Tesla Unveils New Model S, Its Quickest Production Car (bloomberg.com)

Electric car maker Tesla said Tuesday that it is launching a 100-kilowatt-hour (kWh) battery for its Model S and Model X cars. A report on Bloomberg says: Tesla is adding versions of its Model S sedan and Model X sport utility vehicle with a more powerful battery pack that the company said makes the Model S the world's quickest production car and gives it range of 315 miles on a single charge. Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk is trying to appeal to sports car enthusiasts with the new Model S P100D with a 100 kilowatt-hour battery, which with Ludicrous mode can go from a standstill to 60 miles per hour in 2.5 seconds, compared with 2.8 seconds for the P90D Ludicrous version. The P100D Ludicrous upgrade costs $10,000 for customers who have ordered a P90D Ludicrous but haven't taken delivery, or $20,000 for owners who already have that vehicle type.

Comments

*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Ziktar]

While true that the P100D will be Tesla's quickest production car, the news is that it is *the* quickest production car that is currently made and available to purchase new. That one little word makes a difference.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Cederic]

That caveat also makes a difference. Two 2014 production cars were faster to 60, and I suspect there'll be a few that are rather faster around a track and significantly faster in a 2 hour race.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[HornWumpus]

Except it is not true.

We're building a list of quicker cars down thread.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[WheezyJoe]

True. From Digital Trends:

The automaker now bills the Model S as the quickest production car in the world, but there are a couples [sic] issues with that statement. Both the Ferrari LaFerrari and Porsche 918 Spyder are quicker off the line by one tenth of a second or so, which would make the Model S the third-fastest car in the world, not the first. Don’t worry though, Tesla has an explanation.

“Both the LaFerrari and the Porsche 918 Spyder were limited run, million-dollar vehicles and cannot be bought new,” the brand said. “While those cars are small two seaters with very little luggage space, the pure electric, all-wheel drive Model S P100D has four doors, seats up to 5 adults plus 2 children and has exceptional cargo capacity.”

Perhaps “quickest car in the world that can be purchased new in 2016” would be a better title, however that doesn’t exactly roll off the fingertips. At any rate, the Model S and Model X are now faster than almost anything on the road, and with its new power source, the Model S is the first production EV to cross the coveted 300-mile range mark.

Dubbed P100D, the electric powertrain [with the new, 100kWh battery pack] drops the Model S’ 0 to 60 time down to just 2.5 seconds, and total range has been increased from 294 miles to 315 miles. The Model X P100D sees similar improvements, as the heavier vehicle can now sprint to 60 mph in 2.9 ticks and drive for 289 miles without recharging.

Not bad. If you got the garage space and some change for a charging rig, they've got a superfast car you can use to take the kids to the pool... if you can stand telling them "no" a million times when they beg, beg, beg you to gun it in "ludicrous mode" off the traffic light (I said... DO NOT TOUCH!) and Tesla should definitely offer some super-secure teen-driver proofing so your kid with the freshly minted driver's license doesn't squish himself on a joy-ride whilst you and the missus are reconnecting on holiday.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[tholme]

...Tesla should definitely offer some super-secure teen-driver proofing so your kid with the freshly minted driver's license doesn't squish himself on a joy-ride whilst you and the missus are reconnecting on holiday.

They do. It's called valet mode: An in-depth look at ‘Valet Mode’ for the Tesla Model S

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[NatasRevol]

LOL, none of which are production cars.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL, none of which are production cars.

WRONG moron they are production cars.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[NatasRevol]

Which two *production* cars would those be?

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[NatasRevol]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

the limited production Ariel Atom 500 V8 with a 500 bhp (373 kW; 507 PS) V8 engine

Limited production is not a production car.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Cederic]

Hmm, one of them may be a 2015 car, depends how you count. But https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... is a good start point, learn to use Google or DuckDuckGo if you'd like other references.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[NatasRevol]

DERP

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[NatasRevol]

So bitter. Yet still no list of production cars.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[NatasRevol]

So, none that are currently in production. And were a very limited, hand built 'production' run.

As long as we're being clear, that's cool.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Anonymous Coward]

We're building a list of quicker cars down thread.

No, you're not. You're just trying your best to believe two cars no longer in production are somehow comparable.

Look, they may be fun to drive in your Latest Need for Speed MotorSport Auto Theft Position 24 but you couldn't get one built if you offered to front the costs.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's the problem, it's the fastest for some definitions of fastest, and only if you add enough caveats. Fastest accelerating, only if you count what's on sale this second, not whats soon to be on sale or what has recently been on sale. Fastest top speed, I couldn't find that for the P100D specifically, but seeing that all the previous ones topped out at 155 MPH, it's safe to assume this will be identical, so welcome to the same top speed as my VW GTI. Fact is it's not the quickest accelerating production car nor is it the highest top speed.

To the Tesla fanbois out there, it's this sort of hyperbole that makes all of us sane folks desperately wish we could punch you in the face. Quit it already.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Cederic]

Shrug. Any cunt can build a vehicle that goes fast in a straight line when the US government hands them $4.9billion.

Most have too much self respect to bleat on about it.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Anonymous Coward]

They are still production cars moron. You and musk are liars.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[NatasRevol]

Do you mean Chrysler?

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[NatasRevol]

If they're not IN production, then they're NOT production cars.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Anonymous Coward]

Ooooh, you're an _angry_ elf!

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Anonymous Coward]

You're like some silly little cunt who walks up to a guy who cured lung, pancreas, and all forms of blood and bone cancers and punches him in the face for not curing fucking spleen cancer.

Please, produce your list of better performing cars for under $150k. Please, produce the list of cars with the same or better in-car technology for daily driving. Please, produce the list that can go that fast in on trip, then drive 4 or 5 people comfortably back on the next trip.

You are an idiot, and should be embarrassed. I get that you have some bizarre pseudo-sexual hatred of Tesla. And Tesla isn't perfect, for one thing who the fuck can afford one? But to deny what they can do and their uniqueness as well as innovation just makes you look like an angry little twat.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, sorry, sorry, sorry. Did the OP claim "fastest for 100k"? No, it was "THE" fastest. Which it provably isn't. And I'm not wanting to punch the guy in the face who cured lung pancreas and all forms of blood and bone cancers. I'm wanting to punch the guy who points at the guy who did all that and says "he cured all cancers including spleen cancer". Basically I don't want to punch anybody at Tesla or Musk, I want to punch ass hats like you for making claims that are provably false.

And for the record, the Arial Atom is a production car that costs less then 150K that's faster. But since ass hats like yourself have already claimed it doesn't count because they don't produce enough of them (which by the way is rich with Teslas inability to meet their own manufacturing goals), I don't see the point.

You are an idiot and should be embarrassed. I get that you have some bizarre psudo-sexual love of Tesla. And refuse to hear that Tesla isn't perfect, for one thing why can't everybody afford one? But to claim they can do more than they can just makes you look like an angry little twat.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[NatasRevol]

It's the fastest car that wasn't a hand-built $800,000 individually tuned 'production' car. How anyone can call it a production car is laughable.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[LynnwoodRooster]

You need to learn what is a production vehicle. You're way off on this one. I guess because the P100D is not for sale yet, it's not a production car either, right?

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[LynnwoodRooster]

To 60, it's quick. In the 1/4 mile? The Nissan GT-R is quicker, and lower cost. If I want to get to 60 in a hurry, heck a GSXR-R1000 will do it faster, and cost about 1/10th the price as well.

Re: *The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[WindBourne]

Really? So gm, Ford, and Chrysler who got actual handouts are not able to even come close to Tesla, who borrowed money.

Re: *The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[WindBourne]

Nissan is not only lower cost, but much lower resale value. And once M3 hits the market, I would guess that Nissan resale will plummet.

Re: *The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[WindBourne]

P100d is actually in production. Has been for a bit. If you own a p90d, you can update your car via console ( and $10,000 ) and your car becomes p100d via software update.

Re: *The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[WindBourne]

Lol. We charge our Tesla via a simple 120v, 20 a plug. Works fine. And when Xcel stops screwing us over in Colorado, I will move 240v and charge at nighttime.

Re: *The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Anonymous Coward]

And that disqualifies it as a production car.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll be suing Tesla if some bozo accelerates that fast, loses control, and hits me.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Anonymous Coward]

The GT-R's cost is *that* much lower, perhaps 5-10% when both are fully tricked out. Anyone with that kind of money isn't going to make the decision on which to buy solely on cost.
Also, any Tesla is a pretty darn good daily driver and road trip car ( somewhat route-dependent but that's quickly becoming irrelevant).
In that respect the GT-R is nowhere near as good.

Wait-a-fucking-minute......did you seriously bring a *motorbike* into the discussion. That deserves a door prize.

Re: *The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[LynnwoodRooster]

Production car means a car in production or PREVIOUSLY in production. That is what a production car is. A car that was mass-produced by a manufacturer for general sale to the public (meaning it meets all rules and regulations of the highway). Just because you cannot buy a Ford Ranger anymore doesn't mean they are not production vehicles. Likewise a Tesla Roadster, which is also no longer produced. It was a production vehicle.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[LynnwoodRooster]

Unless you want to carve corners - then the GT-R stomps the Tesla. And it's a great car for two people to travel - I loved taking one with my friend (who owns it) from LA to Redwood City and back. Made the PCH a fabulous road to drive. If I want a sedate drive, I'll get something a touch more comfortable and "forgo" that fast 0-60 (I'd be content with sub-6 second 0-60 times, personally). And be able to take the roads less traveled; Route 36 in Northern California is awesome on any sporty vehicle (140+ miles of twisties), but be forewarned - no charging stations along that road!

Re: *The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[WheezyJoe]

Outstanding. My only thought is I wish they still made the roadster. There's a guy who parks one from time to time in front of where I work, and it always catches my eye cause of how good it looks. Tiny, as most roadsters are, but real good lookin'.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[thestuckmud]

And for the record, the Arial Atom is a production car that costs less then 150K that's faster. But since ass hats like yourself

Sorry, but saying "for the record" does not make it true. The Conditions of Sale for an Atom purchased from Sector111 (California dealer) include this: Ariel Atom 3s Are Not Considered To Be Federalized, Production Vehicles And Do Not Necessarily Meet Applicable FMVSS Criteria. Therefore, Ariel Atom 3s Are Not Available With 17-Digit VIN Or PIN Numbers.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[AaronW]

It's not Tesla's fault if a stupid driver loses control. While I haven't driven a car with ludicrous speed, my P85 handles acceleration quite well. The traction and stability control of my model S works extremely well. Any stupid driver can cause an accident and lose control.

My experience with my model S is that it is very forgiving despite having so much power and it's very good at maintaining control. It's certainly a hell of a lot better than the Prius I drove previously.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Anonymous Coward]

fastest != quickest

fastest = top speed
quickest = less amount of time to reach target X

basically, even quickest without the "X" is meaningless. but in the world of car, quickest always means 0-60mph.

Re: *The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Anonymous Coward]

Outstanding. My only thought is I wish they still made the roadster.

The only reason that they stopped is because Lotus, the company that they where buying the bodies for the Roadster from, redesigned the Elise, which would have required Tesla to redesign everything that they where doing to fit the new body kit. Most people forget that Tesla bought the bodies when they where just starting out, they didn't start designing their own complete vehicles till the S.

That said, I also hope that they bring it back in some way, but I know that it won't look anything like the original Lotus design.

Lotus itself makes street legal race cars, your luxuries are a seat and a steering wheel. The Lotus drivetrains are souped up Toyota parts.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Anonymous Coward]

Since Tesla hasn't published quarter mile times for the P100D I think it is premature for you to announce that the Nissan GT-R is quicker. it was pretty close between the P90D and the GTR and the P100D has a substantial HP increase.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Cederic]

Grumpy rather than angry :)

Re: *The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[WindBourne]

Roadster 3.0 will be back after model Y, which is expected in 2018/9. I would think 2020.

Re: *The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[tlhIngan]

Outstanding. My only thought is I wish they still made the roadster. There's a guy who parks one from time to time in front of where I work, and it always catches my eye cause of how good it looks. Tiny, as most roadsters are, but real good lookin'.

Roadster 3.0 will be back after model Y, which is expected in 2018/9. I would think 2020.

I don't think it would be as good looking. The original Tesla Roadster had a body made by Lotus (basically from the same molds) based on the Elise. Unfortunately, for some reason that relationship soured and Lotus won't be doing that anymore.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Dahamma]

Except this vehicle goes fast in a straight line, handles pretty well (not supercar well, but for 4 door? Definitely.) is ALL electric, seats 7, and is pretty close to being able to drive itself. And your numbers are off by 10x, it was $450M, not $4.9B. Due 2022, paid off in full in 2013.

I think they have earned the right to bleat on a bit.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[hackertourist]

The Atom V8 does not conform to US legislation, but it is road-legal in other countries. So it is a production car.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[michelcolman]

The only thing the tesla is fastest at is bursting into flames.

The two production cars faster than the P100D are:

- Ferrari Laferrari, of which 499 have been made. A quick Google search reveals at least two have caught fire, and a recall was issued by Ferrarri because of the fire risk.
- Porsche 918 Spyder, of which 918 have been made. A quick Google search reveals at least one burned down at a gas station in Canada.

Compare that to the almost 150,000 Teslas on the road today (100 times as many). Looks like "fastest car to catch fire" is no contest here.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[thegarbz]

I think Tesla is the only US based car company that didn't get a handout.

They did get a loan, and they did pay that back in full.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Gussington]

I used to have a GSXR1000. It was ridiculously quick, but from memory about 2.8secs, whereas the Tesla is reporting 2.5.
I'd still pick the bike though, lane splitting gives you an advantage no car can compete with. It's a common joke among riders when listening to car people talk about "sports cars". It's like two bums arguing over who stinks the least.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Anonymous Coward]

I personally consider all the subsidies to buyers a handout. It is government money that is directly benefiting Tesla. Nothing wrong with it, I don't blame Tesla at all for taking advantage of it (or for pushing for them in the legislature), it is just good business.

Just be careful climbing off your high horse.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if that is with production tires. I don't doubt it has the power, but getting the power to the ground is going to be tough without race tires.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Anonymous Coward]

You can have a look at this:
http://www.zeroto60times.com/fastest-cars-0-60-mph-times/

Obviously they are not all production cars, though a production car is any car that:
- Is unmodified from the OEM
- Tested with the delivered road tyres
- 25 or more are manufactured a year

The cars that are faster are pretty exotic, but the cars that are the same speed are less so.
They'll argue that the Caterham and Ariel atom 3.5R are limited production and hand built, but they qualify for production car times and does hand built really matter when they're less than half the price of the Tesla.

There's a couple of things to point out here:
1. No one has yet verified Tesla's claimed time.
2. There's a reason they're talking about the 0-60 time and not the quarter mile time. Significantly cheaper and faster (in terms of top speed, quarter mile and lap times) cars have slower 0-60 times due to traction issues. 0-60 is Tesla's one and only performance party trick, neat as it is.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Anonymous Coward]

Only if you stick to the manufacturer claims.
Both the Porsche 991 Turbo S and Lamborghini Huracán LP610-4 have independently tested 0-60 times that match the P100D claim, but are in production and available now.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[lazarus]

This (for me) is actually the issue. These cars are not actually that "fast" generally, they are only fast in a straight line. You don't see any Teslas at amateur (or professional) racing events because they overheat after just a few minutes of spirited driving. To get the range and acceleration you want requires so much weight for the battery that they don't corner very well.

What is the maximum Gs you can pull on a Tesla around a corner? Not too high, I would wager. But nobody talks about that.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Cederic]

"fastest to 60" is not top fucking speed.

If you're going to be pedantic at least be accurate.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Anonymous Coward]

To be picky, this is about the S, not the X, so it does not seat 7...

Re: *The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[WindBourne]

I agree that the others are production cars. Just that the P100D is also a production car. It has been produced for a short while now. You just have to pay to upgrade your vehicle.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Dahamma]

The S has a 3rd row seat option that seats 7. That's been true for over 3 years.

Re:*The* Quickest, Not *Its* Quickest

[Anonymous Coward]

"2. There's a reason they're talking about the 0-60 time and not the quarter mile time. Significantly cheaper and faster (in terms of top speed, quarter mile and lap times) cars have slower 0-60 times due to traction issues. 0-60 is Tesla's one and only performance party trick, neat as it is"

The refreshed Model S P90D Ludicrous is hitting 2.65s at 060 on stock 19" tires and 10.80 - 10.90 at the 1/4 mile. Those are darn good numbers for a sedan, into *recent* Nissan GTR territory. The "significantly cheaper" cars that are quicker to the 1/4 mile are typically 2-seaters and there are not many of those unmodified that can match a new top-end Tesla.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

The Tesla performance models have come a long way in a short time; the P85D had a 0-60 of ~3.2s, a 1/4 mile of 11.7s and needing about 28 secs for 0-150 mph - that last seems slow for a performance sedan but the latest models have cut that by over 20%.
It'll probably take better cooling & perhaps an additonal gear ratio to improve that much more.

http://insideevs.com/tesla-mod...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

How fast is the 0 to 88 MPH speed?

[Joe_Dragon]

How fast is the 0 to 88 MPH speed?

Re:How fast is the 0 to 88 MPH speed?

[idontgno]

One more bump in battery power and it won't need a Mr. Fusion or a lightning strike.

Re:How fast is the 0 to 88 MPH speed?

[MondoGordo]

Assuming acceleration is linear (and it generally is with EV's) 3.666 seconds to time travel speed.

Re:How fast is the 0 to 88 MPH speed?

[JackCorbae]

Where are my moderation points when I need them! :) Oh well, I'll just have to say "Funny" ... Funny. :)

Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

Porsche 918 Spyder is 0-60 in 2.3s. Elon has a ways to go still.

Re:Nah

[HornWumpus]

Same as the Atom 500. And they will both do it more than once per day.

Re:Nah

[b0bby]

But that's no longer in production. Are there any faster cars you can buy today?

The price on that Porsche ($850,000+) makes the Teslas seem positively sensible!

Re:Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

At $845,000 that was purely a limited-run gimmick, useless for anything other than dick-waving.

Re:Nah

[NatasRevol]

Not a production car.

I mean, shit, they produce 100 per YEAR.

Re:Nah

[vux984]

While the 918 Spyder is its own thing...even just relatively "regular" Porsches are pushing up against it...

The 2014 911 Turbo S did it in 2.6
The 2017 911 Turbo S is expected to do it in at least 2.5s if not faster; so even if can't buy one today, its not like its going to be long at all before a bevy of high end cars can do it.

And the tech in the 918 is going to be showing up all over the place within a year or 3.

Not to take anything away from the Tesla, any car that can do 0-60 in 2.5s is impressive in its own right; and it gets full credit for it's MASSIVE contribution to the electric car landscape. And although I really don't care for the Tesla itself; I am very much looking forward to the next decade; as Porsche and the rest start releasing more hybrids and full electrics; and the space fills up with options.

Re:Nah

[brec]

First para. of Tesla's blog entry of today with the announcement; emphasis added:

The Model S P100D with Ludicrous mode is the third fastest accelerating production car ever produced, with a 0-60 mph time of 2.5* seconds. However, both the LaFerrari and the Porsche 918 Spyder were limited run, million dollar vehicles and cannot be bought new. While those cars are small two seaters with very little luggage space, the pure electric, all-wheel drive Model S P100D has four doors, seats up to 5 adults plus 2 children and has exceptional cargo capacity.

Re:Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

Still a production car moron.

Re:Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

The only thing a tesla is good for is starting on fire.

Re:Nah

[NatasRevol]

You keep saying that as if you know better, but they keep calling it a *limited* production car.

Re:Nah

[catchblue22]

The Porsche 918 Spyder cannot be purchased new anymore. And I don't think you could call it a production car even when it was being made, as it was not made on a mass production line. There were only a relatively small number built.

Re:Nah

[catchblue22]

The Porsche 918 is not a production car. It is largely built by hand in very limited production runs. Here...watch a video of its production.

Re:Nah

[catchblue22]

Here is a google search for "car fires". Thousands of pictures of gasoline cars on fire. Here is another search for "Lamborghini Fires". There are many. How many recent Tesla fires can you mention? I'll bet is is approximately two. And yet they are reported ad nauseum. And filthy trolls like you act as if they happen all the time. They don't.

Re:Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

And by your moronically WRONG definition of a pruduction car, this tesla would also NOT be a production car.

Re:Nah

[NatasRevol]

LOL, Tesla is actually planning on a production line or two for it.

Not a few hundred, hand built 'production' cars.

Oh, and costs less than $500,000, unlike all the hand built labor of those other 'production' cars.

Re: Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

What part of the word 'production' do you not understand?

Re:Nah

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Porsche 918 Spyder is 0-60 in 2.3s. Elon has a ways to go still.

On the other hand, an electric motor can easily produce its maximum torque at stall.

An electric car, with adequately sized motors, controllers, and batteries (or other power sources) should be able to drive the tires to the traction limit from a standing start to the speed where the available power will no longer sustain that level of acceleration - well over 60 MPH. This means the acceleration is limited solely by the coefficient of friction of the tire/road contact surface - a critical parameter that can be tightly tracked, during acceleration, by drive electronics akin to non-skid brake controllers.

So an electric car should be able to get the best possible standing-start rating out of any given tire technology - and be literally unbeatable in such a contest.

IMHO the only reason (pre-Tesla) electric cars had a reputation for being underpowered creampuffs rather than unbeatable sprint sports cars, is that the automobile manufacturers thought the purchasers would all be eco-freaks, more interested in mileage and ideology than performance, and designed lower-manufacturing-cost, underpowered, cars for this market.

Re:Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

Tesla is actually planning on a production line or two for it.

So it's not a production car since you can't actually buy one.

The price of a car doesn't invalidate it as a production car moron.

Re:Nah

[NatasRevol]

The hand built labor that justifies the price does invalidate the fact that they're not production.

Oh, and you can buy a P100D now.

https://www.tesla.com/models/d...

Re:Nah

[viperidaenz]

Are you aware that the Porsche 918 Spyder has two electric motors? It's a plug-in hybrid.

Re:Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

CA DMV says it is a production car. Same as the Carrera GT. We even have to smog it like a production car.

Re: Nah

[WheezyJoe]

What part of the term "splitting hairs" do you not understand?
Christ, AC's, 2.5 seconds 0-60 in a street-legal sedan that seats five is fuck fucking fast. That's an acceleration of 24 mph per second or 1.09g's.
At a fraction of the cost of a Bugatti Veyron. Probably less for insurance, too. So what if some hand-made toy for sons of oil barons squeaks 0.1 second more? You have better odds of strapping a solid-rocket to your Chevy than driving, much less obtaining, one of these so-called supercars that look so pretty in the magazines.
So, give it up, a little. The Tesla, at least, is on the horizon of obtainable, if you sell your house, raid the retirement and the kid's college fund, or wholesale a couple of keys of... no, scratch that last one.

Re:Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

The hand built labor that justifies the price does invalidate the fact that they're not production.

100% Wrong Moron.

Re:Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

Exposing how tesla is lying.

Re:Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand, an electric motor can easily produce its maximum torque at stall.

Then drop off like a cliff.

Re:Nah

[NatasRevol]

It must make you so angry to realize how much more Musk has accomplished already compared to what you will ever be able to accomplish. He's become a billionaire three times over - paypal, tesla, spaceX - and driven those arenas far further forward than anyone else at the time.

And the most you're capable of is calling people moron on the internet.

Re:Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

limited *production* car

Re:Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

"an electric motor can easily produce its maximum torque at stall."

So does a turboshaft...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:Nah

[goose-incarnated]

You keep saying that as if you know better, but they keep calling it a *limited* production car.

A limited production car is a subset of all production cars. As far as classification goes, the term "production car" comes from the rules for various group autoracing - see this for overview - and each group has different rules for allowing cars. Some need production cars with at least 2500 produced per year while others allowed a mere 200/year production run[1].

The classification "production car" for all groups means "a car produced for sale to the public". No more, no less. Even a handcrafted Bentley is considered a production car.

[1] Thus resulting in such rare beauties like the Ferrari 288GTO.

Re:Nah

[LordHighExecutioner]

Elon can do better, with some help from above.

Re:Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

First para. of Tesla's blog entry of today with the announcement; emphasis added:

The Model S P100D with Ludicrous mode is the third fastest accelerating production car ever produced, with a 0-60 mph time of 2.5* seconds. However, both the LaFerrari and the Porsche 918 Spyder were limited run, million dollar vehicles and cannot be bought new. While those cars are small two seaters with very little luggage space, the pure electric, all-wheel drive Model S P100D has four doors, seats up to 5 adults plus 2 children and has exceptional cargo capacity.

And yet from Musk's own mouth:

hief Executive Officer Elon Musk is trying to appeal to sports car enthusiasts with the new Model S P100D

.

How is Elon Musk appealing to sports car enthusiasts with an expensive family sedan? I know many sports car enthusiasts, and you generally drive one for speed and rush, not to cause your children whiplash.

Re:Nah

[thegarbz]

The only thing a tesla is good for is starting on fire.

Holy crap! Last time I lit my car on fire it wouldn't start at all.
Tesla impresses me more every day.

Re:Nah

[cmseagle]

How is Elon Musk appealing to sports car enthusiasts with an expensive family sedan?

By making that family sedan go 0-60 in 2.5 seconds.

Re:Nah

[drinkypoo]

CA may treat it as a production car for the purposes of licensing, but if a normal asshole can't go down to a dealer with a fistful of cash and buy one then it's not one.

Re:Nah

[coofercat]

The wording on that was misleading enough I had to go check - the quote you made is indeed from official tesla.com blurb. I'm wondering how 5 adults and 2 children can fit in that car!? I mean, do the kids have to sit in the boot? When I was a kid we occasionally had to sit in the boot for a quick trip to the park with half a dozen of our friends, but these days I doubt it's even legal (and certainly not something claimed by the car manufacturers).

The pictures of the model S have two seats at the front. There aren't many pictures to go on, but I assume a three-person bench seat in the middle and luggage space at the back. I can see how 5 adults can get in there, but not sure about the kids. Anyone know?

I have to say though, a ~300 mile range is really pretty good - not far off our conventional car. Interesting stuff - now they just need to get the cost down and we'll buy one ;-)

Re:Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

"and it gets full credit for it's MASSIVE contribution "

And you get no credit for your contribution to the misuse of the apostrophe. It's means it is.

Re:Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

Kids do indeed sit in the boot. There are two jump seats in the back that are rear facing. They only have headroom for children to sit comfortably, or perhaps a small adult.

Re:Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

The model S has an option to have 2 legal seats in the trunk (I have a friend that has that option). If you search google or youtube you can find a number of pics / videos on it's operation. The seats fold down for when you want to use the trunk and in some ways they're closer to car seats then full actual seats (they have a minimum and maximum allowed weight and use a 5 point harness), but they are road legal and apparently the safest seats in the car (the 5-point harness and being rear-facing helps).

Re:Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

There is an option to have a two-kid-sized jumper seat installed in the back boot/trunk. When not it use, it folds into the floor. It has to be ordered when the car is ordered--that is, you can't upgrade to it after the car is built because it involves some structural change to the rear of the car.

Re:Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

But you're saying that the Tesla is slower right? Because I think that's what you're saying. In other news a school bus will carry seat more and carry more passengers than a tesla.

Re:Nah

[Ungrounded Lightning]

On the other hand, an electric motor can easily produce its maximum torque at stall.

Then drop off like a cliff.

Not necessarily. You're thinking of older, more basic, motor designs, connected directly to a supply (such as a series-wound motor), not a modern electrical machines with winding currents controlled by switching regulators.

Torque is proportional to the product of the stator and rotor magnetic fields, which in turn for wound magnets) are proportional to current.

In a simple motor the current is limited by the fixed voltage applied across the winding resistance, which drops as the machine speeds up due to back-EMF generated by the motor's motion.

In a switching regulator controlled winding the resistance is very low (to reduce I-squared-R losses) and the current is controlled by the switching regulator. The current at stall is potentially astronomical as a result, limited by the regulator's dwell time, not the raw supply voltage. As the motor speeds up the current (and thus the torque) can be maintained at a desired (and high) value despite the rising back-EMF, up to an RPM and back-EMF where the switch would have to be on full-time (or full half-cycle time for AC-excited windings) to push the desired current through the winding resistance.

Delta time

[DrYak]

It's a bit complicated.
Once it hits 88MPH, the clock sometimes measures as low as -60 years.
Once the clock was even show the lowest point of -70 years, but it was after getting hit by ligthning.

But mileage is shitty, it eats 1.21 jigowatts.

Inertial dampeners?

[Anonymous Coward]

With acceleration like that will the car come with inertial dampeners so the people inside don't get turned into a puree?

Re:Inertial dampeners?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not acceleration. THIS

http://www.designation-systems...

is acceleration.

Ludicrous

[markdavis]

>"The P100D Ludicrous upgrade costs $10,000 for customers who have ordered a P90D Ludicrous but haven't taken delivery, or $20,000 for owners who already have that vehicle type."

What is ludicrous is not just the speed, but the price! :)

Oh, and do note, in that mode your range will be ludicrously low...

Re:Ludicrous

[R3d M3rcury]

I gotta admit, I read the first sentence:

[...] a more powerful battery pack that the company said makes the Model S the world's quickest production car and gives it range of 315 miles on a single charge.

And my first thought was, "I think you meant 'OR'."

Re:Ludicrous

[markdavis]

>And my first thought was, "I think you meant 'OR'."

+1 Bingo :)

Re:Ludicrous

[kaybee]

Actually, the Tesla is very efficient. Accelerating to 100mph with Ludicrous mode doesn't take significantly more energy than without it. Now doing it, stopping, doing it again, again, again, etc, will start to burn the battery.

Ludicrous version?

[ilsaloving]

Why's it called the Ludicrous version? Does it go to plaid?

Re:Ludicrous version?

[Carnivore]

No, the Maximum Plaid mode is being planned for the future roadster model.

Re:Ludicrous version?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think Plaid is reserved for the new Tesla Roadster if they ever release it.

http://mashable.com/2015/07/17/new-tesla-roadster/#G3nHGA8sL8qU

Move, bitch. Get out the way.

[PopeRatzo]

Do you think I can get this "Ludacris" mode retrofitted onto my '95 Mazda Protege?

https://youtu.be/G9ITtVbx-c4

I'm not a Musk-car fan, but knowing it has a Ludacris mode makes me really want one.

 

i can jack off faster than that

[Anonymous Coward]

i like gambling dice in my anus

Re: i can jack off faster than that

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would mice gamble in your ass?

Viva Fracking

[Anonymous Coward]

Ultimately powered primarily by natural gas. Thank you fracking.

Alarming Battery Costs

[Luthair]

Oddly enough I was messaging a friend about the high cost of the battery upgrade for the old roadster model earlier today. Personally the extreme cost of the batteries (much higher than say a replacement engine) leaves me with big questions about how viable electric cars will be from a maintenance perspective.

Re:Alarming Battery Costs

[AmiMoJo]

The battery is good for 900,000 miles to 80% capacity remaining. Accelerated testing confirms it, as do drivers with 300k miles or more on their cars. It's basically 2x a typical petrol engine, similar to a diesel.

When it's end of life you can sell it for recycling into other applications like home UPS/solar storage.

Re:Alarming Battery Costs

[Thelasko]

Personally the extreme cost of the batteries (much higher than say a replacement engine) leaves me with big questions about how viable electric cars will be from a maintenance perspective.

They said the same thing about Prius batteries 15 years ago. Battery prices came down, and the batteries are very reliable. I still see some first generation Prii running around.

Re:Alarming Battery Costs

[Twinbee]

Here you go: http://cleantechnica.com/files/2015/05/image14-e1431849359184.jpg

Re:Alarming Battery Costs

[WCLPeter]

While on the surface that sounds like a lot of money, its important to remember that current model Teslas are premium products and are priced accordingly. More modest EVs, with their smaller packs, will be much more economical.

For example Chevy has said they've gotten the pack price for their upcoming Chevy Bolt down to around $145/kWh, since they're planning on a 60kWh pack that works out to about $8,700 for the pack - after "profits" they'll probably sell replacements for 10k. That sounds like quite a bit, but when you consider that the pack should provide a usable lifetime range between 6-8 years its not that bad.

* At 6 years that's about $1,666 annually, or $32/week.
* At 8 years that's about $1,250 annually, or $24/week.

Granted your experience will differ, for me its about $1 daily to fill up my 2015 Nissan Leaf since I don't drain the battery to empty. I'd expect a similar experience even if the pack size were larger than the current 24kWh pack I have. I've owned the Leaf two years now and I've spent perhaps, at most, $600 to fuel my car - or about $300 annually or $5.75 weekly. So using the examples above that takes the "fuel" costs up to:

* 6 years = $1,666 + $300 = $1,966 or $37.80/week
* 8 years = $1,250 + $300 = $1,550 or $29.80/week

When I drove gas I spent upward of $40/week, about $2,080 annually, in fuel. When I consider the maintenance I'm no longer doing - oil changes, spark plugs, various belts, transmission, etc... - along with the cheaper insurance, my rates actually went down and I'm now paying about $75 monthly on a brand new car!, it works out to be cheaper overall. All in, without digging out my old receipts and doing the math, I was easily at least $50-$60 weekly ($15k-$25k total over 6/8 years) keeping my gas car running.

However unlike a gas car which has these charges spread over the 6 to 8 years, making it easy to not notice them, when the time comes to replace the pack in an EV you pay it all out at once and this makes it looks like an expensive vehicle to maintain. Granted it is a lot of money to spend at one time on a car, but Total Cost of Ownership between EVs and Gas over time have no contest - EVs are far cheaper over the long term to maintain and run than a gas car. The biggest expense on EVs are tires, brakes, suspension, air conditioning, and the battery pack. Brakes seldom need to be replaced due to regenerative braking, tires are tires - everyone replaces those, and suspension and AC are just parts of the standard vehicle maintenance. But all the rest that comes with owning an ICE engine you just don't have that and you couldn't pay me to go back, I've got better things to spend my money on.

And this, of course, assumes that you're going to replace the pack after 6-8 years. If the degraded pack still meets your needs, you can continue to drive on it until it doesn't. Additionally the battery tech is getting better all the time, so as the technology improves replacements will get cheaper and existing packs in newer vehicles will maintain their usable life for longer periods - the TCO will just get lower.

Re:Alarming Battery Costs

[DirkDaring]

6-8 years battery replacement? Why would you replace a perfectly working battery with well over 80% of its charge left?

Re: Alarming Battery Costs

[Anonymous Coward]

The plural of Prius is not Prii, it's Prick!

Re:Alarming Battery Costs

[Gussington]

Some people pay $300 for a pair of jeans or $90 for a T shirt. Alarming yes, but not abnormal.

Re:Alarming Battery Costs

[fluffernutter]

Spark plug replacement? people still do that?

Re:Alarming Battery Costs

[b0bby]

I did it at 100k miles on my Honda, and I'll probably do it again at 200k.

Re:Alarming Battery Costs

[dyslexicbunny]

Being that Musk wants to get into that business for the home, couldn't they just set it up so you can replace your battery in your Tesla then have the old battery delivered and installed for a personal UPS/solar storage? I assume if you're wealthy enough to own a Tesla, you can probably afford this as well.

Re:Alarming Battery Costs

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally the extreme cost of the batteries (much higher than say a replacement engine) leaves me with big questions about how viable electric cars will be from a maintenance perspective.

They said the same thing about Prius batteries 15 years ago. Battery prices came down, and the batteries are very reliable. I still see some first generation Prii running around.

I have a first gen prius. 15 years old, with 228k miles on it, and the batteries are still fine.

If a snail were driving it fast.

[InterGuru]

Observers would say "Look at that S car go!'

Re:If a snail were driving it fast.

[Whibla]

Very few people know, but some years back I actually used to be a professional snail racer. I was very successful too, as my primary racing snail, Guinness, was so fast, by snail standards anyway, that for years he was unbeatable.

Unfortunately, like for all of us, age started catching up with him and he started slowing down. Not much at first, but, race after race, it became more and more noticeable. I must admit watching him get slower and slower was a thoroughly depressing experience and I tried everything to get him back on form: the finest fresh pea plants to munch on, fetching female snails waiting for him on the finish line, longer rest periods between races - but nothing seemed to work.

I had practically resigned myself to his eventual defeat when the idea hit me. It was obvious really. Look at any snail, what's the first thing you see? A huge great big heavy shell. Surely removing that burden would enable him to go so much quicker, quicker even than before, when he was in his prime. What could possibly go wrong? So, with all the delicacy and precision I could manage I took a surgical scalpel and carefully removed his shell.

Alas, once I'd done that, if anything, he just looked more sluggish...

Re:If a snail were driving it fast.

[Anonymous Coward]

Observers would say "Look at that S car go!'

Porkbellies?

Re:If a snail were driving it fast.

[ausekilis]

If there needed to be an excuse for a "groan" mod, parent would have won it for the year. 3 paragraph buildup to a dad-joke. I don't know if you should be proud or ashamed.

Batteries are expensive

[DrYak]

It's not abnormal
The battery, not the motor, is the most expensive part in an electric car.

There are electric car makers who sell you only an empty car, and rent you the battery.
e.g.: Renault's Zoé
These cars are rather cheap.
(And in case of the Zoé, Renault have stated that:
- they DON'T do remote kills, even if they technically own the battery
- in fact they don't do any DRM on the battery
- you could in theory stop paying the battery, bring it back, and refit the car with something else (yup, they are open to the idea of 3rd party battery market that is eventually going to appear as e-cars get more popular) )
(Disclaimer: there are Zoé in pool of cars at the local car-sharing company that I often drive).

To over-simplify to the point of carricature :

In a gaz-powered car:
- The motor is a horribly complex high-precision mechanical piece with thousands of precise components, gearbox and transmission system, etc...
- The tank is basically a huge jerrycan, with a simple cap at one end to top up, and a glorified faucet at the other end to bring fuel into the car.
(Yup I'm over simplifying but you got the picture).

In an electical car:
- The motor is basically just a huge coil almost directly connected to the wheel (well, not quite. There's a fixed ratio gearbox), and that's about it. It just spins faster or slower depending on needs, no complex transmission in play.
- The energy storage is an awfully complex beast: complex (and explosive) chemistry in the battery that requires either custom parts or in Tesla's case a complex grid of thousands of simple common off-the-shelf 18650 elements, with a very complex battery manager to charge and top up the energy storage while keeping the longevity of the battery, and a high power circuit to convert the battery output into what high AC current is precisely needed at the time by the motor.

So yeah, take the energy storage out of the equation, and the rest of the electric car is cheap.

Or in a different perspective: adding 10% more energy to the storage is a complex task, that is going to cost a lot if you pay the battery upfront (like in Teslas)
It's not like extending the range 10% in a gaz powered car (where it's basically about increasing the the "glorified jerrycan" about ~10%)
It's more like extending the power or efficiency of a gaz powered car (where it would need an entirely new and better mottor, which is also going to cost a lot).

Re:Batteries are expensive

[Anonymous Coward]

complex (and explosive) chemistry in the battery

Complex and explosive chemisty?

That's it, no more batteries for me.

I'll stick to safe and simple combustion.

Track?

[fluffernutter]

Do they perform well on a track? I used to be all about straight line speed but I've been watching Top Gear a lot recently.

Re:Track?

[Anonymous Coward]

Unlikely. Battery packs are still very heavy, and will likely remain so until someone manages to actually make a 12 kWh/kg Li-air battery, so it's a fair bet they won't be breaking any cornering records.

Re:Track?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not great.

Pros:
+ Untouchable holeshot (which is about the first 6 seconds of most races)

Cons:
- Heavy
- Not good on a skidpad
- Top speed limited to 155mph
- Short range (racing is much harder work than picking up groceries)
- Unable to sustain maximum output for more than a few minutes

It's that last point that really kills them on the track. Racing is murder on the batteries. These cars aren't designed to handle the thermal load from sustained high output antics. Run them hard and they cook after a couple of miles. Jalopnik took one to the 'Ring and it ran a 10 minute lap, 7 of which was in limp mode after the batteries were thoroughly heat soaked. That's about as fast as Sabine Schmitz was able to pedal a gutted Ford Transit round the place (courtesy of Top Gear). Even if they got it down to around the 8-9 minute mark, that's only as quick as a modern hot hatch, or a 20 year old Corvette.

The lesson is, whenever a manufacturer lays claim to having the "quickest" or "fastest" dinglehopper, you should always be asking yourself under what conditions?

Re: Track?

[WindBourne]

Love how our 85 handles the road. I have not taken it to a track, but on regular roads, this car tracks well and handles like a decent sports car.

Re: Track?

[WindBourne]

Actually, starting with the X, the S does not overheat anymore. Tesla did some great work on motor and battery cooling so that X could handle 5-7.5 tonne loads. Yes, it is rated for less, but the X can handle 7 tonne.

Re:Track?

[AaronW]

Actually the car does fairly well on a skidpad due to the CG being so low. The range of a gasoline car is also significantly lower on a track as well and a gas car doesn't have regenerative braking. As others have said, they've improved the thermal management in the newer cars.

Re:Track?

[fluffernutter]

Your last line is kind of what I was thinking. So the car is fast.. and if I had one I would probably tear it up all the time.. but if going fast is going to kill your battery before you are done with it then what's the point of going fast?

Re:Track?

[b0bby]

Probably not too well. I know a guy who can buy whatever car he wants, pretty much loaded. He just bought a BMW M2 because it's small and light and he loves the way it handles. He tried the Tesla and just found it too ponderous for his taste. It is a heavy family car, after all.

315 miles? Getting there!

[Anonymous Coward]

In my current car I can drive 400 miles, refuel it and be on the road again inside of 5 minutes. The day electric cars can match that will be the day I consider buying one.

Re:315 miles? Getting there!

[mythosaz]

Obviously electric vehicles (today) aren't a fit for everyone. ...but they are a great fit for most people. Range anxiety disappears after a couple weeks behind the wheel.

Re: 315 miles? Getting there!

[WindBourne]

Nah. Please skip buying EVs. Within 5 years, you will find it is slim pickings for new cars, BUT you will be able to buy used 2 y.o S class MB for 10-20,000.

Re: 315 miles? Getting there!

[drinkypoo]

Nah. Please skip buying EVs. Within 5 years, you will find it is slim pickings for new cars, BUT you will be able to buy used 2 y.o S class MB for 10-20,000.

Luxury cars are built for the first buyer. That 2 year old S-Class is going to cost you another 10-20k in repairs if you want everything on it to work. It's not just MB either. A guy on the QW D2 A8 forum says his wife's Q7 (IIRC) just literally blew up two of its four airbags because it got confused. He dad to have his wife bleed pressure from the other two at a fitting (!) just to get home.

Re: 315 miles? Getting there!

[WindBourne]

Nope.
What it amounts to, is that luxury sedans are going to take a HUGE dive in resale value when M3 hits the market.
Then when MY hits, I believe that even the luxury X-overs will have major resale value losses.
As that sinks into the wealthy, they will INSIST on buying only electric and only ones that are like Tesla.
They are not going to buy junk like I3.

Re: 315 miles? Getting there!

[drinkypoo]

Then when MY hits, I believe that even the luxury X-overs will have major resale value losses.

Luxury everything has major resale value losses. But they buy them anyway, because they don't want anything less.

Re: 315 miles? Getting there!

[WindBourne]

uh, I am guessing that you have never owned a luxury ANYTHING.
MB, Audi, BMW, Caddy, Lexus, etc all hold their resale value MUCH better than other cars.
That is why the wealthy buy them. What will drive them down in resale is if nobody wants to own an ICE vehicle anymore.

Re: 315 miles? Getting there!

[drinkypoo]

uh, I am guessing that you have never owned a luxury ANYTHING.

I own an A8. It's worth fuck all. It's only a D2, but even the D3s are starting to get cheap now.

That is why the wealthy buy them.

No. The wealthy buy them because they are better while they last. They don't give a fuck about resale value. They dump them while they're still young and fresh.

OK Slashdot, fix your fucking ads

[Anonymous Coward]

Today was the 2nd time in the last few days...I was browsing the comments on this story on my android phone, when my browser jumped automatically to a spammy "data:text/html;base64," url, and it wouldn't let me go back. The actual URL they sent me to is below. This is absolutely not tolerable. Fix your fucking advertisers!!!!!!!

Filter error: That's an awful long string of letters there.

OK, I can't post the damn url, because slashdot wont accept back the very URL they are feeding to me. Anyway suffice it to say it's a couple hundred bytes of base64 encoded data at in the URL.

built the scale version

[Anonymous Coward]

lol, very true.

I just added a Ludicrous mode to my mobility scooter last weekend. Was even going to call it that, but label too long :(

24v scooter now runs off of 60v and uses the little wheelie bars on it extensively :))

Mine is more like 0-6 mph in .25 seconds. Really it is probably close to that and top end of 20 mph or so in 1 sec

The 'hold my beer and watch this' mode is next but i doubt the motor will survive 72v for long.

If the full size car is half as much fun..... ;)

Yawn

[Anonymous Coward]

Wake me when the Tesla becomes an affordable car.

The latest Ferarri might do some amazing things, but until it's affordable, I really don't care.

It's like getting excited about the latest tech in super-yachts. Only the super-rich would even care. For everyone else, it's just a reminder that we're not the target audience.

Re:Yawn

[Applehu Akbar]

"Wake me when the Tesla becomes an affordable car.

"

Early adopters spend lots of money now, so that later you can spend a lot less for the same thing. It's been that way with all new tech.

Re:Yawn

[mspohr]

Go to sleep until next year when the Model 3 comes out.

Re:Yawn

[djinn6]

The Model 3 is still 2x the price of a new ICE car for getting from A to B, and 5x an old but usable car. If you're looking for affordable, you're in for a long wait.

Re:Yawn

[oic0]

Waiting might be the thing to do. Theres little in the lower traon to go wrong and the batteries last a long time. A used model with 200,000+ on it could still be a perfectly reliable commuter.

Re:Yawn

[oic0]

Arg, mobile. *power train

Re: Yawn

[WindBourne]

The model 3 is the same as the average price of a new car sold in America, and less than one sold in Europe.

Re:Yawn

[AmiMoJo]

It's interesting how the Model 3 is already screwing all the other EV manufacturers so badly, even though it isn't out for more than a year (and likely 2019 for general availability in the UK, first year's production is already sold).

Other manufacturers are struggling to catch up. For example, Nissan say they will start offering some kind of auto-pilot soon, but it will be single lane and limited to 30-60 MPH. Pretty useless really, can't operate in start-stop traffic or at motorway speeds. Nissan don't do software upgrades either, so the only way to get the next version due out a year later with two-lane support will be to buy a new car!

Then you have the supercharger network. Chances are Tesla will offer some kind of pay-as-you-go option for people who want to do occasional long trips without spending thousands up-front for lifetime access. Other manufacturers are relying on commercial charging networks, most of which are less than impressive. In the UK, for example, we have the Electric Highway but it's all 50kW chargers (Tesla's are 120+kW) and there are typically only two (!) at most sites. And one is often broken, and you need a stupid mobile app to use them.

The Model 3 is going to offer Ludicrous mode, and the base model is expected to be pretty quick. Most other manufacturers are still hovering around the 10 second 0-60 mark. Tiny little touch screens that never get updated, and small batteries.

People are thinking, do I really want a 3 year deal on a Leaf or i3 when the Model 3 or a used Model S will be available in the next year or two, especially when a used Leaf to tide me over is pretty cheap. Or just go back to ICE for a bit, because why buy a car that will be out of date almost immediately, never get updated and depreciate rapidly?

Awesome!

[viperidaenz]

A stupid-fast car that I can't take to the track without overheating the battery after one lap and replacing the tires after tearing them up trying to put a 2100kg car around a corner at speed.

Re:Awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a video on youtube of a model s taking off from a deadstop in the pouring rain like it was just shot out a canon. Try that in a ICE car.

Re: Awesome!

[WindBourne]

Actually, the battery no longer overheats. Issue was solved with the X.

Re: Awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't? Well, then this obviously didn't happen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8CgeT_qpB0

Any one else read the actual press release?

[fozzy1015]

I thought this was an odd statement:

"While the P100D Ludicrous is obviously an expensive vehicle, we want to emphasize that every sale helps pay for the smaller and much more affordable Tesla Model 3 that is in development. Without customers willing to buy the expensive Model S and X, we would be unable to fund the smaller, more affordable Model 3 development."

https://www.tesla.com/blog/new-tesla-model-s-now-quickest-production-car-world

Given Tesla's history of missed dates and missed production numbers, should we be concerned about the Model 3 viability and timeliness given this statement?

Re: Any one else read the actual press release?

[WindBourne]

Considering that 100,000 S and X have already been sold, and that demand is higher than what they can supply, I would say no.

Honest question

[fluffernutter]

How long will the battery last if a person does the 2.5 second acceleration at every stop light? Because in all honesty I would have trouble not doing that.

Yeah, but he got a rise out of you.

[Anonymous Coward]

Blah, blah, blah. Whine, whine, whine. Bitch and fucking moan. And filthy trolls like you act as if they happen all the time. They don't.

Yeah, it begs the question, "What is the point of trolling?"

Well, I would have to say the answer to that is to piss people off.

Looks like it worked.

I win.

You jest, but you're actually serious.

[DrYak]

Complex and explosive chemisty?

That's it, no more batteries for me.

I'll stick to safe and simple combustion.

I know you joke but:

- gaz (petrol) doesn't explode (unlike what Holywood has taught you), it just burns.
To make it explode you need the perfect mix of oxygen. Hence the complicated fine mechanical components in a internal combustion engine (pistons, manifolds, etc.)
Fun fact: you could in theory make anything that burns explode by making a correct mix with oxygen:
- a big block of wood just burns. Saw dust suspended in the air burns explosively
- grain might burn if dry enough. But you can actually make bombs out of flour suspended in the air
and the one that every chemistry and fireman know:
- gaz (methane/buthane) at the gaz burner just burns. (hence the name, duh). On the other hand, a roomful of gaz (gaz + air mix) + spark....

The reason why we use gaz (petrol) inside most cars is due to energy efficiency. But you could make explosion out of anything BUT NEED TO MIX AIR FOR IT TO WORK.

- On the other hand :
Lithium is highly reactive. (Well the whole point of a rechargeable battery's chemistry is to have a lot of electrons that you can easily move around [=easily make red-ox reactions]...)
It has a nasty tendency to explode (if you over-charge, if you undercharge too much before recharging, if you draw too much current, if you charge too much current, if you overheat, if you puncture, if.... well basically if you look at it the wrong way).

Luckily that's why nearly all modern lithium batteries have built-in electronics (a.k.a.: "battery manager") to control and protect them.
(That's what the third pad in addition to "+" and "-" on smartphone batteries is: it's a data channel to communicate with the built-in protection and get some extra informations, like temperature).

Well "nearly all"... /. and Youtube kindly remembers for you a certain batch of Sony laptop batteries with faulty built-in managers that had several laptops burst into flames.
Fast forward a few years later and we see again the same faulty batteries with the cheapest and shittiest "hover board" self-balancing boards out of China.

That's one of the major fallacies in Oatmeal's strip about his new Tesla car (but yeah he's a cartoonist, not a chemist):
the gaz in the tank of a ice-powered car is *theoretically* a lot less dangerous than the lithium in an electric car's humongous battery.
(there's no explosive liquid stored anywhere near the balls of an ICE driver. The electric-car driver is the one sitting above a big mass of lithium no matter how far away is the sun that was used to charge the battery).

Luckily in practice, Tesla isn't like the shady Chinese companies making craptastic batteries mentioned above.
They do the necessary design to make the battery secure and in *practice* their car aren't explosive (despite all the bad mouthing around the 2-3 fires reported).

But to go back to the subject of the discussion and my above post :
well that's why Tesla's 100kWh battery cost so much more. battery are expensive, because of all the above.
Want more gaz ? Just make a bigger jug to store the gaz. At worst, if its catch fire, it's going just to burn a little while longer. That's it.
Want more electricity ? be ready to pay a lot, battery are complex and you need complex electronics to regulate the electricity that goes in during charging or that goes out to power to motor, because if you don't you're in for quite some fireworks (see Sony laptop batteries and Chinese self-balancing board maker for what happens when you fail to do your homework).

So modern car batteries in practice aren't dangerous, but that comes at a price.

(That's also why I'm highly doubting about the Chinese car manufacturer mentioned here on /. that wanted to make electric cars for free/paid by the ads.
To make the batteries that cheap, some very dangerous compromises might have been made).