Windows 10 Haters: Try Linux On Kaby Lake Chips With Dell's New XPS 13 (pcworld.com)

Attention Linux enthusiasts. Your OS of your choice can finally work on laptops with Intel's Kaby Lake chips. Dell is releasing three new models of slick XPS 13 Developer Edition that will be available with Ubuntu OS and 7th Generation Core processors in the U.S. and Canada starting on Oct. 10, reports PCWorld. From the article:Prices for XPS 13 DE will start at $949. Dell also announced the XPS 13 model with Kaby Lake and Windows 10, which will ship on Oct. 4 starting at $799. Dell didn't share details on what version of Ubuntu desktop OS will be preloaded. It officially supports Ubuntu 14.04 in existing laptops, but could pre-load version 16.04 on the new XPS 13 DE. Dell has remained committed to Linux while major PC vendors shift to Windows 10 on PCs. Intel made a major commitment to supporting Windows 10 with its new Kaby Lake chips but hasn't talked much about Linux support. XPS 13 DE is perhaps the sexiest and thinnest Linux laptop available, with an edge-to-edge screen being a stand-out feature. It is the latest in Dell's Project Sputnik line of laptops, and it is targeted at computer enthusiasts who want a Windows or Mac alternative. A knock against Linux is that the OS has lagged behind Windows on driver development and on supporting the latest technologies like USB-C ports, 4K screens, and Thunderbolt. Project Sputnik started four years ago as an effort between Dell and the open-source community to bridge that gap, and since then, the resulting laptops have achieved cult status among Linux enthusiasts. A Dell XPS 13 with a Core i5 chip will have a full HD screen, 8GB of RAM, and a 128GB SSD. Another configuration will have a 3200 x 1800-pixel screen, Core i5, and a 256GB SSD. A fully loaded model will have a Core i7 chip, a 512GB SSD, 16GB of RAM, and a 3200 x 1800-pixel screen.

Comments

The more hated windows 10 is

[Anonymous Coward]

the better for linux. So, lets all hate win 10 a bit.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[courteaudotbiz]

The problem here is that the Linux version is 150$ more expensive. So basically, you pay more to have a free OS. Sound logical.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[donaldm]

the better for linux. So, lets all hate win 10 a bit.

That's not difficult, after all why would I want to run malware

From the first sentence of the Wiki for those who are in denial or can't be bothered clicking on the link.

"Malware, short for malicious software, is any software used to disrupt computer operations, gather sensitive information, gain access to private computer systems, or display unwanted advertising."

Sound familiar? Of course, most people will say "But I don't have anything to hide" - Sad really, they have been in the water too long and now it's started to get hot. I hope they enjoy their gold plated chains.

Oh I almost forgot Linux also works on Skylake systems as well.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[chuckugly]

Executive summary: It makes total sense if you have any inkling of how the PC business works. ISVs pay hardware makers to pre-install their software on consumer PCs, thus partially subsidizing the PC for the consumer. They consider it a marketing expense. Yes, you actually do get PAID to have that shovelware put in front of your face. Couple that with the larger unit volumes for Win10 equipped devices and there's your answer.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[wierd_w]

If their shovelware was better written, it would work in WINE, and then they could still have it preinstalled. Maybe even easier to preinstall it, since a WINE prefix can be straight up copied between machines without having to use disk imaging software.

Re: The more hated windows 10 is

[Anonymous Coward]

That is exactly what I thought. Plus, if you're a Linux enthusiast you can get Linux to run on anything !

Re: The more hated windows 10 is

[Billly Gates]

Dell is notorious for having 2 different products with the same model name. If one sound chip is $.03 cheaper they replace it. Same with mixing LAN, storage, video etc. It sucks bad downloading drivers for executives as you can have +30 drivers all different for each same model all with their own quirks.

The Linux model probably has the same parts and is tested for compability with drivers. You know it will work well basically which is a plus

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[jetkust]

The problem here is that the Linux version is 150$ more expensive. So basically, you pay more to have a free OS. Sound logical.

No it isn't. The prices are different because the specs are different. Windows 10 costs extra. Ubuntu is free. Nothing to see here.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Ol Olsoc]

the better for linux. So, lets all hate win 10 a bit.

Does hating win 10 a lot count?

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Anonymous Coward]

If their shovelware was better written, it would work in WINE, and then they could still have it preinstalled. Maybe even easier to preinstall it, since a WINE prefix can be straight up copied between machines without having to use disk imaging software.

If WINE was written better, it would work with all windows software. Go contribute.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Ol Olsoc]

The problem here is that the Linux version is 150$ more expensive. So basically, you pay more to have a free OS. Sound logical.

You make the mistake of assuming that linux users are linux users because they are cheap. At least for mysself and the others I know that use Linux, we use it because it works better, is more secure, and we like it. I just like Unix and it's linux flavor. That's why my computers are either OSX or Linux. 150 is well worth it to me.

Re: The more hated windows 10 is

[Joe_Dragon]

LAN and sound drivers are better on Linux then on windows. WLAN is more windows based for the wrapper based ones. But any ways the linux distros ship with way more drivers then windows.

It's the touch pad / web cam / other laptop stuff that is iffy in Linux.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[ukoda]

The Linux version has different parts. From memory the WiFi chipset is different as the one in the Windows version has poor Linux support whereas the XPS DE has changed to a chipset with good driver support. Not sure what your time is worth but $150 was worth it from a machine where everything worked first time on Linux. Compared to the Apple MBA that my XPS DE replaced it is a dream. It took many hours to get the Mac working on Linux and I never did get the camera working on it. So yea I spent $150 on a free OS, then promptly replaced Ubuntu with Mint 18 anyway. It worked first time too, no drivers needed.
If the $150 really worries you then XPS is probably the wrong range of machines to look at, there are plenty of cheaper options out there.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Ol Olsoc]

If their shovelware was better written, it would work in WINE, and then they could still have it preinstalled. Maybe even easier to preinstall it, since a WINE prefix can be straight up copied between machines without having to use disk imaging software.

Who the hell wants that shit on their computer? For me, not having it on the computer is just icing on the cake. Saves me the trouble of uninstalling it.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[jetkust]

The problem here is that the Linux version is 150$ more expensive. So basically, you pay more to have a free OS. Sound logical.

You make the mistake of assuming that linux users are linux users because they are cheap. At least for mysself and the others I know that use Linux, we use it because it works better, is more secure, and we like it. I just like Unix and it's linux flavor. That's why my computers are either OSX or Linux. 150 is well worth it to me.

While I agree with you. The parent post is wrong. The $799 laptop with Windows has an i3, 4GB memory, 128 GB SSD. The Ubuntu version has an i5, 8GB memory, 256 GB SSD. Looking on Dell's website, the Windows version is $100 more with the same specs.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[wierd_w]

uninstalling would be equally easy. just delete the prefix folder and make a new one.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Grishnakh]

The shovelware is all crapware; on a Linux system, there's just no need for any of it.

They could pre-install it, but it'd be rather pointless because there's much better free stuff available in a standard Linux distro.

What companies like Dell could do is make a special Ubuntu version with the crapware running on WINE, and its Free counterparts not installed by default, so that they can get money from the shovelware vendors, and simultaneously not have to pay Microsoft any license fees for Windows. Then they could offer these laptops at a significant discount compared to the regular Win10 versions and still profit. But this idea is questionable: would the shovelware vendors actually pay to have their crapware pre-installed on an Ubuntu system, the way they do with a Windows one? If they don't, or they don't pay nearly as much, then the scheme doesn't work.

Basically the way the whole system works right now is that you pay a bunch (probably $100) for a Windows license on a laptop you buy, but then you get a bigger discount because the shovelware vendors pay Dell the put their crapware on, and this more than makes up for the Windows license fee. Dell passes some of this savings on to the customer (because the other laptop vendors are doing the same thing, and trying to keep prices as low as possible as it's a tight market). The shovelware vendors do this because there's a chance with every customer that they're going to "upgrade" to the full version of the software, and they'll get a big fee from that. So when they pre-load Ubuntu instead, you save the Windows fee, but then you don't get to take advantage of all the shovelware subsidies, so the price is higher (plus the sales volume for Ubuntu is much smaller, so Dell probably charges extra for that). If the shovelware vendors don't think they're going to get many Ubuntu/WINE customers signing up for their crapware, then they're not going to offer these subsidies to Dell for preloading.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Grishnakh]

Personally, I don't care. Why would I use the stock Ubuntu (or any distro really) image that comes pre-loaded on a computer anyway? If I were to buy one of these computers, the first thing I'd do with it is wipe out the HD and install my own preferred Linux distro image on it, just like I already do when I get a computer that has Windows on it. (Actually, with Windows I'll usually relegate it to a small partition just in case I need it to run some stupid Windows-only software. There'd be no need for that with Ubuntu; I'll just wipe it and install Mint.)

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Anonymous Coward]

The Linux version has different parts. From memory the WiFi chipset is different as the one in the Windows version has poor Linux support whereas the XPS DE has changed to a chipset with good driver support. Not sure what your time is worth but $150 was worth it from a machine where everything worked first time on Linux. Compared to the Apple MBA that my XPS DE replaced it is a dream. It took many hours to get the Mac working on Linux and I never did get the camera working on it. So yea I spent $150 on a free OS, then promptly replaced Ubuntu with Mint 18 anyway. It worked first time too, no drivers needed.

If the $150 really worries you then XPS is probably the wrong range of machines to look at, there are plenty of cheaper options out there.

Why would you buy a Mac only to install Linux on it? You're overpaying for the hardware and an OS you don't want. Just buy the same Intel model and install Linux on it...

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Grishnakh]

Unless things have changed, WiFi on a decent laptop is usually implemented as a removable miniPCIe card. You can get any card you want on Ebay for $20 or less; I usually use some Intel card, I forget the model number now.

Of course, I'm the kind of person who buys a business-class (Latitude) laptop on Ebay that's a few years old, off-lease, and installs his own OS on it. I never have trouble getting the hardware to work on Dell Latitudes, except maybe video stuff if I'm doing stuff like using a docking station with multiple monitors. It'd be really nice if Nvidia would open-source part of their driver and merge it with Nouveau. They can keep the "secret sauce" 3D stuff that has IP issues closed, I just want the parts that deal with the kernel interfaces and mode-setting open so it can be integrated better with modern Linux distros. They could keep their closed fancy part as an optional loadable module for Nouveau.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? To piss off the Appletards?

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[danbob999]

I doubt they pay $150 to Dell to have their $20 software builtin.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[ukoda]

Yes that is the way to do it on the cheap. For my parents I brought a cheap reasonable spec HP but could not get the WiFi to work. In the end I did exactly what you did, brought new miniPCIe WiFi card for it that supported Linux. I probably spent 4+ hours on the problem.

I still think an extra $150 on a high spec machine was worth it to not worrying about if they provide a solution that works. I get paid more that $38/hr so in the case of the cheap HP I would have been better off paying an extra $150. The problem most times is you have no idea what will work with Linux and what won't before buying a PC. For the XPS DE you know up front where you are at with Linux.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[chuckugly]

No single vendor pays $150, and as I said, some of the difference is in economies of scale, however if you have 3-10 ISVs each paying $5-$20, it adds up.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[chuckugly]

It's highly unlikely they would get paid for this, as ISVs track the ROI on all this stuff and no one with this installed on WINE is going to pay for the full version.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[JesseMcDonald]

Unless things have changed, WiFi on a decent laptop is usually implemented as a removable miniPCIe card. You can get any card you want on Ebay for $20 or less; I usually use some Intel card, I forget the model number now.

Will that work here? The last time I tried to swap out the WiFi card in a Dell laptop (fairly recent, but not an XPS) for another one from the same manufacturer (Intel) it refused to boot with the BIOS citing a problem with the WiFi card's serial number.

I like the look of this XPS 13 DE, but I wouldn't care to buy any laptop with that degree of hardware lock-down.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Ol Olsoc]

While I agree with you. The parent post is wrong. The $799 laptop with Windows has an i3, 4GB memory, 128 GB SSD. The Ubuntu version has an i5, 8GB memory, 256 GB SSD. Looking on Dell's website, the Windows version is $100 more with the same specs.

800 bucks for an i3 and those specs?? Yikes!

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Anonymous Coward]

Do... Do you realize what you just said?

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Ol Olsoc]

Personally, I don't care. Why would I use the stock Ubuntu (or any distro really) image that comes pre-loaded on a computer anyway? If I were to buy one of these computers, the first thing I'd do with it is wipe out the HD and install my own preferred Linux distro image on it,

Well, I'd do the same, since I've been into Ubuntu Mate for the last year. But in the context of the conversation, for certain, I wouldn't want a pre-installed Linux machine with suckware on it.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem here is that the Linux version is 150$ more expensive. So basically, you pay more to have a free OS. Sound logical.

Well then it's a damn good thing that Windows is free, right? Oh, wait..........

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Luthair]

I'd say its more likely to be the money dell spends on testing Linux spread over the tiny number of sales.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Anonymous Coward]

The real problem here is that the "article" is misleading garbage. Kaby Lake CPUs are still x86, right? That means _all_ Linux distros will run on it. They may immediately not support the latest version of MMX/3DNow!/SSE/AVX or whatever they're calling it, but it will work fine.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Grishnakh]

Yeah, but still, how many people actually would buy a Linux PC like this, and then just leave on whatever version of Linux was pre-loaded, instead of loading their own? Maybe in some hypothetical future where regular non-techie people are buying Linux PCs and using Linux, and Linux has a significant marketshare, but in today's world I just don't see it.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[chuckugly]

It's going to be both, I'm not sure which one would be the majority contributor. Also, Dell does pay for Win10 licenses, albeit not much per copy, so that cost has to be offset on the Windows machines. Microsoft actually sometimes pays in the form of a deeper OEM discount if the OEM leaves the shovelware off, but it's often the case that the ISVs outbid them.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Grishnakh]

I have heard of some laptops having BIOS locks on WiFi cards, so that only certain ones (from the laptop maker of course, for more $$$) will work. What kind of laptop was this; was it a consumer model or a business model? I try to always buy business-class equipment for this reason; they don't seem to do this stuff nearly as much.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Anonymous Coward]

I have trouble running wifi on a *desktop*. One day I may look into getting an adapter card to run a laptop's wifi (full size PCI or PCIe card with antenna or antennas that takes a laptop mini card)

For now I have an outdated smartphone (Firefox OS!) that works like a small router. Gets wifi, and shares it on USB networking.
Works well for the purpose.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[JesseMcDonald]

I think it was an Inspiron. Almost certainly one of the consumer lines. It had a smooth underside with no ventilation holes or visible screws, no removable battery, and few ports. (One needs to remove the rubber feet to open the case.) I don't have it with me to check the exact model.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[dbIII]

For as long as software patents exist in the current form the Nvidia stuff will stay closed. A lot of SGI people who got badly burned in court over software patents ended up in Nvidia.
Software patent idiocy of the day - older android phones given a choice between to WiFi access points of the same name switch to the stronger signal if you move. Recent android phones don't because Apple has patented something so incredibly fucking obvious.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[thegarbz]

It's not that we don't have anything to hide, it's that the world is providing so much data that really the only thing left to analyse is generalised usage statistics. To those who say now MS knows what porn you're watching, guess what... they really don't give a shit.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Gavagai80]

It's too easy for Linux users to reinstall to get rid of the shovelware. And too likely since we all have different favorite distros.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Grishnakh]

How was Apple able to patent that? That's a fundamental feature of EAP and has been standard in enterprise WiFi for probably longer than Apple has made phones.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[xlsior]

The windows version can be cheaper because it tends to be partially subsidized by the vendors of the 'free trial' shovelware like mcafee/Norton that are bundled 'for your convenience'

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Slashcrunch]

The problem here is that the Linux version is 150$ more expensive.

Who cares? Save yourself the money and install it yourself. The XPS models seem very Linux friendly. I'm happy with my 9550. Install was smooth, everything works out of the box.

Or, pick up a *nix friendly laptop from one of the *nix friendly vendors out there?

Re: The more hated windows 10 is

[Zontar The Mindless]

It's the touch pad / web cam / other laptop stuff that is iffy in Linux.

*tries to recall installing Linux on a laptop whose touchpad and camera did not work out of the box in the last ten years, fails*

Oh, really? If you say so...

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Zontar The Mindless]

Who uses a laptop wifi card anymore? I've not even bothered setting them up in the last 5 years or so--I just plug in my phone and use whatever network is available.

(I understand in some countries they try to keep you from doing this by crippling the phone...? And that the vendors have managed not to get lynched yet for trying to pull this stunt...? *shakes head*)

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called subsidies and is OK when corporations do it.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[dbIII]

How was Apple able to patent that?

I've go no idea. It seems software patents don't require the sort of novelty that is required when patenting other sorts of inventions.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Anonymous Coward]

You're paying $150 for them to not pre-install marketing garbage. It's like buying a Kindle without lock screen ads. It's more expensive so you don't have to deal with gaudy ads.

Re: The more hated windows 10 is

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought the xps pre-installed with Ubuntu last year. Would not update and Ubuntu's ui (unity) stinks on ice. But it's a joy running Mint 17.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Shirley Marquez]

Are you sure they have the same specs? Dell offers a bunch of XPS 13 configurations but only three of them are available with Linux. In the current version of the XPS 13, the base configuration with an i3 CPU is not offered as a Developer Edition, which makes sense because no developer is going to want that configuration - it also only has 4GB RAM.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[Anonymous Coward]

the better for linux. So, lets all hate win 10 a bit.

Does hating win 10 a lot count?

"a lot" is the only rational amount of Hate for windows 10.

Re:The more hated windows 10 is

[shutdown -p now]

Why would you plug in your phone, if it can be used as a WiFi hotspot without taking it out of your pocket?

What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[jfdavis668]

Can't I get one with Fedora?

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, obviously:

Ubuntu Haters: Try Windows 10 On Kaby Lake Chips With Dell's New XPS 13
Yours truely,
Microsoft

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Shane_Optima]

I hear they're tossing in a ballgag if you're into that sort of thing. Seriously though, what exactly is the appeal of Fedora? Familiarity via using RH Enterprise at work? I'm not saying I'm in love with Ubuntu in particular, but Fedora has long puzzled me in this regard. Beyond the (perhaps familiar to many) rpm ecosystem, what does it offer? It's not topping the list on life cycle, stability, user-friendliness, tweak-ability, respect for users or pragmatism (see their "not our problem; go yell at Adobe " response to breaking 64 bit flash a few years back), etc.

There has to be some niche I'm overlooking here. I just couldn't ever find a compelling reason to join this massive all-volunteer Red Hat beta testing team. Maybe it's just an easy way to get more up-to-date apps if you're too impatient for something like Gentoo or Arch? (Even then, I'm not certain it has much over the non-stable and non-LTS Debian-based options.)

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Then go Debian Red Hat or Suse

I hate the dumbed down ubuntu. Let's get these kids today to have to set up CLI before they can configure their GUI. We are making people dumber and dumber not having them learn what they're actually running!!!
Linux / GNU 4 LIFE

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[armanox]

Fedora is a very upstream distribution, and also does very little modification to the bundled software. They also contribute more back upstream then any other distribution does. Finally, The changes that happen in Fedora set the stage for Linux in general - the Fedora team does things first (PulseAudio, Network Manager, GNOME, systemd) and every one else follows.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[jfdavis668]

It runs the software I want to run. I have been using Redhat/Fedora Core/Fedora since the original version 3. I'm not looking for it to entertain me.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Shane_Optima]

I can't quite square hating Ubuntu for being "dumbed-down" and promoting Red Hat. Their antics at the helm of GNOME alone plainly show the utter contempt in which they hold their users (which, to be fair, must be deserved to some degree--I mean, for whatever reason, people kept using GNOME.)

Ubuntu has a very handy five year LTS snapshot release style that RH has refused to match for their desktop product, which is only support for something like 18 months. They also have extended the dpkg system with PPAs which (last time I checked) Debian did not support out of the box.

Appreciating all of that and being a fan of Mir or the Unity desktop are two entirely different things. Just use a derivative like Xubuntu or Kubuntu instead. Problem solved. All of the advantages of Ubuntu (and by extension Debian) with few of the disadvantages.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Shane_Optima]

Fair enough. Momentum is a perfectly valid reason--change shouldn't be undertaken for the sake of change. The human lifespan is, after all, finite.

But that's just *you*. Fedora is still really popular and even recommended to noobs and I can't figure out why. (The continued popularity of GNOME is an even bigger mystery, but it's one that is closely tied to the mystery of Fedora.)

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Shane_Optima]

Fedora is a very upstream distribution, and also does very little modification to the bundled software.

Like Debian, Gentoo or Arch? Maybe I'm misinformed but I thought Ubuntu was the only one well known for that sort of thing.

They also contribute more back upstream then any other distribution does. Finally, The changes that happen in Fedora set the stage for Linux in general - the Fedora team does things first (PulseAudio, Network Manager, GNOME, systemd) and every one else follows.

And that's a positive, is it?

I don't mean to start a religious war here... at least, not on Poettering. I mean with systemd, whatever, there are some valid arguments on both sides there. But GNOME is some kind of bizarre BSDM experiment or something. They've managed to show less respect for their users than Microsoft. Removing as many user choices as possible has long been an explicit goal of theirs. And they've waged a unilateral war against screensavers, inexplicably and for no benefit that I can discern, for something like a decade now. For all their supposed streamlining they still aren't a lightweight or easy to configure DE, and since Gnome 3 they certainly haven't been the 'easy' option or the one you'd install on grandma's computer.

If Red Hat is responsible for that little list of yours, I think the wisest option would be to NOT support them, to be vocal about using XFCE or KDE or OpenRC or whatever, so that they are (eventually) forced to listen to their users and modify the priorities of some of those projects that they contribute so heavily to. And it's not like easy to use alternatives are especially hard to come by. Debian derivatives are a breeze to use and are available in LTS, rapid release or rolling release, with every major (and most minor) desktop environment not only supported but configured right of the box.

As an end user, the only really interesting thing I've seen out of RH in recent years is Docker (but I'm afraid it's nowhere near as interesting as Qubes.)

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Grishnakh]

Appreciating all of that and being a fan of Mir or the Unity desktop are two entirely different things. Just use a derivative like Xubuntu or Kubuntu instead.

Or one of the many flavors of Mint.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[techno-vampire]

I've been using Fedora since FC 6, and it's been my only OS since F 9. I've helped several people migrate to Linux, and not put any of them on Fedora because it's a medium-geeky distro that's not for newbies. Generally, they end up with Xubuntu, to give them an easy to use distro that avoids the horror show of Unity. Of course, I also use Xfce, because I want to be able to customize my desktop more than Gnome 3 is willing to allow.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Grishnakh]

Almost no one is following with GNOME 3; instead, they abandoned it and created MATE and Cinnamon and Unity, or they switched to Xfce or LXDE or KDE.

Fedora/RH seems to do some useful infrastructural stuff, but DEs they're terrible at. Why they keep pushing GNOME is a mystery; it's a terrible DE.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Shane_Optima]

That too. Although I've found they're a little superfluous in recent years... for all of their modifications (discouraging non-Mint updates to the point of modifying Synaptic to remove the "update all" button, removing the apparmor profiles Ubuntu implemented, etc.), I'm not sure if they bring much to the table.

I guess they did come up with Cinnamon, which I guess might be good to look at if you want an eye-candy DE that doesn't hate you *and* you can't stand KDE. I personally discourage this approach, as I think that it merely encourages the GNOME devs who are in need of some good behavior-modifying feedback.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Ol Olsoc]

I hate the dumbed down ubuntu. Let's get these kids today to have to set up CLI before they can configure their GUI.

I'm pissed off they took hand cranks from car engines.

It's silly to demand that people return to 1985 to do basic computing. There are altogether too many uses of computers to demand that everyone start there.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[unixisc]

Can't I get one with Fedora?

If I get SteamOS, does that count as non-Ubuntu? Particularly since this is the one Linux that would property utilize all the firepower of Kaby Lake

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Blaskowicz]

Like those Unix-like environments where the prompt isn't set are so much more useful!
And when you use up arrow / down arrow to get the command line history, it should display garbage characters instead of actually working, so that users are forced to learn how to set their terminal character map or whatever it is.
And when you run graphical emacs (because the notepad clones are for dummies and none should be installed out of the box), it should be set so that home/end keys bring you to the beginning or end of the whole file, not the current line. That will teach how to set it up.
Mouse scroll wheel support is a waste of bytes, real mice have three buttons and that's it. Users should be required to recompile their apps with --enable-scrollwheel on a case by case basis.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Anonymous Coward]

But that's also just *you*, isn't it? The only thing I don't like about Gnome 3 is that removal of menu's and the automatic maximizing feature whenever you move a window too close to a border. But I do like the idea behind the 'create a new workspace on the fly'. If only the Gnome team support a global menu instead of hiding everything behind a few buttons, but many people do actually like to work with Gnome 3.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Shane_Optima]

I can't be bothered to stay abreast of all of these latest ham-fisted attempt to be the anti-Windows, but were their workspaces markedly better than KDE's Activities, which I believe predated GNOME 3 by years? Is there anything else that you've found particularly useful? These are genuine questions, but if my tone is scornful I'm sorry... it can't be helped. From what I've seen, the GNOME team just destroys shit, blatantly mocks you if your use case doesn't match their vision (see their response to people who didn't want their laptop to auto-suspend when the lid is closed), and then runs three times slower after their "streamlining" is completed. And then they complain that you aren't sending them more money to fund further destruction (see: gnome-screensaver.) KDE at least has the decency of making most of their "innovations" optional.

It appeared to me that both GNOME 3 and Unity made the bizarre, very Microsoft-like choice of pretending to be a cell phone. Which at least sort of makes sense in Microsoft's case because a few people actually own Windows phones and there is an argument (not one I have much sympathy with, but it does exist) for unifying the UI. But virtually no one is using GNOME or Unity on a phone or daily-driver tablet.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Blaskowicz]

MATE and Xfce are moving to GTK3, however slowly.
gnome-disks is commonly included, it allows to add /etc/fstab entries with UUID by clicking around. Which is very helpful, although explaining what's a fstab UUID entry to your mother-in-law or auntie is left as an exercise for the reader.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mouse scroll wheel support is a waste of bytes, real mice have three buttons and that's it.

Three buttons? Luxury! Real mice make you use the Emulate3Buttons option to simulate the third button!

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[donaldm]

MATE and Xfce are moving to GTK3, however slowly. gnome-disks is commonly included, it allows to add /etc/fstab entries with UUID by clicking around. Which is very helpful, although explaining what's a fstab UUID entry to your mother-in-law or auntie is left as an exercise for the reader.

Well, you could be trying to explain the Registry to a Windows user. :-)

Linux has had graphics tools for years that hides the underlying text files from the noninquisitive user. Even Unix systems have similar tools and it's even more interesting maintaining AIX which uses a database.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Recently I bought an HP Spectre 13 (i7, 8GB RAM, 256 GB SSD) and installed Xubuntu Linux 16.04 LTS after shrinking the Microsoft Windows 10 partition. The only reason I kept the Microsoft Windows partition is due to my return to college in a few months and I am not sure what applications we might be required to use. If everything is available for GNU/Linux, then I will reinstall Xubuntu Linux to take over the entire SSD. I had been considering an Apple Macbook Air or Dell XPS 13 in addition to the HP Spectre 13.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Grishnakh]

MATE and Xfce are moving to GTK3, however slowly.

MATE is a fork of Gnome2, which uses Gtk2, so it makes sense that they'd want to move to a newer and still-maintained toolkit. However it may or may not happen; Gtk3 is notorious for bad maintenance, as it's developed and maintained by the Gnome3 devs, and basically they do whatever they want with it, without any regard whatsoever for other projects using it, backwards compatibility, or anything. LXDE ended up converting from Gtk to Qt for this and other reasons. These days, Qt is really the smart choice; it's well-maintained, it does a lot more than just graphics, it's well-designed and easy to develop with, and it's faster than Gtk too despite being C++-based.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[dbIII]

Maybe it's just an easy way to get more up-to-date apps if you're too impatient for something like Gentoo or Arch

Nailed it.
After all the applications are the reason you are using the computer.
The guy on a recent fedora at work wanted the new version of gimp the week it came out and that was the easiest way to get it to run.


After a while any distro will run just about anything of course.
If the program is well written FreeBSD and macs will be able to run it eventually as well.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[dbIII]

MATE and Xfce are moving to GTK3, however slowly.

Bugger.
GTK3 is why all those idiots are saying that X doesn't work well remotely.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mate 1.14 on Debian uses GTK3.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate Linux.

Can i get one with FreeBSD?

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Shane_Optima]

So why *do* so many people use Gnome? As you said elsewhere, it's not as much as it was 10 years ago but still... I feel like they should be a niche player by now, but they're very much not. Does being Red Hat's default really carry *that* much weight? And why does RHAT support a desktop environment that's overtly hostile towards its users and (if what you say is true) third party devs as well?

I've heard nothing but good things about Qt too (even though I had the same initial assumptions about C++ vs. GTK's C), but GTK, too, seems to have already garnered too much momentum to stop. I just don't quite get how so much momentum can exist in an ecosystem where the alternatives are all free and they're all just single apt-get install (or yum equiv) away. I understand laziness, but surely when Gnome 3 rolled around the lazy option was to go KDE or XFCE and never look back?

I know I've said this like 4 times already in this thread but it's been bugging me for a long time now and I've yet to hear a plausible explanation, or really any explanation not resting entirely on the might of RHAT.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Humans are apes.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Shane_Optima]

Fedora is a very upstream distribution, and also does very little modification to the bundled software.

Like Debian, Gentoo or Arch? Maybe I'm misinformed but I thought Ubuntu was the only one well known for that sort of thing.

I just realized I overlooked Debian's rebrandings due to FOSS concerns. But I think at least some of those issues were ironed out--or at least, firefox-esr has recently replaced iceweasel.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Grishnakh]

I don't have a good explanation, just my own extremely biased view.

First, people are sheep, and RHAT is the 800lb gorilla of FOSS, especially in the US, so a lot of people just seem to go with them. RHAT is a US company, so they seem to be more popular in that country, along with their distro Fedora. Fedora features Gnome3, so people just use that.

Also, from what I've read, when you suggest that people switch to KDE, they have two main excuses here: 1) KDE4.0 was a disaster, so they'll never go back, or 2) KDE has too many choices, and they want something they don't have to configure. Gnome3 doesn't have any configuration, so this mindset works well with people like that. (Yes, you'd think those people would be Apple fans, but apparently that mentality is very prevalent in the FOSS world these days too.) If there's something they want to change, they just download a tweak, even though these break every time Gnome gets updated, but they don't seem to mind that. Also, there's 3) they think KDE is ugly for some reason.

No, none of it really makes any sense to me either. I wish I could give you a better explanation, but I suspect there's a lot of psychology involved.

Finally, the thing about C++ being significantly slower than C isn't really true these days any more. C still has a place for low-level coding where you need more determinism, but you can do this with C++ too by disabling some features (namely exceptions) and restricting yourself to a subset of the language, as is done with avionics (yes, safety-critical avionics code is written in C++ these days).

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Zontar The Mindless]

It's silly to demand that a Linux distro hide what makes it Linux and not just another Fisher-Price thingy pasted on the screen.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Fruit]

They also have extended the dpkg system with PPAs which (last time I checked) Debian did not support out of the box.

PPAs are basically just extra entries in /etc/apt/sources.list. That's a Debian feature, not an Ubuntu one. I certainly do appreciate the fact that Canonical offers easy and free hosting for personal repositories, but saying that Debian doesn't support PPAs is a bit weird.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[bingoUV]

CentOS ends up being supported for 7-10 years. Redhat does/collects most of the work for that, and even links to CentOS from Redhat website.

Duration of support is the reason by very ignorant people to use Ubuntu over Redhat family.

Fedora is not remotely comparable.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[bingoUV]

Gnome has a long history of accessibility - even 10 years ago it was quite usable by blind people. It is completely clear why it is the default DE for so many distributions. If you're not blind, you can switch to another DE, but if you are, the default should be good for you.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[bingoUV]

Look at the accessibility history of non-Gnome DEs. Download a 10 years old Gnome release and use it as a blind user, and marvel at the accessibility being better than today's releases on other DEs.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Shane_Optima]

A Gnome 2 release? Sure. But that wasn't the question. Even then, I'm not sure a Gnome 2 release from 10 years ago would be in any way better than today's XFCE4. Vintage Nautilus might be better than today's Thunar, but other than that I think XFCE4 would win out.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Shane_Optima]

Wait a second you said as a BLIND user. I just got that. I thought you meant metaphorical.

Nevermind then, carry on.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Shane_Optima]

Debian dependencies are not always the same as Ubuntu dependencies. (I've recently did a comparison with my default install and multiple packages had different names, for instance.) Yes, with enough luck or hackery everything Ubuntu will work on Debian (or vice versa) but Ubuntu offers the hosting (as you point out), and implementing the add ppa command, and the ppa being presumably configured for usage with Ubuntu's repos (although maybe you could host a Debian PPA on Ubuntu servers? But I've never seen one advertised), makes ppa usage easy and reliable on Ubuntu specifically.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Shane_Optima]

CentOS / Red Hat Enterprise is quite different, yes. But it also isn't nearly as popular as Fedora, the last time I checked. I was talking about the more popular Fedora product specifically, though I guess I didn't make that clear.

However, "Red Hat's desktop product" should have been clear enough. I was specifically addressing the actions and motives of Red Hat and the CentOS rebranding is most certainly not something Red Hat directly supports or encourages. But that's not to say it isn't stable or that it doesn't receive security updates.

As for ignorance, well, I suspect there are a host of reasons for not choosing CentOS, starting with the aforementioned fact that the company that does all of the legwork for it pretty much hates its existence.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Shane_Optima]

On closer inspection, it appears RHAT hates them slightly less nowadays. The last time I tinkered with them there were still references to the 'prominent north american' somethingoranother (RHAT's lawyers didn't want them using Red Hat's name in any fashion).

Still, it isn't a Red Hat product. Fedora is more popular and was the topic at hand.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Shane_Optima]

Or, on even further reading, maybe at this point it is officially a RHAT product but not a "Red Hat" product. I really can't be bothered. The implied subject was Fedora.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Ol Olsoc]

It's silly to demand that a Linux distro hide what makes it Linux and not just another Fisher-Price thingy pasted on the screen.

But there isn't just one way to run Linux. That's the joyful part. I spend much time bashing around. Others can pretty much stick with the repos, and use the GUI.

So I have what I might want, and my wife has what she wants. And if I'm using a desktop type program, I'll use the GUI as well. Wishing it back to command line days isn't going to happen, and we all have the choice of how we want to work. That's a win in my book.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[bingoUV]

The original implied subject was "not Ubuntu". Just because layer ignorant people translated it to RedHat, Suse etc. doesn't mean Fedora becomes a candidate for someone seeking stability. Only extremely ignorant people think Fedora and Ubuntu LTS are comparable enough to be thought of as alternative for the same user.

All the arguments being raised for Ubuntu apply even more to CentOS :
1. You have problems with RedHat, but reject CentOS because it is not RedHat ? You excuse is relevance to the" implied subject ", but the implication is itself incorrect and ignorant from the original implied subject which was something other than Ubuntu.

2. Support life time is always greater than Ubuntu LTS.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[bingoUV]

s/layer/later/

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Shane_Optima]

I don't reject CentOS; I just meant that I can't be bothered to dissect their pros and cons and official status in relation to Red Hat. The fact is I have (briefly) used CentOS and they definitely were not a part of Red Hat when I tested it, and the post I was replying to mentioned Red Hat (not CentOS, which regardless of its new management structure does NOT appear to bear the Red Hat name or logo), and Fedora is more popular than CentOS, and the very first post in this conversational thread mentioned Fedora (and only Fedora) by name.

Satisfied? Yes, CentOS is a tangent worth exploring if support is of paramount importance (given the release schedule of other projects and my own personal tastes, I think 3-5 years is good enough while Fedora's window is clearly insufficient... but to each his own), but it wasn't what anyone here was talking about. Except you.

If you're blind and GNOME is the only thing you can use then godspeed. I'm glad they exist for your sake. For all us sighted people who have even an ounce of self-respect, it seems very much as though GNOME has been acting like Apple's inbred half-brother, a toxic combination of mediocre design with an actual sadistic glee they exhibit while mocking users when they complain about the simple features that GNOME devs have purposefully broke. And when they aren't being jovial about it, they're being passive aggressive twats: they whine for civility and complain that people aren't sending them money or patches after they intentionally broke screensavers (and then they tried to lie and backpedal on their apparent motives, implying that they were just being perfectionists and a fix would eventually arrive... and then a couple years later they decide to simply kill screensavers permanently.) They're sucking up the oxygen, leading noobs astray and disillusioning them with Linux, fragmenting the desktop way worse than it was 10 years ago and for reasons inconceivable other important DEs are still putting their eggs in their GTK 3 basket. Most of Red Hat's other recent big name projects have been similarly irritating, alarming or conducive to eye-rolling with the possible exception of Docker.

So, I suspect there would be plenty of reasons to dislike CentOS, if I tested it. I concede that you may have a solid point here, but it's not one that I have the time to confirm or refute, and it does not address the initial tangent wherein I was expressing puzzlement that someone would want to use Fedora, the everyday desktop distro that Red Hat is most associated with, the distro that the original poster mentioned BY NAME, the distro that's currently more popular than CentOS.

Fedora is leading in no area that I can discern. The best I can figure is it's a lazy option for people who want slightly more up to date apps but hate non-LTS Ubuntu and can't be bothered with any of the fancier distros, or it's an option for people who are familiar with Red Hat Enterprise (or CentOS) through their job. Or it's the legacy/momentum option for people who've been with them for 10+ years. Or perhaps Red Hat seems cooler than "dumbed down" Ubuntu... which would just be sad.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[bingoUV]

I don't reject CentOS

You do exclude it from the discussion by saying " Still, it isn't a Red Hat product. Fedora is more popular and was the topic at hand.".

and the very first post in this conversational thread mentioned Fedora (and only Fedora) by name.

Yes, and as a reply to that, someone introduced Ubuntu and Suse. You didn't tell them no one is talking about Ubuntu and Suse except them. All the advantages of Ubuntu that you (and some others) mentioned are more than applicable to CentOS - in that sense it is a more valid "tangent" than Ubuntu itself is to the topic if the topic be defined like you are defining : "Fedora".

If you're blind and GNOME is the only thing you can use then godspeed ..... .Gnome..... ..... .

I have been informing people professing ignorance of the reason why Gnome continues to be the default in many distributions. Including you. I am not sure why you have not understood why Gnome is the default in so many distributions, but I can only lead the horse to water.

Fedora is leading in no area that I can discern. The best I can figure is it's a lazy option for people who want slightly more up to date apps but hate non-LTS Ubuntu and can't be bothered with any of the fancier distros

Needing/wanting more up to date software is enough to choose Fedora over Ubuntu. Hating non-LTS Ubuntu is not necessary because Fedora is typically quite far ahead of non-LTS Ubuntu. "Can't be bothered with any of the fancier distros" may or may not be necessary, given that Fedora is indistinguishable from the fancier distributions in the quickness of software downstreaming.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Shane_Optima]

I have been informing people professing ignorance of the reason why Gnome continues to be the default in many distributions.

Is there some blindness epidemic I am unaware of? I didn't realize accessibility was the kingmaker in desktop Linux. If so, that's a bit crazy. Braille menus are available "on request" at McDonalds. They aren't the default. Neither were stickykeys in Windows.

Needing/wanting more up to date software is enough to choose Fedora over Ubuntu.

That alone is not a very compelling reason. You aren't gaining much over the latest non-LTS Ubuntu, and if you're perpetually in need of the cutting edge there are rolling release distros that would be a better fit than Fedora. PPAs offer another easy Ubuntu-hosted channel for obtaining more up to date software even if you're on an LTS release.

You do exclude it from the discussion by saying " Still, it isn't a Red Hat product. Fedora is more popular and was the topic at hand.".

I think Alpine linux is interesting. I demand you stop whatever tangent you're on right now and start talking about Alpine linux. If you decline to immediately stop what you're doing, research Alpine, and write up a dissertation on it then you are unfairly excluding it.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Shane_Optima]

Re: availability of software in the distros I suppose it depends on what packages you care about. Fedora may well lead the industry in rapid-fire upgrades of GNOME and Poetteringware, but these are things I tend to not notice.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[bingoUV]

Is there some blindness epidemic I am unaware of? I didn't realize accessibility was the kingmaker in desktop Linux. If so, that's a bit crazy.

Are section 508 and/or ADA law, allied state laws due to some blindness epidemic 300 million Americans are unaware of? If yes, same explains Linux desktop policy. If not, the laws, their impacts, and the professed intent behind them explain the Linux desktop policy. That was not too difficult, was it ?

Nature of a business decides how much such laws impact them - purely consumer businesses like McDonald's are impacted by such laws differently than Linux distributions which might advertise themselves as a drop-in solution for businesses that may or may not wish to receive governmental contracts. McDonald's may not want to host government dinners, Linux distributions might want to be useful at customer end to businesses needing government contracts. McDonald's staff might be trained to recognize symptoms of blindness and produce braille menu or ask a preference, in which braille menu becomes the "default" menu for relevant customers, Linux distribution user businesses may not want to do that.

Think before posting.

Needing/wanting more up to date software is enough to choose Fedora over Ubuntu

That alone is not a very compelling reason. You aren't gaining much over the latest non-LTS Ubuntu, and if you're perpetually in need of the cutting edge there are rolling release distros that would be a better fit than Fedora. PPAs offer another easy Ubuntu-hosted channel for obtaining more up to date software even if you're on an LTS release.

Read before posting.

I think Alpine linux is interesting. I demand you stop whatever tangent you're on right now and start talking about Alpine linux. If you decline to immediately stop what you're doing, research Alpine, and write up a dissertation on it then you are unfairly excluding it.

Only if I insinuate Alpine is irrelevant to the discussion.

Understand before posting.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[bingoUV]

That is great. I hope a lot of the work of the good folks at Fedora is available for your use in spite of this.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Fruit]

We host an apt repository with a few packages for a bunch of debian and ubuntu releases. Of course you have to target the right dependency set, but that's true even when you target a specific version of either OS.

I was just miffed by the remark that Debian would not support PPAs, when in fact the whole technical groundwork is actually Debian's and all Ubuntu did was build a thin command interface over it and suddenly gets credited for the whole invention.

Re: What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Shane_Optima]

And maybe you'll enjoy the changes that Red Hat sponsored devs (and in particular the GNOME devs) are eventually forced to adopt as their products continue to decline in popularity and their insane ambitions to become the next Apple through treating their users like dirt is realized to be harmful for business.

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Give Poettering and crew a year or two more and there will be scant differences between the distros anyways...

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[Anonymous Coward]

More like Fedora is the dev platform for some of the largets projects in the ecosystem.

Is where all the real decisions are made, not at Gnome or Freedesktop. Those just rubberstamp what the Hatters come up with for Fedora and thus make it "suggested" for other distros (aka, adopt it or expect to spend the equivalent of RH on reimplementing the stack).

Re:What if I am an Ubuntu hater, too?

[armanox]

Motif and TCL/TK work great remotely.

Ubuntu is a poor choice to demo.

[Hylandr]

Try Korora Linux instead.

Debian/Ubuntu slow, Fedora/Centos Fast.

Re:Ubuntu is a poor choice to demo.

[Anonymous Coward]

Fedora/Centos crash fast too.

Re:Ubuntu is a poor choice to demo.

[Hylandr]

I have experienced more failures with Ubuntu than I have with Centos / Fedora.

Fedora works well out of the box even if some versions weren't the most polished. With Ubuntu I spent too many hours getting drivers to work for damn near everything.

Stupid 16:9

[Stormwatch]

3200 x 1800 is still 16:9, which is shortscreen bullshit. Fuck that. Why can't they give us a good 4:3 screen, the way good screens are supposed to be?

It's depressing, the only laptops with decent screens now seem to be Microsoft's Surface line and some Panasonic Toughbook models.

Re:Stupid 16:9

[wierd_w]

16:9 isn't so bad.

It at least can display 4:3 content, if the resolution is high enough.
A 4:3 display trying to display widescreen 16:9 on the other hand, often results in crushed vertical resolution because it has to scale the horizontal to fit the smaller screen.

What I want to see, is screen resolutions that are better than a stupid assed TV panel. We had higher screen resolutions on CRTs in the 90s than we do today.

Re:Stupid 16:9

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you feel about 16:10?

Re:Stupid 16:9

[blackomegax]

4:3 screens were largely limited to 1024x768, with some outliers in the 5:4 ratio of 1280x1024. The highest 4:3 ever *really* got was 1600x1200, which 3200x1800 handily beats.

Re:Stupid 16:9

[cdrudge]

It's depressing, the only laptops with decent screens now seem to be Microsoft's Surface line and some Panasonic Toughbook models.

No Surface model has ever had a 4:3 aspect ratio. First 2 generations were 16:9 and subsequent have been 3:2. Only two current models of Toughbook do, both are 1024x768. Yuck. I haven't seen that resolution, let alone a desire for it, in a new machine/display in over a decade.

Re:Stupid 16:9

[Shinobi]

For 4:3 there were 1600x1200 screens. What I want is something in the 5:4 ratio, like 2500x2000

Re:Stupid 16:9

[ytene]

Love it. Currently sat in front of a triple set of Dell 2415s... Narrow bezels, good connectivity, low power, excellent dynamic range, low latency. What's not to like?

Re:Stupid 16:9

[Anonymous Coward]

Can Ubuntu even support that resolution yet?

Also, you can still purchase external monitors in 4:3... people have adapted and it seems that 16:9 is here to stay. At high resolutions like that, why would anyone want any other ratio besides maybe 16:10? And if the latter, you can always opt for a Mac...

Re:Stupid 16:9

[DRJlaw]

Why can't they give us a good 4:3 screen, the way good screens are supposed to be?

And a hercules Graphics Card, the way green-phosphored monochrome computer screens are supposed to be!

Re:Stupid 16:9

[ukoda]

It is running Linux so no problems. Laser cut a stencil with a 4:3 aspect ratio and stick it to the screen then reconfigure the display to only use the remain visible pixel. As a bonus you will get that Apple look border instead of that Dell edge to edge display.

Problem solved!

Re:Stupid 16:9

[Anonymous Coward]

Because I would rather have more columns than rows? Fuck off you ignorant cut.

Re:Stupid 16:9

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember back in the early 90's when 4:3 was all the rage

Re:Stupid 16:9

[lgw]

How do you feel about 16:10?

16:10 is the one true aspect ratio! To me, it's the ideal tradeoff for everything I want to use a monitor for. 4:3 is too narrow for IDEs, 16:9 not tall enough, both 4:3 and 16:9 videos (and games!) look fine on a 16:10 monitor. Can't be beat!

Re:Stupid 16:9

[danbob999]

16:10 and 16:9 are so similar that you can't love one and hate the other.

Re:Stupid 16:9

[Anonymous Coward]

Only a complete blasphemer would use a green phosphor with a Hercules card. They are supposed to be amber!

Re:Stupid 16:9

[Noughmad]

I can, and I do.

Re:Stupid 16:9

[Anonymous Coward]

Same here, except for me I love 16:9 and hate 16:10. I want my widescreen so I can have two full sized windows next to each other and in game I can have immersion.

16:10 comes up a little short. 4:3 is primitive fail.

Re:Stupid 16:9

[Blaskowicz]

A 1920x1920 desktop monitor exists, although highly priced. (from Eizo, monitor brand specialized in four-figure prices)

Re:Stupid 16:9

[Blaskowicz]

I agree it's a bit bad, but 3200x1800 is a very decent resolution. If you use 200% scaling (which I believe sums up what Cinnamon, Ubuntu, Gnome can do with HiDPI) then you get a shiny 1600x900 equivalent, which gives decent room for stuff. If you have to use software which really doesn't work with the scaling, use physical 1600x900 resolution instead.

To paraphrase someone's sig
Slashdot logic : 1440x900 is better than 1600x900

Re:Stupid 16:9

[Anonymous Coward]

both amber and green are gimmicks*, for people to accept chemically inferior phosphors that are easy to deposit.

true grey has fundamentally better contrast, better response, and is more pleasing to look at.

heathens!

*Claims that these colors improve productivity by reducing eyestrain have never been substantiated, while phosphors composed of single rare earths (green) or two rare earths (amber) are demonstrably less expensive to manufacture than those made of three rare earths (grey). It isnt hard to understand what the real reason for producing large quantites of these cheaper and inferior displays was!

Re:Stupid 16:9

[ProzacPatient]

I've had the same 16:10 display for years and I love it; the extra vertical space is especially great for Visual Studio. Unfortunately 16:10 is rather difficult to come by, last I checked, so I've yet to update to something newer and fancier.

Re:Stupid 16:9

[Anonymous Coward]

1998 called and, she wants her 2048x1536 back.

Re:Stupid 16:9

[Stormwatch]

Yes, I know the Surface is 3:2, which is pretty close to 4:3.

Now, come to think about it... there are other tablet PCs with 4:3 or 3:2 screens. For example, the Teclast X98 and Onda V919 lines use a 9.7" QXGA (2048x1536), while Xiaomi's MiPad line uses a 7.9" at QXGA. Add kb+m and they're sorta-almost complete PCs.

Re:Stupid 16:9

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess you don't know how to run things in fixed-aspect ratio or you would just get one of the many inexpensive 4K displays around now.

Re:Stupid 16:9

[Anonymous Coward]

the only laptops with decent screens now seem to be Microsoft's Surface line and some Panasonic Toughbook

and the Google Pixel 2015 LS, which was designed to run a Linux, and provides (most of the) source for BIOS and embedded controller.

Re:Stupid 16:9

[Anonymous Coward]

It's all crap compared to paperwhite VGA.

Re:Stupid 16:9

[Anonymous Coward]

3:2 desktop monitors would be too awesome for words, but lack the marketing punch of "HD" and the inflated measurement on the diagonal for what you actually get of 16:9.

Re:Stupid 16:9

[Anonymous Coward]

I can, and I do.

Amen.

Re:Stupid 16:9

[ytene]

I didn't say that I hated 16:9 screens. For me the issue isn't so much ration as resolution and pixels. I take a lot of digital photographs, so having the extra 120 pixels in the vertical just gives me more space to work with. In a perfect world I'd go even bigger - I like the idea of something like the Apple 27" display, but am constrained by space. I'm lucky that the Dell's just happen to fit my workspace.

But it's a completely irrelevant debate anyway - for as long as the manufacturers continue to provide us with the choice between the two. As long as you can find and buy the display you need and want, let's just be thankful for the choices. After all, we don't have to look that far back for times when a colour screen was a bonus; and anything with more than 800x600 pixels was more likely to be a case of someone lying to you than actual technology.

The fact that we're here at all, with flat screens, amazing dynamic range, subtle colours, bonkers refresh rates... Let's just enjoy what we've got, eh?

Re:Stupid 16:9

[Noughmad]

I think it depends on how big the screens are. If you have a really big screen (like 30''), then I would imagine that wider is better. If not, those extra pixels at the bottom count more.

Also, the common choise is between 1920x1080 and 1920x1200. If those are your only choices, you get extra pixels at the bottom almost for free, they are only slightly smaller at the same diagonal. Again, with bigger screens and bigger resolutions I would imagine this matters less and width matters more.

wrong buzz word slashdot

[nimbius]

A hater is a person that simply cannot be happy for another person's success. I as well as many other slashdotters have legitimate substantiated grievances with the business practices and technical decisions made by Microsoft. Quit trying to marginalize dissent in the ranks of your advertising audience.

Re:wrong buzz word slashdot

[sexconker]

A hater is one who hates. Reasoning doesn't play into it.

Re:wrong buzz word slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

No, this time the headline is spot on.

Re:wrong buzz word slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

So, every single person alive, then.

try again.

Re:wrong buzz word slashdot

[chispito]

I as well as many other slashdotters have legitimate substantiated grievances with the business practices and technical decisions made by Microsoft. Quit trying to marginalize dissent in the ranks of your advertising audience.

So wait, are you the Judean People's Front or the People's Front of Judea?

Re:wrong buzz word slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Hater mostly seems to mean someone who tells you something you don't want to hear. Could be something really hateful like racism, or just realistic advice. Like when I read about a guy who had tried suing everyone and failed get called a hater for telling a woman her lawsuits probably wouldn't work, either.

I can't not read that as "Baby Kale"

[Sowelu]

which means...yum, delicious baby kale chips.

Re:I can't not read that as "Baby Kale"

[sexconker]

Kale is a trash crop. I can't wait for the fad to die. Then again, it'll likely be replaced with something equally as obnoxious and awful. Remember flaxseed? Remember quinoa? Remember acai? These are some bad member berries.

Re:I can't not read that as "Baby Kale"

[PRMan]

Acai isn't bad, but the rest are absolutely inedible.

Re:I can't not read that as "Baby Kale"

[avandesande]

collard greens provide pretty much the same nutrition without tasting like a green bottle brush

Re:I can't not read that as "Baby Kale"

[nightsweat]

Quinoa is pretty fricking mainstream. You might as well say "remember oats? Remember burrios?"

Re:I can't not read that as "Baby Kale"

[sexconker]

Quinoa had a disgusting rise in popularity recently. Not sure what caused the fad. Did some quack claim it was a "super food"?

Re:I can't not read that as "Baby Kale"

[sexconker]

Acai isn't bad, but it's not good either. The wave of popularity it rode was entirely manufactured and undeserved. The marketing push was obnoxious.

Re:I can't not read that as "Baby Kale"

[Anonymous Coward]

... you do realize the entire world isn't isolated to watching and reading only the same things you do? That your little bubble extends little farther than the cloud of neckbeard stench you emit?

Re: I can't not read that as "Baby Kale"

[Anonymous Coward]

How do these chips compare to Frito Lay BBQ?

Re:I can't not read that as "Baby Kale"

[Anonymous Coward]

It became popular with hipsters simply because it's hard to pronounce. Therefore eating it must make them special and "edgy".

Captcha: starve

Re:I can't not read that as "Baby Kale"

[dbIII]

Crumb and deep fry just about anything and it tastes good.

Re:I can't not read that as "Baby Kale"

[ChunderDownunder]

Well I live in the most self-consciously hipster city in the Southern Hemisphere. Quinoa displaced the humble cous cous or chickpea salad some time ago in cafes where smashed avocado on sourdough is all the rage.

Re:I can't not read that as "Baby Kale"

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not eating quinoa.

Not until people stop mispronouncing it. It's obviously supposed to be pronounced kwin-oh-uh, not farking keen-wah. How the fuck do these idiots get keen-wah out of those letters? The letters qu put together have a sound. That sound is not the K sound. And where the fuck do they get the "wah" at the end? From "oa"? No. Those letters don't make that sound.

The word is offensive to English.

Re:I can't not read that as "Baby Kale"

[drumlight]

The letters qu put together have a sound. That sound is not the K sound.

This is my excuse for being late when I was unable to able to find the Queens Key address I'd been given on the phone at 8AM. Nothing to do with me being a simple moron at that time of the day.

Dell Linux Laptops

[Anonymous Coward]

From what i saw of the selection so far on Dell's site they only had Intel graphics cards. I think I'd want to get something from System 76 or other vendor that actually lets you get Linux laptops with Nvidia cards or something.

Re:Dell Linux Laptops

[sexconker]

You could get an external GPU. No, it won't be portable, but it'll work.

Re:Dell Linux Laptops

[fph il quozientatore]

And it will cost an arm and a leg...

Re:Dell Linux Laptops

[Anonymous Coward]

Twor words: Mobile workstations. From Dell, HP etc ... Linux-tested.

Re:Dell Linux Laptops

[Anonymous Coward]

Twor words: Mobile workstations. From Dell, HP etc ... Linux-tested.

Hehe "Twor". I mean "Two". There is no editing feature for AC like me.

Re:Dell Linux Laptops

[unixisc]

On Kaby Lake, Intel's graphics has supposedly caught up w/ NVIDIA. Not to mention, Intel doesn't have the issues that both NVIDIA and AMD have wrt FOSS drivers - where NVIDIA's is proprietary, while AMD's is FOSS but inadequate

Mint Linux Cinnamon 64 bit.

[MindPrison]

Thats what I used 2 years before I was forced to go to Windows 10 because of my Virtual Reality Setup Htc Vive with GeForce 1070 Gtx.

And Windows 10, unlike mint linux, sucked from day one by not even having drivers for the network card of a perfectly brand new motherboard, gave me several blue screens with the wonderful QR code smiley during the 2 weeks, screwed up the drivers so the HTC vive froze, untill I screamed so loud at windows support that they sneakily exported 369.09 Nvidia drivers trough the Control Panel update (not the regular update) even before that driver was available on the Nvidia site...

And of course denied denied and denied.

I cant wait untill Valve have drivers for the HTC vive on their Steam Os...ack...I mean Linux...so...I can DITCH this horrible experience called windows.

You can always roll your own with the motherboard

[WillAffleckUW]

If there are laptop Linux boards, then you can always roll your own distro, since the drivers will pretty much work and be supported (just don't tell them you did that)

People will always complain that the Model T only comes in black. Grab a spray paint robot and do it yourself.

Advertising?

[Chmarr]

Aren't articles like this supposed to have a brown title bar, or something? I'm confoozed.

Re:Advertising?

[samwichse]

Just because it's a product, on Slashdot, doesn't mean it's an advertisement.

Someone finally making an ultraportable with solid Linux support out of the box (and the hardware IS different from the Windows version, for example the wifi card they swapped has excellent open source driver support) is certainly relevant to MY interests.

Sam

Fuck Ubuntu

[Anonymous Coward]

Ubuntu is the Windows 10 of Linux (seriously it does the same spyware bullshit that win10 does).

Re:Fuck Ubuntu

[Anonymous Coward]

No it doesn't. Even if it did it's open source so anyone could see exactly what it did and get rid of it. Where is the source code for Windows 10?

Don't try to compare closed source to open source for security/privacy concerns, because you'll lose and you'll look like a complete idiot while losing.

Trump!

[Anonymous Coward]

If this weren't an election year, "Linux Lovers" would have been more appropriate.

Unicode haters: try Slashdot!

[sootman]

"Your OS of your choice can finally work on laptops with Intelâ(TM)s Kaby Lake chips."

*sigh*

Re:You can always roll your own with the motherboa

[PRMan]

Can't you just but the Windows 10 model and put whatever Linux you want on it? Or do they lock that down now?

Newer intel chips support sucks in linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I have Broadwell (aka 5th core generation) and it sucks. Latest ubuntu comes with 4.4 kernel which is very lacking in terms of graphics driver support.

Re: Newer intel chips support sucks in linux

[Billly Gates]

If this is certified to run Linux you can bet the drivers will be included on the system which is why it is $150 more than the win 10 version.

The other distros will get the drivers soon too as Intel is Foss friendly. Problem is the users want a solid distribution so the kernel and software maybe slightly older

What's The Difference Between The Two?

[bheerssen]

What makes the difference between the XPS DE and the regular XPS, aside from the OS? Why wouldn't I want to order the cheaper model and just ditch Windows in favor of my favorite distro?

Re:What's The Difference Between The Two?

[ukoda]

It uses different chipset parts for some functions, WiFi from memory, to ensure there will be no driver problems. First laptop I have owned where Linux installed with every device working 100% at first boot. No more detective work and long hunts for drivers etc. Also you don't have to pell off all those Windows stickers that are present on the other laptops. Just wish they had changed the keyboard to get rid of the Windows meta key but a sticker fixed that.

Re:What's The Difference Between The Two?

[bheerssen]

Thanks! That's the answer I was hoping for.

> Also you don't have to pell off all those Windows stickers that are present on the other laptops. Just wish they had changed the keyboard to get rid of the Windows meta key but a sticker fixed that.

I do that, too! Here's my current setup. Ne'er an OEM sticker to be found aside from the important ones on the bottom of the chassis, though I still need a sticker for the meta key and something to cover the Dell logo.

It's a decidedly middle-of-the-road Inspiron; I can only lust for an XPS at this point. Being designed for Windows, it has had its share of problems, though nothing I can't solve or work around. The most serious of which is an annoying screen flicker with the latest kernels (4.5 and newer) that I've yet to find a solution for. Until I figure that out I'm sticking with 4.4 kernels.

Re:What's The Difference Between The Two?

[Leslie43]

How does your battery life compare to the Windows version, Linux (unfortunately) almost always takes a hit on this. My x220, even with every trick I could find, still lost 10-20%, by contrast, while I'm still tweaking it, my Macbook Air loses 60% (ouch).

Re:What's The Difference Between The Two?

[ukoda]

I haven't needed to run it for a long time under battery yet so can't give a meaningful answer to that question. The USB Type-C is cool, I am keen to get a charger for that port and try it.

You don't have to be a Windows 10 hater...

[QuietLagoon]

... to like Linux.

Re:You don't have to be a Windows 10 hater...

[Anonymous Coward]

As opposed to the two types of Windows users: The people tied to the platform by software that will not under any circumstances be ported or can be handily replaced, and the fearful drooling idiot kind who thinks the computer breaks if it doesn't run Windows or you try to run software not branded "Microsoft".

Re:You don't have to be a Windows 10 hater...

[samwichse]

Windows 7/8 don't (and won't) have full support for Kaby Lake.

So your only option for Kaby Lake-based systems aside from Windows 10 is... Linux.

the title

[jarkus4]

The title made me immediately think: "so that you stop hating win10 by comparison". Somehow it doesnt sound like a recommendation to me.

Opinions XPS 13 9350 with Ubuntu 16.04

[Anonymous Coward]

Even though I'm running Ubuntu 16.04 on my XPS 13, I purchased the Win 10 version and installed Ubuntu myself because it was cheaper and available with newer CPUs, figuring that Dell and the Linux community would continue improving Linux support for the XPS 13. I've been right so far.

Note, however, that the hardware is not necessarily the same. Notably the WiFi board on the Win10 and Ubuntu versions are different for the XPS 13 9350 (Broadcom vs Intel). It took a week or two for kernel 4.6 to be released supporting the Broadcom chip. It's still a little buggy sometimes. Also Dell's USB-C to HDMI-VGA-Ethernet-USB dongle is a DisplayLink thing that doesn't work on Ubuntu last I checked. Look for USB-C to HDMI adapters that support Chromebooks and ChromeOS for better Linux compatibility. The touchscreen driver doesn't resume properly when opening the lid after sleep but there's an open-shut-open workaround procedure that's not too bad.

Again, although I got the Win10 version of the XPS 13, Windows 10 was gone within two weeks. Project Sputnik and the Developer Edition were the main reason I didn't consider any alternatives to the XPS 13. I'm not confident that any other major manufacturer besides Dell is making sure Linux desktop runs properly on the latest hardware.

14.04

[Anonymous Coward]

It says right on the dell page that 14.04 is installed.

The XPS 13 Developer Edition combines the performance and mobility of the XPS 13 with Ubuntu 14.04 LTS to create a client-to-cloud solution for developers.

Running from Win 10. Linux still fails

[Anonymous Coward]

Tried new build with Mint 18 recently, with attempt to game.
Steam install failed from pkg manager. ~ 30 mins research & obscure (for a n00b) shell command to fix it.
Runescape install failed from pkg manager w/no feedback. Found shell install cmd which returned error. ~ 2.5 hours research & manual libglew(?) download to fix it.

After years of Linux desktop, this is where it's at? :-(
Still using it. MS is finally forcing me.

so if you have to hate windows 10...

[dejitaru]

...to like linux, and windows 10 now includes linux bash shell in windows 10... does that mean windows 10 hates windows 10? If so, then I think Cortana might have become self-aware and reached AI levels of humans to learning the gift of self-hatred...

Re:so if you have to hate windows 10...

[waspleg]

Step 1.) Embrace - "Now you can run bash in windows!!"

Step 2.) Extend - "But why would you want to with powershell!!"

Step 3 is left as an exercise in learning history to any read under, say, 25 years old.

Re:so if you have to hate windows 10...

[dejitaru]

I don't think we have to worry about Microsoft extinguishing anything considering they seem to be unable to consistently embrace things nowadays.

Re:so if you have to hate windows 10...

[JustNiz]

The fact that we're even reading a post about "great news a laoptop from a major supplier that can actually run linux!" in the first place suggests that "embracing" is an already conquered problem.

Re:so if you have to hate windows 10...

[dejitaru]

old news though... https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

How can hardware with expensive OS cost less?

[Anonymous Coward]

How can hardware with expensive OS cost less than one with free OS?

Re:How can hardware with expensive OS cost less?

[Ungrounded Lightning]

How can hardware with expensive OS cost less than one with free OS?

1. Economy of scale: They sell more of them to the vast population of Windows-only suckers and can distribute the fixed costs over more units, lowering that cost per-unit.
2. Bloatware: Companies pay them to include their products in the install. The money from that can be split between boosting the manufacturer's bottom line and lowering the consumer's price.
3. Different (possibly more expensive - especially in small volumes) peripheral hardware.
4. PROFIT!

Re:How can hardware with expensive OS cost less?

[greenfruitsalad]

run 'lspci' and you'll see it's not the same hardware.

Shame it appears to be US only

[ukoda]

The XPS13 is a fine PC, I installed Mint 18 on it with zero hassle and everything worked first time. I am very happy with now I have it but buying it was a major mission as from what I can see it is a US only product. I live in New Zealand where you can not order it from the NZ version of the Dell website. I had to get access to a USA issue credit card to pay for it and ship it to a USA based address. I real hassle. The funny thing is Dell know who pays for their products and who they ship it to but never bother to ask who is buying it or who the owner will be.

Bottom line is Dell are a PIA to deal with but have a first class product, way nicer that the Apple MBA it replaced.

Full HD sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who can't see the pixels and isn't annoyed by them lacks both class and taste. It's just ugly. Shame on Dell for releasing low end products that are unusable.

Re:You can always roll your own with the motherboa

[SeaFox]

Can't you just buy the Windows 10 model and put whatever Linux you want on it? Or do they lock that down now?

That's what I was wondering. Am I paying a $150 premium just for Dell "support" on the pre-installed Ubuntu (which I wouldn't even keep)?
I would assume all these "great driver contributions" would have been open source as well and available to other distros -- especially Ubuntu-based distros like Mint.

128GB SSD to small for the basic system

[Joe_Dragon]

128GB SSD to small for the basic system.

Also no ati or nvidia video in any system.

Re:128GB SSD to small for the basic system

[donaldm]

128GB SSD to small for the basic system.

Also no ati or nvidia video in any system.

For one or two (ie. dual boot) operating systems 128GB SSD'sare great and are not that much more in price than a 60GB SSD.

Anyone who has built their own desktop knows that you should always put the OS on an SSD (M2's are still SSD's) for the best performance and use an additional disk or disks for the rest of your data. The problem with many laptops is many come with only one disk so a hybrid is a compromise between performance and storage.

Of course, if you really want capacity and performance of your storage device you can always replace your 2.5" laptop disk with something like a 15TB SSD, cheap at only $10,000 USD :-)

Re:You can always roll your own with the motherboa

[jetkust]

Likely. A while back Dell sold Inspiron 3000 series laptops with Ubuntu installed. For whatever reason they stopped selling them on their website. I asked customer support if there was a difference with the Windows 10 version and he said no. So I bought the Windows version and installed Xubuntu.

But unless you actually want Windows 10 why not just get the Linux version if they offer it? Unless there is some unexpected discount, Windows 10 costs extra (I think $100 extra, but I could be wrong).

No thanks on the XPS13

[Anonymous Coward]

At my previous employer we had two die at around 1 year, conveniently when the warranty expired. On the other hand I've been using 14" Latitudes for several years with Linux Mint and no issues. My E6430u runs Mint 18 Cinnamon quite nicely. I have been watching The E7470 in the Dell Outlet and they are good deals when on sale (like right now). Good build quality, decent screen res, and 3 year warranty. Plus you can upgrade it yourself unlike the XPS13.

The only reason I haven't kicked down is that my new employer gave me a MBP, my wife has aE7440 for her work, and my two previous 14" Latitudes are running nicely. Don't need new hardware that badly.

Dude You're Getting A Dell!

[Anonymous Coward]

That guy was wise way beyond his years. The year of linux on desktop is finally here! *puff* *puff* *cough*

Re:Dude You're Getting A Dell!

[avandesande]

Truly it is the year of Linux on a desktop!

Re:Dude You're Getting A Dell!

[donaldm]

Truly it is the year of Linux on a desktop!

A laptop is not a desktop.

Re:Running from Win 10. Linux still fails

[armanox]

Try using a mainstream distribution then? Steam works perfect from Ubuntu (which is the Valve supported distribution) and Fedora.

Re:You can always roll your own with the motherboa

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't you just buy the Windows 10 model and put whatever Linux you want on it? Or do they lock that down now?

That's what I was wondering. Am I paying a $150 premium just for Dell "support" on the pre-installed Ubuntu (which I wouldn't even keep)?
I would assume all these "great driver contributions" would have been open source as well and available to other distros -- especially Ubuntu-based distros like Mint.

Of course you can. But the Linux-model is guaranteed to work with Linux because of the careful selection of hardware components. Maybe thats not true with the Windows counterpart (incompatible wifi cards etc).

they already worked

[Anonymous Coward]

My OS of choice has worked fine on every laptop I've owned dating back to at least 2001. And if I'd owned a laptop before that it probably would have then.

(minor exception, early 802.11b drivers...)

Fuck your slashvertisements, Dell.

Re:Running from Win 10. Linux still fails

[KlomDark]

How on Earth do you somehow believe that Mint is not a mainstream distribution?

Re:You can always roll your own with the motherboa

[ukoda]

You can try, but the Windows version has different hardware that has poor Linux support. It's not that the Windows version is made to lock out Linux but rather the parts are chosen for function/price with Windows and no consideration of Linux. To Dell's credit they went the extra step to rework it for Linux as the XPS DE series when few other manufacturers bother.

Re:Running from Win 10. Linux still fails

[lgw]

Because Steam and Runescape (people still play that?) failed to install on it? I have the same problem with VMware Workstation.

Ubuntu and RedHat are pretty much the main stream, which is a sad commentary of several sorts.

Ubuntu is *a* Linux distro, not Linux

[markdavis]

>"Attention Linux enthusiasts. Your OS of your choice can finally work on laptops with Intel's Kaby Lake chips.[...] available with Ubuntu OS"

Being a Linux enthusiast doesn't mean being an Ubuntu enthusiast.... despite Canonical's hopes/thoughts/dreams.

But it is still meaningful, if Ubuntu will work, then so will Mageia, Fedora, SuSe, Mint, whatever.

$200 more?

[JustNiz]

Why is the Linux version $200 more than the Windows 10 version? This is seriously just taking the piss.

Re:$200 more?

[donaldm]

Why is the Linux version $200 more than the Windows 10 version? This is seriously just taking the piss.

Basically, any Linux user will buy the Windows version then effectively wipe it and replace it with the Linux distribution of their choice. The problem with this and you can't blame the Linux user is that Microsoft can then rightly claim that they have shipped another Windows machine (ie. the Microsoft tax). Even if that Linux user returned the Windows license for a refund they would only get the OEM price if they were lucky and Microsoft would still claim a Windows shipment.

At least if you build you own machine or even get it assembled Microsoft get nothing. Unfortunately, laptops nearly always come with Microsoft Windows (and bloatware) and even if you download the Windows ISO from here and customise your own Windows 10 install (it's stupidly easy although I do advise the customise feature) you have still paid the Microsoft Tax.

Re:$200 more?

[JustNiz]

Everything you said is perfectly true but you totally didn't address my actual point, which is the question why Dell are charging an extra $150 more (my mistake not $200) for a laptop with a literally free operating system, than an identical one with an OS they have to buy a licence for.

Re:$200 more?

[donaldm]

Everything you said is perfectly true but you totally didn't address my actual point, which is the question why Dell are charging an extra $150 more (my mistake not $200) for a laptop with a literally free operating system, than an identical one with an OS they have to buy a licence for.

It is very difficult to say why Dell is doing that although I am quite sure they can spin it in a way that makes them the good guys instead of saying things like "We just want to rip you off so you will feel obliged to purchase one of our laptops with a Microsoft OS on it". :-)

I am pretty sure Dell pulled something along the same stunt a few years ago. See the following (2010) although don't bother to try and follow the links since they conveniently don't exist anymore.

I do think, like it or not, if you get a laptop it is cheaper to just get one with Windows installed and pay the Microsoft tax then wipe it and put on your preferred Linux distro (obviously check you can do this before your buy). You should also get the Widows 10 ISO file (4.2GB) from here and keep it so if you ever wish to sell your laptop you can sell it with a legitimate fresh install of Windows 10 without the bloatware (takes about 10 to 30 minutes) to the Windows brainwashed.

In fact, I would actually recommend getting the ISO and do a fresh install on the default Windows 10 (don't do the quick setup) even if you were not going to install a Linux distribution.

Re:$200 more?

[samwichse]

It has more powerful hardware (i5 vs i3, 8gb RAM vs 4gb) and an more expensive wifi card with good OSS drivers?

Re:$200 more?

[JustNiz]

Urgh built-in battery. No thanks.

Re:You can always roll your own with the motherboa

[Anonymous Coward]

That might have mattered back when Linux had crap hardware support. Nowadays it has better support than Windows does.

Year of the Linux Desktop will never happen

[Anonymous Coward]

You can have both proprietary and open source software on Windows. You can also offline install very old, current, or newest version of software on Windows with ease and no dependency issues like in Linux.

Open Source does have the best looking, customized Desktop Editions compared to Windows but they are usually not very stable which is understandable since you can do a lot more than you can with Windows GUI's. Ubuntu Mate 16.04.01 so freaking unstable.

Not sure if it's the lack of users or it's the GPL that scares developers from migrating over to Linux. I never heard MS throwing a sissy fit and claiming stealing because Windows developers were dynamically linking their programs.

I doubt MS is stealing your personal data from your drive. I have Terabytes of data and I did not see any increased uploading bandwidth from Windows 10 to MS Servers. I keep track with Network Monitoring tools. Don't believe all of the bs, fear mongering, coming out of ppl on the internet.

Re:Year of the Linux Desktop will never happen

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt MS is stealing your personal data from your drive. I have Terabytes of data and I did not see any increased uploading bandwidth from Windows 10 to MS Servers. I keep track with Network Monitoring tools. Don't believe all of the bs, fear mongering, coming out of ppl on the internet.

Please look at your Security settings and remember that by default every setting was turned on. Sure you can turn them off and I recommend you do but saying "I have nothing to hide" is extremely short sighted. Microsoft is not stealing your personal data which would be illegal and Microsoft is not that stupid to do such a thing. However with all the settings turned on everything you do will be sent to Microsoft (For your own good of course).

I also keep track with network monitoring tools and Windows 10 loves to chat to other Microsoft machines even when your machine is supposed to be idle. I don't see Linux distributions do that. Of course, you can always read the EULA if your eyes don't glaze over but if for some reason you do the "be afraid be very afraid".

Re:You can always roll your own with the motherboa

[Leslie43]

Linux has long had better hardware support, but often it was older hardware that Windows users didn't care about.

As for using the Windows version, yes, you could make it work, but you may have to download extra drivers, and there is another consideration with the hardware you should be concerned with more than that, and that is battery life. Just because something is supported, doesn't mean it plays well with it. I've seen systems lose only a small fraction of runtime while others lost more than half.

My bet is that Dell put in components that not only work out of the box, but aren't going to chew up the battery either.

Re:Running from Win 10. Linux still fails

[Anonymous Coward]

That is weird. I run Steam on mint. Or was the last time you tried to install it back when Runescape was a recognizable name?

Re:Running from Win 10. Linux still fails

[Anonymous Coward]

ROFL! So I was curious if runescape was still around and I went to the website and there is a nifty link right at the top.
  "What is RuneScape?"
http://www.runescape.com/mmo/what-is-rs

Are hardware backdoors disabled on the Linux vers?

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Are the hardware back doors (such as Intel AMT) disabled (or disablable) on the Linux version?

I've never even seen anybody with a Dell XPS 13

[Anonymous Coward]

Comparatively I see people with System76, ThinkPenguin, and even Mini Free's refurbished LibreBoot systems all the time. Where do I have to go to find people utilizing these Dell Ubuntu systems? They certainly aren't attending the dozens of Linux events I attend every year. I'm always amazed how a site that is targeted at Linux users promotes Dell, Apple, and Microsoft more than it promotes the companies actually making a difference in the Linux world. EOMA68 barely got listed and that was only after being marked as a slashvertisement. Sorry- but there are people actually designing new systems for Linux and they may not be pretty or shiny comparatively, but they are much better in the ways that make Linux great. They're respecting users freedoms and targeting Linux users. Dell in comparison is just doing this for positive publicity. The people who are really making a difference are shelling out years of their life to fix the real problems we have and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to improve support for GNU/Linux. Dell doesn't spend shit on solving the hardware problems. They're not getting us the source code for any of the important wifi chipsets. They aren't designing laptops with free software in mind. They aren't funding projects that aim to bring us privacy, security, and freedom.

Size

[phorm]

I'd imagine mostly because it's easier to pad the length of the laptop horizontally (Caps to Numkeys) by giving it a full-size keyboard , but a "taller" screen also means having a laptop with a lot of vertical space (touchpad to function keys) and there's not so much to fit in there. I've have a few 4:3 laptops and while the dimensions are nice to work with, the things are pretty brick'ish.

How does this compare to Librem computers?

[Herve5]

I must say I am a bit naive on these questions, being over 50 now. I always used macs or small linux laptops, and while currently on mac I definitely would like to switch.
Such a switch is something costly to me, and I don't want to fail. I use to choose rather recent hardware and then keep it for years.
I won't invest before a couple of months.
My motivation is definitely independence from walled gardens, but still needing some efficiency (to take an example, it'll be Darktable or Rawtherapee rather than the Gimp, and I'm very sensitive to the fact these are quite slow on my macbook pro).

At this moment I am hesitating between Dell 'perfect adequation to linux drivers' and Librem 'extending privacy down to hardware'.

But what I need is a more precise comparison: do you think one is clearly more efficient than the other, being on processing power, screen or privacy?

Recent stories like the one on that 'USB dongle that gets your admin credentials in 20s' turned me a bit sceptical on the hardware level. -but this may as well be a reason to be more careful with it?

TIA!