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Fedora 24 Featuring GNOME 3.20, Tons Of Improvements Released (betanews.com)
After several delays, the Fedora Project on Tuesday released Fedora 24 (download link), the latest version of its Linux-based operating system. Fedora 24 brings with it a number of interesting features and changes, including the GNOME 3.20 desktop environment. The latest version of GNOME comes with media-player controls in the notification panel, and improved search feature in the Files application. New GNOME will also let you easily upgrade to Fedora 25, by simply using its Software application. There's also improved font-rendering. Among other things Fedora 24 has an upgraded version of glibc, or GNU C Library, which comes with improved performance and bug fixes across the entire operating system. You can learn more about the features at TechRepublic..
I admit it's not fashionable, but I am a Fedora/CentOS/RH fanboy. Not only is Fedora offer the latest and greatest for the Desktop, but they offer enterprise level integrations and features that no other can match. FreeIPA anyone?!
does it still have systemd and gnome3? If so, don't want.
>> New GNOME (in Fedora 24) will also let you easily upgrade to Fedora 25
Ummm...that's one of your "tons of improvements"?
>> New GNOME (in Fedora 24) will also let you easily upgrade to Fedora 25
Ummm...that's one of your "tons of improvements"?
Unfortunately yes. Fedora has had a huge problem with upgrades in the past. They believe they have finally fixed that.
No, you idiot. They did not do that.
systemd has a new feature that allows a system administrator to control what users allow which programs to persist after the user exits. That was exceedingly difficult to do. Its optional, Fedora is using it but has it set by default to allow all users to keep running processes after exit.
You're thinking of Debian, who just upgraded and took the defaults from the systemd package without really bothering to figure out what they did.
Grab a torrent now and help your peers!
I don't deny that some people give up because they are angry about X, Y, or Z. But I think, pure and simple, the reason Linux's desktop share is so low is that nearly every computer you buy comes with either Windows or Mac OS pre-installed, and people simply aren't going to change the operating system (and in most cases wouldn't quite know how to do that either).
They're actually referring to doing easy updates via a GUI since IIRC Fedora hasn't had a distro-upgrade gui. Thusly requiring the terminal for distro upgrades....which is easy enough.
In the terminal you use dnf system-upgrade though you can still use the old "fedup" command (which redirects to dnf system-upgrade)
Upgrading F23 to F24 in the terminal is as easy as:
[code]
sudo dnf system-upgrade download --releasever=24
sudo dnf system-upgrade reboot[/code]
Of course, if one waits a couple of days the F23 version of gnome-software will be updated to support graphical distro update.
Make your mind up. Which is it?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Fedora has nothing to do with GNOME, systemd, or PulseAudio. Firstly, Fedora is developed by the Fedora Project. Secondly, GNOME is developed by the GNOME Foundation. Thirdly, systemd and PulseAudio are developed mostly by employees of Red Hat, but lots of others contribute to them, and they are distributed by freedesktop.org. You can say "oh well they're all funded by Red Hat so they're all really from the same source," but that's dubious logic. You could say the Linux kernel is Red Hat's project by the same logic.
If you hate GNOME Shell, use a different DE. I also hate it and I don't use it. If you hate PulseAudio, uninstall it and use something else to your like. If you don't like systemd, many distros still maintain SysVinit-core, or you could use Slackware or Devuan or Gentoo or CRUX because they don't ship systemd as the default init system.
Again and again you Anonymous Cowards proclaim a great upheaval over the above issues, but in real life, this doesn't seem to be the case; the user base, developer base, support base, and most clearly of all the *financials* of all the major Linux companies that ship distros with GNOME and PulseAudio and systemd (Canonical, SUSE, Red Hat, IBM, Oracle) are all doing just great.
Then there are all of the people who are angry but don't express it online. I bet a lot of them just say "fuck it" to Linux. They just use FreeBSD, or OS X, or even Windows without saying a thing. This is probably why Linux's share of the desktop market is at most 2%, and that's being generous.
The Linux desktop market share is higher than it was before systemd and GNOME 3 were widely adopted.
For people like me who run the XFCE spin specifically to get away from the bloated nightmare that is Gnome 3.x, is there anything in this latest release that is of any interest?
My thoughts? a bunch of elitist skiddies getting their panties in a bunch over their territory being easier to access. They LIKE things intuitive (shell), hard (arch install) and being an absolute PITA, so they can keep their foothold of elitism in knowing how to tweak the widgets *just so*. Double so for linux sysadmins who like the job stability.
Ah yes, I remember participating in the Fedora treadmill. Then I discovered Arch. With Arch I have the latest packages every single day, and I never have to reinstall or upgrade to a new release. With either of them (running Arch or constantly upgrading to the newest Fedora) you do at times run into buggy bleeding edge behavior. For systems I need to be stable and absolutely dependable (basically servers/infrastructure), I stick with CentOS or FreeBSD.
It's been fixed since what was it... Fedora 17? IIRC that was the last one where the upgrade issues were more prevalent. I haven't had trouble since then with in place upgrades.
All right, I'll bite. What the hell does the DE have to do with whether your upgrade-release mechanism works or is broken? Or whether there even is an upgrade-release mechanism?
cut the bullshit.
Redhat sponsors Fedora.
Redhat pushes badly engineered garage like systemd and GNOME, including in Fedora.
Fedora is where RedHat tries its random brain farts out on the redhat guinea pigs, aka Fedora users.
Okay? And what's your point?
Gnome blows. Have they replaced systemd yet? No? I'm sticking with FreeBSD.
You must be fun at parties. "What? Salt & vinegar chips??? Fuck that, I only eat sour cream & onion! I'm sticking with that, thanks."
Somebody mod this guy up, he's right. Its the main reason why I switched away from the RH ecosystem. And before anybody tries to throw the "hipster" slur, I'm probably old enough to be your Dad. I've been at this for awhile, and there are good reasons to think the more traditional UNIX way was better.
C|N>K
No, the web page says it is broken because 24 has several packages with higher versions than are in 25, just like CentOS's upgrade from 6 to 7 has been broken for over six months because of the same problem. Red Hat wants you to throw away servers rather than upgrade. That's why hardware makers, like Dell, love them.
You realize those aren't the only two options... right?
Having to do a clean install may be annoying, but it's not particularly difficult. And if your system is partitioned correctly, it doesn't even have to affect your data.
#DeleteChrome
Yes, I've never seen the point of GNOME, especially since Fedora includes fvwm which is much better. Frankly, I'd rather return to my previous choice of tvtwm than go with GNOME.
I would've been very, very happy if my Debian system had gotten to a login prompt, never mind a non-rescue shell, after a system update installed systemd! But it wouldn't even get that far.
If you're running a bleeding-edge distro where the init system will change during a regular system update, you should expect things to break. Do you also seethe with rage when you install an alpha-release kernel and it doesn't boot?
We're moving on. We see that the Linux we once knew and loved is long dead. We're moving to FreeBSD. We're moving to OS X. Some of us are even moving back to Windows! Linux is a lost cause to us, and an inferior product.
That's nice. Just please stop infesting every article with your nonsensical commentary, thanks.
Somebody mod this guy up, he's right. Its the main reason why I switched away from the RH ecosystem. And before anybody tries to throw the "hipster" slur, I'm probably old enough to be your Dad. I've been at this for awhile, and there are good reasons to think the more traditional UNIX way was better.
That's great! If you're comfortable with the way you're accustomed to doing things, I have nothing against you. I'm just trying to figure out why so many people shit on the hard work done by FOSS developers, who spend time and money to give stuff to the world entirely for free (as in beer AND speech) and don't force you in any way to use it. I don't like GNOME Shell, but I don't anonymous shit-post every article about Linux. I just don't use it, and I don't suffer from apoplectic fits knowing that some peoples' opinions differ from mine.
Redhat is crapping in the open source pool, and the sewage has spread
How exactly does one infest a pool where anybody in the world is free to take the parts they want and leave the rest, like a bazaar? Again, if you don't like GNOME or systemd or Pulse Audio or Fedora, don't use them.
On the Gnome 3 front, I'll agree that it's probably easier to just go with MATE desktop if you miss Gnome 2 that much. I'm sympathetic, but the fork has been pretty viable, so it's not like there's no recourse.
Similarly for pulseaudio, by and large if it is not well liked, it may be ignored. Also as something relatively 'on the fringe', it's not something I feel like RedHat as an organization particularly cares about. Network Manager is another one in this way *mostly* (non-network manager ways of managing wifi have atrophied).
systemd is a different sort of thing in a couple of ways. One is that given it's role, it is not so simply swapped out at user will. It's one of those core components that is difficult to make selectable (like kernel and glibc). As such a user doesn't have as much individual ability to opt in/out, hence the advanced vitriol, as those who dislike it have relatively little recourse than to whine.
Also, to say that RHAT isn't effectively calling the shots over systemd is slily. Of course they are. It is, at it's core, a part of their strategy. It enables some capabilities they really want for their business in providing orchestration capabilities. The leadership of systemd is within redhat. the leadership of the kernel is outside (though RHAT makes a ton of contributions, they are not the leaders). The leadership role is not some arbitrary detail, it's pretty important, *particularly* in systemd that has such a strong vision of what it wants (contrast with an open source project like openstack that kind of meanders about all over the place).
systemd has caused some headaches and there's frustration because expressing those headaches is meat with mostly useless 'me toos' or dismissive 'you are just trolling'. Not a whole lot of 'well, let's see what we can do to address the specific concerns', but instead calling out such viewpoints as just flat out wrong.
Sure, a lot of it has devolved into inane troll copy/paste posts, but there are legitimate gripes and RedHat is in a key position as the pusher of the technology to be the target of frustration.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Probably 16 or 17. I've been using Fedora since FC3 and its quality went up until things stopped working during installation. For instance, I used to be able to switch to command prompt during installation, set up my drives in any RAID format I wanted, with ANY parameters I wanted, and have the graphical installation recognize my setup and install away. Even wireless worked off the bat on the notebooks I installed on.
Come the new installation process and it looks like everything is dummied down, which I don't mind, as long as the advanced functions don't get taken away. But it looks like they have.
I actually downloaded 24 this morning and tried the live boot on an Acer notebook. To my surprise, it actually recognized the wireless and I was able to get on, but I couldn't fire up any programs (including terminal). All I'd get was a spinning cursor. Granted this was just on one notebook, and I'm going to install 24 on the notebook as soon as I put an SSD in it, but it seems like the installation quality has gone down significantly. I actually liked being able to select my packages during install.
Incidentally, when did systemd make its way into Fedora?
Is that a roll of dimes in your pocket or are you happy to see me?
Because we don't have the time and inclination to create our own Linux distros. If we have to do that, we might as well just use FreeBSD, Windows, macOS or some other non-Linux OS that doesn't waste our time. The whole point of using a Linux distro is to save us time and save us effort.
We used to be able to switch distros to get a different environment, but those days are long gone now that the major distros all include systemd, and many force GNOME 3 by default, too. Debian and Fedora, which once gave very different experiences, have converged. The other major distros have followed them.
Having to remove systemd, GNOME 3 and other crapware that comes bundled with Linux distros is just as annoying as having to remove crapware that comes bundled with Windows. Having to install replacements for all of this software is even more of a hassle.
We surely aren't going to waste our time with some no-name obscure distro like Devuan, or even oddball distros like Slackware and Gentoo. We don't want to use a Linux distro that may not be around next month, and we don't want to use a Linux distro that's remained in the 1990s, and we don't want to use a Linux distro that requires us to wait hours or days for it to compile software.
Linux used to offer us a lot of benefits. Now it's nothing but a hassle.
So let me get this straight. Maintaining a distro to serve your niche preferences is too much work for you, but you have all the hours in the world to make anonymous shit posts within minutes every time a Linux-related article is posted on Slashdot?
Cry me a river.
No, the web page says it is broken because 24 has several packages with higher versions than are in 25, just like CentOS's upgrade from 6 to 7 has been broken for over six months because of the same problem. Red Hat wants you to throw away servers rather than upgrade. That's why hardware makers, like Dell, love them.
The upgrade on my Workstation Spin (or whatever they call it) went just fine on the lappy yesterday by auto-downgrading a couple of programs -- kind of borked the rpmfusion part but that was mostly my fault by upgrading before the official release and messing with things beforehand. All good now except for gnome-mplayer being nowhere to be found. Only really use the laptop to watch videos on anyway so was a good guinea pig to test the upgrade process before upgrading my desktop.
Today is the desktop's turn where I have patched libs and py-modules scattered around, self-built rpms from who-knows-where and some WIP projects that rely on said custom installed libs but now you got me all scared...guess I'll just throw the computer in the dumpster and start all over with a Dell on win10 or something...
I don't deny that some people give up because they are angry about X, Y, or Z. But I think, pure and simple, the reason Linux's desktop share is so low is that nearly every computer you buy comes with either Windows or Mac OS pre-installed, and people simply aren't going to change the operating system (and in most cases wouldn't quite know how to do that either).
HP and Dell both offer no-OS options, HP offers preinstalled Ubuntu LTS on their machines, both options are at a discount to Windows installations. I haven't looked at other vendors lately.
Do me a favor. Go to Dell's and HP's websites and find me those laptops without Windows pre-installed within 2 minutes. No search engines allowed, you have to start at their home page and click to get there.
Unless you have their websites memorized, it'll probably take you a little longer than 2 minutes. Which goes to show that Linux desktops are really a "behind the counter" product of PC vendors, for the most part. They get no exposure because the vendors fear the wrath of Microsoft, despite being vastly better products.
"I would've been very, very happy if my Debian system had gotten to a login prompt, never mind a non-rescue shell, after a system update installed systemd! But it wouldn't even get that far."
Many distros (Fedora, Arch, Opensuse, Mageia etc.) switched to systemd and there were very few complaints. I upgraded distro releases that brought the switch to systemd on a number of systems without any issues.
All of the complaints about "upgrading to systemd broke my system" were "upgrading to Jessie broke my system".
So this experience of upgrading to systemd causing problems seems a bit specific to Debian. Maybe the Debian community should have spent less time arguing about systemd and more time testing upgrading to Jessie.
It's like the same 3 autistic dudes on slashdot, reddit, etc, railing against systemd 24/7. Christ, at least i've kissed a girl before.
Can you reproduce this on a distro other than Debian?
I have 100 production VMs (growing at about 8 a week as we migrate across) 20 20-core RHEV/ovirt/kvm hypervisors running RHEL7 or Centos7, and systemd hasn't caused any issues.
Yes, you may need to do customisations and troubleshoot service startup issues (usually caused by operator error, and in my case only on non-production VMs) differently, but the consistency is a bigger benefit.
nobody is forcing you. Use Void, use Gentoo, write your own DE, use KDE, use budgie for all i care. What level of autism must you have to shitpost 24/7 in this nonsensical manner?
This also pisses me off.
I dislike systemd and would replace it if it were easy, which it is not. It is not a dealbreaker for me. I feel all the systemd complaints would vanish in an instant if Devuan spun up for real, or if any one solid distro clearly decided to avoid systemd, or at least support those who don't want to deal with it.
I grouse about pulseaudio but stop shy of levying true hate on it. It does some things very well, I just get ticked when it is randomly incompatible, confused, or decides that one entire core is just for it, for some reason. These errors happen, but not that often. I think it is because it is still newish tbh.
GNOME? I despise. I will never willingly use it. But, it's very easy for me to use XFCE (or another desktop) in Fedora. Just like, super easy. So in this case, I have no complaints.
When I come to a slashdot thread about any thing related to RedHat, there's some systemd hate. Quite honestly, it gets old. Yea yea I don't like it either. That doesn't mean that literally every thread about some cool new thing RedHat did, and especially every thread about Fedora, needs to be people bitching about GNOME and systemd. I'll be running Fedora Core 24 within hours or days (I'll check to make sure everyone else running the same nvidia drivers as me is doing ok, then upgrade), and I'd like to hear people talk about the features sometimes, instead of being drowned out by the same no-news fools. Slashdot will make a systemd topic, or a GNOME topic, and you can shit that up. Maybe I'll join you! But gtfo with every linux topic, most especially every Fedora topic, being this same shit.
Having just purchased a Dell laptop with Linux already installed, I can tell you you're wrong. It took me all of 20 seconds.
Products->Laptops->For Work Select Linux for your OS Done
You knew exactly where to go, so that doesn't count. Put yourself in the shoes of a regular pleb just searching for a nice laptop to edit some office docs and light web browsing. They're not going to hunt for "Operating System" and specifically choose "FreeDOS and Linux" (yes, that's exactly what it says on Dell's website). If you just go to "Products -> Laptops -> For Work", the page displays almost entirely Windows laptops, with Chromebooks at the very bottom.
I tinkered with Linux a bit back in the late 90's and haven't used it since. I remember often fighting with installations but I was always able to conquer them eventually. I've used Windows ever since though, just because I'm lazy.
When Microsoft decided to make the upkeep of my Windows 7 installs a pain I decided to look into Linux again. I thought that SURELY it was polished as a marble by this point. I've had much more difficulty this time than I did the LAST time that I took an interest. I just assumed that I had become dumber in my old age. But I see so many people like you citing the exact problems that I'm having and then blaming them on systemd that it makes me wonder if I came back just in time to see Linux broken by bad decision making? :|
If you'd enlighten me as to the exact error you're having, I can try to help. But in literally every installation I've done or assisted with, it's as easy as "Burn Linux ISO to USB drive, reboot, change boot order to USB drive #1," and then everything thereafter can be done with hitting enter repeatedly. This has been true both before and after systemd was adopted.
I suspect that it's the same AC every single time because of the posting style (paragraph break every two sentences, constant use of the plural first-person nouns, the exact same arguments repeated over and over again), but I'm not 100% sure.
Also, a lot of people buy their computers at a brick-and-mortar store. You're not going to find Linux at your local BestBuy/Walmart.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
I see so much anger over GNOME 3 and systemd here.
What you're seeing is called a vocal minority. Bonus points if you failed to realise the people on forums, reddit and slashdot are often the same.
Guess what, the sky didn't fall, BSD didn't overtake Linux as the main OS of choice, and in general the vast majority of Linux users (myself included) simply just don't give a shit.
Even if you know where to go, Dell still charges significantly more for Linux laptops with the same specs as a Windows one. Why would anybody buy that? I suppose if Canonical got a significant cut, maybe... but do they?
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
Why this need to frame dissent and disagrement as 'anger'? That doesn't look like a sincere attempt to engage in debate but to discredit opponents.
This is a constant trend with the Redhat ecosystem, to dismiss debate and dissent away as angry people, grey beards or disgruntled elements without engaging in discussion.
The dicussion of the merits, approach, practices of systemd for instance were clevrly deflected by framing it as old vs new issue which made every discussion toxic. So discussions like the real benefits of systemds, project scope, compatability with the rest of the Linux ecosystem never happened or widely understood. The initial benefits of systemd was supposed to be boot time. While this was happening Udev was integrated with systemd as was Logind and Gnome leaving distributions with little choice but to adopt systemd. Now it's claimed boot time was never the issue but that since every distribution has adopted systemd it must be a good thing. And now they want a kernel bus. Does this look like the actions of a good actor?
It's the volunteer effort of thousands of developers and committed users that got free software where it is and companies like Redhat to their intitial billion in revenues not the other way around. Now this economic power is used to hire developers, take over projects, influence peddling and politics making it much more difficult for individual contributers to thrive. Why not just contribute funds to quality projects instead of hiring all the developers? Because they want influence. You are not going to piss off Redhat if your income depends on it. How does an individual or a small group improve or evolve the Linux ecosystem now being developed by a large numbers of paid developers? Isn't this is a net negative for open source.
Redhat is a 2 billion cathedral born in the bazaar and as we know from history cathedrals are primary interested in self preservation. Notice the recent shenanigans against Ubuntu Snap by a Fedora maintainer which is rich given Redhat/Fedora themselves are pushing the competiting xdgapp, and this when Ubuntu is barely a threat to Redhat.
Ubuntu is not colloborating with the freedom loving defence and secret government orgs yet Redhat is untainted and its Ubuntu and others who get the bad press. This is astrotrufing and image management by Redhat and its supporters who are always at hand to deflect, derail and diminish.
There's like twenty other init systems, and somehow every single of them but systemd manages to be relatively easy to replace.
Glibc is replaceable: musl is pretty feature-complete. It's intentionally not bug-compatible, though, preferring being true to POSIX rather than glibc, which means programs relying on specific glibc quirks might need some porting. Any sane upstream accepts such portability patches (guess which init system refused them...).
And as for the kernel... on Debian, beside Linux, you have kfreebsd (in a good shape), hurd (in a bad shape, but that's a fault of Hurd not the porting), and if you include unofficial ports, there's Solaris.
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Here's a tip: download Linux Mint KDE Edition.
No system (though it's coming; they're very conservative and are waiting for it to be better-tested by other distros). No GNOME3 (at all, the choices are KDE, Cinnamon, MATE, and Xfce). The only "crapware" I can find is that their version of Firefox makes Yahoo the default search engine, which isn't hard to change. And LM has been around for years now, with no signs of fading away.
I do agree that there's been too much convergence, especially with the DEs which is what the user interacts with the most, yet is also the component where it's not all that useful to have a single standard, unlike other lower-level parts. I honestly have no idea why Gnome3 has been adopted so widely, when it's really the antithesis of the hacker ethos that Linux came from. Gnome is all about removing user choice and dumbing things down for casual users, not providing a powerful and configurable environment for power users or anyone who wants the ability to customize their system. Even MacOSX is probably more customizable than Gnome3.
My 2cents is the Linux ecosystem doesn't work well together, you might have a stable OS, but then the UI and apps suck balls, there is no good financial backing for consumer software companies to make apps for the OS. There are many times I tried to use Ubuntu for my work machines, while it's easy to use for software dev box but the apps I wanted to use were not there, the desktop was so unstable to make me move to OSX. OSX is great, you get a decent shell, and also stable desktop and plenty of solid apps.
Honestly I'm embarrassed to even have the same interests as these people now. It's at the point where we get a post about a new distro release, not even any baiting in TFS about systemd, and the comments are still hijacked with the same old hateful bullying.
There is now a Debian fork (among other alternatives) where I'm sure you will all be welcome. So kindly fuck off.
Wannabe nerd.
Relatively few people complained about Vista, 8, and 10. Same difference. Just a vocal minority that actually cares. For the most part, Vista, 8, and 10 all worked fine. All the same.
Because none of those twenty are deliberately viral, requiring that services be rewritten for use by systemd... such that going back to not using systemd shortly requires more effort than using it originally did. Of course, the next release of systemd will include whatever these services are within itself anyway. Once you let the borg inject nanoprobes into your neck...
This isn't to say that existing SysV-like init managers don't have problems or a need to be re-architected and cleaned up of many years' cruft. But to say that something like systemd is the answer is like observing that you have atherosclerotic arteries, and concluding that the solution is to cut them out and install lead pipes instead.
Slackware with dropline gnome 3.20 will also be out shortly :)
Saxa
I miss having to startx manually and landing on blackbox/fluxbox for the window manager to conserve memory & CPU. Yes, I'm the old codger who still thinks INIT is better than the newfangled whatchamacallit. Not trying to troll, but I get carried away and feel really old when I feel the need to post a rant like this when I see an aarticle about a GUI that's way overkill. CLI! CLI! CLI!
(Slinks back into his cave)
Holy happy hippy crap!
Oh yes. Debian. Sabayon. Gentoo. Ubuntu. Fedora.
I can experience super fun to troubleshoot sytemd failures. I've given up ticketing the bugs and just avoid (or barely accept when necessary) systemd. When there's no longer an option to avoid it, I'll leave linux. LIKE: I can't copy and paste from konsole, sometimes (but only sometimes). Sometimes, stdout goes somewhere else. The solution is to close that tab and open another. Usually after less exits weirdly. Must be a less problem. Random bootup problems. Nifty log failures where systemd shits the bed semi-regularly spams the hell out of logs. Talk to me about multipath, a large number of devices and dm-raid someday (the reason I stopped opening tickets with RedHat despite the fact that we paid more than a million/year in support). Fuck redhat and fuck Fedora.
I've tried. I wanted to like SystemD (I actually hated SystemV init), but.. SystemV init had one thing going for it that systemD doesn't- deterministic boot. I've never had to reboot servers like I have under systemd. I've never had to solve software issues by rebooting a desktop (ok, Win95 excluded) like I have since migrating to systemd on a desktop. And I've honestly never lost this much data.
All of that is no-shit and Linux has been the primary OS on multiple systems of mine for years. SystemD truly sucks. When I can't find SystemV-init, I'll leave for some fucking BSD and hate myself. Or, I'll load Windows again (what I suspect is the real motive of the systemd lobby). Either way, fuck systemd.
It's still not quite to the point where people who have had gnome2 on their workstations for a decade are not going to be annoyed by it. Centos5 still gets updates and still has gnome2.
I've had a few of them, and fucking insane shit like suggestions to kill all background processes when a user logs off indicate that there are many more to come thanks to the systemd team wanting to change *nix into something completely different and stop all old software from working. I still use systemd on a few desktop machines but have had to roll some systems back to an earlier version due to weird shit happening with init.
To me an init system that hangs on startup overnight just because it cannot recognize a USB wireless mouse dongle has some serious design flaws. That "fast parallel init" that Lennert promised but did not deliver as described should not block on a single hardware item plugged into USB.
As for syntax, try typing "systemctl isolate multi-user.target" in a hurry instead of "telinit 3". WTF is wrong with Lennart and why is his manager too much of a wimp to let him get away with stupid shit?
On the Gnome 3 front, I'll agree that it's probably easier to just go with MATE desktop if you miss Gnome 2 that much.
The KDE Spin of Fedora is high quality. Not perfect, but certainly usable out of the box.
Sendmail is like emacs: A nice operating system, but missing an editor and a MTA.
systemd has caused some headaches and there's frustration because expressing those headaches is meat with mostly useless 'me toos' or dismissive 'you are just trolling'. Not a whole lot of 'well, let's see what we can do to address the specific concerns', but instead calling out such viewpoints as just flat out wrong.
Really. I have been using Fedora from the 1990's and have been using it exclusively on my own PC's for over eight years. I have never had a problem with SystemD. As for the enterprise you have to raise change requests and get everything signed off before you are allowed to make changes to any computing system. Going in guns blazing is a sure fire way of losing your job.
If you don't like "SytemD" that is your prerogative but if you are managing computer systems it is not professional to dump on a particular application without proof otherwise your credibility will take a tumble. For home use, if you don't like something then you are free to choose an alternative.
There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
>I've had a few of them, and fucking insane shit like suggestions to kill all background processes when a user logs off indicate that there are many more to come thanks to the systemd team wanting to change *nix into something completely different and stop all old software from working. I still use systemd on a few desktop machines but have had to roll some systems back to an earlier version due to weird shit happening with init.
That issue was an update on Debian that reset a configuration namely the "#KillUserProcesses=" in /etc/systemd/logind.conf being set to "yes" instead of "no". This issue never impacted Fedora.
I will agree that any update changing pre-set configurations is reprehensible, after all, we know that Microsoft would never do that .... Oh wait! :-)
There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
>> New GNOME (in Fedora 24) will also let you easily upgrade to Fedora 25
Ummm...that's one of your "tons of improvements"?
Unfortunately yes. Fedora has had a huge problem with upgrades in the past. They believe they have finally fixed that.
You do know that Fedora has had "spins" for a few years now. You can choose KDE, XFce, LXDE, Mate-Compiz, Gnome, Cinnamon, SOAS (see here ).
As for upgrading or fresh install, I find that it is actually quicker to do a fresh install providing you have configured your filesystems such that your system filesystems don't contain user data. Obviously, due diligence is important here in that you should know what add-ons you require (ie. document them) and any configurations you need such as password and group files (easier to save the /etc directory (it's not that big). For me, going from Fedora 23 to Fedora 24 should take me about an hour since my system filesystems are on an SSD while the rest of my user data is on a 3TB HDD.
It actually took me less than 20 minutes to install Fedora 24 in a virtual machine which was running under Fedora 23. Of course, no matter which way you go it is essential to do backups.
Here is a default install of Fedor 24 on a virtual machine (only showing relevant parts)
Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
/dev/mapper/fedora-root 17938864 4596544 12408024 28% / /tmp
/dev/sda1 487652 113609 344347 25% /boot
tmpfs 1986484 24 1986460 1%
Of course, you may want to add a /usr and /var filesystem but you can always mount appropriate user data filesystems such as databases and web information. A separate /home filesystem IMHO is essential as is additional filesystems associated with user data as long as you can differentiate between what is system data and user data then you don't have to worry about updating when you get a new release. In fact, his concept works for pretty much on all modern operating systems including Unix and even if you want to go to the dark side, MS Windows.
There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
I'm very confused as to where you thought I was saying anything about 'going in guns blazing'. Also, Fedora didn't exist in the 90s.
I'm also unsure how you think every criticism constitutes dumping on systemd without 'proof'. A prominent example is the complaint that journald uses a binary format for logs. This is not some spurious claim without 'proof', it simply is the reality, but people disagree on the cost/benefit facet.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Somebody mod this guy up, he's right. Its the main reason why I switched away from the RH ecosystem. And before anybody tries to throw the "hipster" slur, I'm probably old enough to be your Dad. I've been at this for awhile, and there are good reasons to think the more traditional UNIX way was better.
That's great! If you're comfortable with the way you're accustomed to doing things, I have nothing against you. I'm just trying to figure out why so many people shit on the hard work done by FOSS developers, who spend time and money to give stuff to the world entirely for free (as in beer AND speech) and don't force you in any way to use it. I don't like GNOME Shell, but I don't anonymous shit-post every article about Linux. I just don't use it, and I don't suffer from apoplectic fits knowing that some peoples' opinions differ from mine.
What I'm trying to understand is the constant critique of others when you are free to do your own thing. Linus started developing the kernel all by himself and now there's hundreds (thousands?) of folks helping him out. Each of the distros started as an idea by a few people, then grew as more people liked what the first few were doing.
I for one don't care that my laptop uses PulseAudio, SystemD, NetworkManager, or Gnome Shell. As long as they work for what I want to do, why should I care? Sure, there are a handful of times Gnome has crashed, but it's still far fewer times than Windows XP or 7 has crashed for me.
If you don't like the way something is being done, use something that you do like. If you know enough about the internals to bitch and moan about the intricacies of SystemD vs SysVInit, you know enough to piece together something you do like. Stop bitching about RedHat and make your own.
The Firefox making Yahoo the default search is a Firefox thing, not a linux thing at all: http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/2...
I did a dnf system-upgrade from Korora 22 to Korora 23. I had a few minor problems: notably wine (wasn't worried; I assume wine is tricky and I was able to solve it), and I had to remove and reinstall hplip and hpaio (printer drivers), and maybe one more 32-bit vs 64-bit package issue somewhere. That might have been the wine issue in one of its dependencies.
No, it's different with Linux Mint:
https://www.linuxmint.com/sear...
The thing you're missing is that in Linux, the browser is built from sources by the distro, not supplied by Firefox, so distros can and do make customizations. Linux Mint makes money by making certain search engines default on the version Firefox they package. This is different on Windows where users download a pre-built Firefox directly from Mozilla's site, and presumably Mozilla makes money the same way.
Because we don't have the time and inclination to create our own Linux distros
In other words "I want you to do all the work for me, and I'm just going to sit over here and post complaints on Slashdot and Reddit if you do it the way you like it rather than the way I like it."
Oh sure, doing a clean (upgrade) install is a breeze ... until I find an important piece of software is not included in the new version of the distro, and the available binaries are incompatible with new libraries. And the source code won't compile because the the libraries have changed and so have the header files. And the Makefiles refer to stuff that doesn't exist any more. And the paths in the Makefile are obsolete.
Then multiply that by ten for other essential programs, some of which can never be made to run again.
A breeze.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
They put shit in it, taking advantage of wealth and power they have. The pollution is spreading to all Linux distros. No, the answer must be more comprehensive than just not using the product as the harm spreads to all open source, this projects and the kind of defective minds that produce them need to be shut down
Being in there at all speaks volumes that they have no idea what people are using *nix for.
They are windows weenies with a single user non-networked mindset that are trying to reshape other stuff into that image.
Your conspiracy theory is false. But just to clarify, I don't defend systemd, I'm neutral about it. I'm defending FOSS against the insane trolling of people like you that say that systemd invaded your house and force-installed on your computers and there's no running away from it.
FOSS now allows people with inferior ability to ruin projects, that's how systemd took over Debian via a group of SJW given a megaphone
The GNU side of FOSS that provides Linux OS infrastructure is now about political correctness and not hurting feelings rather than technical excellence
nothing insane about pointing out the inferiority of a product
I'm married with teenage children, I don't rail 24x7 on reddit against systemd, yet here I often point out its garbage. Maybe your stereotypes are worthless. And maybe you are a shill for inferior engineering led by a failure of a developer, e.g. systemd