Slashdot Mirror


Library Creates Fake Patron Records To Avoid Book-Purging (heraldnet.com)

An anonymous reader writes: Chuck Finley checked out 2,361 books from a Florida library in just nine months, increasing their total circulation by 3.9%. But he doesn't exist. "The fictional character was concocted by two employees at the library, complete with a false address and driver's license number," according to the Orlando Sentinel. The department overseeing the library acknowledges their general rule is "if something isn't circulated in one to two years, it's typically weeded out of circulation." So the fake patron scheme was concocted by a library assistant working with the library's branch supervisor, who "said he wanted to avoid having to later repurchase books purged from the shelf." But according to the newspaper the branch supervisor "said the same thing is being done at other libraries, too."

150 of 258 comments (clear)

  1. Its not a fictional name, just an alias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    His real name is Sam Axe.

  2. Good for them by willoughby · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Displaying initiative and ingenuity in order to work around idiotic managerial policies & decisions. Give 'em a raise!

    1. Re:Good for them by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's a heartwarming tale in the summary, but the article implies that there may have been a somewhat less noble reason for the fake patron (emphasis mine):

      nine city-run libraries that are part of the Lake County library system and receive a percentage of their funding based on circulation levels.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    2. Re:Good for them by dangle · · Score: 1, Insightful

      This is one possibility, but the "That way I wouldn't have to repurchase them again in the future" argument seems pretty weak, given that once most books have their day, circulation drops to zero for years (which is why it does make sense to purge books from smaller libraries). I think the more likely possibility is that it was a scheme to boost circulation numbers to protect their budget, as suggested in TFA.

    3. Re:Good for them by v1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If they were just trying to bolster funding, one would expect that they would inflate checkout rates for more popular titles then so as not to draw suspicion. Despite there being other possible options for "ulterior motive", "looking for a fix to offset a stupid decision by upper management" (or what someone passionately believed was a bad decision) looks like the frontrunner.

      The policy's primary reasoning/justification was probably "clearing shelf space to make room for new books", so ultimately the need for that will end up getting re-examined. That's the risk you take when going behind management's back. You have to be sure that when your actions finally get exposed (and they almost always DO), you not only need to be right, but you need to be show to be unambiguously right. (and sometimes that's not even enough - they're management after all, and just like you they're allowed to make mistakes occasionally) Sometimes managers have a caretaker above them that will shelter them from fallout due to ineptitude, so either it doesn't matter or they don't care if they're wrong.

      So it's difficult to defend what may have been a very well-intentioned act without substantial evidence to show that it was justified or perhaps necessary. I just don't think we have enough evidence at this point. Maybe later.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    4. Re:Good for them by meerling · · Score: 1

      Most databases of people have at least one, if not several, fake entries. They are used as tests and filler. If it were illegal, every company out there would be utterly screwed.

    5. Re:Good for them by meerling · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You may be right, but librarians have a nearly genetic imperative to prevent the loss of any book, even if nobody has read it in centuries.
      It's also a point of professional pride and the loss of books is at odds with their stated goals.
      If you really want to see what it's like, hold a book burning in front of your local library.

    6. Re:Good for them by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      By holding onto clearly unpopular titles (not one checkout in a year or two), they were ensuring that potentially newer and more popular titles had no space in their library. I'm not sure how anyone could believe this was in the best interest of the library.

      I can only think of a few motivations. An arrogant: "We know what's best for you." or "Everything new is crap" attitude, or perhaps purging books simply means more work for the librarians, and so this seemed easier to them. I'm leaning towards the latter explanation, as a kid's book titled "Why Do My Ears Pop?" doesn't exactly seem like high literature worth preserving for all time.

      George Dore, the library’s branch supervisor who was put on administrative leave for his part in the episode, said he wanted to avoid having to later repurchase books purged from the shelf. He said the same thing is being done at other libraries, too.

      And this makes no sense. If the books were not being checked out for years at a time, why would they have to later re-purchase the book?

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    7. Re:Good for them by tsa · · Score: 1

      Even if they were made illegal that would be quite hard to enforce because a well made fake entry is impossible to distinguish from a real one without knowing anything about it beforehand.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    8. Re:Good for them by Mikkeles · · Score: 1

      I often check out old classics and not so popular books (especially poetry and non-fiction) that I'm not interested in (re)reading at the moment just to hopefully achieve this same effect. There are works, even those I don't particularly care for, that should always be available.

      --
      Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
    9. Re:Good for them by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The article does point out a bit later that this particular library didn't participate in that program, so it appear that there wasn't a financial motivation. This was mentioned, as it may be a motivation for OTHER libraries doing the same thing.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    10. Re:Good for them by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ah, of course! It's clearly a plot by the DNC to promote their "fake books." I have a suspicion of what deviltry we'd find in that innocent-sounding "Why Do My Ears Pop?" book:

      Susie: "Hey Mom, why do my ears pop?"

      Mom: "Because Republicans are bad and want to hurt you. What you're feeling is the concentrated evil of failed Republic policies leftover from the Reagan era."

      Susie: *cries*

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    11. Re:Good for them by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      Displaying initiative and ingenuity in order to work around idiotic managerial policies & decisions. Give 'em a raise!

      Sure, it seems pretty harmless for library books, but it's the same kind of "initiative and ingenuity" that causes government budgets to balloon and government services to deteriorate.

      Libraries need to comply with the rules set by the people who provide the money for them. And keeping books around that people don't read means that space isn't available for books that people actually want.

    12. Re: Good for them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      In my town, all but one of the Librarians attend the same church. Every single book related to the Occult, Mysticism, magic, etc. is checked out... to a member of the same Church. The books get checked out once, then slowly accrue late fees for a year or two, until they finally equal the purchase price of the book. Then they get reported as "lost" and the Curch member pays for the copy.
      Then the book is usually not reordered because it was only checked out once and thus has a low circulation score.

      They do it as a way to censor material their Church finds objectional. There's a few things which will always get restocked regardless, but they are willing to pay a few bucks a year to keep people from being able to get it. And they also have a small cleaning supply closet stacked full of books which are listed as "on the shelf" but can never actually be found.

    13. Re:Good for them by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      The test data has last names that start with 'ZZ', duh.

      You'd be surprised how often test data makes it into live systems. You'd also be surprised how many 'reports' are hard coded to filter out all the names starting with 'ZZ'. I surprised nobody has been able to leverage it into a real computer crime.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    14. Re:Good for them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      or "Mein Kampf", signed by D. Trumpf.

      So what are you really trying to say?

    15. Re:Good for them by tsa · · Score: 1

      Not in the database of the museum I work in.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    16. Re:Good for them by johannesg · · Score: 3, Funny

        You'd also be surprised how many 'reports' are hard coded to filter out all the names starting with 'ZZ'. I surprised nobody has been able to leverage it into a real computer crime.

      Crimes committed by people whose name starts with ZZ don't show up in official reports, for some reason.

    17. Re:Good for them by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      Yes and no. There is a need for testing and training for all databases, some organizations create test databases for that, but less imaginative places just insert fake records in the actual database to use for testing and training.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    18. Re:Good for them by lucm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The policy's primary reasoning/justification was probably "clearing shelf space to make room for new books"

      Yes get rid of that Steinbeck crap so there's more room for extra copies of "The Secret" and "Fifty shades of Grey". It's called the Blockbuster Syndrome.

      --
      lucm, indeed.
    19. Re:Good for them by Locke2005 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Damn! That explains why I can't find any ZZ Top in the library CD catalogue!

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    20. Re:Good for them by johannesg · · Score: 1

      Some people see books as the central repository of human knowledge and culture. They believe that books are our history; the thing that will one day resurrect civilisation if we accidentally wipe it out. And also the final thing we leave behind, a form of immortality even as our bodies perish. _That's_ your motivation: they have a deep love and respect for books and don't want them to be destroyed.

      They are the people who lovingly collected a copy of every single book in Skyrim, possibly for each of their mansions just to be safe. They don't play the game for exploring dungeons or exterminating dragons or whatever, they just go around collecting books and building up libraries: https://www.reddit.com/r/skyri...

      Those people come up with schemes for ensuring books remain in the collection, stacking them two rows deep or storing them off-site in a locker they pay for by themselves if that's what it takes. For them books don't need motivation; books are motivation.

    21. Re:Good for them by Locke2005 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "They have control of the public schools"??? You know most schoolbooks are the ones approved in that bastion of liberal thought know as Texas, right?

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    22. Re: Good for them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Every year there is a fifty shades or equivalent. You don't get rid of Steinbeck to make room for Fifty Shades, you get rid of thr past year's Fifty Shade's equivalent.

    23. Re:Good for them by Harlequin80 · · Score: 1

      What is the limit of books that the library is able to carry and are they at / close to that limit? Your whole argument is based on the premise that the library is full and that stopping these books being removed blocked others.

      If the library's total lend rate has dropped dramatically you may be in the situation where there are not enough borrowers to turn over the full catalogue in any reasonable time period. From the TFA they are only lending something in the vicinity of 65000 times a year. Where I live you can take 20 books at a time per person so they are only looking at something like 8-10 people per day.

      According to their online catalogue search they have ~23,000 books. It would be normal to expect the best known blockbusters to be borrowed multiple times in any period so with just a 3 times multiplier on their collection it is very likely that actually quite historically popular books will sit on a shelf for 2 years.

    24. Re:Good for them by Harlequin80 · · Score: 1

      Their online catalogue search - http://catalog.mylakelibrary.o...

    25. Re:Good for them by Harlequin80 · · Score: 1

      Are the library shelves at capacity?

    26. Re:Good for them by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2

      You may be right, but librarians have a nearly genetic imperative to prevent the loss of any book, even if nobody has read it in centuries.

      I think the personal record I have for circulating books is a book that hadn't been checked out in 82 years. It was actually a really useful book which ended up providing a significant discussion in a research article I was writing -- and not just for historical interest.

      Well, that's if you don't count archival sources, some of which probably hadn't been examined in significantly longer periods. But that's another story.

      It's also a point of professional pride and the loss of books is at odds with their stated goals.

      That's not quite true. All librarians who operate small local branches are familiar with periodic weeding. It's expected, and it's a skill that's taught to anyone with library degrees. That said, most librarians probably would prefer to keep books in stock -- even in closed storage stacks -- rather than discard them. But that's not generally feasible to do for long periods except at very large and well-funded university libraries.

    27. Re:Good for them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes get rid of that Steinbeck crap so there's more room for extra copies of "The Secret" and "Fifty shades of Grey". It's called the Blockbuster Syndrome.

      That's not how weeding works. Last years' "blockbusters" are the ones that get weeded out and replaced with this year's "blockbusters."

      Classics will tend to stay around, especially titles that have gone out of print and can't be acquired from other sources via intra-library loan.

      It isn't like librarians aren't actually professionals who have been thoughtfully working this stuff out for centuries.

    28. Re:Good for them by tepples · · Score: 2

      So it isn't because "She's got legs, she knows how to use them." triggered some double amputees?

    29. Re: Good for them by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      You've made a claim for which you've provided no evidence whatsoever, and yet still manage to come out with this sort of petulent response.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    30. Re:Good for them by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Interesting

      By "left wing distortion" you mean science books that discuss evolution and a 4.5 billion years old earth as facts.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    31. Re:Good for them by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's not how weeding works. Last years' "blockbusters" are the ones that get weeded out and replaced with this year's "blockbusters."
      Classics will tend to stay around,

      Unless nobody happens to rent them for a year. Maybe they get them from other sources, like project Gutenberg, so the demand is filled some other way. And then someone comes into the library in the middle of January and tries to check it out, and it's gone, because...

      It isn't like librarians aren't actually professionals who have been thoughtfully working this stuff out for centuries.

      ...sometimes they get subjected to stupid policies that make it harder to do their jobs.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    32. Re:Good for them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Community libraries are not storage vaults. They are living institutions that must keep up with their community's needs.

      If their patrons are getting works from other sources then that's a good thing. The library should focus on the needs that are not otherwise being met.

      Also your metric for weeding out books that haven't been used in just a year is wrong. The typical policy is to discard 80% of books that have not been checked out after 3 years. The other 20% of those books are still kept in circulation if they are notable, like Steinbeck.

      Source: I am a librarian. My mother is a librarian. Her aunt worked her way up to head children's librarian for the state of kansas.

    33. Re:Good for them by mysidia · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Someone will be along to checkout 'It takes a village' any year now. They just know it.

      Why are they using checkouts as the metric to decide on purges, anyways?

      I pull books all the time, mostly non-fiction materials, and read from them, maybe take the notes and record the details I need for later reference for what i'm working on, and then put the book back on the shelf in the same slot I got it from.

      At no point is it necessary to check most of the books out and take it out of the library.....
      I sometimes do that, but it doesn't mean the books I didn't need to check-out were not useful.

      Especially the periodical volumes, which for some reason... we're not allowed to checkout, anyways.

    34. Re:Good for them by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 1

      The test data has last names that start with 'ZZ', duh.

      Great, so it's not OK to say that all Asians are bad drivers and all Mexicans are lazy, but it is OK to say that all people whose last names start with ZZ are test data.

      Signed, Zebediah Zzymurgy.

    35. Re:Good for them by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Especially the periodical volumes, which for some reason... we're not allowed to checkout, anyways.

      Periodicals are easily destroyed by mishandling. Books, even softcovers, can handle quite a bit more of a beating. Also, some periodicals cost more per issue than some hardcovers.

    36. Re:Good for them by johannesg · · Score: 1

      Presumably the people that create an extra test database are not running Oracle, and are therefore free to do so...

    37. Re:Good for them by geekmux · · Score: 1

      Displaying initiative and ingenuity in order to work around idiotic managerial policies & decisions. Give 'em a raise!

      Today it's an "innocent" library creating fake citizens to save books. Tomorrow it's an "innocent" social media network creating fake citizens to destroy your reputation, a company, or voting process.

      Perhaps we should think twice about asking the mayor about handing over the key to these fine upstanding citizens for their "heroic" activity, since rewarding this kind of bullshit can lead to support for other activities.

    38. Re:Good for them by hey! · · Score: 1

      Yes get rid of that Steinbeck crap so there's more room for extra copies of "The Secret" and "Fifty shades of Grey". It's called the Blockbuster Syndrome.

      It's probably worth noting that making blockbusters available does serve a legitimate purpose.

      But libraries have been the target of political attacks in recent years.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    39. Re:Good for them by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      If they aren't, there's something wrong with the library.

    40. Re: Good for them by tchdab1 · · Score: 1

      "...homeless people and poor children who will never have any influence in the world ..."

      Wow. Check your bias at the door please - not having money or a home says nothing about your intelligence, capability, or desire to do good. I mean, look at our 5th avenue hillbilly president, offering an example of the opposite.
      Actually I can't tell if you're tongue-in-cheek or serious.

    41. Re:Good for them by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      In a lot of cases the filler names are deliberately there to check for leaks.

      Atlases and Dictionaries also have these kinds of canary entries. The idea being that if you need to prove copyrught infringement you can point to the fictional entries being copied.

    42. Re:Good for them by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      For the first time in the (large) handful of times I've heard "Skyrim", I'm now intrigued enough to ctually find out what it is that you can collect books in it. [Wikis] It's some sort of dungeons & dragons game? Online, possibly? What the flying fuck has that got to do with book collecting?

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    43. Re:Good for them by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      That's different, a little bogus data to prove people who 'rented 'the list exceeded the license isn't what I'm on about. Fuck those list vendors BTW. If someone hasn't already setup a website so their clients can submit lists and validate them against other copies, they should. Of course it would likely be the vendors themselves, setting their own clients up.

      I was only half joking about the 'ZZ'. Over 30 years, I've run into 3 places that used the 'ZZ' trick, they all had test accounts in the live system (2 had filters on the reports/queries to exclude the ZZs, one just had it all associated with a test op unit/vendors/etc).

      It's a red flag. The _office staff_ are testing the software on the live systems (someone has to do it), IT is falling on it's face. Run away.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    44. Re:Good for them by omnichad · · Score: 1

      libraries that don't exist and were probably stolen (or misplaced) years ago

      That would be quite a feat.

    45. Re: Good for them by Coisiche · · Score: 1

      You're correct but the statement was not about "intelligence, capability, or desire to do good", it was that those people would "never have any influence in the world". There will be intelligent and capable homeless and poor people with a desire to do good but they are extremely unlikely to ever have any influence because they are marginalized and denied opportunity. Yes, some have achieved things despite that background but I have a suspicion that the number who do so has been dropping every year for a while now.

    46. Re:Good for them by dywolf · · Score: 1

      except for the minor detail that the most advanced states and nations of the world with the best performing economies and most satisfied workers trend to the left...

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    47. Re: Good for them by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      When the big Barnes & Noble superstores opened, one of their attractions was that they had depth, not just blockbusters. Their sheer size meant that they could have a lot of different books.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    48. Re:Good for them by Providentia · · Score: 1

      Checkouts are only one of many metrics used to decide on purges (or weeding, to use the library jargon). Other metrics include physical shape, timeliness, format considerations, shelf space, historical value, rarity, cost to replace or update, reviews, outdated content, and much more.

      Public libraries in particular rely heavily on checkouts as weeding metrics because part of their mission is to responsibly use city and state funds to support their communities. If the materials are not being used, it is an indicator that the collection is not meeting the needs of the community, and thereby that the library may be failing its mission.

      As for your habit of using materials in the library and re-shelving them instead of checking them out, many libraries keep "in-house use" statistics that factor into weeding decisions. However, it's only possible to track in-house use of materials if patrons place used materials on the wheeled carts available, rather than re-shelving the items themselves (with [much appreciated] best intentions).

      Lastly, the periodicals (termed Reference in Libraryland) aren't available to checkout because they must be available for the community to refer to. (Periodicals refer to materials that are periodically issued, such as journals, magazines, and journals.) It's likely that multiple patrons will need materials such as encyclopedias and government documents at one time; their usage will correspond with timely events such as assignments and tax season, so it's important that they're available to everyone.

    49. Re:Good for them by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      By "left wing distortion" I mean American history books that spend multiple pages on Harriet Tubman and give no mention at all to some of the early Presidents.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    50. Re:Good for them by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      First they become rich. Then they become left. If they are left first, they never become rich.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    51. Re:Good for them by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      It's common for small town libraries to be so crowded that wheelchairs can't get down the aisles between bookshelves. Some aisles have books stored on the floor because the shelves are full.

      If the library is full now with 20,000 books, what will happen 50 years from now when the library has been buying 300 books a year?

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    52. Re:Good for them by Harlequin80 · · Score: 1

      If that is the case then fair enough. I'm not in the US and all my local libraries are sprawling affairs with what feels like loads of empty space on the shelves. The main one near me doesn't even have bookshelves over 4ft high so you can see the whole place.

      This is what my local library looks like inside - https://www.raeco.com.au/blogs...

      According to its online catalogue its list 65,000 items.

  3. Why purge? by Darinbob · · Score: 3, Informative

    I don't understand why they would purge books? One of the benefits of a good library is that you can get hard to find books, rarely read books, older stuff that people have forgotten about, and so forth.

    1. Re:Why purge? by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      Why call it an purge as that sounds to much like what nazi Germany did to books they wanted to get rid of.

    2. Re:Why purge? by Burdell · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Most likely due to limited space. Libraries aren't infinite, so every new book has to displace an old one.

    3. Re:Why purge? by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      Space is limited. Many public libraries are housed in these tiny buildings. Even moving the books to closed stacks would still require maintenance of that storage space, plus paying people to bring up books from the stacks, and that's often beyond the small budgets of public libraries.

      But these very frequent purges are typical of only public libraries with a very ordinary public. University libraries often purge their general libraries, but only after 5 or 10 years since an album last circulated. Only in university specialist libraries are items always held onto for the long haul even if no interest has been shown in them for some time.

    4. Re:Why purge? by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But this process means they keep new mass market fluff, and not old out of print books.

    5. Re:Why purge? by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      Because libraries became places relatively devoid of books in the late 1980's-2000 when their stock of actual reading material was replaced by books on tape, videos, and computer screens. Libraries have been sort of fucked up except for a place to get children's books ever since.

      Get with the times - if you actually want to read, you can attempt to download their limited online books onto your e-reader of phone through their lousy e-borrowing software (which requires a special client to read - you wouldn't want to be a pirate, would you?). Or do what I do - avoid the place entirely and order stuff I actually want to read to be downloaded to my Kindle.

      --
      That is all.
    6. Re:Why purge? by JBMcB · · Score: 1

      For some libraries, sure, but my local public library is using, maybe, 60% of their shelf space and they still seem to purge tons of books almost monthly. The exception is kids books, which they seem to hold on to forever.

      Around me there is a lot of cheap, empty warehouse space. I think it would be cool for a bunch of library systems to get together and buy one, converting it into a giant set of stacks for "archived" books. Shoot, downtown there is a converted warehouse bookstore that carries more books than any library in the area (and there are some HUGE libraries in the area)

      --
      My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
    7. Re:Why purge? by itsme1234 · · Score: 1

      I remember for sure once I bought a book and didn't have to throw out anything from my library. And I don't have an infinite one. Probably you're referring to buying infinitely many books this year?

    8. Re:Why purge? by DogDude · · Score: 2

      That's sad. I go to the library regularly. I enjoy it. It's one of the unequivocally good things that comes from modern society. It's much better than having to read corporate-approved "books" on a gadget controlled by said corporation.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    9. Re:Why purge? by jrmcferren · · Score: 1

      I know my local library used to sell their old books it isn't like they are tossing them in the dumpster. The money from the sale can also help buy the newer materials that are in demand, be it books, movies (IIRC the local library had and may still have a rental service), or anything else that the public using the library needs.

      --
      sudo mod me up
    10. Re:Why purge? by Calydor · · Score: 1

      Willful ignorance.

      Imagine you have a room. The room's walls can't be expanded. Within this room you put more and more and more books. Eventually there will be no room for more books, even though you don't have infinite books yet.

      That is pretty much what a library is.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    11. Re:Why purge? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Even if storage is free, there's a cost involved in indexing them prior to long-term storage and in retrieval. Even if that were free, if a book hasn't been requested for two years, there's a very good chance that it will never be requested again. If you sell them off, you can typically buy one new book for every 5-10 that you sell. If there's less than a 10% probability of the book being requested again then it's probably better to sell it now and buy a new copy later if there's a spike in demand.

      That said, I do wish libraries would either sell all or none of the books in a series. It's fantastically annoying when they have all except the first one, or books 1, 3, 4 and 5 but not book 2 in a series. And once they've got a hole in the middle, people never make it to the end of the series because they don't want to skip one, so demand goes down for the later ones, so they get rid of those, then eventually get rid of the first one because no one wants to read the first book in a series from a library that doesn't have any of the rest.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    12. Re:Why purge? by meerling · · Score: 1

      Librarians naturally abhor such things, but it is true that the library has limited storage and the managers that make these policies tend not to be librarians, or even give a crap what's important to those below them and thus often make such flaky rulings resulting in the people it affects finding creative ways around them.

    13. Re:Why purge? by tsa · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Most books are corporate approved, or they wouldn't be sold. Only very few people sell their books themselves.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    14. Re:Why purge? by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      It's much better than having to read corporate-approved "books" on a gadget controlled by said corporation.

      I've owned a Kindle for the last three years and it has changed my life as a reader, but I have never bought a single book from Amazon: I just download whatever I want to read from pirate sites. (Often they are in .epub format, but with Calibre it's trivial to automatically convert the book to Kindle format when copying to the device). And no, Amazon is not "controlling my gadget": the moment I unboxed it, I set it in airplane mode, so it has never even connected to a network.

    15. Re:Why purge? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      That was the model of libraries when fewer books were published per year.

      Now they have to balance demand for new books against availability of older books.

      The problem is it creates a cultural amnesia.. a perpetual "now" with less history.

      I think scanning and retaining an electronic copy to release when the copyright goes away would be a better approach.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    16. Re:Why purge? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Interlibrary loan does that sort of thing. If you are looking for an old / obscure book, then more than likely you know what the title is and can search for it. Or the librarian can. Then you can get if from the NY Public Library or some other larger facility. If you are just wandering the shelves looking for some ancient book on Dragons or Runes, the local library is probably not the place for you.

      You need to go to Hogwarts.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    17. Re:Why purge? by tuxgeek · · Score: 1

      Not much difference.
      It's all about money and bean counters now.
      Free access to books and information to the masses is not profitable to some that value money over people.
      Not all can afford computers.

      --
      "Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
    18. Re:Why purge? by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      The problem is that it's not likely copyright will ever go away. For all intents and purposes copyright is being re-engineered as a perpetual entity, so that Walt Disney can still profit from Steamboat Mickey a million years from now.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    19. Re:Why purge? by tuxgeek · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In a more civilized time we would just expand the library.
      Bonds usually are the means to pay for them. The people you elect are the ones you pay to do this stuff.
      This process tends to make for jobs which tends to keep money flowing around an area.
      It's a part of capitalism that seems to have been lost.
      From a more civilized time.

      --
      "Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
    20. Re:Why purge? by SNRatio · · Score: 4, Interesting

      A branch library justifies its expenditure of public funding by being useful to it's community. To a first approximation, If more people check out new mass market fluff than old mass market fluff then recycling older titles is useful. Branch libraries are just that: branches. Almost all have access to state or regional interlibrary loan for rare titles. If the goal is to have older titles onsite so that people browsing will come across them: shuffling the rarer books between branch libraries every so often would be better than trying to have a "complete" collection at each site. Regular users of the library would have new-to-them titles to browse every few months.

    21. Re:Why purge? by Ferretman · · Score: 1

      Libraries purge books on occasion if they aren't being used very much. I personally don't think it's a very good practice myself though those books that are "purged" aren't actually purged as in "burned", nearly always they are sold to the public. I picked some of the more obscure science fiction novels which I'd read in high school which apparently weren't as popular as others; several in fact were hard back first editions which I treasure.

      I think they would be better served to warehouse them somewhere and rotate a percentage of their stock every couple of months myself, but that requires warehouses to store them and trucks to transport them and all kinds of other problems that put a kink in my otherwise fine idea. I suspect there will be less and less of this as digital editions become more and more common.

      Ferret

      --
      Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
    22. Re:Why purge? by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      They make a few bucks selling old books, but you've got to sell a LOT of old books at $0.25 each to buy a single new book! Probably a better strategy would be to put unused books into storage on the off chance that somebody wants them some day, Libraries have an obligation to preserve history, not just to meet the changing demands of current customers!

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    23. Re:Why purge? by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      95% of the volume of a library is empty space. Move the shelves closer together!

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    24. Re:Why purge? by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      Try getting modern taxpayers to support a bond issue to expand the library for the purpose of storing more physical books, at a time when fewer and fewer people are interested in physical books. Try being a politician facing re-election who voted for such bonds. The attack ads would write themselves.

    25. Re:Why purge? by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      The local library is often the only library most people have access to.

    26. Re:Why purge? by martiniturbide · · Score: 2

      There is the problem that old books that can not be sold are being purged (or recycled). I think the best way for the moment is send a copy of each book the Internet Archive Book Drive. They take some time to scan the books, but at least there is a chance for knowledge to be preserved. https://blog.archive.org/2010/...

    27. Re:Why purge? by Solandri · · Score: 1

      The publishing industry needs to be forced to modernize, so we can put ebooks in libraries. Purges due to limited space, copies only being available at other libraries instead of onsite, not having "complete" collections, and lack of funds to maintain books that sit on shelves but are rarely looked at - none of these have been real-world factors since the 1990s. Unless some archaic industry has been deliberately fighting technology which reduces cost and improves ease of distribution.

    28. Re:Why purge? by tepples · · Score: 2

      The Allen County Public Library in Fort Wayne, Indiana, has something similar to this: less frequently accessed books go into more dense storage in the downtown branch's basement, and patrons can request them through the catalog terminal.

    29. Re:Why purge? by tepples · · Score: 1

      Only very few people sell their books themselves.

      But then only very few people are professional authors in the first place. Nowadays, with print on demand services and e-books, it's easier than ever to self-publish. In fact, one e-book that I've bought from an individual author is E-Word: Edenics Digital Dictionary by Isaac Mozeson, a list of false cognates between Hebrew and other languages, as a DRM-free PDF.

    30. Re:Why purge? by tepples · · Score: 1

      The interim extensions in the 1960s, the Copyright Act of 1978, and the Copyright Term Extension Act of 1998 were all part of the same change: phasing in the "life of grandchildren" standard that the rest of the developed world had been using for decades, including an update to reflect increased overall longevity. The Supreme Court recognized this when it upheld the CTEA in Eldred v. Ashcroft, and the opinion of the Court carefully distinguished this from the possibility of "legislative misbehavior" that public domain advocates would come to call "perpetual copyright on the installment plan". But so far, no major industrialized countries other than Mexico have tried to push anything beyond life of grandchildren. So I don't see a possibility for a drastic shift in the rationale underlying international copyright term standards between now and the end of 2023, when U.S. copyright in the works establishing the characters Mickey Mouse and Winnie the Pooh is set to expire under current law.

    31. Re:Why purge? by shanen · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Writing as an aging bibliophile who loves the feel and "process" of reading paper books, I'm still forced to regard this as a kind of Luddite problem. Or maybe I should just describe it as bad economics?

      The value of a library's shelf space is measurable. The old books should not be rendered inaccessible, but their marginal value continues to decline and shelf space needs to be made available for the new stuff that people want to read more. The obvious and rational response is to retire old paper books in favor of electronic versions. Personally I hate ebooks and think Amazon is aggressively creating an ebook monopoly that will destroy the publishing industry, but... It would make much more sense to make the old, long-tail books available instantly in electronic forms.

      There should actually be an equilibrium price here where the 'rental' cost to the library is balanced against the value of the shelf space. For old fogies like me, they should still have an inter-library loan to (slowly) borrow a paper copy. It's not like the old books are going anywhere, eh?

      (As usual, I would have hoped to see previous commenters ahead of me, and as too usual these days, it seems no one goes to the obvious places... I should have searched harder? However, in this case the key terms were obvious and they came up almost entirely dry. The unmoderated comment I'm replying to does mention "ebooks", though the notion of putting "ebooks in libraries" is confusing. This is primarily a problem of permissions exacerbated by the greed and desperation of the publishers. The technology is already there.)

      --
      Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
    32. Re:Why purge? by itsme1234 · · Score: 1

      1. Why would you limit your library to precisely one and the same room if you obviously have the funds to operate it and buy "put more and more and more books" ? Please distinguish between "we need a bigger library" and "we need an infinite library"! There aren't infinitely many books in the world!

      2. "Eventually" is very different from "each time you buy a new book". "Eventually" we might have the books printed on demand (if anybody wants to have a dead-tree version) so it won't make sense to keep piles of them in libraries, except as museum pieces.

    33. Re:Why purge? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Anyone can use a vanity publisher - it's very affordable now that eBooks have cut the distribution cost to almost nothing. They'll publish pretty much anything, no matter how awful.

    34. Re:Why purge? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      And how do you fill in the card catalogue without having to pay someone to update it? If you have a card catalogue, then every book that goes into storage needs a card written about it telling you which box it's in. When you take it out again, someone needs to update the card. If you're packing books into boxes, the time spent updating the cards takes the vast majority of the time (as it does for current inter-library loans: my mother was a librarian and hated this part of the process). In contrast, selling the books just requires piling them up on a table and having someone take money periodically.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    35. Re:Why purge? by geekmux · · Score: 1

      Most likely due to limited space. Libraries aren't infinite, so every new book has to displace an old one.

      Meanwhile, at the Library of Congress...

    36. Re:Why purge? by Oloryn · · Score: 1

      so we can put ebooks in libraries

      Ebooks are already in libraries. The county library here makes ebooks available via Overdrive. I take out ebooks all the time. And Overdrive appears to be fairly widely used.

    37. Re:Why purge? by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      The value of a library's shelf space is measurable. The old books should not be rendered inaccessible, but their marginal value continues to decline and shelf space needs to be made available for the new stuff that people want to read more. The obvious and rational response is to retire old paper books in favor of electronic versions. Personally I hate ebooks and think Amazon is aggressively creating an ebook monopoly that will destroy the publishing industry, but... It would make much more sense to make the old, long-tail books available instantly in electronic forms.

      If copyright wasn't so ridiculously long, "old" books after only a decade or two could end up on public domain sites like Project Gutenberg, to be available to anyone with a computer, which is just about everyone these days. I'd think it would ease a librarian's conscience to know that material was still being provided somewhere, even if it couldn't be at the library.

    38. Re:Why purge? by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      As Tepples notes, it's easier than ever for people to publish their own books. I've done two, myself. The *real* trick is in advertising, or whatever you want to call it to get the book you wrote into the hands of the people who would enjoy it. An improved search/recommendation service might be the most important next step, particularly for niche products. For example, there might be a lot of people out there who would enjoy a humorous fantasy novel that weaves in nods and winks to scores of classic computer RPGs, but how many of those people are out actively looking for that? How will they know that some indie author has just published an enjoyable bit of nostalgia, especially if Amazon thinks it ought to get lumped in with video game guidebooks, rather than original fiction that's got some reference and parody?

      I mean, yeah, some self-serving schlub could go on Slashdot and talk up his own product (The Eight-Bit Bard, by Aaron Rath .... don't shoot me!) but that still only catches the rare Slashdot reader digging deep in comments on a minor article, and don't cater at all to a guy sitting bored, who doesn't even know that what he's really in the mood to read is something like 'Ready Player One' except with less overall pop culture and more focus on RPGs, say.

    39. Re:Why purge? by shanen · · Score: 1

      The perversion of copyright is a different problem, but I absolutely agree with your sentiments. However I doubt that Project Gutenberg could be ramped up to the scale I'm thinking of. Nor would it be good for a private company like the google (of increasing EVIL) or the Amazon (of privacy abuse) to have monopolistic control over such a definitive repository of human knowledge, such as it is.

      I would prefer that the big repository of ebooks be controlled by the librarians and possibly some academics who are sincerely focused on the preservation of the books for future readers. Maybe a bit for their own sake, too.

      --
      Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
    40. Re:Why purge? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      The Americans with Disabilities Act attempts to prohibit shelves so close together that a wheelchair can't fit between them. It only takes a lawyer and one bitter person in a wheelchair to make your plan very costly.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    41. Re:Why purge? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Close to half the traffic in my local library is movies. It's hard enough to justify spending tax dollars on a library as it is, if the patronage falls dramatically the funding will be at risk.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    42. Re: Why purge? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      where does this crazy $10 per square foot per month figure come from?

      Opportunity costs.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  4. Is this felony hacking? by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    Is this felony hacking? or some other felony do to bad laws?

    1. Re:Is this felony hacking? by freeze128 · · Score: 1

      If you're looking for fraud, Florida is a good place to start. They have the highest rate of Medical Fraud, and I wouldn't be surprised if that has flowed over to other industries.

    2. Re:Is this felony hacking? by I75BJC · · Score: 1

      Yes, it is felony hacking according to all I have read and heard about USA Federal Hacking Laws. The prep used the computer system for nefarious purposes. The prep breached the computer system with false data. The prep created a false identity. The prep used the false identity to falsify official records. The prep created false information that affected taxes and the expenditure of tax monies. The prep stole time from the Government. Time that was spent on non-government pursuits and activities. The prep should be sentence to decades of imprisonment as the Federal Laws prescribe! Now, isn't the USA Federal Hacking Law a little (or a lot) silly?

    3. Re:Is this felony hacking? by careysub · · Score: 1

      Umm... perp?

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    4. Re:Is this felony hacking? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      It must be some felony, after all libraries must be emptied and prisons filled. Now look up which other societies in history had those priorities. Opps, sorry, you cannot, _those_ books have been removed....

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    5. Re:Is this felony hacking? by omnichad · · Score: 1

      No, no...certainly prep - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

  5. Intra-library loan after purge? by BoRegardless · · Score: 1

    Seems like that is what goes on when a book is needed.
    Not every library can keep every book forever in paper copies.

    1. Re:Intra-library loan after purge? by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Intra-library loan

      Caller: "The books are coming from inside the library"

      An inter-library loan is a lot more useful.

  6. No props for the Burn Notice reference? by El+Cubano · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I am surprised that nobody has brought it up yet, but Chuck Finley is the alter ego/favorite assumed persona of Sam Axe (played by Bruce Campbell) from Burn Notice. I can't believe that they haven't received props yet for the cool reference. Heck, I am inclined to give them a pass just for the originality of that.

    1. Re:No props for the Burn Notice reference? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Give them a pass?" The entire story is a reference to Fahrenheit 451, so another reference to "Burn Notice" is entirely appropriate. What they did is heroic. Libraries removing unread/unpopular books is akin to electing Donald Trump as president.

    2. Re:No props for the Burn Notice reference? by Isarian · · Score: 1

      If only I had mod points to give you!

    3. Re:No props for the Burn Notice reference? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 2

      Yeah, the notable lack of attribution there (or the skipping of middle attribution, since Sam Axe notes Finley as a baseball player), was odd...jarring even more so because it was a Florida library :)

    4. Re:No props for the Burn Notice reference? by sconeu · · Score: 3, Informative

      Finley played for the Angels from 1986 through 1999.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    5. Re:No props for the Burn Notice reference? by Red_Chaos1 · · Score: 1

      Glad I'm not the only one who recognized the name, and was then annoyed with the lack of recognition/attribution to the actor/character, show, and locale.

    6. Re:No props for the Burn Notice reference? by vannoble · · Score: 1

      He was also married to Tawny Kataen until she beat him up with her stiletto heal and was arrested for domestic assault against her husband in 1997. I am sure the guys in the clubhouse had a fun time with that.

  7. Why you should support these actions by SuperKendall · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Read this horrific story from UC Santa Cruz about 80k books being destroyed or sent elsewhere, it sounds like most from the science library...

    What the purge rules overlook, and this article points out is that a lot of reference books are never checked out - they are looked at, something gleaned from the contents, and then put back where they were without a librarian being involved. As a result some books people did use from year to year are purged. And in this story at least you can't even get a list of what they threw out, because it was "lost"...

    So do whatever you have to do noble librarians to fight the power and the Purge.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Why you should support these actions by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Most libraries don't want you to reshelve books. Too much chance of getting it wrong.

      They know which books are looked at, they could easily scan a barcode when reshelving references.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    2. Re:Why you should support these actions by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Being a direct response is not relevant? Fuckoff AC. Libraries know which reference books they are constantly reshelving.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    3. Re:Why you should support these actions by Calydor · · Score: 2

      So any reference books NOT used by people with manners who know how to put a book back where they took it?

      I'm sorry that my parents and grandparents raised me to clean up after myself. Or that yours didn't.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    4. Re:Why you should support these actions by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      lot of reference books are never checked out - they are looked at

      Seems they need a better tracking system. Whenever a book is put back from browsing, add a mark or tally to a card on the inside cover. Or if they have bar-codes, scan the backs of the entire browse stack before they are put back in order to register browse usage. That would be quicker.

      And, the purge formula perhaps should also factor in cost of replacement. If a book is difficult to (later) purchase, then it should get a lower purge score.

      Thus, add two factors to the purge computations: browse-rate, and cost of replacement. (This is in additional to check-out rate.)

      Of course, better tracking systems are not free; but would be better than relying on human memory, which seems to be what's being described.

    5. Re:Why you should support these actions by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      In Trumpmerica you won't need science. Science is evil and makes people feel bad.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    6. Re:Why you should support these actions by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Many times I have checked out a book that has not been checked out for 2-5 years, sometimes longer. However, I appreciate the librarians keeping those books around, because I am definitely wiser because of it.

      I understand that you need to do something when you run out of space, but hopefully they would go through and get rid of the less valuable books, rather than a blind '2 year' policy.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    7. Re:Why you should support these actions by SNRatio · · Score: 1
      FTA: Yep.

      Like me and many users of libraries, Gildas marks the place from which he takes a book and carefully reshelves it when he is done, saving the library staff reshelving work. The algorithm missed his book and now it is shredded or moldering in a distant storage facility.

      Most academic libraries put up pretty explicit notices saying why patrons shouldn't reshelve the books.

    8. Re:Why you should support these actions by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      So any reference books NOT used by people with manners who know how to put a book back where they took it?

      Many libraries put up signs directing patrons not to reshelve books themselves, instead designating a space at the end of each row of shelves where books are to be left so that library staff do the reshelving.

    9. Re:Why you should support these actions by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      You need to talk to some librarians. _They_ don't want you reshelving books.

      Have you ever been to an actual library? How about searching for a misshelved book? I've seen them get pissed, in a good sized university library a misshelved book might as well be destroyed.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    10. Re:Why you should support these actions by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 5, Interesting
      The most horrifying aspect of your linked story:

      No chance was given to students or faculty to buy the books. Millions of dollars of public property was destroyed. A long-standing and painstakingly collected archive was removed to solve a temporary space problem.

      This sounds like something they wanted to keep quiet because they expected pushback. I've been at many university library booksales over the years where they sell off stuff they want to purge. The library makes a little money, and happy patrons take books home for cheap.

      I still recall with fondness the annual booksale at my local public library when I was a kid. Some of it was purged books from the library, and a lot more were just random donations from the town. For most of the sale, prices were low (maybe $1 for a hardback, $.50 for a paperback), but then for the last hour or two on the last day they'd do $1/bag. You could get a large paper grocery bag full of books for a $1. I must have gone there for 6 or 7 years and walked away with multiple bags of books... stuff that was mostly obscure non-fiction that I'd never think of looking for (and which was mostly too obscure for the small local library to stock). Sure, I myself would purge a lot of those books within a year or two of purchase too, but I still own some of those books today... including some that contain info that's still hard to find on the internet.

      It's unfathomable that a major university library would simply throw away so many books without even offering them to someone. To me, the only reasonable explanation is that the administrators who made the decision wanted to do it "quietly," because I'm sure the librarians wouldn't just want tens of thousands of books destroyed without at least offering them to faculty or students.

    11. Re:Why you should support these actions by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      I totally agree; that was the worst part to me also. Thank you for highlighting it.

      Where I live the public libraries have book sales all the time, just as you described... I always assumed university libraries would do the same thing. But they operate in a different world...

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    12. Re:Why you should support these actions by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I've seen them get pissed, in a good sized university library a misshelved book might as well be destroyed.

      So when are they going to start slipping RFID tags into all the books (and attaching them to the ends of the rows) so that they can be cataloged by simply walking up and down the stacks? All the books already get stuff stuck into them, and the cost of the tags will be negligible compared to the cost of everything else that happens to them.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    13. Re:Why you should support these actions by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      RFID to track information? Anything involving libraries quickly become ludicrous because they have become just another excuse for government jobs

    14. Re:Why you should support these actions by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      So when are they going to start slipping RFID tags into all the books

      A lot of libraries have had that for over a decade now.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    15. Re:Why you should support these actions by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      As clarification - RFID is happening. But automated scanning equipment needs specialized shelves.. it's not as easy as waving a hand scanner.

      I would imagine you'd have to walk down the rows as many times as there are shelves, but I don't see why you'd need special shelves. Perhaps you could put scanners on each book cart, and scan every time they moved around?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    16. Re:Why you should support these actions by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      One possible reason for weeding science libraries more than others is that science books become obsolete. Take a decent novel from the mid-1800s: it's probably still readable and enjoyable. Take a decent science book from the 1850s: it's probably of historical interest only. Science books become obsolete much faster than other books.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  8. Hard to believe by g01d4 · · Score: 1

    he wanted to avoid having to later repurchase books purged from the shelf

    I volunteer at our local library's used bookstore where some of our donations are withdrawals. I guess the obvious question is why would they be repurchased if they weren't circulating in the first place? What's also left out of TFS is that library circulation is often used as a metric for a branch's success, as market share is for internet startups (that don't necessarily generate profit). The excuse looks more like a fig leaf to promote the branch supervisor.

    TFS does touch upon a more general discussion about what books the local branch should stock, or whether there even should be local branches in the day of Amazon and Netflix. Gaming circulation certainly doesn't help the cause for keeping local branches.

    Finally, low circulation doesn't (or shouldn't) automatically point to withdrawal and books are withdrawn if they become 'damaged'. Typically issues develop with the bindings as book drops literally are, and they ain't a binding them like they used to. One of our group used to repair bindings to keep the books in circulation longer.

  9. Re:Why not digitize? by CRCulver · · Score: 1

    Scanning is fast these days with the scanning function on photocopiers. It's not like in the old days when you had to rely on slow flatbed scanners. I scan several dozen books each year (when I visit other specialist libraries that have resources missing from my own), and a book of some 300 pages can be scanned in greyscale in 600 DPI in less than 20 minutes. Sometimes it can take longer to process the scanned images into a nice PDF suitable for upload to an ebook filesharing community than it actually took to scan the book.

    That said, obviously no public library is going to go to all this trouble even if things have got faster. This would rightly be left to publishers or to specialist archival teams working on a grant.

  10. Weeding is a Critical Part of Healthy Libraries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Sorry, but no. As someone with multiple librarians in the family, I can say you are straight up incorrect.

    Weeding is not only normal, it is a very important part of collection management.

    Watch this presentation on weeding from the American Library Association, or at least read the slides.

    Or if the ALA's word isn't good enough for you, read these comments from a hundred or so working librarians.

    Of course librarians will make poor decisions when weeding. Making mistakes comes with the territory of being human. But as a general principle, weeding is critical to maintaining a useful library that serves the needs of an ever-changing community.

  11. Re:Why not digitize? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    Scanning is fast and easy, if you are willing to destroy the book binding so it will autofeed. There exist robotic page turners, but just cutting the book apart and tossing it into the hopper is much more common.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  12. Re: Books are read by decadent liberals by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

    The poster's lack of a well-defined sense of reality is the greater problem. The only other people I've seen with a bigger persecution complex than your modern day Alt-right type are the "War on Christmas" kooks you find hanging out in Evangelical or Conservative Catholic forums.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  13. Remember these are science books by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Most libraries don't want you to reshelve books. Too much chance of getting it wrong.

    Sure if it's some trash fiction book I could see that being an issue.

    But this was in the science library. The hole in the shelf the book came from would still be there later, and the person putting it back would probably correct the numerical order of several books to be more properly sequenced after he or she re-shelved it!

    Not to mention the patrons are just trying to help the library staff out, not realizing how many tomes of wisdom they were putting in peril.

    What want to know is why on earth ANY library would choose to destroy books without looking at resale value... around here we have library sales all the time, most have a rare books section which charge more, but even the trash books like a Photoshop guide from 2000 is there for sale. Sure, after that point if no-one wants it get rid of it... but this instant "purge" thing smacks of something really underhanded going on.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  14. A better question is why by melted · · Score: 1

    A better question is why do we still have mostly paper based libraries. Some books (a small minority) can't be digitized, sure, keep paper copies for those. But the rest can and should be digitized. You can then dramatically reduce the cost of staff and facilities, and make the service more convenient. What's not to like?

    1. Re:A better question is why by ShaunC · · Score: 1

      What's not to like?

      Digital books and e-readers, that's what. I want a book I can hold, feel, smell, turn the pages. A book doesn't need to be charged, it doesn't come encumbered by DRM, there's no glare reflecting back off its pages. And my eyes are compatible with every book, I don't need to worry about what format it's in and whether or not it works with my specific pair of ocular devices.

      --
      Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
    2. Re:A better question is why by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      A book doesn't need to be charged, it doesn't come encumbered by DRM, there's no glare reflecting back off its pages.

      But it does take up quite a bit of real estate compared to a digital copy. You can fit the whole library into the space of one small book. It's really pathetic that every book isn't available digitally. What year is it?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  15. Re:Are Mp3s ripped from llibrary's cd's legal to o by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    Tiny collection, nobody will care.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  16. An age-old argument by mschuyler · · Score: 1

    Should public libraries be repositories like museums and "save" old books pretty much no one wants to read? Or should they be modern collections of contemporary material people do want to read? It is a sound management practice for a library to have a policy that books not checked out in one or two years ought to be candidates for replacement. That doesn't mean EVERY book so classified will be purged. Nobody is going to throw away the last copy of "Tom Sawyer." But particularly in a "branch" library which is part of a library SYSTEM that has many branches and very likely a "central" library where "last copies" are stored, it makes infinite sense to keep branch collections fresh.

    What we have here is a clear case of insubordination by a Branch Librarian who has decided in his or her infinite wisdom that his or her judgment is superior to the overall library policy. Her excuse is that "other libraries do it, too." without any proof of that. But I can verify that it does happen. I worked in public libraries for forty years (most of it in IT) and I know we FIRED one librarian who had that attitude (for that and a lot more) because her acquisitive OCD tendencies drove everyone else crazy to the point that the branch and staff morale suffered.

    Libraries have a hard-enough time staying relevant in a world where people believe Google substitutes for a good research librarian. Even considering the Library is just about the only public place with hundreds of computers for the public to use, free databases that otherwise charge, and even classes for the public to teach them the basics, it's still difficult. Yet around the entire country circulation is at record levels because the general public still sees the library as important to their daily lives and an excellent value for money spent. You don't get there by being a collection of old, musty books no one wants to read.

    --
    How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
  17. Re:Are Mp3s ripped from llibrary's cd's legal to o by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    My collection is 50k folders. Some of the folders are box sets with 6 CDs but most are 1s and 2s.

    There is a cash value trigger that can really leave you screwed, but you're right, just pass them around on portable drives and nobody will ever know.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  18. Money by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    We've been cutting funding to public services for 30 years. It's catching up in more ways than one. If you've been voting for all that "Austerity" this is what that actually means.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  19. This policy is stupid by gweihir · · Score: 1

    It is not the primary task of a library to cater to the current fickle tastes of its patrons. Sure, this can be a secondary consideration, but the primary one is to have a wide selection available for people to discover things in the first place. I don't know how many hours I have spent as a teenager pulling books at random from shelves in a library and finding quite a few of them interesting.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  20. Same thing being done at other libraries. by Chas · · Score: 1

    GOOD!

    Libraries are supposed to be about KEEPING and CURATING books.

    This is why these circulation/purge rules are such idiocy.

    Especially with library budgets shrinking year over year...

    There's GOT to be a better system than "It hasn't been checked out in a while, sell it or throw it away!".

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
    1. Re:Same thing being done at other libraries. by martiniturbide · · Score: 1

      I also think that the best way to preserve a book is to also to digitize it. The open library has a great idea for copyrighted books, they scan the books they own, the books is stored in a container and they share it online only one person at the time and can not be copied. If the person don't return the digital book, the system just check it in automatically after some days. Check http://www.openlibrary.org/ and Internet Archive.

    2. Re:Same thing being done at other libraries. by itsme1234 · · Score: 1

      You can't just scan books and then distribute them electronically even if you try to make it with DRM and to keep "only one copy out". That is without explicit permission from the copyright owner for each [version, translation of each] book. I mean you can but in any place in the "civilized" country you'll get sued into bankruptcy (with or without the nice boys with guns and handcuffs breaking your door at 3AM first).

  21. Personal records by sir-gold · · Score: 1

    I find it interesting that they saved all the customer data showing who has borrowed each book, even after the books had been returned, instead of just saving the anonymous borrowing statistics for each book.

    I asked at my local library about this many years ago (I wanted to know how many books I had borrowed over the years), and was told that their system intentionally didn't store historical customer data, out of fear that someone's borrowing record could later be used against them somehow.

    Libraries should be tracking books, not customers.

  22. Scan it all by Razed+By+TV · · Score: 1

    Lets just scan everything and let people borrow e-readers if they want to take something home. (If they don't already have one of their own.)
    Scanned copies of reference materials could be maintained as well.
    Why wouldn't we want it all in a digital format?

    I do appreciate that with reference materials, it would be more convenient to be able to have 5 things opened at once.

  23. Seems like a needless step... by Timothy2.0 · · Score: 1

    These individuals have access to what books aren't being checked out. They know the retention/purge policy. Why not just check these books out under their own names and avoid the purge?

  24. Names, I want names by eric_harris_76 · · Score: 1

    Specifically, I want names at the St. Louis County Library. A lot of important books get weeded out to make sure there is room for a buzillion copies of the latest Lee Child novel and Star Wars/Trek movie, and such.

    If I had a name or two at the StLCoLib, I could given them recommendations for "keepers".

    Yeah, I like Lee Child novels and popular movies, and check them out. But having one less copy of "Night School" and one more copy of a book like one of Heinlein's "juveniles" (especially if there are zero now) is a pretty damn good trade-off, IMO. Better to still have a copy of David Friedman's "The Machinery of Freedom" and one fewer copies of that Karl Marx biography (in the "Juveniles" collection, no less!), because Friedman's ideas are on the way in, and Marx's are on the way out. Neither is moving fast enough, IMO.

    And of course, Get off my lawn!

    --
    There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.