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Maths Zeroes in on Perfect Cup of Coffee (bbc.com)
One coffee drinker's perfect brew may be another drinker's battery acid. For this reason, and presumably others, mathematicians are zeroing in on the equations behind the taste of drip coffee. From a report on BBC:Composed of over 1,800 chemical components, coffee is one of the most widely consumed drinks in the world. The work by Kevin Moroney at the University of Limerick, William Lee at the University of Portsmouth and others offers a better understanding of the parameters that influence the final product. It had previously been known that grinding beans too finely could result in coffee that is over-extracted and very bitter. On the other hand not grinding them enough can make the end result too watery. "What our work has done is take that [observation] and made it quantitative," said Dr Lee. "So now, rather than just saying: 'I need to make [the grains] a bit bigger,' I can say: 'I want this much coffee coming out of the beans, this is exactly the size [of grain] I should aim for." Dr Lee says he sets his grinder to the largest setting. By doing so, he says: "The grains are a bit larger than you get in the standard grind, which makes the coffee less bitter. Partly because it's adjusting that trade-off between the stuff coming out of the surface and stuff coming out of the interior. When things are larger, you're decreasing the overall surface area of the system. "Also, the water flows more quickly through a coffee bed of large grains, because the water's spending less time in contact with the coffee, helping reduce the amount of extraction too. "If it's bitter, it's because you're increasing the amount of surface area in the grains. Also, when the grains are very small, it's hard for the water to slide between them, so the water is spending a lot more time moving through the grains -- giving it more time for the coffee to go out of solution."
Uhuh, now do the same for types of beans. And types of roasting. And.. And..
Can their "perfect" cup of coffee do this?
I thought not.
Dan Aris
Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.
starbucks french roast, ground fine, filtered water, slow brewing. yammv.
nothing to see here - move along
Why study taste using the worst preparation method? Drip coffee taste awful.
I mostly work from home and I brew a 6 cup pot of coffee almost every day, I put in two scoops (which are roughly equivalent to 1 heaping tablespoon) and it got me thinking about a month ago what the actual coffee to water ratio was supposed to be.
I found this chart (or one like it) https://blackbearcoffee.com/re...
Tried it out and my god, if that's the actual ratio I'm surprised most people can't see through time. I'll stick with my weak brew... if anything to ensure my particles don't vibrate through the fabric of reality
crazy dynamite monkey
You're welcome. :-)
As an avid home cold brewer (24 hour cold brew steel filter, Tim Hortons Coffee) Why does the perfect cup have to be drip xd
Drip coffee is WAY better.
> beans too finely could result in coffee that is over-extracted and very bitter
Except in most of the Mediterranean and middle east, coffee is ground into a powder, mixed with simmering water, and served with the grounds collecting at the bottom of the cup. And it is the most flavourful and least bitter tasting coffee you've ever had. Drip coffee is for wienies.
I like my coffee like I like my women, freshly ground and hard pressed.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
Arguing how to make the "perfect" cup of coffee is like trying to convince the world what makes up the "perfect" soulmate.
If there's anything to be extracted from Starbucks here, it's that "perfect" coffee is as subjective as the justification behind their insane menu options.
Pointless bullshit surveys are pointless. You probably won't even be able to convince a large enough test group to validate the results anyway, and bringing math into the equation is as useless as bringing math into the bedroom.
You've successfully done the exact same thing that food-scientists have been doing for decades! That or the BBC managed to completely miss the point of the original publication.....Just checked. Yeah, BBC didn't get this at ALL. http://epubs.siam.org/doi/abs/...
Coffe is awful. I've had what is considered the best of the best by many, all the way down to the swill for Starbucks. It all taste awful.
Nearly 40, and I've given up on ever drinking it.
I came to say pretty much the same thing. This is completely subjective. :)
Interesting. This is a classic example of Darcy's law (fluid flow in porous media). Coffee is a classic dual-porosity system. First, you have to model the flow through the intra-granular pores in the coffee grounds and the removal of water soluble and hydrophobic compounds (i.e. "oils") from the grain surfaces. Then you also need to model the water imbibition into the grains and the transport of the same compounds to the surface of the grains. What a fun twist on petroleum reservoir simulation. Yeah, I've waited years to geek out on /.
So you grind the coffee medium, and you get more flavor from the exterior? What exterior? The exterior of the ground bits (which were the interior a second ago when you ground them?)
Overextraction? Meaning you get more flavor from those interior bits which would be exterior bits if you ground them more?
I think the summary could be written: Flavor comes out of coffee. I don't want too much flavor, and I don't want too little flavor.
Sheesh, it's a big argument to grind it fine and add a little water to get it how you like.
Whatever method you use to brew coffee, if bitterness is a concern, add a dash of salt (of a pinch in a french press) to smooth out the bitterness, a trick that's been around since ancient Egypt times (because they brewed with brackish water most likely).
Scientific American did a great story on coffee, somewhere between 5 & 8 years ago. It had all this information in it and a lot more besides.
You can make the chemical and physical processes involved objective, but people's response to the result is subjective. And frankly, how much does this "objective" and "mathematical" quantification buy you? Coffee roasters, baristas and vendors have been able to produce reliable products for over a century.
Coffee may be complex and interesting but it is hardly a great mystery.
I actually prefer my Keurig
Tastes like plastic to me.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
You were successful then...
Drip coffee lacks the grit that you get in an espresso. The texture of drip is as boring as tea, it comes out as brown hot water.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
brew a cup that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike coffee
Either a percolator or a moka pot is my preference over drip. I would be interested in finding the ideal parameters for that. Temperature (boiling at my altitude is about the only option), time, grind, etc.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Use a metal filter in the drip maker.
It's still not great, but most of the oils you are missing are trapped by the paper filter more than just 'floating on top'.
There are people who hate the bitter and add paper to press like methods. You can also get wimpy coffee out of a press by cutting the steep time. A 90 second steep and the coffee might as well be decaf.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Coffee and beer are two of the most vile things I've ever tried. I just have no taste for bitterness I guess. At best, I've found a couple of beers that I can tolerate, and one that was actually kind of agreeable, but it had an IBU rating of 17, so that kind of makes sense. I still keep trying though, I'm somewhat convinced that most of my problem is that I don't even know where to start.
Central Ohio Home Theater Installation - The Theater People
is wrong with people who are incapable of using American orthography on an an American site. Oh wait...it's msmash.
Loose leaf tea gets you more texture/sediment than bagged.
15g coffee per cup, 190F water, stir, press. Enjoy. Repeat as desired.
Becauses thats whats friends ares fors!
Why are they making the distinction between the exterior of the grain and interior? The exterior was interior just prior to meeting the grinder... That is silly Math Profs or not.
You are try to find the golden zone
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files...
K-cups
In an age where we're trying to promote reusability and recycling and reduce waste, Your K-cups are a throwback, they're a waste of money, and you have little control over how your coffee is made.
I have a drip coffee maker in it's box in the closet that came with a metal filter. Still inferior to the press method IMNSHO.
Pointless bullshit surveys are pointless.
Are you talking about TFA at all? There was no "survey" here. And, as usual, the media headline exaggerates the research and distorts it. The original paper makes no claim about the "perfect" coffee, only modeling some of the extraction rates and coffee concentration (which they claim is related to "quality" but they don't describe that any further or specify which is "better").
You probably won't even be able to convince a large enough test group to validate the results anyway, and bringing math into the equation is as useless as bringing math into the bedroom.
I already linked the original article above and discussed it a bit. Frankly, this "study" sounds like what would happen if you took a couple beginning grad students in chemical engineering and put them in a room where they were so tired and caffeine deprived they started applying their diffusion models and mass transfer to coffee... and then a math grad student walked in and said, "Hey -- let's not use the numerical approximations... I can do some fancier symbolic stuff and get some cooler equations."
And suddenly you have 10 pages of complex equations to tell you that big grains don't extract as much coffee.
Composed of over 1,800 chemical components, coffee is one of the most widely consumed psychoactive drugs in the world
Who doesn't know that you need to have the right grind size for your brewing method? The physics and chemistry of brewing of course is complex, but from a user standpoint for any given variety of coffee you only have two to four parameters to vary: the size of the grounds, the amount of coffee grounds per cup, (sometimes) the temperature of the water, and (sometimes) the brewing time. Since you judge the results subjectively, you just have to experiment a bit and find what you like.
Now here's something you might not actually know: the consistency of granules in a grind is critical. So much so that the coffee grinder may be the single most important piece of equipment in the process.
To see why, imagine the worst case: one of those whirling blade countertop coffee grinders. They give you a broad range of ground sizes from very fine powder to big chunks of bean. When you expose what comes out of these things to hot water the fine powdery granules over-extract long before the big chunks have contributed anything. So you end up with a cup of what tastes like diluted oven cleaner.
Your best bet is to buy smallish amounts of whole bean coffee at a specialty store and have them grind it for the method you intend to use. If it's an automatic drip machine then you've done everything you can to get the best results; all you have to do is try using a little more or less coffee than recommended.
If you want to try to improve your results, I recommend getting a $29 Aeropress, an electric water kettle and an instant read thermometer. The usual grind is a little finer for Aeropress than drip, but you can use drip grind. If your coffee comes out overextracted, shorten the brew time or adjust the water temperature and see if it approves. If you drink a lot of coffee you'll get really good at making coffee you like, and fast.
Finally I do not recommend buying a coffee grinder unless you're willing to spend over $200 for a conical burr machine. You're much better off using the coffee store's grinder and buying in small quantities than you would be using a cheap grinder. The main advantage of a home grinder is it lets you use a variety of brewing methods. You can grind for an Aeropress for your personal use, a French press for two people, or a big coffee urn for a party. The only decent cheap grinder I know of is those $33 Hario manual grinders, which actually work better than a $250 conical grinder but take over a minute to crank out enough coffee for a single cup.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
depends on how you filter the loose leaf tea. I definitely get almost zero sediment with a high quality whole leaf such as white silver needle tea (Bai Hao Yinzhen White Tea). Tea that is cut or broken would leave more sediment in there, and a pot with a traditional filter would allow some smaller pieces through. I typically brew in a pot with a stainless steel wire filter, and I would not normally pour the sediment into a person's cup.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
You can also get wimpy coffee out of a press by cutting the steep time.
No kidding, that's why I said 8 minutes steep time. Any more than that does you no good, any less than that and you're not getting the most out of the grounds.
There are people who hate the bitter and add paper to press like methods.
Those are people who probably don't really like coffee that much in the first place. They should stick to light roast, or just make tea. Keep in mind the average person doesn't know really good coffee from a hole in the ground, they only notice when it's really, really bad; the average person also drinks a 'coffee-like beverage' that is little more than brown water that someone gently whispered the word 'coffee' at to flavor it. Furthermore the average person thinks the syrupy 'drinks' they sell at Starbucks, that are maybe 10% coffee and 90% sugar and other things are 'coffee'; they're more like 'diabetes precursors'.
depends on how you filter the loose leaf tea.
Depends more on the tea. If you're using fannings or broken leaves, then sure, you'll get sediment. If you're using whole-leaf, not as much, though the tendency for breakage depends on processing and drying.
I definitely get almost zero sediment with a high quality whole leaf such as white silver needle tea (Bai Hao Yinzhen White Tea).
Yeah, when you're using a style of tea that's minimally processed and dried directly (white tea) and specifically hand-plucked for large whole leaves (silver needle), then yeah, you won't get sediment. If you have a more heavily processed whole-leaf tea (e.g., most black teas) that go through a lot more oxidation and other chemical processes before drying, they'll be more fragile, and you'll likely end up with some sediment even from high quality teas unless you're careful to shake off the broken bits before brewing.
Try this http://www.dictionary.com/brow...
Click the little speaker icon next to the word "maths"
It will, as if my magic, pronounce the word for you.
Can we all admit that coffee tastes awful?
Well I can pronounce it just fine, because I have non-British teeth. I'm glad this post went over your head, and that of everyone else who replied. I am sad, however, that America is so set back from this Trump win that moronic illiterate Welchmen have managed to derail the entire thread.
Since a link to the article wasn't provided, I can only surmise that the analysis only looked at particle size and is very incomplete and inconclusive as to best practices. To wit: we have no idea how the authors determined which chemical components are bitter and which are not; Variables that seem to be ignored include water temperature, the source of the coffee, the roast, the quantity of grounds used, the pour rate, and whether the grounds were stirred during brewing. Did they even examine the amount of caffeine extracted under the varying conditions? For people who hate the taste of coffee and only drink it for the caffeine, what are the optimal conditions for extracting the vast majority of the caffeine with few or the best flavor components? How does one quantitate improved flavor?
Except that most people will have certain things they want and others that they don't want. For example you may have a high tolerance for astringency as long as the coffee is strong; or you may not mind burnt notes as long as it has caramelized sweetness. But if you don't handle the coffee carefully you'll get a mish-mash of flavor notes that's bound to have something you don't like: burnt AND watery for example. Those don't normally go together, but it's certainly possible to produce a cup of coffee that expresses both those characteristics.
On the flip side there are certain characteristics that nearly everyone likes. Roasty sweetness; full mouth feel; flavor notes like berry or cocoa; a coffee flavor finish that outlasts the initial acidity or astringency. By handling the coffee in a specific way you can maximize the expression of these popular characteristics. Is such a cup of coffee objectively better? No. You can't tell someone who likes the taste of flat, watery battery acid they're wrong to "under-extract" their coffee. But a cup of coffee that has these characteristics is certainly statistically more pleasing.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
The quote is incorrect. The coffee is moving from the solid particles into the solvent (water). The more time it has contact, the more time it has to go INTO solution (not out of solution -> which would indicate precipitation).
But it's usually just brown water with sediment, not a thick sludge like coffee.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Given: A mathematician is a machine for converting coffee into theorems.
We have now demonstrated: A mathematician is a machine for converting theorems into coffee.
Have gnu, will travel.
The TL;DR of coffee:
Brewing: Use a water with a minimum mineral content of 150-200 ppm (250-300 ppm is my preference).
Espresso: Use R.O. water or distilled water.
As always the bean and roast is part of the interaction as well so your mineral content and roast level are not completely independant.
http://www.thecoffeebrewers.co...
FYI: Starbucks uses purified water for both espresso and drip in order to control for flavor. So when at Starbucks, avoid the drip and get an Americano if you normally prefer dark coffee.
If you're going to be an asshole and render an unpronouncable word like "Maths" in the first place (especially through your crooked British smile), please try to be less of an asshole and don't treat it as though it is singular.
Sincerely,
The rest of the world
Get rid of the twang first, then try to pronounce maths.
Right, but the summary says they are doing the math to figure out how each person should cut their beans.
That is, I like my coffee at strength X, so I should grind the beans to Y granularity.
K-cups
In an age where we're trying to promote reusability and recycling and reduce waste,
They do have the advantage of disguising that my coffee is made with somewhere around 2/3 the 'conventional' mass of grounds. This lets me pretend to like coffee, even if I prefer it weak and watery.
https://youtu.be/YnKJjxF-n6A
I love Chemex pour overs and I like to experiment with different ratio to ground coffee. Check out James O'Rear
"Maths zeroes" you fucking viperheaded cunt.
Everyone knows this... You got pulled in by the clickbait title. Congrats.
Have you ever actually TASTED that foam floating on top? It tastes like motor oil.
try an Aeropress... great coffee
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
Absolutely. I used to work as a barista. You quickly learn the quirks of your regulars. Like the one who wants their milk scalding hot (tastes burnt to me, but whatever). Or the one who likes tepid with gallons of syrups. Or the 1.5 shot person (no more, no less). Or Mr "I'm from the 80s, just give me a layer of foam so thick I can balance a teaspoon of sugar on it" guy. Or my personal favourite: the double-shot decaf lady (because 1 shot of foul tasting decaf just isn't enough to get you up in the morning).
Why waste all the time, money, and materials. God (or the Devil, I'm not sure which) gave us teeth for a reason. Just chew your coffee beans and be done with it.
It's all about balance. Look for Dogfishhead 120 IPA. Three digit IBU rating, and smooth as butter.
Right, but the summary says they are doing the math to figure out how each person should cut their beans.
That is, I like my coffee at strength X, so I should grind the beans to Y granularity.
Gee, that's nice. How quaint. They're going to tell me how I should cut my beans. Should we initiate the flame war on what kind of coffee bean should be used, or are we still chopping heads off over the different methods of brewing?
Coffee taste, strength, brewing style, temperature, bean preference, how many other variables should we add here when it is ALL subjective? Pointless tests are pointless.
Frankly, this "study" sounds like what would happen if you took a couple beginning grad students in chemical engineering and put them in a room where they were so tired and caffeine deprived they started applying their diffusion models and mass transfer to coffee... and then a math grad student walked in and said, "Hey -- let's not use the numerical approximations... I can do some fancier symbolic stuff and get some cooler equations."
Frankly, this sounds like a couple of bean suckers got higher than giraffe pussy one afternoon, and came up with this brain-baked nonsense to waste a few hours.
I was at a clients a couple of years ago and they had an espresso machine. I was so impressed with the ease of use/quality I ordered one. I threw out my drip machine a week or so later as I could not go back. The prices on the machines have come down so while I still view it as a luxury, its not that much of a luxury. I think 500 buys the non-fancy version of the one I got. There are a plethora of models.
Yes, drip coffee soaks up some of those all-important oils but instead you drink press coffee?? Heretic! Persecute the unbeliever!
Press plungers leave far too much fine sediment in your cup. Always tastes dusty to me. The only way to get pure, complete, well-extracted coffee is with a decent espresso machine. With the right grind and tamping you get zero sediment, maximised essential oils, and minimal bitterness. Drink the shot straight, with steamed milk, or even with added water if you really want to dilute your experience, but a shot of espresso is the only way to start.
I never understood why this was still debated in America. In Australia and most of Europe, the question was settled long ago: Espresso, or go back to tea.
You're not supposed to put the cup into your grinder.
This same level of obsession with any other substance would be classified as addiction. Coffee addicts can't function without it and they never shut up about how much coffee they drink and what kind, much like alcoholics...
Then you're doing it completely wrong. The crema on a well-made shot of espresso is there to trap the flavour and prevent it from sublimating away. Done properly, it displays all the rich characteristics of your freshly-ground bean, with light acidity, moderate bitterness, and hints of sweet floral or nutty overtones.
Oh Anon, you're so cool and edgy, when I grow up I want to be just like you! xDDDDD
Press plungers leave far too much fine sediment in your cup.
Funny, I've never had that problem, but then again I grind the beans correctly -- that being, as coarse as possible. Hence the 8 minute steep time when brewing it, to allow proper extraction.
Also, I don't have hundreds of dollars for an espresso machine. A press is the best of all possible worlds, requires no electricity, I can make coffee anywhere, so long as I can get hot water to make it.
...and bringing math into the equation is as useless as bringing math into the bedroom.
[T]he lift and the dwell angle Theta are given. If the profile is treated as a large base circle and a small tip circle, joined by a common tangent, giving lift L, the relationship can be calculated, given the angle Phibetween one tangent and the axis of symmetry ( Phi being Pi / 2 Theta / 2, while C is the distance between the centres of the circles (required), and R is the radius of the base (given) and r that of the tip circle (required)
C = L / ( 1 sin Phi ) and r = R - L sin Phi / ( 1 sin Phi ) .
So f*cking there. Literally.
I'm going to say thanks... This way I get an internet achievement of success and gratitude, which I shall put above my mantle and reminisce about.
No, but apparently you put your tongue on the stove, you taste-insensitive clod.
Gale Boetticher had this figured out years ago, if only we had access to the notes from breaking bad.
To say it properly, you have to whistle it through crooked teeth
Once you go Aeropress, you'll never settle for less
LOL you must be one of 'those' people who think that those huge cups of HFCS, artificial flavoring, milk, and a few drops of weak coffee that they sell at Starbucks is 'coffee'.
Most of my friends don't agree, but I like just one quite bitter & strong cup most every morning.
...western decadence! We have all this wealth and _this_ is what we use it on. Stories like this make it clear that we are doomed.
Quality beans that are properly roasted should never result in bitter coffee, regardless of the grain size. If your coffee is bitter it's because it's poor quality or burnt.
This seems to consider all beans — and all consumers — are equal. Some people feel bitter less than others...
Furthermore the average person thinks the syrupy 'drinks' they sell at Starbucks, that are maybe 10% coffee and 90% sugar and other things are 'coffee'; they're more like 'diabetes precursors'.
Nope, I think they're just sources of portable caffeine. That is, the bottled stuff Starbucks sells.
Coffee used to be one of my 3 major food groups. About 2 months ago I got food poisoning and spent 10 days with diarrhea. After several rounds of tests and delays, I tested positive for blastocystis. The first antibiotic was a joke. I eventually ended up on Metronidazole; another antibiotic but a real kick-ass. Since I got off that (2 wks ago) the smell and taste of coffee is different and frankly, bad. I think whatever made me sick, or maybe the antibiotic, messed up my gut microbiome and altered my sense of taste and smell. Coffee is the most obvious change, but I've also developed a powerful craving for ginger ale. Effing weird.
The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
Umm, instant, drip, plunger debate ???
I'm not convinced anyone reading this thread even knows what a decent coffee tastes like.
The only way to go is a proper espresso made coffee. Now a decent (not toy) one costs something like 3 to 10k so you really need to be into good coffee if you go that route.
After buying a 3k second hand three head espresso machine for the office, and a mate buying a 10k machine for home, I have an appreciation of what a decent cafe grade machine costs.
In my opinion, the way to go at home is to get a nespresso machine. Awesome coffee in a very wide variety of flavours/blends/strengths. And wonderfully it is exactly the same every time.
If you use a cafe espresso machine for a while, you will observe how hard it is to keep consistent. Even how hard you pack the coffee grounds makes a huge difference.
Regarding the question "hasn't anyone looked at the math behind this before" ? I'm pretty sure those guys at Nestle over in Switzerland probably did a huge amount of research before they came out with the nespresso system.
As a long time coffee aficionado, nespresso has been wonderful for me. I've bought 6 machines in 5 countries and regularly get the pods shipped internationally now that I'm off the beaten path - the cost is well worth it.
A mathematician did some calculations on how to make drip coffee somewhat less awful? Who cares?
There has already been some study of espresso, covering variables like water temperature, grind, packing, and pressure, to the point that it is possible to produce reliable high quality coffee using the espresso technique.
Australians like good coffee. I think it's humorous that so far Australia is the only country where Starbucks went bankrupt. There are a lot of places (many / most of them not chains) where you can get good coffee in Australia, most of it espresso.
One of the virtues of the espresso method is that each cup is made fresh - no leaving a jug of coffee on a warming plate to deteriorate into disgusting sludge.
Have you ever just eaten a mouth full of salt? Taking a flavour in isolation to determine if it is a good component of a final product is just utterly stupid.
Soooo.. you don't even drink coffee?
Classic illness-induced food aversion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
I thought we called it Burnbucks, not due to the roast, but to the water being too hot and "burning" the delicate flavors out of the beans.
I always measure my water temp and if it's close to boiling, you've ruined it.
Not on a shot of espresso. The stuff that floats on top of the water in the filter when brewing drip coffee.