Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Ask Slashdot: Should You Upgrade To Windows 10 For Accessibility Features?

Posted by BeauHD on from the visually-impaired dept.

BarbaraHudson writes: Non-Visual Desktop Access (NVDA) is a free screen reader that is only available for Windows and comes with lots of features for people with visual handicaps. NVDA recommends to delay moving to Windows 10 because of problems with the Edge browser, PDF reading, Cortana, and applications designed for the Windows Store. There's only a few weeks to "upgrade" to Windows 10. My question is, does Windows 10 have compelling reasons for the visually handicapped to switch to it that are worth putting up with these (hopefully temporary) problems? Please note that NVDA doesn't require an internet connection to work; any Windows 10 assistive technologies that require one are a minus because they can leave the user high and dry with no notice. By the way, I've tried the KNOPPIX Adriane Audio Desktop and unfortunately it's really not there yet in comparison. Microsoft did highlight several accessibility features in the Windows 10 Anniversary update. Some of the features include faster text to speech, improved keyboard navigation, verbosity, AutoSuggest results, and support for more languages. In many of the core Windows 10 apps, Microsoft has made changes to Microsoft Edge, Mail, Cortana, and Groove to provide various features like modern web accessibility standards, improved account setup experience when using a screen reader, more reliable search and navigation functionality when using a keyboard, and better support for high DPI scaling and high contrast. There are also new accessibility resources available to developers, including an updated Visual Studio App Analysis tool to make it easier to find and fix accessibility errors, and support for Mnemonics in the Universal Windows Platform to help developers more easily provide Access Key customizations.

110 comments

  1. From my cold dead hands.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    will be the day they pry 7 away and force me to use that bloated piece of spyware/advertising filth that is Windows 10.

    1. Re:From my cold dead hands.... by mlts · · Score: 1

      Meh, I'm not so attached to an OS that I'd put my life on the line for it. Classic Shell helps make it more usable, and it does come with some security improvements.

      As for Windows OS of choice, if I did have to upgrade, I'd go with Windows Server 2016 when it goes GA. Windows Server 2012 R2 works quite well as a gaming platform, and it ships with everything disabled. Want desktop stuff, you can turn it on after installation. As an added bonus, wbadmin isn't the crippled, worthless version that is found in client editions of Windows, and is useful for a day to day backup utility if one didn't want to run Veeam.

    2. Re:From my cold dead hands.... by The+Real+Dr+John · · Score: 4, Insightful

      4 years is a long time, and considering that Windows 7 still has about 50% market share, Microsoft has some serious work to do to convince businesses and home users to switch to a service that does not offer significant advantages to Windows 7 users, and has lots of downsides. None of the features added to Windows 10 are of any interest to me at this point. Even Direct X 10 isn't a draw yet. I have 6 machines running windows 7 and none will be upgraded until Windows 10 offers me more control, rather than less. I don't want a service, I want a functioning OS. I am using Windows on computers, not phones, and I don't need it on phones. Microsoft has hundreds of millions of Windows 7 users to convince, and they are doing an exceptionally poor job of convincing them based on "features" (like forced updates).

      It is going to be a tough sell to get the other half of Windows users to switch when the new, service based OS has so much baggage.

      --
      A brain is a terrible thing to waste... Mind? That's debatable.
    3. Re:From my cold dead hands.... by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      As for Windows OS of choice, if I did have to upgrade, I'd go with Windows Server 2016 when it goes GA.

      I guess $500+ (based on 2012R2 pricing) for an OS is reasonable. But price aside, I think I'd still go with a systemd infested Ubuntu before installing any MS spyware.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    4. Re:From my cold dead hands.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meh, I'm not so attached to an OS that I'd put my life on the line for it. Classic Shell helps make it more usable, and it does come with some security improvements.

      Fully agree with this. Classic Shell didn't do much for me in Windows 8, but the Windows 10 version is a godsend. One can configure it any way one likes - to match Windows 7, Vista, XP, even 8 & 10, whatever. I installed it, and on my laptop, it's just perfect. When I had a Winbook, I used it in tablet mode, and that was good. Just that it could have supported 4 columns instead of 3.

      As for upgrading, one of the enhancements I like in 10 is the ability to have multiple keyboards. That way, one can select a keyboard in a foreign language, and still use off the shelf software like Word or PowerPoint in conjunction with that.

    5. Re:From my cold dead hands.... by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      4 years is a long time, and considering that Windows 7 still has about 50% market share, Microsoft has some serious work to do to convince businesses and home users to switch to a service that does not offer significant advantages to Windows 7 users, and has lots of downsides. None of the features added to Windows 10 are of any interest to me at this point. Even Direct X 10 isn't a draw yet. I have 6 machines running windows 7 and none will be upgraded until Windows 10 offers me more control, rather than less. I don't want a service, I want a functioning OS. I am using Windows on computers, not phones, and I don't need it on phones. Microsoft has hundreds of millions of Windows 7 users to convince, and they are doing an exceptionally poor job of convincing them based on "features" (like forced updates).

      It is going to be a tough sell to get the other half of Windows users to switch when the new, service based OS has so much baggage.

      Not to mention that they are soon going to be expected to pay for something that was previously free. Yeah, good luck with that.
      I upgraded my windows 8 box to get the start menu back. Luckily it went ok. I also upgraded a windows 7 laptop I had. It took about 10 attempts before it finally completed successfully. My mom and my aunt's boxes both auto upgraded and both died a horrible death. My aunt's computer flashes every second as soon as she logs in and my mom's computer only shows a cursor after she logs in. Not sure what the real percentage is but in my small personal sample that is a 50% failure rate (75% failure rate if you include my windows 7 box that failed multiple times before being successful). I can't imagine it really makes 50% of the computers out there unusable but even if it's 10% that's a huge amount of dead computers and pissed customers. I worked on my aunt's computer for over an hour and tried several supposed "fixes" with no luck. My guess with my aunt's computer is that it is the windows manager that is dying and restarting over and over.

    6. Re:From my cold dead hands.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, there is no reason to go all emotional over it.
      I still wouldn't recommend switching to Windows 10 right now.
      We saw how they dropped the Messaging Everywhere feature with an update and it's not like they have stopped doing updates.
      We don't know where Microsoft is going with Windows 10 and I don't think they really know themselves where they are going to end up.
      Ongoing development isn't necessarily a bad thing but in operating systems I prefer a stable feature set. It is also hard to argue for switching to something that no-one knows the features of.

      If you are the person that runs Debian testing on your Linux box then sure, go ahead and install Windows 10. You can clearly deal with not being able to do things the way you did yesterday.
      Otherwise, stick to Windows 7 or 8. (Or even XP if you don't intend to upgrade the hardware.)

    7. Re:From my cold dead hands.... by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

      The convincing comes with much better hardware compatibility. I installed Win 10 on several AMD based systems and in random order sound, video, and networking stopped working even while streaming a movie fine for minutes already. Many peripherals that I have are no longer supported in Win 10 although they are only around 3 years old. Biggest issue is the dysfunctional UI. The UI is made for mobile devices and that just sucks on a desktop. I also loathe the ribbons, they waste too much screen space and have me guess what the unintelligible glyphs mean. A menu system is way easier to navigate and stays the same no matter what I do in an app. The ribbon is a shapeshifting nightmare. The very few advantages that Win 10 brings do not outweigh the many disadvantages. As far as the OP's question goes...I would not count on the NVDA tool to work on Win 10 any time soon unless there is a contractual obligation by the vendor. Win 10 is out for a year now and companies that did not amend their apps to work with the needlessly changed models in Win 10 are unlikely to do so any time soon. It may happen once there are more requests from NVDA users that indicate that lack of Win 10 support will be bad for business.

    8. Re:From my cold dead hands.... by The+Real+Dr+John · · Score: 1

      Yeah, MS thinks that phone toys and desktop power systems (gaming, non-linear editing, content creation) are somehow exactly the same, and therefore need a similar toy interface meant for a 4 inch screen. Not sure why they are thinking that one size fits all, when it clearly doesn't. They are focusing on toys, not serious computers, and that means that serious computer users are not going to make the switch. On top of that, their heavy handed tactics in trying to force WX onto every computer through updates has backfired, and now everyone has automatic updates turned off (unless they are stuck with WX where you can't control updates).

      One thing they did manage to do is to make GWX Control Panel one of the more popular downloads in the world.

      --
      A brain is a terrible thing to waste... Mind? That's debatable.
    9. Re:From my cold dead hands.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      image the drive. Install windows 10 as update. If things work fine after this, image the drive. If things are screwed up install win 10 as new install at this point you should already have a key that the previous install created. If the computer is functional image the drive and restore the windows 7 from image. I have dual boot 7 and 10 on one of my computers.

    10. Re:From my cold dead hands.... by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      image the drive. Install windows 10 as update. If things work fine after this, image the drive. If things are screwed up install win 10 as new install at this point you should already have a key that the previous install created. If the computer is functional image the drive and restore the windows 7 from image. I have dual boot 7 and 10 on one of my computers.

      Yeah, funny. There is a good chance that the average non-slashdot user isn't even going to know what "image the drive" means much less be able to do it.
      My aunt thought that the windows login was her "logging on to the internet". There are plenty of other people out there who can barely connect to wifi on a fully functional computer. These people are screwed if an update hoses their computer. Their only real option is to buy a new computer (which is what my mom and dad usually do if even something minor breaks). This is possibly acceptable when it's a hardware problem or virus but seems all the more ridiculous when it is a "software update" forced on you that hoses everything.

    11. Re:From my cold dead hands.... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      You've always had multiple keyboards. Switching is just a keyboard shortcut or click away. You can also plug 2 or more keyboards and mice into one machine, same as under linux. Handy when you're left handed but others are right handed and hate using a left-handed mouse when they want to show you something.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    12. Re:From my cold dead hands.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They don't have to convince anyone. They just have to sit back and wait.

      Seriously, you people say this about every new Windows version and you haven't been right even once yet.

    13. Re:From my cold dead hands.... by tepples · · Score: 1

      I installed Win 10 on several AMD based systems [...] I would not count on the NVDA tool to work on Win 10 any time soon

      That makes me wonder: Why does NVDA (NonVisual Desktop Access) share its name with NVIDIA's stock ticker symbol?

  2. No! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Absolutely not!

  3. Should ...what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Should we widen our arses for purposes of accessibility?

    Depends on what you want.

  4. No by fnj · · Score: 4, Informative

    No.

    1. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Short answer: NO!
      Long answer: HELL FSCKING NO! NEVER in a TRILLION YEARS!! NEVER NEVER NEVER!!!

      Blind and visually impaired people don't need the SPYWARE and MALWARE that is Windows 10 any more than anyone else!

      Best description of Windows 10: One OS to rule them ALL, one OS to find them, One OS to BRING them ALL and in the DARKNESS BIND them!

  5. Well.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If I cut off my feet I won't have to worry about those recurring shoe expenses...but I think I'll take my chances.

  6. Just say "NO" to thugs! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and creepy peepers & forced advertising & (coming soon!) recurring subscription fees.

  7. If you don't need it don't by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

    It's not a hard calculation.

    1. Re:If you don't need it don't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're going to stick with windows then it's inevitable. Switch OS or upgrade.
      Personally I don't use windows on my home pc, but people need to decide what they're doing. Gamers will probably need to upgrade sooner rather than later.

    2. Re:If you don't need it don't by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      If NVDA worked under linux or bsd, I'd use one of them.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    3. Re:If you don't need it don't by SumDog · · Score: 1

      The OP mentioned Linux distros geared to accessibility support.

      I worked at an all open source shop (religiously so even), yet their blind (completely blind) accessibility engineer was one of two people in the 200 person company running Windows. The other was a graphics designer that needed Photoshop and Illustrator.

    4. Re:If you don't need it don't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, it's too bad. I'm sorry I don't know anything about NVDA, I use OpenBSD personally. I guess I'm just saying if you're stuck with Windows then I myself would upgrade if the features worked. Aside from the complaints about Microsoft spying(that can or has maybe has been pushed to 7 anyways), I would purely for 1-latest security features 2-more compatible with newer hardware 3-learning your way around the new version of the OS you're stuck with. Eventually 7 will be left behind and you'll be scrambling to figure out the new one.
      I'm no windows expert though!

    5. Re:If you don't need it don't by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      8.1 will be end of normal life in 2018, and 10 in 2020, extended updates will end 5 years after. I think in 10 years a new laptop would be in order anyway. Or maybe something else will come along - who knows? Look at how fast netbooks came and went, tablets came and went ... Just want the best solution, whether it's NVDA and current windows, or the accessibility features in 10.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    6. Re:If you don't need it don't by t0y · · Score: 1

      He's the OP.

    7. Re:If you don't need it don't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ze's the OP, you mean.

    8. Re:If you don't need it don't by donaldm · · Score: 1

      The OP mentioned Linux distros geared to accessibility support.

      I worked at an all open source shop (religiously so even), yet their blind (completely blind) accessibility engineer was one of two people in the 200 person company running Windows. The other was a graphics designer that needed Photoshop and Illustrator.

      If there was an open source policy I can only see the odd person using MS Windows if there wasn't a Linux equivalent. I somehow don't think "Oh it does not look the same as Windows" or "I will have to be retained" are appropriate excuses particularly for people who are supposed to have some brains. Most MS Windows-centric applications have Linux equivalents that are as good and sometimes better.

      --
      There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
    9. Re: If you don't need it don't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, OpenBSD is unparalleled to any other type OS, even those similar, so I'm not sure you can realistically compare that to Windows on ANY level whatsoever, be it accessibility, security, binary compatibility, release schedules, whatever. I'm sorta confused why you'd add that tidbit for this topic, when the two are such polar opposites in almost every aspect. Yes, I did see your ending disclaimer. In this context, all your points 1-3, while mostly valid aren't that compelling to be personally.

    10. Re: If you don't need it don't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, OpenBSD is unparalleled to any other type OS, even those similar, so I'm not sure you can realistically compare that to Windows on ANY level whatsoever, be it accessibility, security, binary compatibility, release schedules, whatever. I'm sorta confused why you'd add that tidbit for this topic, when the two are such polar opposites in almost every aspect. Yes, I did see your ending disclaimer. In this context, all your points 1-3, while mostly valid aren't that compelling to be personally.

      OpenBSD is excellent.
      However, I'm not seeing the accessibility features that Windows has. That's what the OP is asking about.
      So, yes, we can compare features, and no, OpenBSD fails this one.

    11. Re:If you don't need it don't by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      Why? Windows 8 is supported until 2022. No need to jump the gun.
      Gamers probably will NOT need to upgrade. Until market share gets bigger there's no reason to require using DX12 in a new game. Right now even, no games requires DX11, there's no need to upgrade over stuff like that instead it's just for bragging rights to show how some of your pixels might look better if you squint just right.

    12. Re:If you don't need it don't by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      No. 2018 is the end of "mainstream" updates. That means nothing. Because once there's a new Windows version then ALL previous versions stop getting useful non-security updates immediately. If there's a must-have feature it will never show up on older revisions. That's been the Microsoft way for a very long time now.

      Note, "mainstream" support for Windows 7 has *already* passed! And yet people are still running Windows 7 and still being productive with it with no loss in security.

      Security updates are what matters most. And extended support lasts until 2023 for Windows 8.1, and until 2020 for Windows 7.

    13. Re:If you don't need it don't by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      "Zie?" I paid good money to fix my birth certificate to say "female." I'm certainly not going to replace "F" with "X", even though the government is thinking of allowing it. I'm all for "whatever floats your boat", but still ... :-)

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    14. Re:If you don't need it don't by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      I worked at an all open source shop (religiously so even), yet their blind (completely blind) accessibility engineer was one of two people in the 200 person company running Windows. The other was a graphics designer that needed Photoshop and Illustrator.

      I was thinking about that last night and earlier today. If someone can do graphics design, maybe I shouldn't have given up so quickly on doing more coding ... (but it was a really frustrating experience every time I tried. Think ALL CAPS vs camelCase vs ProperCase/TitleCase vs underscores_all_over_the_place and dot notation ...)

      Thanks for the insight.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  8. NO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No! Never!

  9. Most of accessibility features go the other way by JoeyRox · · Score: 3, Informative

    As in Microsoft accessing your personal information and computer habits and selling it to the highest bidder.

    1. Re:Most of accessibility features go the other way by Tablizer · · Score: 2

      Indeed, Windows 10 improves Microsoft's "accessibility", of your system to them.

      --
      Table-ized A.I.
    2. Re:Most of accessibility features go the other way by donaldm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Indeed, Windows 10 improves Microsoft's "accessibility", of your system to them.

      That's an understatement. If you buy/get a PC with MS Windows 10 already installed I would be very surprised if any of the privacy settings were turned off. Even installing from ISO (can download from Microsoft for free) you should never just click on the "Express Settings" and instead, opt for the "Customise". If you do select the "Express Settings" all security settings are turned on by default so you will need to customize later and except for the more technically oriented most people won't do this. Yes, the "I have not got nothing to hide" mentality is alive and well.

      Even if you are fairly IT technical you still have to fiddle with Registry and while there are third-party applications that can help, you have to ask the question "Do I really trust them". Even if you think you have locked down (good luck) your system it only takes an update from Microsoft to turn some security settings back on.

      --
      There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
  10. Have mercy on the cripples by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why would you want to cripple them more?

  11. Compelling reasons? by PPH · · Score: 3, Insightful

    For the visually handicapped to switch to it? Yes. They won't have to look at it.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Compelling reasons? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i'm partially blind and deaf... i'm still on vista. maybe when the hearing goes the rest of the way i can switch to 10.

    2. Re:Compelling reasons? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      That's an interesting feature. I always thought Windows 10 was aimed at the mentally handicapped crowed rather than the physically handicapped.

  12. two things by louden+obscure · · Score: 1

    I saw a visual studio reference in the summary.
    Why do the blind need a GUI? Or a monitor for that matter...
    Well three things then.

    --
    Serenity now, insanity later.
    1. Re:two things by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      The only mention of Visual Studio was in the block of text added by the editors. However, to answer your question, not all visually handicapped people are 100% blind, but it can be a real PITA to try to use a screen all the time, no matter how large it is, to the point that most of the time it would be easier to just use a screen reader.

      And then sometimes you want to show things to someone or they want to show you something, and they can't use the computer without seeing what they're doing.

      I wonder how much battery life can be extended without a screen? And how much weight without the cover holding it ... a high-end computer should go for a lot less used if someone is looking at having to replace a 4k laptop screen.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  13. Paul Thurrott link doesn't really answer the quest by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

    The link to Paul Thurrott doesn't really answer the question - it's just a copy of the generic new feature list in the anniversary update, with no information about what parts need the Internet to work, or whether Edge has now been fixed to work with other screen readers.

    NVDA has had the "new" features like speech "up to double the words per minute" for quite a while, and there's no indication that Edge will work with screen narrators other than Microsoft's. (sigh)

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  14. Accessible for Microsoft? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    All in all, I'd have to say that Windows 10 is far better at making your computer accessible to Microsoft than making it accessible to the user.

  15. Probably the first of a series by QuietLagoon · · Score: 1

    This is probably the first of an ongoing series of "articles" subtly prodding laggards to move to the wonderfulness of Windows 10 data harvesting.

    1. Re:Probably the first of a series by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Absolutely not! I turned off all updates a couple of months ago to prevent "accidental" upgrades. I just want to know if anyone has any experience with the accessibility of Windows 10, does it offer anything not already in the NVDA screen reader program. If not, no "upgrade" - which is why "upgrade" is in quotes in the original post.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    2. Re:Probably the first of a series by DaveM753 · · Score: 1

      Yup... a new category should be created: "Ask Slashvertisement"

    3. Re:Probably the first of a series by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really I think it's a dilemma for some people as the deadline nears for the free upgrade. Not likely an ad.
       

    4. Re: Probably the first of a series by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Instead of "think of the children" now it's "think of the blind and impaired" -- sorry, but no. I'm not insensitive, but this seems more like manipulation propaganda than any actual true functional gain that couldn't be accomplished through other means.

    5. Re: Probably the first of a series by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Unless they can replace the functionality of NVDA, the answer to the "upgrade" will be no. It wouldn't be so bad except for their stupid deadline forcing the issue. And I'm sure I'm not alone.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  16. Microsoft doesn't allow most people to upgrade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They don't allow Enterprise or any version of Windows besides 7 or 8 iff it isn't one of the editions they exclude. I don't know anyone that is allowed to upgrade to 10. I want to upgrade, but everything I have is running 7 Enterprise or Vista Ultimate. It sucks that Microsoft has released a new product that is better, but they don't allow the vast majority of people to upgrade to it.

    1. Re:Microsoft doesn't allow most people to upgrade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They don't allow Enterprise or any version of Windows besides 7 or 8 iff it isn't one of the editions they exclude. I don't know anyone that is allowed to upgrade to 10. I want to upgrade, but everything I have is running 7 Enterprise or Vista Ultimate. It sucks that Microsoft has released a new product that is better, but they don't allow the vast majority of people to upgrade to it.

      This. It is odd. I have eight Windows laptops or desktops in my house if you include my wife's work laptop, and none of them can upgrade to 10. Microsoft doesn't want people to upgrade. We can't even get a quote out of them at work to upgrade 7 Enterprise. We really need it for testing since a few of our customers are now running 10.

    2. Re:Microsoft doesn't allow most people to upgrade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you assemble computers yourself, using an OEM version of win 7 and 8 no longer allowed, so you will be using a retail version now. But the "free" upgrade to win 10 will be locked to that machine hardware, unlike your original retail version of Windows 7 or 8. (I think there was an on-line form with a self-build licence, allowing the use of OEM media of win 7, but this was discontinued again in win 8)

      And I like it. The more more pages I can write about complex software restrictions, that change without notice for every version, and sometimes changes the terms and conditions after the software is bought, or software subscriptions that can jack the price or change the terms and conditions blocking the usage in our situation is fun too.
      I can contrast this with GPL software, which has absolutely no restrictions on how or how we would use it, and even allow is to make changes to it with only a simple restriction that we make those changes available _IF_ we for some reason would want to start selling that software.
      I can list some simple technical limitations of the software, and that we need to write some simple training material, and it is till looks like a risk-free walk in the park, compared to the complex licensing restrictions of alternative software.
      With GPL software we can even use all available options, and keep using what works best, so it's almost impossible to make the wrong choice.

      A lot of commercial software is moving to subscription models, but most are imposing a _LOT_ of restrictions, meaning that we pay full price for everyone even if we need to use the software rarely. With a short list of subscriptions for each desk, I quickly blow through the IT budget, which puts GPL back on the table.

  17. Windows 10 App Essentials for NVDA by westlake · · Score: 1

    Asking this crowd for advice about Windows 10 is a waste of time.

    This is where you need to go: NVDA Community Add-ons: Windows 10 App Essentials Last updated June 18. But allow me to suggest that accessibility is something that Windows does quite well and a free upgrade to Win 10 is not something to be dismissed lightly if you are at home in the Windows environment.

    1. Re:Windows 10 App Essentials for NVDA by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      I included the link from NVDA warning about compatibility problems with 10, which is why I'm asking if 10 is a better solution. If NVDA were available for other systems, I wouldn't be using Windows any more. It came with the machine, and the screen readers under linux are buggy buggy buggy.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    2. Re:Windows 10 App Essentials for NVDA by t0y · · Score: 0

      Good advice. Poor OP is following up comments and not getting much help other than the usual drivel.

  18. I don't want to upgrade.. by kysmet4e · · Score: 1

    Hello. My idea is not to upgrade to Windows 10. I am currently with Windows 8.1 ... When is the FINAL day that we should upgrade to 10? Does anyone know this?

    1. Re:I don't want to upgrade.. by willoughby · · Score: 1

      July 29

      http://www.zdnet.com/article/w...

    2. Re:I don't want to upgrade.. by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      July 29th. After that it will (maybe) safe to turn updates back on.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    3. Re:I don't want to upgrade.. by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      You can upgrade now and then roll back. Then you have Windows 10 license "locked in". There's no authorization code anymore, instead it saves your machine identification in its database.

      Make a backup first though. And make sure it actually works if you can. I screwed up and did a Windows 8.1 image backup. Then it turns out I can't recover from it because I don't have a recovery disk, and I can't make a recovery disk because of screwups along the way. Originally it was windows 7, then upgraded to windows 8, then upgraded to 8.1, and in that last step the update removed some files necessary to make the recovery disk, and you can't do the recovery disk from any other OS version than the one it was created for, and I made a recovery disk on someone else's 8.1 machine but it fails to find my image backup on my external drive... So I'm stuck with a lot of junk files left over from the temporary upgrade to Windows 10 which are difficult to delete. But at least it still works.

      Also avoid all the stuff that asks you for a Microsoft Account or ID or whatever. Don't accept any "express" install options or defaults. Their optional default features are all useless or dangerous except for one (anti web site spoofing feature that most browsers have).

      The upgrade is pretty damned slow. Slowest update I've seen yet, and it's the fastest computer I've ever done it on. When you're done it's a hell of a lot uglier than Windows 8.1, though maybe with a lot of work you can fix it back up. So roll back immediately until you have a few days to spend customizing it.

      (ugh, delete a start menu item that you don't want, like a candycrush advertisement, and it leaves a hole rather than reshuffling other icons to fill it in)

  19. Err, yes. No wait, no. What, wait? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

    Ask Slashdot: Should You Upgrade To Windows 10 For Accessibility Features?

    Should I upgrade? Or do you mean "you" meaning you?

    Wait, who's asking the question?

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  20. tit seemns grest by tezbobobo · · Score: 1

    I'a,m blind amnd I'msa writtngb htois on my win0sws labtop righjt onow!

    1. Re:tit seemns grest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      tit seemns grest

      tits don't seem great, they are great.
      great enough that you might even want to become a woman to get some tits
      just ask "Barbara"

  21. Re:Should You Upgrade To Windows 10 For Accessibil by nult · · Score: 2

    No, they scrapped RDP access on the home version of the OS which is LAME. Kinda defeats the idea of "Accessibility Features".

  22. Re:Paul Thurrott link doesn't really answer the qu by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

    Lol, "Edge", the little browser that couldn't.

    When I tried it, it crashed half the time I tried to visit slashdot and would politely inform me that it had "stopped working", then try and reload the page. And then it would crash again, and again, and again. After several iterations of that crap I'd close it and use Firefox.

    And it wasn't just slashdot, it was a slew of sites that caused it to barf and reload, barf and reload, barf and reload, barf and reload....it couldn't even render Yahoo's front page without falling on its face. The Daily Mail, the BBC home page, Kitco, Neatorama, it couldn't/wouldn't load any of those sites half of the time.

    Thanks Microsoft, but I'll stick with Win 7 when I need a Windows machine and use Linux Mint for everything else.

    --
    Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
  23. Microsoft people responsible for this ad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    no fuck off we'll upgrade when you force us and you already know that which is why you're forcing us

  24. No July 29 deadline for accessibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    The Windows 10 upgrade will continue to be free post July 29 for people who use accessibility features...
    https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/accessibility/2016/05/06/accessibility-and-the-windows-10-free-upgrade/

    1. Re:No July 29 deadline for accessibility by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      And how are yo supposed to prove it after the deadline? Someone else asked the same question, and all they got were "keep an eye on this blog as we get closer to the deadline." In other words, they haven't figured it out and are winging it. I don't trust them all that much, and it's stuff like this that fuels the distrust.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  25. Microsoft finally got something right! by penguinoid · · Score: 1

    It's an irrelevant question. If someone was visually handicapped they almost certainly wouldn't have been able to avoid being automatically "upgraded". It's hard enough for non-handicapped people to avoid the "upgrade".

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    1. Re:Microsoft finally got something right! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a simplistic view. I have a blind friend. He's running XP and 7. In general, blind people are not in a position to handle computer setup by themselves. Most will have help. If their helper decides they should update to Windows 10 that will require extensive retraining and probably a new, expensive copy of their screenreader. So the conversion had better be very well justified.

  26. No. Hell no. I do believe you'd get you ass kicked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    .. for doing something like that

  27. As someone who actually uses Windows 10 by hackwrench · · Score: 2

    If you have a PC with only 4GB of memory, don't even touch it. I had to upgrade my laptop from 4GB to 12GB for it to become really usable. I actually run the Windows Insider Home builds. My mom runs the ordinary Home version and now has an 8GB machine. I actually run my laptop closed and upgraded from a 24 inch 720p TV as a monitor to a 32 inch 1080p TV as the monitor. I was changing the size of the text in Windows elements in Control Panel Display to 20 on the 24 inch, and have the display set to 175% and still have elements scaled to 14 on the new display. For some applications I have to turn Magnifier on.

    1. Re:As someone who actually uses Windows 10 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Honestly, MS has never been able to scale any of their GUIs properly. The best I've seen to date is OSX. Their systems are usable from 800x600 all the way to 3880x2160.

    2. Re:As someone who actually uses Windows 10 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My win 7/10 dual boot seems to work fine with 2 gigs ram and 2 core processor. I don't have a screen reader so not an apples to apples comparison.

    3. Re:As someone who actually uses Windows 10 by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      All that scrolling around with the magnifier makes me nauseous. I don't know how you do it.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    4. Re:As someone who actually uses Windows 10 by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      I find it a bit frustrating around the edges and it would be a little bit better with not keeping the cursor dead center of the view. One thing I forgot to mention that I sometimes use that can be very effective is that I run TightVNC on the desktop with VNC Viewer on a phone. My current phone is an Alcatel One Touch 5054N

    5. Re:As someone who actually uses Windows 10 by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      The resolution of your screen and how much of that memory is shared with the graphics processor is also a factor. If you actually have Cortana running, it could potentially be a resource consumer, as well as how many browsers/browser windows. Steam and other game "hubs"/clients/I don't like the term. Wired vs. wireless. There are any number of resource consumers that you might get used to having around and the performance suffered a hit with the batch I was using from 8/8.1 to Windows 10.

  28. Wait, because you can. by Zibodiz · · Score: 1

    Microsoft has already announced that Windows 10 will continue to be a free upgrade for people with accessibility options turned on, even after the deadline for everyone else. As long as they don't rescind that, I'd personally wait until Win10 is fully compatible, rather than jumping the gun.
    And, for reference, I'm someone who highly recommends the upgrade for standard users.

    1. Re:Wait, because you can. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They were just talking about Windows 10 Mobile i.e. Windows Phone 10. Which came out months after July 29th last year. So it makes sense to continue providing that as a free upgrade. Also, the economic dynamics here are very different. People can freely upgrade Android or iOS, so it would be self defeating of Microsoft to charge for a Windows 10 Mobile upgrade. But for desktops, Microsoft has always sold upgrades separately, and that's what will resume after July 29th

    2. Re:Wait, because you can. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      What about above-average users?

    3. Re:Wait, because you can. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Untrue, this is for the actual desktop OS as well.
      https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.c...

    4. Re:Wait, because you can. by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      And all they could say in response to someone who was visually handicapped and asked how they would qualify after the deadline was "watch this blog as we get closer to the deadline." In other words, "we'll let you know when we know." Hardly engenders confidence.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    5. Re:Wait, because you can. by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      What about above-average users?

      They're all on freebsd or dragonfly (or still playing around wiht plan9).

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    6. Re:Wait, because you can. by Zibodiz · · Score: 1

      Above-average users all switched away from Windows ages ago, or have a reason why they didn't, so they don't need me telling them what to use ;-)

    7. Re:Wait, because you can. by Zibodiz · · Score: 1

      https://tech.slashdot.org/stor... would seem to say otherwise.

  29. Re:Paul Thurrott link doesn't really answer the qu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NVDA has had the "new" features like speech "up to double the words per minute" for quite a while, and there's no indication that Edge will work with screen narrators other than Microsoft's. (sigh)

    Reminds me of OS/2 Warp4

  30. Upgrade to windows 10 by williamyf · · Score: 1

    As I have said in prevoius posts, Do a full backup of your system that allows Bare-Metal recovery. Then do an In-Place update to Win10. Now your machine's "fingerprint" is in Microsoft's database.

    Restore your previous OS. Voila! Free upgrade, and you can keep using your older OS.

    But, while I am no expert in accesability, none of the problems that NVDA lists are unsurmountable, as there are workarounds.

    EDGE BROWSER: InternetExplorer 11 is still included and installed in Windows10, is just not the default. Just make Explorer the default and bury EDGE as deep as you can (without uninstalling), and instruct your user to use it. Or, install an alternate browser that is compatible with NVDA. Once NVDA solves the EDGE problem, use it if you want/need.

    Windows Store APPs: DO not install any, hide the pre-installed ones, install suitable replacements. Instruct your user to NOT use the Windows Store until NVDA fixes the problem.

    PDF Reading: Is a special case of the former, as in Windows10, the default PDF reader is a Windows Store APP. Just install Adobe Acrobat Reader, change the defaults and bury the default reader as much as you can (without uninstalling).

    Best of luck

    --
    *** Suerte a todos y Feliz dia!
    1. Re:Upgrade to windows 10 by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I did a full image backup in 8.1. Turns out I can't restore from it now matter how I try. I think the upgrade from 8 to 8.1 removed some files needed to create a recovery disk, according to some online forums; I tried all the other workarounds to get it working but no luck. Can't use Windows 7 or 10 restore options etiher. Got an 8.1 restore disk made on a different computer which does actually run but it can't find my backup image even though the drive is attached and there's no option to browse for it on a local disk. I don't know why Microsoft makes this so difficult, they've always had the worst backup options of anyone out there.

    2. Re:Upgrade to windows 10 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who has the time for nonsense like that? Do you not do anything with your computers?

  31. Ask people using screen readers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Someone who uses a screen reader will best judge whether Win10 is an improvement. Most blind people are probably using Windows 7 with something like Jaws. The problem with the Windows Active Accessibility API is that it hasn't changed appreciably since Win98. It's basically a stitched-together set of existing API functions. MS never made a true set of functions to do things like easily return the text title and content of a window. As a result, a good screen reader has to use lots of little tricks. That's why good ones, like Jaws, are so prohibitively expensive. In the Win10 "improvements" to AA that you listed there's still no mention of improvements to the actual AA API itself.

  32. Accessibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Systems running a version of the Linux kernel version 3.1.6 or newer have the speakup module included.
    It provides great access to the command line via speech output.
    the brltty package supports Braille output devices.
    Personally, I use GNU Emacs with Emacspeak. It lets me build my own speaking text-based user interface.
    These can be used with espeak or festival text-to-speech software.
    These are all free and open source applications.

    The only reason to upgrade your operating system would be ongoing application support. NVDA works will in Windows 7 and 8.
    I can't think of any reason to upgrade for a screen reader.

  33. it is bait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Computers were fast 20 years ago. Video games were fun. The chips were slow but great software made up for it.

    Windows 10 isn't better. If you ran XP on the same hardware it would go hundreds of times faster. Microsoft won't sell you that. They want you to make the big expense that gets you committed to all their cool-aid.

    Remember when software wasn't about binding you to an architecture? When it was actually about serving you, instead of serving you up? Microsoft doesn't remember and doesn't want to.

    Don't buy from them. They are evil again.

  34. previously on Ask Slashdot^WMicrosoft by xororand · · Score: 2

    other "articles" that were obviously written by covert PR drones:

    >"Microsoft's newest desktop operating system comes with a range of interesting features"
    >"[it's] fiscally conservative [to upgrade]"
    >Windows 10 skeptics are subtly portrayed as being scared of all things new
    https://tech.slashdot.org/stor...
    Followed by a good dose of sock puppetry.

    >"Windows 10 offers a range of interesting features including virtual digital assistant Cortana. While these features and a substantial boost to performance and speeds could be a big reason for the fast adoption of Windows 10"
    https://tech.slashdot.org/stor...

    1. Re:previously on Ask Slashdot^WMicrosoft by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Please read the OP again. If the KNOPPIX build for the visually impaired had worked, I wouldn't have asked about Windows. I don't like Window's case-insensitive file system, it's a big pita and a relic from the days of DOS when command.com would search/run for files without respect to case.

      So it's either NVDA or Windows 10. And if Windows 10 doesn't have the features to replace NVDA, forget it. I just want to know if it does before the deadline, that's all.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  35. Not if remebering the UI is helpful, change is har by raymorris · · Score: 1

    More specifically, "no if you have some eye sight, enough to do common tasks through a combination of memory and site." My primary visually-impaired client knows that to do a certain routine task, he clicks the upper left menu, selects the first option, sets the select box to item #2, then clicks the submit on the lower right. He can't easily read the text on these UI elements, but knowing what he's looking for and where they always are, he can find them. People with good eyesight can probably relate to how they can move around their own house in near complete darkness, because they know where everything is. You only have to recognize the objects you already know, not identify unknown objects.

    The best way to piss him off is to "improve" (change) the UI. For him, at least, any new OS would be very difficult. It's much easier for him to use a system he already knows well.

  36. Upgrade and then rollback by iamacat · · Score: 1

    This will preserve your ability to install Windows 10 on that computer in future, when A11y features are sorted out or you really need new functionality.

    Though from your description, problems are mostly in new functionality that is in addition to apps that you currently use. For example, Windows 10 still has classic Internet Explorer. Consider keeping the upgrade for a week or so and seeing what you miss. You have a month to rollback.

  37. win10 sucks. but the accessibility is same by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    its just the programs that are included or not included that are the problem.

    install a different pdf reader and you're done. maybe uninstall all the app(with 3rd party to or delete from prompt running with trusted installer identity) and install a better launcher and thats it.

    really same problem with all in windows 10. it like thr os team.made a decent product and then some idioy slapped on 2 gigs off shitware written in javascript. including cortana.

  38. Re: Most of accessibility features go the other wa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    whats annoying is that it leaves all the spyware stuff running anyways. and caches the stuff.to wait.for sending to.get.turned.on accidentally by some.update.

  39. One positive thing by dbIII · · Score: 1

    One positive thing - I've got to see my parents a lot ever since MS Windows 10 ended up on the laptop they only use for web browsing and skype.

    It seems that one update or another or just sheer fragility really fucks things up on average about every two weeks and it needs serious stuffing about to get it going again. The thing doesn't have much memory so never should have got MS Windows 10 on it in the first place and that's probably why it keeps playing up.

    Sorry folks - that's the only positive thing I can think of for MS Windows 10. It provides no new applications worth mentioning, usability is far worse since the navigation to launch many things is far more cumbersome and performance is dismal.


    It's not done. Maybe come back in six months and see if it is a bit less fragile.

  40. All the "outstanding" comments are by morons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft doesn't give a single shit what you're posting on 4chan, guys. Get off Windows 7 whilst it's free to do so and before the 0 days hit.

    1. Re:All the "outstanding" comments are by morons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah. I wonder what the OP was thinking when posting this ask slashdot question.

      Actual responses? Not here.

      Blind etc users? Perhaps some, but ... way outnumbered by the idiots. I'd mod everyone here off topic if I had that many mod points.

  41. Re:win10 sucks. but the accessibility is same by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

    That works until the next update rolls in and resets all the custom app settings. Another reason to not even bother with Win 10.

  42. Personal experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My wife is blind and she is currently using Windows 10 with NVDA. Prior to her latest setup she was on Windows XP and WinEyes.

    As for compatibility problems, the items you mentioned, don't work. However, we don't consider any of them essential. You can install another browser and PDF reader. It is very disappointing that all of the windows store applications are currently incapable of accessibility. I can't say I was surprised that this was the case when Windows 10 first came out. But, they never followed up with an update that allowed the framework to work with screen readers. That said, there are normal/traditional windows application for just about every store application that exists.

    I would recommend upgrading just to stay on a recent, supported version of windows. Regular patches are important, unless your computer doesn't connect to a network or come into contact with any external files.

  43. Yes! New version has Ubuntu in user mode by armand.winter · · Score: 1

    Video demonstration http://news.softpedia.com/news...

  44. In the long run, you have the following options. by wertigon · · Score: 1

    Here are your options.

    1. Upgrade to Windows 10.

    This is the option for those of you that wish to keep on using Windows. It may not be the option you want, but face reality. Windows 7 (and 8.1) is, at this point, deprecated (as opposed to XP, Vista and 8.1 which are considered obsolete). Now you can fight this kicking and screaming but it won't change the fact that Windows 7 is deprecated. And that means at some point in the future it will no longer be supported. Imagine installing Windows XP today, on your new PC. It does not make sense. Same thing will be true for Windows 7 in a few years.

    2. Switch to something non-windows.

    There is Linux, BSD or OSX. All based on UNIX and all fine choices. You might also want to consider iOS, Chrome OS or Android. This may or may not be viable for you and WINE may or may not help you in the transition. But it is about the only other true choice.

    3. Don't upgrade or switch.

    I can't honestly see any reason why you'd want to stay on Windows 7, unless you plan to switch from Windows entirerly in a year or two, or certain key applications won't yet work with Win 10. This only prolongs the inevitable until such a time where you *have* to upgrade to Windows 10 - or switch.

    Resistance is futile. You will be upgraded.

    --
    systemd is not an init system. It's a GNU replacement.
  45. windowx s xp for ever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    windows 10 ruined my whole life

  46. Which side are 10-12 inch laptops on? by tepples · · Score: 1

    Yeah, MS thinks that phone toys and desktop power systems (gaming, non-linear editing, content creation) are somehow exactly the same, and therefore need a similar toy interface meant for a 4 inch screen.

    Does an 10-12 inch laptop with a touch screen more closely resemble "desktop power systems" or "phone toys"? There are arguments for both:

    Like desktop power systems The screen is big enough to hold two 80-column text editor or terminal windows side by side. And the screen is also big enough for small windowed "accessory" apps, as proven by "desk accessories" on the single-tasking operating system of the original Macintosh with a 9" black and white screen. (DAs ran in the running application's process; MultiFinder didn't land until System 5 and was optional before 7.) Like phone toys These laptops have touch input. And the screen isn't big enough to hold two full pages side by side.