Ask Slashdot: How Do You Deal With Unreasonable Companies?

New submitter Ash-Fox writes: I recently ran into troubles trying to get reasonable quality of support from an anti-virus vendor, where they are attempting to cop-out of providing any reasonable support and then refusing to offer refunds under the guise of their EULA does not allow it. However, their EULA does not implicitly say that they cannot provide refunds in other circumstances, as the support tries to imply, and further living in Europe (as is the anti-virus headquarters), this EULA for sales is only valid if that was provided as the terms of sales contract, which it was not. How do other Slashdotters look to address companies that behave poorly and seek to only provide at best their minimum legal requirements?

Comments

monopolies

[guygo]

We give them monopolies over public utilities.

Re:monopolies

[tripleevenfall]

And then we accept political donations from them in order to permit their monopolies to persist.

"living in Europe"

[Chmarr]

1) Report them to the Better Business Bureau
2) Report them to the Attorney General's Office
3) File a lawsuit, either in small claims court or regular court, as appropriate

Alas, he spoke the magick words "living in Europe".

Re:"living in Europe"

[Anonymous Coward]

Complain on Twitter.
That way, the whole world can see what happened.
As a prestep, make sure that your not asking for something unreasonable. If you were, the whole world would see that also.

Re:"living in Europe"

[tlhIngan]

Alas, he spoke the magick words "living in Europe".

That's even better - it means he just has to file a complaint under the Sale of Goods Act or equivalent enforcement agency which actually has teeth to force the company to respond.

Re:"living in Europe"

[aphelion_rock]

(1) Name and Shame on Social media
(2) Name and Shame on Slashdot
(3) Assuming you paid by credit card - go through the process of getting the transaction reversed

Re:"living in Europe"

[ZipK]

I complained about a flat soda that was in one of my 12 packs on twitter... No response. :(

You should stop buying Every Twelfth Can is Flat brand soda.

Re:"living in Europe"

[Anonymous Coward]

He asked how OTHER Slashdotter dealt with it, not how he should. Learn to read.

Re: "living in Europe"

[Z00L00K]

That applies to individuals, not companies. If you represent a company then it's a court decision.

The most powerful way is to publish the name of the company with the story in questiom.

Re:"living in Europe"

[Thu Anon Coward]

1- BBB is worthless
2- AG only works if they screw over a bunch of people in general in your state
3- small claims is the way to go get a default judgment and get it enforced

but since the OP lives in Europe, none of this applies.......

I find social pressure worldwide helps

[WillAffleckUW]

There's nothing like having customers and potential customers worldwide all applying pressure on a firm to make them wake up and change their behavior.

Any social media. Everywhere. Unceasing.

Since the playing field is no longer level, it's unwise to try to bargain, but wise to accept their total surrender.

try this

[JustNiz]

I'd phone them, make sure you're talking to someone a few levels up not just a tier-1 monkey, tell them your story and ask them nicely for a refund, and tell them that if they still say no then you have no option but to take them to small claims court and will also smear their name all over the internet.

Re:try this

[taustin]

take them to small claims court

Laughable if they're local to him. Not even possible if they're not in the same state.

and will also smear their name all over the internet.

Either they won't be afraid of that because they're stupid, or they won't be afraid of that because they know he's nobody, and nobody will care. Or they'll sue him for extortion.

Re:try this

[msauve]

"Not even possible if they're not in the same state."

From the summary - "...living in Europe...". As imperialistic as the US is, and as parochial as many of it's citizens are, I'm pretty sure there aren't any "states" involved in this situation. And if you're using "state" to refer to a European nation's political subdivisions, it appears you're wrong.

Re:try this

[JustNiz]

He's in the EU, where unlike the US, the system actually does defend citizens against greedy corporations.

Re:try this

[MountainLogic]

While the story is for the EU, in the US at least, write a polite, but firm letter to the chief or general legal council. A letter the the CEO of a big company may just get intercepted by an admin and shipped down to the "tier-1 monkey" you mention. Lawyers seldom get letter they can blow off and will by habit read it before shipping it off to the meat grinder of tier-1. If you can't find their legal eagle then any person in legal will do. LinkedIn is your friend here. Smaller companies may only have outside council to contact. The other place to hunt for help is to see their "about us" pages and find their advisers, investors and leadership, and reach out to those people. If they get a call from their VCs you can expect your issue will get noticed.

Re:try this

[freeze128]

I appreciate your advice, and offer a little story of my own:

I pay $50 a month for an assigned parking space in my apartment's underground garage. Several years ago, the building management painted all the walls in the garage, and stenciled stall numbers for each stall... Except for mine, and 3 adjacent stalls. I don't know why they omitted the stall number for just those few. Maybe they ran out of paint, and then just forgot to follow up.

I made a couple of requests to the rental office to have the numbers placed on my stall, but to no avail. The stalls were unnumbered for about a year.

One night, I arrive home, pull into my garage, and find another car (it was the first of the month - a brand new tenant) parked in my stall. I wrote up an official sounding note, making it look like it came from the building management company, notifying the offending car owner that they were illegally parked in stall #20, and that their license plate number has been recorded, and they will be fined $50. Any questions, ask at the rental office.

Sadly, I wasn't present in the office when that new tenant tried to explain to the building management staff that the stall wasn't even numbered. The next day, the remaining stalls (including mine) were stenciled with proper numbers. That's all I ever wanted anyway!

THE MORAL OF THE STORY: If you ask nicely, and nothing gets done, use their own customers against them.

Re:try this

[rtb61]

First thing I do and it has nothing to do with unreasonable companies is calculate the looses and how much time and effort I am willing to expend in recovering those losses. There is also the psychological impact, of how much satisfaction would be gained by forcing a reasonable outcome after the unreasonable interaction, even if the cost is higher than the return, sometimes you just have to, else you become a victim again. Then there is the fiscal suffering you can cause the unreasonable company and how much that exceeds the cost and effort you put into it. Keeping in mind if you need to deal with that company again or not and also whether it was the company or just the particular person or persons at that company that you were interacting with and whether resolution can be achieved by dealing with others at the company. Never forget if you have customers and unreasonable actions by others cause you to have undesirable outcomes with you customers, that also has to be taken into account. If unreasonable actions by others cause you to lose customer than very empathic counter actions need to be taken, a lost customers can by quite expensive and justifies quite high expenditures to force reasonable outcomes (often as proof to your customers that any negative outcomes were not your intent).

Re:try this

[Bob the Super Hamste]

Not sure if my experience is typical or not I had a fairly good experience when dealing with the US Federal Consumer Protection Bureau (CFPB), MN Department of Commerce, and MN State Attorney General's Office when I was dealing with a shit bag debt collection company and I gather now that all 3 agencies now have an open investigation into them.

The debt collection company was trying to collect a student loan debt from someone who only shared my first name. The collection company started calling and when ever I would answer there wouldn't be anyone on the line. When they would call caller ID would always list the caller as "Toll Free Call" and when looking up the number online I didn't see anything indicating who was calling. When I would answer the phone I would inform them that this is harassment, that they have been told previously to never contact me ever and that I am informing them to never contact me again. I started recording the calls (video recording) and after having them call me multiple times in the same day and being told the line above. After about a week of this and after the day when they called me 4 times and were told I filed a complaint with the MN State Attorney General seeking relief and providing what limited information I had received. A few days later the Attorney General's Office responded and provided detailed information on the company and information on who else I should be filing a complaint about a shit bag debt collection company. Additionally the Attorney General's Office had sent a demand to the company indicating that they were to no longer contact me that also demanded that they respond to an inquery now started by the Attorney General's Office.

So at that point I filed complaints with the CFPB and MN Department of Commerce. A day later I received confirmation that the CFPB had contacted the debt collector and that they were to no longer contact me by phone. Unfortunately the debt collection company disregarded this and continued to call for a couple of more days. This caused me to file additional complaints with the CFPB and MN Department of commerce about their continued harassment at this point as well as forwarding all of this information to the Attorney General's Office. A bit later I get a response through the CFPB from the debt collector in which they provided all of the information they had on the loan including the loan application (this included mother's maiden name, previous addresses current addresses, employer at the time, wage information, social security number, banking information), copy of the person's drivers license, copy of their social security card, and a letter directed to me informing me that I had 7 days to to work out payment details otherwise they would be suing me and seizing my assets. The problem is that the information I provided to the CFPB clearly demonstrated that I was not the actual owner of this debt, which they could have figured out from public records even before hand having never been in the states where the person who the debt belonged to, not ever having a drivers license from that state, having a different middle and last name, having a different birth date (over 15 years different), and attending a different school. In their letter they also indicated that they had no record of me ever answering the phone let alone being told to never call me as well as stating that they never called me after being contacted by the CFPB.

I responded to their letter with one of my own informing them that any attempt to collect this debt from me by them or any other company I will view as an attempt to defraud me and that I would also consider them a co-conspirator in the action and would be filing a criminal complaint. I explained to them that they had broken the law several times including their outright lies and that I had recorded a number of their calls and can provide evidence showing that I had told them multiple times to never contact me in the same day as well as provide evidence of them continuing to call me after being to

Re:try this

[TheRaven64]

and it's tough shit if you used a debit card

In the UK and, I believe, the rest of the EU, debit card payments are protected under the same guarantees as credit card. You can also take the company to the small claims court. The only company that I've dealt with that's made me even consider going to this length was Dell. Apple, for example, replaced a battery for me out of warranty because it had not survived the number of charge cycles that their advertising claimed and I mentioned the Sale of Goods Act (now replaced by stronger protections in the Consumer Rights Act). I've never had a brick-and-mortar store refuse a refund within the allowed period.

Re:try this

[Kinthelt]

Dell is awful when it comes to reasonability.

The 3D card on my out-of-warranty Alienware laptop died. Okay, I figured I'd just go onto Dell's web site and buy a replacement. Strangely enough, there wasn't one. I called them up, and they said that they were available, but I'd have to pay for a technician to come over and replace it. Or, I'd have to ship my laptop to Florida. They refused to sell the card by itself.

Re:try this

[JustNiz]

My point was that too many Americans are happy to value their time in terms of cash value and if its more than the cash loss they walk away.
Its actually a very selfish point of view, in that leaves society as a whole worse off.

Re:try this

[JustNiz]

It reminds me of a story my dad told me about what a Jewish landlord told him what he does when he cant get someone to admit they owe him rent money.

He emails them a bill with an obvious mistake (like double the money or much too long rent period), so when they email him back to say he made a mistake and that they actually only owe $xxx, he's now got all the evidence he needs.

You have already done it.

[Anonymous Coward]

If they are meeting "their minimum legal requirements" then you have no recourse, nor should you, other than choosing to terminate your business with them. You have done so, end.

Re:You have already done it.

[martiniturbide]

I also agree that "You have already done it", but in a different way. You have exposed Avast to all the people that reads Slashdot and I'm guessing that this is hurting the brand in a way they are paying back a lot more of what you expended on them (I guess). Let's hope they don't try to sue you for punitive damages.

Re:You have already done it.

[sjames]

There is still advising everyone you know (even people you internet know) to avoid them.

As part of a State Entity

[Dust038]

We just move the funding in our budget somewhere else, and those companies that don't care, might start to care once the money stops.

You aren't reasonable

[Anonymous Coward]

It has been my experience that people who use the word reasonable, and use it a lot like you did, are the most unreasonable people on the planet. If you've made demands that you "feel" are "reasonable" (and I put that in quotes because a feeling is all it is- there's no reasoning involved) and the vendor doesn't agree, then your one and really only solution is to get a lawyer and sue. If you don't think that is justified (and most will use the financial excuse), then I guess that feeling wasn't that reasonable after all, was it? .

Re: You aren't reasonable

[pegr]

It's beta code for an OS that came out last week, something unsupported by the vendor. It doesn't work with AV and you want a refund. https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-...

I agree, you should move to another vendor. Do Avast a favor.

Re:You aren't reasonable

[Ash-Fox]

It has been my experience that people who use the word reasonable, and use it a lot like you did, are the most unreasonable people on the planet. If you've made demands that you "feel" are "reasonable"

You know what the funny thing is? If the person had actually even checked their internal staff or checked their own support forums, they would have found it was being worked on and a fix was pending. That would have been enough to resolve the ticket with me, their support person was lazy and didn't even bother checking throughout the entire ticket, then their supervisor, right at the end did the same.

So unreasonable of me to expect a company that sells a security solution to provide some information on the certainty on supporting of features! Especially when I state out my assumptions in the following e-mail blatantly so they can correct them if I'm wrong. But no, the "customer retention specialist" some how managed to miss that again? I don't buy it, it was terrible support.

So I was gonna rant about your lack of detail

[redmid17]

Then I read your imgur post and have this to tell you:

1. It's not built-in functionality

2. It's in beta (as of 8/10/2016) - Bash on Ubuntu on Windows && Installation Guide. This is only available to a specific subset of Windows users (eg Windows Insiders Program).

Disclaimer: "This is the first release of Bash on Windows and it is branded "beta" deliberately - it's not yet complete! You should expect many things to work and for some things to fail! We greatly appreciate you using Bash on Windows and helping us identify the issues we need to fix in order to deliver a great experience."

You can't expect 100% compatibility with something still in beta. There are broken things and things that will be changed. Expecting Avast to work with it right now or refund you for a beta-product is unreasonable. Maybe common handles things differently than civil law in this case. I know Europe has better consumer protections in many many ways than the US, but I can't see where anyone would reasonably expect a refund or extensive support for a beta add-in when the product works perfectly with production level software (aka Win 10).

Re:So I was gonna rant about your lack of detail

[DRJlaw]

That depends..
If bash/Ubuntu on Windows 10 is just another program on Windows, you may expect AV software not to interfere with it, and proper support is in order.

It's not remotely so. They've created a new subsystem and introduced picodrivers and picoprocesses to enable the use of Linux binaries.

Re:So I was gonna rant about your lack of detail

[Ichijo]

Expecting Avast to work with it right now or refund you for a beta-product is unreasonable.

Marking a paid product as "beta" is a clever loophole to prevent dissatisfied users from getting a refund!

Re:So I was gonna rant about your lack of detail

[sjames]

It is an official release from MS, even if they're not yet willing to call it a final release. It doesn't sound like it's going to go away. This isn't some 3rd party something he's trying to bolt on.

It may not be Avast's fault MS surprised them with this feature, but it wouldn't hurt them to at least show a little concern about the situation. For example, by making an internal inquiry with the developers (after all, it's unlikely that only one user in the whole world will ever try the new feature). They have an opportunity here to build a lot of customer loyalty and a reputation for cutting edge (with far more than just the one user) and instead have put up a brick wall.

It's not unreasonable to expect more than talk to the hand.

Re:So I was gonna rant about your lack of detail

[DRJlaw]

Too bad the Anniversary Update was free, and the product is the operating system, not the Linux subsystem that still can't be used unless you're a Windows Insider running in Developer Mode (the penultimate beta, the ultimate being a strictly closed beta).

Re:So I was gonna rant about your lack of detail

[freeze128]

Penultimate? You have been listening to Steve Gibson's "Security Now" podcast, haven't you?

Re:So I was gonna rant about your lack of detail

[Alumoi]

Dear DRJlaw,
We hereby inform you that Windows Insider version of our software is what the outside world calls alpha version.
First release version of our software is the beta stage.
Service Pack 1 (or even 2 in some cases) is what outsider would call the finished product.
Signed,
Your friendly Microsoft CEO

Re:So I was gonna rant about your lack of detail

[Ash-Fox]

This is only available to a specific subset of Windows users (eg Windows Insiders Program).

It's available to everyone that installed the Windows 10 anniversary update.

You can't expect 100% compatibility with something still in beta.

But I can expect information like "we're working on it", "we'll have something for it in release". Which, apparently Avast were according to the forums (posted before my ticket, but I didn't find it on Google back then), but their support person never even bothered to check their own internal people or the forums.

The issue is that I paid for the product from 2014 to 2019 and I cannot have someone giving me the runaround on a security solution. I stated I would have been happy if they could confirm, they never even bothered checking despite being a "customer retention specialist", I was ready to switch to another security product, but I don't see why they should be allowed to keep my money for a product that didn't mean customer expectations of offering reasonable support responses (such as doing a simple check of whether something will be supported) if I am forced to use another product because of uncertainty.

Re:So I was gonna rant about your lack of detail

[Ash-Fox]

Anyone with the anniversary update can use it. It's not Windows Insider specific since the release.

Re:So I was gonna rant about your lack of detail

[DRJlaw]

Dear DRJlaw,
We hereby inform you that Windows Insider version of our software is what the outside world calls alpha version.
First release version of our software is the beta stage.
Service Pack 1 (or even 2 in some cases) is what outsider would call the finished product.
Signed,
Your friendly Microsoft CEO

Dear Satya,
The feature is branded "beta," deliberately. Read the FAQ

Signed,
Actual Microsoft product page

Re:So I was gonna rant about your lack of detail

[DRJlaw]

Anyone with the anniversary update can use it. It's not Windows Insider specific since the release.

As between you and the Microsoft installation guide, updated two days ago, I'm deeming the installation guide more credible.

Prerequisites
1. Windows 10 Anniversary Update - build 14393 Available as of 8/2/2016
2. x64-based processor
3. Your PC must have an AMD/Intel x64 compatible CPU
4. You must be a member of the (free) Windows Insider Program (Preferably Fast-Ring)
5. Your PC must be running a 64-bit version of Windows 10 Anniversary Update build 14316 or later

My (and likely your) Microsoft ID is still in the Windows Insider Program, even if Get Insider Preview Builds is not active on that particular installation. Unless you've actually installed it, using only a local account or one known not to have ever signed up as an Insider, you can't support that claim.

Re:So I was gonna rant about your lack of detail

[redmid17]

As between you and the Microsoft installation guide [microsoft.com], updated two days ago, I'm deeming the installation guide more credible.

Prerequisites
1. Windows 10 Anniversary Update - build 14393 Available as of 8/2/2016
2. x64-based processor
3. Your PC must have an AMD/Intel x64 compatible CPU
4. You must be a member of the (free) Windows Insider Program (Preferably Fast-Ring)
5. Your PC must be running a 64-bit version of Windows 10 Anniversary Update build 14316 or later

Two choices...

[mi2]

You can encourage creation of multiple software vendors so that the competition between them keeps them all user-friendly and honest.

Or you can declare a "market failure" and establish a single-payer anti-virus protection for all — even the poorest and the otherwise disadvantaged.

Up to you, really...

how do you know it's not Bash?

[known_coward_69]

maybe there is something in Bash preventing it from working with Avast? have you asked them?

customer retention specialist != technical support

[lusid1]

That's really the central problem from what you've posted. You need technical support so a ticket can get opened in whatever 3rd world coding farm they have outsourced the product to. Seeing that your support request is being handling by someone who's title says "customer retention" means you will never get a refund, and your issue will never be resolved. That's just not what they are there to do. On the org chart they probably roll up to the sales group.

Cut your losses and move on.

I never have this problem

[jdavidb]

I recently ran into troubles trying to get reasonable quality of support from an anti-virus vendor

rotfl, I can't imagine getting much support at all for that.

How do other Slashdotters look to address companies that behave poorly and seek to only provide at best their minimum legal requirements?

I don't buy proprietary software.

Not doing business, and public posting

[phorm]

Not doing business with them again is a start, but honestly one of the things I've found is that some businesses who do some *amazingly* bad support/PR, also seem to have public walls on their Facebook pages. I've had decent luck getting some response from businesses by posting a detailed summary of my issues on their wall.

Re:Not doing business, and public posting

[Aighearach]

Not doing business with them again is a start

Not doing business in the first place is even more effective. Do it yourself, and you won't get ripped off. If you fail, you get spin it however you want and you're guaranteed to be right. Are you sure you need to pay money for pixels, or to flip bits?

You're trying too hard

[JosephDoeden]

You've already put a lot of effort into failing, why not just move on? They make a good point. You should have tested the software better. It would be NICE of them to give you a refund, but they have no reason to, especially if you at like a dick. Walmart and Amazon will give you a refund because you buy LOTS of stuff from them. A company like this can just write you off as a loss and move on. It's their choice. You can wage a social networking war against them.. as you appear to be doing already. I wonder if your Ask Slashdot for help is more of a form of clickbait in the this case. I don't think you need help, you appear to be aggressively pursuing the issue with nicely made propaganda. What you need is distribution and Slashdot is not the place to get it, but it's not the place NOT to get it. Reddit seems like a better target for this type of thing.

Re:You're trying too hard

[Ash-Fox]

They make a good point. You should have tested the software better.

I paid a subscription from 2014 until 2019, I very much expect them to keep it updated with moving targets like operating system updates (which apparently they were, but their support weren't even arsed to check with their own people, or even their own support forums). When I get such a ridiculous response, I want to just move on to someone that will support me, especially when it comes to a security solution. This support however just sat there and told me no refunds under any other conditions. My biggest mistake is paying these things up front. In future I will look to make as tiny subscriptions as possible to limit my financial liability.

What was more ridiculous was that their own support forums I learned later actually stated before I had even posted their ticket that they were working on it -- That's all I wanted to know! Their support repeatedly never checked it despite my mentioning that, that was all it would take to appease me, instead of this uncertainty that is unacceptable for a security product.

I wonder if your Ask Slashdot for help is more of a form of clickbait in the this case. I don't think you need help, you appear to be aggressively pursuing the issue with nicely made propaganda.

I genuinely don't think anything will come of it to benefit me; but I'm happy to leave my experiences in the open for others to find and learn from.

Cancellations, threats and legal action

[guruevi]

Pretty much in that order:
- You cancel whatever service you have with them so they get no further money if you can legally do so.
- You threaten them with cancellation, non-renewal or no further sales - most smaller companies will bend over backwards to maintain clients
- You threaten with social pressure (trade groups, other departments or companies you have ties with, social media)
- You go for legal action. In European countries this is a heck of a lot easier as consumer protections are baked into the law even if you have contracts saying otherwise. In the US you have fewer protections but small claims is often viable for small companies even if you can't recover the whole sum. If you have a legal team staffed, talk to them about your options but unless you do jury trials are usually too expensive unless you get a class action going.

Don't EVER use social media or other publishing options to outline issues you have with a company. It's too easy for a big company to bully you with lawsuits and you may say something that's not strictly true or legal or even shows you violated a clause or your contract. All communications from your company should go through a lawyer.

Mention their name! Avast! Dispute the charge.

[www.sorehands.com]

Don't mention "reasonable quality of support from an anti-virus vendor" instead identify them by name and repeat it often!

I don't know if your credi card or local provides it, but here in the USA, you can dispute quality of product if it is purchased in your state or within 50 miles of home. Your home computer is within 50 miles of home.

But, when disputing the charge make it simple, "when I install it, it breaks my computer." When I remove it, it works perfectly."

Debt collectors don't like robo calls either...

[__aaclcg7560]

When I was out of work for two years (2009-2010) and before I filed for a Chapter Seven bankruptcy, my credit card debt got sold to three consecutive debt collection agencies. The first two responded well when I pointed out to the notes that indicated I was filing for bankruptcy and ceased taking action against me. The third one did not. So I played hardball by calling their phone line every minute. After 15 minutes of repeated calls that tied up their phone line (and deprived them of earning money), they took a look at the notes about filing bankruptcy and ceased taking action against me. Bullies don't like being on the receiving end.

Re:Debt collectors don't like robo calls either...

[Bob the Super Hamste]

Up higher in the page I went over my recent experience with a debt collector. While not similar to your situation I decided to take a different scorched earth approach. My solution was to get several bigger sticks that will make their life more difficult than anything I could do on my own.

Re:Debt collectors don't like robo calls either...

[__aaclcg7560]

My solution was to get several bigger sticks that will make their life more difficult than anything I could do on my own.

I had a couple of debt collectors that I complai to the state attorney general about. I got a letter from one out of state attorney general informing me that the consumer affairs division no longer had authority to investigate debt collectors due to a recent change in state law My bankruptcy attorney had to send a cease and desist letter to the debt collector.

Re:Debt collectors don't like robo calls either...

[Bob the Super Hamste]

With mine I got the best results going through the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau as far as getting a response out of the company. Granted my state attorney general's office was very helpful to me as well. The only thing I got from the state department of commerce was a notification that they had opened an investigation into the debt collector but they are also the body in my state the regulates debt collectors so that should make life difficult for the debt collector.

I would have thought that you could have really put the screws to the debt collector as I believe that once they are notified in writing, especially with a cease and desist from an attorney, that if they do contact you the debt becomes legally uncollectable and you can basically tell the to piss off and sue for harassment at that point.

Personally I hate these companies as they are all dumb as fucking rocks as I frequently get called by debt collectors trying to collect credit card debt from the previous owner of my house who hasn't lived there for almost 14 years. Most are polite enough when I tell them they have lived there in 13 years but one would think that by checking the public records they would see they don't fucking live there. Those tend to be the reputable ones and they don't hide their identity on the phone. The somewhat questionable ones that insist I am lying to them I tell them that if they ever contact me again I will sue them for harassment as is my right as I am not the person they are looking for, and then there was the really shit ball one that I went full on scorched earth on.

Find who Regulates them

[ConaxConax]

Make a complaint to the member of staff you're dealing with, if they're inadequately dealing with this then ask for a manager. If they then fail to deal with this properly within the required time then make a complaint to the professional body they're a member to, and then to their regulatory body.

Re: Simple

[Anonymous Coward]

I simply stop doing business with them.

If serious money is at issue, I exact retribution if I can.

I Don't.

[brian.stinar]

You are talking about somewhere between $50-$100, right? You walk away from it, and realize that your time could (HOPEFULLY?) be better spent on more productive things.

When a small store gave me incorrect change, and was unpleasant about the correction of that error, I walked away and never came back. Anything else would have not been worth my time. Unless you want to turn this into a hobby, I suggest you take a similar approach. Whenever anyone asks me about that store, I tell them a similar story, and advise them to go to a different store. That alone cost the store far more than when they jacked from me on my change. It was the store owner that robbed me.

Re:I Don't.

[JustNiz]

...and that way AVAST wins, you send them exactly the wrong message so the problem may even get worse, and even more unsuspecting people get screwed.

Re: I Don't.

[brian.stinar]

I did register the domain americanairlinessucksadick.com, but I let it expire rather than taking any action...

Re:I Don't.

[Ash-Fox]

You are talking about somewhere between $50-$100, right?

More, paid from 2014 to 2019.

When a small store gave me incorrect change, and was unpleasant about the correction of that error, I walked away and never came back. Anything else would have not been worth my time. Unless you want to turn this into a hobby, I suggest you take a similar approach. Whenever anyone asks me about that store, I tell them a similar story, and advise them to go to a different store. That alone cost the store far more than when they jacked from me on my change. It was the store owner that robbed me.

I think my big mistake was not having very short term subscriptions.

It is done...

[martiniturbide]

...I have already put AVAST just 1 star on Google Maps so nobody will buy their coffee again. https://www.google.com/maps/pl...

Re:It is done...

[martiniturbide]

Sorry if I was too aggressive. http://imgur.com/jSYUL30

Step1 NAME THEM

[Lumpy]

All of these people protecting these bad companies in these posts are insane.

Freaking Name the company you are having problems with. What the hell is wrong with people protecting companies that screw them?

Re:Step1 NAME THEM

[NotAPK]

It's fear.

They are worried the company will come down hard on them in some way.

Land of the free indeed...

Re:Step1 NAME THEM

[Anonymous Coward]

OP is in Europe, but don't let that stop you.

Full disclosure, I don't disagree with the gist of your comment, just the accuracy of your targeting.

Re:It's antivirus software, what do you expect?

[WolfgangVL]

3) not a single virus infection in over 20 years

ohh and if you want extra protection. Just set your firewall to block any outgoing unless you white list it.

The greatest trick the malware ever pulled was to make you believe it never existed.

By being reasonable

[linuxgurugamer]

I start by being reasonable. That includes giving them enough time and opportunities to understand the problem, and then work on a fix. I also don't expect commercial products to be compatible with beta releases. How in the world can they even provide support for something that is under development?

Re: Seriously?

[pegr]

Shhhh. He's going to post it on Twitter. ;p

Re: Seriously?

[Jack_the_Tripper]

Dude, bash on winders has been available to the unwashed masses for at least a week now. Beta or no beta every single piece of software better support it or they'll be hell to pay!

Here's how I handled a service problem with a VPN

[Streetlight]

In the US, millions, if not billions, of credit cards are being replaced with chips that have a new expiration date. This means one must contact auto pay creditors of the change. When this happened to me, all but one of my creditors had simple web pages to do that. The one was a VPN provider and I sent a message to their customer service asking how to make this simple change. The response was that I needed to cancel my account with them and start a new account because they could not change the expiration date. I then cancelled my service from them and have a new provider. I've also filled social media about this problem. They're begging me to come back with a big discount. Too bad, guys.

You have to ask?

[bhcompy]

Step 1: Stop giving money to them.
Step 2: Find a better vendor.
Step 3: No more headaches. Duh.

Be nice, switch vendors, publicity, lawyer.

[SeattleLawGuy]

1. Be nice to them. Occasionally this gets you better service.
2. Know what your agreement says. Insist on following it.
3. Plan to switch vendors. At least be ready to. If a problem repeats itself or a second one arises, pull the trigger.
4. Publicity. Parent is right; a lot of places will have issues on their public wall or twitter feed get elevated support. Many of these places will only pretend to elevate support in public and then will ignore you, but sometimes they actually follow through.
5. Call a lawyer. Even just a quick letter from a lawyer often makes a difference.

Small Claims Court

[sammy_cda]

Find out if the company has a registered agent in your state, and if so, sue them in Small Claims Court.

It is a known issue with AV software

[Ecuador]

This is a known issue and is being worked on by the actual Avast! support : https://forum.avast.com/index....
I don't know how the OP submitted the ticket, but it went to a "retention specialist" who probably thought he was trying to use it on Ubuntu (at least that's what I understand from the first email reply). And it is not just Avast!, see for example similar problems with Kaspersky: https://github.com/Microsoft/B... and more: https://github.com/Microsoft/B...

Re:It is a known issue with AV software

[Ash-Fox]

This is a known issue and is being worked on by the actual Avast! support

I learned about this after the whole ticketing non-sense sadly.

I don't know how the OP submitted the ticket, but it went to a "retention specialist" who probably thought he was trying to use it on Ubuntu (at least that's what I understand from the first email reply).

It was one of the options available to me through their support portal. I was pretty peeved to be handed off to a customer retention specialist who seemed to ignore key things I wrote in every e-mail:

- Repeatedly told them exactly what the product was
- Would have been happy if they could confirm the issue was going to be worked on in the future (it was, this person never checked)

Re:customer retention specialist != technical supp

[stephanruby]

Avast is known to be a company that commits fraud on a daily basis. His chances of getting a refund are about the same as getting a refund from the Nigerian prince.

That being said, the CEO of Avast does keep track of the press, so his chances of getting a refund now are pretty high simply because his story made the front page of Slashdot.

How to deal with unreasonable customers?

[mrprogrammerman]

Businesses are going to work on what makes sense financially. So what they will do is add you to a ticket. Then when they get enough incidents they will consider doing something about it. Your best bet is trying to get MS to do the legwork on fixing the issues. They might not be able to but they might at least be able to identify the incompatibility which would make it easier for the AV vendor to fix it.

As far as handling the refund I generally tend to rule in favor of the customer if I feel it's a reasonable request. I'd rather have a happy former customer who could eventually become one again in the future based on how well I treated him.

Re:How to deal with unreasonable customers?

[Ash-Fox]

My concern here was that I asked reasonably if I could get support, instead I get passed to a customer retention specialist who doesn't even want to retain a customer of over 10 years and doesn't even try to support me. There was no "I'll go check with the developers", there could be no misunderstanding when I have repeated exactly what the issue was repeatedly, I noted that I wouldn't be requesting a refund if they could check it was going to be resolved at some point in the future.

Guess what... The Avast forums have their developers posting on there and stating that they are working on a fix, but their own support doesn't even check.

This is really a case of terrible support and then a terrible refund methodology, especially where customer retention is involved.

Being cited the EULA "cannot" allow them to refund when the EULA does not state that they will not do something. Everyone expects EULAs to be overreaching for the company to protect it self, they don't expect the company to use it to screw over their paying customers.

What's worse is that this is from a vendor that is selling security solutions, this is a serious matter.

A question

[bagofbeans]

Do you think that the execs were appalled that you were treated that way (and so at least some correction may have happened) or they treated you as someone more tenacious than usual who needed to be satisfied fast? Third option: legal implications not from the company's behavio(u)r, but the execs ignoring the complaint/situation?

How do you deal withunreasonable companies?

[pokemon219]

Post embarrassing stuff about them online, like the fact that the business worlds chief management consulting firm runs their company on vanilla Windows, their expertise stored in PowerPoint files residing on a number of mapped drives shared to the desktop. The accounts running on an old VAX/VMS. The bulk of the work being carried out by unpaid interns fresh out of college, under the impression they'll one day become full partners. ref

Depends in your funds

[prefec2]

First of all collect the complete story. Then make it public. Name the company. And depending on your country get legal advice. In many cases US EULAs are not valid in the EU to their full extend, as we have other regulations and a lot of fraud protection. In case the support was the usual thing a customer expects, they would have to deliver that. As you are a little vague on the issue and company it is hard to give you definitive advice.

I just realized the REALLY interesting question.

[aix tom]

So far a lot of software has been able to claim somewhat confidentially "Compatible with windows 3.11 / 95 / 2000 / XP / 7" and so on.

But now Microsoft is adding new and completely unexpected new subsystems to their OS, without making that in any way "obvious" to the customer (and other software vendors) that there is a big change in the OS that might (and most definitely will) break existing software.

This basically means that most (if not all) third party Window software will become more of a "might or might not work this week" gamble to both the customer and the third party software vendor.

Re:If you paid with a credit card...you're in luck

[Ash-Fox]

Sadly I paid for the product back in 2014 up to 2019, under the assumption that if they had some significant issue supporting me, they could refund the remainder of a subscription if there were breaking issues if they showed me no sign of fixing in the future.

Re:Vote With Your Dollars

[Ash-Fox]

If a company won't offer the products or services you want, STOP GIVING THEM YOUR MONEY.

I guess my mistake was assuming the company would be reasonable if I paid from 2014 to 2019 up-front and along the way had breaking issues with the systems they officially support with no-end in sight for fixes. It's a large chunk of money.

two words: public shaming

[unami]

on social networks. works every time. and then shame them some more that you had to rant publicly because their officia customer support showed you the rhetorical middle finger.

Re:You're complaining to the wrong company

[Ash-Fox]

I did state I was happy to know if they were going to work on it in the future and wouldn't pursue a refund anymore; which guess what, they were according to the forums. But this support person didn't even check their internal staff or forums, nor did their supervisor right at the end.

Re:Non-issue?

[Ash-Fox]

Honestly, practically in each message, I declared what product it was, repeatedly. I even stated I would have been happy if they could confirm that it was going to be worked on in the future, which they never bothered to even check (before I posted the ticket, apparently their developers had posted to their forum saying they were working on it).

I paid a subscription up front front 2014 to 2019 (literally, hundreds of pounds), getting this kind of terrible paid support that can't even be arsed to read my tickets fully or even care about losing a customer of over 10 years is ridiculous. Then, trying to use the EULA to state they can't do refunds when it does not say that they cannot do refunds outside of the period suggested, treating the EULA as something to screw the customer over rather than just protecting themselves.

If I knew, I wouldn't have had to cut my card.

[sabbede]

My girlfriend is a realtor. She was advertising on Zillow. Every month, Zillow charges the wrong account, and charges the wrong amount. Every month, they say they'll fix it, but not only do they not fix it, they refuse to refund the excess charges. Yes, that's right, every month we say "We owe you $200, you took $400.", they say, "Sorry, we'll charge you $200 next month, but you can't have the excess $200 back. And we're going to charge you another $400 regardless."

Re:Simple solution

[Ambient Sheep]

Avira != Avast

Can I have a rifle?

[darktwains]

Can I have a rifle? I can fix this.