Fedora 24 Featuring GNOME 3.20, Tons Of Improvements Released (betanews.com)

After several delays, the Fedora Project on Tuesday released Fedora 24 (download link), the latest version of its Linux-based operating system. Fedora 24 brings with it a number of interesting features and changes, including the GNOME 3.20 desktop environment. The latest version of GNOME comes with media-player controls in the notification panel, and improved search feature in the Files application. New GNOME will also let you easily upgrade to Fedora 25, by simply using its Software application. There's also improved font-rendering. Among other things Fedora 24 has an upgraded version of glibc, or GNU C Library, which comes with improved performance and bug fixes across the entire operating system. You can learn more about the features at TechRepublic..

Comments

w00t!

[IMightB]

I admit it's not fashionable, but I am a Fedora/CentOS/RH fanboy. Not only is Fedora offer the latest and greatest for the Desktop, but they offer enterprise level integrations and features that no other can match. FreeIPA anyone?!

Re:w00t!

[Blaskowicz]

I can't help it.. So, it comes with free beer? That's the feature most of us will be interested in! Even better if it repeals tax increases on beer!

Re:w00t!

[IMightB]

Think AD for linux, unix, excellent CLI, UI tools, controls DNS, sudo, RBAD, HBAC, kerberos, etc etc. integrates with AD, SAML and many other things. Basically, setups up and easily unifies all the hard boring behind the scenes stuff that no one but SA's care about. If it's good enough for CERN, then it's good enough for me.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=freeipa

Re:w00t!

[WallyL]

Me too: Fedora/RH/CentOS user here. Debian packages just need too much attention (a2enmod a2ensite, wtf?) The command yum provide */file beats anything in apt I've come across. I even have installed a demo instance of FreeIPA to replace my Windows AD domain. I need to start testing it again and go entirely off-MS.

Re:w00t!

[iggymanz]

that's fine but I hope you don't put that GNOME crap on it, use a good desktop like MATE or Cinnamon

Re:w00t!

[Anonymous Coward]

Now if they could only fix their init system.

Re:w00t!

[Anonymous Coward]

Another unfashionable Fedora devotee here. Just the right blend of polish and bleeding edge (it's a proving ground, not a testing ground), and I too love FreeIPA.

And yeah, I also like systemd. Go ahead, SysVinit hipsters, bugger off to a BSD. Your hate only makes me stronger.

Re:w00t!

[mea2214]

I run mostly Fedora/CentOS as well but my workstation where I am typing this is Fedora 14 because it's the last stable distro before all the innovators started making things "better." If I need a more modern OS that's what VMs and ssh are for.

Re:w00t!

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, you don't need to use a2enmod or a2ensite, those are just convenience functions. You can put the sites/modules you want in the proper directories without running any commands. Also, the "yum provide" command is basically the same as the "apt-file" command. I don't think one has a clear advantage over the other.

Re:w00t!

[Dadoo]

I am a Fedora/CentOS/RH fanboy.

I used to be, too, but Fedora hasn't been really good since 14 or 15; they ruined it when they upgraded to Gnome 3. I prefer KDE but Fedora 14 was so good, I didn't care it was easier to use it with Gnome. (It would be nice if they'd support KDE better.)

Re:w00t!

[dcollins117]

You can put the sites/modules you want in the proper directories without running any commands.

How do you do that? Just thinking about it? Because otherwise you will have to use at least one command.

Re:w00t!

[Dog-Cow]

Debian is just that good.

Re:w00t!

[inode_buddha]

Yep, 14 was the last one for me. I was exclusively a RH guy all the way from RH5 up to FC14. (and for some reason the weenies here can't handle it, so I gather downmods...)

Re: w00t!

[Anonymous Coward]

Redhat Shills, set phasers to "obvious!"

Re: w00t!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you mean dnf? Yum seems to be depricated these days

Re:w00t!

[lucm]

The command yum

yum is gone, now it's dnf and do you know what dnf stands for? Absolutely nothing, the guy was just looking for a short name that wasn't taken.

Well we all know it won't live long, package management will end up in systemd like evertything else soon enough. Probably rpmctl or something like that.

I can't believe this train wreck.

But other than that and the usual pulseaudio bugs, yes, Fedora is awesome, second to none at the moment.

Re:w00t!

[speederaser]

I run mostly Fedora/CentOS as well but my workstation where I am typing this is Fedora 14 because it's the last stable distro before all the innovators started making things "better."

Fedora 11 here, for the same reason. I tried F24 beta recently and the installer was a horror show selecting disk space and mount points. At one point something I tried gave me the error "Failed to add new device - local variable 'e' referenced before assignment". When I finally got a mount point selected, the final selection area showed a different partition with a disk size unrelated to the partition I selected or the wrong partition it chose. My trust was gone at that point and I gave up. I didn't even file any bugs, I didn't know where to start.

Now that was beta software, so I was willing to cut them some slack. Next I tried installing Centos 7 with the same UI-horror show installer and didn't get much further, with the selected partitions still screwed up. There are some posts online with blow-by-blow directions to trick it into doing what you want. I shouldn't have to trick the installer, this stuff used to be breeze in F11/F14 days.

BTW, what I was trying to was install to pre-built partitions running software RAID, on disks with other partitions I wanted to keep. Apparently Redhat can't do this any more. I tried Ubuntu and the desktop version didn't even know about software RAID.

Re:w00t!

[dbIII]

A very good thing that "dnf" does (systemd developers take special note) is that it will accept the syntax of the thing that it is replacing. Typing "yum upgrade" on a new Fedora system will pass the task off to "dnf" and it will do the job for you as if "yum" was still on the system.

As for systemd, it only bothers me at two times - startups and shutdowns. Sometimes it hangs and won't get the job done which makes it like MS Windows years back when the only choice at times was to go for the reset button or power button. That's life on the bleeding edge these days I suppose but someone should teach Lennart P. not to unleash his shit until it has reached at least beta quality and can no longer be described as shit.

Re:w00t!

[lucm]

The systemd people are desktop people. That's their focus and their background (lookup systemd and see the website where it's hosted). But not only are those people half-baking things and playing sorcerer's apprentice, they also have very little concerns for the vast majority of linux use cases, i.e. servers.

It's a fascinating situation, as if the bank tellers had taken over the bank and were making decision based on their limited exposure to how the bank was actually making money. And everybody sits around and let this happen, and other banks start doing the same. That's PhD material for sure, social science people will come up with a name for this syndrome at some point, like they did with the Stockholm syndrome. The Poettering syndrome maybe.

Re: w00t!

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats nvidia binary driver. Sometimes it hangs for me too and only hw reset will work. Im on ubuntu.

Re:w00t!

[dbIII]

The Daniel Stone "truth about Wayland" video of him presenting his unfinished powerpoint presentation is a good example of that attitude. Want to use software more than a couple of years old or use something other than a tablet? If you want that then to him you are an irrelevant dinosaur that should be dead already. WTF is wrong with these kids?

Re:w00t!

[donaldm]

I can't help it.. So, it comes with free beer? That's the feature most of us will be interested in! Even better if it repeals tax increases on beer!

Well it's not much but if you run the html5 test , I get the following out of a possible 555 ponts. With exception of "Qupzilla" I get the same results in Fedora 23 as well.

Chrome - 501
Firefox - 478
Konqueror - 355
Qupzilla - 521 - This is a new browser in Fedora 24

It must be noted that I have only installed Fedora 24 in a virtual machine but not on my hardware yet. So far I have not seen any issues with Fedora 24 and will be installing it after I have done my due diligence such as backups and saving configuration files (normally all in /etc).

Basically, I will do what is called a full file-system installation rather than an update. It looks like all this will take: 1) About 20 minutes for the installation. 2) About 20 minutes to update all my configuration files and get some additional applications. 3) About 30 to 40 minutes for updates. By doing this I will have a nice clean install.

Even though I will have done my user backups I probably won't need them unless I make a mistake (very unlikely) since I don't reformat my user file-systems. Of course, if I do decide to reformat my user file-systems then they will take hours to recover. but even if I go down this path I will still be able to use the system but it won't be optimal until my recovery compleats.

Re:w00t!

[donaldm]

Me too: Fedora/RH/CentOS user here. Debian packages just need too much attention (a2enmod a2ensite, wtf?) The command yum provide */file beats anything in apt I've come across. I even have installed a demo instance of FreeIPA to replace my Windows AD domain. I need to start testing it again and go entirely off-MS.

From Fedora 23 on dnf has replaced yum. Basically dnf is really dandied yum so not allot has changed.

Fedora like most Linux distros has had a GUI installer or package manager for years which is every bit as functional as the using command line.

As for using MS Windows try installing Windows 10 in a virtual machine (you can get the ISO free from Microsoft) and then look at all the features that are turned on by default. Good luck getting rid of all the telemetry although most people with a bit of technical savvy can go a long way to locking down this IMHO Malware but this is way out of the capabilities of most people.

Why did I just call Windows 10 Malware? Well here is the definition of Malware , now compare what Windows 10 has been doing to get you to install it and in addition look at what is configured under Windows 10 by default. If you agree with what Microsoft has been doing I hope you like your gold plated chains.

Re: w00t!

[donaldm]

Redhat Shills, set phasers to "obvious!"

Shields up, return fire.

Captain all I can see on the scanners is debris, shall I search for survivors?

Belay that Ensign, our phasers and photon torpedos are too powerful, all we can do is pray for their misguided souls.

Re: w00t!

[dbIII]

It's several things. It's even happened with a USB wireless mouse dongle, ZFS and a couple of other things a few years back that have hopefully been fixed in the meantime.

Re:w00t!

[donaldm]

I run mostly Fedora/CentOS as well but my workstation where I am typing this is Fedora 14 because it's the last stable distro before all the innovators started making things "better." If I need a more modern OS that's what VMs and ssh are for.

Wow! Fedora 14 (late 2010 to late 2011) and saying that it's the last stable distro boy I don't even know why you bother. I just put Fedora 24 on a virtual machine under Fedora 23 and it took an exhausting 20 minutes, I mean having to click on the install icon, then the language (it was already selected) and then select "Install" was hard but then having to create a root password followed by a user name and password really is incredibly difficult. Oh! It works.

Re:w00t!

[Anonymous Coward]

I want to run the latest software on my 1200/75 baud modem and 30 year old monitor.

Damn them. Everyone should build their NEW software to run on these.

Re:w00t!

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a weird one.

My machine acts as a store for media. Shared via Samba.

I used to use Fedora. I tried Debian.

The Raspberry PI I use would enumerate folders REALLY slowly on Fedora.

Debian it was REALLY quick.

I'm assuming it as a config difference between them rather than some fundamental issue, but I never did figure it out and switched to Debian.

Re:w00t!

[lsatenstein]

I admit it's not fashionable, but I am a Fedora/CentOS/RH fanboy. Not only is Fedora offer the latest and greatest for the Desktop, but they offer enterprise level integrations and features that no other can match. FreeIPA anyone?!

I was, but this time, my standard is Fedora23. My UPS does not show up with Fedora24. upower-0.99.4.tar.xz does not compile with Fedora24
I won't run a SSD based system if when necessary, the UPS can't tell the computer to "shutdown now / poweroff "

With spinning disks, any file corruption can be usually repaired on reboot with the ext4 or xfs journal.
With SSDs, the entire SSD can be accidentally wiped out due to an unplanned shutdown.

Re:w00t!

[Anonymous Coward]

I run mostly Fedora/CentOS as well but my workstation where I am typing this is Fedora 14 because it's the last stable distro before all the innovators started making things "better." If I need a more modern OS that's what VMs and ssh are for.

Why don't you use CentOS 6 then? It's basically Fedora 14 except it didn't stop getting updates five years ago.

fedora 24

[Anonymous Coward]

does it still have systemd and gnome3? If so, don't want.

Re:fedora 24

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't spell it "systemd"

Spell it "SystemD"

That way it looks like an ASCII penis.

Re:fedora 24

[LichtSpektren]

If only Dr. Freud were alive today to study this specimen. He would shit his pants.

Re: fedora 24

[Anonymous Coward]

The saddest thing is that you cannot seem to handle all the deserved negative feedback and criticism.

These people keep bitching not because they are shills (whose shills?), but because they really upset about it.

The quick solution is that you ignore them if you don't agree with them. It is certainly not reasonable to expect the negative comments to disappear while the situation remains as it is.

What about systemd?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it use systemd?

Fedora 24 is awesome 'cause you can upgrade to 25?

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

>> New GNOME (in Fedora 24) will also let you easily upgrade to Fedora 25

Ummm...that's one of your "tons of improvements"?

did they remove systemd ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Gnome is so broken they had to "fix it" by making systemd kill all user processes when a user exits. So they fixed something by breaking a whole lot more.

Please wake me up when systemd is removed.

Re:did they remove systemd ?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you idiot. They did not do that.

systemd has a new feature that allows a system administrator to control what users allow which programs to persist after the user exits. That was exceedingly difficult to do. Its optional, Fedora is using it but has it set by default to allow all users to keep running processes after exit.

You're thinking of Debian, who just upgraded and took the defaults from the systemd package without really bothering to figure out what they did.

Re: did they remove systemd ?

[Anonymous Coward]

If systemd's default settings cause unexpected breakage of software that has worked just fine for many years, then I can't see that as anything other than a bug with systemd. Systend's default settings are wrong in this case. They are the bug causing regressions.

Re:did they remove systemd ?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're thinking of Debian, who just upgraded and took the defaults from the systemd package without really bothering to figure out what they did.

Then what was the point systemd changing if you're just going to complain that it's everyone else's job to change it back? Of course, systemd refuses to change it back themselves (or just fixing their bug the right way by SIGHUPing the process tree, which is what Unix did for decades to solve the issue of processes being left running after logging out, but this way is New and Improved&TM; and fuck the principle of least surprise, it's not like systemd has a stable production 1.0 version yet so nobody should be surprised by everything changing every single update).

Re:They haven't fixed what is wrong with it

[Anonymous Coward]

Send my regards to 2003 while you're there LOL

Re:Fedora 24 is awesome 'cause you can upgrade to

[geek]

>> New GNOME (in Fedora 24) will also let you easily upgrade to Fedora 25

Ummm...that's one of your "tons of improvements"?

Unfortunately yes. Fedora has had a huge problem with upgrades in the past. They believe they have finally fixed that.

So like this is windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

What is it good for?

Someone needs to revive the "BSD is dying" troll

[Anonymous Coward]

"os dilettante dabblers" was the first thing I thought of when I read this article, written as if installing a new OS is something people should look forward to.

So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

If Fedora is so "great", why has its software caused so much anger and strife within the Linux community?

I know some people will try to downplay this anger, wrongly claiming it's the work of "a small number of trolls" or blaming it on "loudmouth neckbeards" or some other nonsense like that. But I think the problem is actually far more widespread than that.

I see so much anger over GNOME 3 and systemd here. I see so much anger about GNOME 3 and systemd at HN. I see so much anger about GNOME 3 and systemd at Reddit. I see so much anger about GNOME 3 and systemd on the numerous Linux distro mailing lists I'm subscribed to. I see so much anger about GNOME 3 and systemd in the many bug trackers that are out there. It's not isolated anger. It permeates the entire Linux community and ecosystem!

Then there are all of the people who are angry but don't express it online. I bet a lot of them just say "fuck it" to Linux. They just use FreeBSD, or OS X, or even Windows without saying a thing. This is probably why Linux's share of the desktop market is at most 2%, and that's being generous.

I've followed the Linux and open source communities for decades now, and I've never seen as much strife and outrage as I've seen lately. I've never seen so many disappointed Linux users. It's not like the old days, where Linux users were excited about new releases of major software like GNOME. Now they fear those releases, wondering what has been screwed up.

The most interesting aspect is that so much of this anger actually centers around a few specific projects: GNOME 3, systemd, and PulseAudio. They all naturally attract angry and upset comments, and the only time we see anybody say anything positive about them is in some attempt to rebut the anger expressed by somebody else!

All in all, I think that relatively small parts of the Linux ecosystem and driving away lots of users, or at the very least making them miserable, without offering any tangible benefits. This does not bode well for the future of Linux! Linux only succeeds when it's hidden away and almost invisible, like in the case of Android. Otherwise, people tend to really dislike Linux and its modern user land software.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[chipschap]

.... Then there are all of the people who are angry but don't express it online. I bet a lot of them just say "fuck it" to Linux. They just use FreeBSD, or OS X, or even Windows without saying a thing. This is probably why Linux's share of the desktop market is at most 2%, and that's being generous. ...

I don't deny that some people give up because they are angry about X, Y, or Z. But I think, pure and simple, the reason Linux's desktop share is so low is that nearly every computer you buy comes with either Windows or Mac OS pre-installed, and people simply aren't going to change the operating system (and in most cases wouldn't quite know how to do that either).

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[LichtSpektren]

I'm not sure why you Anonymous Cowards think you're inciting any change when your troll of every single Linux-related news story has been exactly the same for the past five years, but I'll bite again.

Fedora has nothing to do with GNOME, systemd, or PulseAudio. Firstly, Fedora is developed by the Fedora Project. Secondly, GNOME is developed by the GNOME Foundation. Thirdly, systemd and PulseAudio are developed mostly by employees of Red Hat, but lots of others contribute to them, and they are distributed by freedesktop.org. You can say "oh well they're all funded by Red Hat so they're all really from the same source," but that's dubious logic. You could say the Linux kernel is Red Hat's project by the same logic.

If you hate GNOME Shell, use a different DE. I also hate it and I don't use it. If you hate PulseAudio, uninstall it and use something else to your like. If you don't like systemd, many distros still maintain SysVinit-core, or you could use Slackware or Devuan or Gentoo or CRUX because they don't ship systemd as the default init system.

Again and again you Anonymous Cowards proclaim a great upheaval over the above issues, but in real life, this doesn't seem to be the case; the user base, developer base, support base, and most clearly of all the *financials* of all the major Linux companies that ship distros with GNOME and PulseAudio and systemd (Canonical, SUSE, Red Hat, IBM, Oracle) are all doing just great.

Then there are all of the people who are angry but don't express it online. I bet a lot of them just say "fuck it" to Linux. They just use FreeBSD, or OS X, or even Windows without saying a thing. This is probably why Linux's share of the desktop market is at most 2%, and that's being generous.

The Linux desktop market share is higher than it was before systemd and GNOME 3 were widely adopted.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[blackomegax]

My thoughts? a bunch of elitist skiddies getting their panties in a bunch over their territory being easier to access. They LIKE things intuitive (shell), hard (arch install) and being an absolute PITA, so they can keep their foothold of elitism in knowing how to tweak the widgets *just so*. Double so for linux sysadmins who like the job stability.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[iggymanz]

cut the bullshit.

Redhat sponsors Fedora.

Redhat pushes badly engineered garage like systemd and GNOME, including in Fedora.

Fedora is where RedHat tries its random brain farts out on the redhat guinea pigs, aka Fedora users.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[LichtSpektren]

cut the bullshit.

Redhat sponsors Fedora.

Redhat pushes badly engineered garage like systemd and GNOME, including in Fedora.

Fedora is where RedHat tries its random brain farts out on the redhat guinea pigs, aka Fedora users.

Okay? And what's your point?

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would've been very, very happy if my Debian system had gotten to a login prompt, never mind a non-rescue shell, after a system update installed systemd! But it wouldn't even get that far.

People are angry about systemd because, like the many bug reports and mailing list questions clearly indicate, systemd breaks a lot! And if it isn't breaking itself, then it breaks something else! It was less than a month ago that systemd changes broke the screen and tmux applications!

We started using Linux because it worked better than Windows and Mac OS. It was more reliable, and offered us more choice and freedom. But all of that is being taken away. We no longer have choice and freedom; all of the major distros force systemd on us by default, and many force GNOME 3 on us. Now we're finding that software like systemd and GNOME 3 doesn't work better than the competitors; it many ways it's so much worse!

We're moving on. We see that the Linux we once knew and loved is long dead. We're moving to FreeBSD. We're moving to OS X. Some of us are even moving back to Windows! Linux is a lost cause to us, and an inferior product.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[inode_buddha]

Somebody mod this guy up, he's right. Its the main reason why I switched away from the RH ecosystem. And before anybody tries to throw the "hipster" slur, I'm probably old enough to be your Dad. I've been at this for awhile, and there are good reasons to think the more traditional UNIX way was better.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[LichtSpektren]

I would've been very, very happy if my Debian system had gotten to a login prompt, never mind a non-rescue shell, after a system update installed systemd! But it wouldn't even get that far.

If you're running a bleeding-edge distro where the init system will change during a regular system update, you should expect things to break. Do you also seethe with rage when you install an alpha-release kernel and it doesn't boot?

We're moving on. We see that the Linux we once knew and loved is long dead. We're moving to FreeBSD. We're moving to OS X. Some of us are even moving back to Windows! Linux is a lost cause to us, and an inferior product.

That's nice. Just please stop infesting every article with your nonsensical commentary, thanks.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[LichtSpektren]

Somebody mod this guy up, he's right. Its the main reason why I switched away from the RH ecosystem. And before anybody tries to throw the "hipster" slur, I'm probably old enough to be your Dad. I've been at this for awhile, and there are good reasons to think the more traditional UNIX way was better.

That's great! If you're comfortable with the way you're accustomed to doing things, I have nothing against you. I'm just trying to figure out why so many people shit on the hard work done by FOSS developers, who spend time and money to give stuff to the world entirely for free (as in beer AND speech) and don't force you in any way to use it. I don't like GNOME Shell, but I don't anonymous shit-post every article about Linux. I just don't use it, and I don't suffer from apoplectic fits knowing that some peoples' opinions differ from mine.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[LichtSpektren]

Redhat is crapping in the open source pool, and the sewage has spread

How exactly does one infest a pool where anybody in the world is free to take the parts they want and leave the rest, like a bazaar? Again, if you don't like GNOME or systemd or Pulse Audio or Fedora, don't use them.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Junta]

On the Gnome 3 front, I'll agree that it's probably easier to just go with MATE desktop if you miss Gnome 2 that much. I'm sympathetic, but the fork has been pretty viable, so it's not like there's no recourse.

Similarly for pulseaudio, by and large if it is not well liked, it may be ignored. Also as something relatively 'on the fringe', it's not something I feel like RedHat as an organization particularly cares about. Network Manager is another one in this way *mostly* (non-network manager ways of managing wifi have atrophied).

systemd is a different sort of thing in a couple of ways. One is that given it's role, it is not so simply swapped out at user will. It's one of those core components that is difficult to make selectable (like kernel and glibc). As such a user doesn't have as much individual ability to opt in/out, hence the advanced vitriol, as those who dislike it have relatively little recourse than to whine.

Also, to say that RHAT isn't effectively calling the shots over systemd is slily. Of course they are. It is, at it's core, a part of their strategy. It enables some capabilities they really want for their business in providing orchestration capabilities. The leadership of systemd is within redhat. the leadership of the kernel is outside (though RHAT makes a ton of contributions, they are not the leaders). The leadership role is not some arbitrary detail, it's pretty important, *particularly* in systemd that has such a strong vision of what it wants (contrast with an open source project like openstack that kind of meanders about all over the place).

systemd has caused some headaches and there's frustration because expressing those headaches is meat with mostly useless 'me toos' or dismissive 'you are just trolling'. Not a whole lot of 'well, let's see what we can do to address the specific concerns', but instead calling out such viewpoints as just flat out wrong.

Sure, a lot of it has devolved into inane troll copy/paste posts, but there are legitimate gripes and RedHat is in a key position as the pusher of the technology to be the target of frustration.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Junta]

Further complicating matters, while it may have once been intended to leverage Redhat's then-leading position in the linux desktop market to gauge reactions and test, it scared people off (by being unstable and fickle) to the point where the remaining user base is pretty sycophantic toward Red Hat. So instead of a nice representative userbase to gauge reaction in the general linux ecosystem, it's become an echo chamber of praise for the platform.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

.... Then there are all of the people who are angry but don't express it online. I bet a lot of them just say "fuck it" to Linux. They just use FreeBSD, or OS X, or even Windows without saying a thing. This is probably why Linux's share of the desktop market is at most 2%, and that's being generous. ...

I don't deny that some people give up because they are angry about X, Y, or Z. But I think, pure and simple, the reason Linux's desktop share is so low is that nearly every computer you buy comes with either Windows or Mac OS pre-installed, and people simply aren't going to change the operating system (and in most cases wouldn't quite know how to do that either).

HP and Dell both offer no-OS options, HP offers preinstalled Ubuntu LTS on their machines, both options are at a discount to Windows installations. I haven't looked at other vendors lately.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you hate GNOME Shell, use a different DE. I also hate it and I don't use it. If you hate PulseAudio, uninstall it and use something else to your like.

See, here's the thing. Literally the two most important things most of us do on the computer is (a) interact with it using a keyboard and mouse, and (b) make it play sounds and videos.

Windows and OS X, for all their faults, were consistent about these two things for decades. The UI for Windows was only ruined after 20 years from Win3.1 to Win7, and OSX had only one significant DE change - from Systemwhatever to OS X. And on both systems, audio Just Worked(tm).

Sometimes it really is less about following the latest design fad (ironically, the fads originating from Google, MS, and Apple) and reinventing the wheel because the vendors of sound cards/chipsets generally suck.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[LichtSpektren]

How exactly does one infest a pool where anybody in the world is free to take the parts they want and leave the rest, like a bazaar? Again, if you don't like GNOME or systemd or Pulse Audio or Fedora, don't use them.

Because we don't have the time and inclination to create our own Linux distros. If we have to do that, we might as well just use FreeBSD, Windows, macOS or some other non-Linux OS that doesn't waste our time. The whole point of using a Linux distro is to save us time and save us effort.

We used to be able to switch distros to get a different environment, but those days are long gone now that the major distros all include systemd, and many force GNOME 3 by default, too. Debian and Fedora, which once gave very different experiences, have converged. The other major distros have followed them.

Having to remove systemd, GNOME 3 and other crapware that comes bundled with Linux distros is just as annoying as having to remove crapware that comes bundled with Windows. Having to install replacements for all of this software is even more of a hassle.

We surely aren't going to waste our time with some no-name obscure distro like Devuan, or even oddball distros like Slackware and Gentoo. We don't want to use a Linux distro that may not be around next month, and we don't want to use a Linux distro that's remained in the 1990s, and we don't want to use a Linux distro that requires us to wait hours or days for it to compile software.

Linux used to offer us a lot of benefits. Now it's nothing but a hassle.

So let me get this straight. Maintaining a distro to serve your niche preferences is too much work for you, but you have all the hours in the world to make anonymous shit posts within minutes every time a Linux-related article is posted on Slashdot?

Cry me a river.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[LichtSpektren]

.... Then there are all of the people who are angry but don't express it online. I bet a lot of them just say "fuck it" to Linux. They just use FreeBSD, or OS X, or even Windows without saying a thing. This is probably why Linux's share of the desktop market is at most 2%, and that's being generous. ...

I don't deny that some people give up because they are angry about X, Y, or Z. But I think, pure and simple, the reason Linux's desktop share is so low is that nearly every computer you buy comes with either Windows or Mac OS pre-installed, and people simply aren't going to change the operating system (and in most cases wouldn't quite know how to do that either).

HP and Dell both offer no-OS options, HP offers preinstalled Ubuntu LTS on their machines, both options are at a discount to Windows installations. I haven't looked at other vendors lately.

Do me a favor. Go to Dell's and HP's websites and find me those laptops without Windows pre-installed within 2 minutes. No search engines allowed, you have to start at their home page and click to get there.

Unless you have their websites memorized, it'll probably take you a little longer than 2 minutes. Which goes to show that Linux desktops are really a "behind the counter" product of PC vendors, for the most part. They get no exposure because the vendors fear the wrath of Microsoft, despite being vastly better products.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that the only thing more important than those two things is actually getting the OS to fully boot up. After all, it's difficult to do anything with a computer that doesn't boot properly.

Based on my experience with it so far, systemd is the biggest impediment to my Linux installation successfully booting on a consistent basis.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

I tinkered with Linux a bit back in the late 90's and haven't used it since. I remember often fighting with installations but I was always able to conquer them eventually. I've used Windows ever since though, just because I'm lazy.

When Microsoft decided to make the upkeep of my Windows 7 installs a pain I decided to look into Linux again. I thought that SURELY it was polished as a marble by this point. I've had much more difficulty this time than I did the LAST time that I took an interest. I just assumed that I had become dumber in my old age. But I see so many people like you citing the exact problems that I'm having and then blaming them on systemd that it makes me wonder if I came back just in time to see Linux broken by bad decision making? :|

Re: So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[buchanmilne]

"I would've been very, very happy if my Debian system had gotten to a login prompt, never mind a non-rescue shell, after a system update installed systemd! But it wouldn't even get that far."

Many distros (Fedora, Arch, Opensuse, Mageia etc.) switched to systemd and there were very few complaints. I upgraded distro releases that brought the switch to systemd on a number of systems without any issues.

All of the complaints about "upgrading to systemd broke my system" were "upgrading to Jessie broke my system".

So this experience of upgrading to systemd causing problems seems a bit specific to Debian. Maybe the Debian community should have spent less time arguing about systemd and more time testing upgrading to Jessie.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

Having just purchased a Dell laptop with Linux already installed, I can tell you you're wrong. It took me all of 20 seconds.

Products->Laptops->For Work
Select Linux for your OS
Done

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[blackomegax]

It's like the same 3 autistic dudes on slashdot, reddit, etc, railing against systemd 24/7. Christ, at least i've kissed a girl before.

Re: So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[buchanmilne]

Can you reproduce this on a distro other than Debian?

I have 100 production VMs (growing at about 8 a week as we migrate across) 20 20-core RHEV/ovirt/kvm hypervisors running RHEL7 or Centos7, and systemd hasn't caused any issues.

Yes, you may need to do customisations and troubleshoot service startup issues (usually caused by operator error, and in my case only on non-production VMs) differently, but the consistency is a bigger benefit.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[blackomegax]

nobody is forcing you. Use Void, use Gentoo, write your own DE, use KDE, use budgie for all i care. What level of autism must you have to shitpost 24/7 in this nonsensical manner?

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a Fedora+systemD user, you insensitive clod.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[cfalcon]

This also pisses me off.

I dislike systemd and would replace it if it were easy, which it is not. It is not a dealbreaker for me. I feel all the systemd complaints would vanish in an instant if Devuan spun up for real, or if any one solid distro clearly decided to avoid systemd, or at least support those who don't want to deal with it.

I grouse about pulseaudio but stop shy of levying true hate on it. It does some things very well, I just get ticked when it is randomly incompatible, confused, or decides that one entire core is just for it, for some reason. These errors happen, but not that often. I think it is because it is still newish tbh.

GNOME? I despise. I will never willingly use it. But, it's very easy for me to use XFCE (or another desktop) in Fedora. Just like, super easy. So in this case, I have no complaints.

When I come to a slashdot thread about any thing related to RedHat, there's some systemd hate. Quite honestly, it gets old. Yea yea I don't like it either. That doesn't mean that literally every thread about some cool new thing RedHat did, and especially every thread about Fedora, needs to be people bitching about GNOME and systemd. I'll be running Fedora Core 24 within hours or days (I'll check to make sure everyone else running the same nvidia drivers as me is doing ok, then upgrade), and I'd like to hear people talk about the features sometimes, instead of being drowned out by the same no-news fools. Slashdot will make a systemd topic, or a GNOME topic, and you can shit that up. Maybe I'll join you! But gtfo with every linux topic, most especially every Fedora topic, being this same shit.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[LichtSpektren]

Having just purchased a Dell laptop with Linux already installed, I can tell you you're wrong. It took me all of 20 seconds.

Products->Laptops->For Work Select Linux for your OS Done

You knew exactly where to go, so that doesn't count. Put yourself in the shoes of a regular pleb just searching for a nice laptop to edit some office docs and light web browsing. They're not going to hunt for "Operating System" and specifically choose "FreeDOS and Linux" (yes, that's exactly what it says on Dell's website). If you just go to "Products -> Laptops -> For Work", the page displays almost entirely Windows laptops, with Chromebooks at the very bottom.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, so, Fedora is designed with a philosophy generally liked by Fedora users? Shocking!

The stupidest thing I saw them do was participate in a conversation about how they couldn't name anything with words anymore because everyone's fee-fees was gonna get offended. Their solution to shut up all the whiners was to name everything with numbers instead, and then ignore the people who inevitably claimed that numbers were offensive.

But, the OS is good.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[LichtSpektren]

I tinkered with Linux a bit back in the late 90's and haven't used it since. I remember often fighting with installations but I was always able to conquer them eventually. I've used Windows ever since though, just because I'm lazy.

When Microsoft decided to make the upkeep of my Windows 7 installs a pain I decided to look into Linux again. I thought that SURELY it was polished as a marble by this point. I've had much more difficulty this time than I did the LAST time that I took an interest. I just assumed that I had become dumber in my old age. But I see so many people like you citing the exact problems that I'm having and then blaming them on systemd that it makes me wonder if I came back just in time to see Linux broken by bad decision making? :|

If you'd enlighten me as to the exact error you're having, I can try to help. But in literally every installation I've done or assisted with, it's as easy as "Burn Linux ISO to USB drive, reboot, change boot order to USB drive #1," and then everything thereafter can be done with hitting enter repeatedly. This has been true both before and after systemd was adopted.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[LichtSpektren]

I suspect that it's the same AC every single time because of the posting style (paragraph break every two sentences, constant use of the plural first-person nouns, the exact same arguments repeated over and over again), but I'm not 100% sure.

Re: So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

The arrogance that you have expressed on in your comments can definitely rival that of the SystemD creator, but if you really believe there's only one person complaining about you are even more clueless than I thought.

And to expect that one AC to start a non-systemd distro on his own, well that's so stupid I cannot even comment.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

I feel all the systemd complaints would vanish in an instant if Devuan spun up for real, or if any one solid distro clearly decided to avoid systemd, or at least support those who don't want to deal with it.

Oh, You mean like gentoo?

Re: So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

There have been lots of complaints about systemd. The mailing lists and bug trackers of Linux distros that use it by default are full of these complaints! Just because you choose to ignore them doesn't mean that they aren't there.

Those are just the people who bothered to describe their problem with systemd publicly. Many people just throw away Linux at that point, rather than trying to fix it.

Just a few weeks ago we learned how systemd broke screen and tmux. This isn't just a Debian problem, either. It could affect any distro that uses the systemd default config.

Re: So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

Different AC here (yes, really). I do notice its the same 2-3 really vocal systemd fanboys on Slashdot. The strange thing is you dislike something you're usually vocal about it, but it is normal to stay silent if you are happy with what you have. So why precisely are you evangelising systemd so hard?

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Cro Magnon]

Also, a lot of people buy their computers at a brick-and-mortar store. You're not going to find Linux at your local BestBuy/Walmart.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[thegarbz]

I see so much anger over GNOME 3 and systemd here.

What you're seeing is called a vocal minority. Bonus points if you failed to realise the people on forums, reddit and slashdot are often the same.

Guess what, the sky didn't fall, BSD didn't overtake Linux as the main OS of choice, and in general the vast majority of Linux users (myself included) simply just don't give a shit.

Re: So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

There has been some suspicion that "LichtSpektren" also posts here as "AmiMoJo" and "Grishnakh", and possibly as "TripMaster Monkey" back in the day, among other potential aliases.

A common trait is that they take the unconventional side of any discussion here, possibly just for the sake of arguing against the masses.

"LichtSpektren" routinely posts in defense of systemd, although systemd is widely disliked here at Slashdot.

"AmiMoJo" routinely posts in defense of social justice, although social justice is widely disliked here at Slashdot.

"Grishnakh" routinely posts in defense of right-wing politics, although the rightism is widely disliked here at Slashdot.

Commonalities have been noticed among the comments posted using those accounts, as well.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Rob Y.]

Even if you know where to go, Dell still charges significantly more for Linux laptops with the same specs as a Windows one. Why would anybody buy that? I suppose if Canonical got a significant cut, maybe... but do they?

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why this need to frame dissent and disagrement as 'anger'? That doesn't look like a sincere attempt to engage in debate but to discredit opponents.

This is a constant trend with the Redhat ecosystem, to dismiss debate and dissent away as angry people, grey beards or disgruntled elements without engaging in discussion.

The dicussion of the merits, approach, practices of systemd for instance were clevrly deflected by framing it as old vs new issue which made every discussion toxic. So discussions like the real benefits of systemds, project scope, compatability with the rest of the Linux ecosystem never happened or widely understood. The initial benefits of systemd was supposed to be boot time. While this was happening Udev was integrated with systemd as was Logind and Gnome leaving distributions with little choice but to adopt systemd. Now it's claimed boot time was never the issue but that since every distribution has adopted systemd it must be a good thing. And now they want a kernel bus. Does this look like the actions of a good actor?

It's the volunteer effort of thousands of developers and committed users that got free software where it is and companies like Redhat to their intitial billion in revenues not the other way around. Now this economic power is used to hire developers, take over projects, influence peddling and politics making it much more difficult for individual contributers to thrive. Why not just contribute funds to quality projects instead of hiring all the developers? Because they want influence. You are not going to piss off Redhat if your income depends on it. How does an individual or a small group improve or evolve the Linux ecosystem now being developed by a large numbers of paid developers? Isn't this is a net negative for open source.

Redhat is a 2 billion cathedral born in the bazaar and as we know from history cathedrals are primary interested in self preservation. Notice the recent shenanigans against Ubuntu Snap by a Fedora maintainer which is rich given Redhat/Fedora themselves are pushing the competiting xdgapp, and this when Ubuntu is barely a threat to Redhat.

Ubuntu is not colloborating with the freedom loving defence and secret government orgs yet Redhat is untainted and its Ubuntu and others who get the bad press. This is astrotrufing and image management by Redhat and its supporters who are always at hand to deflect, derail and diminish.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[KiloByte]

There's like twenty other init systems, and somehow every single of them but systemd manages to be relatively easy to replace.

Glibc is replaceable: musl is pretty feature-complete. It's intentionally not bug-compatible, though, preferring being true to POSIX rather than glibc, which means programs relying on specific glibc quirks might need some porting. Any sane upstream accepts such portability patches (guess which init system refused them...).

And as for the kernel... on Debian, beside Linux, you have kfreebsd (in a good shape), hurd (in a bad shape, but that's a fault of Hurd not the porting), and if you include unofficial ports, there's Solaris.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Grishnakh]

Here's a tip: download Linux Mint KDE Edition.

No system (though it's coming; they're very conservative and are waiting for it to be better-tested by other distros). No GNOME3 (at all, the choices are KDE, Cinnamon, MATE, and Xfce). The only "crapware" I can find is that their version of Firefox makes Yahoo the default search engine, which isn't hard to change. And LM has been around for years now, with no signs of fading away.

I do agree that there's been too much convergence, especially with the DEs which is what the user interacts with the most, yet is also the component where it's not all that useful to have a single standard, unlike other lower-level parts. I honestly have no idea why Gnome3 has been adopted so widely, when it's really the antithesis of the hacker ethos that Linux came from. Gnome is all about removing user choice and dumbing things down for casual users, not providing a powerful and configurable environment for power users or anyone who wants the ability to customize their system. Even MacOSX is probably more customizable than Gnome3.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[twokay]

Honestly I'm embarrassed to even have the same interests as these people now. It's at the point where we get a post about a new distro release, not even any baiting in TFS about systemd, and the comments are still hijacked with the same old hateful bullying.

There is now a Debian fork (among other alternatives) where I'm sure you will all be welcome. So kindly fuck off.

Re: So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Bengie]

Relatively few people complained about Vista, 8, and 10. Same difference. Just a vocal minority that actually cares. For the most part, Vista, 8, and 10 all worked fine. All the same.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because none of those twenty are deliberately viral, requiring that services be rewritten for use by systemd... such that going back to not using systemd shortly requires more effort than using it originally did. Of course, the next release of systemd will include whatever these services are within itself anyway. Once you let the borg inject nanoprobes into your neck...

This isn't to say that existing SysV-like init managers don't have problems or a need to be re-architected and cleaned up of many years' cruft. But to say that something like systemd is the answer is like observing that you have atherosclerotic arteries, and concluding that the solution is to cut them out and install lead pipes instead.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

Even for an experienced linux user finding, downloading burning and iso then setting up the partitions is NOT a trivial situation. Fingers crossed (1) it boots (2) linux boots (3) windows still boots (4) linux functions in a useful state (sound works, flash works, etc).

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

"and we don't want to use a Linux distro that requires us to wait hours or days for it to compile software."

This was a legitimate bitch a while ago. Today? My new LAPTOP compiled my kernel from scratch in four minutes, and installed a complete Gentoo system with KDE4 in roughly three hours. The only problems I've had in this respect involve very large packages with badly broken compile systems (Hi, ParaView!) whose build graphs are so broken that parallel make is hopeless.

If you want a legit complaint about Gentoo: "Where is the tool that will save me several days of Googling and guesswork before I perturb my kernel config into having the correct modules for all my hardware to work?"

Re: So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because we ARE those developers and the ecosystem WE built has been taken over by Redhat.

Re: So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yes. Debian. Sabayon. Gentoo. Ubuntu. Fedora.

I can experience super fun to troubleshoot sytemd failures. I've given up ticketing the bugs and just avoid (or barely accept when necessary) systemd. When there's no longer an option to avoid it, I'll leave linux. LIKE: I can't copy and paste from konsole, sometimes (but only sometimes). Sometimes, stdout goes somewhere else. The solution is to close that tab and open another. Usually after less exits weirdly. Must be a less problem. Random bootup problems. Nifty log failures where systemd shits the bed semi-regularly spams the hell out of logs. Talk to me about multipath, a large number of devices and dm-raid someday (the reason I stopped opening tickets with RedHat despite the fact that we paid more than a million/year in support). Fuck redhat and fuck Fedora.

I've tried. I wanted to like SystemD (I actually hated SystemV init), but.. SystemV init had one thing going for it that systemD doesn't- deterministic boot. I've never had to reboot servers like I have under systemd. I've never had to solve software issues by rebooting a desktop (ok, Win95 excluded) like I have since migrating to systemd on a desktop. And I've honestly never lost this much data.

All of that is no-shit and Linux has been the primary OS on multiple systems of mine for years. SystemD truly sucks. When I can't find SystemV-init, I'll leave for some fucking BSD and hate myself. Or, I'll load Windows again (what I suspect is the real motive of the systemd lobby). Either way, fuck systemd.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[dbIII]

On the Gnome 3 front, I'll agree that it's probably easier to just go with MATE desktop if you miss Gnome 2 that much. I'm sympathetic, but the fork has been pretty viable, so it's not like there's no recourse

It's still not quite to the point where people who have had gnome2 on their workstations for a decade are not going to be annoyed by it. Centos5 still gets updates and still has gnome2.

systemd has caused some headaches

I've had a few of them, and fucking insane shit like suggestions to kill all background processes when a user logs off indicate that there are many more to come thanks to the systemd team wanting to change *nix into something completely different and stop all old software from working. I still use systemd on a few desktop machines but have had to roll some systems back to an earlier version due to weird shit happening with init.
To me an init system that hangs on startup overnight just because it cannot recognize a USB wireless mouse dongle has some serious design flaws. That "fast parallel init" that Lennert promised but did not deliver as described should not block on a single hardware item plugged into USB.

As for syntax, try typing "systemctl isolate multi-user.target" in a hurry instead of "telinit 3". WTF is wrong with Lennart and why is his manager too much of a wimp to let him get away with stupid shit?

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a predictable trend now with the Redhat ecosystem to dismiss debate and disagreement as grey beards, anti-change, disgruntled elements and now 'angry people'. There is no room for disagreement here.

The dicussion of the merits, approach, practices of systemd was deftly deflected by framing it as old vs new issue which made every discussion toxic. Any issues raised are similarly dismissed, its like a playbook.

The initial benefits of systemd was supposed to be boot time. But what happened is Redhat ecosystem projects like Udev was integrated with systemd as was Logind and Gnome leaving distributions with little choice but to adopt systemd. And this is an accident? Now it's claimed boot time was never the issue but that since every distribution has adopted systemd it must be a good thing!! And now they want a kdbus to have cement their control of userland. Do these look like the actions of a good actor?

It's the volunteer effort of thousands of developers and committed users that got free software where it is and companies like Redhat to their intitial billion in revenues not the other way around. Now this economic power is used to hire developers, take over projects, influence peddling and politics making it much more difficult for individual contributers to have an impact.

Why not just contribute funds to quality projects instead of hiring all the developers? Because they want influence. You are not going to piss off Redhat if your income depends on it. How does an individual or a small group now improve or evolve projects like the init system now being developed by a large numbers of paid developers? Linux worked, because it was simple, thus encouraging wide contribution. Systemd and all the sponsored kits are anything but. How is this good for open source.

Redhat is a 2 billion cathedral born in the bazaar and as we know from history cathedrals are primary interested in self preservation. Notice the recent shenanigans against Ubuntu Snap by a Fedora maintainer which is 'rich' given Redhat/Fedora are pushing the competiting xdgapp, and this when Ubuntu is barely a threat to Redhat.

Ubuntu unlike Redhat is not collaborating with the freedom loving defence and secret government orgs yet Redhat is untainted and its Ubuntu and others who get the bad press. This is astrotrufing and image management by Redhat and its supporters who are always at hand to deflect, derail and diminish.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[CRC'99]

On the Gnome 3 front, I'll agree that it's probably easier to just go with MATE desktop if you miss Gnome 2 that much.

The KDE Spin of Fedora is high quality. Not perfect, but certainly usable out of the box.

Re: So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. Linux means the freedom of choice. In every part of it.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[donaldm]

systemd has caused some headaches and there's frustration because expressing those headaches is meat with mostly useless 'me toos' or dismissive 'you are just trolling'. Not a whole lot of 'well, let's see what we can do to address the specific concerns', but instead calling out such viewpoints as just flat out wrong.

Really. I have been using Fedora from the 1990's and have been using it exclusively on my own PC's for over eight years. I have never had a problem with SystemD. As for the enterprise you have to raise change requests and get everything signed off before you are allowed to make changes to any computing system. Going in guns blazing is a sure fire way of losing your job.

If you don't like "SytemD" that is your prerogative but if you are managing computer systems it is not professional to dump on a particular application without proof otherwise your credibility will take a tumble. For home use, if you don't like something then you are free to choose an alternative.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[donaldm]

>I've had a few of them, and fucking insane shit like suggestions to kill all background processes when a user logs off indicate that there are many more to come thanks to the systemd team wanting to change *nix into something completely different and stop all old software from working. I still use systemd on a few desktop machines but have had to roll some systems back to an earlier version due to weird shit happening with init.

That issue was an update on Debian that reset a configuration namely the "#KillUserProcesses=" in /etc/systemd/logind.conf being set to "yes" instead of "no". This issue never impacted Fedora.

I will agree that any update changing pre-set configurations is reprehensible, after all, we know that Microsoft would never do that .... Oh wait! :-)

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

By contaminating other parts with your crap, by using market share as your leverage. At this point, for some things, you have to add specific systemd support for them to continue working as they did before. And because maintainers of those packages aren't RedHat, they have only so much time and effort to spend, and so if they must do systemd, it means that no time is left for everything else.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Junta]

I'm very confused as to where you thought I was saying anything about 'going in guns blazing'. Also, Fedora didn't exist in the 90s.

I'm also unsure how you think every criticism constitutes dumping on systemd without 'proof'. A prominent example is the complaint that journald uses a binary format for logs. This is not some spurious claim without 'proof', it simply is the reality, but people disagree on the cost/benefit facet.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[ausekilis]

Somebody mod this guy up, he's right. Its the main reason why I switched away from the RH ecosystem. And before anybody tries to throw the "hipster" slur, I'm probably old enough to be your Dad. I've been at this for awhile, and there are good reasons to think the more traditional UNIX way was better.

That's great! If you're comfortable with the way you're accustomed to doing things, I have nothing against you. I'm just trying to figure out why so many people shit on the hard work done by FOSS developers, who spend time and money to give stuff to the world entirely for free (as in beer AND speech) and don't force you in any way to use it. I don't like GNOME Shell, but I don't anonymous shit-post every article about Linux. I just don't use it, and I don't suffer from apoplectic fits knowing that some peoples' opinions differ from mine.

What I'm trying to understand is the constant critique of others when you are free to do your own thing. Linus started developing the kernel all by himself and now there's hundreds (thousands?) of folks helping him out. Each of the distros started as an idea by a few people, then grew as more people liked what the first few were doing.

I for one don't care that my laptop uses PulseAudio, SystemD, NetworkManager, or Gnome Shell. As long as they work for what I want to do, why should I care? Sure, there are a handful of times Gnome has crashed, but it's still far fewer times than Windows XP or 7 has crashed for me.

If you don't like the way something is being done, use something that you do like. If you know enough about the internals to bitch and moan about the intricacies of SystemD vs SysVInit, you know enough to piece together something you do like. Stop bitching about RedHat and make your own.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

Correct, users don't care. Unfortunately, its us contributers that do care and are leaving. Good luck with your empty shell.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[WallyL]

The Firefox making Yahoo the default search is a Firefox thing, not a linux thing at all: http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/2...

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Grishnakh]

No, it's different with Linux Mint:
https://www.linuxmint.com/sear...

The thing you're missing is that in Linux, the browser is built from sources by the distro, not supplied by Firefox, so distros can and do make customizations. Linux Mint makes money by making certain search engines default on the version Firefox they package. This is different on Windows where users download a pre-built Firefox directly from Mozilla's site, and presumably Mozilla makes money the same way.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Rakarra]

Because we don't have the time and inclination to create our own Linux distros

In other words "I want you to do all the work for me, and I'm just going to sit over here and post complaints on Slashdot and Reddit if you do it the way you like it rather than the way I like it."

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[iggymanz]

They put shit in it, taking advantage of wealth and power they have. The pollution is spreading to all Linux distros. No, the answer must be more comprehensive than just not using the product as the harm spreads to all open source, this projects and the kind of defective minds that produce them need to be shut down

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[Anonymous Coward]

Very much vocal minority.

Personally, I'm fine with systemd. I've dealt with init.d for a decade or longer and it was a house of cards.

I also like Gnome3 (Ubuntu Gnome 15.10 and 16.04) and use it on both the laptop and desktop. It helps that my work machine is a Macbook Pro, so the UI is pretty similar and I have a lot of the same short-cuts for task switching setup on all three machines. It's gotten to the point where using Windows 7 (or Win10 without Parallels Coherence mode) is annoying because I can't just throw the mouse to the upper-left to see what windows I have open.

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[dbIII]

Being in there at all speaks volumes that they have no idea what people are using *nix for.
They are windows weenies with a single user non-networked mindset that are trying to reshape other stuff into that image.

Re: So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[LichtSpektren]

Your conspiracy theory is false. But just to clarify, I don't defend systemd, I'm neutral about it. I'm defending FOSS against the insane trolling of people like you that say that systemd invaded your house and force-installed on your computers and there's no running away from it.

Re: So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[iggymanz]

FOSS now allows people with inferior ability to ruin projects, that's how systemd took over Debian via a group of SJW given a megaphone

The GNU side of FOSS that provides Linux OS infrastructure is now about political correctness and not hurting feelings rather than technical excellence

nothing insane about pointing out the inferiority of a product

Re:So why so much anger in the Linux community?

[iggymanz]

I'm married with teenage children, I don't rail 24x7 on reddit against systemd, yet here I often point out its garbage. Maybe your stereotypes are worthless. And maybe you are a shill for inferior engineering led by a failure of a developer, e.g. systemd

Torrents

[l2718]

Grab a torrent now and help your peers!

Re:Torrents

[Anonymous Coward]

Fedora sucks. They are just like Microsoft except open source.

Re:Torrents

[thegarbz]

I've been told that torrents are unilaterally theft of copyrighted material and thus shouldn't be used. We all know there can't ever be a legitimate use for torrents. I don't condone your behaviour!

Re:Torrents

[ChunderDownunder]

I never understood the use case with torrents and free software.

The whole point of a binary distro like fedora or debian is that a local user group within your country mirrors the content within 24 hours and downloads from your ISP are unmetered by using said mirror.

Re:Torrents

[thegarbz]

How about eliminating the requirement of this infrastructure. I mean it was good an all, but what benefit does that offer over a wide distributed system? Even torrents have the ability to prevent unmetered downloads in similar ways. I remember getting distros off torrents on a private tracker on PIPE networks since that specific network didn't count to my data.

Re:Torrents

[ChunderDownunder]

unmetered torrents would be dependent on the ISP, no?

The last install I did was with a 20MB netinstall ISO and fetching the packages I need on demand - to me that beats getting a 4GB DVD images, whose packages become obsolete the moment they hit the network.

And on one of my boxes I've been updating the same Ubuntu installation since Jaunty (2009), without need to reinstall.

systemd no thanks

[Anonymous Coward]

won't use it because of systemd moved far from redhat systems since

Re:Fedora 24 is awesome 'cause you can upgrade to

[Anonymous Coward]

> finally fixed that.

No, the web page says it is broken because 24 has several packages with higher versions than are in 25, just like CentOS's upgrade from 6 to 7 has been broken for over six months because of the same problem. Red Hat wants you to throw away servers rather than upgrade. That's why hardware makers, like Dell, love them.

Re:Someone needs to revive the "BSD is dying" trol

[Anonymous Coward]

BSD rocks.
https://www.freebsd.org/ports/categories-grouped.html

https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Download_Old_Builds
After 4.2.x the Guest Additions can be compromised.

Re:Fedora 24 is awesome 'cause you can upgrade to

[CronoCloud]

They're actually referring to doing easy updates via a GUI since IIRC Fedora hasn't had a distro-upgrade gui. Thusly requiring the terminal for distro upgrades....which is easy enough.

In the terminal you use dnf system-upgrade though you can still use the old "fedup" command (which redirects to dnf system-upgrade)

Upgrading F23 to F24 in the terminal is as easy as:

[code]
sudo dnf system-upgrade download --releasever=24
sudo dnf system-upgrade reboot[/code]

Of course, if one waits a couple of days the F23 version of gnome-software will be updated to support graphical distro update.

Obligatory

[Hognoxious]

Featuring GNOME 3.20, Tons Of Improvements

Make your mind up. Which is it?

Re:Obligatory

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to admit, Gnome is one shiny turd.

systemd

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it still have systemd?

Anything other than eye candy?

[The Last Gunslinger]

For people like me who run the XFCE spin specifically to get away from the bloated nightmare that is Gnome 3.x, is there anything in this latest release that is of any interest?

Re:Anything other than eye candy?

[LichtSpektren]

You're aware that Fedora officially supports other DEs, right? : https://spins.fedoraproject.or...

Re:Anything other than eye candy?

[Bengie]

Does matter which DE you select, I'm torrenting them all. Leech away! Over 100GiB of Fedora 24 uploaded by the time I woke up this morning.

Re:Anything other than eye candy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Given how he said he uses the XFCE spin of Fedora, I think he's aware that Fedora supports other DEs.

As far as what's in this release, the summary mentioned GNOME three times, improved font smoothing (not clear to me if this is GNOME-specific or not), and a new version of glibc. So to reword the question, for non-GNOME users is there anything interesting in this release of Fedora? TFS suggests that the Fedora update process has room for improvement so I can imagine one can save a headache by not updating unless necessary.

Re:Anything other than eye candy?

[cfalcon]

Of course, he said " people like me who run the XFCE spin". Then you linked to the xfce spin.

And the answer is yes, and gone over in the article- ipv6 ping, newer versions of compilers ( https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-6/chan... ), new open source codec, and I think the greater Unicode support will affect us in XFCE land.

I will tell you what Fedora version I plan to skip: whatever initially switches us to Wayland. That will be a guaranteed shit-show, and a good call to avoid upgrading for a few months. But 24 is solid methinks.

Re:Anything other than eye candy?

[The Last Gunslinger]

I will tell you what Fedora version I plan to skip: whatever initially switches us to Wayland. That will be a guaranteed shit-show, and a good call to avoid upgrading for a few months. But 24 is solid methinks.

Thanks! Yeah, I'll likely sit that one out as well. X works just fine for what I do.

Memories of the adventure

[fnj]

Ah yes, I remember participating in the Fedora treadmill. Then I discovered Arch. With Arch I have the latest packages every single day, and I never have to reinstall or upgrade to a new release. With either of them (running Arch or constantly upgrading to the newest Fedora) you do at times run into buggy bleeding edge behavior. For systems I need to be stable and absolutely dependable (basically servers/infrastructure), I stick with CentOS or FreeBSD.

Re:They haven't fixed what is wrong with it

[Anonymous Coward]

argumentum ad antiquitatem

Re:Fedora 24 is awesome 'cause you can upgrade to

[CronoCloud]

It's been fixed since what was it... Fedora 17? IIRC that was the last one where the upgrade issues were more prevalent. I haven't had trouble since then with in place upgrades.

Re:Fedora 24 is awesome 'cause you can upgrade to

[fnj]

New GNOME (in Fedora 24) will also let you easily upgrade to Fedora 25

Fedora has had a huge problem with upgrades in the past. They believe they have finally fixed that.

All right, I'll bite. What the hell does the DE have to do with whether your upgrade-release mechanism works or is broken? Or whether there even is an upgrade-release mechanism?

Re:They haven't fixed what is wrong with it

[LichtSpektren]

Gnome blows. Have they replaced systemd yet? No? I'm sticking with FreeBSD.

You must be fun at parties. "What? Salt & vinegar chips??? Fuck that, I only eat sour cream & onion! I'm sticking with that, thanks."

Re:Fedora 24 is awesome 'cause you can upgrade to

[93 Escort Wagon]

No, the web page says it is broken because 24 has several packages with higher versions than are in 25, just like CentOS's upgrade from 6 to 7 has been broken for over six months because of the same problem. Red Hat wants you to throw away servers rather than upgrade. That's why hardware makers, like Dell, love them.

You realize those aren't the only two options... right?

Having to do a clean install may be annoying, but it's not particularly difficult. And if your system is partitioned correctly, it doesn't even have to affect your data.

FVWM

[l2718]

Yes, I've never seen the point of GNOME, especially since Fedora includes fvwm which is much better. Frankly, I'd rather return to my previous choice of tvtwm than go with GNOME.

Re:FVWM

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 3.11 looks better than fvwm. The only feasible desktop environments on linux are XFCE, Unity, Gnome 2/mate, Gnome 3, and KDE.

Everything else is a joke, it's impossible to do real work with dozens of web browsers, IDE, and tons of terminals in anything other than those.

Re:FVWM

[Blaskowicz]

Fluxbox is decent for a dummied media player.
You have to edit the start menu by hand to include the like three programs you want to run, add an entry to turn off the PC and put setuid on /sbin/halt. Stupid?, but I did that.

Best I ever used still is XP/2003 turned Windows 2K/98 with a virtual desktops freeware, Autohotkey and a crazy .exe and .dll editing utility that allows to change the start menu layout, delete a few useless graphics like the top right useless icon in explorer, etc.

Re:WHY DOES THIS STORY CONNECT TO

[Anonymous Coward]

da fuk are you talking about?

Tons of improvements

[Anonymous Coward]

Tons of improvements? In Gnome world, that can only mean they've removed even more menus, options and other features in this release.

The last, best Fedora was ...

[lsllll]

Probably 16 or 17. I've been using Fedora since FC3 and its quality went up until things stopped working during installation. For instance, I used to be able to switch to command prompt during installation, set up my drives in any RAID format I wanted, with ANY parameters I wanted, and have the graphical installation recognize my setup and install away. Even wireless worked off the bat on the notebooks I installed on.

Come the new installation process and it looks like everything is dummied down, which I don't mind, as long as the advanced functions don't get taken away. But it looks like they have.

I actually downloaded 24 this morning and tried the live boot on an Acer notebook. To my surprise, it actually recognized the wireless and I was able to get on, but I couldn't fire up any programs (including terminal). All I'd get was a spinning cursor. Granted this was just on one notebook, and I'm going to install 24 on the notebook as soon as I put an SSD in it, but it seems like the installation quality has gone down significantly. I actually liked being able to select my packages during install.

Incidentally, when did systemd make its way into Fedora?

Re:The last, best Fedora was ...

[Dadoo]

Probably 16 or 17.

No, I'd say 14 or 15. I'm pretty sure it was 16 where they started using Gnome 3, and that's when everything fell apart. Things still haven't completely recovered.

Re:The last, best Fedora was ...

[lsllll]

When they did Gnome 3 I moved to XFCE and have never looked back.

Re:The last, best Fedora was ...

[Dadoo]

When they did Gnome 3 I moved to XFCE and have never looked back.

I like KDE, myself, but the Fedora project only really supports Gnome well, especially when it comes to system settings.

Re:The last, best Fedora was ...

[donaldm]

Incidentally, when did systemd make its way into Fedora?

30 March 2010; 6 years ago

BTW. For Fedora, all you need to do is choose a Live Spin , boot and test to see if it is to your liking then if you do like what you see you can install. If you don't like it then take out your USB key and reboot back to the OS you were originally using.

Each "Spin" has it's own basic packages, which are enough to get you started. Once you have installed the "Spin" you want then it is a simple matter of using your package manager (GUI) or "dnf" to install particular packages which in turn will install all dependencies relevant to that package.

All up my Fedora 23 KDE spin has about 9.1 GB of system storage comprising 2627 packages some of which are fairly heavy math and scientific programs.

Re:Fedora 24 is awesome 'cause you can upgrade to

[Jack_the_Tripper]

No, the web page says it is broken because 24 has several packages with higher versions than are in 25, just like CentOS's upgrade from 6 to 7 has been broken for over six months because of the same problem. Red Hat wants you to throw away servers rather than upgrade. That's why hardware makers, like Dell, love them.

The upgrade on my Workstation Spin (or whatever they call it) went just fine on the lappy yesterday by auto-downgrading a couple of programs -- kind of borked the rpmfusion part but that was mostly my fault by upgrading before the official release and messing with things beforehand. All good now except for gnome-mplayer being nowhere to be found. Only really use the laptop to watch videos on anyway so was a good guinea pig to test the upgrade process before upgrading my desktop.

Today is the desktop's turn where I have patched libs and py-modules scattered around, self-built rpms from who-knows-where and some WIP projects that rely on said custom installed libs but now you got me all scared...guess I'll just throw the computer in the dumpster and start all over with a Dell on win10 or something...

Re: They haven't fixed what is wrong with it

[Anonymous Coward]

Was that supposed to sound like an analogy? Because it just sounded stupid.

SystemD fans indeed deserve what is happening. The problem is that the rest of us are given not much choice.

Re:WHY DOES THIS STORY CONNECT TO

[Anonymous Coward]

da fuk are you talking about?

216.34.181.48 - Whois Information

#
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NetRange: 216.34.181.0 - 216.34.181.255
CIDR: 216.34.181.0/24
NetName: SAVV-S234813-8
NetHandle: NET-216-34-181-0-1
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Re: They haven't fixed what is wrong with it

[Anonymous Coward]

We are stuck with SystemD, and SystemD fans are stuck with all the outrage which was generated by introducing this abomination into the ecosystem.

If you think SystemD is easier to deal with than some negative comments on a random website, that's just a first world problem you're experiencing.

The outrage that we have seen is irritating because the SystemD problem itself is irritating.

Re:WHY DOES THIS STORY CONNECT TO

[Anonymous Coward]

OrgNOCHandle: SITEO2-ARIN
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Re:WHY DOES THIS STORY CONNECT TO

[Anonymous Coward]

Nicksic, Bob is not his real name and he is a CIA field agent

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Re:WHY DOES THIS STORY CONNECT TO

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh fuck! They call this going rogue.

Re: What about gnome 3 and systemd?

[Anonymous Coward]

systemd, "the jobs not done til linux won't run"

Re: They haven't fixed what is wrong with it

[Anonymous Coward]

Waaah waah waaaaah! Systemd, waaaaah! I hate progress and demand to tell you so on a regular basis! ðY

Why I moved to OSX

[guanfenglin]

My 2cents is the Linux ecosystem doesn't work well together, you might have a stable OS, but then the UI and apps suck balls, there is no good financial backing for consumer software companies to make apps for the OS. There are many times I tried to use Ubuntu for my work machines, while it's easy to use for software dev box but the apps I wanted to use were not there, the desktop was so unstable to make me move to OSX. OSX is great, you get a decent shell, and also stable desktop and plenty of solid apps.

Trump 2016

[Anonymous Coward]

Well it's not like this poor article doesn't deserve it, after all it's just an announcement from redhat.

Slackware and gnome

[saxa]

Slackware with dropline gnome 3.20 will also be out shortly :)

Still Miss Blackbox

[stakovahflow]

I miss having to startx manually and landing on blackbox/fluxbox for the window manager to conserve memory & CPU. Yes, I'm the old codger who still thinks INIT is better than the newfangled whatchamacallit. Not trying to troll, but I get carried away and feel really old when I feel the need to post a rant like this when I see an aarticle about a GUI that's way overkill. CLI! CLI! CLI!

(Slinks back into his cave)

RHEL/CentOS beta

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Fedora users,

thank you for being beta testers so we can have super stable RHEL/CentOS releases.

Re:Fedora 24 is awesome 'cause you can upgrade to

[donaldm]

>> New GNOME (in Fedora 24) will also let you easily upgrade to Fedora 25

Ummm...that's one of your "tons of improvements"?

Unfortunately yes. Fedora has had a huge problem with upgrades in the past. They believe they have finally fixed that.

You do know that Fedora has had "spins" for a few years now. You can choose KDE, XFce, LXDE, Mate-Compiz, Gnome, Cinnamon, SOAS (see here ).

As for upgrading or fresh install, I find that it is actually quicker to do a fresh install providing you have configured your filesystems such that your system filesystems don't contain user data. Obviously, due diligence is important here in that you should know what add-ons you require (ie. document them) and any configurations you need such as password and group files (easier to save the /etc directory (it's not that big). For me, going from Fedora 23 to Fedora 24 should take me about an hour since my system filesystems are on an SSD while the rest of my user data is on a 3TB HDD.

It actually took me less than 20 minutes to install Fedora 24 in a virtual machine which was running under Fedora 23. Of course, no matter which way you go it is essential to do backups.

Here is a default install of Fedor 24 on a virtual machine (only showing relevant parts)

Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
/dev/mapper/fedora-root 17938864 4596544 12408024 28% /
tmpfs 1986484 24 1986460 1% /tmp
/dev/sda1 487652 113609 344347 25% /boot

Of course, you may want to add a /usr and /var filesystem but you can always mount appropriate user data filesystems such as databases and web information. A separate /home filesystem IMHO is essential as is additional filesystems associated with user data as long as you can differentiate between what is system data and user data then you don't have to worry about updating when you get a new release. In fact, his concept works for pretty much on all modern operating systems including Unix and even if you want to go to the dark side, MS Windows.

Re:They haven't fixed what is wrong with it

[Anonymous Coward]

Salt & Vinegar chips are disgusting. They smell like feet.

Re:Fedora 24 is awesome 'cause you can upgrade to

[WallyL]

I did a dnf system-upgrade from Korora 22 to Korora 23. I had a few minor problems: notably wine (wasn't worried; I assume wine is tricky and I was able to solve it), and I had to remove and reinstall hplip and hpaio (printer drivers), and maybe one more 32-bit vs 64-bit package issue somewhere. That might have been the wine issue in one of its dependencies.

Re:Fedora 24 is awesome 'cause you can upgrade to

[ChrisMaple]

Oh sure, doing a clean (upgrade) install is a breeze ... until I find an important piece of software is not included in the new version of the distro, and the available binaries are incompatible with new libraries. And the source code won't compile because the the libraries have changed and so have the header files. And the Makefiles refer to stuff that doesn't exist any more. And the paths in the Makefile are obsolete.

Then multiply that by ten for other essential programs, some of which can never be made to run again.

A breeze.