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One of Europe's Biggest Companies Loses 40 Million Euros In Online Scam (softpedia.com)

An anonymous reader writes from a report via Softpedia: Leoni AG, Europe's biggest manufacturer of wires and electrical cables and the fourth-largest vendor in the world, announced it lost 40 million euros ($44.6 million) following an online scam that tricked one of its financial officers into transferring funds to the wrong bank account. A subsequent investigation revealed that attackers had scouted the company's network and procedures, and identified a weak spot to attack. According to authorities, a young woman working as CFO at Leoni's Bistrita factory in Romania was the target of the scam, when she received an email spoofed to look like it came from one of the company's top German executives asking her to transfer funds to a bank account. According to unconfirmed information, the money stolen from Leoni's Bistrita branch ended up in bank accounts in the Czech Republic. The FBI says this type of attack is known as CEO fraud, whaling, or BEC (Business Email Compromise), and has defrauded companies around the world of over $3 billion since October 2013.

189 comments

  1. Encryption and Digital Signatures by The+Other+White+Meat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If they had used PKI Encryption and Digital Signatures, technology that has been available for DECADES, they could have authenticated that message properly and prevented spoofing. To be performing transfers based on unauthenticated email is absurd.

    --

    --- Generation X: The first generation to have SIG lines inferior to their parents... ---
    1. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      To put a woman in a position of authority is even more absurd.

    2. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Surely she should at least have called him on the phone to confirm the request?

    3. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was only $40m.

      Sure for a large transaction maybe, but $40m.

      Where do we draw the line? $10? $1,000? or $1b.. It's hard to know.

    4. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      You don't even need that, all you need to do is separately reverse the conversation to confirm.

      Get an e-mail from the CEO asking for X? Look the CEO's phone number up in your rolodex and CALL them to ask for confirmation that you should do X.

      This form of "authorization verification" has been around for hundreds of years, ever since someone could forge a letter.

      (Email equivalent is to compose-new-email and choose their e-mail from your enterpise contacts, NOT reply to the existing message.)

    5. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yet how many of us would set up PGP on our email? Encryption is either too f**ing complicated, or intentionally backdoored (I'm look at you Symantec/ BlueCoat).

      They sort of mash everything in: identity verification, privacy, revocation, kitchen sink, and in the process it all becomes so complicated that its never used.

      Can I suggest something simpler:

      Every email is sent with a public key.
      Alice email client stores and uses Bob's public key for that email address at the first time it spots it and for every time after.
      If Bobs public key changes, BIG WARNING FLAG, user has to confirm that this may be an attack, confirmation done adhoc.
      If Bob starts sending unencrypted emails, BIG WARNING FLAG

      No revoke, no ability to change the key associated with Bob's email address. If its Bob's it must be that public key, if it isn't BIG RED FLAG.

      Time is then the security, we trust that an attacker cannot go back in time and intercept the first email exchange and every subsequent exchange thereafter.

      Note that Alice is only as sure of Bob as the trust built up over time. Basically she trusts his email address because she's dealt with him for a long time, and since there is no revoke, she is sure its the same email address she's always been dealing with.

      If Bob's key was compromised, then his email is also... revoke isn't useful. He has to get a new email address.

      'revoke' is an attack vector. Since it permits key changes. As soon as you create an authority like Symantec, they will be the weak spot that starts issuing rogue certs (as their Thawte subsidiary did) or even assigning rights to make rogue certs on mass (as they did to BlueCoat).

    6. Re: Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Works with a single trusted chain of internal CAs only. As long as you add more than 1 trusted root- that is an issue

    7. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If every person that worked for me asked me to confirm every instruction I gave them, I'd fire them all inside of a week.

    8. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      Like CXX level managers are going to bother with that stuff. If everything isn't as dumbed down for them easy enough to be used by a toddler, its the IT manager's head that will roll.

      But if you know about computer security you already know this.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    9. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 2

      If they had used PKI Encryption and Digital Signatures, technology that has been available for DECADES, they could have authenticated that message properly and prevented spoofing. To be performing transfers based on unauthenticated email is absurd.

      Secure crypto tools are illegal to export overseas and there's a good chance they are running Windows. Open source tools don't suffer the same issue, but they do lack a huge amount of the business-specific features needed for an enterprise that large (not to suggest it's impossible, but it's practically impossible given the small number of people capable of operating an open source enterprise scale environment and the number of them needed to keep it running.)

    10. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I've set it up so the CxO staff used encryption and never knew what it was. Though it did get turned off eventually, as their friends didn't know what to do with all the stuff at the end. Seamless, since about 1998, if you know about this stuff.

    11. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Genuinely curious - have you heard of and/or used DKIM on your email? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    12. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Can you confirm you want to fire them all?

    13. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by tsotha · · Score: 1

      I would think the line would be drawn will below $40m. If it's enough money that a group of ten people would be willing to work full time for a year to set up a scam, it's worth a ten minute phone call.

    14. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Gussington · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I did a short term job on a business banking support desk about 15 years ago. Back then customers had an app to do their banking which had key mailed out separately to validate the account to the app. I had access to the app and the keys, so only need a valid username and password to impersonate a customer and execute a transaction. Being the old days when no-one knew about computers or security, people would often forget their passwords and ring up to get a new one, and the check for this was a fax of the user's signature against a record at the bank. Also having access to this the plan was simple:
      1. Setup a PC with the app
      2. Ring up the bank to impersonate a user. Send in a copy of a signature on file
      3. Receive password, and empty the account
      Bank transfers occur overnight and international takes two days. So if it was done before the afternoon cutoff, you could have the money out of the country within 36 hours. Some of our customers had hundreds of millions of dollars.
      The only thing stopping me was balls not made of steel. Looking back I should've done it. Even if caught I'd be out of jail by now :)

    15. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      But if you know about computer security you already know this.

      One of my colleagues, who does IT security work, told me that the biggest security threat is "the loose nut behind keyboard."

      I think that sums it up quite nicely.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    16. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by phorm · · Score: 1

      To transfer 40M without going through a chain of command/authorization is absurd, even with an authenticated email (after all, the boss could have had a machine stolen/hacked/etc).

    17. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good thing you're pretending to be an employer on /. when, in reality, you're a nobody in a cubicle.

    18. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't seem to be aware of modern email systems. Shit, you could work for the mismanaged company in the article. Read SPF, DKIM, and DMARC. It is transparent to the end user.

    19. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      $40m is different from $40M. 4 cents isn't a big deal.

    20. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by rednip · · Score: 1

      "Cubicle", god I wish I still had a cubicle. Us nobodies now sit at benches avoiding eye contact with a half a dozen people or more. I never thought that a six figure job would come with a 'move your feet, lose your seat' rule.

      --
      The force that blew the Big Bang continues to accelerate.
    21. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Hognoxious · · Score: 1, Troll

      Especially a gipsy one.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    22. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by jargonburn · · Score: 1

      Oddly, 40 Mega-dollars and 40 million-dollars works out the same!
      Goddamn Marketing, always ruining our maths ;-P

    23. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by dbIII · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The only thing stopping me was balls not made of steel

      I'd say you were also stopped by an upbringing that wasn't completely worthless and didn't turn you into a sociopath.

    24. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by davester666 · · Score: 1

      That would likely just be a minor speed bump for these guys. The exec would have the PKI signing keys on his laptop, desktop, phone, pad, any/all of which could be hacked to gain access to the key to generate a correctly signed request. Hell, he could be tricked into sending the phony request himself.

      This kind of think happens at all levels. A earlier method (likely still works) was to send phony invoices to Accounts Receivable, and just hope they send you a cheque.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    25. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What line? Use digitally signed mails everywhere and the line can as well be drawn at a single cent, it's not like there's any overhead involved.

      The first thing that happened when the first scam hit the papers was that we ensured everyone knows how to spot mails with bogus signatures (we have encrypted+signed mails as a standard for a few years now), that was basically all we had to do.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    26. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      "Are you questioning my orders? Are you trying to undermine my authority? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU???"

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    27. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Secure crypto tools are illegal to export overseas

      I think DeVry need to update their course materials.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    28. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Sure. With the lack of their next paycheck.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    29. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      That's why a good CEO knows what to hand over and to listen to what comes back. He doesn't need to know anything about "that computer stuff". What he needs is a CIO and a CISO who do, who tell him what is necessary and him to heed their advice, because that's why he pays those two (and it better be two) more than their staff combined.

      Of course, if you use the CISO position as a scapegoat ejector seat, that's of course also doable. It just might be more expensive.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    30. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 4, Informative

      "Call him? You really want to call the general to confirm these orders? At this late hour? Sure, go ahead. Here, use my phone, it's your neck". I thought that only worked in movies...

      But seriously, in a large company like that I wouldn't expect such large transactions (or even small ones) to happen without prior authorization in the ERP system. The finance guys won't transfer even a handful of euros without having the beneficiary in the system or if there is no PO and invoice, or transfer order (or whatever these things are called). Email by itself should not be considered sufficient authorization, ever, certainly not an email that also contains the request and bank details.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    31. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      At least say Germany, we're not all as insane as that country with its Wheelchair-Goebbels.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    32. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Day word, cottonmouth. Command word, trinity. Action word, Jericho.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    33. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      A earlier method (likely still works) was to send phony invoices to Accounts Receivable, and just hope they send you a cheque.

      Where did you get your MBA? I was thinking I might like to not enroll there.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    34. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      That only works if the person receiving the email knows to check it for authenticity.

    35. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by davester666 · · Score: 1

      AP knows who is supposed to be paid, AR has no idea...

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    36. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These are the amateur scammers picking the low hanging fruit. A friend of mine works at a place where the high level executives were targeted in a hack, their email taken over and filters installed on the servers that redirected select emails to a third party. So the hackers impersonated the executives, using their real email and told the economy department to make payments to a fictive company.

      Sure, if the email encryption used biometrics, additional passwords or something else that prevented someone else from signing your messages, but then it would be a hassle for most people to use encryption.

      Even though I am all for encryption/signing, it is not a silver bullet and will just move the problem somewhere down the chain.

      At the place I work, all payments must be cosigned by two persons in the economy department. Also, we have it easy since we have very few foreign payments so it is easy to keep track of those business contacts. The scammers WANT to send money to another country since it makes any police investigaton extremely much harder. We were in fact target of a whaling attempt a few weeks ago but caught on to it early and went to the police. After a week or two I got a notification that the matter had been dropped. One of the reasons cited was that it was too resource consuming to try to go after the only real lead, the bank account abroad.

    37. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      THIS is the reason to why this scam can work. You cannot conduct a business where everything is double-, triple- and quadrouple checked all the time. You will spend so much time and resources that other businesses run circles around you and you eventually go bankrupt. And this is what the scammers are counting on. That someone will trust the executives order and make the payment.

      So, there is a balance between doing what you have been assigned to and question it/requiring confirmation when needed. Unfortunately there is no single way to solve this all the time, since the scammers and criminals adapt too and choose another attack vector.

    38. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is of course how a well structured organization should work. The scammers rely on someone in economy getting fooled by the air of urgency in the email and trying to solve the situation in order to help the executive.

      The problem isnt a single email but the scammer having a short conversation with the target itself and convincing him/her that they are in fact talking to the person they are impersonating.

    39. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by houghi · · Score: 5, Informative

      Perhaps she did it a previous two time and the response was "I SEND YOU THE FUCKING EMAIL, NOW SEND ME THE FUCKING MONEY!" Yes, there are bosses like that.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    40. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by powro79 · · Score: 1

      Yes you would be out of jail now, but maybe without money, single, without friends or family, and without future prospects...

    41. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes you would be out of jail now, but maybe without money, single, without friends or family, and without future prospects...

      If he managed to get the money out of the country then he'd be out of jail, rich and probably wouldn't be single for too long.

    42. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by gsslay · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your company is just ripe for this kind of scam, then.

      This is why companies with any sense, and decent financial auditing, has a non-negotiable, set procedure for moving money around. Especially when dealing with large sums like 40 million Euro. All that tedious form filling, signing and authorising is not done just to give the admin staff additional work, and a sense of power. It's to prevent the company being scammed.

    43. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kim Dotcom never seems to want for hot female attention.

      I wonder what secret that fat fuck has ?....hmmmmmm.......

    44. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Kim Dotcom never seems to want for hot female attention.

      > I wonder what secret that fat fuck has ?....hmmmmmm.......

      His inner values? Or maybe he's a really good listener. ;-)

    45. Re: Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      burn haha

      I scrolled up to see if it was IFlyHelicopters talking about how he can't find smart employees for the incredible (yet unspecified) positions he has for "employees".

    46. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by bloodhawk · · Score: 1

      It really depends, if the scammers were smart and had well scouted the target perhaps this was a regular transaction size. People that do something on a regular basis can easily be tricked if you make your scam look just like a regular amount. 40 million may have raised less eyebrows than a much smaller amount. quite a few similar stories like this popping up in Australia at the moment of both government agencies and businesses falling for this. find a regular transaction and then fool the person that does the transaction into using a different bank account number.

    47. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Get an e-mail from the CEO asking for X? Look the CEO's phone number up in your rolodex and CALL them to ask for confirmation that you should do X.

      In an organisation big enough for $40m to be a normal sized transaction, you'll probably never even see the CEO, never mind get his direct phone number.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    48. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by mjwx · · Score: 1

      If they had used PKI Encryption and Digital Signatures, technology that has been available for DECADES, they could have authenticated that message properly and prevented spoofing. To be performing transfers based on unauthenticated email is absurd.

      If they had of used basic checks by other staff that has been around for MILLENNIA they could have prevented this. One person should not be able to sign off on 40 billion Euro.

      But its the same problem with PKI and mail. It would simply cost too much to implement, just as it would cost too much in extra staff to ensure that no-one makes mistakes.

      The weak link here isn't the technology, its the people. Its not an email that was tricked into transferring 40 million, it was a person. You cant fix people with technology. If email was secure work they'd move onto the next insecure method of communication and heck, there's plenty of those (Lync/IM, Yammer/Social Media). The problem is that to get a system of people that works costs more than to lose 10,000 Euro here and there.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    49. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So. exactly the same then...

    50. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      AP knows who is supposed to be paid, AR has no idea...

      Raising a cheque in AR would be much more unusual, so it would come under more scrutiny.

      Also, you wouldn't be sending them an invoice, it would be some sort of refund that would be tied to a sale, surely?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    51. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      It is not a silver bullet, but it would deflect the attacks to companies not implementing it. As you point out, criminals go for the low hanging fruit. If my revenue is the same whether I target easy prey or whether I have to overcome even a not too sophisticated security process, I go for the easy target.

      You don't have to run faster than the lion. Only faster than the slowest one in the herd.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    52. Re: Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh whatever. It only 40 million. Would you really go through that trouble?

    53. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And when organizations, primarily government, have those sorts of financial controls people call it "bureaucracy" and "red tape" and act frustrated that there are "hoops" to jump through "just to pay" a vendor.

    54. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're just used to working in government where, if nothing else, they know how to make sure money doesn't move unless it's supposed to.

    55. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Holi · · Score: 1

      Really? The only thing stopping you was your fear of going to jail? So you have no moral compass and you base all your moral decisions based on fear of punishment? You're religious aren't you? Most likely christian. They love that whole morality through fear thing.

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    56. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Holi · · Score: 1

      Ugh I should have previewed that.

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    57. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by imatter · · Score: 1

      This is exactly what I was thinking. This could be a lesson about not being a prick when accounting wants you to verify transactions or invoices.

    58. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if there is proof it was a scam, the banks are able to reverse those transactions, if they won't do that, they are in on it.

    59. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      PEBKAC will always be the biggest issue in IT.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    60. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who is Shirley?

    61. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      He can't hear you at the bottom of that hole he's digging.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    62. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Hey, it's not my cash. I'm just trying to spare YOU the cost of a scam, boss, you're welcome. But I can send large sums of money out freely next time anybody asks for it, without wasting any time checking with you. Would you prefer that?"

      If you get canned, at least you know you can hit them where it hurts, or forward the tip on to keep your hands a bit cleaner.

    63. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Careful when assuming religious motivations. I'd do a lot of things if there were no punishments, and I'm not religious.
      (that will trigger the typical "atheists have no morals" comments which is same stupid presumption)

      Rules and the punishments doled out for braking them are the de-motivator. That's it. The concept isn't exclusive to religions.

      If there were no consequences for killing or stealing, I'd kill everybody who pissed me off or seemed like a threat before they could kill me, and take everything that I wanted. It would be an even MORE fearful life though, because I'd be at risk of the same things whether I did any of that or not.

      I fear punishment LESS than I fear people free from it, because I can control my own actions and avoid bringing punishment upon myself.

    64. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only thing stopping me was balls not made of steel

      didn't turn you into a sociopath.

      The absolute pansy.

    65. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >I wouldn't expect such large transactions (or even small ones) to happen without prior authorization
      >Email by itself should not be considered sufficient authorization

      Yes, but you are an experienced/wise person. These these thieves scouted around and found a numbnut who they could trick. Some people just flat out are unfamiliar with standard operating procedures, chains of command, due diligence, etc. They are weak enough to just 'do stuff'.

      *unless she's in on the scam of course...

    66. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Look the CEO's phone number up in your rolodex and CALL them to ask for confirmation that you should do X.

      Confirmation is the wisdom of the diligent. If she's a weak-link & persuadable personality, well that's where the crooks have all the advantage.

    67. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Perky_Goth · · Score: 1

      Sociopaths are born that way, what they don't have to be is a psychopath. I don't trust sociopaths, but they're not all evil.
      If he was a psychopath, he would probably be involved in managing the bank; those people are usually the ones who steal from the bank.

    68. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Gussington · · Score: 1

      I might have money depending on how quickly the response was, and depending on that would dictate my relationship status. I'd still have friends, they just might have less teeth and more tattoos, and I'd still have family. So it was pretty close to being a worthwhile exercise.

    69. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Gussington · · Score: 1

      Really? The only thing stopping you was your fear of going to jail?

      In this case yes.

      So you have no moral compass and you base all your moral decisions based on fear of punishment?

      No, and that is a bit of stretch of logic. But some decisions are, and that's the thing with complex things like morality, they can't be summarised easily in single catchy sentences.

      You're religious aren't you? Most likely christian. They love that whole morality through fear thing.

      I'm sure they do, but I think you've gone off half-cocked here. The first thing you learn in high school ethics is the starving man stealing a loaf of bread example. There are infinite shades of grey with morality, don't make the mistake that religious people do and paint everything black and white.

    70. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I have had that kind of boss, they don't care. They also think that this cannot happen to them. They are really like that, the hubris is strong in that ones. They genuinely think that they know better than you and you trying to inform them of a danger only means you're trying to weasel out of work.

      That doesn't mean they won't explode in your face when (not if) the shit hits the fan and blame you for not telling them in advance. You knew it all along, you're that computer guy and you MUST have known (if you're not even with of the attackers). And no, having told him doesn't mean you don't get yelled at, it is EXACTLY the reason you DO get yelled at because now he has PROOF you knew.

      And no, he doesn't learn from the experience that he should heed your advice.

      Yes, such people exist. And sadly they wrestle their way into management because their brash display of ignorance is seen as "decisiveness".

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    71. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One person should not be able to sign off on 40 billion Euro.

      Most companies understand that emergencies happen and there needs to be someone who can cut a check at a moment's notice. Typically, that is only one or two people and they are supposed to be highly cautious when doing so. The same way any critical system tends to have at least one person with god powers to fix it when it goes down, no matter what needs to be done.

    72. Re:Encryption and Digital Signatures by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

      Maybe she did. The number at the bottom of the e-mail in the signature block. You know

      Hugh Mongous
      123 Main St.
      Stuttgard Germany
      0+123-111-1111

      Hi, Mr. Mongous, did you send me an invoice for 40 million?
      Ja! Sure did. Send it right away! I'm a bit short this month.

    73. Re: Encryption and Digital Signatures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CFO is 1St level management in an organization. She reports to CEO of that organization.
      Even if she was managing a subsidiary, she would have known the global CEO. It's basic.

  2. IT Contractors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    All those contractors you outsourced to are selling your internal procedures for scams like this.

    1. Re:IT Contractors by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      Not just contractors - entire companies are in on that sort of scam in india. In the UK the government and various companies think nothing of sending our private data to the cheapest bidder in Bangalore, then react with shock and horror when - surprise! - some of the data goes walkies. I honestly wonder sometimes if there's a maximum IQ allowed for CEOs and ministers because surely people can't honestly be this stupid they didn't forsee this sort of thing?

  3. So in the Swot analysis, .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Was the money saved in outsourcing greater than the money lost by this scam?? If so keep outsourcing to cheaper labor,,,, and flimsier security.

    1. Re:So in the Swot analysis, .... by nukenerd · · Score: 1

      FTFA:

      a young woman working as CFO at Leoni's Bistrita factory in Romania

      I didn't bother to read any further than the word "Romania".

  4. Aren't transactions like this tracked? by caseih · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Are not transactions like this tracked along the way and why can't the banks just reverse all the transactions?

    1. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The money lost to the scammers is no longer "there", i.e. in the banking network. At least not in a form that can be subjected to transaction reversal. By reversing the transactions the banks will be defaulting on the debts owned to each other. In the end one or some of the banks must absorb the loss.

    2. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by ErichTheRed · · Score: 1

      Being an American, and therefore used to our banking system, this was always something I was wondering about with wire transfers. Apparently, they are instant and basically the same thing as handing a bag of cash to the recipient. Once the recipient takes the cash, it's irrevocable - they would have to agree to give you your bag back if you wanted the money. Same thing goes for these bank transfers - anyone with the authority over the company's bank accounts is a target for scams like these. We 'Muricans are used to ACH transactions taking 2-3 business days and having the ability to stop payment on them the same way we would a check. Wire transfers to us are basically Swiss bank account territory; only people who have a good reason to use them do so.

    3. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by BringsApples · · Score: 1

      My thoughts exactly. I've been able to get my bank to refund as little as $200 before due to identity theft using my debit card, and that was when an item was purchased, so someone had to actually eat the charges. In this case, it seems like they see where the money went. Maybe since it has to do with international borders, it'll just take a little more time.

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    4. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by AK+Marc · · Score: 2, Informative

      In the US, the consumer protections are almost non existent. Fraud is often legal, under the banner "caveot emptor". Most of the world isn't the same. Here, if someone sends you $1,000,000 by accident, the bank will reverse it, and if you spent it, that's theft. Everyone uses bank transfers for everything. Nobody writes checks, and most stores won't take them.

    5. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 1

      I guess the banks figure "why should we?"

      It's not their fault the money has been transferred fraudulently, they have no responsibility and by not getting involved they avoid possible legal liabilities.

      However, you'd think that the police/interpol could track the movement of the money -- after all, it's not like someone is going to rock up to an ATM and withdraw 40 million Euros in cash, is it?

    6. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by whoever57 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Apparently, they are instant and basically the same thing as handing a bag of cash to the recipient

      What, you mean that the money doesn't flow, a few dollars at a time, from one account to the other, with a progress bar to show how much has transferred, like Hollywood has shown me in countless movies and TV shows?

      I'm shocked! </sarcasm>

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    7. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wire transfers are still used for huge sums but only between establish node and entities. US banks use them everyday to balance out at the end of the day, but that is a VERY limited audience on a very closed network. A wire transfer is just like handing off a bag of cash to a numbers runner.

    8. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by whoever57 · · Score: 2

      My thoughts exactly. I've been able to get my bank to refund as little as $200 before due to identity theft using my debit card, and that was when an item was purchased, so someone had to actually eat the charges. In this case, it seems like they see where the money went.

      There was no recovery of your money. Someone ate the cost of the loss: either your bank or the merchant.

      Maybe since it has to do with international borders, it'll just take a little more time.

      No, it's gone. The money will have flowed through a jurisdiction where the banks will not cooperate in recovery.

      On a smaller scale, a similar scam is happening with house purchases in the UK (and perhaps elsewhere)

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    9. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by BringsApples · · Score: 1

      There was no recovery of your money. Someone ate the cost of the loss: either your bank or the merchant.

      It sounds like you've never had money stolen from a bank account via a debit card, and I hope you never have to go through that. But I can tell you it's a pain in the ass. Due to that situation, where I did very much get my money back, I never use a debit card, only a credit card.

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    10. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      Likewise, I don't use a debit card, except as a last resort. Instead, I use a credit card. My card has seen fraudulent transactions as high as $3000. In every case, because of the legal protections provided to credit card holders, these fraudulent transactions did not cost me anything.

      But my point was that, in your case, the thieves probably got away with the money. The transactions were not reversed all the way through the chain to the thieves' bank account.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    11. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 2

      It sounds like you've never had money stolen from a bank account via a debit card, and I hope you never have to go through that. But I can tell you it's a pain in the ass. Due to that situation, where I did very much get my money back, I never use a debit card, only a credit card.

      You aren't listening... The bank didn't get your money back, the bank gave you some of its own money...

    12. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can see why it wouldn't be practical to allow claw-backs. OTOH, the money didn't just disappear. There has to be a trail. Even if they drained the accounts by having their minions withdraw cash from ATMs, those minions have faces that will appear to the cameras at the ATMs. Then they can pull these guys into jail and get information out of them that could lead to the boss, or check for commonality among them to see who might have met with them. Maybe it wasn't as cheesy as a bunch of ATM withdrawals. Maybe they bought gold bars. There's still going to be a record--transferred the money to a gold dealer. Subpoena the dealer. If they don't cooperate, revoke their banking privleges. Etc, etc...

    13. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Gussington · · Score: 1

      You didn't get your money back, you got the credit card companies money of equivalent value and they wore it.
      The thief got your money and spent it on good times.

    14. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by istartedi · · Score: 1

      It's more like an insurance payout. All those pesky merchant fees make a tidy profit for the bank, certainly; but they also fund theft insurance. I don't know how this works with any of the new "fintech" out there. I have a feeling it doesn't. Users of fancy new mobile currencies, beware.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    15. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Gussington · · Score: 1

      A bank transfer is a contract. You as the owner of the money agree to give it to someone else. Once that is agreed and transferred, you cannot just take it back.
      If you got tricked or scammed into transferring the money, the receiving banking doesn't care about your stupidity. You are effectively asking them to take money out of their customers account with no authority (only the court can do this).
      Most Banking systems are run on batch jobs which run overnight domestically or maybe 2 days for international, not real time. This is the same all over the world (mostly).

    16. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A friend of mine works in bank fraud detection and people are creative.
      - they hire smurfs to go to the ATMs
      - invest in stocks, transfer the portfolio
      - use a tree of accounts
      - use accounts in jurisdictions with stricter bank privacy
      - buy bitcoin
      - buy luxury goods
      - ...
      The trick is to buy enough time to disappear.

    17. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Gussington · · Score: 1

      Once the recipient takes the cash, it's irrevocable - they would have to agree to give you your bag back if you wanted the money. Same thing goes for these bank transfers - anyone with the authority over the company's bank accounts is a target for scams like these.

      This is the same everywhere. And it's like that because how else would any banking system work effectively?
      At some point you have to agree to execute a transaction, and you have to trust that the person with the money is responsible with the authority they possess. As a receiver I have to expect certainty over that transaction so I can operate efficiently. Any other system introduces complexity, cost and inefficiencies, and doesn't necessarily solve the initial problem

    18. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      Nope, I'm reading.

      The irony is that for all the nonsense you just typed, you STILL aren't reading, because you didn't bother to understand the OP you replied to, and no, you didn't get YOUR money back, you got someone else's money back.

      But go on being an idiot, the world is full of them...

    19. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by BringsApples · · Score: 1

      Right, I understand your point, and agree. I was just pointing out that, if my bank cared about my $200, where my balance back then was anywhere between $300 and $700, then surely a client that has a balance above $40,000,000 would have some pull to get the bank to find out where it went and how to get it back.

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    20. Re: Aren't transactions like this tracked? by orlanz · · Score: 1

      What are you taking about? There are plenty of consumer protection laws. For less than $20k most financially responsible people can get credit for 45 days with no interest.

      We use ACH for almost everything and as long as the money isn't withdrawn, it is reversible. And you can't just send people ACH anytime. You have to first set up a trust with both accounts that both sides validate.

      Granted if you send someone 10k instead of 1k, a normal person can't reverse it without the other party. Only other recourse is small claims or court. But your company and other institutions can. This isn't a limit of ACH, but a control by the banks to prevent fraud.

    21. Re: Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fuck are you talking about, you stupid shit? Of course there are consumer protection laws, including fraud. You're a massive fucking moron.

      It's almost impossible to be the victim of fraud and not have any recourse in America. You'd literally need to hand a random person cash without knowing who they are.

      You should really just shut the fuck up when you have no idea what you're talking about.

    22. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "caveot emptor"

      You're a real genius, aren't you?

    23. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Are not transactions like this tracked along the way and why can't the banks just reverse all the transactions?"

      Probably because you'd need both banks to agree to the reversal. There's probably a reason why criminals choose these particular countries banks to stash their shit.

    24. Re: Aren't transactions like this tracked? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Granted if you send someone 10k instead of 1k, a normal person can't reverse it without the other party.

      Right. Your $9,000 is gone. And you have to sue to get it back. Most of the rest of the world would prosecute the receiver's refusal to return what isn't theres as fraud or theft. So you just give back that which isn't yours. Unless you are in the US.

      What are you taking about? There are plenty of consumer protection laws.

      Great, so if you buy a car off Craigslist, and turns out the car was a lemon and the seller knew and didn't disclose, do you have any option other than sue? No? Then there are no consumer protection laws. P.S. You'll lose the lawsuit, after spending more than the car was worth pursuing it. Most of the rest of the world, the fraud by the seller would be proseuted as such, so you wouldn't have to sue, and the burden of prosecution is born by the state, not the little guy.

      that there exist "some" consumer protection laws doesn't mean they are anything like anywhere else in the world.

      As for ACH having to be set up, to send someone money, it's as easy as trading bank account numbers, and sending it. Transfers are live, same bank, or next day for other bank. And 100% safe. Faster and cheaper than ACH or a "wire transfer". You can pay bills, people, and such like that. Much better than the US system. But the US hates progress. That means they weren't perfect yesterday.

    25. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Small nitpick here.

      The tradition of using the word smurf as a method to remain incognito comes from "e-sports" where known players would play under a different pseudonym than the one they usually are known by.
      The case it was popularized from was when a known player used the pseudonym "smurf" instead of his regular one.

      You can hire someone to go to the ATM, but it wouldn't be called a smurf. A smurf would be if the Nigerian prince would start to refer to himself as a Russian businessman to make sure that people who are familiar with the Nigerian letters wouldn't catch on as fast.

    26. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by powro79 · · Score: 1

      If you think about the identity theft, what it the bank's fault somehow? For example, did someone impersonate your signature and the bank processed the transaction? In that case the bank would probably reimburse you. In another case - for example a virus on your computer - the bank would try to recover the money for you, but they would probably not reimburse you.

    27. Re: Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      Just a minor point, but most consumer protection laws dont cover private transactions between individuals - they would only apply if the person you bought off of on your equivalent of Craigslist was a business and was selling as a business.

    28. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Crazy money transfer within a country should take 3 days. In India we now have instantaneous (5 min max) money transfer facility to transfer money to any one in any bank within the country for almost free called RTGS. We are about the get UPI (Unified Payment Interface) shortly that will allow us to associate our bank account with ID's like email, phone no etc and any one in the country can pay you using this simple ID..

    29. Re: Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting that parent was downmodded, even though it is more or less true. Credit cards use an inherently unsafe system secured only by the knowledge of a few numbers, whereas debit card transactions (EFTPOS) always require authorisation by the bank, entry of a PIN code that is verified remotely and nowadays almost always use a chip on the card (EMV). Moreover, a credit card charge is limited only by the maximum credit the card was issued for, while a debit card transaction is limited by the account balance.

      The only thing that makes credit cards 'safe enough' to use for the general public is the fact that the issuing banks, the credit card company and merchants take up all of the risk and perform some automatised sanity checks to block cards after suspicious activity, but that comes at the cost of hefty (2-3%) fees for the merchant, which are sometimes passed on to the customer and are the reason why credit cards are rarely accepted in shops that operate on low margins (e.g. supermarkets and electronics shops) or tend to bill large amounts at once (e.g. car dealerships).

    30. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      In Europe it depends on who you are and how much is involved. For individuals with relatively small amounts they will often just reverse the transaction if you have prove that they were at fault somehow. If you were scammed though they might refuse or at most try to recover as much money from the destination account as they can. Since it will likely have been drained that will be â0.

      Generally speaking when someone steals money the victim gets back what is left only. If they spend half of it, that money is gone and at most they can try to recover it by asking the court to sell off the stuff that was bought with it.

      For businesses there are less protections, and they usually insure themselves.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    31. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Are not transactions like this tracked along the way and why can't the banks just reverse all the transactions?

      Well two reasons.

      Usually by the time that they've figured out that they've been had, the crims have had plenty of time to move the money through fronts, foreign banks and what not to be able to do anything about. Any trace on the money has been lost.

      The second reasons is because the banking system would collapse.

      Much like certificate authorities in PKI, banks are trustworthy sources. So the entire banking system relies on banks paying their debts. If a bank renegs on what it has agreed to pay after the fact, they become a non-trustworthy source. Other banks and financial institutions will stop accepting payments from that bank. Once people realise that banks cannot be held to their debts, they will stop using it. To reverse a transaction you require the co-operation of all parties involved. A bank transfer is final, apart from a few checks by law enforcement to make sure you're not laundering money, evading tax or funding terrorism once you transfer the money it cant be stopped.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    32. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Small nitpick here.

      The tradition of using the word smurf as a method to remain incognito comes from "e-sports" where known players would play under a different pseudonym than the one they usually are known by. The case it was popularized from was when a known player used the pseudonym "smurf" instead of his regular one.

      You can hire someone to go to the ATM, but it wouldn't be called a smurf. A smurf would be if the Nigerian prince would start to refer to himself as a Russian businessman to make sure that people who are familiar with the Nigerian letters wouldn't catch on as fast.

      I thought he just meant you got someone to dress in a smurf costume to use the ATM so it would be harder to identify them on CCTV.

      Clearly, I know nothing about "e-sports".

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    33. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by BringsApples · · Score: 1

      I'm just looking at the situation from the standpoint of my life. You're looking at it from the world-view. We're both correct in our reasoning.

      But did you really have to sink to name-calling? I thought you were better than that.

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    34. Re: Aren't transactions like this tracked? by orlanz · · Score: 1

      No most of the world does not have the state prosecute as theft. Maybe in the EU but not else where*. It normally isn't considered a crime for mistakes between private parties. It would be considered a civil matter here.

      As for Fraud, you are stepping into a whole new area of legal space. Yes, we all pretty much have the same laws. It is a state crime, not civil.

      As for the rest of your post, we have the same, if not better laws in the US if the other side is a business. Even on Craigslist, if that person sells more than X (10?) cars a year, he is considered a business. He can't fraud people and must pay taxes on profits etc.

      *= On that point why are we wasting other people's monies (taxes) prosecuting on behalf of financial mistakes of an individual?

    35. Re: Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Ambient+Sheep · · Score: 1

      Debit cards are a million times safer than credit cards.

      Interesting that parent was downmodded, even though it is more or less true. Credit cards use an inherently unsafe system secured only by the knowledge of a few numbers, whereas debit card transactions (EFTPOS) always require authorisation by the bank, entry of a PIN code that is verified remotely and nowadays almost always use a chip on the card (EMV). Moreover, a credit card charge is limited only by the maximum credit the card was issued for, while a debit card transaction is limited by the account balance.

      Maybe where you're from, but here in the UK both my credit cards (along with both my debit cards) have chip and PIN which are verified online. It's standard here; there's no difference between the two.

      Furthermore, under UK consumer credit law, if you buy something that's worth more than £100 using a credit card (even if you only pay 1p of that amount on the credit card), the credit card company becomes jointly liable with the supplier if something goes wrong; this can be invaluable if, for example, you buy flights or a new kitchen from a company that subsequently goes bust. (See here for examples.) UK debit cards DO NOT have this legal protection. Also, in the case of a fradulent transaction, I'd far rather it was taken from my credit card (where I can pay off the minimum and argue the fraud later), then clearing out my main bank account via my debit card. These reasons may be why the grandparent was modded down.

    36. Re: Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lol! You sir are a wonderful troll!

    37. Re: Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That may be true when you pay with your card in a shop, but a credit card also allows initiating a payment using only the card number, the expiry date and three numbers on the back. No such thing is possible with a debit card. This inherent insecurity may be shielded from the consumer, but that does not make it any less secure. Moreover, the the cost of the fraud it enables is ultimately passed on to the card owner, through card fees and merchant fees that are either added to or included in the price.

    38. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      Nah, I kinda call bullshit. There's got to be more to this story.

      I knew a guy who worked for a major US financial institution. His whole job was correcting for these kinds of errors. Like, money would get transferred to the wrong account all the time, and his job was to call up the other financial institution and say, "Yeah, we made a mistake, we need those millions back." And they would be returned.

      Now, mind you, these were errors on the financial institution's part. It wasn't some dumb customer making the error. But come on -- if you're keeping $40M with a bank and it gets defrauded out of you and the bank does absolutely nothing to help you get it back ... really? What bank is willing to lose a customer with $40M invested? It doesn't make sense.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    39. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      Due to that situation, where I did very much get my money back, I never use a debit card, only a credit card.

      My debit card has a gigantic Visa logo on the front. Doesn't yours?

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    40. Re: Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Ambient+Sheep · · Score: 1

      That may be true when you pay with your card in a shop, but a credit card also allows initiating a payment using only the card number, the expiry date and three numbers on the back. No such thing is possible with a debit card.

      Errrr... I regularly use one of my debit cards to pay one particular utility bill across the internet, using only the card number, the expiry date, and the three numbers on the back. (And no, I'm not thrilled with that, however it's more-or-less necessary for reasons too tedious to go into.) However, it also sometimes asks for some letters from my Verified by Visa password but by no means always. Mind you, my credit cards also have Verified by Visa (or the Mastercard equivalent) passwords, so again, no different.

      UK debit cards can also be used to make telephone purchases where no Verified by Visa password was, or indeed could be, taken, using just your card number, expiry date and three numbers on the back.

      Therefore, from where I'm sitting, UK debit cards are just as (in)secure as UK credit cards.

      From previous discussions I've seen on Slashdot, it does seem that the way debit cards operate in the USA is somewhat different to over here.

    41. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      My debit card has a gigantic Visa logo on the front. Doesn't yours?

      So what? That logo doesn't make it a credit card, and it certainly doesn't mean that the protections that are required by law for credit card holders apply to your debit card.

      Ultimately, that's the difference: if there is fraud on a debit card, your refund depends on the bank's policies and customer service reps. If there is fraud on a credit card, the law requires the credit card company to refund most, if not all of the fraudulent charges.

      I choose to use a card that puts the law on my side. And unless you get a discount for using that debit card, you are not benefiting from the lower merchant fees on it.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    42. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by jandrese · · Score: 1

      My guess is that the money was already gone so the other bank couldn't help. The kind of people who do the research to find the dumbest person in the company with financial authority are the kind of people who have a network setup to launder the money before the victim has a chance to act.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    43. Re: Aren't transactions like this tracked? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      As for Fraud, you are stepping into a whole new area of legal space. Yes, we all pretty much have the same laws. It is a state crime, not civil.

      Nope. Same coin. Perhaps separate side. Since we are all in agreement that US law doesn't protect dumb consumers that make a bad choice, lets look at fraud. The seller encourages a bad choice. I think it would be safe to say that fraud is universally illegal. The only question is where one draws the line between civil and criminal, and victim-blaming. In Nigeria, 419 scams are legal, because the law explicitly blames the victim. So the scammers craft their scams to make sure the scam is legal. That practice is universal, the only difference is that 419 isn't in line with the opinions of those around the world.

      In the US, caveat emptor is the chant/mantra of scammers. About the only thing that doesn't apply to is drugs. Drugs are banned by law from making unsubstantiated claims. But they are about the only thing. for everything else, you ar allowed to lie to sell your wares. The burden of proof is on the "foolish individuals" who made mistakes listening to you. The law doesn't protect you. But the law allows you to try to recover a loss.

      If you walked into Best Buy and walked to the computer section and asked a worker "Will this computer play Crysis at 120 fps? And the worker said, "Yes it will, it's got a great video card that will play Crysis at 120 fps." You buy it. You take it home. You load up Crysis. It plays at 60 FPS, but no better. What are your options? Hope they take back the return? After all, an untruth for financial gain is fraud. Does it matter if it's a store with a less liberal return policy than Best Buy? A guy who built it in his garage? Does it matter if the garage-builder is an LLC?

      Even on Craigslist, if that person sells more than X (10?) cars a year, he is considered a business. He can't fraud people and must pay taxes on profits etc.

      consumer protection and tax law are unrelated.

    44. Re:Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      why can't the banks just reverse all the transactions?

      Imagine you're running a business. A person you've never heard of (let alone met) calls you up wanting a load of expensive stuff. Fortunately one of your employees has a brain and suggests you get payment in advance. Many many dollarpounds land in your account, and you release the order.

      As the truck pulls out of the gate, PYNHO(LAM) hits ctrl-Z and the progress bar starts running from right to left ...

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    45. Re: Aren't transactions like this tracked? by orlanz · · Score: 1

      If Best Buy had it writing, yes it would be called false advertising. They would, at the least, refund the cost. If they sold to a large number of customers, yes Best Buy could face a class action for fraud. A random store guy just telling you a lie isn't supposed to burden all of Best Buy for fraud. BUT if that guy's supervisor gave it to you in writing, again you got a case.

      No shit Sherlock that tax and fraud laws aren't linked. What I was implying is that a stupid deal between private parties are not protected by state or federal law. When you are a business a lot of regulations come into play... Such as false advertisement, selling uninspected housing, unsafe food, frauding the customer, etc.

      But even in private transactions, false advertising, false contracts, and fraud are protected against... Just not stupidity... No one will, nor should, protect you because you gave $10k in cash to some guy on the street who only said he will sell you a bridge tomorrow.

    46. Re: Aren't transactions like this tracked? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, you have a debit card that uses a credit card-like system. I didn't know those existed. I had always understood the term to refer exclusively to cards that are coupled directly to a bank account and can only be used at EFTPOS terminals and cash machines. I am in continental Europe and I assumed the rest of the world (excluding maybe the US) would be similar in this regard, but admittedly, that is quite an assumption.

      In your case I can understand that there is little difference in the inherent saftety of debit and credit cards. I am mildly surprised that you can use a card to pay for a utility bill, though. Over here, such bills can usually only be paid by bank transfer or direct debit

  5. Sounds like a problem with BPO by ErichTheRed · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The company I work for is a medium size multinational. We're big enough to do business worldwide but not so big that we get the "good" BPO vendors or hire "good" employees to do our offshore work. I've been working there for a while, and it seems to me that routine work is getting shipped to cheaper and cheaper countries every year. First it was Eastern Europe, then India, then the Philippines, now Central American countries. I can definitely see something like this happening with some of our core processes. If it followed the flowchart exactly, with all the right steps completed, and everything was in order, not one question would be raised.

    That said, every company is susceptible to this whether the employees are onshore or off. The problem is knowing when to bother the CEO on his yacht, or the golf course, or the luxury resort he's staying at to ask him a question about routine business...especially when you have a message that looks like it came from right from him. Properly implemented digital signatures would help in this case -- but think about the fact that EV certs turn the entire address bar bright green and no one notices that, and they click "Yes" to every pop-up that comes their way.

    1. Re:Sounds like a problem with BPO by whoever57 · · Score: 2

      We're big enough to do business worldwide but not so big that we get the "good" BPO vendors or hire "good" employees to do our offshore work.

      It has nothing to do with size. The problem is that your CXX execs are too tight-fisted to pay for and develop quality outsourcing. I know, because I worked for a vary small company that was able to hire the very best offshore employees.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    2. Re:Sounds like a problem with BPO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That said, every company is susceptible to this whether the employees are onshore or off. The problem is knowing when to bother the CEO on his yacht, or the golf course, or the luxury resort he's staying at to ask him a question about routine business...

      I guess that would depend on the size of the company but I would say that the verification should go up to "being able to shrug it off" level.
      If the amount is small enough that you can survive if it was taken from your salary then you don't check with anyone. If it is a scam then the amount is small enough for the company to swallow it and just let it slide.
      Otherwise you check with your manager. If he/she thinks the amount is small enough that the department can handle the loss then it's OK, otherwise someone higher up needs to give the go ahead.
      A transaction that is large enough to bankrupt the company if it is a scam should definitely lead to someone bothering the CEO before doing the transfer.
      If the CEO isn't around for talking about transactions that are of a size that is vital to the company then he/she is not doing his/her job and should be replaced.

  6. Who else is sick of Cybercrime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem with cybercrime is if it's done across international boundaries the hackers are untouchable, but in a world where companies and politicians use those same international boundaries for grubby arrangement to avoid tax, what chance do we have of getting an international treaty to stop cybercrime?

    1. Re:Who else is sick of Cybercrime? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Well, since borders, customs and tax laws exist for you and me but not for international corporations, it should be doable to keep corporations untouchable while persecution of cybercriminals becomes possible.

      Unless the distinction is not between people and corporations but between honest people and crooks. 'cause then the cybercriminals are on the same page as corporations and politicians.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  7. Re: Encryption and Digital Signatures, Tor like by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Make it TOR like.

    A company CA would only be useful on the first email exchange. After that, it could only be an extra (e.g. also checking the email as it passes the corp email server and adding a warning flag to emails it thinks have the wrong key).

    As long as we removed 'revoke' and 'change key' features (which are really attack vectors), then every email server along the route could check and flag emails it thinks have the wrong key.

    I don't see why you would trust your corporate email server, but have a separate CA than that server, hence I don't ever want a separate CA.

    You could also Onion it. So for example, all emails to @megacorp.com might have a public key for megacorp which is wrapped around the encrypted message that was encrypted for bob@megacorp.com. Megacorps server could then unwrap and verify its emails against the sender (the senders public key is in each layer of the onion), forward the email to Bob, who then decrypted for his key.

    *TIME* being the protector here. Time being possible because we've ditch 'revoke' and 'key change' vulnerabilities.

  8. Question for finance folks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Not having experience in financial environments, can someone tell me if it is common business practice to transfer money simply based on an email request, regardless of the source? I would have thought this needed to be done as part of a formal business transaction.

    1. Re:Question for finance folks by Harlequin80 · · Score: 1

      It's an internal business transaction so it would vary from company to company. Most likely though there was an attachment to the email which would be a form of some kind. If that form was completed properly there would be limited reason to not perform the transaction.

      On top of that $40m is not a large amount of money to transfer in 1 go. Especially not in a manufacturing environment.

    2. Re:Question for finance folks by Gussington · · Score: 1

      On top of that $40m is not a large amount of money to transfer in 1 go. Especially not in a manufacturing environment.

      And this would've been calculated based on all the internal info the attackers gained access to. If you see ~$40M transactions happening every month or so, you simply time your request appropriately and jackpot.

    3. Re:Question for finance folks by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I've worked on accounts payable systems.

      The right way is that (petty cash aside) you don't pay anything that doesn't have an invoice. You wouldn't have an invoice if there's no purchase order. You might also have a delivery note, in which case you'd check the quantities match at least approximately. And you wouldn't have any of the above if there's no vendor master. The vendor master contains the account details to pay into.

      You split the task up so it takes at least two people (ideally three) to do all the steps above.

      Of course that's not agile or webspeed enough for millenials, which is why fuckups happen.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re:Question for finance folks by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      What's common practice is dictated by how your company is run. I don't remember who did the analysis, but the bottom line was something akin to "the more authoritarian the company is led (read: the more of an asshole your boss is), the higher the chance that employees will simply carry out even unsigned orders, knowing that their boss would go ballistic if they dared to ask him for confirmation, which would be considered talking back or challenging his decision and position of authority".

      So in other words, this mostly affects companies with asshole bosses. And who could ever deserve it more?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:Question for finance folks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We go even further. To purchase a good or service we have to first generate a purchase requisition. The purchase requisition is then reviewed by a supervisor and approved, where it generates a purchase order. Then the PO is sent to the vendor who gives us the product or service and bills us for it. The person who receives the good or service has to complete a goods receipt in the financial system, and it cannot be the same person who requested or approved the PO. Once the goods receipt is complete a different person has to generate a request for payment, which is reviewed by accounts payable. Once approved, payment is made and the PO closed.

      That system would be hard as fuck to game unless a lot of people were in on it.

    6. Re:Question for finance folks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      millenials

      I've been seeing this more and more on /. lately and it's starting to get annoying. You guys realize that the oldest millennials are 36 now, right? They're not all 16-22 year old hipsters living in the Bay Area, just getting their first job.

    7. Re:Question for finance folks by Sparowl · · Score: 1

      Well, it's clearly Schrodinger's Millenial - capable of running the business and implementing terrible practices, but also too lazy and hipster-ish to get a job and work their way up.

    8. Re:Question for finance folks by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Hipsters and millenials aren't the same thing. They sure as hell aren't mutually exclusive though.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  9. Suprised she could move that much without concern by Scoldog · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We're in the process of tracking the same type of emails within our company.

    It started two weeks ago when our CFO received an email purportedly from our CEO asking him to transfer money. The CFO was suspicious the second he read it, as the email was well written, had proper grammar and had more than two sentences unlike actual emails from our CEO (I wish I was joking about this, but I'm not)

    We're still trying to see where these emails are coming from.

    Even if he fell for it and tried to send the money, we have a two factor banking system where someone else with authority has to verify the transfer, authorise it and send it. We handle limits well below 40 million.

    I'm suprised one person can transfer 40 million euros without raising any eyebrows beforehand.

    --
    This space for rent
  10. Phony Invoices by BradMajors · · Score: 1

    Anyone who runs a business will know that businesses are continually sent phony invoices and phony demands for payment of numerous kinds.

    1. Re:Phony Invoices by jandrese · · Score: 1

      Yeah, there is a cottage industry built up around sending fake invoices to companies for smallish amounts (a few thousand typically) in the hopes that the accounts payable people are lazy and send the money without checking first. The problem is that they've become victims of their own success. Companies see so many of them that they have procedures in place to prevent the scam from working.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
  11. Money transferred to Czech Republic by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

    At least a good news, the money remains in Europe

    --
    Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
  12. Bank improvements required by Pastis · · Score: 1

    * 2 factor authentication * transfer requests should originate through bank system (not emails) OR CFO should be able to add an 'approver', in this case the CEO, to sign the request.

    1. Re:Bank improvements required by Gussington · · Score: 1

      * 2 factor authentication * transfer requests should originate through bank system (not emails) OR CFO should be able to add an 'approver', in this case the CEO, to sign the request.

      Then the CFO or CEO gets annoyed with the pesky 2FA requests and gives it to his PA to sort out. She has great boobs but is dumb as a post, so is the perfect target for phishing attacks. "Hi it's Rob from the bank, we need to confirm that you have the right 2FA dongle of your account. Can you read the number on the screen to me please". Yes this works, I've seen it happen.

  13. No money laundering check? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is no money laundering check in czech republic???? I can tell you that here in Switzerland if you set up an account and suddenly receive 40 million on it, the bank will make you go through multiple check to ensure that the transaction is real, even if the money is coming from a respectable source. Not doing it will directly engage their responsability.

  14. Sounds like a lot but by Zxern · · Score: 1

    If you work in a business that regularly moves large sums of money around like this everyday, multiple times a day, it's easy to get conned. That's why they go after these types of accounts.

    Wires are instant and depending on the account $40 million wouldn't necessarily throw up a red flag.

    1. Re:Sounds like a lot but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bull.
      Bet the CZ account was not pre-existing, but a new one. Bzzzt red flag 2 - Flag one was 40 mil - quite a lot.
      The first flag was outsourcing to someone without real experience or practical sense.
      As a security pw drone, first thing I was taught was not to give Cxx's super permissions - because one once had a gun to his head under duress.
      There were tricks to this - to catch the baddies while the police were on the way - like - I need you to reboot your PC - while sending a bunch of updates to install on logon, then passing the phone to my supervisor - A Mr Gupta.
      A clever company would have fun with these cheaters - not give them money on a plate.

  15. These are rampant. by Mike+Van+Pelt · · Score: 5, Informative

    This has been going on for at least three years that I know of. There's no real "hacking" involved here at all. Just solid research and social engineering.

    The thief finds out the name of the CEO, and possibly his email address.

    He then finds the name and email address of the treasurer or controller, someone who can transfer funds.

    The thief may register a look-alike domain, for instance, "RealCeoName@cornpany.com" instead of "RealCeoName@company.com". (Depending on your font, you might not be able to tell the difference between those two without a magnifying glass. Or even with one.) Or, he may send the email forged as "from" the CEO's real email address with a Reply-To header diverting replies to a Gmail, Hotmail, or Rob-U-Blind.ru email address. (We all know how easy it is to forge email addresses, right?) Or, he may just have a normal-looking Yahoo address. Usually, the "human readable name" of the From header is the CEO's real name, so MS Outbreak will helpfully not show the victim that the email address is not right.

    The thief addresses the treasurer or controller by name. Sometimes the initial email is nothing more than "Hey, Bob, are you in the office today?" If Bob bites, then the pitch for the transfer is sent. Or, the transfer request might be right up front. A common phrase is "I'm in meetings and can't take calls, kindly email me." If the thief gets no answer, he'll often send a "Bob, did you get my last email?" ping.

    Amounts are usually in the few tens of thousands of dollars. If the financial officer falls for it, more transfer requests are likely to follow until they finally wise up.

    I saw one where the thief somehow knew about a legitimate transaction, and inserted himself, saying "We changed banks, send the payment for that shipment of widgits to our new account, ..." That one I suspect was an inside job.

    A related scam is "Hey, Bob, I'm in China, and this fantastic merger opportunity came up. It is absolutely imperative you keep this completely quiet, and tell NO ONE about it! The lawyer who is handling this will be contacting you in a separate email." This scam can go for hundreds of thousands or even millions.

    Defense: Everyone who handles money, and everyone who says how money is to be handled, most especially the CEO, must agree and sign off on an absolutely inflexible rule that financial transactions are NEVER NEVER NEVER done just on the basis of email. Actual voice confirmation should be required, or the request must go through the company's normal accounting application, etc.

    1. Re:These are rampant. by dbIII · · Score: 1

      A related scam is "Hey, Bob, I'm in China, and this fantastic merger opportunity came up. It is absolutely imperative you keep this completely quiet, and tell NO ONE about it! The lawyer who is handling this will be contacting you in a separate email." This scam can go for hundreds of thousands or even millions.

      There is a trend in Australia to spin off former government owned operations into semi-private "businesses" (telcos, power generators etc) and It seems that just about every one of them "fell" for something like this to the point where it's probably really a way for the new CEO to funnel money out of the org then put it the laundered kickback their own pockets. Telstra had the biggest writedowns from that sort of Chinese investment but there have been many,many others all done within the first few weeks of "private" operation - to the point where it looks deliberate.
      Would you pay a few hundred million for ringtones the seller doesn't have rights to? Whoops!

    2. Re:These are rampant. by houghi · · Score: 1

      Many people have no idea that saying that their boss/CEO is in China can lead up to this. Because that is how social engineers form their basis.
      They can then say 'Hi Bratt, I am in a meeting with Mr. Ping right now and ...." and as that is information that is not widely available, it sounds believable.

      But then, security is a state of mind, not a protocol. That means it needs education.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    3. Re:These are rampant. by jandrese · · Score: 1

      I wonder how long until the scammers helpfully include a contact number in the signature for the money manager to call when they want to verify the transaction? Label it as the cell number to avoid suspicion that it's on the wrong exchange.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    4. Re:These are rampant. by Mike+Van+Pelt · · Score: 1

      A treasurer or controller likely knows the CEO personally, or has at least talked to him in person. The thief would have to be able to convincingly impersonate the CEO. Especially since these tend to be targeting small-to-mid size companies, organizations, and charities.

    5. Re:These are rampant. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Voice is more secure than email?

      Only if the person being manipulated is very familiar with the voice of the person you're impersonating - like, talks to them personally at least once a week. (Something that, incidentally, is pretty unlikely in a European multinational where the boss is German and the employee is Czech.) Otherwise, you should be able to find a voice actor who's competent enough to fool them.

  16. Email should be double-sent to avoid spoofing. by master_p · · Score: 1

    For each email received, the receiving server shall send a request to the sending server to have the email resend. The request should be done via an email, as if the receiver answered the sender.

    Once the receiver receives the email back, intact, then it is confirmed that this is an original email. Otherwise the email shall be deleted.

    This is nothing more than the receiver calling the sender to ask "did you send this email?", automated.

    1. Re:Email should be double-sent to avoid spoofing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The flaw in your plan: DDoS by Joe job.

      A better idea: PKI and some form of secure DNS that includes the certificate.

    2. Re:Email should be double-sent to avoid spoofing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then you can double check the confirmation too - the sender sends an automated re-reply asking why the receiver can't just trust it, and it shouldn't bother his precious CPU cycles with such nonsense in the first place.

  17. BistriÈa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think the name of the town is misspelled in the summary: there should be a comma below the t.

    I tried typing the correct name in this comment, but it didn't show up properly in the preview.

  18. How is this even possible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't think this is possible under any "professional" circumstance. It is more probable that this was just insider scam made to look like one made by an outsider.

    1. Re:How is this even possible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's extremely unlikely, because even though you might create an insider scam that LOOKED like a BEC fraud those same insiders would lack the resources to launder millions of dollars of stolen cash. In order to do that you have to have a string of stolen or compromised bank accounts ready plus all those money mules to make the trail go away. That's the trickiest part of the whole operation.

    2. Re:How is this even possible? by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      Uh, no, "insider job" as in you take one of the CFO's loved ones hostage, then extort her into wiring the money and claiming it was a mistake. Not that the insider was smart enough to organize this all by themselves, they would need people expert in laundering money, i.e. the help of organized crime.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  19. Re:Suprised she could move that much without conce by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Informative

    Maybe I can explain that without breaking NDAs, because we have been tasked with solving this problem for a few customers.

    First, 40 million isn't really that big a deal for many companies. 40 millions are a routine amount for some industries. That's not to say that they wouldn't "feel" the impact of losing 40 million, there are industries that have an insane amount of money throughput without a lot of revenue. You see that in refinement industries that gobble up insane amounts of (sometimes expensive) raw materials, producing (even more expensive) intermediate products with little revenue, so that you have industries with a turnover in the billions and an annual profit in the single digit millions. You see that a lot in food or even more in oil industries.

    So yes, transferring 40 millions could well be a rather normal business operation.

    And two factor means little if you have two people who use the same input because the reason behind the two factor was that the company wants to ensure that nobody can pull an inside job and embezzle money. The companies that are being scammed are usually companies with a branch in a foreign country that is fully dependent and takes orders from the main office. Also, in general companies are preferred that have a strictly hierarchical structure where questioning authority is frowned upon and slavishly following orders is rewarded. Such companies are prime targets and there it also usually works.

    Your example isn't really comparable for two reasons. First, it was the CFO that noticed the problem, a person who has authority and who would even in a strictly hierarchical system be able to talk directly to the CEO, maybe in secrecy so nobody would notice that he "questions" the boss, but even if not he is in a position where he may, if not must, question such decisions. Also, I would assume that the culture in your company is not one of "me boss, you nothing".

    The situation in the scams is very different. Every successful scam so far was pulled at a foreign branch where the people tasked with transferring the money can't simply go informally to their boss and ask whether that's ok, they would have to call or write mails, which might leave a paper trail or be noticed by third parties, also you usually deal with companies here that have a strict hierarchy where you do not question orders.

    Two factor doesn't help here either, because then simply the other person who would need to agree gets the same mail, and likewise cannot question it. What would help is being able and allowed to verify the order or, better, have a digital signature system in place and people who know how to use it.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  20. Re:Suprised she could move that much without conce by powro79 · · Score: 1

    Could you please let me know what the limit at your company is?

  21. "a young woman" - you don't say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did she understand how computers work? Was she doing her nails?

    What a joke. How can ONE employee have the power to send 40 MILLION Euros from a company, if they aren't the CEO of the fucking company?

    1. Re:"a young woman" - you don't say... by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      "Hey, we hired her for her nice rack, not for her computer security skills!"

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    2. Re:"a young woman" - you don't say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is what diversity hires get you. All corporate executives should take note. When you hire someone because they're (female|black|gay|otherquota) instead of because they're the best person for the job, well, don't be surprised when it backfires on you.

  22. undo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ctrl+z

  23. Re:Suprised she could move that much without conce by tehcyder · · Score: 4, Funny

    Could you please let me know what the limit at your company is?

    Not the subtlest piece of attempted social engineering I've ever seen.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  24. Social Engineering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is no patch for human stupidity

  25. Smaller scams also use the same method by UnknowingFool · · Score: 3, Informative

    A few years back, someone emailed different HR people posing as the CEO. The "CEO" wanted them to email a copy of every employee's W-2. While that doesn't affect the company, it affects every employee as the scammers know detailed and vital information about every employee. That information could be used to pilfer the employee's tax refunds, banks, etc.

    The CEO is a bit eccentric so a copy of every W-2 would not be the strangest thing he could request. That meant that he wanted thousands of W-2 PDFs emailed to him. Luckily HR knew the CEO well enough that 1) he was technologically capable enough and wouldn't have them email him copies; he would want it on a network drive he could access, 2) he would never ask a low level HR person himself for the information; he would have asked head of HR, 3) and he wouldn't care about details of thousands of employees personal information; he would want someone to create a summarized report about whatever information he needed like the average salary by demographic, state, etc. Also they thought it might be a violation of privacy laws to send information like that over email. But we learned that other companies were not so fortunate and fell for the scam.

    After that, the IT department changed the email system so that spoofed email addresses could not look authentic. It would no longer say: "Smith, John (CEO)" but "asdf@random.internetaddress.com".

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  26. One of Europe's largest companies? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Leoni AG isn't among the 159 largest by revenue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

  27. Re:Suprised she could move that much without conce by Holi · · Score: 1

    We have been getting them for years, We don;t allow anyone in the company to make transfer requests via email, Problem solved.

    --
    Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
  28. That's Nothin'! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    14M Euros is pennies compared to an EU fine...

  29. You underestimate the attackers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    It's easy to say that the victims were stupid and had poor controls.. because basically they WERE stupid and had poor controls. But the flipside is that the people doing this are excellent social engineers and know exactly how to manipulate people. I can't go into details, but often these frauds are much more sophisticated than just some spam email from ceo@gmail.com.

    I have investigated several incidents like this, mostly unsuccessful but one which scooped several million dollars from the target company. They know EXACTLY what works with victims, a combination of flattery (e.g. "you were recommended to me to do this important transfer") and threats (e.g. "there will be consequences for you if you do not do as I say"). They know all the answers to the frequently asked questions and can create a convincing patchwork of lies that can certainly fool naive financial controllers.

    A lot of it boils down to confidence and authoritativeness. The attackers ooze it. They have nothing to lose in these engagements, if they are rumbled they just disappear behind their cloak of anonymity. In every case I have looked into, the potential victims have always said that the attackers were extremely confident sounding. And when they have someone on the hook they press all the right buttons to get them to continue doing what they want them to do, it is actually quite frightening to see how skilled they are.

    So.. don't always blame the victim for being stupid. Obviously any half-competent organisation shouldn't fall for it. But the attackers are cleverer than you might think.

  30. Might not be money by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

    I heard of a scam where I work where an alleged "higher-up" emailed someone asking for some private information we had access to. They didn't tell us if that scam was successful, but they did tell us that if we got any such request, we needed to clear it with our immediate boss before sending anything.

    --
    Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
  31. Not a solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the boss is really that much of an asshole, they will blame the hapless victim regardless. "You should have checked with me first" will be the final note on their termination record. There will be no lead-in notes regarding previous ass-hattery by the boss.

    1. Re:Not a solution by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Of course. But from the employee's position, not asking whether the transfer is legit is rational.

      If he asks, he gets yelled at and reprimanded regardless.
      If he does not, he only gets to feel the heat if it is actually a scam.

      Risk-management for the employee tells me that it is sensible NOT to ask and carry the risk rather than to realize it.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  32. What's with all these stories about Europe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who cares about Europe? It's a trashy shithole. BIZX/whipslash, please refrain from posting news about European trash and stick to real news people care about, like that affecting US, Russia and Asia. Hell, I'd take Australia and Africa over Europe. Maybe even South America or Canada.

  33. Have they considered an inside job? by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    Person who wired the money gets a split of the proceeds, then claims they made a mistake. Sure, she's out of a job, but she can live pretty well on 20 million Euros...

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    1. Re:Have they considered an inside job? by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      That's my bet.
      That or "wire the money and claim it was a mistake, if you don't want your family full of bullet holes".

  34. Easy to solve problem by LeftCoastThinker · · Score: 1

    It is honestly maddeningly easy to solve this problem, but right now the banks don't give a shit. The solution is for the large corporations to band together and form a "Better Banking Network" (BBN) or some such and force the banks to do the following, otherwise just create their own banks, god knows they have enough capital to do it. I would move my banking. Alternatively laws could be passed, but the bankers own too many politicians.

    1. The final receiving bank accepts liability for fraudulent transactions. This bank in crapistan would be liable for the $40M. The personal finances of the executive level employees and board of directors are also part of this liability for extra motivation as they are likely complicit or at least complacent in the crime. Questionable banks/countries or new banks have restricted electronic transfers and would be required to put up a bond equal to their weekly electronic transfer allowance in case they decide to break the rule they forfeit the bond. Banks that refuse to sign up are blocked from transfering money to or from the BBN.

    2. Banks will only transfer money to other BBN trusted banks who accept liability, and to that end put in due diligence to verify the identity of their customers with bio-metrics, photos, IDs etc. and put a 5 day hold on suspicious transactions and until the originator can be contacted to verify the transaction (but a 5 day minimum).

    3. Restrict electronic transfers over $5000 such that they can be further transferred, but you can't walk in with a checking account that is 10 days old and ask to cash out the $40M that was just transferred in. You have to build up a history of transactions over a number of years that match the requested financial behavior. If you pull $40M out each month in sacks of cash, chances are you are a criminal enterprise to begin with, unless you are moving $500M plus a month through that account. Even then, legit businesses rarely pull out that kind of cash at one time at one bank location, there is just too much liability.

    4. All banks should be able to freeze or reverse electronic transfers back to their origin with a valid order from the originating bank that fraud was involved. By keeping the funds electronic, the thieves can not get the cash out at all, and moving it around does not solve the problem, as tracking 40 transfers is easy if all the banks are relieved of liability by showing the forwarded bank and the destination bank still has the $40M because that new account holder couldn't pull anything out because he couldn't provide a legit identity for the bank to record: fingerprints, clear digital photo matched to drivers license/ID card etc. and/or his account had a history of $600 balance until the EFT today for $40M...

    5. Swiss banks and other criminal enabling banks would go belly up or go legit because they would be cut off from the rest of the banking world, so they may offer anonymous banking, but you cant transfer your money in or out from any other financial institution or location.

    The entire point of cryptocurrencies like bitcoin is that you can conceal the path of that electronic currency. It should be virtually impossible to conceal or obscure bank money transfers from a technical standpoint. The key to a good theft is to get away with the cash. If you cant get away with the cash, you will stop. The reasons banks got harder and harder to rob was the bank was on the hook for stolen cash. These days the EFT scams push the money through "legit" means to a fraudulent bank in some hell hole with no extradition or law enforcement and neither bank is liable. If they were on the hook: problem solved.

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    If you disagree, please post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like
  35. Fork it back by peawormsworth · · Score: 1

    Why don't they just fork the blockchain to a time just before the fraudulent transfer occurred?