Microsoft Announces Ultra-Thin, Pixel-Dense Surface Studio Touchscreen PC (arstechnica.com)

flop by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 05:33 · Score: 0, Funny

coming to a Windows Phone store near you.....

Re:flop by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 05:59 · Score: 0

Lets see, if the crap hits the store before it is canceled. In a corporation of MS scale there are divisions which compete by canceling each others new stuff.

anon reader by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 05:34 · Score: 0

"An anonymous reader writes"

Mojokid, we know it's you

But..... by roger_that · 2016-10-26 05:35 · Score: 1

Where do I plug in my expansion cards?

Re:But..... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 05:38 · Score: 1

We have the COURAGE to eliminate expansion cards, and so should you.
Re: But..... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 05:57 · Score: 0

How is that any different than any modern laptop or small form factor pc?
Re: But..... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:07 · Score: 0

seriously? it has a 28" screen
largest laptop i know of has a 17 inch screen
Re: But..... by Hylandr · 2016-10-26 06:15 · Score: 1

The real question though, is can it run Linux?

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~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
Re: But..... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:18 · Score: 0

In the real world? Sure. Might need some drivers.

In the Slashdot world? Nope. It has Secure Boot and that is the evil empire blocking teh Linux, right?
Re: But..... by DaHat · 2016-10-26 06:42 · Score: 2

Of course it can... at least the important parts (aka the GNU side of things if you are Richard Stallman): https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-... ;)
Behold! 2016 is now the year of Linux* on the Desktop!

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Help Brendan pay off his student loans
Re: But..... by DaHat · 2016-10-26 06:46 · Score: 1

Did you miss the comment about 'small form factor pc'?
Why be satisfied with 28" when you can plug one of these into something bigger? http://www.intel.com/content/w...
Once you get to the "Nano-ITX or Pico-ITX sized devices, or just a single-board computer, USB or eSATA are your only expansion options.
So no, the upgradibility of this device is not much of a surprise, and likely not an issue for it's target market.

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Help Brendan pay off his student loans
Re: But..... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 07:18 · Score: 0

Ubuntu is now a feature installed with windows ;)
Re:But..... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 07:55 · Score: 0

I eliminated all expansion cards in my current laptop. Feels good.
Re: But..... by kuzb · 2016-10-26 07:56 · Score: 1

Then you don't know much: https://www.wiknix.com/the-bes...

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BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
Re:But..... by exomondo · 2016-10-26 10:38 · Score: 1

But this isn't meant to be a customizable PC/workstation, it's a purpose-built system. Indeed it's probably tremendously overpriced if you were considering it for a general workstation, but if you consider it for it's purpose: as an alternative to things like the Wacom Cintiq, then it's about right.
It's pretty cool but I don't think there's a very big market for this sort of product, the high resolution and stylus features are great but it's too expensive too shell out for unless that's really the focus of what you do on your computer.
Be interesting to see what the Linux folks do with something like this. I tried the Cintiq on Ubuntu using the Linux Wacom project but while it made it work - i.e. you could use the pen in Linux - there was no real use for it. But I suppose it's a niche market so there's not much interest in developing FOSS software for it.
Re: But..... by terjeber · 2016-10-26 11:00 · Score: 1

Windows runs (currently a limited set of) Linux apps fine with the Linux sub-system.
Re: But..... by Hylandr · 2016-10-26 11:13 · Score: 1

Running Linux Apps is not Running Linux.
The only hint of Windows I want on a Linux box is games that have no Linux version running on wine.
Will it boot and run Linux without any hint of W10 ?

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~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
Re: But..... by rtb61 · 2016-10-26 12:25 · Score: 1

So what you are saying is M$ can basically shove it where you wont allow their probe to go ;). The brand damage they are doing is mind boggling, so perverse, so uncool, just plain nasty. They are going to have real trouble selling anything into the retail market and it will only get worse. They are going to have to buy another company, in order to use their name for retail sales, to try to get the MS stank off anything they sell, what is going through their minds, I do not know, the sheer unmitigated arrogance.

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Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Re: But..... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 13:00 · Score: 0

The brand damage they are doing is mind boggling, so perverse, so uncool, just plain nasty. They are going to have real trouble selling anything into the retail market and it will only get worse.
You say that but you are looking at it from the perspective of people who equate telemetry (which many, many systems have and have had for a long time) to "spying" and some evils of proprietary software. Most people don't care about this at all, that is why they use out-of-date, vulnerable Android smartphones for all their communications and financial transactions or choose a proprietary iPhone that is sending who-knows-what to who-knows-who, not to mention various entities slurping up internet traffic and cell service providers intercepting your traffic and tracking your triangulated position even before you think about GPS.
But even before you consider those things you have to remember this "evils of telemetry data" is coming from the same people that have said this was happening through "backdoors" in Windows for the past 2 decades, were they lying then? If not then why publicise the fact that they are capturing telemetry data if it's really just an information backdoor? And is the hyperbole about telemetry really something people should worry about? *Exactly* what information are you saying is being sent? Is it my mouse position? My screen? My text? Is it anonymized (as the privacy policy indicates it is)?
Re:But..... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 15:06 · Score: 0

"it's a purpose-built system" Of course it is a purpose-built system. You know for those people who actually use their PC to run applications. The same people who don't give a shit about what operating system they are using and only care that they can run their applications. It is not purpose built to cater a bunch of geeks who do nothing but try play around installing other OS's and complaining about the difficulties they run into. And as far as the size of the market goes you were probably one of those who declared 30 years ago that PC's would never create a big market.
Re:But..... by exomondo · 2016-10-26 15:25 · Score: 1

"it's a purpose-built system" Of course it is a purpose-built system. You know for those people who actually use their PC to run applications.
But more specifically, those that require - or significantly benefit from - a large display with an active digitizer. Otherwise why would you pay a premium price for something you aren't going to use?

And as far as the size of the market goes you were probably one of those who declared 30 years ago that PC's would never create a big market.
Yes of course, I must have been. Clearly the pointing out that the market for an expensive PC with active digitizer is smaller than that for cheaper PCs that lack it means that 3 decades ago I must have been an advocate for saying there wouldn't be a big market for PCs, 'cos that totally follows.
Re: But..... by yuriklastalov · 2016-10-26 16:06 · Score: 1

They've almost certainly locked the bootloader, and no, you can't have the keys thank you very much!
Re: But..... by Hylandr · 2016-10-26 16:29 · Score: 1

My screen?
Screen size along with other factors too numerous to mention is a digital fingerprint of who you are whether or not they have your personal information like passwords, personal address, Credit cards etc. There's enough information in one place that a single compromise at a company that's infamous for insecure systems that a persons life and finances could be destroyed.
You talk of 'Telemetry' as though it were not a keylogger, which is one of the things most anti-virus software scans for. You're suggesting that we suddenly turn a deaf ear to decades of CIS best practices simply because MS changed the word from 'Keylogger' to 'Telemetry'.
I am pretty sure you can guess what I think you can do with yourself and that opinion of yours.

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~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
Re: But..... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 17:07 · Score: 0

Screen size along with other factors too numerous to mention is a digital fingerprint of who you are whether or not they have your personal information like passwords, personal address, Credit cards etc. There's enough information in one place that a single compromise at a company that's infamous for insecure systems that a persons life and finances could be destroyed.
Can you explain a plausible scenario how this "digital fingerprint" made up of these factors you can't mention can destroy your personal life and finances?

You talk of 'Telemetry' as though it were not a keylogger, which is one of the things most anti-virus software scans for.
Sure, it's to improve their services like spell checking and hand-writing recognition. Worried about that? Sure that's ok too, just turn it off: There's a switch in Settings->Privacy called "Send Microsoft info about how i write to help us improve typing and writing in the future"
There, you learned something and it's solved your problem!
Re: But..... by terjeber · 2016-10-27 02:01 · Score: 1

So you can't run Linux on VM Ware then. Were you born stupid or did you grow into it? Google "subsystem".
Re: But..... by Hylandr · 2016-10-27 05:19 · Score: 1

This has to be a troll.
Windows attempt to run bash and ubuntu is a laughable failure so far. Windows is by no means a Virtual Service like vSphere.
The power and joy of Linux on my desktop is that it's not windows. It's not the linux Apps I want in windows, it's the Windows *Games* I want in Linux. Until better alternatives to Overwatch are found or created. Even then, I am half a mind to leave overwatch altogether so I can recover that TB HDD windows is wasting.

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~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
Re: But..... by terjeber · 2016-10-27 07:07 · Score: 1

It is perfectly fine to want Linux on the desktop. The Mac (as a Unix box) is heads and shoulders above what Linux will ever become, but that's all right too. If you are happy with the state of Linux apps, good for you. As someone who needs more than development tools, Linux is not a desktop solution for me, and even for development, both Windows and Mac makes a Linux desktop box look like a toy. A poorly designed, almost unusable toy, but a toy all the same.
You stick to your religion, it's a nice idea. You are virtuous in the eyes of the /. community, which I assume is your primary reason for using Linux on the desktop. I can think of no other reason that could be considered rational.
Oh, and before you get all exited, my first Linux install was SLS somewhere in late 1992 early 1993, can't remember for sure, when I upgraded my Minix 4 channel BBS box to Linux. I later ventured into QNX territory, which I much preferred to Linux at the time. My favorite platform was SunOS, and when they betrayed all sense of reason and moved to Solaris, I moved to BSD. After all this, the only conclusion is that the only Unix flavor that works on the Desktop is OSX.
Re: But..... by Hylandr · 2016-10-27 07:39 · Score: 1

I moved to BSD. After all this, the only conclusion is that the only Unix flavor that works on the Desktop is OSX.
Which believe it or not is a complete rip of BSD because of what the BSD licence allows.
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... )

- The Mac (as a Unix box) is heads and shoulders above what Linux will ever become,
- You stick to your religion
Pot, meet Kettle.
Apple has done an amazing job making mediocre techs feel like technical demigods. (Not to suggest you fall into that category) It's great for producing consumer grade work without allowing for the distraction of 'options', or a sense of making sound financial decisions considering how much more expensive a Macbook is compared to a similarly equipped PC which can run any number of OS including MacOS ( Formerly BSD ) .
That said, don't get me wrong. I cut my programming teeth on the Apple][e and I have fond memories of it. But as we grow and mature we have a tendency to choose the best tool for the job while keeping a wise eye on our spending. Read: When you're not depending on work to buy your kit you need to spend wisely.
I don't run Linux on the desktop at home because I am after the revere of /., I run it because I can afford it, I have the freedom to install and run a wide variety of apps often from other OS with some exceptions. But that's still more than OSX / BSD Offers. I run it because I have more trust in Linux protecting my privacy than in an OS that comes unabashedly with a key-logger that sends all it's data home so the OS can serve me 'targeted ads'.
*Fuck*Ads*
and
**Double**Fuck**Ads**On**My**Os**
Given that last little bit, Mac actually stands higher in my preference than windows. But the price point beats Apple into the corner. The only catch to Linux is you are generally compelled to be more competent in the use of your system. I don't see that as a bad thing.

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~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
Re: But..... by exomondo · 2016-10-27 10:00 · Score: 1

They've almost certainly locked the bootloader, and no, you can't have the keys thank you very much!
You can install Linux just fine on all the other surface products so what do you think is so special about this one?
Re: But..... by terjeber · 2016-10-27 17:28 · Score: 1

Pot, meet Kettle
Actually, not even close. Someone who uses Windows, OSX and Linux for whatever they are best at can not be considered religious about an OS, but someone who claims there is one true OS certainly is religious - which is the opposite of rational.

we have a tendency to choose the best tool
If you go for Linux on the desktop, this is certainly not true. Cheapest tool for the job, perhaps but best? Not even close. On the desktop, even Windows beats Linux, all the time, every day. In fact Linux has ZERO advantages over Windows on the desktop. Now, of course, when tin-foil hats are your preferred headgear, well, perhaps you feel more comfortable, but there is nothing making it better as a tool.
Re: But..... by Hylandr · 2016-10-27 18:25 · Score: 1

Discarding your religion and conspiracy projecting.
I work with many Linux servers in a day, and having a native desktop that doesn't require this thing or that thing installed to talk to other technologies or platforms is a dream.
Korora has all the widgets of Ubuntu with the speed you would expect from Centos. Audio drivers, video drivers are sorted for both nvidia and ati.
I was playing games as soon as I installed steam and loaded Team Fortress 2. With no tweaks.
That's a huge improvement in the last 21 years I have been using Linux when You installed from Floppy, Compiled, and installed your Kernel by hand and started with a completely clean X window Interface. It was plain and bland but at least you didn't have to worry about having a big enough video card to run Windows.
Back then games were limited on the desktop to things like 'fortune'.
Bonus round. Review all our threads and find where I claimed

there is one true OS
You're the one that brought that up.
I even placed Mac 2nd over windows.
Who want's Apple to be number 1? It may be number one to you, That's fine. Linux is number one to me and those are my reasons. Anyone is welcome to share them, or have their own that don't agree.
Why, are we arguing which one is best when we clearly have differences of personality that leads us to interface with the digital world differently.
And why is that difference seen as 'wrong'?

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~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.

GPU? by caferace · 2016-10-26 05:35 · Score: 1, Informative

Nothing about the GPU? That's ... lame.

Re:GPU? by alvinrod · 2016-10-26 05:40 · Score: 4, Informative

The linked article says it's got somewhere between a GeForce GTX 965M and 980M, so slightly old kit, but some of the best available as far as mobile GPUs go.
Re:GPU? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 05:42 · Score: 0

The live stream mentioned a 980M I think
Re:GPU? by Misagon · 2016-10-26 06:22 · Score: 4, Informative

There are three models. The i5/8GB and i7/16GB models has GTX 965M w/ 2GB mem.
The i7/32GB model has a GTX 980M w/ 4GB memory.
Note that NVidia's mobile GPUs in that generation (900-series, "Maxwell" architecture) are lower-specced chips than the non-M desktop chips.
Meanwhile, there are laptops out with NVidia's next generation of GPUs (10-series, "Pascal") and those do not have different chips in the mobile GPUs, they are only binned and clocked slightly lower, not as a significant difference.

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"We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
Re:GPU? by Billly+Gates · 2016-10-27 00:58 · Score: 1

I am also disappointed it has no USB type C or Thunderbolt considering the cheapest model is nearly $3000!
All the new phones starting with the Nexus 6P all use this interface for fast charging and file transfer. I could see or not care if this was a $1600 device, but for $3,000 it should come with top end graphics and I/O ports

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http://saveie6.com/
Re:GPU? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-28 04:06 · Score: 0

This is a desktop system, so shouldn't be compared to "mobile" GPUs. I get it that it's thinner, but it's not competing with laptops *at all*.

Lots of Microsoft ads on the front page today by fustakrakich · 2016-10-26 05:37 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Shouldn't they be tagged as "sponsored content"?

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“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”

Re:Lots of Microsoft ads on the front page today by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 05:42 · Score: 0

Same with Elon Musk/Tesla bullshit
Re:Lots of Microsoft ads on the front page today by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 05:51 · Score: 3, Insightful

Microsoft held a press conference announcing a lot of stuff today, and it's tech news.
Tomorrow, Apple is holding a press conference to announce a lot of shit, so expect to get a lot of Apple slashvertisements tomorrow.
That's just kind of a natural side effect of companies announcing a lot of things at big events - a lot of news about them is generated all at once.
Re:Lots of Microsoft ads on the front page today by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:29 · Score: 0

Only if I can get all your posts tagged as uninformed user, so everyone knows that you dont think it fitting for a bunch of MS articles when MS releases a bunch of new stuff. Just like there are a bunch of apple articles when apple releases a bunch of new stuff.
Re:Lots of Microsoft ads on the front page today by fustakrakich · 2016-10-26 06:45 · Score: 1

They can put it all in one article. It's still free advertising.

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“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Re:Lots of Microsoft ads on the front page today by D00MSlayer · 2016-10-26 06:48 · Score: 1

When a tech company holds a launch event/conference, you'll experience multiple news releases on tech-related websites.
If you experience negative side effects from multiple-news-release syndrome, may I suggest a codeine suppository? Or maybe a horse tranquilizer? It'll knock you out for about 24 hours and by the time you come back, it'll be all over.
Re:Lots of Microsoft ads on the front page today by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:59 · Score: 0

Why all in one article? If Microsoft announces N things per year that deserve an article each, and if it happens that today they announced 3 things that deserve an article each, then there should be 3 articles today. And yes tech companies get free advertising from the press when they announce cool stuff, get used to it.
Re:Lots of Microsoft ads on the front page today by thegarbz · 2016-10-26 07:00 · Score: 1

Shouldn't they be tagged as "sponsored content"?
Yeah I suppose a news for nerds aggregator shouldn't be covering things like major releases from an event by the biggest company in IT.
But really then they should call it "just nerds" since there won't be any news left.
Re:Lots of Microsoft ads on the front page today by cfalcon · 2016-10-26 07:03 · Score: 1

Microsoft just announced a product line, it is pretty damned relevant.
Marketing would link to their incredible advert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Not shown: everything you do being uploaded to Redmond
Re:Lots of Microsoft ads on the front page today by EvilSS · 2016-10-26 07:56 · Score: 1

But really then they should call it "just nerds" since there won't be any news left.
So... like most days around here now then.

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I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
Re:Lots of Microsoft ads on the front page today by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 10:47 · Score: 0

mod parent up - fuck this M$ shit
Re:Lots of Microsoft ads on the front page today by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 10:48 · Score: 0

Shouldn't they be tagged as "sponsored content"?
Maybe you should just go here instead and stop bitching on slashdot about slashdot. But I suspect that, like the majority of slashdotters, you aren't really interested in Linux hence the reason kernel news gets a couple dozen comments and anything about Microsoft, Google or Apple has hundreds of echo chamberists chanting "SPYWARE" "ANTITRUST" "VENDOR LOCK-IN".
Re:Lots of Microsoft ads on the front page today by exomondo · 2016-10-26 10:50 · Score: 1

They can put it all in one article. It's still free advertising.
Yes if there's one thing I thought of about the audience of Slashdot it's that they are the perfect target market for Microsoft to advertise to.
Re:Lots of Microsoft ads on the front page today by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 10:55 · Score: 0

Not shown: everything you do being uploaded to Redmond
That sort of hyperbole really makes this community look like a bunch of stupid paranoid morons that think "telemetry" means "everything you do is uploaded to Redmond". The same crowd were telling us this was already happening with backdoors in Windows 2 decades ago (which of course even with the NT and 2000 leaks, were still never found) so why would they need this "telemetry" that you say is "uploading everything you do to Redmond" if they already have these backdoors? and if that's really what they are doing then why would they be telling you about it?
Re:Lots of Microsoft ads on the front page today by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-27 05:11 · Score: 0

Hardly offtopic since you damn people started inserting that "Sponsored Content" drivel in between articles on the front page. This Microsoft/Apple/Google crap belongs under that heading.

2 TB Hard drive? by dgatwood · 2016-10-26 05:44 · Score: 1

This probably means a laptop hard drive with a bit of flash, complete with all the performance impact that it entails. Computers should either be all flash (for speed) or should have a real desktop HD to provide usable capacity (i.e. 6 TB+). Any other design is a silly compromise that won't make anybody happy—either too small or too slow (or both).

--

Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

Re:2 TB Hard drive? by alvinrod · 2016-10-26 05:51 · Score: 3, Interesting

Hybrid drives are fine provided the operating system knows that it's dealing with one and can exploit that fact by keeping the commonly used files in the flash memory and rarely used files or those large files that can be streamed quickly enough from the spinning disk stored on that part of the drive.

However, as this seems to be a professional type device, they should be building in a different solution that involves some kind or RAID storage. Or perhaps they just assume anyone with a brain or the past experiencing of an untimely disk failure already has an external setup so why bother baking it into the system.
Re:2 TB Hard drive? by Archangel+Michael · 2016-10-26 06:07 · Score: 1

I suggest that computers need flash, period. For just the IOPS alone. Even for normal "computing".

--
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Re:2 TB Hard drive? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:21 · Score: 0

RAID? Are you stuck in 1987? They just assume you're mirroring your files on OneDrive.
Re:2 TB Hard drive? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:30 · Score: 0

That and these will be mostly professional installations and be working with file severs for backup and bulk data storage..
It's still a big mistake... for the price I'd much prefer a 1TB SSD vs the 2TB hybrid...
Re:2 TB Hard drive? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:31 · Score: 1

Hybrid drives are fine provided the operating system knows that it's dealing with one and can exploit that fact by keeping the commonly used files in the flash memory and rarely used files or those large files that can be streamed quickly enough from the spinning disk stored on that part of the drive.
However, as this seems to be a professional type device, they should be building in a different solution that involves some kind or RAID storage. Or perhaps they just assume anyone with a brain or the past experiencing of an untimely disk failure already has an external setup so why bother baking it into the system.
Backups protect your data from catastrophic loss. RAID protects your time by making catastrophic loss much less likely. RAID still has it's place, but backups are an absolute must-have.
Re:2 TB Hard drive? by thegarbz · 2016-10-26 06:53 · Score: 1

they should be building in a different solution that involves some kind or RAID storage
That's so 1995. These days it's about NASes, USB-Cing their way to the Clouds.
Re:2 TB Hard drive? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:59 · Score: 0

How about a 1TB SSD and a 1TB HD in RAID 1 (or whatever the mirroring type is)? You get the speed of the SSD and the "automatic" backup to HD. Or else just a hybrid drive with a flash cache the same size as the spinners - should work about the same. Certainly, it doesn't mean you don't have to have off-machine backups - you do, whether physical or cloud (preferably both: cloud is slow for internet connections that can be had by ordinary mortals, and seems to break more often than your average NAS).
Re:2 TB Hard drive? by viperidaenz · 2016-10-26 09:13 · Score: 1

So you have to have a huge write cache on the RAID controller to support the slow hard drive? Or do you slow the SSD writes down to the hard drive speed?
If the whole point is to keep your data safe, you'll need a non-volatile cache. You could use flash I suppose... Wait you've just created a hybrid drive.
Re:2 TB Hard drive? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 12:51 · Score: 0

they should be building in a different solution that involves some kind or RAID storage.
Why should *they* be doing it? Even if they did what you say the very fact that it came from Microsoft would make people here hate it anyway. Why can't the FOSS community put together a product that does this?
The integration of hardware and software is becoming tighter these days, the idea that the two should be abstract and separate is going away because purpose-built devices solve problems better. Sure I can get a wacom screen and install linux mint then get a driver to make the screen and pen work so I can use the pen as a mouse in linux to draw using inkscape or gimp but it's pretty crap. People don't want to cobble together solutions and its not like just because you use a tightly integrated device that you can't use anything else (later or in parallel), you aren't at all "locked in".
This isn't going to be for everybody but the high resolution screen, the stylus/digitizer and the dial is going to be great for many (not all) artists. Where's the FOSS solution/workflow/product for this? Not only does it not exist but now it will be an exercise of trying to shoehorn in support for a device like this and somewhere one day down the track it will be at least functional.
Re:2 TB Hard drive? by Zeromous · 2016-10-26 13:57 · Score: 1

There are so many reasons that is a terrible idea.

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---Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A START
Re:2 TB Hard drive? by dgatwood · 2016-10-27 11:37 · Score: 1

Depends. For the OS, apps, and frequently used data, flash is a huge win. For infrequently used, large files like photos, video, etc., spinning storage is fast enough, and is at a better point on the price/performance curve.

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Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

Can you put Linux on it? by khz6955 · 2016-10-26 05:44 · Score: 2

Distrowatch putting the fun back in computing.

Re:Can you put Linux on it? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:14 · Score: 0

I'm not certain what I read, but I'd like the last minute and change of my life back.
Re:Can you put Linux on it? by chispito · 2016-10-26 08:44 · Score: 2

Distrowatch putting the fun back in computing.
It has a gigantic, ultra high resolution display that accepts a pressure sensitive pen. What are you really going to run in Linux that doesn't waste those features?

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The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
Re:Can you put Linux on it? by khz6955 · 2016-10-26 16:13 · Score: 1

@Anonymous TROLL: "My friend says that FreeBSD stole the TCP/IP stack from DOS

No your friend is wrong, DOS didn't have TCP/IP stack and neither did Windows 3.11, that was provided by Trumpet Winsock. The native Winsock later on provided with Windows 95 was bought-in from Microdyne. And finally Winsock was copied from BSD sockets, not the other way round.

Touch Screen? by TechyImmigrant · 2016-10-26 05:45 · Score: 2

Touch my screen and I'll break your finger off.

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I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.

Re:Touch Screen? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 05:49 · Score: 3, Funny

You seem really cool and fun.
Re:Touch Screen? by TechyImmigrant · 2016-10-26 06:48 · Score: 1

I am, provided you don't touch my screen.

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I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
Re:Touch Screen? by thegarbz · 2016-10-26 06:58 · Score: 1

Touch my screen and I'll break your finger off.
Oh wow, you're going to be breaking a lot of fingers including your own very soon. Stop being so touchy about the subject.
Re:Touch Screen? by TechyImmigrant · 2016-10-26 07:26 · Score: 1

Touch my screen and I'll break your finger off.
Oh wow, you're going to be breaking a lot of fingers including your own very soon. Stop being so touchy about the subject.
I'm touched by your concern.

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I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
Re:Touch Screen? by johannesg · 2016-10-26 08:14 · Score: 1

While I wouldn't go quite that far, I do keep a spray of screen cleaning fluid near my desk. At one point, a colleague famous for leaving fingerprints on screens around the office (some people can only read things they point at, apparently) touched my screen, and was mightily surprised when I immediately sprayed both the screen and his finger...
Re:Touch Screen? by sinij · 2016-10-26 08:26 · Score: 1

Personal space guy, is this you?
Re:Touch Screen? by TechyImmigrant · 2016-10-26 08:33 · Score: 1

If you appease them with spray bottles, it will only lead to escalation. Ask Neville Chamberlain.

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I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
Re:Touch Screen? by TechyImmigrant · 2016-10-26 08:43 · Score: 2

No, I'm keep your greasy fingermarks off my screen guy.
Personal space guy is over there, the one with the curtain across his cube door.

--
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
Re: Touch Screen? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 09:03 · Score: 0

The touch screen and form factor are very much the selling points for me. Its basically a nice large wacom tablet built into an all-in-one.
Re:Touch Screen? by thegarbz · 2016-10-26 11:26 · Score: 2

Something about your comment makes it sound sarcastic, but I can't quite put my finger on it. ..
Re:Touch Screen? by sinij · 2016-10-28 06:38 · Score: 1

I can confirm, after appeasing my screen was recently invaded and is now is full of dead pixels.
Re:Touch Screen? by TechyImmigrant · 2016-10-28 07:02 · Score: 1

Don't cross the Maginot scan line.

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I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.

Uh..... the price tag?! by King_TJ · 2016-10-26 05:49 · Score: 1, Insightful

I actually think this sounds like a pretty nice, well spec'd out machine.... but then I saw the price tag!

$4,199 for the high-end config?

I thought everyone was throwing a huge fit about the insane pricing for Apple's Mac Pro "trashcan" workstation? Yet it's been offered since the end of 2013 in a configuration with a 3.5Ghz 6 core Xeon processor (not just a Pentium 4 desktop class CPU) and Dual FirePro AMD graphics w/3GB of VRAM per card, for $200 less than this! (Yeah, it "only" has 16GB of RAM instead of 32GB and a 256GB SSD -- but RAM is pretty inexpensive, and we don't even know for sure what type of storage makes up the 2TB in this new Microsoft Surface desktop. Pretty certain it's not just a 2TB SSD, in any case.)

Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:28 · Score: 0

and how much would a 28" 4500x3000 screen with accurate colors add to your Mac Pro purchase?
Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by barc0001 · 2016-10-26 06:43 · Score: 1

This more competes with the 27" iMac that is $2300, and is nowhere near those specs. Overpriced sure, but not out in crazytown compared to the Mac.
Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by Greyfox · 2016-10-26 06:45 · Score: 1, Informative

I suppose you're largely paying for thin there. I can get a similarly speced Dell Precision with a touch screen and a 2TB SSD for about $1000 less (With Linux preiinstalled.) The Apple Trash Can is competing in the workstation arena, though, and I just did a monster VR desktop build and was having trouble breaking 4 grand with it. Although it would have been a lot easier if I were trying to put a Xeon or dual Xeon in it. The amount of labor I put in to building it myself probably would have tacked another $1000 or so onto the price.
Given that you'd be able to use that (Apple) machine for upwards of 10 years if you wanted to, the price isn't particularly unreasonable. My first aluminum mac pro from 2005-ish is currently serving as an asterisk box for a friend of mine who has a small business and needed a PBX system, and the machine is still plenty capable of doing that. It wasn't even ridiculously expensive for a dual Xeon workstation at the time -- I don't think I could have built one for less money back then.

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Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by Nemyst · 2016-10-26 06:48 · Score: 1

Um... The Mac Pro doesn't come with a screen, which is where the majority of the cost goes here.
Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by MachineShedFred · 2016-10-26 07:24 · Score: 3, Informative

Except it really doesn't. You can configure iMac 27" 5K to have a 4GHz 4-core CPU, 2TB "fusion" drive (probably same hybrid thing Microsoft has here), 32GB RAM, and a Radeon R9 M395X with 4GB VRAM for $3400.
That's basically the same machine, except with an Apple logo and OS X instead of Microsoft logos and Windows 10, and no touchscreen. And, the bit that makes the touchscreen even remotely useable was patented by Apple 6 years ago so Microsoft didn't even come up with that - they can just use it through the cross-licensing agreement that the two companies share.
Is the touchscreen and Windows 10 really worth $800?

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Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by gman003 · 2016-10-26 07:41 · Score: 1

The price for a Wacom screen of that size is about $2800, and that one's only 2560x1440. $1400 for a decent-specced computer in that form factor is about what you'd pay with anyone else.
Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by aliquis · 2016-10-26 07:54 · Score: 1

It's not a Pentium 4.
A Skylake processor would be newer and a better architecture than the Xeon used in the Mac Pro, the Mac Pro have more cores but the superiority ends there. There's little difference between the server Xeons and the enthusiasts and consumer chips.
It's not Pentium 4 vs Itanium.
Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by avandesande · 2016-10-26 07:56 · Score: 1

Only a few 5k monitors out there and they are over 2,000$

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love is just extroverted narcissism
Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by avandesande · 2016-10-26 07:57 · Score: 2

It is if you design mobile sites and want to test touch functionality.

--
love is just extroverted narcissism
Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by EvilSS · 2016-10-26 07:59 · Score: 1

And a high-end pen digitizer, don't forget that detail.

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Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by aliquis · 2016-10-26 08:01 · Score: 1

You can get an 8 core Xeon chip used on ebay for $100.
Good start towards keeping up with that Mac Pro for $4000 ...
Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by EvilSS · 2016-10-26 08:05 · Score: 1

I suppose you're largely paying for thin there. I can get a similarly speced Dell Precision with a touch screen and a 2TB SSD for about $1000 less (With Linux preiinstalled.) The Apple Trash Can is competing in the workstation arena, though, and I just did a monster VR desktop build and was having trouble breaking 4 grand with it. Although it would have been a lot easier if I were trying to put a Xeon or dual Xeon in it. The amount of labor I put in to building it myself probably would have tacked another $1000 or so onto the price.
Given that you'd be able to use that (Apple) machine for upwards of 10 years if you wanted to, the price isn't particularly unreasonable. My first aluminum mac pro from 2005-ish is currently serving as an asterisk box for a friend of mine who has a small business and needed a PBX system, and the machine is still plenty capable of doing that. It wasn't even ridiculously expensive for a dual Xeon workstation at the time -- I don't think I could have built one for less money back then.
Thing is, it's not just a touch screen. It's a wide-gamut, high resolution pen digitizer. I don't even know of any available that would directly compare to it, but the QHD (1440) 27" Wacom Cintiq will run you around $2600 and it is just a display, and with lower specs. If Wacom made this display it would probably cost $4K by itself.

If you just want a touch-screen PC this isn't for you. This is aimed directly at the professionals using iMacs in film, animation, graphics, and arts.

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Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by squiggleslash · 2016-10-26 08:12 · Score: 1

Well, you're paying for what we computer people call "The Microsoft premium". As we all know, Microsoft's products aren't just designed to be powerful, but to have a design aesthetic that makes them just a little bit special compared to the competition. Apple has always been known for their powerful, but pedestrian, beige or gray thrown together boxes, with no thought given to how a device should look or feel or its usability. Whereas people buy Microsoft not just for the quality, but to own something a little special and little different from the boring old me-too machines from everyone else. A machine that looks friendly, and is friendly.
It's an ethos that may mean Microsoft only gets 2-3% of the market with its Lumia phones, or Zune music players, or Surface tablets, but it ends up getting the right 2-3%, discerning customers willing to pay more for a better product, who'll eventually influence those around them to do the same thing.
For more details, see my blog, Brave Plasma-sphere.

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Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by chispito · 2016-10-26 08:46 · Score: 2

Is the touchscreen and Windows 10 really worth $800?
If you draw for a living it's worth far more than $800.

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The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
Re: Uh..... the price tag?! by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 09:19 · Score: 1

He deliberately left out the pen digitizer functionality by calling it a touch screen. How much is a big Wacom Cintiq? Remember to add a budget for the helium and balloons needed to lower the weight.
Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 11:30 · Score: 0

But a stand-alone monitor would be more utilitarian in that it can be separated from the computer, moved around, or sold easily.
(WTF does anyone buy all-in-ones?)
Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 11:54 · Score: 0

Now add in the cost of a 27" Cintiq.
https://www.amazon.com/Wacom-Cintiq-27QHD-DTK2700-DTK-2700/dp/B00R7QJBCS/ref=sr_1_7?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1477526001&sr=1-7&keywords=cintiq
I mean...you obviously are not the target market and obviously aren't intelligent enough to understand the application of a device like this.
Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by exomondo · 2016-10-26 13:10 · Score: 1

That's basically the same machine, except with an Apple logo and OS X instead of Microsoft logos and Windows 10, and no touchscreen.
It's not just a touchscreen though, it's a digitizer that supports an active stylus as well.

Is the touchscreen and Windows 10 really worth $800?
Well that depends, if you need a touchscreen with an active stylus for the work you're doing then yes, if not then probably not.
Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by spongman · 2016-10-26 16:28 · Score: 1

plus $2,800 for the touch/digitizing display.
Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by Wdomburg · 2016-10-27 02:41 · Score: 1

$200 more for 2016 tech instead of 2013, a 28" high DPI, color accurate touchscreen and digitizer... Yeah, what a rip-off. Sure, it's a Xeon, but as the Apple fans have pointed out, single core performance of a processor that old is actually lower than the iPhone 7 offers.
Looks like Apple is finally refreshing though, since their store page for the Mac Pro is now a teaser. Will be interesting to see what they offer.
Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by barc0001 · 2016-10-27 15:56 · Score: 1

> Is the touchscreen and Windows 10 really worth $800?
You did watch the video, right? It looks like one of the target markets is people who will actively interact with a digitizer pen, and considering a Wacom 27" LCD tablet (which is smaller and only 2560x1440 res) is $2800 all by itself:
https://www.amazon.com/Wacom-Cintiq-27QHD-Creative-Display/dp/B00R7QJAHY
I'd say getting a bigger workspace with a much higher pixel density and a decent computer thrown in is pretty attractive to that segment by comparison.
Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-28 03:14 · Score: 0

Or you can use the tablets that you have already been using before this existed for that, at a net price of $0
Re:Uh..... the price tag?! by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-29 07:24 · Score: 0

If you draw for a living you aren't using the jacked up NTrig digitizer anyway, you have a Cintiq, which makes the digitizer on this useless

I would pay $100 for this by WillAffleckUW · 2016-10-26 05:54 · Score: 1, Funny

How much did you say it cost again?

You must have read the wrong price ...

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-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --

Re:I would pay $100 for this by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:00 · Score: 1

This product is not for you.
For $100 you can get a generic chinese Android 5.0 tablet from a company whose name is actually irrelevant because it no longer exists.

Re:$3000 BASE PRICE?!?!? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 05:56 · Score: 0

Now MS just needs the "Surface Syinder" and their lineup will be complete!

Predicting a spike (and I don't mean price) by hyades1 · 2016-10-26 06:01 · Score: 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyhjUFcXgo0

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Microsoft? No. by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:02 · Score: 0, Funny

NO means NO!

Re:Microsoft? No. by Ravaldy · 2016-10-26 06:27 · Score: 1

U say no, the other 95% say possibly.

Windows 10 data harvesting? by QuietLagoon · 2016-10-26 06:05 · Score: 2, Insightful

Does it require the Windows 10 data harvesting to be enabled?

Re:Windows 10 data harvesting? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:21 · Score: 2, Insightful

You can disable it. But it will harvest your data anyway.
Data harvesting is voluntary, but not optional.
Re:Windows 10 data harvesting? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:44 · Score: 2, Interesting

Someone was wondering how come he was able to upload a personal file to OneDrive faster than his connection would allow. It turns out his file was already in the data harvesting system which is now fully unified with OneDrive to prevent duplication. OneDrive's upload/delete features are cheaply implemented as show/hide in the data harvesting system that they already have, so it is pure profit.
Re:Windows 10 data harvesting? by EvilSS · 2016-10-26 08:08 · Score: 2

No, but you must submit DNA sample at each login.

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Re:$3000 BASE PRICE?!?!? by nojayuk · 2016-10-26 06:10 · Score: 1

From the actual article -- "includes a 28" display with 13.5 million pixels at a 4500x3000 resolution"

The standard 4k resolution mentioned was a comparison, not part of the spec of the Surface. As for the price comparison, please add in the cost of a high-definition screen-based digitiser to the Apple iMac spec and get back to us. Oh, the iMacs don't have a built-in screen digitiser as an option? Oops.

6 minute Abs and Ludicrous Speed. by goombah99 · 2016-10-26 06:10 · Score: 2

And so begins the pixel war of 2016. I'm just waiting for someone to invent non-pixelated screen which just uses continuous orthogonal functions to paint the screen. Ironically, Back in the electron gun days one could actually have done that. I suspect that it might be possible to do this with e-ink eventually.

And in the end the appearance will not be better. All that will happen is some fool will think that since every resolution enhancement should mean a thinner non-serif font, that in the limit of continuous resolution one should go to zero width fonts. Logical?

What should be happening is the resolution enhancement should strive for better legibility using serif fonts. These actually were a little tricky to use at 72 DPI. at 200DPI they make total sense and now were getting to Ludicrous-DPI

--
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.

The Mobile Desktop by SuperKendall · 2016-10-26 06:11 · Score: 1

The device itself looks really sexy, no doubt about that.

Looking more at the specs though it really seems more like a mobile device with a giant screen bolted on. It has as mentioned a 2TB laptop drive (probably) but even worse to me, the GTX 980M instead of the GTX 1080... if I'm going to go with a desktop over a laptop I really could use that extra boost (nearly twice as much processing power).

Yes the 1080 card is damn large but so fast they should have built the base around it, the base could easily be a bit larger without compromising the design.

I was pricing building out a desktop for VR work and as cool as this looks, it's not compelling as a replacement to the system I was thinking of building.

I'm also not 100% sure that an on-screen dial is superior to a dial accessory that sits of the desk (there are a number of USB dials I believe, I have one). It seems like it would take up a lot of screen real-estate and mandate the screen be tilted with you standing over it, not how most people work. Not to mention if you didn't have long arms, could you even reach across it easily? Even in the demo video some of the people seem to be stretching a lot.

I don't mean to throw so much shade onto a very cool device, I just wonder how it will be to use in practice when the novelty wears off. I'm sure some artists will really, really love this though.

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"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:The Mobile Desktop by Nemyst · 2016-10-26 06:49 · Score: 1

The dial can be used off-screen as basically a wheel of sorts, but the on-screen use adds the ability to show a digital control wheel around it which can be extremely practical. I think it's gonna be a net win over purely off-screen dials.
Re:The Mobile Desktop by SuperKendall · 2016-10-26 07:04 · Score: 1

You could however easily have the on-screen digital control appear the moment you used the off-screen dial, which would be just as easy to use and then the overall control would be much smaller in terms of screen real-estate used.
Something like a stylus is plainly useful (especially for a desktop monitor so you have no fingerprints) but the dial being tracked on-screen is something that is terribly cool to demo but I think will get almost no use in real life (except for demoing how cool it looks in action).
Since Apple already has the Pencil I half wonder if the laptops will not feature screens that work with the pencil only, no touch....

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"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Re:The Mobile Desktop by SeaFox · 2016-10-26 07:05 · Score: 1

The device itself looks really sexy, no doubt about that.
Looking more at the specs though it really seems more like a mobile device with a giant screen bolted on. It has as mentioned a 2TB laptop drive (probably) but even worse to me, the GTX 980M instead of the GTX 1080... if I'm going to go with a desktop over a laptop I really could use that extra boost (nearly twice as much processing power).
Yes the 1080 card is damn large but so fast they should have built the base around it, the base could easily be a bit larger without compromising the design.
If the machine is an all-in-one desktop. it really doesn't matter how thick it is anyway. It takes up the same horizontal and vertical space on a desk whether it's 12mm thick or has a 6" box behind the screen. 99% of people are going to have it on a desk where it will have a foot and a half or more empty space behind it (mirroring the legroom under the furniture).
Re:The Mobile Desktop by SuperKendall · 2016-10-26 07:42 · Score: 1

I would say vertical space matters a lot more for this unit than other all-in-one units, since the screen folds down to be almost flat there has to be room behind to do that - which limits the height or what is behind the screen area. But I still think there's enough height there the larger GPU could have been made to fit, with a large external power brick (which it probably has anyway because of the screen).

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"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Re:The Mobile Desktop by Khyber · 2016-10-26 07:54 · Score: 1

"with a large external power brick (which it probably has anyway because of the screen)."
Right in the summary they say internal 270W PSU.

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Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Re:The Mobile Desktop by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 16:45 · Score: 0

How is it more practical than a regular mouse with a scroll wheel?
Re:The Mobile Desktop by MindStalker · 2016-10-27 00:15 · Score: 1

Yeah, in their announcement demo they showed the dial as a virtual dial when left on the desk. So I think it probably will function fully without putting it on the screen. Though they didn't cover this fully.
Re:The Mobile Desktop by Wdomburg · 2016-10-27 03:33 · Score: 1

If you're not actually looking to position a cursor - which you likely aren't if you are using the stylus for input - the feature of a mouse becomes a detriment. To manipulate the scroll wheel without cursor manipulation requires stabilizing it with your hand first.

Re:6 minute Abs and Ludicrous Speed. by Hylandr · 2016-10-26 06:15 · Score: 1

the resolution enhancement should strive for better legibility using Verdana fonts

FTFY

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~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.

Re:$3000 BASE PRICE?!?!? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:16 · Score: 0

Both of you make good points - and I am THOROUGHLY enjoying listening to someone use an APPLE product as a baseline for value! I am a huge Apple (and honestly Microsoft too, for all their bullshit) fan, so this is highly refreshing - I'm usually the guy asking for my opponent to show me a machine honed out of a brick of aluminum with premium everything at the same price point...

apple just shit there pants! by Joe_Dragon · 2016-10-26 06:21 · Score: 0

apple just shit there pants!

MS move in for the kill with some cool looking high end workstations and servers or wait I can run windows on any X86-64 hardware that I want.

Re:apple just shit there pants! by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:32 · Score: 0

How do there pants differ from here pants?
Re:apple just shit there pants! by somenickname · 2016-10-26 06:50 · Score: 1

The only thing "high end" about this machine is the screen. Otherwise it's basically just a decent laptop with an unusual amount of RAM and a super fancy screen. It only has a 270W PSU and the rest of the system reflects that: Mobile GPU instead of a desktop GPU and the CPU is a quad core desktop (or maybe even mobile) CPU instead of 1-2 Xeon CPUs.
Though, I understand your confusion. For the price of this thing, you could build a very high end workstation with four times the RAM, four times the number cores and at least one high end GPU. Unless you need the features the screen offers, this thing is a complete waste for most people who shell out that kind of money for a workstation.
Re:apple just shit there pants! by Barlo_Mung_42 · 2016-10-26 15:28 · Score: 1

This is aimed at the pro artist set who use Wacom Cintiqs. It's only $200 cheaper than a Cintiq which doesn't come with a computer.
As you noted it's clearly not aimed at you.

Re:6 minute Abs and Ludicrous Speed. by goombah99 · 2016-10-26 06:22 · Score: 2

There's a reason Serif fonts were invented. It wasn't style. it was readability of small type back when paper cost money.

--
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.

Re:$3000 BASE PRICE?!?!? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:22 · Score: 0

Did you add in the price for Apple's touch screen and digitizer? No? Oh, right - they don't have one.

re: Includes 28" display by King_TJ · 2016-10-26 06:27 · Score: 1

No ... I get that, and I do see where a lot of people claim the price tag for a touch-enabled screen of this density is a "$2,700+ value by itself".

But my point is that you're getting the (presumably pretty amazing looking) display and the digitizer functionality here as part of a $4K computer expense, but over on the Mac side, you're getting some other things instead, like a true workstation/server class CPU and a system designed and optimized to run Mac OS X instead of MS Windows. Plus, again, don't forget that the Mac Pro came out almost 2 years ago now and nothing about it has changed since then .... It was a better "value for the dollar" back then that it is today. You could buy a fairly nice IPS 4K panel for the Mac Pro for under $500, making the whole system less than $300 more than this new Surface desktop.

Conclusion? We've definitely got a market out there willing to pay $4K or so for a personal computer, despite all the nay-sayers, and it's not just some "crazy Mac thing because they always charge insanely high prices for no reason".

Re:6 minute Abs and Ludicrous Speed. by Hylandr · 2016-10-26 06:28 · Score: 1

I detest the latest trend of making fonts on the screen unreadable, but compared to Serif I find Verdana much easier on the eyes. Have you tired it ?

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~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.

limited upgradeability by Dusthead+Jr. · 2016-10-26 06:28 · Score: 1

If I was richer and didn't care about gaming I'd be on this. But it has one flaw that don't manifest until years later when you might want to upgrade. I bought a tablet PC 10 years ago andI loved it for painting in Photoshop, but as I tried to do more layered work it couldn't keep up. I really wish I could take the display off and plug it into my desktop.

Re:$3000 BASE PRICE?!?!? by DaHat · 2016-10-26 06:29 · Score: 1

but... but... gorilla arms!

After you are used to a touch based device, sometimes, especially when you are not immediately sitting in front of it (say... same room?) it's just more natural to be able to reach over and touch the screen on occasion to do something, rather than reach for your mouse, find your cursor then move it to the desired location.

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Dude! MS got Satan on stage with it! by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:31 · Score: 0

https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp...

Re:$3000 BASE PRICE?!?!? by TheFakeTimCook · 2016-10-26 06:35 · Score: 1

From the actual article -- "includes a 28" display with 13.5 million pixels at a 4500x3000 resolution"

The standard 4k resolution mentioned was a comparison, not part of the spec of the Surface. As for the price comparison, please add in the cost of a high-definition screen-based digitiser to the Apple iMac spec and get back to us. Oh, the iMacs don't have a built-in screen digitiser as an option? Oops.

Still a significantly less number of pixels than the 5k iMac.

And do we know the resolution of the digitizer? Does it actually meet or exceed the resolution of the display?

And I would bet that real graphics professionals will still want to use a dedicated graphics tablet, rather than get a bunch of hand-prints all over their screen to use a half-baked built-in digitizer.

Oh, and the price of a multi-touch digitizer for a 5k iMac? Howabout $200?

Now I have no idea how good that is; but considering the number of 4 and 5 star reviews on Amazon, I would bet that it is at least as good as the typical crap that MS has been building into their other Surface products, like the Surface Pro 4. Which is to say, not so wonderful.

Ok, add iPad Pro - still less by SuperKendall · 2016-10-26 06:37 · Score: 1

Adding an iPad pro (which has excellent digitization with the Apple Pencil) brings it just under that cost... only you can take the iPad Pro somewhere with you and sketch in a coffee shop or wherever.

I'd still rather have a really excellent laptop and an iPad pro instead of this desktop (or an iMac for that matter), then you have two screens with you wherever you go if you like, or just a tablet or just a laptop.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:Ok, add iPad Pro - still less by avandesande · 2016-10-26 08:01 · Score: 2

The ipad pro can't run the full version of photoshop so it is functionally useless. Nobody wants to have to transfer files on and off there digitizer to edit them.

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love is just extroverted narcissism
Re:Ok, add iPad Pro - still less by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 08:38 · Score: 0

First time I have ever seen anybody say they would actually like to have an ipad pro lol takes a lot of "courage" to compare that piece of shit to a 28inch hi gamut digitizer that generally sells for over $2000 for an equivalent monitor alone.
Re:Ok, add iPad Pro - still less by chispito · 2016-10-26 09:01 · Score: 1

I'd still rather have a really excellent laptop and an iPad pro instead of this desktop (or an iMac for that matter), then you have two screens with you wherever you go if you like, or just a tablet or just a laptop.
With "Studio" in the name, I think it's clear where this was intended to be used.

--
The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
Re:Ok, add iPad Pro - still less by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 17:37 · Score: 0

Adding an iPad pro (which has excellent digitization with the Apple Pencil) brings it just under that cost... only you can take the iPad Pro somewhere with you and sketch in a coffee shop or wherever.
The iPad Pro is WAY smaller...but let me guess, it's the perfect size because it's whatever size the iPad Pro is. If Apple added Apple Pencil support to the iMac you'd be telling us how great it is and how much you love it and that it's better than everything else because Apple.

The whole computer is 12.5mm thick. by SeaFox · 2016-10-26 06:38 · Score: 1

Microsoft's first Surface-branded desktop PC now exists, and it is called the Surface Studio. The PC features a 28" display with 13.5 million pixels, which means the display is roughly 63 percent denser than a "4K" screen at 3840x2160 resolution. That screen is also an astonishing 12.5mm thick.

When I hear "desktop" I think a CPU chassis separate from a monitor. So to say the screen is 12.5mm thick isn't very impressive in a world of sub-1cm thick smartphones. The summary should convey this is an all-in-one machine instead of a "plain" desktop, so that thickness is for the display and the PC hardware mounted behind it as well.

Re:The whole computer is 12.5mm thick. by Nemyst · 2016-10-26 06:51 · Score: 1

The hardware's in the base, not in the screen. The screen is still very thin comparatively to basically any screen you can find out there, and that's in spite of requiring a much stronger structure than a 5" smartphone.
Re:The whole computer is 12.5mm thick. by thegarbz · 2016-10-26 06:56 · Score: 1

So to say the screen is 12.5mm thick isn't very impressive in a world of sub-1cm thick smartphones
It is actually very impressive when you consider the number of sub 1cm thick smartphones which have bent in all weird and wonderful ways. My Surface Pro has a lovely bend in it too, and that's a common problem across the top edge which has less metal on it to expose the WiFi antenna. I think someone with brains realised that maybe thickness on a 28" device which people lean on while drawing may have a benefit.
Speaking of. WTF is this so thing! It's a frigging desktop. Make it thick and durable.

Re:6 minute Abs and Ludicrous Speed. by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:40 · Score: 0

verdana is the shit and i will fite anyone on this message board who says otherwise

back camera by u19925 · 2016-10-26 06:41 · Score: 1

How would people use back camera on this?

Re:back camera by djchristensen · 2016-10-26 07:00 · Score: 5, Funny

It's clearly for "stealth mode". Turn on the rear camera and display the image on the screen, and the computer becomes nearly invisible!

Re:6 minute Abs and Ludicrous Speed. by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 06:48 · Score: 0

If you could read Verdana so well, should you not have noticed that you spelled "tried" wrong? Just sayin'. :D

Re:$3000 BASE PRICE?!?!? by nojayuk · 2016-10-26 06:49 · Score: 1

The Zorro mutli-touch digitiser sales pitch says:

Resolution : 32767 x 32767(interpolation), 109 x 61(Physical)

It's purely on-off touch with no pressure-sensitive stylus as the MS device has and which artists and creative types want and need. That's why the CintiQ 27" digitiser display costs $2800 even though its display resolution isn't nearly as good as the Surface device.

Re:$3000 BASE PRICE?!?!? by TheFakeTimCook · 2016-10-26 06:49 · Score: 1

Did you add in the price for Apple's touch screen and digitizer? No? Oh, right - they don't have one.

Do you really think that Apple, as one of the leaders in touchscreen technology, hasn't experimented extensively with a touchscreen iMac?

There are fundamental problems with the concept when it comes to desktop and laptop use. Believe me, we wish it wasn't true, but our repeated and lengthy testing has clearly shown that it is.

That's why Apple makes both purpose-built Touch-Driven Tablets and Smartphones, with a purpose-built Touch-based OS, and mouse and trackpad-driven Desktop and Laptop computers, with a more conventional, non-touch-based OS.

But if you really want to add touch to an iMac, you can easily do so for only $200.

Nice, but they'll sell about a dozen of them by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 07:02 · Score: 0

Looks like a nice package overall, if a bit low on a few points. But who wants/need/CAN AFFORD those? This is MS trying to do Apple again, shooting at the high end where they'll sell only a few. What's going on at the low end where the Muggles can afford one?

Not courageous enough by bazorg · 2016-10-26 07:25 · Score: 5, Funny

Too many full sized USB and Ethernet ports, legacy headphone jack, Escape key... lame.

Re:Not courageous enough by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-27 06:08 · Score: 0

Now THAT'S funny! Well done, sir.

Re:6 minute Abs and Ludicrous Speed. by jellomizer · 2016-10-26 07:35 · Score: 1

What ever was the reasoning... Serif fonts are now considered the "Formal" font. so we now should be properly reproducing them.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.

Re:This is all I have to say by Applehu+Akbar · 2016-10-26 07:43 · Score: 1

I thing you need to reset Cortana Dictation.

Re:6 minute Abs and Ludicrous Speed. by Hylandr · 2016-10-26 07:48 · Score: 1

TBH, I am extremely tired right now. I am pretty sure my brain did that deliberately to try and get my attention. :)

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~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.

How can you tell when Panos Panay is lying? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 07:51 · Score: 0

His lips are moving.

MS the new Apple? by future+assassin · 2016-10-26 07:58 · Score: 1

Say it ain't so oh oh oh...

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by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*

Re:MS the new Apple? by Wdomburg · 2016-10-27 03:36 · Score: 1

If Microsoft was the new Apple they would keep the OS exclusive to their hardware.

how many fu**ng microsh*t articles are we going by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 08:03 · Score: 0

to have in a row? enough with the chilling please.

Most important .... by angel'o'sphere · 2016-10-26 08:07 · Score: 0

Does it run Mac OS X?
Otherwise Linux would perhaps be an option ... or Free BSD or Open Solaris.

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.

Re:Most important .... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 17:38 · Score: 0

Why would anyone want an OS like Mac OS X on something like this. Apple don't do touch and digitizers well which is what has made Wacom so successful. Linux is an even worse choice.

I thought I'll never see the day by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 08:10 · Score: 0

I thought I'll never see the day Apple and Microsoft swapped places.

Re:6 minute Abs and Ludicrous Speed. by Hylandr · 2016-10-26 08:29 · Score: 1

Serif fonts are now considered the "Formal" font. so we now should be properly reproducing them.

That's bullshit.

I am not going to reduce readability for the sake of other persons concept of what is 'fashionable' in type-face. I accept no self-described 'authority' on the subject. Period.

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~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.

Yes it can... by SuperKendall · 2016-10-26 08:44 · Score: 0

The ipad pro can't run the full version of photoshop so it is functionally useless.

The iPad pro can in fact use the full version of Photoshop when it's being used as a second screen with a Mac running Duet, which I do all the time.

Or get an app like Astropad.

Rather curmudgeonly of you to not realize how flexible the whole system is.

But frankly you are also not realizing the strength pf drawing apps that exist for the iPad Pro already... Photoshop actually kind of sucks as just a drawing tool.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:Yes it can... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 09:41 · Score: 0

That...that isn't even close to the same thing! Are you fucking retarded? It is just a second screen, it isn't running anything, and it requires a full sized Mac to do it. Put the Kool-Aid down long enough to pull your head from your ass. Geez.
Re:Yes it can... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 13:20 · Score: 0

That...that isn't even close to the same thing! Are you fucking retarded?
No. He is an Apple fanboy, it is all about how seamless and integrated their products are together...except when you point out something they dont do, then this ass-backwards connection of one computer as a second screen to another computer using an app to remotely control the other is a feature, not an inconvenience.
It isnt about whether they workflow is good, its about whether the workflow is Apple, thats all the fanboys care about.
Re:Yes it can... by Whorelander · 2016-10-26 13:44 · Score: 1

That's a really a poor option, and rather lame to be honest. A Cintiq 13" is infinitely better for the workflow you're describing and costs less( Unless you go by the paid-for-shill-youtuber opinions that were pro iPad Pro weeks before it was released ).

And I personally prefer Painter, but to say Photoshop kind of sucks as drawing tool comes off as naive, especially given the improvements Adobe has made to its paint and drawing tools in recent years. If I want to just doodle and I'm unfamiliar with Photoshop, OK, but other than that, I can not agree. There's NOTHING on iOS that remotely touches Photoshop, let alone any desktop level graphic programs. An app is an app, so incredibly limited.

And the iPad Pro is not at all worth its cost! It's not a real computer, but cost more than one, and it's not even remotely a professional product.. If it ran OS X, or if it were half the price and included its pencil, I'd have absolute praise for it.

And the Apple Pencil while good, is by no means excellent( going by your parent comment ), not when compared to what Wacom has been making for a long time now. Its tilt-support is pathetic( it's just ON or OFF ), no barrel-rotation, no side-buttons, no eraser, no support for multi-ID support( I use 3 styluses on my Wacom Companion, which is why I prefer Painter***), it's inferior technically all around, and it needs a "battery"! Some people like its pencil form factor, I don't, it's a throw back to the Artz stylus.

***I currently use a Wacom Companion( i7 model ) and love it for all of my 2D work. It replaced my MacBook Pro 17". It's the only tablet I bring with me now when I need to go remote. It's a real computer; which of course has some trade offs, but its benefits absolutely outweigh an option like a computer + iPad. I used to lug a Cintiq 12wx around with my MacBook Pro( my backpack felt like it weighed 50 pounds. ).

And here's a newer solution for what you're getting at. :) It's the Wacom 16 Mobile Studio Pro( i7 model with a Quadro GPU ): http://www.wacom.com/en-us/pro...

It's my next portable and the first portable in a long time, not since the first Wacom Companion and Titanium Power Books, that has me drooling. It has the power of my last desktop-workstation, so I'll be able to use it for 3D modeling and moderate 3D painting work when not near my current desktop.
Re:Yes it can... by SuperKendall · 2016-10-26 14:10 · Score: 0

I'm not sure how it's not the same thing, since it's full Photoshop running on the screen with a pressure sensitive stylus controlling it.... Again the Mac + the iPad Pro is LESS than the new Surface desktop (much less if you max out the Surface specs much at all).
Slashdot sure is full of ignorant morons today! They are thick as thieves this night. Must be people front losing beer for Halloween I guess.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Re:Yes it can... by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 15:41 · Score: 0

I'm not sure how it's not the same thing
Seriously? You are really, genuinely not sure how it's not the same thing?
"everyone's an ignorant moron because I can't understand how these aren't the same thing". I like Apple products, I use them as my primary devices but it really does appear that people can end up like you where their obsession with Apple just completes fucks up their brain. I'll bet you can understand how Linux and OSX aren't the same thing or how Android and iOS aren't the same thing...but then you can't tell the difference between an iPhone and a Galaxy S because Apple tells you you can't.

Re:$3000 BASE PRICE?!?!? by chispito · 2016-10-26 08:59 · Score: 1

And I would bet that real graphics professionals will still want to use a dedicated graphics tablet, rather than get a bunch of hand-prints all over their screen to use a half-baked built-in digitizer.

You're still missing the point. The singular killer feature is the pressure sensitive pen. It's a Wacom Cintiq with a better screen and computer thrown in for good measure. There is nothing from Apple to directly compete with this unless you tether a $2000+ Cintiq to your Mac (https://www.amazon.com/Wacom-Cintiq-27QHD-DTK2700-DTK-2700/dp/B00R7QJBCS).

Maybe it's not a very large niche, but this is quite affordable for what it offers. The Dial accessory seems kind of cool too: https://www.microsoft.com/en-u...

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The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!

Re: 6 minute Abs and Ludicrous Speed. by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 09:00 · Score: 0

Serif fonts originated from imperfect tools like a chisel, a brush or a plume. We're past that, and there's no need to slow down readers with needlessly complicated shapes.

Dial? by sootman · 2016-10-26 09:44 · Score: 1

The hardware is neat, though of course the price is high. The dial, however, looks like a solution in search of a problem. I don't think it does anything you couldn't do with a gesture -- say, three fingers on the screen in a triangle, and then move them in the same way that you'd turn a dial. Like in Minority Report.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-u...

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Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.

Re:$3000 BASE PRICE?!?!? by 0123456 · 2016-10-26 09:46 · Score: 1

Besides which, touchscreens are lame after you've used a VR headset with hand-tracking.

Re:6 minute Abs and Ludicrous Speed. by sootman · 2016-10-26 09:46 · Score: 2

> I'm just waiting for someone to invent non-pixelated
> screen which just uses continuous orthogonal
> functions to paint the screen.

Once the pixel density exceeds the eye's ability to discern them as individual objects, what's the point of using another system?

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Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.

Re:$3000 BASE PRICE?!?!? by viperidaenz · 2016-10-26 09:52 · Score: 1

... and you don't get a 10 point touch screen, so it's still not great for artists who like to draw. I guess that's why it's called a Surface Studio
The iMac may be slightly higher resolution, it's slightly wider but not as high. It's 4500x3000 not 3840x2160

Re:$3000 BASE PRICE?!?!? by viperidaenz · 2016-10-26 09:58 · Score: 1

That $2000 screen is apparently a bit shit if you look at some of the Amazon reviews.

Re:$3000 BASE PRICE?!?!? by exomondo · 2016-10-26 13:26 · Score: 1

The top-of-the-line 5K Retina Display iMac is only $2299!

Can you buy an iMac with a touchscreen and active digitizer? No, now maybe that doesn't matter for you and you don't care about those things but then you wouldnt be considering a system like this in the first place now would you?

And for all that, it's only got a 3840 X 2160 display, where the iMac has a jaw-dropping 5120 X 2880 display.

No, it has a 4500x3000 screen. Now maybe your definition of "jaw-dropping" falls somewhere in between 13.5million and ~14.7million pixels.

Who woulda thought that Apple would be the less-expensive choice...

Yes let's all marvel at how a thing with less features costs less than a different thing with more features.

No it is not by SuperKendall · 2016-10-26 14:08 · Score: 0

That's a really a poor option, and rather lame to be honest

Says someone who has never tried it...

A Cintiq 13" is infinitely better for the workflow you're describing

I bought one and returned it because I found it rather sucked. Have YOU tried both solutions? The Clinttiuqe is also a nightmare of cables even if it did work better...

Now don't you feel stupid? Didn't even read the rest of what you wrote because what on earth could you possibly have ot say that's of any value? Please next time keep in mind other people have actual experience and don't talk out of your ass.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:No it is not by Whorelander · 2016-10-26 14:48 · Score: 1

I've used other Cintiqs, my Companion, even the Hybrid( so same form factor as a 13HD ), and your precious iPad Pro. I've been working in digital art since CRT tubes were a thing.

Outside of form factor, it takes a fool to invest in and iPad Pro for any serious art work. Outside of the limitations I've mentioned, its glossy screen alone is a joke. It's an overpriced TOY, that should be half the price at best. It belongs in a preschool. If it wants to be a pro tool, then put OS X on it and a matte screen.

And once you setup a Cintiq, you don't need to move it and of course my Companion and the newer models do not have cables( My old 12wx is way worse off than a 13hd and I had no problems using it.). Even when I'm drawing on paper or painting on canvas, I do so stationary. Your complaints about Photoshop and the cables being a nightmare are really shallow and show your lack of experience.

You're honestly defending using an iPad as a Cintiq replacement... The added latency alone makes that stupid as hell,

If you think I feel stupid and I'm talking out of my ass, then you must be peeping through the wrong window you sicko.
Re:No it is not by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-26 15:53 · Score: 0

That's what happens when you can only see the world through iGlasses. The only way is Apple, Wacom isn't Apple therefore it is inferior. Apple is the best for Photoshop but Photoshop sucks anyway and iPad Pro apps are better.
Re:No it is not by Anonymous Coward · 2016-10-28 02:03 · Score: 0

You did read his entire comment and he make you look like the ignorant Apple loving fool you truly are. Now, shut the fuck up and go pal around with your buddy Macs4all. Maybe you two can swap fantasies about breaking into Tim Cooks house to suck his dongle.

Re: Includes 28" display by bloodhawk · 2016-10-26 17:28 · Score: 1

you are comparing 2 different markets. this is aimed squarely at designers/artists etc that absolutely require a digitiser screen. If what you are after is a workstation with Server class CPU than you might look at a Mac Pro or IMac but at the moment most other vendors have far better offerings than Apple in this space and Microsoft doesn't make a device for that space.

Don't need/want a touch screen by grumpy-cowboy · 2016-10-27 00:55 · Score: 1

Is it just me that don't want to put my finger on my screen? When I work on a computer, I like having my screen CLEAN without any finger prints on it!

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Will $CURRENT_YEAR be the year of the Linux Desktop?

Re:6 minute Abs and Ludicrous Speed. by Wdomburg · 2016-10-27 02:29 · Score: 1

Erm, pixel war? If you read the FastCompany article, one of the designers explains that they opted for a LOWER pixel density than the most recent iMac in favor of the "true-to-scale" display.

Memory compression turned my Win10 lap decrepit! by syntotic · 2016-10-27 08:17 · Score: 1

It was working fine, now it is ar te rioscler otic and epilep ______ tic.

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Microsoft Announces Ultra-Thin, Pixel-Dense Surface Studio Touchscreen PC (arstechnica.com)

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