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EU Finance Ministers Line Up Behind $21B Tax Ruling Against Apple (herald-dispatch.com)
An anonymous Slashdot reader quotes the Associated Press: Dutch Finance Minister Jeroen Dijsselbloem urged Apple Saturday to "get ready" to pay up, as he and counterparts from other EU nations lined up behind a finding that the technology giant owes billions of euros due to more than a decade of improperly low taxation. Apple's bill could reach 19 billion euros ($21 billion) with interest, and both the company and Ireland, Apple's European headquarters are appealing the European Commission ruling. But on the last day of an EU finance ministers' meeting focused on ways to harmonize tax rules for international companies, Dijsselbloem told reporters that these "have an obligation to pay taxes in a fair way."
"International tax loopholes are a thing of the past," he said. Apple will have to pay back taxes both in the United States and Europe, he added, "so get ready to do that." Philip Hammond, his British counterpart, said the EU was keen "to make sure that international corporations pay the right tax at the right place. That's the fair way to do it, and we are going to make sure it happens."
Austria, France, and Italy are reportedly also watching the case closely.
"International tax loopholes are a thing of the past," he said. Apple will have to pay back taxes both in the United States and Europe, he added, "so get ready to do that." Philip Hammond, his British counterpart, said the EU was keen "to make sure that international corporations pay the right tax at the right place. That's the fair way to do it, and we are going to make sure it happens."
Austria, France, and Italy are reportedly also watching the case closely.
The EU is ignoring a lot of what makes our justice systems different than 3rd world monarchies, dictatorships or theocracies. If what Apple did was legal in the past, they shouldn't just be able to levy a fine just because the law as written wasn't fair. Sure they can change the laws in place through proper channels but just levying taxes because it "feels right" is just tyranny.
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This is where push will come to shove.
You can have whole divisions of lawyers covering each and every aspect of the fine print to the nth level but the bottom line is;
Tax laws, breaks and reductions are not there to be professionally manipulated to the extent that you pay nothing.
Due to loopholes, exploitation and poor oversight megacorporations have had an unfair advantage for decades.
Apple execs will throw a hissy fit because they know they manipulated every legal loophole to pay less. "It's legal" they shout. The intent not to pay tax to any meaningful degree is fucking the rest of us over. The rest of us can decide to call BS and slap you with a fine to pony up what you owe.
Welcome to the iTaxes you owed us and never pay ALL THOSE YEARS -they are magical.
A 'singular oddity' is an event that cannot be explained and only happens when you are alone.
While this does look bad for Apple/Ireland, the finance ministers of the other EU countries don't really have a say in it. It's a legal matter for the courts to interpret the relevant treaties and these guys should have the sense to shut up until there's a final ruling - doing otherwise looks amateurish and undermines belief in the rule of law (hopefully not justifiably so - but the way they're talking would make anyone wonder).
So - the EU is telling Ireland it's not authorized to set it's own tax rates as it sees fit? And that the EU can impose Ex Post Facto tax rates? Enforced by whom?
Somebody explain that "sovereignty" thing to me again, please.
Pacifist paratroopers yell, "Ghandi!" when they jump.
Ever read about how IKEA is organized? Clean that shit up, you tulip-growing windmill lovers.
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Mostly random stuff.
... @tim_cook.
AC comments get piped to
Brexit just might work out after all.
Since the EU clearly believes corporations operating on its soil should actually pay taxes, an opportunity is raising its one-eyed head. Maybe the UK can set itself up with Jersey and the Isle of Man to become the Cayman Islands of the North.
Worse weather. Better tax haven. Everybody wins!
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
I wish you were around back when my local government forgot to tax my corporation. The fact that I was told I didn't have to pay the tax meant absolutely zero when they discovered what had happened.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
So Ireland made a deal with apple about them paying less taxes.
Maybe this deal was against EU regulations, maybe it wasn't.
Why should apple have to pay back taxes to the EU?
If Ireland broke EU regulations, then Ireland is the one who should pay up.
If I unknowingly buy a stolen car and the police find out, I lose the car.
I don't suddenly have to pay an additional fee for having the car for 6 months.
The EU argument is that this is not retroactive taxation. They are simply enforcing the rule that Ireland should have applied originally, but colluded with Apple to bypass.
Should refuse to pay up. Then watch Europe go through stages of grief as it realizes that it cannot purchase iThings, only for grey market resellers to move large amounts of iPhones into Europe. The EU isn't the government and shouldn't be allowed to determine tax law.
Apple execs will throw a hissy fit because they know they manipulated every legal loophole to pay less. "It's legal" they shout.
And let's not forget that these corps lobbied for these laws. Meaning, they are playing by rules that they wrote.
That's what people forget, corps love to say that they are following the law, but they are the ones who wrote it via their lobbyists.
They are not paying it back to EU. They are paying it back to Ireland.
Eu don't collect business taxes, and I don't think any companies pays tax to EU.
By that reasoning, if you make an honest mistake when filing your taxes and this mistake is not caught by the government when you submit your tax return netting you a substantial larger income tax refund than what you should have rightfully received, then you should be able to keep any money you get from them, and not have to pay any of it back when they discover the mistake? While you may not actually be guilty of tax fraud in such circumstances, are you going to argue that you should be able to keep everything that they sent you? You shouldn't be charged any interest for the intervening time between when the taxes were filed and when the mistake was discovered, of course, but why shouldn't you have to pay the difference back?
This actually happened to me, by the way... It was actually my employer's mistake, but it was unintentional on their part as well. I still had to pay back the difference between what they sent me and what I should have received. (Without interest penalty though... as long as I paid it back within a certain time of the date that they sent the notice of the error).
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
If you can read the Dutch news, see
http://www.ad.nl/dossier-nieuws/wiebes-niemand-begrijpt-hout-van-apple-zaak~ae672f61/
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nederland/politiek/wiebes-niemand-begrijpt-hout-van-miljardenclaim-apple
http://www.elsevier.nl/economie/achtergrond/2016/09/zelfs-de-eu-begrijpt-niets-van-apple-verdict-356807/
In short: "We don't understand".
So how can the Dutch minister says this?!
The EU are the ones harmed. Ireland chose to harm itself.
It's more akin to Ireland choosing to sell products in its supermarket at zero profit, thus not paying EU tax due on it and putting the EU supermarket providers at an disadvantage when competing. It's anti-competitive, not theft.
As such, Ireland aren't the ones directly harmed - they chose to do it voluntarily - but the EU sellers who had no idea this was happening and could not compete, were harmed and will be compensated.
The Irish people, however, have also been billions of pounds out of pocket for over a decade and their country is arguing that Apple should keep those billions. I'd be mighty pissed off about that if I lived in Ireland.
The taxes were due to Ireland, and a portion of those were then due to the EU. The EU never received them but the EU do want them. Ireland never received them BECAUSE they don't want them. And it was Ireland that hid them.
It's like Ireland told Apple "I'm supposed to give 10% of that to the EU taxman, but never mind, forget about it". The EU taxman wants his money, whether Ireland want to collect the rest of it or not, and Ireland have no authorisation to NOT collect taxes due to them and to the EU.
It's what happens when you give up your sovereignty, ie via EU accession. The greedy authorities that you subjected yourself to get to decide things for you.
The correct path, if you don't like this, is to leave the EU, as Britain has chosen to do.
The EU was a stupid idea on multiple fronts, not just this one. For instance, the whole Greek thing would have been a non-issue if they were using drachma rather than Euros...they'd just have devalued their currency to cure the problem. But they don't have the ability to do that, since the ECB would have to be in on that, and they aren't interested in helping out Greece at that level. Then again, the loans would never have been issued at such low interest rates and in such quantities had Greece not been part of the EU and Euro zone. So the dumb keeps on piling up.
Or, the Schengen Area...I probably don't need to speak further on this except to note that it sounded great in theory, but the idea of having someone else essentially in charge of your immigration doesn't work well in practice.
If the US had been structured like the EU, we'd have had much more than one civil war.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
That's what this is most symptomatic of. Connect the dots on what has been going on over there, including the Greek squeeze; the Cyprian bank balance asset tax; the importation of as many Muslims as they can entice to flood the continent; BREXIT; and the effort to now build an EU military force. It may not be an ex-post facto (any more than US *selective* enforcement of laws is ex post facto ... but it reeks of desperation and corruption.
The EU is second in line, after Japan, to go down. It's coming on like a freight train.
The person who stands to collect 21 Billion thinks it should be paid before any appeal is completed. When I ask I ask a child if they think they should get $100 for doing nothing they say they deserve it too.
If I unknowingly buy a stolen car and the police find out, I lose the car. I don't suddenly have to pay an additional fee for having the car for 6 months.
Different countries, different laws. If you unknowingly buy stolen goods in the Netherlands, you get to keep them.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
I remember one time when I got my year's income tax records from my employer and was filing my taxes, and using the amounts that they gave me, I was eligible for a substantial refund. I submitted this when I filed my return and received said refund. About 2 months later, however, I received a notification that there had been an error, and although I was not being charged any interest for the intervening time, I still had to pay much of the money I had received back. The error was actually my employer's (although the difference here is that in my case, the mistake my employer made was accidental), but I was still liable for the difference in the tax refund. As I recall, I had something like 6 or 8 weeks to pay it back without any penalty from the time I got the notice.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
So Ireland made a deal with apple about them paying less taxes.
Illegaly within EU regulations
Maybe this deal was against EU regulations, maybe it wasn't.
Everything seems to indicate it was, are you dumb?
Why should apple have to pay back taxes to the EU?
Because they are legally obligated, so simply.
If Ireland broke EU regulations, then Ireland is the one who should pay up.
So now you agree this was against legislation oh...Ireland is getting his punishment too, cant you see how?
If I unknowingly buy a stolen car and the police find out, I lose the car.
Yes, what's that had to do with this? nothing... I repeat again: are you really, really dumb?
I don't suddenly have to pay an additional fee for having the car for 6 months.
Actually yes, but this has nothing to do with the subject, you're dumb that's a fact.
Corporate taxes in the US are too high; that's why these profits have been kept offshore for so long. Most Republicans and Democrats, including Obama, recognize that.
The major political candidate who says she wants to raise corporate taxes is... Hillary. Although, to be fair to Hillary, she is probably lying.
Oh. So maybe Ireland could just give Apple a special $12 billion subsidy?
By selling overpriced bluetooth headphones for the ishits that now have no headphone jack.
And Apple is about to lose the car, so what's your point?
Your analogy is flawed. A better analogy is.
You buy a car from a guy. As condition for buying the car, you demand that the guy promises you that you don't have to pay any income tax for the rest of your life. You buy the car. After not paying income tax, the tax authorities come after you and demand that you pay the taxes that you owe.
I was surprised at how level-headed most of the replies in this thread were until I got to yours.
That's exactly what they're not allowed to do under the EU treaty. Not by handing over the money, not by reducing tax.
They already did. That's how they got into this mess in the first place !!
It's about damned time. And that's MY opinion.
/. Dissent will not be tolerated. Think like us or perish.
Statute of limitations.
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The Netherlands have a similar case (concerning 25M€ to be paid by Starbucks) where they're trying to get out of caiming back taxes so this is wilful ignorance on his part.
I would imagine the Brexit supporters are loving this.
Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading
I would say that if Ireland doesn't want to collect from apple that's their problem, as long as they still pay the EU.
Then they can get sued for subsidizing apple, but that is a different issue in my eyes.
Completely different.
Your company is not the one who determines how much tax you are supposed to pay.
The Irish government is the one who determines how much tax apple should pay.
If they misinform apple, then that is their fault, not apples.
If the EU disagrees with Ireland, then they should demand the money from Ireland, not apple.
Whether or not Ireland tries to get the money form apple should be up to them.
The US funds their 'Greek states' by funneling federal money over to them and reducing their sovereignity even further in the process. 'Schengen' is there in the US -- do you need a passport/visa to cross state lines? Who takes care of immigration in the US? And finally, the only civil war the US had was about leaving the union, a thing we're now going through with Brexit. No war in sight.
I'm not really clear on what you're arguing for here. Should the EU be structured more like the US, reduce sovereignity, and start building up the military to force Great Britain in line? Or should the US get rid of the dollar so that every state can devalue their own currency when they're in trouble? Please explain what the right structure of the EU would be, one that the US can follow without civil wars.
No... it is the Irish government that is supposed to tell Apple how much to pay. The amount is determined by the EU. My company is supposed to tell me how much tax I am supposed to pay, if they get it wrong, I still owe the amount that I'm supposed to pay.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Ireland made a tax deal with Apple allowing them to pay lower taxes, in order to encourage them to locate certain business in Ireland rather than elsewhere. The problem is, that Ireland has a treaty with the EU saying it wouldn't give such tax breaks. So it looks like Ireland broke their agreement with the EU, and the EU is maybe right to enforce the punishments specified by the treaty. Apple is not party to the Ireland-EU taxing agreement, and should not be included in any EU punishment against Ireland for breaking treaty. In fact, it is not clear that this ruling should let Ireland off the hook for sticking to the Tax agreements it has made with Apple going forward.
Of course, and a statute of limitations applies here too. That's why it only goes back to 2003 and not to 1991 when Ireland artificially lowered the amount of tax they said Apple would have to pay
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Ireland get the tax not the EU. The EU dont and cannot collect businesses tax. What Ireland, a country which has harsh austerity measure I may add, have done is removed billions from the EU Economy. They have helped no on except apple.
But hey fk facts hey? And the EU is involved so it must be a money grab by the globalists hey.
lol, devalue the Drachma to solve their problem. LMOA. Their are a lot more problems with the way Greece was ran than that.
The money will be a nice little blip in the various countries' economies. But it is not the important thing. The key problem that I have long had with these crazy tax situations is that if a UK version of say facebook, uber, snapchat, etc were to be born, it immediately will have to compete against a company that doesn't pay taxes. This lesser tax money has many benefits, the shareholders are going to be more attracted to the non-tax paying company, they have more money for acquisitions and R&D, and they have more money for marketing and political influence. Seeing that most European countries have fairly high taxes, this is a wildly unlevel playing field.
So while the finance types might be happy to see these billions show up in their coffers, it is far better that the various European countries might now see their own Apples, facebooks, and ubers. Companies that not only will pay local taxes, but hire scads of top locals, and often create the dreaded phrase, centers of excellence.
These things are far better than gathering a few extra scrapings from Apple.
It's a tax cartel, and they're ganging up on a member who broke out of the cartel and undercut them.
Moreover, taxation is unethical because it's non-voluntary. The whole thing is wrong in the first place.
I am darkly amused to see the Dutch pushing for this - the top income tax now is 62%. I've no doubt the idea of being undercut on taxation - of people or companies having some *choice* about how much they're forced to pay - terrifies them.
The US early on dispensed with state sovereignty - it was a dead letter even before the Civil War. States could not contract foreign debt. States could form a militia but that was subverted to Federal control upon demand. In addition, the US had a bond of unified language and (mostly) unified culture. Patriotism toward an idea of "United States" was an early feature of the country.
Imagine a US where some states were Francophone (Louisiana) or Spanish-speaking (Mexican cessions, Florida) at the outset, and were allowed to stay that way. Where states like that would keep stronger ties with foreign powers than with the US itself. Where internal customs barriers were permitted to exist (at all). Where each state kept its own private army and ran its own foreign policy. Where states could contract foreign debt but were forced to denominate it in dollars. You'd have the US run mostly like the EU, and there's where the trouble would happen. In fact, this sounds like the US under the Articles of Confederation (pre-1787). It didn't work very well.
I don't know how the EU could be remade to be more like the US - some of the issues are inherent in the nature of Europe itself and can't be easily undone. Language and cultural barriers are one big one here. But I do know that loose confederations of disparate peoples don't work well in practice.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
It's what happens when you give up your sovereignty, ie via EU accession. The greedy authorities that you subjected yourself to get to decide things for you.
The correct path, if you don't like this, is to leave the EU, as Britain has chosen to do.
Not this bullshit again. Tell me, how did we give up our sovereignty if were were and are free to leave at any time? Here's an answer: we didn't. This has to be one of the absolute stupidest ideas of the entire issue that "sovereignty" means you can do what you want at any time and there will be no consequences of any sort.
"sovereignty" does not mean you get to tear up your half of an agreement while the other side sticks to theirs.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
That's exactly what they're not allowed to do under the EU treaty. Not by handing over the money, not by reducing tax.
Bull Shit. It's only a problem when it's a us company.
So Ireland made a deal with apple about them paying less taxes.
Illegaly within EU regulations
Only when it's a US company. European companies get a free pass.
Of course the EU wants $21B from Apple. The EU sees it as a quick fix for it's troubles. Greed leads them to try and find money where they can.
Thought it was going to take governments forever to figure out how to tax corporations on sales made within their country boundaries.
For context- this is roughly one QUARTER's worth of profits for apple.
And apple pushed their tax rate from 0.5% to 0.005% to set off this story showing us that bulls make money, bears make money... but pigs get slaughtered.
This will probably collapse apple stock as future profits being depressed wont' support as high a stock price.
Which means LOWER BONUSES for apple executives. If they can't go to jail for tax fraud, at least they can be denied making huge profits from tax fraud.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
You do realize that Schengen Area, Eurozone and European Union are three different things?
Last I looked (and it wasn't current) Apple was worth more than $700 Billion dollars. At times their tax bill was $50 per million. That's $5 per hundred thousand, or $1 per twenty thousand, which is freeloading. So now Apple owes $20 Billion. That's probably about right. They probably owe the US government about $150 Billion in taxes too. And they aren't paying. And if I were the US government, I would make it a priority to close that loophole. If you make the money here, you pay the tax here, all of it, now. If you are late you pay penalties and fines (with interest). That the US government hasn't done this is sick and twisted. "If you tax us we will leave". Well having a wealthy company in your country is useless if you don't tax them.
> The amount is determined by the EU.
I could be wrong, but I thought it was the exact opposite.
As far as I understand Ireland determines how much tax to charge, with the problem being that in this case they charged apple less tax than they do other companies.
On second thought, maybe your right.
Ireland only charged taxes on sales within Ireland, and was supposed to collect on sales in the rest of the EU but didn't.
If that's the case then it's more like California telling you you don't have to pay federal tax.
Which would obviously be bullshit.
Specifically, a British Overseas Territory.
It was a deliberate policy during the dissolution of the British Empire to channel some of the more illegitimate money into the UK economy.
This may well have been apparent but it's not very well-known even amongst political lefties in Britain.
Apple is just losing the car. Nothing more nothing less.
I'm not even an Apple fan, but retroactive taxation is total BS. Close the "loophole" or punish the country that allegedly violated some law or another, sure. Apple can then decide if it wants to accept the new rates for FUTURE profits, of which there will be plenty.
Randomly changing tax rates on already paid taxes? Just No, FU-EU!
Imagine if the fed decided that your state was charging you too little income tax, because of some factor, like say giving you a tax break for hiring X number of local college grads and keeping them on staff for 2+ years. Now they tell your state "sorry, you charged Sarah over there too little state income tax over the past 10 years, you must force her to pay you." Seriously? That's so far beyond asinine that it's deserves it's own entry in the dictionary.
thats would be interesting, charge every iPhone owner and tax surcharge?
If I unknowingly buy a stolen car and the police find out, I lose the car.
In your not so good analogy, apple is either the guy that sold you the stolen car, or you. Either way, they would have to pay.
As is arson. Neither is very relevant to this ruling.
Businesses don't pay taxes.
People pay taxes.
Go ahead. Tax em all you want. And enjoy paying for it when you buy your next iPhone.
Even the article says that doing so is illegal:
"The issue is a multi-decade pattern of illegal subsidies that the European Union and four member countries have given to commercial-transport producer Airbus"
Oh, sure it happens. Rich people break the law all the time. Apple has done so for years, and only now is the EU doing anything. The EU moves slowly. Very slowly. Imagine Italian bureaucracy merged with German bureaucracy...
Not EXACTLY.
Each country in the EU has to contribute according to its income. Ireland has contributed little to the EU because it has had low tax income. If it is now forced to raise its taxes, it will have to contribute more to the EU...
"sovereignty" does not mean you get to tear up your half of an agreement while the other side sticks to theirs.
To the US it does. At least that is what they tend to do with their treaties.
If Apple didn't have mountains of cash, would this even be in the news at all?
The smell of this situation is that Apple is successful, so let's go after their huge pocketbook, because of course they must have been doing something wrong.
It also smells that it's always companies like Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc. that we hear in the news, which are all non-EU companies. If there are EU companies under investigation, why don't we hear about them in the news?
"There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
No, but a politician can put forth a bill, which (after proper process and review) would then become law.
Then, when the law is violated, then you (or in this case Apple as a corporation) can be penalised for doing so. Just like a citizen who has been fined or charged with a crime, there is an option to dispute the charges in court. If a good enough case is brought forth, a judge can modify the fine or even kill the law entirely in some cases.
No mob needed. It's just the legal process. The EU is a bit of a weird thing because you have a bunch of different countries under one umbrella, but it's not as if this is a new rule.
They aren't that different. They're all full of smelly foreigners who drive on the wrong side of the road.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."