Windows 10's Store Locks 'Call of Duty' Purchasers Into Windows-10-Only Battles (vice.com)

An anonymous reader writes: Two Call of Duty games have been remastered for Windows 10, but if you buy them through the Windows 10 Store there's a problem. "Windows 10 Store players will be isolated from other PC versions of the game," reports the Windows Central site, noting a statement from Microsoft which implies that the decision was made by Activision.

"For unknown reasons, Windows 10 Store customers are segregated from customers who bought the game from Steam, which is by far the most popular platform on PC," reports Motherboard. "Call of Duty fans who made the unfortunate of mistake of giving Microsoft their cash are left sitting in lonely multiplayer lobbies waiting for games that'll never start."
Motherboard reports that at least one player successfully requested a refund, calling the situation "another black eye for a digital storefront that PC gamers already avoid like the plague."

Comments

What we need

[aliquis]

... is to get all of our games on all platforms.

The developers simply need to allow for this to happen.

(I don't mean on console but from all the store front-ends whatever Steam, Microsoft or GOG, but sure bought game available on all consoles and PC would be great.)

Re:What we need

[Mashiki]

... is to get all of our games on all platforms.

The developers simply need to allow for this to happen.

There's nothing stopping developers from doing this now. The a couple of reasons it doesn't happen though. One is because multiple large developers all want their own ecosystem for digital downloads. That in itself is good since it helps with the cost of the games in the end, and in most cases leads to significant discounts. See the 20% off or more on titles from places like Greenmangaming, Gamersgate or Gamesrepublic vs say Steam, Origin or Ubi's thingy. Now getting all games on all platforms? More difficult, since developing for multiple platforms becomes expensive. Especially since consoles require a "buy-in" to develop on and for every patch they require you to pay for certification of said patch. Something that doesn't exist on PC's. Steam, Origin or Ubi's, etc., storefronts all take a cut but that's a one-time cut for each sale. Unless it's sold through a 3rd party/authorized reseller. The whole buy-in/patch certification stuff is something that can add a huge amount of cost to a developer, and for small developers failing on a single platform in terms of sales can be enough to cause them to fail financially. You might be able to float $150-450k+cut of each game sold on one console, on 3 consoles? Nope.

Re: What we need

[ArmoredDragon]

I'm with Tim Sweeney though, UWP has so many limitations and artificial restrictions that if it were to ever catch on, it would be disastrous not only for PC gaming, but software in general.

So, anything but Microsoft.

Re:What we need

[Calydor]

Getting all games on all platforms is not feasible, no.

But why the flying hell can't the SAME GAME on PS4, XB1, Windows Store and Steam just ... just play TOGETHER?

FF14 has managed to do it, although I'm told Sony really didn't like the idea - but they have PS3, PS4 and PC players on the same servers. They then have OTHER problems if you want to, say, migrate your standalone PC account to Steam, but that's a whole other can of worms.

Re:What we need

[lgw]

One is because multiple large developers all want their own ecosystem for digital downloads. That in itself is good since it helps with the cost of the games in the end, and in most cases leads to significant discounts.

OK, your UID is too low to be an astroturf account, so, seriously, you're advocating a distribution monopoly as the key to low prices? Really?

See the 20% off or more on titles from places like Greenmangaming, Gamersgate or Gamesrepublic vs say Steam, Origin or Ubi's thingy

Wait, maybe you worded the first quote wrong or something? Origin is EA's "own ecosystem for digital downloads" and unsurprisingly isn't big on discounts. Steam OTOH is famous for "80% off" sales for older games. I have hundreds of Steam games, lots of them big-budget titles, but my average purchase price is well under $10.

Now getting all games on all platforms? More difficult, since developing for multiple platforms becomes expensive. Especially since consoles require a "buy-in" to develop on and for every patch they require you to pay for certification of said patch

Overlap between console peasant gaming and PC overlords isn't necessarily good for game quality, and mobile gaming is the same deal - three different worlds with three different ideals for good UI and good gameplay.

OTOH, making all "PC games" available for Windows, Mac, and Linux is certainly worthwhile. Smaller devs might not be able to afford to test everything thoroughly on three platforms and be wiling to stand behind it, but that's what value-added distributers like GOG could come in. GOG, for the old games they sell, does the work to make DOS and early Windows games work well on modern Windows (and they're starting to do that for Mac, but again for old games). There's certainly room for a Mac-specific GOG-like, that makes indie games run flawlessly on Mac for a larger cut. Ditto Linux. For an indie dev, that's still more money coming in than not being on that platform at all.

Re:What we need

[Lothsahn]

It doesn't work in some genres, especially for PvP.

Let's take Overwatch, for example. PS4 and XBOX gamers, using a game controller, are at a significant disadvantage as compared to mouse/keyboard. For instance, Torbjiorn got a nerf on consoles, but not on PC, because people can track and aim more quickly on PC, negating his advantage there. So you may not want to matchmaker those people together, as the PC gamers will, on average, own the console gamers.

But for Windows Store and Steam not getting matched together? Yeah, that's insanity.

Re:What we need

[Shadow of Eternity]

Because PC players would simply curbstomp console players all the time.

Re:What we need

[Ramze]

Because it's been tried and PC gamers had a serious edge over console gamers. Think about it -- crappy console joysticks and various size TVs vs keyboards with lots of buttons, options, macros, and a mouse with multiple buttons -- not to mention the possible screen setups like multi-monitors.

For PVP, Starcraft console players would be smoked by PC players.

Also, the head's up display (HUD) is usually very different for console vs pc. And PC players have options for outside-game chat and voice programs that let teams coordinate or stealthily share info better.

Re:What we need

[wisnoskij]

Makes sense to me. People with severe mental handicaps, will on average tend to own their normally functioning peers. So it only makes sense to section off the Windows Store users.

Re: What we need

[Dahamma]

No one will use UWP for serious 3D games - Angry Birds, sure. CoD, never.

We tried to make a cross-platform video streaming app with it and it took 6-8 months longer than expected (mostly due to Microsoft bugs and limitations, as you said) and in the end STILL didn't actually work properly on most "Windows 10" devices. We couldn't even get it to work properly on all Windows 10 Surface Pro tablets and PCs (let alone non-x86 tablets and phones). Made Android platform fragmentation seem simple in comparison.

Re:What we need

[Anonymous Coward]

"Let's take Overwatch, for example. PS4 and XBOX gamers, using a game controller, are at a significant disadvantage as compared to mouse/keyboard. "

Yeah because consoles are completely unable to release mouse and keyboard attachments for their consoles.

Forget that dreamcast thing. It's totally, physically, impossible I tell you!

Re:What we need

[meerling]

Hmmm... Doesn't that PS4 have actual usb ports that you can plug a normal mouse or keyboard into? I've been told it does, but I don't have a PS4. Or maybe that was the PS3. I don't recall exactly, but one of the console jockeys out there can clarify that for us.

Re:What we need

[Calydor]

And PC players have options for outside-game chat and voice programs that let teams coordinate or stealthily share info better.

When I was a kid that was called a TELEPHONE. I agree with the rest of what you said, but please don't make it sound like console players have exactly zero options for voice communication.

Re:What we need

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes the PS4 (as well as the PS3) has normal USB-ports and you can plug keyboards and mouse into them. BUT the game has to support KB&M controls for it to make a difference and most doesn't.

Re:What we need

[HornWumpus]

Games with PC versions still don't support KB&M on consoles.

The controller users just won't have it.

Re:What we need

[AK Marc]

If I buy from Steam and get the Steam-only version, when I in-game purchase, Steam will take the money and deliver the goods. When I buy from MS, and purchase in-game, MS gets the cash and delivers the goods. The problem is with in-game purchases (and a lesser extent, gaming experience, where MS may have different rules on chat and such than Steam).

I predict the people here will say they should just get along, but that'd be asking direct competitors to get along when it comes to competing for customers.

Re:What we need

[Anonymous Coward]

Could always add an option of mouse, gamepad, or mixed. I always assumed the issue was more of MS and Sony don't want to share servers

Re:What we need

[eth1]

Getting all games on all platforms is not feasible, no.

But why the flying hell can't the SAME GAME on PS4, XB1, Windows Store and Steam just ... just play TOGETHER?

FF14 has managed to do it, although I'm told Sony really didn't like the idea - but they have PS3, PS4 and PC players on the same servers. They then have OTHER problems if you want to, say, migrate your standalone PC account to Steam, but that's a whole other can of worms.

Well, aside from the input device inequality that others have mentioned. Keeping multiplayer games in sync requires the clients to be pretty deterministic. Not just deterministic, but in exactly the same way. It's bad enough between Windows, MacOS and Linux all on relatively similar x86-based hardware. Adding in a bunch of console OSes and hardware just makes it worse. Segregating the consoles is the simple way to simplify things.

Re:What we need

[Anonymous Coward]

Fun thing about that is the controller users don't have to play with a keyboard and mouse, and if it becomes THAT big a deal (competitiveness), then any matchmaking system implemented can allow people to avoid matches with people of different controller options. (And I dare say it can be set up so that it auto-kicks someone who tries to change controller mid-match. Hackers will be hackers, but this would be sufficient for legit players.)

Re:What we need

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what Microsoft gets from boasting its one operating system for all hardware. Wasn't Windows 10 meant to be a Desktop and a Laptop and a Tablet and a Smartphone and a Game Console and a Virtual Reality and a Augmented Reality OS? Wouldn't it be an unfair advantage for Steam On PC players competing with Windows 10 smart phones?

Re:What we need

[Anonymous Coward]

FF14 has managed to do it

I kick console players from my groups. They drag the group down even in an easy PVE game like FF14.

Re: What we need

[Anonymous Coward]

That explains your face

Re:What we need

[tnok85]

Yeah, I played with a guy in FFXIV who played on console. He set up his laptop next to his TV so he could join Teamspeak with us.

Re:What we need

[rtb61]

Because, as was warned many years ago, M$ is on the path of turning a PC you buy and then buy windows anal probe 10 and install it on there into a XBone and you will be boned, paying double digit licence fees on top of the invasion of privacy for any software that runs on top of Windows (don't forget they can not un-install any software on you computer with each compulsory upgrade, you agreed to it). They are actively working towards blocking software and content that has not paid a windows licence fee, manage to get around the block, no problem next compulsory upgrade they will fix that for you. Windows 10 is FUBAR as a end user operating system.

Re:What we need

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly.

Buy once, play anywhere. There is some form of this happening with GOG/STEAM and STEAM/PSN but not much.

Ultimately if I buy a game on GOG, I want to be able to play it on STEAM and vice versa, and not have to buy it twice, but if the game also comes out for iOS, XBOX and MacOS, I want it to be available to play on those platforms without purchasing it 3 more times as well.

Nintendo is really the only time I've not cared about buying a game multiple times (I've purchased FF6 and Super Mario World at least three times, despite owning the SNES cartridge, and have had every opportunity to play it on emulators) But I draw the line had having to buy a game once for the Wii U and once again for the 3DS, that was just incredibly stupid on the part of Nintendo and likely cost them sales because people with both only bought the 3DS version because of multiplayer.

On the PC however, there is no excuse, what-so-ever, to make a game exclusive to Microsoft or EA's stores. If you buy it once, release a cross-license key for other stores that can only be redeemed by launching the game on the platform it was purchased on and select "spawn new license", that gives you a key to download the game from the other store, but requires linking it to this copy to play it. This could also be used to "child copy" games to additional devices that will be used by others in the same apartment/house, but you don't want them buying games with your credit card. How do you prevent others from just copying the game hundreds of times? That's why it's linked to the original license. Only one copy can be played at a time, and the original license gets preference. This is how Steam kinda works already, but it's a bit more complicated than that.

Blizzard had the right idea with Warcraft II, install the game, but it's only a full game when the disc is in the drive, you can only play with (someone) who has the original copy. This can be adapted to modern games by doing a multicast search to see if the original license is on the network and if it's not found, refusing to play. The owner could transfer the license "master" to whatever device they want, and the spawned copies in the house will still only work as long as the master copy is available. Steam could sit there and listen for "license verification check" or Microsoft's store, or Apple's store, or whatever else.

Would it stop piracy? no not really, but it would make it a hell of a lot less annoying than buying the game multiple times, and then when the developer goes bankrupt or the (third party) license expires, you can still move the license between devices you still own.

Re:What we need

[Anonymous Coward]

FF14 matches people with controllers and those using keyboards.

Now, given there is one specific thing about FF14 that makes it not suck like all the FPS games out there. FF14 doesn't have any "platform exclusiveness" features. So unfortunately this allows hackers/cheaters on the PC to fuck with the overall game environment, but makes it difficult for cheaters to actually get ahead since other players will not tolerate cheating, and kick players that do.

In FPS/Arena type games, most of the cheating happens exclusively on one platform (that being the PC) so it makes the support costs less by isolating the PC versions from everyone else. In a few very specific cases, someone with a $5000 computer rig has a substantially unfair advantage over the kids playing on a laptop. And MMO games are frequently played on substandard devices because they are played by kids. That is why the Xbox/PS versions of games tend to be the worst version of the game when compared to the high end PC, but the far better version of the game compared to anyone playing on a laptop.

Re:What we need

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, it's because PC players overwhelmingly cheat and don't see it as cheating.

Think about macro keyboards, hacked video drivers (to see through walls), monitors that have targeting circles on them, voice chat (eg teamspeak and such) etc.

However this just shows a lack of good judgement by the developers. MMORPG's tend to have rampant cheating because bots are made that interface directly into the game code or memory space, or emulate the mouse and keyboard by watching the game on another computer and sending input based on the visual data, often decoded from the network packets, and so forth.

Literately the PC is the inferior platform for playing fair, and this is where all the MMO's are. Some games try to prevent cheating, others don't care enough and use mitigation strategies (most cheating is incredibly stupid) and others use a combination of the two (eg WoW/OverWatch) by looking for people who brag about cheating outside of the game.

Re:What we need

[Anonymous Coward]

No argument mouse/keyboard will beat controllers in PvP games, but it has been done successfully before. Unreal Tournament on PS3 was cross-play with PC, and they achieved this by:

1. Mouse/keyboard support on the PS3.

2. Allowing lobbies to set a specific controller type and then letting players filter available games by this type.

Re:What we need

[Anonymous Coward]

GOG hasn't been testing anything. I'm not sure where you're getting that idea. They just put up whatever the developer hands them.

They have in fact been releasing pretty much all DOSBOX software in non-optimal states (not even aspect ratio correction turned on) let alone setting up the music card correctly so that it doesn't become a cat-on-a-piano

The ideal scheme is for there to eventually be a FOSS tool more like Unity that covers the actual "multiplatform" logic. Not like SDL (SDL only covers the machine initialization, and doesn't do much for dealing with widely disproportionately powered devices) where you select a target platform and the development environment takes into consideration what the maximum and minimum capabilities are projected towards the release date.

EG, let's say I want to release "Final Fantasy 16-2" or something like that, a game that would logically look and work best on the highest end hardware, but for some stupid reason I want it to work on rubbish Android phones.
I would let the development environment pick "Samsung Galaxy 9" and project from the current 7 where the performance should be and create a package that at "most" will support the G9 but minimally needs a G7. Anything that comes out 2 years after the G9 will still get the performance of the G9. If you don't have a G7 you won't get a refund if you try to return the game, but you can push that license to another device. So let's say you also have an iPhone 8, something that beats the pants off the G9, you take your license to the Apple store and redeem that code, download the iPhone 8/iPad Pro 6th generation device and it would work perfectly because there is only one device configuration to expect. Now let's say that 2 years from that I buy a new phone, say the Phone 9, the game is still on the store, and I redownload it, it's still only going to take advantage of the features that were available in the 8. But then I get a 8K UHD television and hook my Mac (yes laugh) up to it. Because the development environment of 4 years ago only projected 2 years in advance, it would be looking for a 2018 model Mac, and since Apple still uses Onboard Intel graphics on it's lowend macs, the lowest configuration is actually lower than that of the Samsung Galaxy 7, but the highest configuration only assumed a 5K monitor. Because PC/Mac Graphics is highly variable ,the game actually has all the assets necessary to produce an 8K output in the release version, but if the GPU isn't up to the task it drops it back down to 4K or HD.

And that is how development environment should work. It should go, how can I scale this from a POS android phone all the way up to some wiseass with a $5000 PC running two Geforce 1080's in SLI. Since there is limited storage space on a phone or a console, and a phone/console is never going to be upgraded with more storage or memory, the development environment can strip the package down to just what that device is capable of. For PC's which vary from rubbish to overkill, you would have to export the full game, but ideally you would be able to download just the game engine/profiler to the PC first and have it download only the parts that the PC will benefit from. If someone has a 4K or 8K monitor, but has a iGPU, then the profiler will not see a way to run the game at 4K and not download the 4K asset package, the player however may choose to download it anyway because they haven't bought a new GPU yet and need to justify it. Someone who plays the game only at 4K won't need the 720p or 1080p asset package.

Re:What we need

[Anonymous Coward]

Is Steam or parent company Valve, developing any games right now? At least developers associated with MS Studios are bringing out new titles.

Re:What we need

[Anonymous Coward]

... then any matchmaking system implemented can allow people to avoid matches with people of different controller options.

You can buy a programmable usb interface (forgot name) that pretends to be a controller but actually accepts input from KBAM. A friend of mine got it and started playing battlefield. He is an OK player, but he was MURDERING people on consoles. As far as I know there is no way to detect an interface like that short of baning people based on some weird statistical analysis.

Re:What we need

[Anonymous Coward]

Sometimes there is a technology barrier. It doesn't account for all cases, but some notable little games like Minecraft started out using Java as a little project. I don't think anyone could have predicted its amazing success and market share, and yet its still stuck on Java at its heart. What to do when you want to port the game to a console or tablet that doesn't have Java or Java performance just isn't there to make the game playable? Re-write the code from scratch of course... Now the two versions are incompatible, the development teams have implemented things in different ways and there appears no hope that pocket editions will ever talk to the same servers as the PC versions based on java...

Re:What we need

[aliquis]

Greenmangaming, Gamersgate and Gamesrepublic sell Steam keys.

What I meant was that have access to the titles you've already bought in the distribution platforms they exist on, that is being able to fetch and run your game through Steam, the Microsoft one, the Apple one(?), GOG, Origin, Uplay.

Re:What we need

[Anonymous Coward]

>Ultimately if I buy a game on GOG, I want to be able to play it on STEAM and vice versa
>but if the game also comes out for iOS, XBOX and MacOS, I want it to be available to play on those platforms without purchasing it 3 more times as well.

Retard detected.

Re:What we need

[Ash-Fox]

Nope, it's because PC players overwhelmingly cheat and don't see it as cheating.

I can't find any real sources to support your information.

Re:What we need

[Ash-Fox]

Because it's been tried and PC gamers had a serious edge over console gamers. Think about it -- crappy console joysticks and various size TVs vs keyboards with lots of buttons, options, macros, and a mouse with multiple buttons -- not to mention the possible screen setups like multi-monitors.

I have a XIM4 and play Destiny, Star Wars: Battlefront, Titanfall, Overwatch etc. with a keyboard and mouse on my PS4. Some of these games are smart enough to rank your performance sufficiently (In this case, Overwatch and Titanfall) to put you against equally skilled people. As a console gamer, I don't see the problem you're talking about really, outside of games doing poor match making which lead to equally poor experiences on people who are exclusively on controllers too.

Re:What we need

[Ash-Fox]

Games with PC versions still don't support KB&M on consoles.

Final Fantasy XIV on my console does.

The controller users just won't have it.

I have a XIM4 for those games. It's more important to have games that have proper match making than care about what controller they're using in my opinion.

Re:What we need

[Ash-Fox]

I just use one of these for my TeamSpeak push-to-talk key, with a headset that can support two inputs so I can have audio from both my PC running teamspeak and the PS4 for FFXIV.

Re:What we need

[Ash-Fox]

It doesn't work in some genres, especially for PvP.

I don't believe you.

Let's take Overwatch, for example. PS4 and XBOX gamers, using a game controller, are at a significant disadvantage as compared to mouse/keyboard.

I play Overwatch on the PS4 with a keyboard and mouse thanks to the XIM4 (I won't play FPSes without keyboard and mouse), the match making system is capable of determining my capability sufficiently well and matches with players who are very similar in capability to me without any issues, the games are often close and I don't feel significantly advantaged, nor disadvantaged (as opposed to the matchmaking of certain other games which are also in the FPS genere).

Re:What we need

[Mashiki]

I don't believe you.

The reality is on consoles, even with people using a m/k on a console. The people using controllers? Developers have to add extra gimmicks to get them onto the same playing field. Whether it's a bump in life, less damage dealt to them, aim assist, larger hitboxes, doesn't matter. There's dozens of articles on it from different people who work on the industry. This is probably one of the most famous though. To put it simply, no matter the advantage given to a person playing on a console. They got their ass beat into the ground by even mediocre players on the PC.

Re:What we need

[KozmoStevnNaut]

How the hell is using a macro keyboard or painting a target circle on your monitor the same as cheating?

Turbo function controllers have existed for consoles for decades, and what's stopping you from putting a target circle on your TV?

It sounds to me like you just can't compete, and thus you resort to calling everyone else cheaters.

Re:What we need

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's take Overwatch, for example. PS4 and XBOX gamers, using a game controller, are at a significant disadvantage as compared to mouse/keyboard.

My old Playstation 2 has USB-ports for a keyboard and mouse. Is that not the case for newer consoles? Likewise, my PC has two controllers.

It seems to me that the split should not be PC vs console, but keyboard vs controller. Or match-making based on current level (which will depend on the preferred input method).

Re:What we need

[SharpFang]

There were some experiments with connecting FPS games across platforms - XBox and PC players in the same matches.

The experiments ended very quickly. The PC gamer, using keyboard and mouse, would literally mop the floor the with console player, who had to use the controller for aiming.

There are some genres where cross-platform multiplayer is okay, but shooters like CoD are definitely out - it's impossible to balance the gameplay between platforms without silly solutions like forcing PC players to use controllers... which would probably result in nearly no PC sales.

Re:What we need

[SharpFang]

The problem is the standard setup: Console + TV set + couch in front of the TV, maybe a coffee table, too low to operate a mouse and keyboard comfortably; PC + desk with keyboard and mouse.

The fact the device can be plugged in and supported by the hardware doesn't help if using it requires entirely rearranging your 'entertainment center'.

Re:What we need

[Anonymous Coward]

Because most games don't write their own social networking servers. Yes they have control of the multiplayer server, but that is just responsible for getting packets between two games that have already been connected. You usually have another server/network where people can create friends lists, and invite people to join their game. Most games don't bother with this because it would be yet another network for gamers to have to manage, and it is largely unnecessary given that every platform you are on already has these type of services baked in (XBoxLive, PSN, Steam, etc).

When you want cross play, the game team has to do some type of matching that says "this steam id maps to this internal game id, and this microsoft store id maps to this internal game id" and then match those two players together. Then the developer has to make sure this mapping stays in sync, even if the server goes down, so that reconnects can happen.

It's not "hard" work, per se, but it is work and it can take a decent amount of time to get right. When developers think that few people will actually utilize the feature, that stuff gets prioritized down to the bottom. If the developer questions how big that platform will be, features for that platform become a lower priority.

It's easy to think "developers are lazy", but in reality most games don't make money and they are simply trying to triage features. Most developers would love to have all this working, but that costs time, money, and manpower which are always in short supply.

Re:What we need

[Anonymous Coward]

AC here - Reading that last sentence - I would think COD would be big enough to justify this work, as it does make excellent money. I can understand them not supporting it for a remaster which might have an anemic player base already, so making it work on Windows Store doesn't make sense. But for Infinite Warfare, it seems like that would be an oversight.

In this case, most likely the case was that they had a hard date to hit, and to hit that certain features had to be dropped. Activision isn't going to hold up one of their main money makers to make sure that the Windows Store version is at parity, and they probably aren't going to delay release and spend more money on Windows Store if it hasn't proven to be a main contributor to sales (you have to ask who would purchase a Windows Store version when there is no impediment to purchasing the steam version).

My guess is Activision got some money from Microsoft to just have the game on the store at all, otherwise, they probably wouldn't have done it, because there is very little value add for Activision to do so. So they did the minimum they had to to fulfill the contract.

Re:What we need

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Games with PC versions still don't support KB&M on consoles.

The controller users just won't have it.

Had the first Max Payne on both console (son) and PC. The console was unplayable while the PC an FPS delight.

Re:What we need

[Xest]

That was always the theory but Shadowrun supported Xbox 360 / PC cross-play and on the 360 I never found myself particularly disadvantaged against PC players, if there was a gulf it certainly never showed up in the end of game scoreboards - you'd have expected PC players to, on average, position higher than Xbox gamers, but it never really happened. The spread was always pretty even.

The biggest problem as I see it for cross-play in general is cheating - people on PS4 wouldn't be happy if for example the Xbox One got hacked and smothered in aimbots, or vice versa with the Xbox One and the PS4 getting hacked, or both consoles and the higher rate of PC hacks and cheats.

Unless you can guarantee an equivalent level of security across all systems cross-play is just going to result in players demanding segregation again because they wont want to play against cheats on another platform.

Re:What we need

[Xest]

On the Xbox One you can already Skype chat in the background and completely bypass game and party chat, the latter of which runs in isolation to games and does nothing to prevent covert information sharing anyway. Only game chat enforces limitations.

Re:What we need

[Cederic]

Aside from the comedy of calling voice chat 'cheating', just because certain techniques are available doesn't mean that players use them.

In decades of online gaming I've seen very few actual cheats. I've admittedly seen a fair few people that were trying to cheat, but usually they end up being easy prey to the people that recognise that some form of automated play is occurring and exploit the weaknesses in the automation.

Nothing quite like tricking a World of Tanks bot into shooting its team mates, for instance.

Re:What we need

[Cederic]

Yes, but sadly not the person to whom you're replying.

What's wrong with wanting to buy a form of entertainment and not be restricted to a specific device? MP3s don't need to be re-purchased to work on your iPod, your mobile phone, your PC, your in-home streaming speakers. A film in MP4 doesn't need to be re-purchased to work on your TV, your other TV, the TV in your kitchen, your tablet and your PC.

Why should games be locked to a single device? Why shouldn't a game that runs on multiple OSes be bought and run on multiple OSes?

Shit, many of the games I own on Steam run on Windows or Linux or OSX, and I sure as shit didn't buy three copies of them. Is adding in Android or a PS4 really so much to ask?

Re:What we need

[Mashiki]

OK, your UID is too low to be an astroturf account, so, seriously, you're advocating a distribution monopoly as the key to low prices? Really?

K, you're really not that stupid are you? If the definition of monopoly is more digital storefronts then there are owners of major US media corporations it's not a monopoly is it. That's not counting sites that sell keys that work on those storefronts.

Wait, maybe you worded the first quote wrong or something? Origin is EA's "own ecosystem for digital downloads" and unsurprisingly isn't big on discounts. Steam OTOH is famous for "80% off" sales for older games. I have hundreds of Steam games, lots of them big-budget titles, but my average purchase price is well under $10

Well, Origin offers discounts all the time. They also offer coupons -- something that Steam doesn't directly offer which will work with most titles. Rather steam "gifts" coupons which you can apply to a product. Steam is famous for that, so is GoG. And Origin is famous for giving away games too. Keep in mind that Steam also doesn't have anything to do with the sales price outside of their initial cut(steam takes 30%--which is far less then other storefronts), every part of that is on the developers side.

Overlap between console peasant gaming and PC overlords isn't necessarily good for game quality, and mobile gaming is the same deal - three different worlds with three different ideals for good UI and good gameplay.

Of course it isn't. Kind of the original point I was making, the key thing that stops it though is buy-in costs. Look at several small studio releases and how it fucked up one, for the case of the other.

OTOH, making all "PC games" available for Windows, Mac, and Linux is certainly worthwhile. Smaller devs might not be able to afford to test everything thoroughly on three platforms and be wiling to stand behind it, but that's what value-added distributers like GOG could come in. GOG, for the old games they sell, does the work to make DOS and early Windows games work well on modern Windows (and they're starting to do that for Mac, but again for old games). There's certainly room for a Mac-specific GOG-like, that makes indie games run flawlessly on Mac for a larger cut. Ditto Linux. For an indie dev, that's still more money coming in than not being on that platform at all.

Most developers can't afford it. When they can afford it though, it's usually down the line when sales expectations have been exceeded and they can blow $50-100k to port it over to another platform and do UI changes. FYI GoG doesn't sell just "old games" it hasn't for a while. They'll sell any game that doesn't have DRM, that's their only bar for entry to their site.

Re:What we need

[Mashiki]

Greenmangaming, Gamersgate and Gamesrepublic sell Steam keys.

They also sell keys that work for Blizzard, Rockstar, Origin, Ubisoft's store, desura, and several others.

In many cases, developers will give you a key if you show that you have prior ownership. And the game is "locked" to a particular ecosystem. Say, only on the apple store and steam store. And you just bought a new apple system and want to get the copy on the apple store. Filing a tech support email works 99% of the time. Hell, I've got a steel collectors box of "Return to Castle Wolfenstin" and I sent an email to Bethesda with a picture of the jewel case, box, and CD and they sent me a key for steam, and asked if I'd like one for the DRM free version from Humble Bundle.

Re:What we need

[lgw]

It's only old games for which GOG does the value-added repackaging into DOSbox with settings that work on modern Windows. My point was that someone with more capital than an indie-dev could offer the same for Mac or Linux distribution, port the game for a larger cut (especially where there game was written in Unity or similar, and it's mostly a test/support cost rather than a deeper port effort).

Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

Can go FUCK itself.

Re:Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. I'm over it. For a personal OS MS is dead,

Re:Windows 10

[hyades1]

Can go FUCK itself with broken, rusty garden shears.

I could use that snotty "fixed that for you" meme, but I'd have to add, "In a way I think you'd like".

I will not use Windows 10. Well, I might reconsider if somebody figures out how to turn it into a hacked, broken bitch that publishes the private data of the entire Microsoft Board of Directors, the top 100 shareholders, and all of their families.

Re:Windows 10

[The MAZZTer]

This is not Windows 10's fault. The game dev and/or publisher is responsible for this.

Re:Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft could have realized this would end up being horrible PR for them, and said they wouldn't sell the game at all if they couldn't play multiplayer with Steam.

This is just as much Microsoft's fault.

Re:Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

On slashdot everything is Windows 10's fault. Obamacare is actually just a rebranded Windows10care, Climate Change is real but Microsoft shills are trying to suppress it because it's Windows 10's fault.

It includes telemetry that sends data to improve their word prediction and spelling and yes you can turn it off through a simple switch in control panel but apparently this is too hard for users. On the other hand slashdotters lament the dumbing down of computing and advocate for Linux-based desktop OSes (because nobody ever has to configure anything there right?).

I find it really strange, I'm not a religious OS user (I use macOS primarily but use Gentoo for my fileserver, OpenWRT on my router and Windows for gaming and CAD) so I really can't understand how supposedly technically people get all angry and furious rather than just promoting the simple solution. On Windows 10 I just flick that switch off. Everytime I upgrade macOS it asks me to turn on telemetry, I uncheck the box and it's fine, I don't get all angry about it. Apple also now removed the "Apps from anywhere" option in Gatekeeper so you can only do App Store or App Store and Identified Developers, so I have to go into Gatekeeper and approve each outside application individually every time, that's annoying but I'm not going to switch OSes over it. The idea that you should switch OSes because you can't be bothered flicking a switch is ludicrous.

Re:Windows 10

[Nemyst]

Yeah, it's kinda crazy how the entire comments section is idiotic Windows 10 bashing when this is all on Activision and Valve. They're using Steamworks for multiplayer matchmaking, and Steamworks doesn't work if the game isn't sold on Steam (which is why most stores just sell you a Steam key). Microsoft sells the actual game rather than a key, so in order to work on their platform, Activision stripped out Steamworks and implemented another matchmaking solution, segregating both platforms. Since the Microsoft stores sees far fewer sales, the people who bought it there get shafted.

There's a ton of ways this could've been fixed, but there's no reason to blame Microsoft here. The fact that Steam has such a hegemony on PC gaming is not good, and that's just one example of why.

Re:Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

yes you can turn it off through a simple switch in control panel

This has been repeatedly disproven; unless you're using Enterprise, you cannot fully disable the telemetry.

Re:Windows 10

[theArtificial]

The fact that Steam has such a hegemony on PC gaming is not good, and that's just one example of why.

You mean like not limiting their players to a single platform? This argument can be reversed. The fact that Windows 10 limits players to only players of their platform, would absolutely fragment MMOs. Same old Microsoft. The faster that adware platform can be jettisoned the better.

Re:Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

not really, fault lies with the person who buys stuff from the windows store

every single one of this people contributes to the guys at microsoft thinking "boy if only we could turn into apple and have everything depending on the store, think about the massive amounts of money we could make for doing nothing!!!!", and then we get shitty versions like windows 8 and windows 10, were the focus lies elsewere

so people using that part of the operating system and getting screwed deserve it, they make it bad for themselves and for everybody else

Re:Windows 10

[KiloByte]

On slashdot everything is Windows 10's fault. Obamacare is actually just a rebranded Windows10care, [...]

You mean both Hitlary and Drumpf are related to Windows 10? You americans are truly fucked...

Re:Windows 10

[LVSlushdat]

Annnd... Can you be *sure* that once you turn OFF the spy-ware, that MS won't push out an "update" that silently turns it back on? Or how can you even be sure those cutesy-tootsy toggleswitches actually *DO* anything? I used/supported MS products for close to 20 years as a syadmin, but when I retired in 2010, I decided I was *done* with MS. After seeing what a turd Windows 10 is, and how MS took a page out of the malware writers playbook on how to forcefeed Windows 10 onto as many computers as they could, my trust level of MS is non-existant..

Re:Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

This has been repeatedly disproven; unless you're using Enterprise, you cannot fully disable the telemetry.

What "telemetry" are you referring to?

You don't have to send crashdumps, you don't have to send typing, voice or handwriting info, you even can turn off advertising and you won't see suggestions in the start menu or even any targeted ads in their browser (if for some reason you use that instead of a more sensible choice like Chrome). Maybe what you are referring to was in a pre-release before the switch was put in?

Re:Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

Annnd... Can you be *sure* that once you turn OFF the spy-ware, that MS won't push out an "update" that silently turns it back on? Or how can you even be sure those cutesy-tootsy toggleswitches actually *DO* anything?

How can you be sure OSX, iOS, Google Play Services in Android, proprietary drivers or even hardware like we've seen in the remote access features of Intel and AMD CPUs aren't doing the same thing? The answer is that you can't. If you *really* value privacy then you aren't using a computer connected to the internet, even in major open source projects we've seen critical security exploits that have been there for many years.

Re:Windows 10

[Nemyst]

Uh, that's not how it works. Microsoft didn't make the decision to exclude players, Activision/Valve did. If you split a group in half and take one half with you, that doesn't mean the other half is at fault for it.

Re:Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not Windows 10's fault. The game dev and/or publisher is responsible for this.

May be, but winblows 10 can go fuck itself anyway. I have been forced to use a linux based system for 3 months now. Whatever WINE can't handle, VM based windows can using PCI passthrough at about 3-5% performance cost. When I am back, desktop is getting a makeover. No more NTFS, no more dual boot bullshit. Windows will become a very limited environment to run a game or two inside a VM. Not that I expect to even buy windows 10 only games.

Until Microsoft creates a reason not to run Win 10 inside a VM, there is no reason not to run Linux. All it takes is a bit of reading and some getting used to.

Re:Windows 10

[strikethree]

This is not Windows 10's fault. The game dev and/or publisher is responsible for this.

Eh? How is it NOT Windows 10's (Microsoft's) fault? They are the ones who enabled the behaviour to begin with! Sure, we can hate Activision for "taking advantage" of what was offered but what did you expect a publishing company to do? They would kill themselves directly if they thought it would give a penny extra profit... never realizing that they just killed themselves.

Oddly, I am reminded of the situation of the woman wearing provocative clothing and walking down dark alleys... It is clear that the rapist and the rape victim both bear some responsibility for what happens next.

Re:Windows 10

[Agripa]

This is not Windows 10's fault. The game dev and/or publisher is responsible for this.

I am sure Microsoft was all broken up about it.

Re:Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft have *implied* that, but we don't know. It only harms Activision so it makes no sense that they would plan this. My guess is it's a mistake, somebody dropped the ball when releasing on a unfamiliar and untested platform.

Re:Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm on Linux Mint for years now. Migrated even wifey's laptop, and she's happy to be rid of annoying notifications and noisy UI. Win win.

Steam for games.
Chrome for Netflix.
Installing ie. Nvidia drivers is a breeze and mostly things just work today.
Don't feed the trolls.

Captcha: pluses

Games for Windows = FUCK RIGHT OFF

[Anonymous Coward]

We didn't like it then, we don't like that turn re-branded with sprinkles this time either.

Re:Games for Windows = FUCK RIGHT OFF

[Anonymous Coward]

turn = turd but you get the point. I'm just so incensed over Microsoft's inky tendrils worming their way back into the one thing I'm held hostage over (decent PC gaming) that to already gone through this kind of bullshit in the past it makes me want to slap bill gate's puppy to see them try it again and think they'll get away with it.

Heh, noobs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 10 adoptees and Activision game purchasers screwed at the same time?

Oh that's awful!

Re:Heh, noobs.

[Anonymous Coward]

This.
> activision
Into the trash it goes. Right up there on my boycott list with EA and Ubisoft.

Re: Heh, noobs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Haha add anything Microsoft (except SQL server) to your list and its exactly like mine.

reasons unknown??

[Anonymous Coward]

More like for 'known reasons' such as "fuck you."

My Apologies

[freeze128]

If you paid for a PC game, and *DON'T* have a disc in your hand as a result, then you are just a plain old sucker. The app store model only works for smartphones, but PC owners DEMAND more. Tell these companies that you won't stand for crappy practices and limited availability. Tell them by not giving Microsoft's store ONE RED CENT!

Re:My Apologies

[DoofusOfDeath]

If you paid for a PC game, and *DON'T* have a disc in your hand as a result, then you are just a plain old sucker. The app store model only works for smartphones, but PC owners DEMAND more. Tell these companies that you won't stand for crappy practices and limited availability. Tell them by not giving Microsoft's store ONE RED CENT!

I disagree. My use of Steam over the last 7? 8? years has been nothing but a pleasure.

The only downside I've ever had with Steam is that it lets me easily buy games from Sid Meiers, which for me are like a life-ruining crack addiction.

Re:My Apologies

[Anonymous Coward]

Even if it has the entire game on it (which is becoming rare), that disc is still going to activate the game with some online DRM platform, so you still don't own anything. Disc or download, the only way to own a game is to buy DRM free.

Re:My Apologies

[Anonymous Coward]

What would I want a disc for? I can just download it on Steam.

Re:My Apologies

[Yosho]

The app store model only works for smartphones, but PC owners DEMAND more.

Incorrect. Physical sales for PC games have been dead for years. Even if you buy a boxed copy of a game, it will probably just have a Steam code inside. Among developers who release their games for other platforms, it's still common for >90% of a game's sales to be through Steam.

And honestly, it's better that way. I don't need boxes and DVD cases cluttering up my house when I'm going to use them exactly once and then put them away for a few years until the next time I get a new computer and need to reinstall them. Not to mention that it's easy to lose or damage a disc, and for older games it can be very difficult to track down a physical copy that somebody's willing to sell.

Re:My Apologies

[Calydor]

You mean like that one game where the only thing on the DVD was an 8 MB Steam install file?

Re:My Apologies

[Anna Merikin]

While I agree with your conclusions, there is an important fact you ignore: PCs now have less than 50% of the internet market in general, and I suspect smartphones and other devices' share will only grow in future, considering the slowing sales of PC and the increasing penetration of alternate gaming platforms. MS doesn't seem to see a way to stem the flow from computers to other devices, so they are maximizing their profits for the short term.

MS has a habit of showing their hand -- remember when they sold Windows subscriptions to businesses when there were no OS upgrades for years between 2000 and the disaster called Vista?

MS in, is a way, in the same bind they put Sun, et al. in a decade ago: they are now the de facto business platform, and they want to leverage that, even at the expense of their future PC personal software. There is much more cash in selling licenses to businesses than delivering OSes to manufacturers at bulk prices which were sometimes nearly free.

MS is a mature monopoly which does not see any competitors on the horizon -- except for phones and consoles. Otherwise, they would act differently. They know what they''re doing and they expect their PC customers mostly not to care.

Re:My Apologies

[ledow]

Well, how IS the 1990's? Because that's the last time you could reasonably work that way.

And I have to say, much as I dislike the concept, Steam has been flawless for 13+ years for me and I don't buy games any other way any more.

I do claim my games on all platforms (e.g. GOG Connect, Origin etc.) when they allow or I have extra keys from bundles, just to spread them out and give me a game if Steam should ever be down. But I have 1000+ games on Steam and I can't see me stopping absent serious problems.

By comparison, I've never even looked in the Windows Store, I just disable it on all machines (work ones that I manage, and personal) and all my Games For Windows Live games have been retired or stopped working properly. Same for GameSpy and others.

I realise the limitation and I'd love every game to be DRM-free but it's just not practical in this day and age. Steam is the best compromise there is, and it shows.

But the last time a disc touched my PC? Years ago. They're all sitting upstairs and I *re-bought* most of the games I was keeping the discs for on online downloads (like Steam or GOG) just for the convenience factor. I'm probably never going to put those boxed games anywhere ever again and a lot of them are hard to get working nowadays anyway.

So your sentiment is so misguided. Sure, ideally, it would work like that. But it doesn't. That's the simple fact of the matter. And you're 13 years too late to change that. Kids these days don't even understand the concept of a machine that's not on the Internet, programs that don't just download and install at the touch of a button, or things like serial keys. They literally were born AFTER that stuff was dead.

And good luck buying a laptop with a CD drive nowadays, or one with an OS that lets your old games run without you having to do anything.

Re:My Apologies

[smooth wombat]

which for me are like a life-ruining crack addiction.

Yes, trying to overcome the blatant cheating coded into his games does make life difficult.

Re:My Apologies

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, living on the edge!

Re:My Apologies

[exomondo]

If you paid for a PC game, and *DON'T* have a disc in your hand as a result, then you are just a plain old sucker.

Just because you have a disc doesn't mean you own anything, in fact you license the software and that's the way it has worked for decades. So if you think there's a difference between having the game on a physical disc or downloaded to your hard drive then you haven't been paying attention.

The app store model only works for smartphones, but PC owners DEMAND more.

No they don't, the runaway success of platforms like Steam PROVES that.

Re:My Apologies

[Mitreya]

I disagree. My use of Steam over the last 7? 8? years has been nothing but a pleasure.

I believe that's an exception that proves the rule. A standalone game (not from Steam) that comes with a "here's your download code" or a "here's CD with a tiny binary that will attempt to download 100GB of the actual game when clicked" is unacceptable and should be illegal. It requires being online and it will stop working at some arbitrary point in the future (and that's besides issues of being able to resell a download code).

I guess we have to wait until Europe (or some other place with customer protections) will force that issue.

Re:My Apologies

[theArtificial]

there is an important fact you ignore: PCs now have less than 50% of the internet market in general, and I suspect smartphones and other devices' share will only grow in future, considering the slowing sales of PC and the increasing penetration of alternate gaming platforms. MS doesn't seem to see a way to stem the flow from computers to other devices, so they are maximizing their profits for the short term.

50% of a HUGE market which regularly has games at $49+, how many mobile games are people buying at that price? It's like Apple vs Android, there's more droid yet Apple nets 3/4 the profit. Microsoft can't figure out what it's doing - it's getting owned everywhere: lost it's ass with Windows Phone, Windows 10 is lackluster, their last bastions are Office and an attempt at the tablet market.

Re:My Apologies

[thegarbz]

WTF is a disc and where does it go on my Macbook or my Dell or my HP?

Re:My Apologies

[AK Marc]

They try to cross-brand and abuse their monopoly. The problem is they are so bad at it, it doesn't matter. IE exists solely to download Chrome. Now they have "buy on Xbox, use on Windows 10". But with games designed consoles you have to pay console prices on to get the Windows, so it's more a curiosity.

Though Recore surprised me. I played on the PC while the kids were playing something else on the Xbox, and when they got off, I shutdown the PC and opened Recore on the Xbox, and was saved in the same spot. Being able to play a campaign seamless between multiple machines (same or different platform) is nice, if you play on multiple machines.

Re:My Apologies

[AK Marc]

And for all the online platforms, Steam is one of the few that lets you play (almost) anything offline, when Steam is offline. I've tried on Origin and others, and if you were to come home to a fiber cut and have no Internet, you can't get online to "authorise" offline play. While Steam will let you restart in offline mode and play almost any offline game. I haven't tried the Win10 store games. I don't own any yet. But I expect MS to be unforgiving if you are offline.

Re:My Apologies

[blind biker]

I realise the limitation and I'd love every game to be DRM-free but it's just not practical in this day and age.

Tell that to GOG, where all games are in fact DRM-free.

Re:My Apologies

[ArtemaOne]

Agreed. Civ V is the whole reason I have Steam. And now I have hundreds of games, damnit.

Re:My Apologies

[ArtemaOne]

Agreed. I even purchased the original Unreal about a year ago so I never have to put that disc in ever again.

Re:My Apologies

[Anonymous Coward]

Citation needed.

Re:My Apologies

[lgw]

IE exists solely to download Chrome

Not happy with the amount of telemetry Windows 10 has by default? We've got an answer for you! Download Chrome and more than double your keylogging! Chrome: when privacy is for other people.

Re: My Apologies

[Anonymous Coward]

The only problem with stream is that you don't own the game you just purchased. You can only play the game as long as :
  - the company still exist
  - their servers are up and accessible from where you are
  - some f'g copy right dispute or whatever forces you out
  - etc

Heck, i recently played a 15+ old game (day of the tentacle) which is a really funny one. I can't image doing that with a steam copy protected game.

Re: My Apologies

[Anonymous Coward]

Methinks your limited imagination is the problem here.

Re:My Apologies

[DavidRawling]

There's no legal difference that I can see, but there's a significant functional difference.

Want to install that game from floppies on an old machine you built? Go for it. You have the software, you have the media, go go gadget disks!

Want to install that copy of $Game from $DeadPublisher, you have the license but the download server for the "installer" is offline and the publisher's new owner doesn't want you to play the old game, buy the new one this year instead? Tough!

Re: My Apologies

[Yosho]

It sounds like you're not actually very familiar with Steam. There are many >20 year old games on it. Off the top of my head, King's Quest came out in 1984, so there's a 32 year old game.

But your real problem is with DRM, not digital distribution in general. That's a valid concern, but there are mitigating factors there -- it's optional on Steam and many publishers don't actually include DRM in their games, and you can buy from non-Steam retailers like GOG that don't allow DRM at all.

But that's all beside the point that, even if you don't like DRM, physical distribution of PC games is dead. That's not an opinion.

Re:My Apologies

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. I even purchased the original Unreal about a year ago so I never have to put that disc in ever again.

I downloaded an ISO of the game via torrent. Sure it's illegal, but since I had a previously legit purchased copy I was morally sound in my mind, plus I didn't have to pay anything else to get a non-physical version. Don't give me crap about viruses either, being doing this for absolutely ages, so I know all the pitfalls by now.

Re:My Apologies

[dissy]

I still see no functional difference what so ever. Both options in your example are identical.

Publisher takes the servers offline?
Then no you can't download the software from them anymore.
If you have a copy of the downloaded software, you can't activate it because the servers are down, and it is useless.
If you have a copy of the software on disc, you can't activate it because the servers are down, and it is useless.

They look functionally the same to me so far.

In order to get either copy to work, you have to modify the software in a way deemed illegal to do.
But legality aside let's say we go down that path.

I can go to the pirate bay and download the patch to modify the software to run without activation.
That patch will apply to the software you have on disk.
That same patch will apply to the software from the download servers, which will be on the pirate bay included with the patch.

In both cases the software would then work. Again they look functionally the same to me so far.

The only real difference is if you refuse to download anything, including the modification to patch the software to work.
In THAT case, my downloaded software can be fixed with the downloaded patch and will work.
Your software on disk will still require that patch to work, which you refuse to download.

Downloaded version works, disk version does not.

In any realistic situation both versions of the same bits are identical.
Only in an idealistic world where you never download anything is your method of having the software on disk worse off in the end and leave you with non-functional software.

Re: My Apologies

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you're just completely missing the point. 32 year old game availability today is not what he was talking about.

Re:My Apologies

[smallfries]

That would be anybody who has ever played any version of Civ on difficulty higher than Prince, i.e. about 95% of the /. readership...

Re:My Apologies

[ledow]

And half the games on there are pre-1995.

I have dozens of games on GOG. And a thousand on Steam.

I'm not saying there's anything other than market-barriers to doing so, but that's historically proven to be a pipe-dream for anything other than your own products (Witcher, etc.) or old ones that nobody cares about any more because they aren't going to be pirated by the people who want them (most of the GOG catalogue).

Re:My Apologies

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because you have a disc doesn't mean you own anything, in fact you license the software and that's the way it has worked for decades.

In the US, yes. In the EU, if it quacks like a sale, it is a sale.

So if you think there's a difference between having the game on a physical disc or downloaded to your hard drive then you haven't been paying attention.

Again, in the EU, there is. The EULA is null and void in a sale (it is a "contract after the sale", which is illegal), but for a download, it can easily be presented before you pay, and thus be a valid contract.

Note, however, that Steam makes a mistake here. For games with a third party EULA, the EULA is presented at install time, not purchase time, and thus still void. The Steam EULA itself, however, is presented before the sale (and contains exceptions for all the stuff that would not be legal in the EU).

Re:My Apologies

[tepples]

First, to use the single-player, same-screen, or LAN portions of the game during a long Internet outage lasting months or more, such as military deployment. Second, to install a 15 GB game as a subscriber to cellular or satellite Internet with a 10 GB per month data allowance. Third, to use the single-player, same-screen, or LAN portions of the game after its publisher has gone out of business.

Re:My Apologies

[tepples]

PCs now have less than 50% of the internet market in general, and I suspect smartphones and other devices' share will only grow in future

Last I checked, most "smartphones and other devices" had only a flat sheet of glass and an accelerometer as their only input devices, and this setup was highly non-optimal for many game genres. Good luck playing a Mega Man-style game or a Metroidvania on a phone. Among devices with a web browser and a physical keyboard or gamepad, what's the usage share of PCs? And what's the share of "smartphones and other devices" with a USB or Bluetooth gamepad connected?

Re:My Apologies

[tepples]

It's a 120 mm diameter sandwich of polycarbonate and aluminum that goes in the DVD reader attached to your device's USB port. A $40 DVD reader can prove cheaper than overage fees assessed by your ISP for exceeding your Internet access subscription's monthly data transfer allowance.

Re:My Apologies

[strikethree]

Just because you have a disc doesn't mean you own anything, in fact you license the software and that's the way it has worked for decades.

No, no no. That is the paradigm that they want you to believe. I have never believed it for an instant. If I give you money to use something, *I* get to choose how I use it. This "licensing" bullshit is just that, bullshit. Nobody gets to dictate to me how I use something.

Does that mean that I break software that tries to enforce some sort of licensing scheme? Certainly. Do I care if it what I am doing is considered illegal? Not at all. Fuck everyone who thinks they can control me. I am free and independent. I will do what I want. Go ahead society, cage me. I have already won more than you can take. Take your "licensing" paradigm and shove it where the sun does not shine.

Re:My Apologies

[thegarbz]

Monthly data transfer allowance? DVDs? Are you guys stuck in the 90s or something?

Re:My Apologies

[tepples]

Monthly data transfer allowance? [...] Are you guys stuck in the 90s or something?

Many U.S. ISPs do in fact have pricing structures stuck in the 1990s, in particular satellite and cellular ISPs with their 10 GB/mo caps and $5 to $10 per GB overage fees.

Re:My Apologies

[Cederic]

What cheating?

How can a game cheat? It does what it's programmed to do, that's not cheating, that's game design.

Dislike the design, but calling it cheating? Really?

Re:My Apologies

[thegarbz]

I know my post was 40% serious and 60% tears running down my face.

Re:My Apologies

[Anonymous Coward]

If you paid for a PC, and *DON'T* have a DVD drive in the chassis as a result, then you are just a plain old sucker... Or maybe nobody gives a shit about glorified cup-holders and the fragile plastic discs they eat. I wouldn't even have room to store them.

Re:My Apologies

[exomondo]

No, no no. That is the paradigm that they want you to believe. I have never believed it for an instant.

Oh well because you never believed it I guess it mustn't be true then. If I give you money to use something, *I* get to choose how I use it.

This "licensing" bullshit is just that, bullshit.

Well it just isn't, regardless of what you say. Whether it is proprietary software or free software it isn't sold to you, it is licensed to you. I don't know why you fail to understand that, the concept isn't that difficult.

Does that mean that I break software that tries to enforce some sort of licensing scheme? Certainly.

And of course now they are just locking things down and making software "cloud based" so that you no longer even have the software. If you want to go and buy the software (and own it) then go right ahead, but I doubt you could afford it.

To be clear I'm not saying I agree with the paradigm, but I'm not going to pretend I don't understand it just because I don't agree with it and certainly this "cloud" paradigm is one way companies are moving to enforce it.

Re:My Apologies

[exomondo]

So if software licensing is invalid then the GPL for example, is an unenforceable license too. In any case the move away from desktop software to cloud based software and registration and DLCs for gaming is the way of enforcing it, it's happening more and more and you're just blind or incredibly naive if you don't see that.

Re:My Apologies

[exomondo]

Want to install that copy of $Game from $DeadPublisher, you have the license but the download server for the "installer" is offline and the publisher's new owner doesn't want you to play the old game, buy the new one this year instead? Tough!

And you have had your head in the sand and haven't noticed the prevalence of activation servers, 0-day patches and DLCs? That disc you have is next to worthless.

Appiest app ever!

[Anonymous Coward]

Apptivision is simply making sure that only apps can app apps, NOT LUDDITES playing LUDDITE games on LUDDITE Windows!

Apps!

Stop trying to kill Steam

[Anonymous Coward]

Steam is the best gaming/matchmaking platform available. EA Origin and Ubisoft UPlay pale by comparison and yet the are both far better than Windows Store can ever hope to be. Being a premier gaming platform simply isn't in the Windows Store wheelhouse and frankly it never will be. Stop chasing your tail and fucking over gamers in the process.

Re:Stop trying to kill Steam

[meerling]

They all saw the success of Steam and want as big a portion of that pie as they can get. Along those lines they decided that baking their own pie was the best way to do that. Too bad they don't seem to understand that they didn't bake a better pie, and the crowds that make the demand just don't fall over themselves to try something different from what they already know they like.

Ok, to damn many pie references, now I'm hungry. CYA, I'm off to find some food. (Followed by gaming)

"Windows Central" is shill for Ms

[Anonymous Coward]

so be aware of candy coats. Not to be fooled by lack of "r" on name, Windows(r). Independence is not forthcoming.

It's about time.

[Gravis Zero]

The people that continue to support Microsoft's grip on gaming are finally getting what they are supporting: quarantine.

The walled garden....

[Fedora23_Fanboy]

Well there it is, Microsoft's walled UWP garden taking shape...

Not a mystery

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not unknown. Activision uses Steamworks for the multiplayer Steam version of the game, which isn't compatible with non-steam games. If Activision wanted this game to have shared PC multiplayer they should have picked a system that would work with different copies of the game.

very well then

[Anonymous Coward]

let them have their special olympics

There is only one word needed

[smooth wombat]

Suckers

windows store locks out mods and other stuff that

[Joe_Dragon]

windows store locks out mods and other stuff that you get with non sandboxed steam and gog games.

have to pay the fee to use the word olympics

[Joe_Dragon]

You have to pay the fee to use the word olympics

Re:have to pay the fee to use the word olympics

[Z00L00K]

Speshual Olympusch for you then.

Re:have to pay the fee to use the word olympics

[K. S. Kyosuke]

That's retarded.

I hope gamers continue to avoid Windows Store

[iampiti]

If anything to prevent Microsoft from getting more power and making Windows 10 worse and more closed.
In general it's better for power to be distributed among several companies instead of having a few have a lot of power. When software companies do we all know they'll try to lock you into their ecosystems. So in this case I prefer Steam has the majority of gamers into their store instead of Microsoft.
They already have a lot of power over games with Windows and Xbox and if they were to get more they'd only get worse.
Also I must admit I'm mad at Microsoft for what they've turned Windows into

i believe this is on dev more

[arbiter1]

The dev made the choice in the end to lock 2 up seperately. They could setup servers and everything to have both play together but didn't so not completely MS's fault for what in the end was the dev's choice.

How much longer?

[Anonymous Coward]

How much longer are all of you who are still using a Microsoft 'operating system' (in quotes because it's a poor excuse for an OS to start with, but is now more 'malware', 'spyware', 'targeted advertising platform', and 'corporate/government citizen surveillance system' than anything else) going to put up with how much Microsoft Corporation craps all over your rights as a consumer?

Consider the following:

• They force code you didn't ask for and don't really want onto a computer that you own, purchased with your hard-earned money (pre-Windows 10)
  They use unfair tricks and out-and-out subterfuge to get an 'OS' onto the computer you own, purchased with your hard-earned money (so-called 'free upgrade')
  They lobby manufacturers to create hardware platforms, that you have to purchase, that lock out any other OS you might want to run (i.e. 'unsigned' OS's like Linux)
  They include so-called 'telemetry' code, so deeply embedded in their so-called 'OS', that in reality is not only spying on everything you do and relaying that very personally-identifiable information back to them (and who knows who else, like three-letter government agencies)
  They include deeply-embedded code that allows them to remotely examine any part of the filesystem of the computer you own, delete files, and otherwise completely and silently control your computer -- and you can't prevent any of the above, unless you completely disconnect your computer from the Internet
  They have instituted a campaign to annex and otherwise subvert Linux, being the only other OS you could possibly use anymore, so that they can, in the end, own that, too, and doubtlessly insert their spyware, malware, and surveillance software into the Linux, kernel, too
  They are aiming to destroy Apple, or at least Apple's proprietary OS, being the only other commercially-available OS on the market
  Microsoft is, once again, working diligently to create a monopoly on computing devices in general (desktop, laptops, tablets, phones, gaming platforms, etc), which is anti-competitive, which will harm *everyone* in the long run
  They're now working to prevent you from even *playing games* with anyone who is not part of their imperialistic computing empire (if you don't see that this is in line with everything I've outlined above, then YOU ARE IN DENIAL)

Scoff all you want at the above. Exercise your human ability to be in denial all you want. I'm not spreading 'fear, uncertainty, and doubt', here. I'm not some goddamned Internet troll. All the above is documentably true if you go look for all the past proof of it. So I ask you: Why are you still supporting a corporation that doesn't give a rat's ass about your rights as a consumer, your rights as a citizen of the United States, and in some ways your rights as a Human Being? Microsoft continually demonstrates that they don't care about you or what's good for you, they only care about building an empire, destroying the concept of a 'free market', creating a monopoly, at which time they will raise prices and take as much money as they can from you, all the while violating your privacy, and controlling hardware that YOU OWN, taking that control away from YOU, to the point where you don't even have control over what software is running it. Why are you still OK with this? How much longer do you think it'll be, before Microsoft institutes a 'ransomware'-like program (read as: so-called 'subscription' model) for their so-called 'OS' itself -- literally holding the entire computer ransom, every month? WHY ARE YOU PUTTING UP WITH THIS CRAP? If you choose to ignore all the above then you really need to take a step back from yourself and try to view all this objectively.

Re:How much longer?

[Anonymous Coward]

..and, as typical, the paid Microsoft shills use their moderation points to make me look like a troll. Don't fall for this, people, I'm telling you the truth, no matter how uncomfortable it might be.

Re:How much longer?

[LVSlushdat]

Wish I had mod points... This is the most concise description of the monster that is Microsoft I've ever seen... Theres a growing number of us out here that are NOT PUTTING UP WITH THIS CRAP... MS is gonna have a seriously tough time "embracing/extending/extinguishing" Linux.. Oh sure, they could buy the two "big" Linux companies, Redhat and Canonical, but thats just a small piece of what Linux actually *is* ... Somebody's gotta say it "FUCK YOU MICROSOFT!"

Re:How much longer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks. :-) Nice to know that not everyone out there commenting isn't some paid shill astroturfing the living hell out of our 'free speech'.

With the underhanded crap that MS has been shown to be willing to pull on everyone, I wouldn't at all be surprised if they paid lobbyists to convince our technologically ignorant politicians that any and all computer operating systems must be audited and verified to not be 'harmful malware' in any way before being allowed out into the wild, and that (naturally) MS is the only corporation with the expertise and resources to do that -- for a fee, of course -- and that they won't sign the code to allow platforms to boot it unless it's inspected by them. Of course they'd either reject everything they don't have control over, or insist on their malware/spyware being inserted into the code before certifying it. Either that, or I'm sure they'd love it if they could convince Congress that 'for cybersecurity reasons' Windows be the only OS legally allowed in the U.S., and that it be 100% locked down, nothing that they don't certify and sign would be allowed to be executed. Some might think the above is all too far-fetched to ever be real, but if you consider that law enforcement in this country, along with the same technologically ignorant politicians of which I speak, want to completely ruin the effectiveness of encryption technlogy by requiring a 'backdoor' into all of it -- which of course, and ironically, would be a built-in easy-access exploit for enemies of the U.S., and also for criminals with the technical expertise to learn how to access it.

Stories like these.

[Z00L00K]

Stories like these just makes me depressed and realizing that we have a world worse than what's depicted in Max Headroom.

I think that both Aldous Huxley and George Orwell underestimated what we would come to.

Re:Stories like these.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd say that's laying on the hyperbole a little thick.

But then either Clinton or Trump will be our next president - so you may be right after all.

Re:Stories like these.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Oh no, not the Call of Duty 8 Windows 10 lockout! What has the world come to!" FFS, how does this troll have "5, Insightful"...

Putting 2 and 2 together...

[Anonymous Coward]

We are seeing a lot of complaints from Steam & others that Microsoft is trying to force everyone to only buy from their Store via Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. Little changes to Win10 coupled with mandatory updates mean everyone else in the marketplace is stuck playing catchup while things work just fine from the Microsoft store.

A number of companies are freaking out about this. When Microsoft is their only venue, their only marketplace, well Microsoft's chunk of the sale price might go up.

So expect a lot more of this crap trying to make Microsoft look bad. It needs to happen!

LOL. Click bait is click bait.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing from MSFT or UWP, technically or licensing wise prevents cross platform.

This was a decision by Activision.

Re:LOL. Click bait is click bait.

[BenJeremy]

THIS.

Windows Store isn't somehow magically preventing the game from talking to players on other platforms. This was a conscious decision by Activision to do this. Why? I have no idea, but let's simply skewer Microsoft over Activision's choice and not ask them why this was done.

Re:LOL. Click bait is click bait.

[strikethree]

This was a conscious decision by Activision to do this. Why? I have no idea, but let's simply skewer Microsoft over Activision's choice and not ask them why this was done.

No. Nobody gets a free ride on this one. We skewer them both: Microsoft for making a platform that is incompatible and Activision for choosing a customer hostile solution.

That is because of VAC anti cheat I guess

[aepervius]

Steam has it , windows 10 store does not (or refused it).

Re:That is because of VAC anti cheat I guess

[Anonymous Coward]

The PC version of CoD has no anti-cheat technology at all. From either store.

Windows 10 is officially malware

[Chas]

The antivirus industry needs to get together and work at stamping out this malware completely.

Re:Windows 10 is officially malware

[Chas]

Troll eh?

What do you call a piece of software, outside of your control, that performs actions on your system against your will, operates outside your control, modifies your system without permission, steals data, spews unwanted ads at you, etc?

Windows 10 is, BY DEFINITION, malware.

Re:Windows 10 is officially malware

[Ash-Fox]

What do you call a piece of software, outside of your control, that performs actions on your system against your will, operates outside your control, modifies your system without permission, steals data, spews unwanted ads at you, etc?

I use windows 10 and don't have this problem.

Re:Windows 10 is officially malware

[Chas]

What do you call a piece of software, outside of your control, that performs actions on your system against your will, operates outside your control, modifies your system without permission, steals data, spews unwanted ads at you, etc?

I use windows 10 and don't have this problem.

Good for you. Can you, authoritatively, say the same for the millions of other Windows 10 users?

Re:Windows 10 is officially malware

[Ash-Fox]

Can you, authoritatively, say the same for the millions of other Windows 10 users?

I can authoritively say that millions of other Windows 10 users don't know how to use Windows where this is the case.

Handed a gun by EA, uses it to shoot self in foot

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft should never have agreed to this in the first place. What a bad decision to allow this crippled version in their digital store.

Wow

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Okay, now that there's some gawddamn innovation from Redmond!!

Microsoft: "Want to play a game? FUCK YOU, YOU CAN'T HA H A HA HA!"

COD User: "But...why?"

Microsoft: "Because FUCK YOU, THAT'S WHY!!"

Re:windows store locks out mods and other stuff th

[Anonymous Coward]

Steam encrypts game files for many games, you are simply wrong.

Re: What we need (+5, Insightful)

[Anonymous Coward]

We need to round them all up in the middle of the night and put the in trains... concentrate them in some place, perhaps a camp ... and mark them with a badge so we know they are immigrants. - Donald J Trump (immigration policy)

Re:windows store locks out mods and other stuff th

[Joe_Dragon]

http://www.howtogeek.com/24301...

encrypting game files for DRM is one thing but Steam workshop is really good.

Re:windows store locks out mods and other stuff th

[Anonymous Coward]

I've yet to actually find a Steam game which is moddable (supported by the author or not) but Steam protections prevent it from working.

Most (nearly all non-AAA) games in my library will even run without Steam active, you just lose the Steam overlay. Steam just acts as a download manager/updater for 99% of games.

This is Microsoft

[Trogre]

Sounds a lot like what they're doing to Minecraft. You can play the Windows 10 version, but then can't play with anyone else.

STOP LINKING TO VICE

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop lining to vice articles. They are geek/gamer/nerd hating pieces of vile shit. STOP GIVING THEM FUCKING TRAFFIC, YOU IDIOTS.

Worked for a AAA publisher over 10 years ...

[drnb]

If you paid for a PC game, and *DON'T* have a disc in your hand as a result, then you are just a plain old sucker

I worked at a famous AAA publisher for over 10 years. In the early days we joked that the only thing that had to work on the manufactured disc was the installer and patcher, not necessarily the game. Industry wide this joke eventually turned into reality to a large degree, day 1 patches are absolutely planned and necessary.

That said, I download the standalone patchers if available and back them up so that if in another 10 years I feel nostalgic about something I have a chance of installing and patching it to a stable version.

What can I say?

[hyades1]

Once again, Windows 10 users get what they deserve.

Call of Duty

[Anonymous Coward]

This is about Call of Duty. The only game in the entire Steam store that requires buying the game again if you switch from Windows to Mac or the other way around. Who is surprised?

Long distance cost money

[tepples]

When you were a kid, how often did your parents let you use premium phone services, such as long distance and three-way calling?

Fishing expedition for app and driver lists

[tepples]

Even at the most basic telemetry level in Windows 10 home or Pro, Microsoft still sees a list of all applications and device drivers installed on a machine, as well as the IMEI of the aircard if one is installed. This information can be used to incriminate a user if a prosecutor or civil plaintiff gets a judge to approve a subpoena for it. If you want, I can describe more specific hypothetical cases that could arise.

15 GB game on a 10 GB cap

[tepples]

Kids these days don't even understand the concept of a machine that's not on the Internet, programs that don't just download and install at the touch of a button, or things like serial keys.

But they do understand things like "running out of data for the month".

When was offline mode fixed?

[tepples]

Steam is one of the few that lets you play (almost) anything offline, when Steam is offline. I've tried on Origin and others, and if you were to come home to a fiber cut and have no Internet, you can't get online to "authorise" offline play. While Steam will let you restart in offline mode and play almost any offline game.

When Steam first came out years ago, it had that exact same problem of needing to be online in order to go offline. In which year did Valve fix that, so I can tell how many years the other PC paid download platforms are behind Steam?

Re:When was offline mode fixed?

[Anonymous Coward]

A long long time ago.
You only have to go online once with Steam, to verify your login info(and of course to install the game), then it will start in offline mode when required.

Cap

[tepples]

Those disc games that do not require activation, or which allow telephone activation instead of Internet activation, can be installed offline. In addition, even those disc games that do require Internet activation install much more quickly on a slow or capped Internet connection than multi-gigabyte downloadable games because a patch is usually smaller than the entire game.

Nobody made a decision to block anything

[phorm]

Matchmaking on Steam is provided through Steamworks. Steamworks is only available to players on ... Steam. So nobody made an active decision to block other platforms, but rather that activation was too cheap/lazy to provide a distribution-system-independent platform for matchmaking/multiplayer. It's like complaining you can't use Prime for a package ordered through walmart.com.