled labour.

Re:The most disgusting part..

[dgatwood]

<sarcasm>But, but, but... regulations are bad. We should let the market decide....</sarcasm>

Yeah, this falls under the category of C*Os being crooks and lying on their H1B applications. That should result in jail time for everyone involved even tangentially in the decision. Fraud is a felony.

Re:The most disgusting part..

[Applehu Akbar]

"But how to fix it? Make it illegal to outsource offshore? Or even outsource in-shore?"

Eliminate the whole H-1B visa peonage category. If you want to come to the US to work, come as a regular immigrant. Let there be just one category of immigration, starting with getting a permanent resident visa. This benefits you as an immigrant, because it gives you same rights everyone else has, including being able to complain without being shipped back by your overseer, and puts you on the same basis as other workers in your area.

Re:The most disgusting part..

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see in law any requirement that companies have social welfare or domestic employment goals in their incorporation requirements.

This isn't true everywhere, and wasn't always true even in America. Certain countries, like Germany, require that board members consider the welfare of certain constituents such as employees and the public. It's a perfectly reasonable requirement, since the corporate charter grants certain benefits to the corporation that it doesn't grant to individuals. For example, incorporation protects its shareholders from liability, special tax rates, etc.

Re:The most disgusting part..

[murdocj]

Inflation??? are you nuts? It's running 1-2% right now, it can't get lower.

Re:The most disgusting part..

[Harlequin80]

I'm not familiar with the exact rules around h1-b visas but Australia has a visa called the 457 which allows an employer to bring someone into the country in order to perform a role that they were unable to source someone for locally. The process is not an easy one to go through and the documentation that you have to provide to the department of immigration is significant. This was a visa that I utilised to bring people into the country to work for me, so I know how hard those visas are to get.

The process starts with the company being vetted by Immi (http://www.border.gov.au/) which takes about 6 months, the end of which you are given a maximum allocation of 457s you are allowed to have. I was given 3. Once that is completed you go through the process of submitting the person that you want to employ along with supporting evidence of the searching you have done for a local person, the training and development you have given your staff to show you are trying to develop those skills, and a huge amount of information showing that the person you want to bring in will be paid the same as what Australians working in that role are being paid. In my case I had others working in the same role so I was able to put them forward as direct comparisons along with a cross sample of adverts by others companies looking for the same people with their salaries.

The assessment process for the applications would take about 4 weeks. Once someone started I had responsibility to cover any medical costs that they would incur and should they decide to return to the country of origin or I let them go I was responsible for full relocating them home. In addition because they already had a 457 visa they could transfer that, relatively easily, to another employer that was pre qualified. So during my time employing people on 457s I did lose one after 2 years to a different company.

Now for how to control for abuse. In Australia you are audited by IMMI at random intervals where you have to prove that you are maintaining the requirements of the visa. This includes that the person remains being paid at parity to a domestic worker, that you aren't using the "I will send you home unless you work harder" as a stick and a couple of other conditions. If you are found in breach of ANY of those you lose your qualified status and as a result lose ALL your 457s in one go and can't hire any others for 10 years. Leaving out the cost of relocating multiple people in one go you are going to lose multiple critical staff in one go and you will find it very hard to replace them.

If you follow these rules there is no incentive to use outside 457 labour, in fact you're better off not. So the only reason you will is if you genuinely can't find the person you need. Currently in Australia there are around 85,000 people working on 457 visas (I'm only counting the principals not their dependants who also have a right to work) out of a workforce of 12 million.

Re:The most disgusting part..

[undefinedreference]

Interesting idea that I could get behind... I'd say 2x prevailing wages for the skillset/title and a minimum of 2x average household income would be sufficient to make it unpalatable to use an H-1B for anything short of someone you legitimately cannot find or train. It'd also drive local wages up for anything in demand because they could save money by hiring local vs. hiring someone on a visa. It'd create fierce competition among the best and brightest all over the world to get in on the program because it'd give them instant high salaries, increase local salaries to what the market would actually bear for the skills, draw more people into unskilled work they consider below them (because they could live on the now-increased incomes), etc. It'd also kill a lot of crufty companies that aren't actively profitable in their space to make way for ones that will be. Everyone would win except MBAs trying to goose quarterly statements.

Re:The most disgusting part..

[forty-2]

This will continue to happen until it is a dangerous practice. Dangerous on a personal level. It continues to amaze and disappoint me that there aren't more (any?) stories of high ranking executives and officers being found mysteriously disemboweled.
"Gee wiz, I really would like to outsource this entire department to shitfuckastan, and find the carrot juuuuust big enough to keep the staff here to train their replacement, but I sure am worried about my entire family being slowly murdered and eaten in front of me when I get home"
I know that's not actually how the world works, but a boy can dream.

Re:Time for a paradigm shift

[robocord]

IT, however bad it is, is a bed of roses compared to driving a truck.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/05/truck-stop/481926/

How often is H-1B used legitimately?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not simply stop granting H-1B visas altogether?

This is not an IT thing

[moorley]

I worked 3 contracts for HP.

Each of them ended the same way. After years of successful operation, and after a few failed attempts, they eventually handed the operations to another group either outsourced or over seas.

The very core of an IT person is employing automation. We work to handle more than we could before. We build systems and procedures that ensure against failure and allow for our obsolescence.

I've never minded it.

But this is no longer an IT thing. Any job can be outsourced and automated.

You can't compete

[rsilvergun]

With India. You just can't. Their quality of life is so much lower and they have so many desperate people. I can't compete with people who lack clean air, water and food security unless I give up those things.

One-issue voter (re: Trump)

[Tablizer]

I agree the H1B program is a farce per "skill shortage," and glad Mr. Trump has highlighted the issue in his campaign, but I'm not a one-issue voter.

I believe Mr. Trump will likely be a train-wreck in foreign policy, offending leaders and countries far and wide, perhaps triggering wars.

USA knows him from TV over the years and we take him with a grain of salt. The rest of the world won't.

I'd rather be unemployed than an apocalyptic zombie.

Re:One-issue voter (re: Trump)

[sg_oneill]

So, exactly like the Obama administration then?

Outside of a few beligerant countries. Obama is really well liked internationally. I'm not sure this is a valid comparison?

I mean I have no idea what the opinion of him is in the US. But out here in the non US, he's generally quite liked. Basically, he's not Bush.

Re:One-issue voter (re: Trump)

[GNious]

But out here in the non US, he's generally quite liked. Basically, he's not Bush.

Didn't they give him a Nobel prize for not being Bush?

Mass Quit Together, Unionize, Make it Painful

[Proudrooster]

Come on guys, fight fire with fire! Everyone walk together! Everyone! Maybe even leave a few fires burning, not that you caused any. Get together and agree on your severance package and demands present it to the company as a group. Make it painful.

They can't do this easily without you. Make them give you a golden parachute.

Folks, we are Americans! Our forefathers sailed the oceans on wooden ships the size of school bus. We are hearty, tough, and are not to be trifled with.

We have to stop getting trampled. This is not who we are.

Get together. Stand together. Fight the man together.

Take it to social media.

Blog it.

Make noise.

These jerks are taking your jobs and your livelihoods. If this company wants to move to India, let them go sell their shit in India, but make sure another American doesn't do business with them.

Make sure TRUMP spouts their name at his rallies and what a disgrace this company is to the USA.

Look outside your tunnel. Get your friends involved. It is time to man up and bring it!

And it would be a total shame if you put up a kickstarter page to help you all stick together through this.

Maybe a sympathetic hacking group would get involved to create mayhem until you are able to get back in the saddle.

It is time to drop the hammer and get tough. They do not tell you what you get as severance, you tell them. You are not a dog being fed scraps.

Knowledge is power. Don't go gently into that dark night!

Keep telling yourselves unions are bad...

[frank_adrian314159]

After all, they're the only thing that has ever worked against a bunch of asshat employers.

Time for a professional organization

[ErichTheRed]

We can't call it a union (although the CWA just won their 6-week fight against Verizon, so there's that..) but a professional organization is what's needed. A professional organization can hire lobbyists, who will pay Congresspersons whatever is necessary to counteract the lobbyists on the business side. There has to be a way to level the H-1B playing field so body shops can't abuse it, and no one company or set of companies gets a huge advantage. If I were king that's the first thing I would do - cancel the entire program temporarily across the board so no one can keep profiting from it, sort out reasonable limits on it, and restart it alongside a professional organization. The organization would act like a combination of the AMA and state licensing boards, ensuring a high barrier of entry into the profession (i.e. no more coder bootcamp yahoos or paper MCSEs.) It would also enforce quality, make members responsible for messes they create, etc.

The other thing that a professional organization can offer is a reasonably standard training progression through an apprentice-style program. The big offshorings I've read about lately have been at utility companies, Disney and insurance companies. I wonder how many of those jobs they got rid of were mainframe-related. I work in the airline IT industry and it is getting extremely hard to find people to replace the retiring mainframers, and these people will be needed for quite a while. If you had a bunch of apprentice-level people working with the older guys and learning that skill set as one of a broad set of other skill sets, you wouldn't have the knee-jerk offshoring reaction. Plus, you could have a mix of "master craftsmen" and apprentices to spread out the salary levels. Yes, people with 25 years' experience and a family to support are more expensive than fresh grads who don't even have a goldfish to care for and can move tomorrow if needed.

I really think this is the only way to ensure that we have a steady supply of new people coming into the field. Not every system out there is built in Web Framework of the Month; I've been lucky to have the opportunity to work in lots of IT subspecialties with a diverse set of systems, ancient and new. I worry that new people aren't going to get this opportunity because Tata and Cognizant are abusing the H-1B program. Mainframes are ancient, but some of the core banking, government, airline, utility and insurance systems have decades of business logic embedded in them. TCS and the like have the perfect sales pitch for mainframe-dependent CEOs -- "fire your senior guys, sign here and we'll put 50,000 coders on the project tomorrow; you won't even know you have a mainframe."